Leading change is high stakes. Leadership in general is high stakes. We don't spend a great deal of time actually focusing on conversation and creating space to engage in real conversation. And by that I mean we are attending to getting below the surface level topic.
Hey everyone. My name is Henry Surya Virawan and you're listening to the Technical Journal Podcast, the show where I'll be bringing you the greatest technical leaders, practitioners and thought leaders in the industry to discuss about their journey, ideas and practices that we all can learn and apply to build a highly performing technical team and to make an impact in your personal work. So let's dive into our journal. Hello everyone.
Welcome to the Techni Journal Podcast, the podcast where you can learn about technical leadership and excellence from my conversations with great thought leaders in the tech industry. If this is your first time listening, don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast app to get notified for future episodes. Also, subscribe to Techni Journal contents on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok.
And if you have been enjoying this podcast and its contents, support my work by either buying me a coffee at techlygenal dot def slash tip or becoming a patron at techlygenal dot def slash patron. My guest for today's episode is Marcia Acker. Marcia is the author of Build Your Model for Leading Change and the host of Defining Moments of Leadership podcasts. In this episode, we discussed building our own model for leadership and leading change.
Marcia first started by sharing the concept of a model and some of the common challenges for organizations in making changes. Then we discussed David Cantor's theories on structural dynamics and functional awareness for understanding behavioral model, which include the concepts of leadership, range, and communicative competence. Marcia outlined what makes communication so, so challenging and what we can do to achieve a more effective communication with each other.
Towards the end, she shared the three different models that leaders need to think about, which are Model for Leadership, Model for a Living, and Model for Leading Change. I hope you enjoy listening to this episode and learn insights on how to understand and adjust your Leadership model that eventually will allow you to lead successful change in your organization. And if you enjoy listening to this episode, please share with your colleagues, your friends,
and communities. And leave a 5 star rating and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Your small help will help me a lot in getting a lot more people to discover and listen to this podcast. And I really, really appreciate it. Let's now go to my conversation with Marsha. Hey, a quick message for those of you who are listening to this episode on Spotify, I have a small favor to ask. Spotify now allows mobile users to rate podcasts.
I would really appreciate it if you can take a quick pause to go to the Technical Journal podcast page and leave your favorite show your best rating on Spotify. It will help me a lot to get this podcast to reach more people on the platform. Thanks a lot. Hello guys, welcome back to another new episode of the Technical Journal Podcast Today I have Marcia Acker here. So she's gonna be discussing about making change, leading
change for leaders. So I'm so excited to have you in the show, Marcia, looking forward for giving advice for people for leading some changes in their organizations. Thanks Henry. I'm excited to be here today. Marcia, I always love to ask my guests to first share about yourself, right? Maybe you can share some highlights or any turning points in your career so that we all can learn from your experience. Yeah, I would describe my career journey as like part one and Part 2.
So I got my start. So I have two degrees in software engineering. And so the first part of my professional career was really on the ground with developers and end users really trying to bridge the communication gap between, you know, both of those groups of folks. And so I have in my training, I think I had a really strong
training and process. I had a lot of orientation to creating process, automating process, you know, a belief that efficiency would happen if we could just define the process and then improve the process. So I think I would describe sort of the first half of my career as really passionate about looking at ways to improve how we automate and communicate with one another. But it was early in that sort of first part of my career that I also was introduced to
facilitation skills. So I was working across many groups. I would say they were often politically divided groups of end users and trying to get them to align on requirements or come to some alignment or agreement on what they wanted to put into software. And I stumbled upon facilitation skills and that really started to shift my. I think that was one of my turning points where I really started to see the value of crafting spaces that people could talk with one another and
communicate with one another. And so I have a lot of passion around facilitation. I wrote a book about it, but that really set a part of my trajectory in the late 90s. So around 9899, I was in a startup organization and we began working with agile principals. That was before we were calling it agile in the tech space, but really started to be get and I saw things like pair programming and user stories as a way I saw them as facilitation processes.
Like there were ways that we could start to change the focus and not just be about looking at the process, but we could actually begin to shift communication. So that really set my trajectory to focus a bit more on facilitation and left the startup and I went on to work in a consulting firm and I had begun to shift over to the process of change like really stepping back a bit from my technical focus and really looking at how do we help
organizations change. And I ended up working with a large organization on a huge change. We were facilitating mostly the leadership team and it was happening over the course of about a year and a half. It was a very processed focused change. I would say if I were to describe it to you today, I would say my model for change at that time was very process
focused. If you define the process as it is today, if you look to create what you want as a new process, then people will get on board, right? So I think that was a little bit of the the model for change at that moment. And I noticed while I think the change was relatively successful, they were able to
roll it out. One of what I noticed was happening in the leadership team as they were trying to make decisions, they reached a point where they just got stuck in the conversation of what was going to change. Primarily what I could tell you today is primarily because they were so focused on process and at a point in that decision making for the leadership team, it wasn't about the process
anymore. So many things were going to change that they were going to make decisions, never going to impact them personally, where their homes were located, where their children were going to school, how connected they were to extended family. That was happening at the leadership level and it was happening for the people that they were leading. And so all of a sudden, you know, there was a really, there was a real human element to a
decision that needed to be made. But the process that we were using to help them make decisions didn't really include the human element. It was very process focused. And so that was a moment in time. I remember it very vividly. We were at a retreat and I was
like, we're just stuck. Like I I'm all out of facilitation tricks and tools and techniques and I didn't really know what to do. And so we ended up sort of naming that to the group and asking them how they wanted to work with it. But it was that moment that I really can locate as a trajectory change for me because my model at that moment was really missing the human
element. And the fact that we weren't creating a space for people to talk about the impact of the change, what they needed to consider or take into account really then sort of pushed that topic off. What I would say is it pushed it offline and it made it sort of undiscussable and then it sort of held that leadership team in a spin cycle for quite some time.
It was really difficult. So today in part two of my career, I am an executive coach and a leadership team coach and I really focus on the skills of conversation and communication. So why is it important to even make communication something
that we focus on? So I would, I would say today I have a model around leading change that really emphasizes the core crux of our conversations and how really everything that we want to accomplish kind of sit on the, it's sort of like train tracks, like conversation is what propels us forward or holds us back and the way we're engaging with one another. So that would be sort of the highlights I think, of my career journey. Thank you for sharing your story.
I think it's really interesting, right? Started from the software engineering background and then went into facilitation by chance and also now working on making changes. And you emphasize a lot about communication and building conversations, right? And I think you also have a podcast called Defining Moments of Leadership. So one story that you mentioned just now seems like 1 defining moment of leadership where you know it missed the human elements.
So maybe if you can share a little bit more. Why did you start with this podcast? What kind of guest that you invited the show to share with the audience? So maybe a little bit about your podcast. Yeah, thank you. The podcast emerged and I don't. I never set out to do a podcast that wasn't that was not on my bucket list of things to do. But I realized, so I do individual leadership coaching and then I also work with leadership teams.
But it was during the pandemic and I started to realize there was this theme or thread across leaders that I was working with a couple of things. One is I would say it's this moment where we go, all right, I still have more. I thought I was done with that, but I'm realizing I still have more work to do to grow my leadership.
So the moment of thinking, like thinking we're done and then something happens and we realized, you know, we've got more work to do. I think the other part was there's something really beautiful in my opinion about honestly, the honor of being in a one-on-one coaching engagement with a leader. And I would notice they'd show up in those conversations as real, authentic, you know, really genuinely caring, wanted to, you know, had good
intentions. And then often times not everyone, but some of them go out to their teams and then they get feedback in three 60s or some other mechanism that says they're controlling. And so I just kept thinking, why can't that person that I'm talking to show up also at work?
And that was the moment because I'm like, well, they're there, but there's something about the system or the team, maybe their own story that they're telling themselves that has them show up differently with me than they do when they're leading. And so I really want it to start to normalize that. Leadership is ongoing. The development of leadership is ongoing. Should you choose to accept it? It's ongoing. And I wanted to normalize the
real sort of dips in our life. You know those moments where it feels like it gets really low or it's challenging? Because I think that those are the moments where we actually on board, new insights, new learning and something shifts or changes for us. And coming out of those dips are new thinking, new ways of leading. We show up slightly differently. And so I just wanted to normalize the messy mucky middle or the dip that happens.
And so on the podcast, I'm really clear about invite real leaders who are on the front lines leading. They're dealing with all the challenges that come with leadership. I think leadership in and of itself as a highstakes activity these days. And the ask is when they come on that they share one of those defining moments and what it was like for them, what it was like to be in it, what they were thinking at the moment, but also what's the learning or the lesson that they took away.
So how did that, in a sense, help them define what their model for leadership look like? So that's a little bit of how the podcast came to be. And yeah, and and what I look for on the podcast. Yeah, sounds like a lot of things we can learn, right, defining moments of leadership. So I think when you become a leader, or even if you're not in the leadership position, sometimes we are forced into a certain moments in our career where you need to step up and
make decision, right? It's too big from the front. So hopefully people can also learn from your podcast about some leadership moments. So for today we are going to talk a topic about leading change from your latest book, Built Your model for Leading Change. So the first thing is about the title itself. So maybe my first question, what do you mean by building a model for leading change? What do you define as a model
here? So a lot of the work, the research actually comes from a gentleman by the name of David Cantor. He was located in Boston at Harvard and in the early 70s actually started to do quite a lot of research around communication. And through that research he developed a theory called Structural dynamics and it's theory of Facetoface
communication. Part of his theory is that everyone of us are essentially building models, and models are the way that we look at the world, make sense of the world, and then take action in the world. When I encountered David's work a number of years ago, I was really struck by the idea. So remember my background. I'm deep in process. Like I have a real love for
process. And there is, you know, I had been at that time introduced to a lot of models, models for building software, models for trust, building models for how we communicate. And at that time also models for how to be in a a coach, a leadership coach, a systems coach. So I was really fascinated by this idea that, you know, it was sort of like, of course we're building our own models, but I'd really never looked at it
through that lens. And I had bet a colleague at the time and I remember saying to her, you know, you said this about team coaching. And I've really heard this. And so I was like, you know, there's what you're saying and there's what someone else is saying. And I want to know which one of those is right. And she looked at me and she said, well, it's just a different model. And she's like neither or right or wrong, it's just a different model and it's based on
different thinking. And I thought, huh, that's really fascinating. So what I'd say, you know about the new book, building a model. So for me, it really is about taking a stand. I'm wanting all of us to begin to think about how do we lead change, how do we lead what's in our model. You've heard me even today describe years ago, you know, having more of what I would have called a process lead model for change, whereas I have a much more behavioral and communication model for change
now. And that's not to say that either or right or wrong, but what's really happened for me over the years, even as I described my career trajectory for you, has been an ongoing process of getting really clear for myself about what's in my model, how I go about doing it, why I go about doing it. And if you go on to social media, I think social media is a great place to see what I would call model difference or even model clash for that matter.
Pick anybody on social media who asserts something, you're yeah, you're laughing, but it's like they assert something and then here come all the comments. Well, I see it differently or I disagree. And so actually in those conversations, what I would say is if we zoom out of them, there's likely two or more people in that stream of of conversation that actually have different models for how
something happens. And I think the value and the benefit of being really clear about having a model and really knowing what's in your model is that, you know, Henry, if you and I engaged in a conversation, we could talk about, you know, how do you lead change, how do I lead change. And I could tell you, well, here's my focus and here's what I'm trying to change. Here's how I believe that thing changes. For me, it's communication and
and behavior. And here's what I do to help people make that change and here's why I do what I do. So all of a sudden and then you could, you know if you'd done some model building work and done some reflection on that,
you could also say that. And then now we can have a really effective, what I would call a cross model conversation where we can name things, make sense of them and really engage in a very healthy discourse even about what's that about without needing to sort of beat the other down.
So I think there's a essence or a kind of quality of conversation that comes from being really clear about what's your model and it keeps us out of this kind of beating down of someone else or making somebody else wrong and us right. In summary, like I think that's really what the Viewbook is about, about building your model. Right. I think you are right. So whether we realize it or not, whether we understand what kind of model we have, we all have our own models, right?
And we tend to pick it up maybe from childhood, from school, from our past experience, from our managers, right, whoever that we listen to. I think we all have these models and it could evolve over the time. Sometimes we are not conscious that we do have this. Sort of a model in our head that sometimes cause a bias. And I think in your book you try to advocate people to actually build our own personal models by also maybe understanding other available models out there, right.
So I think I love the idea, but in the first thing I would like to ask you, right, because your book eventually talks about leading change. What do you think are some of the common challenges for organizations to lead change? Because I believe all organizations want to change. All organizations want to improve, but what are some of the common challenges you think from organizations making a successful change? I think there are two big ones.
Probably the biggest one that I see is that we do not make a broad generalized statement. So it's not to say that there aren't you know, pockets somewhere out there. So if you're working in an organization that you're like, well that's not true here, but I think broad generalization in Business Today. We don't spend a great deal of time actually focusing on conversation and creating space
to engage in real conversation. And by that I mean we are attending to getting below the surface level topic. So there's so many organizations I go into and the larger they are, the more prominent this behavior is, is that we create time boxes for meetings, so. There are organizations that will tell you, sorry, we only work in 30 minute increments or you know, our meetings are time boxed to 50 minutes so that we can, you know, have 5 minutes on the either end of an hour.
So I'm not saying that that's bad and I'm not saying that you shouldn't have time boxes for your meetings and that you shouldn't try to condense the amount of time that we're in meetings. But I also think we're fatigued of meetings and in the broad generalization. And I think that's happening because we come to places where we gather together and we do a whole lot of other things, but communicating with one another isn't really what we're doing.
I think, you know, remember I shared, you know, sometimes I see a different version of leaders and one-on-one coaching than I see when they show up with their teams. I think that's because we're just all full of assumptions, biases, the facade that we feel like we have to play or put on. And so we show up to these meetings and we throw a lot of sentences around. We move shells around on the table. We keep it out of very surface level. We move fast.
We try to get things done, wrap it up and then move on. And I think a lot of times if you find yourself walking away from a meeting going, I don't think I really agree with that. Or, you know, I really see it differently. But I didn't feel like I had space to say it. So now I'm saying it to my colleague in a chat channel or I'm saying it to someone. Over lunch, we're now I'm kind of griping or complaining about it rather than really having an opportunity to stay at the meeting.
I think that is the crux of what I call Groundhog Day conversations. So it's a little bit like a signal or a flag. If you find yourself having the same conversation over and over again in your team or at work, I think chances are you're staying on the surface level and you're not getting to the real conversation.
So I really think that one of our greatest challenges in organizations is to have a way and a language for navigating the interpersonal group dynamics that are happening as we are trying to do big things like leading change is high stakes, leadership in general is high stakes and then introducing new ways of work or wanting something to be different, I think is also high stakes. So I think we don't have a way.
To talk about how we're communicating and I don't think we create this space to talk about it. Thanks for emphasizing this thing about communication and the space to create that great conversation, right. Because, yeah, I believe many organizations when tackling changes, they always comes from process, maybe introducing new people right at the top, introducing processes, but rarely also talk about the impact of the people or making conversations so that every parties are listened to.
So I think thanks for emphasizing that. So let's go to your model in the book, right. You mentioned there are four models that people should think about when they want to come up with their own personal model for leading change. The four models are the behavioral model, the model for leadership, model for living and model for leading change itself at the end. So maybe if we can go just a little bit one by one, right.
So the behavioral model, So why do you think it's very important for us to understand about behavioral model and what exactly is behavioral model for some people, maybe they are not aware of this term? Yeah. So behavioral model is what David Kanter would call our way of looking at the way we are behaving with one another and a lot of. What I talked about in the book uses the theory of structural dynamics to do that.
So a way of looking at behavior is to look at the words that we are saying when we are communicating with one another. So looking at speech acts and the flow of those speech acts and whether there are sort of multiple levels of our communication, so the direction that we're studying in communication, how we're relating to one another. The things or the communication domains that we actually care about and then David talks about sort of a force level is in our
behavior as childhood story. So what happened to us as we were growing up that really influences our behavior. So she hear me talk about leaders like they're different in a oneonone than they are in a team. A lot of that for all of us, myself included, will be how I grew up and the stories. The old narratives that gets laid down when I was younger about why I do what I do and when I encounter someone else, how will I behave?
And then writing the new narrative that says actually, you know, hey Marsha, you're not on the playground anymore, you are an adult. This is not that same thing, even though your brain might start to think it. So looking at your behavioral model is having a language for being able to talk about communication. Being able to be aware of yourself in that communication, but also being able to make sense of others.
And when I'm interacting with others, or even in a system or an organization, how can we name the dynamics? Have a morally neutral way of naming the dynamics. So that gets that. Really thinking about your behavioral model is partly do you have a language? Do you have a model and a language for being able to look
at that in a neutral way? And then the other part is David Cantor would call it functional selfawareness, but are you aware of how you are behaving in the moment, the impact that you're having on others and the difference between our intent, which I think many of us have good intent, but we can also have a negative impact. And so being able to take responsibility for both our intent and our impact.
And so that behavioral model is. Growing yourself awareness to the place where you're able to really be in command of yourself when you're interacting with other people, right. This is part of the book where I find it very, very insightful and interesting, you know, understanding this model from David Kanter, right. So I think when you mentioned about intent and impact, sometimes we don't see it two
different things, right. We tend that we want to have a good intent and creating good impact, but sometimes some people interpret it differently because of the different models, right. And you have mentioned a couple of times about structural dynamics. So I think this is also important, maybe we can't go through all of them, but maybe high level, what is structural dynamics and which part is your favorite from this structural
dynamics? Yeah, well it's based on David's research of face to face communication and. Without kind of all the background of how the theory came to be, you know he talks about four levels of being able to look at communication and of all the models around communication that I have been introduced to or even aware of my experience with sexual dynamics. It is probably the most complete way of looking at the complexity in some sense of the dynamics that are happening in
communication. So he talks about there being 4 levels. The first is the most visible, and those are action modes. The 2nd is operating systems. That's a bit about how the norms that we use to relate with one another. Communication domains are the language that we use that sort of indicates the things that we care about or value, and the 4th level being childhood story. And of all four of those, I think my most favorite one is the action modes. Primarily because I think it's
easily accessible to people. You don't need to understand, you know, a ton of the theory behind it and I think it can have an impact just by getting started in that space. So just as a really brief example, I would say all communication, like even an hour dialogue back and forth today, Henry, every sentence that we're saying can be. Coded into one of four actions. So a move sets direction in the
conversation. So you've made several moves as you've prompted me with questions, you know, where you introduced the topic of the book that was a move, and then you've moved us on to talk about the behavioral model. So each of those are moves because they're taking our conversation in a slightly different direction, right? It's pointing to a different aspect or a different topic to talk about. So moves are the first action.
The second does follow. So in many instances I am following behind and supporting the direction. If I were to make a counter move, I might say, you know, let's talk about another model which would actually become the third thing which is an oppose, an oppose offers correction in the conversation. It pushes back and it says let's not talk about the behavioral model. I'd actually like to talk about the model for living next. So that would be an oppose and a new move.
And then the 4th action is bystander and so bystanders, A morally neutral comment about what's happening in the conversation. So what the theory says is that we need all four of those to be voiced and active in the conversation in order for the conversation to be effective. And yet, because we're humans in, you know, doing our human dance in between one another a lot of times in teams.
Or with people that we work with on a regular basis, we can kind of get stuck in certain patterns where we only use a couple of those actions and we use the others less frequently. And so when that happens, the key indicator will be having the same conversation over and over again. So if you start to notice in your team, you talk about one thing one week and gosh darn, you know.
Two weeks later it's you're back talking about it again and you're going wait a minute, I thought, I thought we settled this two weeks ago, but it's resurfaced. I think those are indicators that there's maybe something missing in the conversation and if you're able to separate the what we're talking about, so if you're able to, you and I are talking about model building for the moment, that's our subject, that's our what we're talking about.
But if we felt like we were getting stuck in the conversation, it would be helpful to separate out the topic. And actually start to look at how so mentally that looks a bit for me like starting to step back and go okay. So how am I showing up in this conversation? Is it working right now? Or, you know, I might be following a lot and do I need? Is there something that I'm not saying or is there some way that I might bring another action that might be needed in the
conversation? So I think action modes are my most favorite because they're easy enough to get started with. And I think they are helpful enough to make an impact for both individuals and a team in terms of how you're noticing the conversation play out. Right. So yeah, I think the most important thing about this action mode she mentions for for us, we have to try to balance
it, I guess, right. Not to be stuck just in one mode, right, Either like following only or it's just moving only, Right. Because we tend to have this dynamics between our interactions with people, right? So I think that's really, really great. For me personally, my favorite is the childhood stories, right? So knowing your old narrative and try to build your new
narrative. So I think that is very, very interesting because sometimes our behaviors, even though we are really unconscious about certain behavior, why it was there. So maybe sometimes you could relate it back to our childhood experience or trauma, right. So I think that is really interesting for me. So let's maybe move on for people who are interested about this structural dynamics. Maybe we can put more resources
later on in the show notes. But moving on from this behavioral model, you have this thing called functional awareness. And there are two things that I picked up from this part, which is about leadership range and communicative competence, right? Yeah, this sounds really interesting. Maybe if we can elaborate a little bit more about these two terms. Yeah, I say. All the time. Mainly because I think I used to undervalue it myself. So I think This is why I say it all the time.
Awareness precedes choice, precedes change. So much about model building in general is about building awareness, but particularly in the space of building a behavioral model, the whole point of it is growing your awareness. And that is the work to do, because awareness is the thing that precedes choice. So the more where I am, the more in the moment I can catch sight of something and then make a different choice than the one I'm making right now. And that is where change comes
from. So awareness precedes choice, precedes change. So leadership range is for me about what we were just taught. It has its roots and what we were just talking about. So for some of us. It'll be really natural for us to step forward in our leadership. So I guess one thing to to note is that I see leadership as a way of being and acting that's actually available to everyone. Everyone from a three-year old
can demonstrate leadership. So I don't see it as positional, although I do absolutely think there are people who hold positional leadership be it in their role or their title or something. But I think leadership is an act is available to all of us. And there will be some of us who just naturally, I would call it lead from the front. So they set direction, they are energized. They're just sort of known to be vision setters that comes
naturally to them. And so their work to do will be also stepping back and creating space for others, you know, so that they are leading from behind. And to also consider what it might look like to lead together. So I think there is leading from the front. I think there is leading with others and this idea of stepping back in my leadership range and creating space or supporting other ideas or getting behind other ideas. So I don't see leadership as
one-dimensional. I think there's multiple aspects to it and you know, if you're really good at stepping forward. Then you're going to have to stretch like your edge is going to be likely creating space for others. And how do you help rewire your mindset around that? Because a lot of times if we lead from the front, naturally we will think stories like. Well, it's my job or if I wasn't doing that, then I wouldn't be contributing or I wouldn't be
helpful to the group. And so that some of the work to do and growing your range as a leader. So that's the first concept as leadership range is that I think there's a value in all of that. We'll have one that we do naturally, if you're someone who actually naturally steps back and creates space for others. You're very quick to get behind and support other ideas or ask questions or invite other
voices. Your work to do is likely going to be to also be the one that points and makes them move or sets direction in some way. So there's stretches I think for all of us and there's this need to bring range so that we're able to change something in the moment that isn't working. And I think that takes a great deal of selfawareness, so. Leadership range is that first component, Communicative competence, which that word really is a tongue tire for me.
I've had to really work on it. But communicative competence is really the you know, I use the framework of structural dynamics, but do I have the muscle to bring the different action mode when I need it, or to operate in a different operating system or communication domain? So am I able to be fluent? In the conversation given where the conversation's at or what's needed in the conversation. Thanks so much for explaining about this leadership range. I like what you mentioned, right?
The range here refers to sometimes you have to lead from the front, sometimes you have to step back and leading from behind and it could be together as well, right, Collaboratively working on a certain direction. So I think for us leaders, you have to think about what kind of range that you want to expand to, not just always up from the front leading and making decisions, but sometimes you can support other people to grow as
leaders as well. So I really love that concept and communicative competence I think is about coming back to the structural dynamics thing, right? Understanding these four different levels and the variations inside them and trying to be able to use those concepts and map it to your communication styles or other communication styles, right? So maybe regarding communication, right? And you may have experienced this in your, you know, coaching as well.
Why do you think communications are so challenging, especially in this modern world where I think we all are exposed to different kind of models, different kind of opinions You mentioned about social media, why communication is so challenging and what steps we can do to make sure that we can have effective communication with others? I think there are two things that make communication
challenging. I've come to believe that this was true for me along the way, but I've come to believe that we don't see communication as something that we need to develop or build. I think we see communication as something we do all the time, every day, and that we're already pretty good at it and there's really we can tell ourselves all kinds of stories. I get things done. I'm generally liked by others. You know, I get hired. You know, people ask me to come back for more.
So I think it starts to form this story that, yeah, I don't see you. I mean, I need some other tools or I need some other processes. But I don't really know that communication is really where I would focus my personal development space or even our collective development. So I think that we think we do communication really well.
George Bernard Shaw. He's an Irish playwright and he has a quote that is probably my all time favorite quote and he says the biggest challenge in communication is the illusion that it has taken place and I think that is what happens a lot. So I think those times where we have Groundhog Day conversations or we keep coming back to something or we're trying to make something happen and it gets stuck and it's just not moving forward.
And it can feel difficult or vulnerable or scary to actually slow down and surface what might be the real conversation. Or we have a story that that would just take too much time and we've got to keep moving. So instead of doing that, I think what we do is we resort to processes, tools and techniques. We go searching for a new model, or we go searching for a new process, or we look for a new facilitation. Process that would help a group solve this.
Or we go looking for how do I navigate conflict. And we did ourselves multiple books on how to navigate conflict. So I think all of those are indicators that there's something broken in the conversation in the communication piece. But we don't see that as a place where we should do any sort of development or skill building. And so we go out looking for other things. And you know, I think that just it gets us caught in this sort of endless spin loop.
Thanks so much for your explanation, Marcia. So maybe let's move on to the second model of your model for leading change, right, which is the model for leadership. So maybe if you can elaborate what kind of model that we should think about for our leadership? Here, yes. So I'll say just contextually a little bit as we think about model building, what we're leading towards is a model for leading change.
And if you think about that being kind of your direction, I think about the three models of behavior, leadership and then model for living assertive, sitting under your feet, it's kind of your place of grounded confidence about what you're doing. And so we've talked about models for behavior and really the focus of having a way of reading the dynamics between individuals. And then I think this next component is, it's your
professional model. It's how you know, how will you read, what does leadership mean to you, what would it look like and most importantly, how do you grow leadership for yourself and others. And so there isn't one right way, but I think there absolutely is your way. And in the process of model building, I think it's really helpful David Cantrey is to talk about this concept of imitation
constraint and autonomy. So if you think back for a moment, any time you've been introduced to a new model, so even for some listeners today it might be I'm learning about structural dynamics for the first time. There is an aspect or or time when we are truly going to imitate what we see someone else doing. So it might be you've been introduced to this new way of leading in a new company that you've joined.
It's different for you. So you really start to go, OK, so how do I fit in and how do I imitate what I see happening? And then at some point you are going to have an opposed to what you are experiencing. That's the first sign that I think you've entered into the phase of building your own model. And so imitation leads to constraint. Now, there are some parts of this that I'm going to push back on and say that's not for me or that's not how I would lead or it's not what I would do.
But here is what I would do. And then here's a place that I'm going to actually start to invent or create an aspect or I'd combine this thinking with these other things that I think about. And that's the first place where I think you start to build autonomy and how you think about leadership. So I think there is the question that we're really after is how will I lead and what does leadership look like? It means to me. So I like the way you explain about imitation, the constraint
and autonomy. I think in the beginning when we are all like the junior leader, right, we always imitate, maybe from our manager or maybe some idols that we look from outside. Maybe, you know, people like Steve Jobs, Satya Nadella or people like this, right? And also we try to come up with our own style, so to speak, right? And then in the end, when we are more experienced, I guess we can have our own autonomy in deciding how we want to lead and how to change, make a change, right?
And you mentioned the so-called the peer of model for leadership is actually model for living. So maybe when we talk about model for leadership, we are talking more about professional or you know work life, Yes and. Model for living? Maybe it's for personal. OK. Maybe you can elaborate more. Yeah. Well, first, yes, the professional model of
leadership. And then I think one of the biggest aspects that David Cantor was after was we can't just focus on our professional world or our professional leadership without also a model for living is we'd be out of balance. We'd be not aligned with where we want to be. And so the big question that model for living looks to answer is what does it mean to live a life worth living and just let that question sink in. Like, I think it's such a provocative question.
I've worked with leaders who actually push back on it. Well, you know what? What would I mean to live a life not worth living? That, You know, that could be a little scary to think about. But I think it's a big, open invitation to defining for each of us, what is a life worth living? What is my purpose? Why do I roll out of bed in the morning? What's important to me? What are the values that I
really hold to? And what does balance look like between the professional life and the personal life? What does that even mean? And so it's an invitation to help all of us think through. Like what does that life worth living look like? Wow, I really love that invitation question, right? What is the life that you think worth to live, right? So live the life that is worth living for us. So I think that's a very, very
big question for sure, right? Because for some of us, we may go through the motions maybe with the business with all this, you know, work stuff, family stuff and things like that. And stop thinking about the kind of worth of life that we want to aspire, right. So I think that's really, really great. So having both of these now with the behavioral model at the foundation, your last part is actually model for leading the change itself.
So how can we play with all these different models and come up with our own model for leading change? Yeah. Well, I think clarity about behavior and how it contributes to how we communicate with one another. So the rails that all of our interactions sit on, thinking about how I want to lead, what that looks like, how I want to live and what the balance of living and leadership look like for me, those are the foundation that I stand on. And then this bigger question
about leading change. So in change, at the very beginning of our conversation today, you would have heard me saying early on my model for change was very processed like like I had a belief that if I changed the process in an organization, then all we had to do is communicate the process and manage the change and then change would happen.
That's not wrong. It's just it's a older model for me now it's evolved and the way I would describe my model for leading change today is very behavior centric. So I hold the belief that the thing, but I'm trying to help organizations change is how they communicate and behave with one
another. And that when all of those, when that action and that communication is fully online and a team is able to navigate complexities and breakdown and they're able to build the muscle of making it through a breakdown, not to avoiding breakdown, then that is where change starts to happen. And then I hold the belief that it won't matter what that team or that organization encounters in in the daily life, they can navigate change. So that's just a little bit about my model.
I would also say this part of my model for leading change today is the belief that change doesn't happen until people feel heard and understood and once that comes on board then things will move forward. So the model for leading change for all of us, the question to be asking is what is the thing that I am trying to change? How do I believe change comes
about. I think one of our challenges in change and any team or organization or even at home is we just set about, we see a gap and we say this is how it's working today and this is how I want it to work tomorrow or six months from now or nine months from now. And we set a declaration. We might even paint a big vision and get people to buy into it. And then we just set about expecting it to happen. And I think that is the crux of where things start to break down.
We learn things, things evolve as we start to try to make something new happen. We encounter resistance and then we don't want to work with the resistance or we don't know how to work with resistance. So we just minimize it or we tell people to just do your job or why can't you just do what I said to do And all those things, those phrases that we can use, I think because really good intentions.
But I think for many of us, we just don't know how to work with it. So we've default to the do so because I told you so kind of thing and let's just get on with it. You know we're up to bigger things here. I think every time we do something like that, it's a little bit like sweeping the real topic under the rug and then it then it just gets to the point where the rugs so big we can't open the door, get in the door. And now we've sort of got this
backlog of conversation. So we haven't had conversational debt that we haven't had that we need to have and change just becomes really stagnant or stuck. So all that's my model and I'm really clear about it. I understand why I do what I do. It helps me be clear about
making suggestions for a team. It helps me be clear about I know when I'm going to do something that potentially perturbs or frustrates or angers A-Team and I'm doing so with really clear intention because I'm helping them to try to change something. So I'm just a really big proponent of for all of us both individually and collectively. So if we're trying to lead change, what is the thing that we're trying to change? How do we believe change happens
for that thing? In my case, it's behavior, but for you it might be something entirely different, it might be process. So then how do you go about bringing change to that and what are the steps that you would do? And when you encounter the real world, which will be full of all kinds of different things, how will you adapt? How will you adapt your model to account for some of the real world scenarios that you encounter? So that's the model for leading change is what are we trying to
change? The one other thing I'd say about it is we can all have individual models for change and for part of a team or we're leading an organization. We've got to take the time to get aligned on what we believe our collective model for changes. Otherwise we'll have a leadership team who sees the world differently. Each of them will likely see the world differently and we'll be advocating for different things.
So if I was part of a leadership team and I'm advocating for conversation and behavior, change first, and then the other things will flow, That's my model for change. If I'm working with someone who's up here and their model for change is about process and their belief is that metrics are indicators of organizational change happening. The two of us, we've all been in organizations where we've
experienced this. The two of us on that leadership team are going to be having a model clash about how change happens. And we are going to be really confusing for everyone else because one of us is going to be asking for metrics and proof, the other is going to be asking for behavior. And for those that we are leading and that are working with us, the rest are going to be super confused and frustrated.
So now not only do we have misalignments around what the model for changes, but now we've got confusion happening across the organization. And that'll happen only for so long before people are just going to throw up their hands and be like, look you all sorted out and let me know what you want me to do or I'm confused. I don't know how to operate in this. So I think we have a way of wanting change to happen. I think all of us can agree that change is constant. It's ever evolving.
I think we're at a pace with technology, particularly where it's constant and fast. And if we don't find ways to create structures to help us communicate with one another and help us lead change effectively, we're really going to be left behind. And I think it's going to give you more difficult than it is today. So I'm a huge advocate for defining your own model, but also collectively as a leadership system. How do we want to bring about change?
And so if we've got different models, let's sort that out first and let's come to alignment on how we're going to lead change here in this organization. Let's have that model building conversation and now we can be an aligned leadership team asking for things, setting direction and inviting others into that process. And it's going to work a lot better so. Wow, really a great reminder for us leaders, right.
So not only the leaders model but also with the peers, also with the people within the team, right. The collective model that we want to adapt together. And when there's a model crash, actually, yeah, sometimes they may create like silos or maybe duality, right. So you follow a certain stuff for certain leaders, but different leaders is a different thing. So I think that's a very, very good reminder for all of us. And I like the book. It's actually a workbook, right?
It's not really just theories. And you know, just telling you what stuff, but actually you go through the reflection looking what kind of models that resonate with you maybe from your past as well past experience. So I think this book is really not just a theory book, but it's a workbook that you can use to actually look and build into your perfect model for the time being, right until you evolve
and get another model. So thank you so much for sharing Marcia. As we reach the end of our conversation, I only have one last question which I normally ask for all my guests here in tech regional podcast and the question is called the tree technical leadership wisdom. So you can think of it just like an advice that you wanna give to us listeners to learn from you. So maybe if you can share your version of tree technical leadership wisdom, Yeah.
Well, I think that the 1st place I'd point all of us is to focus on how we're communicating with one another. So the idea would be when things get tough or difficult, can you separate the what from the how? So the what is the topic that we're talking about? How will be, how we're engaging
in the conversation. So I think there's just a reflective piece to that is, you know, even if you take the four player model, move, follow, oppose and bystand or all four of those actions coming online or is there one action that I'm getting stuck in, Am I stuck in oppose and I really could use bystand in the conversation or am I stuck in move and I really need to step back and Createspace for others.
So I think the biggest pieces understand the role that communication plays in everything that we're doing and whether it's moving forward or not. And resist the temptation to go find new things and to actually bring it back to how we're communicating and to be able to separate your health from your what will be the first place to to be able to catch sight of that. So that would be my first tip. I think my second one would be carving out time to slow the conversation down.
It's this idea that yes, we need pace in our organizations. We need those 30 minute meetings. They service a purpose and there also is real value in slowing things down, building relationships, bringing the real conversation in the room. So even in my company, Team Catapult over the last several years, we have taken to following our own advice. We've found it really helpful. And once a month, the first Thursday of every month for 1/2 day is our dialogue space. So it's agendaless.
Anybody can bring any topic, and the goal is really to talk about how we're working with one another so we resist the temptation to talk about all the other things. And that's probably some of the richest dialogue I have. And it's become so valuable for me because there are times where we can just get caught up and moving things forward. I'm I'm can be just as guilty of that and I know that we've got the space to slow down so it's really helpful to have it carved
out on the calendar. So I would just encourage everyone to be thinking about how you carve out that time for you. That sort of pace and cadence works for us. I just had someone on my podcast there and he works in two weeks sprints with A1 week retrospective. So it's a three-week kind of time box. So you know for them they move at such a pace in their covering so much that the one week retrospective where they actually create time to reflect.
So I think that's another example of how you might carve out time. I think the third thing I'd say is growing your leadership range is work to do for all of us. So just noticing where your tendencies are and looking for ways to change the range that you have your ability to bring something different in the moment when it's needed and not to be so stuck or believe that one version of that is the only version that adds value. So I think it's ongoing work.
I don't think we're ever done with it and I think there's such a gift in being able to have range, you know, leadership. So this would be my free. Right. I think that's really lovely. I love all of them actually. The 1st is like focus on how we communicate, right? I think sometimes we tend to. You know, maybe embody a certain style all the way from childhood up until now. But knowing this structural dynamics, right, knowing the different options, different modes that people have, I think
it's really, really key. And I love the last one. You know, as leaders, it is our responsibility to find the range right? Don't get stuck into a certain mode only. So, Marsha, if people love this conversation and they want to follow up with you or find your resources, is there a place where they can reach out online?
Yes, a couple places. The best way to connect with me is through LinkedIn, so you can find me at Marcia Acker on LinkedIn. And if you're interested in the Builder model book, you can go to buildermodel.com and you can download a free resource from there that'll give you kind of a preview of both the book and what some of the journaling prompts look like in it. And then if you're interested in coaching for a leader or leadership team, you can find me
at teamcatapult.com. So those are a couple of places. Thank you. I'll make sure to put it in the show notes. Thank you so much. I hope the listeners here today are inspired about building their own model for leading change, becoming the leaders that they want instead of just stuff from the situation. So thank you again for your sharing, Marcia. Henry, thanks for having me. It was great. Thank you for listening to this episode and for staying right
until the end. If you highly enjoyed it, I would appreciate if you share it with your friends and colleagues who you think would also benefit from listening to this episode. And if you're new to the podcast, make sure to subscribe and leave me your valuable review and feedback. It helps me a lot in order to grow this podcast better. You can also find the full show notes of this conversation on the episode page at Technically journal dot dev website,
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