How is fusion energy portrayed in Spider-man?

your life? I guess it's worth giving a definition of what i understand it to be in this context so we're talking about the fusion of atoms to create energy or electricity i guess and this is to me this is a very of the future seeming technology it's not something we currently have although people have been researching it for a long time but it also comes up in popular culture quite a lot and i remember it clearly featuring in one of the spider-man films from about 20-ish years ago with Tobey

Maguire i was watching the new spider-man film in the cinema over christmas it came back fusion was being talked about again doc och returned in the latest spider-man film and he says he wants the power of the sun in the palm of his hand i remember watching spider-man 2 way back when i was working in the cinema time as well and thinking that what actually happens in the films is probably quite far from reality but that isn't the limit of what i know

films? I'd like to start off by saying i cannot believe it's been 20 years since that film that's just made me feel really old and quite depressed my perspective on fusion so i actually work in fusion so i should start with that so i'm obviously quite biased i have not been working in it for 20 years i was still in school at the time when spider-man 2 came out but even in the 10 or so years i've been working in fusion there's been a huge amount of development and it's very in at the

moment there's a lot of you know press attention there's a lot of companies and a lot of private investment that has never really happened before it's always been as laura put it in the future there's always a joke it's 30 years away or we'll get it when we need it that's what people always say so starting to see a bit of a change from it being purely kind of scientific to kind of having more industrial involvement over the last few years whether that will result in you know

acceleration in the employment or fusion is but uh it's exciting for sure yeah it sounds like there's a lot to unpack so maybe let's start at the beginning of what is fusion so i heard that fusion was first researched in 1920 when people observed that the mass of atoms particularly hydrogen atoms were heavier than helium atoms and that was when they applied einstein's theory of m equal e equals m c squared yes but on so yeah it was interesting is that it was actually

like discovered before fission was so traditional nuclear powers are fission reactors where they split atoms to liberate energy because there's a mass difference between the atoms that you produce compared to the reactants in a simple term fusion's the opposite so as laura mentioned we stick them together also liberating energy by the same kind of equals mc squared process that you mentioned this is something that happens naturally in the sun this is the best

working fusion reactor that we we have in our solar system so we have fusion of light atoms in there and that's how the sun releases so much energy as dr octopus mentioned in spider-man we're trying to recreate the sun on earth or as he says in the palm of his hand i think a lot of the fusion reactors in in hollywood are quite small compared to the size of the experimental ones we're working on in in real life i don't think any of them would fit in someone's hand

or even in a small building but yeah so they're quite large beasts at the moment you're saying that a fusion reactor can't fit into palm of someone's hand why is that what makes it so difficult to actually make it into a little pocket-sized reactor if you can imagine this is what's happening in the sun so the temperatures we need are pretty hot in order to sustain a fusion rat so normally a fusion reaction relies on three main things which is the temperature of your kind of atoms you're

fusing fusing together the density of them and how long them you can hold them kind of close enough for them to interact because i don't know if you remember like likes opposites attracts and likes repel like from your high school science it's the same with your nuclei so if you can imagine your nuclei positively charged so to get them to fuse together they have to overcome that repulsive force and in order to do that they have to either be very very hot or very very close together in order to

achieve that the sun does that because it's got a lot of pressure and also very high temperatures like maybe 10 million degrees we can't create those same pressures to get the atoms close enough on earth so we actually need to go to temperatures even hotter than the center of the sun so we're talking about like 100 million degrees celsius in this thing called a plasma which is like a superheated gas with all these positive nuclei and then the electrons kind of

floating together in in this suit so we have super super hot plasma then we need to confine that in some way and hold it together so that they can kind of fuse there's different ways of doing that i could go into a lot of detail but maybe it's too much i don't know so one way is with lasers in another way is with magnet magnets are the ones that are kind of most commonly used at the moment but there's a lot of work with the lasers as well so you kind of need to

hold this plasma in a device maybe with magnets holding it all in place it's super super hot inside the magnets you have are super super cold they're super cooled super conducting magnets which is basically almost absolute zero so in a typical fusion reactor called a tokamak which is like the stone shaped device in the space of a few meters you're going from almost absolute zero to 10 times hotter than the center of the sun so it's quite a challenge to have that kind of temp nowhere else

in the universe has such temperature gradient other than a fusion reactor so it's kind of crazy there's like a huge challenge in holding the reaction in place the materials the engineering to to have kind of container that can hold it all and that's probably the easy bit we still also can't get more energy out than we put in because holding that reaction in there getting it to kind of self-sustain itself is a real challenge but nika what kind of materials could

you use so to refer back to spider-man 2 doc ock uses these ai controlled robotic arms to control it is there any robotic arm that we could use to hold the reactor together or start the reaction nothing to hold the reactor it's all kind of your steels and things like this you build almost like a giant vacuum vessel with steels and other materials that can hold it in place but robotics are really important in fusion and there's been a huge advancement in the terms of robotics that we use because

sometimes there's certain places where you can't go into it's not safe for people to go into and so they need to do remote handling much like the fission industry or replace components so there's been huge advancements of robotics and there's even the ones i've forgotten what they're called but it's like you can just move your hand and the robot moves do you know what i'm talking about so it's like you have a headset and then you move your hand and the robot moves in the same way as your hand

oh like so something in the headset that's sort of tracking what your hand does and mirroring okay yeah so there's been huge like advancements in the robotic technologies for fusion work but not robots to hold the reaction as such but more about kind of moving bits of you know moving components and things like that i got the impression that whoever was doing the writing of the science bits for spider-man 2 just kind of combined them several different technologies from the

nuclear industry and just stuck them all together because i think doctors mentioned that it's it's impervious to temperature or something like that those are the octopus arms that you have something what how do you make anything impervious to temperature yeah fusion literally needs high temperatures and magnets to hold it so it really needs those things rather than not being impacted by them now i got the impression that the reason we're not using the tech yet i'm aware that you

have to get more energy out than you're putting in i always thought it was because the confinement was a difficult part but from what you said it sounds like it could be more temperature differences so is is there one big challenge to look at or is it all those many different challenges that you mentioned there's millions of challenges so yeah the confinement time is still an issue laura i still i think that's an issue achieving a burning plasma now we have to heat the plasma to get the reaction

going and to keep it going the idea is that it can kind of self-sustain itself in the future if we can but we're not at that stage yet additionally huge materials challenges in terms of complex very complex geometries regardless of whatever reactor design you're going for the geometries are crazy you have kind of joins between dissimilar materials that have very different properties which creates weaknesses in your structures on top of that you have it getting the fuel so another things that

in a fusion reactor on earth we want to use two isotopes of hydrogen called deuterium and tritium deuterium is pretty readily available tritium at the moment a lot of it comes from can do reactors so a little link with the fission industry but the hope is that in the future we can breed the tritium within the reactor itself which i think dr octopus talks about maybe he doesn't i don't you mentioned self-sustaining but doesn't really explain this that's like harmonic harmonics and stuff like

finding some frequency that's the same as the atoms or something which i didn't quite understand i think that's just hollywood talk in terms of the self-sustaining the plan is that the neutrons that are generated from the tritium reaction can interact with lithium which would be in the wall of your reactor generating more tritium which could then be used as more fuel so that's the plan of it being self-sustaining so if we're starting with tritium and what was the other one euterium what's

deuterium is it one proton two neutrons and then we're adding on one proton three neutrons and then we get lithium or have i got that wrong so yeah we have the deuterium and tritium which is two what one proton for both of them and then two neutrons three neutrons they fuse together producing helium so that's two neutrons and two protons plus another neutron which is highly energetic so it's a like 14 mev neutron so that highly energetic neutron that's generated can then interact with lithium

in order to produce tritium that's the theory it's not being proven okay because when they mention the self-sustaining i assume that you fuse these atoms together and then you can somehow get them to fall apart again even though they're meant to create fairly stable isotopes i think no i think it's the reaction keeps going without any additional heat being injected into it and then on top of that you can generate more fuel from the neutrons that are generated i think it's

also been a long time since i've seen this movie i don't know if that's what they were about but i feel those fit in the bill of self-sustaining when it comes to be fair in spider-man too there's pretty much just this he places this ball of tritium in the middle of this this cage essentially and for what i've seen of you mentioned um takamak reactors i think they've got this like big sort of like a hollow donut really and all the magnetic confinements around the outside of that donut right

yeah exactly very different to what was in spider-man 2. so is this the kind of thing that we are looking at in the the fusion world where we're getting deuterium tritium to get self-sustaining or is there an alternative that people have been looking at so determines normally considered because i think it's got the highest cross-section like it's the most the reaction that's most likely to occur and it's easiest to achieve for energy production reasons on earth compared to

other similar ones people have looked at other ones so it's not to completely discount them i think there could be other ways of doing it but this is the one that's most heavily researched so when you say cross-section that means i i think of that as to capture neutrons is that right though it's it's the probability of its being able to capture the probability of it of them fusing together basically yeah that's what i meant when i said that so something that people often talk about as well is

you're talking about it almost being like a perpetual machine of energy is that realistic is that once we get it going is there no other issues in the world we've got free cheap energy forever because that was what everyone seems to sort of talk about nuclear fusion is the holy grail to all of our energy issues so i think it's a mistake to refer to any energy as a holy grail i don't think there's any such thing every energy source has its downsides right we're very high energy intensive society

anything we use is going to have an impact on the environment along the way in terms of having it run forever i think china broke the record for the longest ever fusion reaction last week and i think it was 17 minutes it might be wrong um but that's a big deal in the fusion community that's really impressive but clearly 17 minutes is not gonna power london or power you know all these major major cities so we're still quite a while away uh i don't think it's impossible but that gives you kind of

the scale of what we're working with in terms of the length of time the reaction can continue and that wasn't a like a net energy reaction that was just a fusion reaction so it's actually pretty easy to do a fusion reaction whether it's between human deuterium or other kind of light elements that's pretty straightforward they've been doing that for years it's just doing it for a long time and doing it in a way that is actually going to produce energy is a real challenge so i think yeah

we're still a while away right so that record in china they were still putting more energy in than they were getting out for those 17 minutes yeah i believe so otherwise i think it would be i think everyone would have been crazy once they got that 17 minute how long did it take to set up for the next run you know like you've got 17 minutes we did it and then how much longer would it take to get that tritium fuel back in and resetting everything getting back up

to that temperature and pressure as well because i imagine like once it happened and then it was like okay we need to shut it down it's not sustaining anymore so i don't think they even use tritium i think it was deuteronomy to him i may be wrong please yeah i can't remember so they probably didn't even use tritium i'm guessing they used to do term determined because i think only jet at the moment which is in the uk is operating with deuterium and tritium to test the reaction so i think that was

just deuterium deuterium i don't know when the next pulse would have been i assume that it wouldn't take too long but again i'm not sure so when it became unsustainable it was 17 minutes i'm guessing that that didn't mean it was about to explode and we have to shut it down like it did in spider-man it was just the reactions kind of stopped and it fizzled out you couldn't blow up a fusion reactor if you tried it's like so difficult to do the question of it blowing up exploding

would never happen it would just literally as i said laura just fizz it out when it does it doesn't work it just shuts off that's fusion that's what i figure i guess that's either because the confinement goes or the temperature's not right or like i guess you can poison the reaction right i say poison reaction it's probably not because if you get erosion of your of your wall and there's impurities in your plasma your plasma just switches off it switches off so

easily it's like so difficult to keep it going that's why it's really really safe from that perspective so you know with like fission reactions you can almost get like a runaway can't you is that something that happens in fusion or maybe i'm wrong laura maybe i shouldn't say fishing has runaway reaction i think the fast fission reactors now were designed so that can't happen it will just end the reaction somehow without any particular problems and fusion it just can't happen it's

nothing to do with like the design it's just it won't run away just won't it won't work if the conditions aren't right it just won't happen that's fine i'm guessing whoever wrote spider-man 2 was like oh it's the sun let's just sort of lean on that analogy let's make something that looks like the sun this little really hot ball in this fairly pretty described confinement ring but it looked like a little sun like the pictures you see the sun it was um orangey wasn't it i also suspect it

would look like that in real life so i mentioned plasmas plasmas do have a color depending on you know what elements you have in there a lot of the pictures you see will be like purple so you'll see like a purple plasma inside of the tocomax but yeah it doesn't look like the sun at all although we do that as an analogy that we're trying to build the sun on earth that's a real quote from fusion scientists the whole basis for spider-man 2 nothing to do with the

tentacle arms that take control of him and start making him do things that you shouldn't but that's a different technology that went wrong that that wasn't nuclear fusion yeah yeah check out our nanobots episodes just before christmas yeah it actually makes me wonder based on our episode what do those nanowires do and what are they made of and why is even using nanowires but that's a different podcast episode but so you said that not many people are using tritium and dark actors

every time he said you can't just call it tricky and he has to call it precious tritium every single time he mentions it you said that's because it probably can only really be gotten from other parts of the nuclear industry at the moment but that will change once they develop this breeding technology and they're actually researching that in eta which is being built in the south of france so that's like a massive experimental reactor that involves collaborations with the eu us japan

korea china india russia should be seven i might have missed if i missed you out but they're all working together and one of the concepts they're trying to prove is this treating breeding technology so that if it's producing healing what happens to the helium it cannot poison the reaction and causes a lot of issues laura is that just waste that they have to do something with i mean it's fairly in the benign gas right well you see it's benign until it forms

bubbles and all sorts of weird so helium can interact with tungsten which is what i work on and produces this wild nanostructure on the surface of your material and it turns the tungsten black so if you can imagine a black metal so it's completely optically black and then people were scared that this might erode and then poison the plasma or cause issues but actually there's been a lot of research into could we use this even though it might be an issue in a fusion

reactor could we use it for photo catalysis or for like solar panels and things like that because it's an optically black metal so one man's treasure is another no one man's trash is another man or person sorry yes i should be uh inclusive yeah i'm not gonna say it again i'm just gonna confuse myself but you know you've got neutrons flying around in there as well right and if you're confining stuff with magnets you're not gonna confine the neutrons are you nope so they also damage your material

that's another issue they go straight through and they interact with your material they can cause transmutation so your materials can start as one thing end up being something else and they can cause a lot of damage yeah most of what i know about neutrons is they make things that are radioactive and then you've got radioactive waste to deal with yeah so to be fair the fusion industry have said they want to try and use reduced activation materials so they deliberately try and use elements that

will produce as little radioactive waste as possible however with 14 mev neutrons you are gonna get stuff getting activated i think it won't be high level it will be low level but i think there will be a significant amount how do you think it will compare to the conventional nuclear industries waste the question quantity a lot of the waste has been developed from nuclear industry currently that's come from really old technology reactors and newer reactors and could be more efficient and could

produce less waste and they can recycle the waste as well if you sow tubes so yes i think that's a really difficult one to figure out what the differences would be i think we won't have high level radioactive waste from fusion just because of you know the tritium has a very short half-life so i think all of our waste will come from the interactions of the neutrons with the structure so if they can find materials that are you know reduced activation and don't you know have become so so

radioactive then we can reduce it but i think yeah i think there will be quite an amount of low low level radioactive waste it's my prediction but i'm not i don't specialize in this so please take that with a agreement well you mentioned that there's a lot of development going on it's changed a lot since spider-man 2 was in the cinemas compared to the latest spider-man film and what i found quite interesting was that when darkhawk is saying i want the pride of sudden

power in my hand and then spoiler spider-man fixes what was wrong with his octopus arms and he's like and the the scientist is using his knowledge for the good of humankind now then spider-man just hands him one of tony stark's arc reactors like there you go pirates in the palm of your hand and it kind of illustrated how the technology could change in a few decades but as you said at the start the fusion devices can't possibly be that small because of the technology you'd need the heat and the

confinement and whatever else so i said that maybe not the size of your hand but actually there is a lot of work on these high high-temperature superconductors which are being developed at the moment so things like rebco so i believe there's a company in the uk called tokamak energy and then also in the u.s commonwealth fusion systems are working with mit on the spark and our reactors i think they chose it to link to iron man so they're using these high-temperature

superconductors which means you can operate the superconductors instead of almost at absolute zero operate at a whopping i want to say 77 liquid nitrogen temperature liquid higher nitrogen to you and me it's still freezing but a lot higher than absolute zero before the super conduct the the low temperature superconducting magnets was that liquid helium or what was it that they used to to make those low temperature because like liquid nitrogen is pretty cold to most people yeah

now that's a good question actually i don't know what they're called i think helium sounds reasonable but i'm not sure but with those your reactor has to be a lot larger whereas with the high temperature ones they have a capacity to be smaller so the reactor could potentially be a bit smaller with these high temperatures superconducting be interesting it's probably slightly outside this episode but there's a lot of talk about small modular reactors yes which they're fishing instead of fusion

but the idea is that they're small and self-contained they could be underground close to population centers maybe and there wasn't there wouldn't be much risk of anything untoward happening to that population i wonder what the size comparison would be between that infusion reactor so it's interesting you've mentioned that because recently bayes which is the uk department for business energy and industrial strategy have shortlisted three potential designs for advanced modular reactors so similar

to the smrs which which you've mentioned but i think they're just new concepts two of them are fission concepts one of them is a fusion function which is wild i think that's so amazing i'm very exciting so yeah so the uk government is getting behind some of this technology and yeah really go do stuff yeah yeah i do wonder though because the the pots and money that the government give out were probably quite small in comparison to what you need to do all this research and actually make a

viable technology so i wonder how much difference that will make it is encouraging now yeah i mean i think that's the issue with any type of nuclear technology right nuts and again what dr octopus said is the octopus or ok i feel i'm calling him the wrong name is otto octavius isn't he octavian i think he's he's sort of he's given that name by um what's the block that runs the daily bugle yeah thank you i think he he's the person that names all the superheroes and super

villains in my head anyway and i think because he had like four human limbs and four ai nanowire the robotic yeah grabby things yeah he says it would be a cheap technology but i don't think any nuclear every nuclear technology requires like support in terms of the cost sides it's not as cheap as other sources of energy right that's one of its big disadvantages it's also quite interesting in if you know again to compare it to nuclear fission is how there is a lot more collaboration

you know nuclear fission is still largely kind of politically sensitive kind of geopolitical like this is our technology the can-do reactor from canada literally has canada in its name you know the uk agr that they have that technology and then there's the other ones that i can't remember but fusion seems to have become an international collaborative effort yeah definitely for sure i think there's a lot of collaboration infusion but still not enough i think it's there needs to be

more especially from like developing countries and things like that i think it definitely needs to be more accessible to more people i think there's an issue with that even in fusion as well as fission so why do you think fusion is still always 30 years away is it just the lack of money going into it is it that we just haven't worked everything out or we don't have the right materials that's our palm of our hand yeah that's a really good question so i actually think that

recently until very recently there hadn't been a lot of money in fusion to be honest compared to other technologies other industries compared to renewables so it's very much kind of scientific academic kind of research so it was quite small scale despite these kind of large collaborations and things like that but i think also the collaborative nature is great but it also means things take a lot longer as well i think when you have such big projects it's really difficult like if you're making

components in china and another component that's the same in india and another one in the eu getting them all to fit together with really low tolerances is a real challenge speaking specifically about eta and big you know any big multinational project like that i think is going to take a long time and then even with the companies there's just huge technical challenges along the way they've developed so much technology that's constantly spinning out into other kind of industries and things like

that whether it's the robotics whether it's the superconductors so regardless i think it's a good investment just because the side side hustles that are created i didn't know what the right word was i'm just going to call it side hustles of fusion are really valuable to a lot of different parts of society but it is technically very challenging so i think that's why it's taken a long time hopefully with more investment now and more people getting trained up and

working in it it can go i think that's like the nature of research though if you knew exactly how things work it wouldn't be called research would it so you always uncover things that you didn't expect or something else he's looking into in more detail and i don't care what people say the majority of discoveries i'm sure they happen by accident or when you don't you when you do something you're not supposed to like you can buy for ages and ages and do everything by the book and then one

day you'll just forget to do something and that's when you'll get your interesting result or you know something a bit more creative or different this is how you get spider-man super villains because they fall into a vat of something or someone does an experiment speaking of things that people shouldn't do i don't know if we want to broach this topic of weaponizing fusion because that was sort of where it came some of the research came from was looking at thermonuclear weapons you know first it

was fission and coming up with the atomic bomb and then they came up with hydrogen bombs do you start i think it's just unfortunate that the nuclear industry was becoming a thing that happened to coincide with the end world war i think a lot of scientists were like we're doing this to create electricity that would be so cheap you won't have to meter it with what was being said and i think it's more it's a victim of circumstance that it's so strongly associated with nuclear

weapons but i'll get down on my soapbox i think because other people have got different points of view no but i think i think it's obviously it's it's not great but i think it's important to remember that actually a lot of research comes from military applications across all industries and i'm not excusing it at all i think obviously nuclear weapons are terrible but even food i read this really interesting book i can't remember the name and it's going to really annoy me

but it was like how a lot of the food that we eat now it came from like military research especially like the process stuff so like cheese powder came from like military research in america back in the day they developed and so a lot of these companies they invested in the army to develop food that they could use like as russians and in return they were able to then market it and sell it because they owned the the rights to it so a lot of these processed foods came

from like army stuff i think it was like combat ready for i'm gonna find the name of the book because it's gonna annoy me but the point is is that a lot of industries regardless can either be used for good things or for bad things and i remember ginormous sent one quote as well that it what was the quote oh it's about using my intelligence or knowledge for human good wasn't it yeah also i found the book combat ready kitchen how the us military shapes the way you eat

really recommend it it's a really interesting sound interesting a quotation was intelligence is not a privilege it's a gift and use it for the good of mankind they say in the film i'm going to change it so humankind humankind but no i think that's so true and so acts like regardless of whatever field you're working in it can be used for for good and bad right and nuclear is no exception and we should really take responsibility and make sure that we use it for the good of humans because it is

really a great technology in terms of generating electricity without releasing a lot of carbs i think we need to use it for that and it sounds like the number of people and the money required to make a technology like this or like gene editing or other things that are considered to be controversial someone would probably notice if someone was doing something nefarious right same with like we discussed the nanobots in james bond before christmas i think someone would probably notice if you

were if you had some shady island somewhere where you were creating all these like poisonous things that could home in on an individual's dna yeah and it's so heavily regulated there's so many people checking how everyone's doing everything in in any kind of nuclear industry okay yes we've not mentioned this at all go on whack lyrical about what what got you interested in spider-man first place neither um great question so when i was little my mom somehow ended up getting

this video from somewhere i don't know where from and it had these 1970s spider-man movies with i think nicholas hammond is the name of the actor who played spider-man and anyone who's not watched them i think they're on youtube no one knows about this like only the die hard spider-man i'm not even a die-hard spider-man fan but it's just because that's how i was introduced into it that was like started my love affair with with spider-man they're just amazing they actually i

think the science in them is a lot better than modern hollywood laura mentioned they basically show you a lot of nuclear technology in either the first one and the second one i think there were three i don't remember i've only watched the first two only found those two on youtube after you mentioned them but yeah the second one there was a a university professor or college professor it's in america that had some plutonium in the lab and like students like that's really dangerous you can

make a bomb out of that shall we steal it and prove how easy it is to make a bomb it was a different time it was a different time to know i mean the detail they went into into describing how they made this bomb was like oh i might be able to do that now i don't have a microcontroller that would initiate the the data so i think from what i know the way atomic weapons work is you need to create a critical mass which depends on the geometry and the stuff around it as well but you have

like a small amount of plutonium and then a bigger amount of plutonium and the detonation forces the two together which then releases a large amount of energy all this from a spider-man movie guys would you get that today no you wouldn't don't know if that's a good or a bad thing but i highly recommend those those movies and i encourage everyone yeah i i enjoyed them i enjoyed the most recent spiderman there i guess they're quite the home trilogy because it's all home

and the titles aren't there and i think my favorite lines from that film was probably uh mj in the last films a bunch of scientists super villains whatever else and just like you're in a wizard's dungeon it's brilliant this wizard that somehow does something with physics and controls universes wizards dungeon i think that's hollywood approach to science it's magic that's not science was there someone else who said it only seems like magic because they don't understand the science so that's why

they're in hollywood they can tell a story and not understand the science and it's magical maybe i still think quantum entanglement sounds pretty magical even though i kind of understand how it works but making stuff molecules and atoms on one side of the universe is something that something else is doing here and now that sounds pretty magical to me wormholes and i think that we'll just leave it there

it crystals try lithium i think i remember i'm saying or diluting yeah and no no i think they upgraded from dilithium to trilithium depending on which which series you're watching so as far as we know it's just a reactor and they dump the core when there's a problem and then they somehow magically make another i think that's what i liked about star trek they didn't go into so much detail that you could sit there and go well that wouldn't happen and that's slightly silly they just mentioned this

stuff sort of in passing and you go yeah okay and i think that helps with the storytelling doesn't it that you're not going to get bogged down in that kind of detail because that's not what you know that it's just like a literal vehicle for their storytelling oh it's a lit that's a great fun i love that did you do that on purpose like i heart do them on purpose and half only realize it as i'm saying it that there's just so deadpan's delivery i thought i think we should have the

conversation there because i'm not going to start laughing though

they're in new york yeah so let's draw the conversation some clothes find us on twitter if you want to carry on this conversation leave a comment on the episode also leave us a review of what you think of this podcast and yeah catch you next time the views expressed in this podcast belong entirely to the person that said them they do not represent any industry or organization if you enjoyed listening to these views it would really help us out if you could rate us leave a review

and tell a friend this podcast was sponsored by no one but if you're interested in funding us to continue to have frank discussions about science and engineering please get in touch