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hello and welcome to technically speaking where scientists and engineers come together to chat about a common interest share knowledge and satisfy some curiosity I'm Laura and I'm joined by Antonia and Ellie to talk about the internet and whether we can learn absolutely anything from it and this is a milestone episode for us it's our 100th one so we' really like to thank you all for listening in all the years we've been doing this podcast we've covered a whole different range of Science and
Engineering topics we thought for this m on episode that talking about this particular thing was particularly relevant it kind of fits with how we found some of our information for the podcast over the years was quite relevant so Antonia start with you what have you got to say about this so this topic I wanted to bring up because I heard a very extreme case of you can learn anything on the internet whether you should or not is another problem people were exposing military Secrets
specific design components about military aircraft or military vehicles because they wanted to prove some knowledge that they had to get clout about gaming okay that is um a very odd reason for breaking what I assume is the official Secrets act or whatever the equivalent is from their country yes so in this case this was from the US army knowledge base yeah it was shared in a forum that you do have to join in a group but it could go elsewhere couldn't it so they were sort of talking about
this game that they were playing and someone said oh I don't believe the plane in the game should be able to do that and then someone was like well actually in real life I have all this knowledge from the Army and it can or can't do that that seems a very quick way to get fired yeah and it's not the only time it's happened you can imagine that there's a very good reason that information isn't just like out in the wild for all to see I you kind of summed it up quite nicely there I guess your
science communication background might offer some insight into what the internet can or maybe can't tell us yeah it's funny in terms of science communication because I can tell you what I know or I like receive papers from researchers and then I can break it down for you and tell you what I know so you can learn that sort of thing on the internet and also at work we have this uh like special component of one of our email newsletters called we have answers so if you've got those funny shower
thoughts that a lot of people have like uh why do my fingers go wrinkly in the bath or what animal has the most valuable blood um stuff like that like we've got answers we can explain things like we've thought of these weird things that you can learn which is quite fun how do you put a value animal blood oh Laura I've got the article for you this is not a thing I've ever thought about by the way it's not the kind of research that I've done working with blood products
but do you want me to spoil it for you or do you want to read the article um I feel like I have to know now go on and tell me it's the horseshoe crab and why is it so valuable basically they have blue blood which is quite hard to say and it's like super important in the creation of vaccines oh um because they it's like copper Rich uh that makes it icy blue color and they've got like different ways of like fighting infection and stuff they don't have white blood cells they have like
different cells that detect bacterial I guess toxins oh okay well now I want to know even more but I feel like I might get so distracted by that that we stop talking about things the internet can tell us but that just proves you can learn anything on the internet like on this podcast oh I don't know if you can learn absolutely anything though I mean there must be things the internet doesn't know right but there's also a whole host of available information I suppose it has
to be relevant to someone else I guess it depends like what you yeah want to learn like I've used the wealth of the inter many times to learn stuff like uh video editing or like Photoshop hacks or like if you want to do something in a program I guess it's a bit like the video games in that like someone's probably done it before so you type it into Google and a handy little video comes up from YouTube that says oh you want to make something black and white in Photoshop these are the buttons you
need to press in the audio you need to press them it's true you can find a lot of things I've used it to search up how how to use different Excel formulas and then remind myself how to use those Excel formulas I've forgotten but sometimes there were too many different options like someone's written like five different ways to do it and you realize actually none of them are exactly what I was searching for and sometimes it's just better to learn from someone else
who has experience you know you talk about Photoshop I remember struggling a lot with using Photoshop and another Adobe program for photo editing and then I just did a 1H hour session with someone else in the photography society that taught me everything that I needed to know for a long time I guess people have different learning styles right like some people learn better face to face having someone sat next to you to explain it to you can work for some people much better than like just
watching a video and copying what they're doing I mean am I even really learning it or am I just temporarily gaining knowledge to fix that problem like will I remember that in the future maybe maybe not that's a learning model though isn't it that you have different ways to grade how much you've learned s first is like memorization being able to copy and then being able to teach and explain it to someone else is like top tier I could probably explain it to someone else now but only because I've
learned it off the YouTube see you wonder you want teach one to parro a phrase from gra anomy I don't think if I saw one learn one teach one I could do uh what do they always do appendectomies or stuff like that no definitely not I find that I'm assuming they're bridging some useful things that surgeons do to learn I think if you did one surely you then can't teach one surely but you need that physical practice I suppose like just having watch someone yeah but only doing
it once um I think yeah practice is key people get over confident though I presume that you couldn't learn how to do an appendectomy from the internet but you could probably watch a video of one but then people get confident and they learn like um how to fly a plane like the simul a things are mind blown to me and then people go off on like mad joints like Joy rides and try and steal planes from airports and like convince that they can fly them because they've
done it online on these video games I suppose that's where that military secret came into use is like how realistic is the simulation yeah if you had all the computing power that you could simulate it and there's examples where people have used games to train people for real jobs I've always struggled a bit with gaming and I think part of it is because you don't get that physical feedback you're sitting in a static room looking at a screen um you know those games like if you're like you
know playing ultimate frisbee or something or some game where you have to get a frisbee into a net and it you have different courses and it gradually gets harder I'm terrible at that frisbee golf yeah cuz you know just putting your hand in a different position and seeing the thing on the screen isn't the same as doing it in real life so I instantly get bored and fed up yeah I guess it probably can't teach you like physically how to hold a frisbee or like maybe it could teach you
how to play a song but if your technique for like how you hold your hands on the guitar is wrong then maybe you're going to struggle yeah I find it really useful for like how to do something to like mechanically fix a push bike I don't remember it necessarily unless I do it a lot but it's really useful for I have this one specific problem someone has shown me how to fix it great move on oh Chris is always watching videos of like how to replace your tires when they have
a puncher or how to like get the rims back over always a massive FF but wouldn't it be better if someone was just there to tell you like how much pressure to apply well or to do it for you cuz I'm terrible I'd rather figure those things out myself I think too much pressure having someone watching me knowing that I'm going to do something wrong that's true could be quite judgy yes and a good teacher shouldn't be judgy right getting it wrong is part of how you figure out
how to do it right and they should support that it depends on what kind of teacher they are I suppose but I guess like the point of like having someone with experiences if they're a good teacher they might be able to sort of adjust things in a way that doesn't give you bad feedback you know that they could see you're about to do make a mistake that is irreversible they can stop you yeah but I'm the sort of person that would be quite cautious and think if I'm definitely going to break this I
will just take it to someone else to fix yeah I will probably do that too yeah I guess it depends what it is I mean I'm I reading a lot of stuff as well to watching videos obviously I'm not going to read how to fix my bike when it's easier to see someone doing it but learning about about really esoteric science say or something that's not in my field reading a textbook or some research papers I often find more useful than listening to a video or listening to a podcast I wonder if maybe that
brings us on to things that maybe you can't learn cuz if that's the Practical stuff there's learning about science or engineering that's a little bit different I can't think of a very good example from my own career at the minute but Ellie can you think of something where it's been useful talk to a scientist or read some background information on your science communication stuff it's quite tricky because unless you have a base knowledge it's always going to be harder right and
often I write stuff that I don't necessarily know the full ins and outs so often I will speak to researchers and go straight to the source of whoever's written a paper and say just tell me how it started that's my favorite question to ask someone how did you get to this point where you thought I'm going to write a paper about this because often that is the context that I'm missing because I don't know why they even thought to do that in the first place sort of like what makes it special yeah
or just how did you come up with this like were you out on a walk one day and you saw a frog and you thought why is it up a tree or you know like just how did you get here and then I can dig into the details okay well then you this is why you wanted to find out what you wanted to find out how did you do it what was the experiment you know what are the results all the rest of it but I guess reading their research paper online was a starting point for that conversation
it gave you enough information to then go and ask them some intelligent questions oh hopefully that's what I strive for but there's also I mean I guess if you're trying to learn anything on the internet you can also use tools like chat GPT and Ai and all of that sort of thing to make it a bit easier for you I mean they're very good language models that break down scientific papers and stuff like that well I would treat those with a bit of caution though I've seen instances where
someone has put some very sensible text into an AI to then summarize it in a slightly different way and it's gotten the phrasing very slightly wrong so it hasn't actually made sense I mean I guess that's good thing about having copy Checkers is that hopefully at least what I'm writing makes sense to at least one or two other people yeah and I still think you need an expert to check the facts I think that's very important I mean I have an example from some of the
conservation work that I've done there's a plant it's called yellow rattle or yellow flag it drops its seeds at the end of the summer and the plant itself actually feeds off grass so it helps suppress the growth of grass it's a it's a parasitic plant and it's really useful in conservation CU then you can help um create Wildflower Meadows because they don't like having a lot of grass around so I wanted to know exactly how long does it take for this um yellow rattle
to go into seed over winter because it needs to be below a particular temperature for a particular amount of time everything online just said sew it for at least four months over winter it needs a period of cold and nothing I could find would give me the specific information I was looking for it was like they'd all used one source of information and then just rehashed it in a different way to come up with some waffly woolly stuff that was really unsatisfying yeah I know
what you mean I think it's funny as well because we get obviously press releases that then everyone else gets so like the guardian or the independent or whoever gets the same information so there is only so many ways that you can say you know x y and Zed is released and then everyone's looking for the hook or the angle that makes it slightly different from everyone else or you have to have some specific knowledge to add yourself exactly or just go to the researcher as
you might have done or I would do and ask them yeah absolutely I did find the answer in a research paper finally it was 8 weeks at 4° C when they did experiments in the lab that's what it took for the plant to Germany you should publish that Laura no it's already been published oh write it in a forum so everyone can access it yeah I mean it did take me a while to find that and it was quite a lot of effort to dig and find a summary because I couldn't access the entire
Journal article so yeah I think maybe maybe it would be useful for people to have that information out those General pieces of information Works in general but when we have like weird seasonal changes you can't apply that because we're getting slightly warmer weather for winter or exaggerated other Seasons so having that specific information is so useful exactly what if we then end up having to germinate all yellow rattle in an artificial environment because the winter
temperatures are too warm yeah it could come to that that's not unlikely so that that is something that frustrates me as well is like not only just every one writing an article based on the same Source information which was a press release which generally has like some key facts and then what I find is just a lot of waffle in the rest of the article um is when people are generating new articles to stay on top of the search end and optimizers so they are rewriting
articles that already exist and not necessarily going back to the original Source material so it's like second or third fourth hand information by that point and this is tricky for me because this is sometimes part of what I do is that we write articles to be at the top of you know search engines like that's what we're trying to get that first place on Google I mean it depends what you're writing about but a lot of the information is already out there so I'm trying to write it in a way that is
engaging and different and will also hit certain criteria to means that Google will like it and therefore put it higher up I mean I try and go back to things like research papers I guess is the most obvious one I guess they're the primary sources of what we know about usually it's animals that I write cuz you're a zoologist so you got the background because I'm a zoologist so yeah why wouldn't I makes sense yeah it doesn't mean that that information is not already out there I suppose it's just
presented in a different way I have this exact problem at work in my job trying to make things more energy efficient and giving my advice to companies the information is largely out there so again I'm just bringing that information into one place for them to make decisions or actually put into action plan some of the information is 20 years old or before where do I find the original information it's just experience that people had published in an article and then because we're all companies we
don't actually share sources because we want to make it seem like we found that out ourselves oh so you sort of um you've got your own sort of proprietary database of information that no one else can see but also it's different as well because you're a business right you're trying to you know make money at the end of the day you want people to pay for your expertise so regardless of the if the information is elsewhere it's worth it for the company that wants to employ
you to go straight to you because you're making it you know nice and accessible for them I guess it's also a shortcut like they don't have to read everything that is not necessarily exactly what is relevant to them yeah just easier and I guess time is money right so it's worth it to pay for you to do that than for them to sit for hours reading all the things that they could yeah it's just something that I find interesting that like some of the work that I do is not that
novel yet it is still not done so I guess there's a value in what I do by regurgitating information that's why you get right apparently so sounds like we're all in a similar sort of business we all kind of synthesize information in a particular way for a particular audience that they can take in because it matches either some some need of theirs or some particular way of learning something I think so it is like reframing the information or pulling out more useful full information to help
whatever need they have usually for me it's decision making yeah and I guess you said a lot of this information is out there anyway but presumably you go to a reputable source for that information you don't find you know this article that Joe blogs wrote on medium when they don't have the background in whatever the article is meant to be about and then trust it you look at it and go well this isn't your background so I think you've got that information from somewhere else I'm not entirely
sure that I trust that you've understood it yeah so in my case I use industry sources whether they're supplies of equipment they say the best case scenario so then you kind of find other energy managers experiences yeah so it's a bit of a mix of people with the right experience like you said information that is put there from someone and then seeing how much they overlap or how much they don't overlap yeah so you make your judgment on knowing what is a reputable
source and what isn't yeah I guess Ellie it must be the same for you in your job you must have like people you know fact Checkers and people that make sure that what you written does match what the original research I can't say that word research article said yeah absolutely everything that I write is copy check and fact checked by at least one editor and it's interesting because they'll come back to me if they think what you've written is total rubbish they will say is this what you meant or
actually there were 17 frogs in the study not 15 so there is like a process of going back and forth to make sure that it's correct also you only know what you know at the time sometimes papers get redacted uh get withdrawn so then we write in the article that it's been taken down or we write something wrong I mean we're only human and then later on realize our mistake and write Corrections at the bottom of articles but we do put uh processes in place to ensure that that doesn't happen too
often and I guess science is all about figuring out what's right and what's wrong anyway so I can see how a study would then find some more information to go actually what we said then isn't quite right or it turns out the protocol that we used then wasn't particularly accurate so sorry about that well it's like today we I wrote about um funnel web spiders so there was the Sydney Sydney funnel web spider is like one of the most deadly spiders in the world and they did more research on it and
discovered that there's actually three species so what they were calling one species that looked quite different individually is actually three species and then those three species look quite similar when you take them out if you see what I mean I do I've always found how they definitely decide that a species is a species to something that looks very similar very odd because to me it seems and I did do some anthropology at University but it does seem kind of arbitrary in some usually
very tiny morphological differences and in this case it was Tiny morphological differences on the genitalia of these spiders as well as DNA analysis uh to back it up but I thought I'm not getting that close if I find one of these I am off and uh but no it was really interesting and the thing is like we've written previously about the spider because it's quite famous for being quite deadly but it doesn't necessarily mean that what we wrote before was wrong because we didn't know that then yeah
it's how science works it's an update yeah I wanted to ask more about this the spiders like do those variations change how deadly it is well this is the thing so they have a antivenom for this spider because people do get bitten and no one's died since they made this antivenom which is pretty good but now that they've separated these species into three species they're going to make I think the plan is to make an antivenom for like each one so that like it might have different
slightly different properties like there's nothing wrong with the antivenom they have now but they could in theory make it better yeah but I guess if that's some of the sort of the sciency facts that you can find ways of figuring out if that is actual science fact or just made up is I guess I mean to be fair it's probably all made up to an extent right because they're deciding the categories they're deciding how related it has to be to be a new species all of it is made up so it's kind of how
much do we agree on you know we have a consensus that these are the species we're going to name for sure in like sustainability you kind of go here's the standard we think you should use and then someone will go I don't think that standard really applies for everything so I'm going to make a slightly different standard based on that standard then you don't get a consensus anymore because you can't compare the results between standards but I guess there expert opinion versus like
scientific fact or you know scientific theories that haven't been disproven whereas it depends on how much experience you have to judge whether people should be doing a certain thing as in sustainability and those opinions probably exist as a spectrum online whereas scientific fact is scientific fact and if you're getting that wrong you probably shouldn't be talking about that particular science thing but then there's what we were talking about further up like learning a new skill
like learning how to fix my bike from looking at a YouTube video how do you know if you're doing that well Antonio you were talking about getting an expert to like look over your shoulder and tell you whereas I don't like that but then I suppose like what's the alternative I guess if you're not fixing your bike well then you'll know because you won't be able to go anywhere on your bike exactly how much does it matter I suppose if you were Plastering Plastering a wall yes Plastering wall
yeah which needs to be really smooth and I assume has quite a lot of skill involved can you learn that from the internet CU that would be really handy because plasters are expensive but again it depends what is your criteria like how smooth does it need to be exactly when I do it myself I just kind of whack it on there and sand the back of it and it it's not particularly smooth but then it didn't really cost me much if I wanted a really smooth wall I think I
would going to a skilled person that can do it more quickly than I can I suppose it depends on time as well like technically maybe you could learn to plaster from the internet but then are you learning to plaster as well as the person that you would have hired to do the job I wonder if there are any online courses that an expert will sit and watch you through a camera doing something and they'll tell you that you're doing it right or doing it wrong or tell you should just like the angle
of your wrist or something you have like online lessons for like singing or musical instruments presumably and then they would be able to see you doing it and know that you were doing it not as well as you should be perhaps yeah that would probably work better for musical instrument or you know like yoga or something than it would for plastering a wall but like like a language you could definitely learn a language online the internet could teach you a language I
reckon this is where I'm like is it the internet or is it people who have contributed to it like if someone had made all the voice clips and then even made I don't know even software to be able to listen back and yes that is accurate enough you know it matches the yeah I know how good dingo's listening skills are I used to get really cross in lockdown because I'd be trying to learn Spanish on dualingo and you have to say stuff into your phone and then it's like no you should have
said it better or you know more Spanish and then you find yourself putting on like a really over exaggerated Spanish accent to try and get the machine to accept it whereas you think a teacher would have just said yes that's fine let's move on or would have said you're doing it too far you know wrong and you should say it like this maybe so you think the teacher's probably better than that AI feedback loop that I guess you guess I would I would hope so is it yeah
is it AI I don't know actually how do lingo works it must be something like that surely I would guess so if it's listening to what you're saying listening and invited commas there and then giving you feedback it must have some sort of voice recognizing pattery thing are you saying saying that's not AI That's just an algorithm Antonio when I when I was learning I can't remember what language it didn't feel very smart well for May I think it probably isn't depends how well has been drained
how much would it matter to a native speaker well CU yeah there were different accents and things and it's kind of obvious to a native got a strange accent you're not from round there so yeah it probably wouldn't matter I think maybe Jingo was getting a bit too hung up on you trying to speak like a local I was just trying to keep my hearts that what really frustrated me about duelingo if you get it wrong three or four times in a row it takes away all your hearts
and you have to wait a time period uh to replenish them before you can have another go I was too cheap to play for the premium one but oh well I think if I really wanted to learn Spanish I probably wouldn't uh pin all my hopes on duelingo okay so this is maybe a duelingo specific complaint is that I don't know if its way of teaching was a good way it depends what you're trying to achieve I mean it's better than nothing I suppose but I don't think it's it's not a substitute for going to like
a language school no and to change topic quite a lot I imagine there are other very specific things that it can't tell you like you know how many VGA cables do I have in my house and why do I still have them I don't think I have a monitor that would need VGA input I think that's an interesting one I think maybe the internet can't tell you everything about you personally like it doesn't know how many VGA cables you have in your house it doesn't know you know what time you
fed the dog or something like that unless you've shared it but what if it had enough data points that it could say on average a person of this demographic would have this many VGA cables and then o with a percentage certainty that's where you fall it could have a strong enough guess maybe maybe someone has done a study or crowdsource sort of information cuz I'm sure I'm not the only person with a stupid number of redundant cables in my house that I should really go and recycle I've
definitely got a few but I guess then that means the internet is collecting like more data and trying to find potentially more sophisticated ways of analyzing or processing it to give you something meaningful out of that very strange data set of cable hoarding I can't imagine there's that much information on cable hoarding to even like train it on but maybe maybe I'm wrong maybe there is well would it be easier to simulate or to actually I don't know get a satellite image and try
to how could someone remotely find hack into Laura's personal you know phone or something and then use the internet to look through and see how many VGA cables you've got lying around something like that something silly something yeah I hope things don't do that I guess maybe a slightly more sensible example is H maybe if you try to go back to the sort of the plastering thing could it like come up with some sort of 3D render of you doing your Plastering like motion capture oh yes
and it can get like a complete 3D wireframe or whatever you would need of you like putting you in a video game almost and then someone can look at it or you can make up an algorithm that would say you know you're doing you hate video games I know but for the purposes of this it could be useful if it can give me meaningful feedback from my 3D model of me Plastering what if it could project onto the wall exactly like what movements you should be making yeah The
Strokes I'm imagining this like um a bit like Wii tennis when it like told you what to do like a tutorial and you have to you know like wave it over your head left or right and then move it up and down oh bring back the Nintendo Wii and Microsoft Connect right see again you're losing me cuz it's a gaming thing we're going to make a fortune on our new plast how to plaster game is going to be a bestseller if all only any of us knew how to plaster in the first place we
might have a better chance but there is are saying that if you want to find the right answer on the internet you post the wrong answer oh I've heard of this where you like you people trying to so solve like coding problems and stuff or just in general because people want to prove you wrong oh that they'll give you the correct answer they love to make themselves look more intelligent than other people I guess yeah does that link back to what you were saying at the top
about um military secrets that were given out when someone was trying to point out whether a game is accurate or not yeah that is possibly the most extreme example because people are going to such lengths to prove they're right that they're basically going to lose a job and potentially be barred from other things in life well it still amazes me that someone would do this because I work for the United Kingdom National nuclear laboratory the lab itself deals with some quite sensitive information I
don't personally C that don't come after me asking me where this thing is but I get quite a lot even though I don't handle that information to be really careful about the information that you are giving out and make sure that the person you're giving it to actually needs to know that so it's just it genuinely amazes me that someone that knows how a fighter jet actually works would give that information out they must have known how how long did it take before they were like oh I shouldn't
have said that I should not have said that and maybe they just figured they won't get found out why would my organization be looking at what I do online apparently they do quite a lot I suppose I mean I live in fear of like breaking an embargo we get all these press releases and all these like papers from journals and I think what if I misread the date and you know wrote a whole article had it all fact checked by my team and we published it before the Embargo lifted I mean
probably realistically nothing that Dreadful would happen because it would be like an animal behavior study and not something groundbreaking but still I would just be so embarrassed more than anything I suppose I guess you the company that you work for would probably get fined and yeah I would would also feel awful like similar from the other side of it from working for UK nnl where I kind of give out that information and I sit there thinking do I really want to press people have like mistakenly
published obituaries about people that aren't dead or made mistakes in that way or like whistleblowing stuff like that that's guess more dangerous yeah sharing news that shouldn't be publicly known yeah or like the state secrets and the like fighter jets I guess it all comes back to that doesn't it no I sometimes wonder how much the internet knows about me and how did it get that information like I'm sure you've all had like a call from an unknown number and it's been
like complete spat and you always ask well how did you get this number is it on some database somewhere that's been leaked somehow I think like it's also what you share as well because I was saying oh the internet you couldn't learn what time Laura fed your dog but if Laura had taken an Instagram story and put it up of being like Oh just giving the dog his breakfast at halfast 8 then we would know that so then you've freely given that information to the internet the more you put on
social media the more people can build up a picture of who you are and the sorts of things that you do I guess you have to be careful what you share but then at the same time to an extent most people are sharing something if you were going for a job interview or something you'd probably go on LinkedIn and look up who was interviewing you or the colleagues at the company and all that sort of thing yep I have internet stalked quite a few people before I met them partly cuz I'm also like really
terrible with names and faces so I will literally find a picture of them and have it on my phone and look around the room if it's someone I've never met before when we're meeting in a public place just so I'm sure that I am meeting the person that I think I'm meeting cuz I get hideously embarrassed otherwise well I think that's also a good thing right like you should look them up and see what they're writing and see especially on a platform like LinkedIn where it is work related you're not like
looking up their personal details to find out where they live or anything like that no and it's information they chose to put out there about what they do so yeah yeah I would say the people that haven't done that I find it a little bit weird that they haven't internet stalk someone before they met I think we were all probably guilty of more internet stalking than we'd like to admit like all people that you know from school or you know people you've lost touch with I suppose it started because
you wanted some connection or you wanted to prepare for something so the intentions were there yeah it wasn't out of malicious um you know intent it was just I guess out of curiosity or preparedness for what they were going to ask you about yeah exactly I feel like we're were all saying we're stalkers we're not we're saying we're we're we're professionals we're just really prepared we're just conscientious isn't it better to get over some of the information that
you should have known for example like what is their relevance to the project that you're going to meet them for yeah yeah and not what's the name of their dog like probably you don't need to know that exactly yeah I feel like we've uh we've kind of deviated quite far from what could we learn about science and engineering and what other useful things could we find on the internet so maybe that is a good place to leave it on what is after all a milestone episode for us
are we all pretty much in agreement that the internet can be great for learning the theory of a practical task like bike maintenance or Plastering but it's maybe not so good for some specific science facts unless you know you can trust the source and get away from that waffly stuff that none of us seem to like yeah I think I agree with that cool so on that note we hope you've enjoyed this episode which has been somewhat factual and somewhat enlightening uh we do tend
to fact check the things that we say before we say them so you can trust us that we've said something that is already out there and known and correct and in that vein if you've liked listening to us for the last it's nearly four years now for our 100 episodes please please please do support us uh and consider adding some money to our tip chart we would very much appreciate it and it would really mean a lot to us to see your support and it helps us actually pay for the hosting of the
podcast yes that is very true it does cost me a small amount of money every year to have all of these episodes online for everyone to listen to and I would very much appreciate a contribution to those costs so thank you and we will see you in the next episode The Views expressed in this podcast belong entirely to the person that said them they do not represent any industry or organization if you enjoyed listening to these views it would really help us out if you could rate US leave a
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