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Hello and welcome to Technically Speaking, where scientists and engineers come together to chat about a common interest, share knowledge, and satisfy some curiosity. I'm Laura, and I'm joined by Antonia and Ellie to talk about the seasons and whether they are different now to when we were little kids. So, Antonia, you were the one that came with this idea that the seasons aren't the same as they used to be. So,
do you want to tell us about it? As far as I can remember, I've lived in the UK and we all learn we have four distinct seasons, spring, summer, autumn, and winter. And I feel like it's not really stuck to it or they're not as different as each other. They kind of blend together. And we get some periods of hot weather in like as early as April this year. And then winter is, you know, we don't get a white Christmas. It's just
kind of wet. I can kind of relate to some of that, but because I've moved around the country a little bit, I'm not too sure if the different areas have got their own different types of seasons anyway, but I do feel like the winter is wetter than it used to be when I lived in the Northeast. Now I'm in the Northwest. Ellie, have you come across any evidence of this from your science journalism that the seasons aren't as distinct as they used to be in the UK or
anywhere else in the world? Yeah, there's this interesting new study from the University of York and the London School of Economics and instead of like a sort of I don't know mathematical shift, it's more of a like conceptual shift in people's minds of like yes, we still have different periods with different daylight lengths, but now it's just hotter like Antonia said in April to October, whereas before it was like you know June and August were the summer months June, July and August and they
are suggesting uh four new types of season instead of the traditional four. Um and these are like either extinct seasons. So there's the suggestion that what we've always known is no longer relevant, emergent seasons which would be the new ones uh that didn't pro previously exist in like an area. and then also arithmic and syncopated seasons which are like different ones like different timings and irregular uh fluctuations.
So yeah, it's pretty interesting. I think there's like a a fundamental difference between how seasons are created now given like astronomy and like the angle of Earth and daylight and stuff versus how we as human beings on Earth are experiencing what we would call typical weather. in August or typical weather in December. Okay. So, you said this was did you say it was a London School of Economics study, not necessarily a climate science study.
Yes. This is like the difference of like this is how people feel or what they're perceiving versus like obviously the day length isn't changing. So like the seasons are mainly controlled by day length and weather, but that is related to like the angle of the earth and sunshine and all of that sort of thing versus like uh something like wildfire season, which is not a strict term in and of itself, is now all year round because all year round is now just hotter. Oh,
okay. You mean like wildfires in California, so you don't tend to have them in the UK? Yeah, not so much in the UK, but yeah, in California, which has always been quite a moderate climate all year round anyway, uh I guess now is even more warm all year round. What causes wildfire? It's like dry and warm. So, yeah, maybe it is something like that.
Antonia, is this sort of helping understand whether it's not just your perception, it's a a genuine thing because we're sort of talking about this the research that Ellie's talking about. He's talking about having this perception. This definitely correlates and it's kind of not reassuring but validating. Yeah. It doesn't feel reassuring at all. No, it's but it it kind of brings more attention to the fact that climate change isn't sometime in the future.
We've we've kind of reached it. We've hit climate change today. Yeah. There are a few like documented news stories about summers getting hotter in the northern hemisphere and this a new record high temperature in continental Europe. So it's all supporting the the fact what you say climate change is here now. It's too late to try and mitigate these immediate effects. We kind of have to live with change and try and mitigate any further effects.
Yeah. And I think I think the adaptation to a societal sort of expectation, but I just think it will definitely have some other effects if um if things just aren't the same because for example, a lot of information is based on history. So we'd have to now go right that might not be applicable today anymore. We might just have to use a even computer modeling try and try and forecast it that way instead of using historic data to create forecasts.
Uh because the historic data don't match with current climate trends. Yeah. Well, all you see now if historic data is lower, right? Like all we ever get is that was the hottest July on record or the hottest temperature ever reached in Europe was 2021. So then it's like, well, historically it just wasn't that hot, so then it doesn't doesn't line up. Yeah, we keep reaching new records. Like every year is becoming a record year. I wonder if that's true for the other
ones, though. Is that true for like when is typical rainfall? I guess winter or snowfall. Oh, is it getting wetter every December? Yeah, I tried looking at uh some of the journal articles from scientists to see if there was anything definitive about the UK. And it might just been that I wasn't using the best search terms, but I didn't really find anything particularly comprehensive, which surprised me a little bit because we're so interested in the weather and
the effect it has on us. We know climate change is a thing and you know, we we constantly use the weather as a as a start of a conversation. Oh, exactly. Yeah. I did find something in a statistical journal that kind of supports Antonia's idea about the seasons are less distinct. It took data going back to the 1700s. And I don't know where they got that data from necessarily. I guess they inferred it
from natural records. And they did say that the summers and the winters are less different now than they were in the 1700s. So there you go. There does seem to be some truth. Although Antonia is not that old. I wonder if they got the temperature data from the 1700s through like diary entries or or was there actually a scientist recording temperature back then? I hope someone was probably monitoring it. There's like long-term studies of like people just looking at the flowers
in their garden. So, someone was probably recording the temperature. Yeah, that would be important for if you're growing food or plants, wouldn't it? Absolutely. It's so strange this idea of like the seasons changing because that is such a part of like rural life in England of like you eat potatoes in the winter and you eat no strawberries in the summer because that's when they grow. So if we're having the seasons
change will be longer. I mean it's a bit different now because you can go to sainsburries at any time and buy strawberries whenever you want. But like this is the point is that they're not necessarily going to be flown in from Spain. And they're grown. They could be grown here all year round. Yeah. I suppose we already have fought against the seasons by buying food from other climates essentially. Yeah. Isn't that the problem, isn't it? Like our love of having strawberries all
year round has contributed this. Think of the air miles. Think of the carbon. I don't think they taste as good in other seasons. I'll be honest. No, you're right. You are right. British strawberries grown in the summer. It's peak strawberry are just tastier. But then again, if strawberries are ripened by long hot sunny periods, right? So, climate change might actually be helpful there. We can get strawberries grown in the UK. More strawberries.
I didn't know that. But that also correlates with my strawberries getting too soggy and not fruing yet. They've just had a single flower and very fungally leaves. That's upsetting. It is. Then again, if winters are also getting warmer, I can see that that would be a bad thing because some plants need a cold period before they'll germinate, don't they? Yeah. It's like garlic when you put it in your fridge cuz you want to keep it fresh and then it starts sprouting.
So that's why we don't keep some fruit and veg in the fridge because actually it triggers something in them like growth, I would guess. So yeah, it seems counterintuitive though because generally you want warmer things because then at warmer temperatures cuz then you get more energy and that's what you use for for growing. So or or chemical reactions. Yeah. But I guess some plants have evolved to take advantage of a niche when there's cold weather. So maybe there is less competition with plants.
So there's an evolutionary advantage to them germinating after a cold period. They get ahead of the other plants. Yeah. Because the frost the frost kills them off, right? So, they have to wait until it's not frosty anymore and then germinate because if you germinate too early and it's frosty, then you lose all that growth and then then you die. Now, I did find one study about something called mouse acres, which is essentially a weed grows throughout
Europe, I think. Um, but there's some natural variation on when that germinates after a cold period, which I thought was quite encouraging because it means species are a bit more resilient than you'd think. And the mouse crest in particular germinated at higher cold temperatures than people thought they would. I guess that's also the thing is that we don't know, right? Like it's never
happened like this before. So all we have are predictions of what could happen, but we don't know for certain that mouse crest wouldn't survive if it got hotter in whatever season or colder. Well, people would have tried to grow it in other climates, right? And it might be a struggle, but you know, there'll always be the odd few that kind of make it. So I think that's why there's guidelines. So when I buy plants, it says generally hardy or could be, you know,
least helpful advice. It's more of a try it and see. Yeah. Yeah. I guess it's true cuz people like try grow like I don't know lemons and stuff in the UK, but typically it's not so good unless you grow them indoors or wine. You know, there are now wine regions in the UK. Now that is a positive change though. I think it's probably bad because it's like shifting, right? It's not we've got all the wine production we had in France and Spain and South Africa that we had
before. It's it's now too hot in those regions. So, they have to come up to us to have the similar temperatures. You've got to wonder beyond plant life as well, though. What about animals that migrate? Are they going to be affected? Well, I was trying to look into this and what I could find was that it didn't
seem to be a temperature change. It was mainly related to day length, which I find really interesting because it's like they have this sort of there's a German word for it that I now can't remember, but it's like basically fidgetiness that they know biologically that they should migrate and then that coupled with like external factors and the change in day length like sets them off on their journey. But that wouldn't change because obviously that's predetermined and it's not something
we're influencing. But what would change is the temperatures from where they started and where they get to. And I think they do it mainly for food availability, right? So if now suddenly you're migrating from a cold place to a warm place for winter and there's loads of like yummy tasty bugs, why would you ever go back if it's just temperate all year round and there's a food availability all year round? But then I think the light levels will still
change. So that would still be biologically triggered to go home or back to wherever your initial place was. Oh, that's interesting. Interesting. But then it could be too hot when you get there or there might not be any bugs to eat which would be a disaster. I did read one study about the resilience of whales that migrate and they did seem to be affected by the temperature. So they'd migrate earlier in the year because the water was warmer. Oh, that's interesting because that is
what they are looking for, right? Cuz a lot of them go up from like Antarctica up past like Australia to get to the warmer waters to breed and then they go back. Yeah. and they looked at two slightly different species and they said it's not a problem yet because they're not currently overlapping the time when they're in the warm water, but they're becoming very slightly different phases.
So eventually they will start to clash and then I guess there's not enough krill or whatever they're eating to sustain both populations. Yeah. So it's reassuring that they can respond so quickly to the changing climate, but they're responding in different ways, which is good and bad, I guess. I because we were having this discussion about what we're doing to the oceans. If say krill was better in warmer temperatures, then what if we got too many whales in the oceans? More whales.
We're still repairing the damage we did to whales. So I reckon more whales is fine. We can take it. And also there's such like a benefit to all other species. Like whale poop is so important for the ocean that I reckon more whales is good. There must be like a critical mass of whales, but I don't think we're there yet. Yeah. not after the whaling industry and climate change and fishing. Yeah,
I remember now. This was a while ago and I couldn't actually find the name of the documentary, so that's unhelpful, but I want to say it was either on the BBC or Channel 4 and it was about how difficult it is to predict snow in Manchester specifically because it's in cuz it's not quite coastal. It's just a little
bit inland. Yeah. And it's in the northwest where there's typically a lot of rainfall and it's kind of kind of flat kind of almost I guess what I don't know what the ge geographical term is cuz it's not on mountains it's not quite a valley it's just flat just like lowlying I guess. Yeah. And I wonder if we'll have other situations where simply it's just too hard to predict what weather is doing. I mean how is forecasting done now
right? like they have satellites monitoring things she says not being a meteorologist but like that's still that process will still be up there so like however they predict temperatures and stuff now I guess they can do it in the future it just presumably will get better slash will we be able to know further in advance what it will be like 3 months from now or will it be too unpredictable will it be too temperamental maybe this is a case for AI to spot trends because I want to say models
generally use historic data because trying to model it from the ground up and from the theoretical basis can be too computational heavy. So I guess going back to that study that Ellie mentioned near the start about changing our relationship with the seasons. I guess you just have to sort of learn to expect the unexpected in that case if we can't really predict it.
I guess that all means that we'll be having a picnic in the park in December for Christmas dinner rather than cooking like a full roast cuz you're not going to want to eat like well I'm not going to want to eat roast turkey but you know what I mean like a full roast in the height of August now does not does not sound appealing like heavy heavy warm food. Yeah, but a picnic lovely I'll have a picnic for Christmas tea in the park.
People already do this say in Australia cuz their seasons are backwards to to the UK. So they have a barbecue for for Christmas. That sounds great. What would get me though is that this thing comes I keep going on about this about daylight because it would be hot but it would be December. So at 4:00 in the afternoon it would be pitch black but boiling but 30°. But maybe it wouldn't then if the sun's gone down. Think it would get cold really quickly like being in a desert. M yeah, it's true.
But also with the expectations of climate change, we're only expecting say like a few degrees increase average. I don't think we're going to be getting quite as hot as 30 in in winter, thankfully. No, I've already experienced some February where you can walk around in shorts and t-shirt in like one of the the valleys near me and I live in the Lake District which has got its own
microclimates anyway. But it just seems a bit odd that you can just be there like it's summer in February in the north of England. I'm sure we had a year where there was like 26 27° in February for like 3 or 4 days and everyone was wearing shorts and t-shirts. So weird. Yeah. And it's it's meant to be like round about freezing instead. Yeah. I guess like on a social level, you'd just be doing different stuff. Like what do you normally do in February? Go skiing with your family.
Some people do, but that wouldn't be a thing, right? If it's so hot that you're walking around in shorts and t-shirts, there's not going to be any snow. No, not unless you want to travel. I think there might still be on the north side. Yeah. I guess it depends on the like very specific areas like the coldest areas now cuz the temperature will still be quite cold at the top of the mountain and if it's always in shade.
Yeah. So there there's a little bit, but obviously it's not going to be as as much as before. Now you've got me worried about the camping that I do as well now if it's going to get hotter and potentially drier. Um I've already had a few instances over the years where there's been some unexpected weather. So it was April and I was on a mountain and it wasn't meant to snow and it did.
Oh no. Yeah. And I just had enough gear to not be too cold and then beat a hasty retreat cuz the wind picked up as well. And I got down at the valley and again it was like 20° and ridiculously hot. I feel like April is the most contankerous month because it can really go like Easter can be gloriously sunny or it can just pee it down the whole time or it can snow like all bets are off in April. Anything can happen.
Yeah. It used to just be called um April showers but I feel like April was really dry this year. Yes. I'm trying to think back what I was doing in April. I was on holiday with you and it was it was wet. It was wet in uh Monorca, but I don't know if that's typical for that time of year. But also just before there was a bit of a heat wave and so it prepared us for what was supposed to be hot water hot weather in Monora and it was colder wet.
This is the thing now is like oh going on holiday doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to have better weather than you are in the UK which I feel like was always a given when I was a child. May maybe that means we'll actually holiday in our own country and fly less. Well, maybe more people will come to us if it's too hot. You know, if it's 48 degrees in Italy, that is unbelievably hot to do anything. So, if you want a nice, you know, 27 to 30, come to the UK for your holiday.
It's a good point. And this was something I also thought was, will we still have autumn? Because is it the cold that triggers trees to lose their leaves? It's got to be daylight, length, surely. I think some research I saw said it was falling temperatures and it did. I'm pretty sure it specified a biological mechanism, but I can't remember off the top of my head. But they just they stopped making chlorophyll. I guess it
becomes energy inefficient to do so. And I guess maybe it's just the falling temperature ties in with having shorter days, at least where we are anyway. Yeah. I think it's like a storage system, right? Like all summer the tree tries to make enough sugars to last through winter so that when it loses its leaves it's got that storm. Right. So it's not shortening days that trigger them to stop generating chlorophyll but it's actually falling temperatures. Well, I think it might be a bit of both.
Which came first? I think it's never just one thing. I don't think you can ever say that. It's usually like a combination of factors about how it interacts with its environment. All this is making me think that nature might actually be more able to adapt to the effects of climate change than humans will be because we'll all sit here going, "All right, it's not like it used to be when I were a kid. We're so bitter. Plants and animals will just get on with it."
I mean, they've got no choice, right? Like, not that we do either, but we can at least, you know, you can wear shorts and t-shirt, you can buy a portable air conditioning unit, you can do whatever. Like, a tree doesn't really have a choice. Either it's too hot for the tree to survive or it's, you know, coping. I suppose they also don't really have the capability to complain about it whilst doing something about it. Yeah. There's nothing they can do.
No, it depends on their genetic diversity whether they can they've got some mechanism in there that's been lying dormant that will suddenly start to be activated by the change of the seasons. Um, which I guess means there's a limit to how much disturbance nature can tolerate because it can only change so quickly, can't it?
Yeah. I mean, evolution is incredibly slow, which is the whole problem with with climate change, global warming, is that it species can't adapt fast enough to the rate of increase that we have at the moment in terms of global temperature rise. Wow, that was depressing sentence. I was just wondering if we wanted to leave it there on a note. We can bring it back. We'll be all drinking wine and holidaying on the beach in October in the UK. In the UK, but everywhere else, questionable.
Well, yeah. I did a a podcast for work about whether we're living through the sixth mass extinction and uh the professor was saying that like if you're in the UK, yes, your summers get hotter and it's all quite nice. If you're in the Mediterranean, your summers get hotter and okay, it's a bit uncomfortable, but you can manage, but if you're in North Africa or below, your summers get hotter and you die because it's too hot. So, yeah, it's pretty
pretty depressing. So, we're not bringing this background to to a happy whimsical ending. It tried, but it didn't happen. Do we want to leave it there then on that bit of a bombshell that we're doomed? Yeah. Well, things need to change quite rapidly. We need to change how society does things as a whole on a global scale to avoid lots of people being not just uncomfortable but having their society destroyed. Yeah, that is the thing that uh the
professor was saying as well. He was like the the key difference between all the previous mass extinctions and this one is the fact that we are now conscious life fors capable of changing the things that have made this process happen in the first place. This is not the result of like a big asteroid or volcanoes. This is within our control human-made climate change and therefore seasonal change and we can change it back.
So what we're saying is everyone needs to start adapting now and just get on with it. Yeah, that sounds a bit more positive than we're all doomed. We were doomed and then we figured it out. That's what we want to hear. Mobilized to sort out this problem we've created. That would be nice, wouldn't it? Yeah. And then we can have some wine on the beach and a barbecue for Christmas. So, it sounds like that's a good place
to leave it. So, having started off with Antonia's speculation that the seasons aren't the same as they used to be when she was a child about 20, 30 years ago, we've sort of found some evidence that says, "Yeah, they're really not." And it's to do with climate change. And although nature may be fine to an extent, human society needs to change quite drastically to adapt to this change in nature that we've created. So there you go. I hope you've enjoyed listening to this and uh we'll see you
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