Hi everyone. Welcome to Tech Talk, a podcast where Amit and I talk about all things tech. We don't just talk about tech. We talk about how the tech impacts our lives and the society overall. Today we want to talk about ransomware. We've talked about deep fakes before, today would be a complimentary episode to talk about ransomware and how it affects everyone. And how we should be careful and vigilant to protect ourselves on the internet. Looking forward to learn as well as talk about ransomware.
Please start us off with what is ransomware.
Hey, Thanks. Thanks a lot for the introduction Ransomware I felt was quite an important topic. We have read about it in the news. We heard about NHS under a ransomware attack because they were using, old Windows XP machines and they had a attack. I don't know what happened. Did they actually pay the money or not.
But essentially that's what triggered this idea that we have talked about a lot of things, but there are some tech or there are some things which have a very dangerous consequence and ransomware is one of them. And in essence, ransomware comes from the word ransom and ransomware essentially means that you need to pay money, in lieu of the information on your machine, it could be a laptop, it could be a computer, it could be a mobile device, it could be anything.
And essentially what happens in ransomware attack is your phone or your laptop or your computer gets locked and you're not able to access any of your files. And in order for you to get access, you have to pay a ransom. Instead of something happening in the real world, it still happens in the real world, but it is got to do with the data on your machine.
That is actually really interesting and thank you for that example as well. There are many ways of being scammed and threatened and bullied on the Internet. And all the things that we've been facing in the last century, physically in the real world now has found its digital version on the internet and it is inevitable.
There will always be people who would try to take advantage of new technologies so in this scenario, the data that you own, or that is important to for you to have access to, you get locked out of it. So it gets kidnapped away. And the only way you can regain access to that data or platform is by paying the malicious person who locked you out of it.
I didn't actually even know about the incident at NHS, but this reminds me of, for those of you who has seen Grey's Anatomy, there was an episode where this exact thing happens that the whole computing systems in that hospital all the. Doctors and hospital personnel gets locked out of, and then they demand a huge sum of money to get that released. it's very interesting and it is happening in real world as well as we are seeing it in the media.
Yeah, the interesting part of ransomware is that it's not there are attackers who are trying to target you specifically but there are there are so many people connected to the internet. So there is not a group of people who are sitting there and looking at, Oh, this person is vulnerable. Let's target them. No. They send out a piece of software and they package it in a way that you can accidentally download it or install it on your machine. Now the ways to do that is by a phishing email.
A phishing email is an attack where you're trying to impersonate someone. So say, Rinat sends me an email, and it's actually not from Rinat, it's from someone else, but they make it look like it's coming from Rinat. Or you can say Google. So you get the Google logo, you type all the words that are normally are there in a Google email.
And then you say, Oh, you have forgotten your password or your something is expiring and you have to pay some money to get access or download this file or click on this link. Et cetera, et cetera. So this is a phishing email and when you do something like click a link in the email or download an attachment on that email or go to a website where if you go and you enter some information. Your information gets leaked and that's how the ransomware gets installed on your machine.
Now, there are different things. We are talking about ransomware. We are not talking about viruses. We are not talking about other malicious files because these can damage the data, but it will not prevent you from accessing it. Ransomware prevents everything. You, you can't use your keyboard. You can't use your mouse. You can see that there is a screen a banner that appears on your computer. And then it says in order for you to view the data, pay this much money, normally in cryptocurrency.
So you pay in Bitcoin because then the transaction is anonymous. So you can't actually figure out who the money has gone to. You just know to this wallet, you have to transfer the Bitcoin, but that wallet could be of a person, a company, a group. We don't know. And that's how you go for the attack. So you have a phishing email. The second way is an exploit. It's always recommended that we update our software regularly. Now, why?
Because sometimes there is a vulnerability in the software that gets patched with an update. Patching means you fix the problem. The problem in your operating system or the software that you're trying to use. In case anyone tries to take advantage of that vulnerability in the non upgraded version of the software or the operating system, then that means you can get exploited. So the same thing happened with NHS. Windows 10 was out. They were still using Windows XP.
Microsoft has dropped support for Windows XP a long time back. They don't release any security patches, so if there is a vulnerability in XP, someone can exploit that vulnerability and get access to all the information on the computer. Now, that was exploited to get access and lock all the files. I don't know if they paid the money, but this is a type of extortion. So you have to be very careful of what you're trying to click, where you're going on the web on the internet.
And what are you clicking? Are you downloading a safe file? Because anything can happen. It can download a virus on your machine or it can lock your machine completely.
I hadn't actually thought about all the different types of malicious emails or malicious approaches that you could, we are facing it all every day, but I didn't really think about the categorization the way you just put it Some of them are trying to harm your data or corrupt it but ransomware is different in a way that it will keep the data, but it will lock you out of it. So you can't use anything.
And I imagine that even if you reset your computer or turn it on and off, none of these will help at all. Just to be clear about the severity of this kind of attack. So in our past episodes, we've talked about various ways, how you should be careful on the internet. We've talked about deep fake, we talked about scamming and phishing earlier as well on, on dedicated episodes. So let's just put ransomware in its place among all of these different things.
Ransomware is a piece of software, which you don't want it in your Computing IT systems. Just like virus, you don't want a virus to be in your IT system. And the way ransomware would try and get access to your IT system is similar. A lot of the times it is social engineering, trying to find a way that you unintentionally have it downloaded or installed. It's very rare that they can actually, hack into a secure system unless you provided a way for them to do that.
So this is why it's so important to be aware of all the different ways they are trying to get access to your IT system. And now once they get access, there are different kind of things that this malicious group would want to do. One is to trick you to send money over to them, which is a scam and phishing as we talked about earlier. Maybe say that, there was a unauthorized purchase with your PayPal account and you've got to send money to this account and whatever.
So that's scamming and phishing, et cetera. And then there are ways like viruses, which will actually harm or corrupt your data or your IT system, which is another thing that they will threat you in terms of ransomware. But yeah, we have access and we will delete it or, completely destroy your data if you don't pay up. So that's all of these things are one way or another related. The way ransomware would try and get access to you to your I. T. System is the same as, phishing or scam or whatever.
How a virus gets access. So that's the part we need to be really careful and vigilant. And in order to protect yourself, your assets and your data, which are all very valuable nowadays. even if you are a non techie person, you should have this kind of understanding just so you can protect your assets and property. And, data is a valuable property nowadays anyway as well as your actual physical asset like bank account and money and all the other finance and everything. Everything is online now.
So it's very important even for non techie folks out there, especially a majority of our listeners to be Aware of all the things that can happen and how to protect yourself from it,
When we talk about ransomware we think, okay, why am I getting targeted? But as I mentioned earlier, you are not getting targeted. You just got scammed or you clicked on some link or you downloaded an attachment or you went to a website that was malicious. And the moment you went, you opened something and it downloaded something on your computer. So that's how it happens. So you're not targeted. You just fell a victim. Let's look at what actually happens in a ransomware thing.
So something gets delivered onto your machine. And So you download it, you install, it, gets installed automatically, et cetera, et cetera. So something gets installed on your machine. Once it gets installed, it starts doing various things. So how does the ransomware lock you out? One way is it encrypts all the files on your machine, and encryption means that you're putting it an in an envelope and you're locking it with a code or with a key.
And if you don't have the key, you cannot open the envelope. And that is in a sense, encryption. And it basically means your files are there. You can see it, but you can't open it. So that's one way in, in which ransomware, blocks you access to your files. The other way is putting a lock screen. It locks you out of the system. So whenever you start a machine, it asks you for your username and password. Same thing with your smart devices. So it asks for a fingerprint or a pin code.
That locks you out. So you even cannot get in. So forget about seeing the file. You can't even get in to see the file. Okay, so that's one way. The other way is, it doesn't allow you to boot. So when you switch on the power button, It doesn't load the operating system because that's the first thing that happens. The BIOS starts and it looks at the master boot record and it looks where the operating system is installed. We've spoken about BIOS as well.
So it does all the check and then it tries to load or start the operating system. And in some ransomwares, it prevents this as well. So you can't even now start your machine. You can switch it on, but nothing will load and it'll just show a screen pay this much money. Okay. Now there are different techniques as well. So in, in one technique, you pay the money and you get a key like a code. And you type in the code and then it unlocks everything. It decrypts all the files. It unlocks your system.
It lets you start your operating system. So that's one way. The other way is it will prevent access by showing you a countdown. So it's 10 days. If you don't pay the money in 10 days time, all the data on your computer will be lost forever. So these are different types of ransomware attacks. And we have to be very cautious and aware that this can happen to us. Okay. Normally the things that we read in the media are about big companies.
So a lot of big companies, they get ransomware attacks and then they have to pay money because they have confidential information which they don't want to leak because the other part of ransomware is that they will encrypt your file, they'll download all the file to their machine and then they will say, we will expose all your secrets if you don't pay us the money. So this is a kind of extortion and this is what a ransomware is all about. It's trying to extort money from you.
It could be 0. 015 Bitcoin BTC. That's it. But it's enough to it's enough for a lot of people because they have millions of computers running these ransomwares. So yeah
They could be doing this to so many people. So even a small amount although not small amount for the victim, 1, 000 or pounds, and if they found a hundred victims, that's a hundred thousand dollars or pounds, whatever it's quite a huge sum. And. Again this is what really boggles me that, to, if you agree to pay the ransom, there is no guarantee ever that they will give you the decryption key, or they will not delete your files anyway.
Or even, a likely scenario is that they've just managed to block you out. They haven't even got the power to give you access back. They just need to convince you to send money. And after that, they don't have any care in the world to whether or not you get access to that data, however important it is. The people who can lock out hospitals or NHS out of patient data. And there might be critical patients who might need that information, a surgeon might need to operate in minutes.
And if they're okay to do that, then they don't care about, whether the doctors get those information ever, We're not professional, disaster advisors. So none of those are advice in a professional way.
But what I would do is that it's never worth uh, paying the ransom, because first of all, there is no guarantee you'll get whatever it was taken from you data, whether it's locked out of your computer, whether it's the hardware, if it's an expensive gaming laptop or whatever you're worried about, whether you're going to get that back, or whether you're going to get the data back, or whether or not they're going to expose your secrets.
There is no guarantee of any of that going your way, especially once you've paid, they don't have a lot of information on you, but they do know this for sure that you are the kind of person who will pay. So you're like the prime target to extort you even further because you've already taken their bait. So I would never actually pay the ransom because there is absolutely nothing that to be gained from this scenario. And actually this is from personal experience as well.
When I was a, teenager, when the internet was first about, I've had accounts open with very easy passwords all numbers, et cetera. And that somehow did get leaked. And have I been pwned, has those passwords and I can see. And then once I received these Emails after every few months, I've been receiving these emails, which actually have my, that password.
It's all digits, like very easy, I didn't use that in 15, 20 years now, but I did have that as one of my very first password when I was teenager and internet was new back then. So I see that password in the subject line, all exposed and that kind of does, make you skip your heartbeat a little bit. And then in the message email message body, it says that, we have all of your secrets and apparently we have some of your videos because I know that, no such thing exists.
That's why I could be confident because at the time when I got those emails, I was still a teenager even then. So I would have been quite scared if I, because I know that no such thing exists anyway. So it wasn't possible. It didn't really apply to me. And even nowadays, and sometimes I get like transfer this amount of Bitcoin to this address, and then we won't share your secret videos or whatever to be honest, even if I did have any secret videos, share it all you want, I don't really care.
But again this is really, I can see why. Anyone, any regular person would be really scared and they would do anything. They could have like really secret things that they don't want to be exposed in any way, and they actually don't have anything. These emails that I've received. Then I know that there is nothing.
So these emails are a lot of the times they just have that old password which has been leaked years ago and they're just hanging on to that to make you believe that there is something and they're taking a chance and they're sending these emails to a million people and Out of those million people, that password is actually correct. So if you see your old password and exposed in an email subject line and then say something like that, you are bound to be scared.
So this is why I would advise not ever to give anything because they don't probably have anything anyway. And even if they do, there is no guarantee that they won't share it anyway, right? They're they are malicious people.
So they'll probably enjoy doing that regardless and then the third thing what I would say Which is an actual preventative measure, for an individual for a company They have obviously, cybersecurity advisors, etc but for, on a personal level, what I would say, and this is something I do as well, your data is important and valuable. It could be like you have a invention idea. You want to patent it and you've written it all down. You've done the drawings and everything.
And that is in your computer. And it is obviously a secret. You don't want the world to know about it. And there could be many other secret or valuable assets stored in your computer. And what I do is on a periodic basis is have an offline backup. It's not a cloud backup, not an online backup. It's not even attached to electricity in any way. So definitely do this Set yourself up every quarter of a year or every six months or even yearly if you can't be bothered with it too frequently.
But I would say every quarter or six months is a good time. You basically take all of your data by a really big storage external drive, take all of your data, copy everything and have that external drive disconnected from power and separate. obviously they can say, still be extortionate by, saying that we'll share your data. That's one way that will still remain open.
But the other way is that, okay, you're locked out and you can never get access to your data or your, precious memories, maybe your loved one has passed away and you have their photos and videos and you can never have access to those. So you will never be in that situation. If you regularly back your, all of your data out.
And I've spent a significant amount of time in my life, sorting out all my data from past, like from the beginning of digital age and before that, which I've scanned And it is worth it. I would still say that I still have that peace of mind that everything I have. From photos, videos, everything is organized, documents and everything is organized and easily backupable. I've done that and I would recommend anyone to do that. So that's one area of, holding you hostage is completely eliminated.
But then again, obviously you still have that secret being shared problem, which, if you have any idea, please share with the rest of us.
Yeah. So you've touched a good points and I didn't know about your personal experience, but yes we did interview Troy Hunt, who's the founder, who's the creator of have I been pwned website. And I, even my data has been leaked and I have seen some of my passwords online published as well. The passwords are not connected to you directly. The passwords are just leaked. It's like a password file, which has a lot of passwords and you can maybe connect to it because it's your password.
But if it's a very simple password Amit123 there could be millions of people with. And they would have typed one, two, three. So it's not related to you. It could be millions of people. And as you mentioned that the email, the phishing emails or scam emails are sent out to millions of people. And even if one person clicks that's money for them, right?
And with so much advancements, now it's very easy to fool people because there is so much technology around us and we don't know how the technology works. And That is one of the biggest reason we are doing this podcast. We want to educate people because there are so many things about technology that people don't understand. You mentioned about backups. You always need to have three backups. One is local backup, one is a cloud backup, and one is offline backup, which is not local.
So local backup is anything on your machine that you That you can access easily cloud backup is anything on the cloud and offline backup is an offline backup, which is not connected, which is air gapped, which is, which means there is no internet connectivity and it is not in your location because if your house burns down tomorrow or if there is a burglary, you lose that data because a lot of times people steal the electronic equipments.
So if that is exposed somewhere, or if it's not in a locker, then of course you lose that data. Of course, you need to have a password manager. So I have a password manager. It's offline password manager. But I store it on the cloud. So whatever is getting stored is actually password protected. So even if it's on a Google server, it is encrypted. So it's not stored on the Google server as a clear text file. It's not like someone will click the file and they will be able to read it.
No, you need a master password. So that's how I secure myself. You touched some of the important techniques like, okay, be aware, be this, be that. And as individuals people are getting more aware about technology but it's the enterprise. The challenges are that even with a robust IT system and antivirus and many other ransomware or virus mitigation strategies, people still get fooled.
And as you mentioned previously, that people are the last defense against security and if they fall, everything falls. So that's why Most of the attacks are focused on people rather than on the actual software because it's easy to fool people than software.
And one of the ways we can prevent all these things is by educating ourselves by making sure that we are clicking the right link by verifying the source of the email, by looking at whether the website is HTTP secure or not et cetera, et cetera. So there are various ways you, which with, which you can stay safe. Now, coming back to ransomware, there is a very interesting concept about, Why does ransomware goes undetected by the antivirus?
Nowadays, if you have Windows 10 or Windows 11, it gets updated very frequently. Most of the browsers like Google Chrome, Firefox, they get updated very frequently. You get an alert asking you to upgrade your machine. A windows also gives you an alert asking you to restart your machine and get the update installed. If you have not done it in a while it automatically restarts after five or six days.
So there are different strategies with the companies are taking because there are people who don't take these measures. Now even after all these things, ransomware uh, goes undetected and what are the different techniques? So one of the simple techniques is that whenever you Create a file on your computer. It's written on the hard disk. But there is RAM, which is random access memory and it gets cleared all the time. So what if the ransomware stays on the memory.
It's never actually written on the hard disk. So an antivirus that is scanning the drive C drive or a D drive, it'll never detect the ransomware. So it downloads, starts installing stuff, locks your system down. The memory what happens is the computer takes the file from your hard disk. It loads it into memory and runs it. The RAM is quite fast, so if something is loaded on the memory, then it means that it can go undetected.
I'm not sure about the latest anti virus techniques, where are they scanning memory, but I'm guessing that some of them are scanning. So this is just one of the techniques. The other technique is you go fileless you don't have any files. You try to be in a way that there are no files created That's how you evade the Antivirus. The other way is that you Once you get installed on one machine and then you try to go get installed on another machine, you don't have the same signature.
Sorry.
you have the file list, which is stored in the memory. And then you have a code that changes from one machine to another machine. So suppose the antivirus detects ransomware, malicious content. And it stores it in its database and then it tells now because it's in its database, it updates everywhere, every copy of it, wherever it is installed, that this is the signature. But the problem is that ransomware changes. So every time it changes itself, it modifies itself. So it goes undetected.
So that's called polymorphism. And we have seen it in a lot of movies, in lot of hacker movies where they try to detect or stop the the ransomware or some malicious content from triggering a nuclear attack. Because it's polymorphic code because it's changing constantly. The other is that it uses very difficult or very sophisticated encryption techniques, which even the antivirus can't detect because it's not up to date. So there are these things, then the signature. it manipulates the signature.
So suppose you are a good software and you have a signature. Now antivirus looks for signatures of those files. If it has a good signature, of course it'll say, okay, it's a safe file. What if you can get the good signature on your ransomware file or a malicious content? So you can fake a signature and then
Foraging. Yeah.
so that way you can evade the antivirus, the antivirus say, Oh, this is fine. I don't have to worry about it. Other is obfuscation. you look like a normal file, but you're actually not. So the moment you click on the directory, it's actually an executable. And this has happened with a lot of viruses. They look like a directory, but they're actually a file.
So you think it's a folder, you double click and you'll see some files, but no, you've already started the antivirus and the ransomware has attacked. so these are some of the techniques in which ransomware evades the anti virus or anti ransomware softwares. So now there are product categories which are sold as anti ransomware or anti malware things like that. So yeah, so these are different techniques in which The ransomware evades antivirus.
Wow. I've learned a lot, be a lot of these things you just mentioned. I didn't even know at all. And some of those I understand like polymorphism or some of the other techniques, but one of the things that really boggled my mind was going file less to be able to do anything, you need to, put something in the computer and if you're file less, how would you do that? don't
is the thing. The file is stored on your computer on a hard disk, but it's not executed from the hard disk. It's executed from the memory. And when it's written into the memory, it can also be erased. Memories are flashable. So it means you can write on it multiple times and you can write multiple information. So something that's loaded in the memory doesn't stay in the memory. So when you shut down your computer and when you switch it on, you have to open the apps all over again.
Windows has become better. So it, keeps the state. And it shuts down. So it keeps the state of the memory and the apps are still there. So now instead, so think like this, instead of writing it to the hard disk, what if you download a file, it doesn't get downloaded onto your hard disk. It gets downloaded onto your memory. It's written there. But it's not stored anywhere. So that's how it's fileless. So it's written on the memory. It's not stored on the hard disk.
So it means the moment you turn it off, the information is gone, right? But if you don't turn it off and your computer is on for a long period of time and accidentally you do something that triggers it, then it gets installed and you are blocked. And that's the evasion technique. So antivirus can't detect it. But a lot of new antivirus
Yeah.
they are doing in memory profiling as well now
Okay. So many innovative ways. I do wonder if these guys put their brilliance onto something good, a lot of good things probably would have happened, to come up with all of these, new innovative ways to hack into someone else's computer for malicious purposes. Of course, to come up with these kind of things and that works, that means you're obviously very skilled and talented within the IT arena and you could easily have a, honest way to live a really good life.
And to be honest, the way obviously as we mentioned earlier today, that, yeah, if you scam a lot of people, you end up, making a lot of money. But, the amount of effort they have to put in. And, if you distribute all of your returns, over that period of years. And, actually how many people are, taking the bait, etc. It's, it feels like it's really going to be difficult to make as much.
If you're that talented and skillful, then you should probably be able to make more and with less risk of going to jail or being punished and also making money ethically with more peace of mind than doing this. It's just really
think Rinat, you're missing the point because we have very strict laws. We know that people get imprisoned if they kill someone or they steal something from someone. Yet it happens. Yet it happens, right? Yeah. Irrespective of what, whatever stricter laws we have, whatever police we have, these things still happen. People still kill people. People still steal from people. They get imprisoned. We read about them in the news.
I'm pretty sure the people who are doing this are also reading about it in the news. Yet they do this because sometimes they don't have the fear. Sometimes it just gives them a kick. Okay, I can do this. I can boast it among my peers, right? Sometimes it's a state
Hmm. Yes.
sometimes you've created a ransomware 10 years ago, but it's still active. It goes undetected and it's working, but you have moved on. And a lot of these people, we say that they are brilliant. They are brilliant but you and me all can also figure these out. We just don't put the time and effort to in that direction, right? So some people have a constructive direction and some people have a destructive direction.
And sometimes what happens is they create something destructively and because they've learned so much, they actually work for companies such as an antivirus company or an anti malware company, et cetera, because now they can use their experience for by creating these malicious software to. Tell how to build your software to detect them. So this always happens. Hackers become you have the black hat hackers, the white hat
ethical hacking. Yes.
So forth. Yeah.
Yeah, there is a obviously different perspectives to each of these stories. As we're talking about all of these ways that ransomware or viruses can attack your computer. And you might think that, okay, these are more of a a media situation. We see on, a hacker movies that this is happening. But in real life there, where would, who would build a software as sophisticated as, that can do this and that to that question, I would say that I've actually come across a software.
Yeah. And the name of the software is 888RAT, R A T. And that's a proper hacker software. And if that gets access to your computer, the person who put it there will have access to your webcam, your microphone, everything and every file. And you wouldn't even know about it. You will be using your computer as is. And it's aptly named RAT at the end with 888 RAT. So these kind of software, and I only known about this one.
And I've known about it, but then I can't, I don't have the courage to even go to that website. Cause who knows, by, I would probably be thinking that I'm downloading that software, but I'm probably being ratted or being scammed as I try to download, a lot of the times, scammers can be scammed anyway. So even to learn about it if I wanted to really, dissect how it works and everything, I would have to create an offline machine with a different wifi network than mine.
And then only I could probably feel safe to do something like that. And that's a lot of effort. So this is what I'm saying, like to be able to do or to want to do something, the amount of effort you have to go through is, is
in my college, I remember the computer science students, they build the software and it's basically, um, what do you say? It's basically this server client software. So basically there is a server that communicates with the client and the client gets installed on your machine and the client knows where to send the information and it's basically a screen sharing screen sharing software. So it shares everything that's going on your screen.
It shares whatever you're sending from your computer like keyboard or mouse or input devices, and again, camera. So anything that's getting input it can send it and the client sends it to the server and they built a very simple software and they said, okay, this is how you install it. And we have this client server. Concepts. So zoom has a server and then multiple clients, and then you share your screen.
Now imagine if everything goes in a malicious way where you hide everything, you hide the interface, but everything is still being shared without showing you the interface that your screen is being shared.
How dangerous is that! So you might be thinking that, okay, this is really difficult to achieve and whatever, but it's actually, something that we have right now. As Amit, you mentioned, you probably have zoom or some sort of other meeting, remote meeting software installed already, is this the same kind of software? Without the interface. So they didn't even have to spend time on programming how it should look like. They just said, okay, it shouldn't even look like anything.
They can just do the background stuff. So it's actually very much doable and exists. So definitely something to be aware of. But also at the same time, I feel like we talk a lot about to be cautious from this and cautious from that, which might put people off technology altogether. We don't want to do that. Definitely embrace the advancement of technology. Just do it carefully and have a bit more attention to detail.
The more advanced things are going the more, vigilant you should be in anything, like even before the age of computing, as you said, someone may forge the digital signature that, say Microsoft digital signature, you can pretend to be Microsoft by doing that. That was happening before with cheques. People would forge a check with someone else's signature and take out money from bank. So all of this, and how would you check it?
You need it to be vigilant to make sure that this is your signature so it's the same thing. You be vigilant in your digital world.
One of the things you mentioned is that we don't want to off put people from technology by saying that you have to be cautious. It's like using a knife in the kitchen. People don't stop using a knife in the kitchen to cut a bread or to cut a vegetable. We know it's sharp. It can cut your fingers, yet we use it. We're just careful. So it's technology, something similar. So our technology is useful, but you have to be careful because you don't know how it's being you how it can hurt you.
Yeah. Yeah.
Absolutely. That's a good analogy. Yeah, it's been actually quite an eye-opening conversation. Amit, I've really enjoyed that and hopefully our audience found it useful too, and will have positive behavioral changes as we navigate around the internet, thank you everyone for listening and hopefully we'll see you guys again whenever we come back with our next episode.
Thanks guys.