What is aging?

Hello and welcome to Technically Speaking, where scientists and engineers come together to chat about a common interest, share knowledge and satisfy some curiosity. I'm Ellie and I'm joined by Jasmine and Emma to talk about ageing and longevity. So Emma and Jasmine, this was your idea. Why did you want to discuss this in the first place? Emma, we'll start with you. Yeah, so I kind of was approaching...

I don't know, reading a lot of stuff about aging at my ripe old age of 24. But more from... a biology perspective so I bought a book myself and then I got gifted another book about like the biology of aging and you know what factors kind of influence it And so I think I was heavily inspired to be a part of this discussion from a book called The Telomere Effect by Elizabeth Blackburn and Alyssa Epple. I'm sure we'll put the details.

in the description and it really is an incredible book it's like um actually elizabeth blackburn when i was googling about her she won the 2009 nobel prize in physiology and medicine for her research um and the book came out in 2017 so a lot of the facts that i'm gonna kind of talk about basically from this book kind of um but i just thought it was really cool to kind of um think about aging you know in a way

I think in society, we're always like aging is when you have wrinkles, but it's really cool to see it from a DNA perspective that, you know, aging is when these things called telomeres, which are basically. caps to your chromosomes and they describe it as like shoelace caps so they're protecting the ends of your chromosomes so when they shorten they're more likely to fray for example um and so

You know, they would describe aging as your telomeres shortening, but you can actually also make them longer if, you know, you live a very relaxed lifestyle and some other things. So it's just a really interesting perspective on, I think, how scientists versus... non-scientist view aging um so it's what was really cool yeah really cool it was really clever to think about something you can't even see uh being responsible for all like physical changes

and genetic changes as well i guess jasmine what about you what's your interest in this it's just general interest so i always see like adverts for things that promote anti-aging especially with like um these face creams that do things that prevent damage to dna but more recently i've been watching uh only murders in the building and in this season they have

character who's based on I think it's a combination of Steve Jobs but also the millionaire who's obsessed with longevity and anti-aging Brian Johnson And yeah, they just have reference, they just like talk about longevity. And there's also some stuff around like people trying to guess how old this guy is. Because like he could be really old, but he doesn't look so old. So yeah, what are his secrets?

Virus secrets. That's so interesting because I am notoriously terrible at being like, oh, I reckon that person's about 25, 55, 35. I've got no benchmarks in my head of what someone should look like. at any age and therefore I can do maybe ballpark but my ballpark might be like 10 years wide everyone is aged between 0 and 100 pretty often pretty often that is the case

So Emma, let's go back to your telomeres book. This sounds really interesting. What else can you tell us? Hopefully I can tell you loads. But on the context of, you know, you mentioned you can't really tell people's age. This book kind of gets you to think like. Can you tell the difference between a relaxed 60 year old and a stressed 40 year old is like the more like harder definition. And so.

Yep. Telomies essentially are repeats of a DNA sequence that go at the ends of your chromosomes and they kind of protect them. And so whenever you have your cell division happening, which is happening all the time, especially in things like stem cells. These telomeres actually shorten with like almost every division. And so it feels a bit scary. And there's like a fun fact or maybe not so fun that we start off with around.

I think 100,000 base pair length telomeres. And then when you're 65, you have around 4,800. So massive drop off and feels very like, ah, what's going to happen? Because the idea is that, you know, if you have these less less of these protective things and, you know, more things could potentially go wrong. It's not like a direct consequence, but they actually can grow back with time, which I think is really cool.

based on how you kind of live your life. I was just going to ask you, because I was like, if they're getting shorter all the time, is there anything I can do? Can I slow down the process? But if I can grow them back, that's very encouraging. I'll be eating a lot of whatever I need to eat to regrow my telomeres. yeah exactly um

And they're kind of like the overall message of the book, which I think is really cool, is like the only way to actually grow them back is to live like a healthy, positive and stress free lifestyle, which I think is super inspiring. And they did.

There's studies on like, they measured like the telomeres of, you know, different people. And they found that like divorced couples have shorter telomeres than people in like happy relationships. Wow. So it's like every aspect of your life can kind of affect them. And you can actually like you get inherited, you inherit your parents' telomeres as well. So if they've lived really stressful lives, you will have shorter ones initially. And then, you know.

That is mind-blowing to me. You're a baby, how stressed are you really? But you could have short telomeres without even knowing it from your parents. Yeah.

And there's an enzyme called telomerase which builds them back up again. And so I think loads of the kind of factors you have in your life to build them back help support the function of this enzyme. So there is something that is actively working to... grow them and make things better um but it was really interesting for me from a concept of like you know what is aging

And I feel like it'd be good to hear all the people's opinions because we always kind of think aging is, you know, gray hair and wrinkles. But this book kind of makes you think about it as like, it's when ourselves kind of stop.

dividing but they're alive because and they can't keep on dividing because of the telomere length kind of thing so um I just thought it was really and I work a lot with DNA so it's but I don't do anything basically around this kind of region um so I think it's really cool to see

that we can actually have a huge effect on our DNA just from our lifestyle choices. Yeah. I wonder if there's like a cutoff because you said we start with like 100,000 and then we go down way down. Is it like if you suddenly get below 2,000?

telomeres are you you know you're for the chop you've got you're on your deathbed that would be scary if there was but it feels like it's a thing you can constantly keep on changing and um there's like um the reason why stem cells which you know, these cells that can kind of divide into loads of different things and we really need them as...

to survive um they have a lot of telomerase to keep the cells actually dividing freshly so it's directly linked um although i'm sure there's lots of different factors which always contribute to many different things with health but um And it's also not to say that, you know, if you have short telomeres, you'll die. And if you have long ones, you'll live forever. But just more that it's like a preventative, you know, the safer your DNA is then, you know.

the less likely you are to get possibly different cancers. Although if your cells are dividing too much, that's obviously also a problem. So I think it's a weird in-between. But I found it really, really interesting. Yeah, it is super interesting.

it's also interesting what you say is like aging we think oh you know you get older every year eventually get gray hair you get more wrinkles maybe you become less mobile but there's a study uh that was published in nature i think and It says that you don't actually age linearly. I can't speak. You know what I mean? You don't age as though you would the same amount each year. And it actually said that they are...

What happens is you have substantial periods of dysregulation, which sounds terrifying. And these typically occur when you're 44 and 60 years of chronological age. But obviously, everybody is a little bit different. And this was just on 108 participants who were between 25 and 75. But yeah, it absolutely mind blows me. that we could have like significant jumps that you could be a really you know youthful looking 43 year old and then get to your 45th birthday and look absolutely haggard

But it is really interesting and it sort of demonstrates like risks of age-related diseases and stuff. Like sometimes in the UK you get tested for things once you pass a certain threshold or a certain birthday. But maybe this is why it's because there's different molecular and biological pathways involved in these changes and makes you jump. Yeah, because as you age, especially with humans,

And also with other species, you're more prone to cancer and other, they say age-related diseases, but I'm not entirely sure what that encompasses. I guess it's like... Because some diseases... You can just get it at any point, depending on your lifestyle, like diabetes and heart disease. Yeah, I guess Alzheimer's maybe is what people would consider. Yeah, Alzheimer's, yeah. But there's also premature Alzheimer's, but they're not entirely sure what causes that. Yeah.

Alzheimer's is a really interesting one because it sort of goes in waves of research. And sometimes they were really focusing for a long time on like plaque buildup in your brain. I don't know if that's still the case, but that sort of happens as you get older anyway. which could be related to getting Alzheimer's. But I guess in theory it could happen to someone much younger. Yeah.

And they're still not entirely 100% certain whether or not Alzheimer's is something that's genetic or whether it's something that's more environmental. Because there is a gene that makes you more susceptible to developing Alzheimer's and dementia, but it doesn't mean you're going to get it. Can I come in and say a quote that perfectly fits that argument? It was in the book, but it's by an obesity researcher called George Bray that says genes load the gun and the environment pulls the trigger.

I like that a lot. Which I think is great. It's a good one. I mean, it's kind of like all those really unethical experiments they did on twins and triplets. Like that. triplet who they were like separated at birth because there was like a scientist who was like I want to see what the impacts are of nature versus nature nurture versus nature

That was really twisted. It is really twisted, but it's also fascinating. I'm not advocating that we do this, but to have genetically identical individuals and then see what they're exposed to and how it makes them different is really interesting. Quite a lot of medical studies, they do use twins because it is like a really great way of testing like what is genetics and what is nurture. Yeah, and also because often, well, most twins are raised in the same environment, right?

it should be very similar and often they're still obviously very individual different people so yeah that's very cool yeah there's always interesting where you've got one twin who's really fit and healthy and but And they'll raise the same as their other twin, but that twin's, like, obese. Well, I guess so, but you'd think then it would be, like, genetic racist, but they have the same genes. Yeah.

That was what happened with the Van Tilken twins because I can't remember which one's which but one was obese or quite overweight as a child and the other one wasn't. And I think the one that was overweight was called Hero Disgrace to Jeans. It's horrible. At least that's what he quoted in a documentary on one of those TV shows that he did. Oh my goodness. Wow. That's insane.

I was going to say, I think it is interesting to, with these like twin studies, people are always kind of comparing different genetics. I think it is really interesting to look to nature and see kind of... different animals and how they actually or how they age and how they do things differently because you know mammals all kind of very similar genetically we kind of all especially us with like apes who come very similar parts from different phylogenetic trees

But there is cases of animals that don't age and I actually found the animal I was looking for in the planning session and it is a Galapagos tortoise.

doesn't show any signs of aging in the sense and what they're defining here is the cells can't keep on dividing at the same rate there's no like slowing down there's no like if they were human there would be no wrinkles there would be no whatever um but they just exhibit this behavior and i think there's quite a few examples i think of animals that don't really seem to

age but do they but they do age in the sense that they still develop like ailments that are like highly associated with aging like arthritis and loss of hearing or sight

I think, I mean, some animals I genuinely think don't. So one of the studies that I think also inspired this conversation was the BBC recently did like an article about it, but it was an article about... naked mole rats, which essentially don't develop any of these age-related diseases that we talked about, like Alzheimer's or different kind of heart diseases. And so they were looking into the genetics of actually, how is that happening?

is there a way that us humans can kind of i don't know not like alter our dna because that's kind of impossible but can we take what they're doing and figure out if it can apply to us in a way so i think i think it's something we're still learning a lot about though like no one ever knows all the animals in the world and how they actually behave and live their lives. Yeah, the naked roll rats are a freaky little corner of ecology.

because they live underground, they live in these family groups, and they have a super long lifespan anyway. It's like over 30 years, which is super unusual for a rodent.

And yeah, they don't get cancer. It's like one of the extra weird things about them, as well as the fact that they barely have any fur. But yeah, this study that's just come out is really interesting because we have the same... It's called C... gas uh which i think is a is it an enzyme yeah uh we have it in humans but it doesn't do the same thing that it does to us in naked mole mats which is so interesting

What does it do in us? And what does it do in naked mole rats? So in us, it inhibits DNA repair. But then in naked mole rats... it allows it to enhance DNA repair. What's the benefit in humans for it to not enhance DNA repair? Is there like some trade-off during evolution? And then our genes went, yeah, we're not going to end.

hans dna repair i don't know there must be something that has caused it over the years to develop this where they always did this in humans and then changed or always did this in naked mole rats and then changed and maybe we're just yet to evolve further to be cancer resistant we're not as evolved as a naked mole rat but it is really cool

And I mean, yeah, naked mole rats, people have been looking at them from like genomic perspectives for so long because they're super, super weird. But this is, this is proper interesting. Yeah. There are like some other animals who are just like...

live super freakishly long and also i don't know if they're like like with naked romance they don't get cancer or they're just like higher resistant to cancer but there's the greenland shark that's really long living So they can live for around 400 years. And they think that their extreme longevity is a mixture of, like, they're just general, like, they don't really have that many predators.

But also they grow at a really slow rate and also their metabolism is really low. It's the lowest out of all the shark species.

and typically with a low metabolism rate then that reduces the chances of cellular damage over time and that would in theory correlate to longer longer lifespans but there's also some research on like some theories put forward where like if you have a slower growth rate it means that you reach sexual maturity much later in life because i think greenland sharks they don't reach sexual maturity like maybe a hundred

So it's like you kind of need to live longer in order to reproduce. Because if all the juveniles who can't reproduce die from diseases, it's not very good. You're pretty much just going to... get killed and just go extinct. There's that theory that's out there. Imagine living for 400 years but you don't reach sexual maturity until you're 100. And that's a long time to be a juvenile, isn't it?

just like in really cold Greenland waters chilling really slowly. I bet they move really slowly. I bet they're just not in a rush. I mean, low metabolism, you can't really afford to move fast. What do they eat? Maybe they eat really slow fish or something. Because they're clearly not speeding around under the water. That is a good question. I'm not totally sure what they eat because what could they catch? I need to look it up.

Yeah, because I think of like small fish and squid as being like quite speedy, right? So presumably the shark is not that speedy. Maybe they're filter feeders. Are they filter feeders? Well, they do eat fish. They're opportunistic and scavengers. Oh, this scavenging. Perfect. Like whale fools and stuff. That's not going anywhere. Yeah, they will eat dead whales.

They'll hunt animals by ambushing them from below or while animals are sleeping. Which is cheeky. That is clever. Yeah. Don't need to be rushing around if the animals are still asleep. It's amazing how we know that Greenland sharks live so long because it's to do with the atomic bomb. So they like looked at the lenses of these eyes of sharks and then...

the like bomb pulse and the like radiocarbon levels and the isotopes that were released into the environment were then found in the eye lenses of the sharks. Wow. Which is absolutely... Nuts. Yeah. Yeah. Radioactive isotopes in the eyes of sharks just taught us that they were like closer to 400-year-olds than we thought they were.

But Greenland sharks aren't the only species that can live up to 400 years. Clams can also live for that long. And I think the clam holds the record for the longest or the oldest species. uh yeah good old ming the clan uh they thought scientists thought he was 400 years old when they accidentally killed him after they killed him and did some more tests they found out he was 507 years old

That is so sad. So sad. It's an absolute scientific tragedy that we killed Ming. Think how old he could be now if we hadn't murdered him. Yeah, it'd be like in his close to 550. Possibly. When did he die? 2006. Aww. Yeah, be a pro... Not, like... That's sad. Less than two decades from his 550th birthday.

Are we thinking Ming is like the Greenland sharks? Does he live in like really cold environments, like really slow metabolism? I mean, possibly also too. But like, I think with like some species, they can just like grow continuously. big because like clams are a very unusual type of animal aren't they oh i don't honestly know that much about clams to be honest

There are certain species of jellyfish who have really freaky rejuvenation abilities because they can just revert back to their adolescence or a juvenile. Oh, yes, that is a thing, isn't it? In theory, they could live forever as long as they don't get eaten.

So I guess it's the same with clams. They can live for as long as they want as long as they don't get eaten. Well, I think that was a myth. Or killed by us. Yeah, like a myth about lobsters is that lobsters don't die of old age. They just get eaten by people. Yeah.

uh and other animals presumably so yeah i guess they just go on living in their really slow little could you also say the same for other some other sea creatures because they like grow bigger they just need to like they just grow outgrow their shell

Oh, and then they have to find a new one. There's bowhead whales as well, which are super long-lived. They're like 200 years. Which you think for something that big is crazy. Yeah. Elephants also live pretty long. Like, not as long as...

humans, another smaller species, but for an animal their size, they can live pretty long. Well, with these tortoises as well, I just thought, I mean, this, I think, I don't know if this is on record, the longest living tortoise, but... this daughter's died at 170 and they're quite slow moving as well and I'm like maybe the solution is just to move really slow or have like

I don't know. I feel like a lot of marathon runners have super low resting heart rates and their metabolism is just kind of goes a lot lower and the same with loads of athletes. I'm like, maybe, I don't know. There's a, there's an advantage to.

having your heart slow down at least you know but this is what you were saying earlier right about stress like if you're stressed your heart rate is super high so you need to make like a tortoise and chill out slow your heart rate slow your metabolism yeah start living life in the slow lane yeah the same for like crocodiles too because like characteristic crocodiles is they're really good at just like waiting just like staying really still and they can live to be over 100

So, it does help. Yeah. I think you might have cracked it, folks. More time on the sofa. They're fast than they need to be fast, but they're really good at just staying still. Is there anything we can do to, like, fight the signs of aging?

from outside and inside if we want you know a slow lifestyle a stress-free life but also we want to you know we don't want to look old we don't want to look our age necessarily can we do anything about that or can we use something like supplements to repair our dna help those good old telomeres yeah so there are like some supplements that have been shown to like be beneficial for like

helping with anti-aging so antioxidants so stuff like you find in superfoods um the the the way that they help with anti-aging is that they're supposed to neutralize or reduce the impact of radicals on DNA and cells in the body so basically they help protect DNA so that we don't get as much DNA damage and DNA damage is what causes and drives aging so like that's why there's a whole bunch of stuff like eat these eat these superfoods that are really rich in antioxidants

i think they're being pushed now again they've become back into they've become popular again but it's also like they were pretty popular like 10 20 years ago and it's also just like some general supplements like vitamin c copper Collagen? I don't think collagen is one. I think that's just like... I feel like collagen is a myth because your body doesn't absorb... I don't think the body absorbs the collagen when you take out the supplement. Or maybe it does. We did a whole episode on collagen.

And it pains me that I can't remember and I can hear Laura being like, you should know this in the back of my head. There's many different kinds of collagen as well. Someone that's listened to the episode, you'll be like, oh yeah, I remember all of that. But yeah, I think you're right. I think there are some supplements that are in general good for you to take anyway that then can help you. But the anti-oxidants thing is cool. I remember being told blueberries was the way forwards.

Rich in antioxidants. And what's the other one? You get like smoothie bowls. Acai. Acai, that one. Yeah. Very high in antioxidants.

I mean, I think there's also quite a lot of arguments as well for like magnesium and like sleep enhancing supplements because it's like the recovery and everyone's like, you know. I'll also go back to Brian Johnson. But like the thing he always talks about is he's like, I always make sure I get this amount of sleep. And then it always makes me feel really bad about my sleep.

and my sleep score i have like a garmin which tells me my sleep score is awful it's actually horrendous seeing your sleep score Because sometimes you feel great and then it's like, no, sleep score of 30, not enough REM. My husband is also obsessed with his sleep score. But I do think he's had it quite as low as 30. That does sound a little bit worrying.

what are you doing in your sleep I don't trust the sleep skills because when I feel like I've got I've got had a good night's sleep my sleep was really low but when it tells me I've had a great night's sleep I'm like I feel terrible how does it know what is it using is it your pulse what's it looking at i think so and also like i think it can know when you're in like rem um because i get like a break a breakdown of all of my like sleep and it

The deep sleep I think is obvious because it's going to be when your heart rate's the lowest. And so it kind of like does a little bit of, you know, solving the problems in between. But I've had a super, I've had like...

18 before like I feel like that's just life of a PhD student I don't know but do you feel when you get an 18 that you've like you know you've tossed and turned you've laid awake for ages you're not sleeping or do you feel like it's not been that bad and the garmin is mocking you that that low is usually like there's just not enough sleep right is my main comment i get but um i think like deep i always get quite a lot of deep sleep no matter what i think i'm quite lucky

with that so it's always like you've got enough deep sleep so i feel like my recovery is like i never feel truly awful yeah um and i think but rem like it makes you feel more awake afterwards if i have more rem i don't know why like if i don't have that much rem i wake up feeling more like groggy and tired um

But whether that's just because I've just had all these dreams where I'm like, I don't know, running or doing something. I come out and I'm like, oh, I'm ready for the day now rather than like a deep sleep to awake like transition. Could just be that. I guess it's also related to stress, right? You can see sometimes like pictures of famous people that have taken positions of power, like presidents or prime ministers, like the before and after of them.

in four year period is not the before and after of a normal joe blobs in a four year period like i remember like When Obama, at the end of his presidency, after eight years, he had fully gone grey. And he just looked so tired. I mean, he probably did not get a good sleep store for those entire eight years. But it's also something like, some politicians, especially the really hardcore ones, they pride themselves in getting two hours sleep or four hours sleep.

It is a thing. It's definitely a thing of being like, oh, I only need four hours because I'm so busy and important running the country. But I can survive on this. But I could absolutely not survive on that. I need like a solid eight hours every night.

I don't get eight hours sleep. I'm lucky if I get six. But are you trying? I'm not. Because I take my sleep hygiene very important. I... I find that if I sleep, I think my ideal amount of sleep is like between six to seven hours because I find if I sleep for more than eight hours, I'm really tired.

when i wake up there is a thing i think of as of too much you could like well not overdose but like overindulge maybe on uh sleeping too long but it is nice to be in bed i was gonna say i think i've started to take it more seriously since literally this past week of rereading this book a little bit because i'm like oh i really do they're really selling it as an idea of like something that really helps you so um

Yeah, I think I really need to prioritise a bit more. It's something that, in theory, everyone should be able to do. Apart from parents of young children. Yeah, and politicians. Yeah. But I heard a thing, I don't know if this is true, that you can never make it up. So if you have a bad night's sleep, you can't regain that night of sleep, even if you slept really well for the next week.

it doesn't make up for the lost benefit of that one night that you missed. Oh, wow. That's depressing. Yeah. Sorry, Claire. That's so scary. Oh my God. I prefer this book, which is like, you can always reverse your telomere length. I'm like, yay. Yay. Doesn't matter. Those years of exams where like, I don't know, my heart rate was a million and I wasn't sleeping. Oh, Emma.

Just wait until you're writing up your thesis and preparing for your Bible. Oh God, I know. I think the pre and post PhD picks for me will be very ageing. Oh no, don't say that. I'm sure you will. just as youthful as you do now.

What about this Brian Johnson then? What do we think about him? Do you think he is on the right idea with all his crazy things to live forever? I mean, he does make some valid points with some of the stuff that he does. So the sleep and eating. He's very particular in his diet. He eats the same thing every day, but it's like been engineered to meet all his nutritional needs.

So he is getting all his vitamins, minerals, fiber, et cetera, which a lot of people, especially like the average American, the average Brit, we definitely don't get meet the minimum recommended like fiber. protein vitamins minerals so he is on to some stuff with there but he does do some really weird stuff like he did this thing with blood plasma plasma plasma transfusions

I'm not entirely sure what the details are, and it's also, according to the internet, and the scientists on the internet, it's unproven on whether, like, plasma transfers actually do anything in terms of rejuvenation and longevity. But it's just... something that he does he takes the blood from his teenage son does some stuff with the plasma and infuses it into himself that is

like proper james bond villain vibes i think yeah i'm fine if you want to spend all your millions you know on the perfect diet the perfect sleep routine that okay makes sense but when you get start taking blood from teenagers it gets a bit weird. Yeah that one was actually like made reference in Only Murders in the Building because the character that is based on Brian Johnson and Steve Jobs.

did be like oh yeah I've got like if you need if you need plasma I've got a stable full of teenagers oh god yeah I think I think Brian Johnson is kind of like taking it obsessively yeah

And he wants to live really long, but he never actually says why or what he wants to do in his life. Whereas I feel like... a good motivation would be I would like to live longer so I can contribute this or do this or whatever but he's just kind of after the end goal and I think that like hyper focus honestly is probably stressing him out so um

I don't know. I think it could be counterintuitive at one point. It could also just be something that, because a bunch of these really rich millionaires and billionaires, they tend to do some really weird things. So it could just be one of the weird things rich people do.

Yeah, maybe. You know what this is reminding me of, and this is a bit rogue, but at the end of Twilight... the final film there's those three like uh vampires that are in charge of all the other vampires and they've been like alive for however many million years and like one of them is just over it it's just over living yeah and he like wants to die like at that point

What more are you achieving? You're already in charge. You've got everything you want. You know, your friend's probably a long dead. I guess he has people that he knows still. But would you want to live forever? I don't know if that's really the goal.

Yeah, I mean, there are all those movies about people of species who just don't age and live forever. But usually in these movies... the characters then do end up wanting to age because it's just really sad and depressing not aging because all your friends die yeah it's horrible it's like um

Is it Benjamin Button? Does he age backwards? Yeah, he ages backwards. Yeah. Which is, again, very strange because I also wouldn't want to end up a child again because that would just be inconvenient. Yeah, but also why start your life as an old man? Yeah. I mean, I guess you, presumably being older is harder, right? So then you have, I guess you have more freedom for longer because you're only a child for 18 years, but you guess you could be.

a healthy adult for, what, 60? Yeah. That's quite a long line, but 50 maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I think that probably is where we should leave it. Before we all end up like Brian Johnson. But we might need to win the lottery before that happens. Yeah, we need mega millions for that. Mega millions, yeah, absolutely. We've covered all sorts from what actually is ageing to...

telomeres to the fact that we don't age in a linear way to naked mole rats and clams and everything in between. We've also considered whether we could fight the signs of aging with some antioxidants or just a lot of sleep. So if you've enjoyed this episode, let us know and we'll see you very soon for the next one.

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