Knowing and understanding are very different things. When I come across a new term in an article or book in most cases. I only know and not yet understand unless I practice it along with good guidance. I may not increase my understanding. Hey everyone. My name is Henry sura, one. And you're listening to the tekhelet journal.
The show will be bringing you the greatest technical leaders practitioners and thought leaders in the industry to discuss about their Journey ideas and practices that we all can learn and apply to build a highly performing technical team and to make an impact in your personal work. So let's dive into our Journal. Hello everyone. Welcome back to a new episode. Of the tekhelet journal with me Ojos Henry. Sarira one before we start today's episode. If you have been enjoying this
podcast so far. It will mean a lot for me. If you subscribe and leave a review of your favorite episodes where ever you listen your podcasts from tackle. It Journal is also available for you to follow on, multiple social media, such as LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram. Every few days. I post inspiring quotes from The Amazing guests in the available episodes, and in the future, You can also get new updates about the podcast from there.
You can also leave your feedback directly on technique Journal website at tekhelet Journal dot f, / feedback, feedback is a gift and I appreciate if you can leave me any comments or any suggestions including any potential guests that you would like to have here in this podcast. So in this episode, I had the opportunity to discuss with Stanley Lau one of the early leaders of the a gel Singapore.
I met Stanley from the age, our meetups and subsequently at various workshops that he organized inviting various world-class thought leaders to come to Singapore to share their knowledge and wisdom. Ultimately Stanley was also able to pull off multiple successful, Asia conferences, and I still remember from all these conferences. I had the chance to see several of these thought, leaders on stage people, like, Martin Fowler can back Michael
feathers. And many others I even had fewer opportunities to take some pictures with them which are forever Sherry's in my memory. So I fully appreciate of what Stanley has done to the growth of a gel community in Singapore and also around this region in this episode.
We discussed about Stan, Lee's career journey and the unique culture of odd e0 the company where he is currently working at Stanley. Also shared his view on the current a gel State and some misconceptions that Rising in the industry nowadays and even suggested on how we can bring a gel adoption back to its Essence. So I hope all of you enjoy this episode with Stan, Lee Lao.
Hey with Stanley. Thanks for spending your time on tactic Journal. I know Stanley since few years back when we all have a jar conferences going on in Singapore. And also, I met Stanley Cup few times in training with thought leaders from around the world. So Stanley also, Help to bring those kind of thought leaders to Singapore to help conduct workshops and I attended some of them get to know Stanley a little bit more.
And today. I'm really happy to have Stanley to be part of this episode and I hope we can learn from Stanley a lot. So Stanley one thing that I read about your career, right is that you have a very interesting journey. I read one in body page where it mentioned that you used to think that your career as a developer will Stuck. And then you have to go to become a manager in order to progress. But you decided that you want to try something else in which what
you're doing a toddy. Could you tell me a little bit of the thought process behind that? And what have you learned based on that decision? Sure. So, this I'll need to go back into history that is about. I think, in 2004. I was out from the Army in Singapore, military and I got a diploma in information technology and I will. So So beginning my part-time studies in computer science because I didn't want to take a full-time. Otherwise, I would not have enough medical experience.
So I decided to work directly at that time as a software. Developer after five work through about three companies like Motorola and small company in a larger company of various domains. I saw some common patterns that people around me in my peers, who graduated with me on computer science or in it. Eventually, they went out of this View and For those that remain in this field, they try to get into managerial positions. Do tell me that from you cannot be a programmer forever.
You eventually need to become a manager or at a time. The popularity is project manager and otherwise most of my friends went out to 0 psi t for you. They went to realize State's Financial domains. We become more business oriented. And one of the reasons is also because it is very hot working, as a software developer often. You need to work long hours firefighting analyst. Early, so I didn't really accept
that. This is how software development should be. I think there are other ways that there are other companies that approach software development differently, and in a more growth manner, there's a lot of learning and then making things better early in my career. I try to look for mentors people who work and learn data practices from. And after three companies. I stopped finding because I realized that there isn't one in Singapore.
So therefore I needed to take this responsibility myself to learn what other better practices on the internet. So at a time, there is the server-side.com very early days. Java is popular. User of the dotnet platform. There is also very popular and gradually service. I also post articles about practices like clean coat unit. Testing test driven development, which I don't really understand at that point in time what those things means.
So then later on there is also this website called invoke you.com., They post a lot More variety of practices and also Technologies pick up clean code book and I learn, I enjoy it. The more I read the next book, I went up to is domain-driven design. It opened up my eyes. There is so much more to software development than just code and fix and then pray that it works in production. So since then, I've been learning myself, some of the technical practices like refactoring like you need
testing eventually. I know myself. I hit a limit. This is the most that I can learn myself self learn from the out here. An Internet that was in 2008, I think so. I thought maybe there is some courses in Singapore that teach tdd test-driven development or refactoring. So I searched in there's none. The closest I can get is how to be architect. All the documentation and processes wasn't really interesting to that. But I thought maybe this is how software development is
eventually need to go there. There is a forum in Yahoo groups. There's this guy named bus folder and he is doing a cause in Singapore. Call scrub my phone. It's cam. So that's good. What's interesting is, his profile is interesting. He is the quarter of CPU test, which is a unit testing framework for C++. And he's giving this scrum Master calls, like a master of skin. So I don't really care about what this causes, what I want to meet this person and see what I
can learn from. When I attend this corset open up my perspective. It broaden is like a Whole New Horizon just in which there is so much about company Dynamics. And also practices that I try to encourage my peers at a time my colleagues, like I still remember over the cubicle. I told my colleague, no clinical book. This is very very interesting though. You need to read it then he'll say that read books. I only only read newspapers in toilet.
I don't read books. So now I mean that's the first form of what I learned as resistance. I don't know what to make out of that. Is this a customer or what? And I didn't really bother. So I try to encourage my my peers at times about what I read. So Buzz voter 3 scrum Master calls. I learned that he is not only good at technical practices or understanding product development at a technical level.
But also how he relates the codebase, the ship of the code base relates to the problems in organization. So if you want to make any changes in organization, you need to learn about all Dynamics. That is when we live together that relates with each other. He has a lot of Amazon reviews on books. So I went to search all his reviews that are four to five
stars. I will buy all of them and very soon, my cubicle is full of books and then my colleague was saying, no Stanley, what happened to you? Suddenly, you have a lot of books on a shelf. These are these are books. I like to read in, China's you call it confirm manual. That is secret menu. This have the answers. So, going back to your question,
my quest of finding a man. Mental led me to discover the ins and outs of product development and let me to the interest of helping others to be better problem. Solvers. First in the past decade. I decided to mostly focus on coaching mentoring and training. I found also auti is one of the unique companies in which you have different set of working process, different set of culture. Maybe you can share with the listeners, hear about what's so unique about either.
You think with to share what everybody? Oh, sheriff. First, before I explain the concept, when I joined Ali, I asked boss, how many days of annual leave? I have. He asked back. How many days do you usually have a reply the same number as my X company at a time? And he said, okay, I regretted it immediately. He also told me a bunch of things which I didn't really understand at that time. I thought was cool. Like you decides your own title. There is no hierarchy and
manager. It was later. Then I realized there is no HR, you know, Lee. And no one keeping track of your annual. Leave you decide how you want to work and be responsible for the organization and working with each other. So Buzz, followed all the as an experiment to see what will happen. If the organization is based on principles of self-managing teams. We have no hierarchy management structure or centralized control, though. He is, the founder is not the
boss of the company. There is no manager within each team. There is also no structure but together, they I do have a responsibility for their profit and loss. They will make their own decisions about basically everything like which class to work how to deal with finances and how we set our own salary. So you can imagine each team is like a company and it is also usually it's only go entity instead of having company values. We have the opposite.
What we never do for example, all you never does performance appraisals, never optimize only for profit and growth there. We hire people because we have work and never gives up writing code. So it has been a decade and we have now more than ten teams located in different parts of the world. Every half-yearly. We have a gathering at some location and spends a week exchange, learnings and write code.
Although now times have changed. I'm not sure when we will be able to do that again, but we'll see. So there are challenges with the corporate and accounting practices on already because it assumes ownership. Where someone is in control? So, if you think of Accra, which is Singapore's Authority for accounting and corporate practices, you must have a director and shareholders. And so, and so forth. That is what we thought of as a ownership model. We actively not let that
influence how you want to work. And if you think about it, it is easy for any organizations to be influenced by how Corporate practices want them to work. One of the reasons people join or a, is because we dislike how most of Organizations are run against this mix hottie quite unique. Thanks for sharing that. It's pretty unique in your point of view, having seen the corporate world and having work. Now with this kind of culture like set your own salary.
No appraiser, you do what you want to do and you own your profit and loss, right? What are the key big difference that you think are beneficial for people to at least know and acknowledge that these kind of working model might work, right? A call or is designed with the acknowledgement that people want. Learn and be better. So what we say and do are congruent. It is different from most companies where they expects you to be better, but have structures and policies.
That backfire. I believe people have good intentions, but because of the organization rules that accumulates over time, influences, people's behavior and dehumanized, they work place over time. You come in terms with how the organization play games and you work within the Box until you join one of those bars voters
courses. You may either become aware of yourself being in the box that wants to get out and improve or defend yourself to keep yourself in a box for those that wants to improve the enthusiasm usually last for a couple of weeks before the force few moves, you back to the shape of the box. If the organization doesn't improve your accumulating, frustration will lead you to leave the company. It is not uncommon to hear these stories from our students when
they know what can be better. I don't suggest all organizations. Should follow Audie model. If I start a cafe shop or HR software Product Company, I would manage it differently because the context is different. However, Concepts like self-managing can be useful, especially in product development, and it doesn't mean you cannot have managers on the other hand. There is nothing new to this Concepts that I mentioned. There are many evidence-based,
studies done on this area. There is a mooc called abolishing. The proposals we shows how and why traditional processes backfire and what to do differently. There is the principle of Beyond budgeting the idea of abolishing traditional budgeting processes because of its inherent flaws, numerous studies on the importance of growing, real teams and team coaching to create a learning organization. And more recently, actually five years ago is moral, gave an insightful, Ted Talk on how Too
many rules at work. Keep you from getting things done, which highlights how with lots of rules, processes, and Matrix keeps us from doing our best work all together. So why would a software developer care about this? There is a high chance that performance appraisals traditional budgeting traditional processes Department, silos managed by control, thinking, of people as resource to the utilize, this form the box that will
influence. Your behavior and thinking, subconsciously, understanding this can reduce the influence and gain back. Control of your own growth. Yeah. It is easier said than done. I know, since the time I became aware of this ten years ago. I noticed more organizations are challenging, the Box. Usually not a whole company, but okay, Soviets and I'm aware that it is not easy hearing what you're saying.
It seems like this is kind of related to how A gel should work in a way and switching the topic little bit now to Asia. All right, I mean, Asia is your bread and butter. You've been a job coach, you have scrum certifications, and all that. You also work with bass who invented less, obviously scrum has been around for like many years now. And in fact, the popularity is
pretty, pretty huge. But I see personally in my opinion, that there are people who are now being skeptical about a gel and scrum thinking of it. Maybe it's a scam, you know, when people come with the titles, Mustache, or is he a scam Master? You know, that kind of thing. So, can you maybe clarify a bit about a gel State at the moment in the industry? And what do you think? Are some of the misconceptions
that people see in Asia? I'm going to clarify briefly what a job and scrum off first before share my thoughts about a misconception and y'all is a Manifesto. Containing four values and twelve principles written by a group of programmers in 2001, who are frustrated by the traditional development processes at a time. I'm so founders of extreme programming and scrum with there, and they had been challenging, the traditional development for many years before the authors of agile.
Manifesto had only thought it was a good meet up and didn't expect anything after that. But people fall out and it became a movement. What is means is there were people who resonated with the altars in improving software development, extreme programming and strong became the most popular and often used in combination extreme programming. Has very useful technical practices that refactoring pair programming, and continuous integration that helps to reduce the feedback loop in development.
Some of these practices were stolen from the good parts of traditional development like code review and when you turn the frequency output becomes pair programming, so it's called Extreme for scrum. There are three keys first is cross-functional and self managing team. As you can imagine. This is a bigger change in your organization compared to adopting technical practice like refactoring. It will challenge the box and you need different type of skills for that.
Second is acknowledging that we are in a complex domain and therefore we need to inspect and adapt on how and what we work. Third is acknowledging. We are developing products and not projects. So it is common to have teams use cron, along with a few technical practices from extreme programming. Let's talk about misconception moves of the misconceptions that came across other lack of understanding. I'm Person in Asia made up and he told me that they were using daily stand-up.
Therefore. They were doing scrum. I have seen more than 10 times. The developer created, the task that saves refactoring, but when iPad with him, he was rewriting and adding more functionalities knowing and understanding are very different things. When I come across a new term in an article or book in most cases. I only know and not yet, understand unless I practice it
along with good ingredients. Since I may not increase my understanding, another common misconception is left from the people being forced to do Agile scrum. It could be the headquarters, wanted in various development sites, to have agile scrum, India, contract or a company's management rollout and agile wide adoption initiative. These are breeding ground for just show the motion without real change on certifications. If you are the organization, how
can you easily know that? Well, qualified for something certifications, do this thinking is flawed. Most companies still do it because it is easier to manage by numbers. So the same people for certifications, which creates the demand suppliers, use this Dynamic to create certifications to fuel the team and I want to
highlight that certified scrum. Master doesn't mean you understand and skilled at it. The reason or ee we still have certifications is because this dynamic in the Street is too strong that if we don't, it is hard to share our experience with people in public trainings. And we are always up front about the truth in certifications to our participants. Yeah. I find that also.
This is quite dangerous, right? Because as we all know, people tend to like overhype, sometimes about a certain practices like a gel devops SRE, you see? I see there's so many things, right? So what do you think can be done in order to put back a gel to what it was originally? Intended for to rule out all these misconceptions or even if you want to advise people who really want to go dive, deep into this scrum or Asia. All right. What should they be focusing on focus on the essence?
One approach that I tend to like to think instead ignore this term scrum and agile stuff. I think about how do you improve your work? What are the challenges are meeting today? What have you tried to improve it? And then what it have you not tried. Who can you seek out for to? Get guidance whether you're on the right direction or not.
And if you have this thinking of trying to improve your work every day and also try to understand the broad perspective, the things that you do who is going to use it. We don't get the benefits of it. Who is this valuable for? How is this relate to the End customer? So the thinking of this and also, how do I know? This is what they want a minor issue on the right direction. How do I know who can ask for weather?
Is this the right direction? Maybe you know, ask the customers you need to ask someone else. Who am I depending on? What is the Assumption? I'm making, is this assumption still valid or am I trying to my wreath what other people are thinking? I need to check. So therefore I need to Pink someone as early as possible. This is the the kind of feedback getting very tight feedback. I think this is one of the essence hearing from what you're saying.
It doesn't work just for like a group of small teams, right? Being certified scrum and then they should. Able to incorporate that to the whole company's, right? I mean in essence, Asia is about culture ways of working the ways
of thinking as well. So I think it's more than just getting certifications and probably I don't know what's the best way for people or company in general to actually adopt a job other than bringing a bunch of people like you who has experienced a lot and doing this and trying to inculcate, that practices, that ways of thinking ways of working in order to be Able to finally adopt these whole HR practices.
I mean, that's my take of it, switching a little bit about, you know, you mentioned so many times about mentors learning from people who have experienced before. I noticed that all the contributions that you have made to the community, especially in Singapore, right? I still remember that few years back. We had this Asia conferences. We have so many great speakers and thought. Leaders Martin, Fowler can back and so many others, right? I think. That's one thing that I see from you.
Is that you seeking this kind of a thought. Us to actually learn from them. What do you say about learning from all these people and going to workshop? And some of them are actually paid workshops, right? So, do you think it's something that we as practitioners need to do continuously and frequently from time to time I think so, I think the reason I bring these people to here is because of the
ease of access. The reason I do conferences here and bring people here is I was inspired when I went to the North America's agile conference. Since 2010, and those thousands of people that you can just walk along the corridor and you see Marty follow you see on Kebab, whether you say hi to the end and have some discussions with them. So I realized Singapore is so far away from where these ideas are being originated. So, I want to make it easier for people to access by bringing
them here. So I provide opportunities and I believe our people who turned out most of them. In fact, I over the time, I got to know quite a few of them who often turned up some of the work. Stay organized including you as well. No, these are the people that are seeking for learning for guy Diaz and looking for different perspectives because this workshops are not frequent there. Once in a blue moon and either you get it now or never.
So that people will even one pay themselves for for this workshops right off there. I got the right people who have this thirst for Learning, and I'm not sure if this is something that I would say, everybody should do it because the People factors the prices that I said in the workshops is at a cost price to make it possible for people to attend. But I also people who couldn't attend because they will have to folk out on that deal to sell sponsor. Themself company, wouldn't sponsor.
And I think there are Financial methods that even people who once it's they may not able to attend it and they also people who don't find a relationship to that. So if I were to say that, no, you should go for this this Workshop, but if they can't find a relationship, there is a disconnection. It may not be the This bath but it may not be at the right time or maybe really that's this content is not relevant to this person and it's point in time
and I only accept that. So what I would rather encourage is that people to think for themselves, you can be very short term, how they want to improve their work right now and usually that would lead them to find more answers to the questions that they have. And probably one of these workshops could connect Stanley. I realize also looking back at your career in The last few years that you moved out of body for a while for like one year joining Gulf Tech.
And before that, you told me that you had a thinking process behind it. So, can you share a little bit? What made you make that decision? And also, what have you learned going back to the industry for like one year or so before you join back body now? So in order here, I've often been external person that is not a internal staff. So I don't get the internal bureaucracies and process. Us, that is required aspect of an employee typical employee being this axial position for a
long time. I see things, of course, on the outside of box perspective. I also acknowledge that I'm missing or maybe I forgot how it was like 10 years ago when I was still an employee of a corporation, this is about empathy as well. The people that I coach software developers that pair with them. What are they actually struggling within the company? The question pop up? I do not know this question. I know.
That knowing this question or this answer can help me improve my work in a future in coaching them. So therefore, my action is to join the company. I did this deliberately for one year experiments, one experiment, join a large corporation and at a time. I have two choices in the end. I decided to join graphtec with the help of a Stephen. Coe is also interesting to join him. At that time. He is under government digital service. I got to see what Of leadership. He is in the company.
So eventually I joined that and I'm subcon to manage enough manpower as a software developer. I think I enjoyed that a lot. Although I struggle a lot as well. Like the first things I struggle is that I have to reach the office. Follow the office hours. Now you clock or 9:30 to reach J. And then leave by 6:00, or 7:00 back in early. I, there's no timing. That's all what I was kind of concept.
So, I struggle that for quite quite a bit and then Then I also get to have performance appraisals, 10 years. I need to do a performance appraisals for myself. Again. I have a supervisor if a technique this hierarchy of things and there is managers and so on when I joined I didn't expect what I would learn. I'm just open minded and and being a obedient stuff. Try myself to be in that position. And what will happen. What comes in the first three months? I said, yes.
I'm a programmer or work on the function. It is working on programming. I somehow have imagination that I have this Soul spirit that goes behind me, seeing myself at this position and comparing myself more than 10 years ago before I joined body as a software developer. And then this two-person cost and it was like back then. And then how is he know the things that he would think the things that you will say, the things he would communicate and
do very, very, very different. So I didn't know. Know that I could get that kind of reflection on myself. So I'm very surprised on that. So that first is self-awareness. I learn more about myself. The difference that I have that is probably more than 10 years apart when I was still a software developer. The other part learning is so.
So in the past, you know, I may not actually ask the customers or the users and may not validate my assumptions with them, that much, I would keep on coding, but now I would find ways to validate my assumptions. Much. Charlie on. Like there's one one case which is typical, is that you have a backlog item, for a background item, use this story, for example, to do some
functionality in this screen. So then typical developer would just assume as myself in the past, which also look into that or what are the statements are in the jarate. Kate what it says? And I will try to cording to that. So what I did differently this time is that I come out with specifications as a beautiful specifications in cucumber. So coming up with a scenario.
Bro, if this happens and then if this is some of the inputs and then based on a user action, what is the expected output I come up with Once? In our, with my Paris? My power was quite eager to get on to the code. I was like, hold on. Wait wait, I don't quite understand and also because I'm new to the domain, so I call me once in a row first and then I share with you, is this why you understand? And he says, I'm not sure, I think so and maybe it was Oscar the product owner.
Then we asked to the prom. In and she sees a net know, I think there's something something different immediately. We validates our understanding on the business level, right? Imagine. We went into court and we think that this is how it is. We trusted documentation. So, I never work at this level that deeply as much as when I was as an agile, coach back in already. Hmm, biochemical. See how this challenges.
My peers around me as well. Yeah, after embryo perspectives that you haven't thought about there is another conversation with my pair. I think that was an integration work and he wanted to create this classes because that's what the task said. I asked him. Why do you need these glasses? He couldn't answer the real Reflections. He said he should perhaps first thing about why he needs those before jumping to court. That's very good learning. Yeah, so interesting.
I'm supposed to be a software developer coding at the end after the closed end of one year. My colleagues told me that. No, thanks for your coaching. I don't deliberately want to coach but it happens to be. So having experienced all these first. Of course, you improve yourself internally your self-awareness and things like that. You also have seen all this working practices could be done better. So now coming back to our T, putting your head back as an HR
coach. What can you probably Now share with all your customers about what you have experienced from that one year and things that they should be either like focusing on or maybe thinking of improving instead of just hire coach. And, you know, everything will be okay. I think that it is less of that part where I could tell them that what they should do. There is more about my empathy on the teams that I work with. Now, them engage that in the past.
I used to have this aspect ation that A program for sometime or maybe I gave some workshops. I think you should know this topics. But when I see that you don't see that, I have this feeling that, no, you're not really learning or notice. Is there some problem with how I teach? I begin to be more emphasized. That they have their struggles because of the other kind of policies expectation of them from the company. They may not be able to pick up these skills as much as I hope.
And that is okay. Mmm. I begin to accept this fact. And with this information, it also helps me to revise, my expectations of a coaching engagement with my sponsors, or maybe they expect that. Oh, you're here for one month. And then I respect them to the developers or will be level immediately. So, I would be able to bring out some examples of what they are struggling with and that deters them from your learning as quickly as you wish that they have, right?
So Stanley towards the end of every episode. I would ask my guess about the three technical leadership wisdoms that they would like, to share for the listeners. So would you be able to share? What do you think? Are your three technique wisdoms? First of all, consider the the word calculate, as a leadership is ability, is ability that anyone in software development could have, it's not necessary that you must be in the
technique position. So as a new Joyner or even you are experienced or software developer, Product developer. One of the things that I find very valuable and yet lacking is having a broad perspective, broad perspective can comes in different ways. You can be knowing your domain, the business domain and a broader scope, you can be instead of just focusing on one component of the of your application. You could understand how it all
links up together, right? From code to building, packaging testing to production and you can also be a broad perspective. In a sense that understanding the Dynamics in your company or how you guys work. For example, may be in your team right now. You do have a business analyst and you have a tester and you are Developer and Broad perspective. Also means that you understand, you do not just focusing on programming, but you also understand what is required of getting a good test results.
How to come up with test cases. You also open to understand how to analyze with requirements. How do I treat talk to users or customers without this perspective of your peers? Maybe during a specialized role? It is very hard for you to collaborate with them. Collaboration is not keeping my specialty as my specialty and then working with them in this
manner. You can get collaboration from that you get collaboration from understanding the other disciplinary skills, and then you can anticipate and you can empathize what they need. So that you can What we've done better by providing them, not being more sharper in providing information to them being Shopper in asking for specific information. So there is a broad perspective. The other skill is listening. It is very common.
If you are just starting out as a junior programmer or developer through a few years. I often found depending on our culture as well. There is more about winning your argument, then listening, what your peer away. It comes from. What brought his Or her argument. If you have that perspective, then you would ask more questions and you would be able to listen better. There are different levels of
listening typical level one. Listening means that I listened to form an opinion so that I can win. My argument the second level of listening and a third level is more towards really understanding. What is behind this person says does this person have certain fears or worries or concerns then instead of sticking to what they say literally and we ask questions. Elicits what they are feeling about it with this, it helps yourself to understand other people.
More people will open up and you would have a better conversation with them. The third thing is mentorship. It is hot. I've been in this journey and took me eight years to find a new Mentor that I would learn from. I think I gave up at one point in time, but that I found it. So, my assumption is that eventually you'll find a mentor. Look for my coaching. His community developer Community is great. Next people together, you have that opportunity that I don't
have before. Back in the time where communities are still more rare. People don't come out and talk about things that that much join communities and see who you can meet and learn from within your company. If you find that people who is interested in improving, those are potentially good mentors that you can learn from. Yeah. Thank you so much. Just Andy for sharing all your knowledge experience and especially your unique point of view.
Personally myself. I have learned a lot and I hope all this in us here could also use this knowledge and level up your understanding about a gel and also what you should do in order to improve yourself. So, one final question Stanley. How do people find and connect with you online. You can join the adjust, Singapore Meetup Group, Facebook as well. You can Facebook message me. I could provide my email address after this so you can reach up
to me as well. Thanks, again for tuning into this episode and for staying till the end. And I learned a lot from Stanley and I hope you also find a lot of useful, insights that you can immediately apply in your work and practices. If you find this episode useful, share it with your friends and colleagues, so that they can also get the benefit from this conversation, please subscribe and follow technique journal on your favorite podcast app and
also social media. I'll see you in the next episode and until then stay safe. Stay healthy, stay agile, and stay productive.