And so I think the first thing I would tell talent to do is not to start a job search by looking for jobs, to really start a job search by understanding at a deeper level who you are, what you value, how you like to work, what type of career you're building. And most important, like what
are you solving for right now? Hey everyone, my name is Henry Surya Viravan. And you're listening to the Technical Journal Podcast, the show where I'll be bringing you, the greatest technical leaders, practitioners and thought leaders in the industry to discuss about their journey, ideas and practices that we all can learn and apply to build a highly performing technical team and to make an impact in your personal work. So let's dive into our journal.
Welcome back to the Techly Journal Podcast, the podcast where you can learn about technical leadership and excellence from my conversations with great 4 leaders in the tech industry. If you haven't, please subscribe on your podcast app and social media on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram, and for video contents. You can also subscribe on YouTube and TikTok and if you have been enjoying Techly, journal contents.
Support my work by either buying me a coffee at techlyjunal dot def tip or becoming a patron at techlyjunal dot def patron. My guest for today's episode is Andre Martin. Dr. Andre is the author of Wrong Fit Right Fit. In this episode he shared the importance of finding the right fit company for us in our work. Dr. Andre used the analogy of writing with a non dominant hand to explain working in a wrong
fit company. He shared some of the common misalignments such as the modern hiring practices, infinite browsing and company cultured act trend. Dr. Andre then explained how we can work towards finding our right fit company by doing more self reflection using some fit excursions shared in his book. He also touched on the important concept of buffers and the role of leaders and managers in the
workplace towards the end. Dr. Andre shared some practical tips on how companies can create a better right fit culture in the organizations. I hope you enjoy listening to this episode and find some useful tips to finding the right fit, company and work. And if you think someone else will benefit from this episode, please help Share it with your colleagues, your friends and communities and leave a 5 star rating and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
It will help me a lot in getting more people discover and listen to this podcast. And I really appreciate it. Let's go to my conversation with Dr. Andre after quick words from our sponsor. Are you looking for a new cool swag? Techly Juno now offers you some swags that you can purchase online. These swags are printed on demand based on your preference and will be delivered safely to you all over the world.
Where shipping is available, check out all the cool swags available by visiting Techly Juno dot dev shop. And don't forget to break yourself once you receive any of those swags. Hello everyone. Welcome to the new episode of the Tech Digital Podcast. Today, I'm very happy to have Doctor Andre Martin here. He is the author of Wrong Fit, Right Fit. Why How we work matters more than ever. So Doctor Andre Martin is an organizational psychologist.
So I always love to talk with authors in this kind of area so that we can learn how to build. A high performing organization where people are thriving and happy and engaged as well. So Dr. Andre, welcome to the show. Really happy to have you here. Thank you, Henry. It's great to be here. Dr. Andre, I love to ask my guests to first share about themselves, right? Talking more about maybe career highlights or major turning points so that we can all learn from you.
Fantastic. So I'm currently living here in Portland OR with my wife. I have two kids, 2 English labs and my career started back in grad school and I became an organizational psychologist and my first job was in a small consulting firm working in steel mills and factories in the Midwest doing team based leader assessments.
And then I went to a place called the Center for Creative Leadership, which is one of the top executive development firms in the world, and really got to work with Coach, train some of the best leaders in the world and learned a ton about what it means to run a company and how to be a leader and build a great culture. And I had these series of roles either as the Chief Learning Officer or Chief Talent Officer at renowned companies like Mars, Nike, Target and Google.
And since leaving Google, I've really started working with VC and growth equity firms, doing human capital operating work for them. So really, helping founders to just build better companies, and I'd say all of those experiences have just been fantastic. I've learned a ton about culture, around how to build a great work environment, and really how to help talent grow faster than the company.
Thanks for sharing your story. So one thing that we're going to learn today is from your experience, right, having work in all these great companies and also from your experience how to build talents and having people more thriving in the companies. So let's start with your book. Right. Wrong fit. Right fit. The title itself sounds very intriguing, right? I'm sure in the past few years people have been experiencing this kind of maybe personal challenges, right?
How to find the right fit company to work with? And you say that there is a right fit company waiting for everyone. So let us talk maybe a little bit more about why do you see this as a problem or what kind of challenges that people are seeing at this time. Yeah, Henry. So I'd start with just the reason that I started writing the book.
Originally, I thought I was going to write a book about culture in this new era of work, the post COVID, hybrid ways of working, the great resignation, all the things. And so I went into the book writing starting with this idea that it's really about good or bad culture. And if you can figure out the keys to building a great culture, you can get talent to come and they'll stay there for
their career. And I think what happened is that early in the conversations, I started by just talking to everyone in my network, CE O's, Chr, O's, great leaders, aspiring talent. And what became really clear really fast was there's not one way to build a great culture, There's not one great company, And I take my own experience. Target is very different than Mars, is very different than Nike, is very different than Google.
And so that got me on this place of, hey, maybe it isn't about good or bad culture or one right way to build a company. Maybe it's around right or wrong fit. So how can we help companies get clearer about how they work, how they collaborate, how they solve problems, manage conflict, socialize, develop people, give feedback, all the things that make up work. And what if we could help talent figure out their work preferences? What do I value and how I like to work?
And then if we can put those two things together, more talent will land in companies that allow them to just do their best every day. Right. So I think it's what you're saying is like it's not just about great culture, great companies, right. So everyone has a place in any kind of companies as long as it fits their preference right, either way of working or the kind of people that were there. Maybe the job itself whether
it's challenging or not. So I think the key message first is about finding the right fit, right? But one thing that I want to highlight is that you say that if we work at a wrong fit company, right, the metaphor is like writing with our non dominant hand. So maybe elaborate a little bit more about this metaphor. Yeah. So Henry, let me start with just a stat that sort of got me really motivated to write the
book. And it's a Gallup statistic that says we have $7.8 trillion of lost productivity in our companies due to disengagement due to the idea that people don't feel connected to their company, connected to their job. And so they're just not doing their best work. And so because our talents not doing their best work, then we're not delivering the best for our customers.
And so when I think about engagement, an easy way to think about that is when you're in an engaging environment, a place that makes sense to you, that works the way that you work. Work feels easy, It's effortless, you're putting in the hours, but it doesn't feel hard. And when you're in a wrong fit environment, it's stressful, you feel less productive, you feel less competent, you have less
confidence in your work. And all those things from a metaphor standpoint sort of became really clear in this metaphor about writing with your dominant or non dominant hand. When we write with their dominant hand, it's easy, it's fluid, it's high quality. We don't even have to think about it right. We're just writing whatever poetry or great novel or great work that we're we're working on. When you work with your non dominant hand, if you ever tried it, it's really hard.
Your quality is terrible, it's stressful, it takes a lot of effort and concentration and in the end you walk out not feeling like it's your best work. And so that was sort of a metaphor that everyone could relate to, and you could have a real visceral feeling of what it feels like if you're not in a highly engaged environment that fits you. I did give it a try to write with a non dominant hand before, right? It is like what you said, it's really hard. I mean we can produce the
output. Maybe other people can still read what you wrote. But yeah, it's like a lot of effort. We need to focus and concentrate, right, and try to be conscious with the movement of our hands. I think similar things when we work in a company that is a wrong fit for us, right? We try to adapt. We try our best to work hard. And I think like what you said in the beginning, right, I personally also experienced it myself. It's not about the companies. So I work in big companies,
great companies as well. But sometimes when you just didn't feel that is the right place for you, I think you will feel these kind of things as well. So what do you think are some of the misalignment so to speak where even though the person works in a great companies but they still don't feel it's the right fit for them. Maybe you can share a little bit more what kind of misalignments that people have normally in their working environment.
Yeah, I'd be happy to. I think it's important for the listeners, first Henry, to realize that the book is based on about 100 interviews with talent from all over the world, from CE O's and founders down to aspiring talent just entering the workplace. And the one thing that was really cool for me and holding those interviews was everybody's had a right fit and a wrong fit experience.
And when they talk about the wrong fit experience, they talk about feeling like they weren't at home, they couldn't be themselves. And one of the my favorites is they talked about this idea of it felt like everyone had the secret decoder ring of success except for me. And they would look out in the world and say there's people that look like me, there's people that work like me, there's people that have the same experiences, knowledge and
education that I have. And it looks like every day that this is just easy for them, that success comes to them every time they pick up a pin or go to a meeting. And for the person talking, it still felt really hard. And I think what that tells you is that, you know, it's not as simple as just having the right set of skills or the right values that the way we work there's a lot of really
important elements. And if you don't fit, the other thing that a lot of the folks in wrong fit environments told me is when they didn't fit, you know what they did, Henry, they worked harder. They tried to change their ways of working, they tried to alter who they are. They effectively tried to work with their non dominant hand and it just cost them energy, cost them engagement, cost them confidence and in many cases almost cost them their careers.
And why do you think people? I mean, the first preference for them is to work harder, right? I think sometimes this is quite intriguing. So we know that we are not happy doing that kind of job or being in that environment. But why people? The first preference is always to work harder, try to learn more, do more and things like that. Yeah, I think here it comes down to a couple things. First is the way our HR systems are set up. We're sort of made to feel like
we're not performing well. Like we're not doing the job we're supposed to do. Because you think about your performance reviews, right? If you're not in a right fit environment, there's a chance you're getting a three instead of A5. And so someone's telling you you're not doing a good enough job when in fact it's not that you're not doing it, it's that the system, the way the company works, doesn't make it easy for you.
And so I think the first thing is many of our HR systems make us feel like it's our fault that were flawed or incapable or not good enough. And that's just not true. A number of my interviewers left these wrong fit experiences where they felt that way. And they've gone on to have exceptional careers. They've built companies. They're the CEO, the CHRO, the head of technology for all these
great places. And they look back at those wrong fit stories and they're like people were telling that I wasn't good and it wasn't that they weren't good, they just didn't fit. And so I think that's one issue. I think the second thing is we all want to succeed. We all want to be great. We all want to do a good job. I believe that about most people. And so when we're not feeling like we're doing our best work, we tend to just want to try harder, stay longer hours, put
in more effort. And in the end, that just gets us more stressed, more frustrated, and it also has a profound impact on our life outside of work. Yeah. So I think the profound impact, like you said, outside work, right? I think that really, really is important for people to realize, right? So you may be frustrated at work and you think you can switch off at home, but most of the times, from my personal experience, you can't, right?
It will just affect you. Sometimes it's about negativity, sometimes the mood that you bring to other people. So do realize that And I think what you said just now when you explain the HR system the way like the performance management is done, right. So I think people have to realize sometimes if you didn't perform well in that particular cycle in that particular company, it doesn't mean that you are not good, right. So I think that's a key message that I just want to highlight as well.
So you mentioned about way of working and in your book you mentioned a lot of times about way of working. First of all, what is way of working and why is it so important for people to find the right fit way of working? Yeah, when you think about it, we assume that when we go to our job, no matter what company that we work in, it's the same job, right? Engineer. One company's the same job as an engineer in another. But what's really interesting is when you break down how
companies work. When you think about how a company sets strategy, prioritizes, collaborates, solves problems, brainstorms, socializes, gives feedback, develops people, how they gather the relationship with time, how they think about rest and recovery. All these things are very different depending on the company you work in. And companies aren't very good at defining those. That is, they don't tell people
overtly on their first day. Here's the road map, the playbook for how our company works going be great. What they do instead is they kind of let those grow organically. They just let them sort of be created over time by leaders who come in and take positions and do these new things. And so two things happen on one side. There's not really that recipe for success anymore. It's more of just a bunch of different leaders ways of preferring to work.
And the other thing that happens is we actually ask talent to bump into those. So because we're not really clear and consistent about how we work in a company, we say, Henry on your second day, get out there and you'll figure it out. But The thing is every time I have to try to figure out how to be great, my creative energy is going to coordination as opposed to my craft or what I do really
well. So we're bleeding engagement and creative energy on really great people trying to figure out how to be really great inside the company. And so I guess the thesis is if companies were a little bit clearer about how they worked, how they did all those things I talked about and they were consistent in asking any leader that joins the company to learn how work gets done here.
And then if they told talent on their first day how to get it done, imagine how much faster you are to productivity and how much a better chance you have of being successful. Right. So I think I read some parts of your book where you mentioned when the company was small, maybe they did define like what kind of culture, what kind of values they want. But as the company grows and they hire more outsiders, right, the leaders, the managers, they all bring their own way of working, right?
But you as a company don't actually ask them to change the way of working so that it follows what the company values. So I think that's also a great thing as well for leaders here to understand that you cannot just let the culture of the values grow organically because there's so many people. And it can bring you to either positive for sure, there's a chance for that, but mostly negative, right, because there's just too many perspectives at one time.
First of all, thank you for reading it. I mean, I couldn't have done a better job of talking about that if I tried. But I do want to underline a point that you made in there, which is every company has a secret sauce. It has a a unique way that it works. Think of it as a playbook or as an operating model for success and it usually originates way
back in the founding. And then as we continue to do work, because we're in close proximity to each other, we model the way we want other people to work. So they see it, they pick it up, they work like we work. But then what tends to happen is imagine if you're let's say 100 person organization and you add 200 people to your company. Those 200 people are coming from somewhere else that has a different way of working that models different things.
So they're all bring a backpack full of ways that work gets done from principals work is based on to practices and tools that we use to even the platforms that we have. And so what's really interesting about this is because we haven't really done our due diligence on keeping a hold of our secret way of doing, working our, you know, our secret sauce. We end up creating 3 versions of the company. The first version of the company is the one that recruiters give
us in hiring. It's sort of this aspirational version of the company, either who it was when it was young or what we wish it was every day. And we're going to present this to you like the greatest brand campaign ever. And so I think, wow, what a great place to work. I can't wait to join. I'm meeting my leaders on their best day. I'm getting introduced to people who have all this energy and excitement because they want to impress me. They want me to come join,
right. And then you get there the first day and you get sort of the best version of the real company. They put the best leaders into your orientation program. They show you the products, they tell you all these great customer stories. They introduce you to the work platforms that actually work and they have. You sort of use those things like e-mail or our insurance systems when you pick your insurance. And then the last version of the company is the company you work
in every day. And often that's where we actually run into the reality of what it's going to feel like any given Tuesday. And think about it, if we start here with this aspirational version and by the time we're in our second week, we're working basically an entirely different company. And we just eroded the engagement and excitement that a new joiner has.
And that's why we're seeing statistics like 30% of new joiners are leaving their companies within the first three months, citing a lack of development and unclear expectations. We're also seeing that about 50 some percent of employees, if they do stay six months, they continue to look for a job. That means that they're not
actually committed. And in the other staff that stays with me is from MIT, which they did a big sort of research project looking at the espouse values of the company, what the company says they are versus how it feels to work in the company based on review sites like in the Comparably and Glass door. And you know what they found. 0 correlation between the espouse values and the values that are actually in the company
day-to-day. And in some places, Henry, there's a negative correlation, which means they'll stand up and say innovation matters to us. And in fact, the employees are saying this isn't an innovative company at all. So you think about that. Think about what that does to engagement and commitment and my ability to sort of feel like I can be a success. You started to unpack so many things I want to cover, but let's start one by one, right.
So I think I left. And when you explained that and when I read parts of your book about this as well, right, there are three versions of the company, right. So when we recruit, we always picture the best or sometimes even too much aspirational, right? So we want to be X. We are not there, but we aspire to be that kind of a company, right. I think that is the first kind of like false version, because talents will. Tend to think that is true.
And also the glass door thing, the review websites. I know that I read from some sources that sometimes the company actually deleted negative comments, asked employees to write good comments. So all these are like good kind of projections so that talents want to work with them. So I think it goes back to what you mentioned as a culture deck kind of a trend it started by the startups. So why do you think this kind of culture deck, aspirational kind of values of a company are
dangerous? So maybe if you can elaborate a little bit more on that. Well, here's the things I talked about some of these trends, things like the rise of the culture deck, right, which you know Netflix was the first, but many of the tech based companies have used them where they sort of show. I think what they were meaning to do, hoping to do is to say, hey, we run our company
differently eventually. What that turned into though was instead of being honest and authentic about here's how the company runs today and so come here if you work this way and here's where we're trying to get. Instead they just started presenting where we're trying to get often. And so the culture deck, which was meant to teach people the secret sauce turned into really
brand marketing campaigns. When you think about, I mean go to any career site, almost of any company out there and it's filled with poetry and inspiring languages and great leaders, stories and happy employees. And I think for a lot of folks that's true. But in all the companies I've been in, about 60% and Gallup would say it's probably 32% on
average. But often the brands I've been about 60% of people are really happy they're content and then 40% are struggling, they're riding with their non dominant hand. And although the brand marketing and recruiting isn't the only problem, it's a big one, right, because it's our first and only set of information allows us to
make a good decision. And so I think the culture that started this idea of just turning companies into brand campaigns and so whoever can look the coolest is bound to get the best employees. Yeah. I think that's the current trend in the hiring world, I would say. Which leads to what you said in the earlier conversation that you mentioned, like some percentage of these new joiners, right after six months they are still looking for other jobs, right?
They are still browsing. So you call this infinite browsing, the lack of commitment, right? So this is a new trend for me, a new insight. So maybe if you can explain the danger of this infinite browsing for employees, why do you think they are still looking for new jobs even though they have been there for like 6 months?
Well, Henry have to start by giving credit for the term infinite browsing from a book that I think everyone should read called Dedicated. It's by an author named Pete Davis and he's talking about this crisis of commitment, not just in jobs but all over the world. You know, whether you look at divorce rates for marriage, how often people leave their hometowns to the groups we join
and leave to the companies. And his thesis is really one that, you know, really is a a trend that's important to me, which is because of things like social media, because of marketing campaigns by companies, no one really has a clear version of the truth. All of a sudden we have a million stories of where the grass is greener. You pick up your phone, you get on TikTok or Facebook, somebody's doing something really cool and you think, God,
I want to do that. And so we end up chasing this idea of FOMO or the fear of missing out. And so in almost every pursuit, we're kind of keeping 1 foot in and 1 foot out. Maybe there's something better, maybe there's a better job, a better partner, a better best friend, a better city to live in. And so we're not committing fully.
And so, you know, I look at that trend, I think, man, if companies could be a little bit more authentic and talent could be a little bit clearer about what they want, not what everyone else is up to, but what they want, maybe we could rebuild commitment. And with it, I think you just see an upswing in productivity, morale, engagement, innovation, all those things. So I think this kind of distraction, right, social media marketing campaign.
So we all are aware about that danger and it also seeps to the employment world as well, right? So even when you have started a new job, sometimes you think, oh, maybe this is not the right one. There's another better job out there and you keep looking, right? That's so that kind of like brings you to a lack of commitment. It's a good segue for us to talk
about individuals, right. So if we now know that there's a right fit company for all of us, how shall we prepare ourselves so that we are not being tricked by the marketing campaign or the culture deck, right. So how can individuals start looking for the right fit company? You know, throughout the interviews, a lot of the book is based on the insights of talent, just like you and me who've gone through this and have some words of wisdom for us.
And one of the things that came up often, I always ask the interviewees, when did you know it was a wrong fit? When did you know you were going to a company that didn't work the way you worked? And a lot of you know, they said it was really interesting here. They said, if I'm being totally honest, I knew it in the interview. I just chose not to pay attention to it.
I chose not to pay attention to information that was going to keep me from taking this job at this cool brand, at this great company for better pay, a bigger title, all those things that we
worry about. And so I think the first thing I would tell talent to do is not to start a job search by looking for jobs, To really start a job search by understanding at a deeper level who you are, what you value, how you like to work, what type of career you're building, what you're solving for for the next 10 years, where you want your life to be. And most important, like what are you solving for right now.
And in all the interviews, the one consistent piece of feedback to anyone looking for a job is we got to do more self reflection, know ourselves and what we're looking for and then start doing the job search. And if we don't do that piece of work first, we just get caught in a manipulated environment that you're not getting version of the truth. So it's harder to make a good decision. So yeah, I think this part of the book I find is like the socalled the best part of your book, right.
So you invite people to actually do self reflection. So you're saying that's not start finding the job by looking for the job or the role that you want, right? Let's start looking internally inside, right. So what are your values? What kind of people you want to work, What are you solving for, right? And sometimes it's also different for different stages of life. So I think the first key thing
is about self reflection. So maybe, if you don't mind, let's go through, I know you have maybe eight or nine kind of self reflection questions. Maybe if you can pick some favorites. What are some of these questions that people should ponder about before they look for a new job? The first thing I'd say here, you kind of brought it up is the cool thing about these excursions is you should do them every year, right? You should do them every time
you transition a job. You should do it every time you get a new leader or your company goes through transformation. Because nothing's static. Our companies aren't static. The ways of working aren't static, and who we are isn't static. So they're built in a way that says, hey, it'd be really smart to do them once a year, if not more. A few of my favorites.
So the first one is one of the ones I think about a lot personally, which is this excursion that helps you get clear about what you value in big decisions. And so often when you ask someone what they value, they give you the greatest hits. Oh, I value innovation, I value relationships, I value curiosity.
And those are probably true. But the real difference in this excursion is I have you think about the big decisions in life 1st, and then I ask you in those decisions, what were the factors that weighed most heavily on you? And then I have people look at a list of values and have them sort of do a value ladder, which is a for sort of which values matter. And the reason I find this exercise compelling is I would love to think about myself as a
risk taker. I would love to think of myself as someone who values creativity and innovation. But the truth is, when I look at the big decisions I make in life, Henry, I value financial security above all else, right? And I comes from, I grew up in a really unstable environment as a kid. My dad wasn't good with money, didn't always kind of do the best by the family. So we kind of had this up and down sort of childhood.
And I think growing up that way has me hold this value of financial security in every big decision I make. And I think being honest about that helps me think about the jobs and the places I join. I'm probably not the startup guy, too much risk and so that's probably why I worked for a lot of these big companies overtime. So that's one that I really like. Another one that I'm really compelled by is an excursion that has you sort of determine
what your career is about. Is your career about company? That is. Do I love this brand and this product so much that I can't imagine working anywhere else? Are you of craft, which is I have this deep expertise or knowledge that I want to be the best in the world at? Or are you of cause where I have a big injustice or problem in the world that I just have to solve?
And I think what's been really compelling about this excursion is, depending on your answer, you create an entirely different career with entirely different choices. And I don't know that talent really recognizes those trade-offs. I'll give you an example, and then we can move on. I'm a craft person, right? I've been about organizational psychology and culture and leadership, and it's the only thing I care about. It's everything. I'm obsessed by it.
If I stayed at one company my whole career, I could never be best in class. Because in order to be great in culture, you have to see a lot of different cultures. And so that means that no matter how much I love the companies I was at, I couldn't stay because there's no way I could gain the sort of depth of knowledge in that area if I did. And so I had to make some sacrifices and choices around
what my career is going to look. Like, yeah, so I think company, craft and cost is also one of my favorite excursion, right? So I think that's really, really great that you brought it up so that people can ponder, right? So when you look for a job, do you want to be associated with a good company, right? And hence you probably stay longer there or you want to improve your craft or what? Maybe Daniel Pink says mustry or do you want to work on a cause, right?
Maybe it could be poverty, sustainability or those kind of things, right. So I think that's really a good question. And I also love the first thing, the first excursion that you mentioned right is about knowing yourself in big decisions because sometimes we think we are you know this kind of characteristic, but looking back on all the big decisions that we made, we actually think differently, right. So our thoughts and our actions
are totally different. So I think that's a really good insights as well for people look for your big decisions. I think this. Excursions to me is one of the great things that people can start doing maybe in their current job as well, right? Assess where you are at the moment, are you in the right fit and also for the next job. So I think this is really, really key do yourself reflection. So maybe let's move on to the next thing that I want to discuss.
Right, You mentioned that. When you interviewed all these people, they kind of like realized that they may go into a wrong fit company in the interview itself, right? So maybe if you can maybe give some advice, the gotchas that you think people should avoid when they experience this in the interview so that they don't pick the wrong choice. And sometimes it's also about, you know, job description, career page and all those kinds of brand of marketing as well,
right? That may lead us to think that this is still the right company for me. So maybe if you can explain that, that would be great, yes. And here I'll start with just the experience of interviewing, right? And if you stand back from the process of interviewing for a job, there's some real interesting elements to it, right? The first one is that as a talent, I show up as the absolute best version of myself. I've studied the company, I've got all the answers to the interview questions.
I'm dressed the best you'll ever see me dressed in my life. And the same's true for the company. The company's showing up on their best day in their best moment. And The thing is, when we all show up on our best behavior, it's not reality. And I always think about that idea of, hey, if you've ever dated, you know this feeling, first dates tend to go really well, but then almost every relationship, by the second or third or fourth date, you can't stand the person.
And the same's true for interviewing. So we act like it's a first date when we're actually making a commitment that could last a lifetime. It's like the second biggest commitment we'll make behind marriage. I think I saw a stat, and it's in the book, that we'll spend 13.5 full years every moment, every second, every day of our adult lives at work.
It's second only to sleeping. And yet we make the choice on a really incomplete set of data with only a few touch points when people are on their best behavior. Like, how can you ever make a great decision? And then the other interesting, Henry, is that there's some parts of our brain that get in our way, right. One of them is sort of the biases that we create. And there's a great bias we talked about earlier called
confirmation bias. And confirmation bias is sort of this sense of when we're motivated to make a certain decision like wanting to join a company, we will pay more attention to confirming information and less or almost no attention to disconfirming information. And so I guess my insight to anyone who's interviewing is, first, do the excursions, know yourself really well. Secondly is be really careful of the source of the information and where you're getting it right.
So we often will hear from recruiters, we'll talk to our hiring manager, we'll go through an interviewing process. We might be on site for a short amount of time. All those are company produced assets. And so make sure you're balancing what you're picking up in the interview process with external and objective sources of information. Great. One is the employee review sites, right?
All those places where employees go and they give reviews of companies, they're often disgruntled employees, but there's some patterns and themes that you can see clearly there or at least questions you can ask. I think secondly is annual reports, ESG reports videos. Most leaders in most companies do videos. And so you can see them interacting, get a sense on who they are and how they show up. And then I think third is really make sure that you're using your network.
One of my favorite sources of information in an interview process is to find people on LinkedIn that work for the company. I'm interviewing out for a long time, but recently left. And I reach out to them and say, hey, I want to hear about your experience and I want to hear why you left. And most people that have left the company are willing to talk and share the honest feeling that you're going to have when you work there. So those are a few pieces of advice in the book.
There's a ton more. Yeah, I love all your advices, right? Sometimes we didn't exercise all these options even though we do have it. Like for example in your LinkedIn network, find people who have worked in that company, that's the first thing. Or people who have worked there and left the company. So I think those are really great factual information I
would say. And the other thing that you mentioned, which I find people sometimes not doing in the interview itself, you can ask critical questions, right? Critical questions like how are the best performers in the company doing right? What kind of values? How do you make big decisions in the company and things like
that? So I think you can also ask that during the interview, not just like ask shallow questions like what are the technology or what kind of things that people are drawn into day-to-day and things like that. So I think thanks for all these insights. So when we do an interview, let's put up more effort so that we don't. Choose the wrong fit company right? So the other section of your book is You mentioned this concept of buffers.
I don't know much what buffer means, but if you can elaborate a little bit more. Why do you think buffers is also important for people to choose the right fit company? Yeah. It starts here, Henry, is that most companies are growing and changing and shifting and moving and altering the way they work and what they value. And so with that, I think one of the insights from the interview interviewees is that right fit is pretty tenuous.
That means that if you have it, you're really lucky and there's a chance that it might go away. You get a new leader, you change jobs, you go through a big transformation as the company. And so the whole chapter on buffers was really meant to say, hey, if you're in a right fit experience, there's things you can do to strengthen and guarantee that that right fit
stays. If you're in a wrong fit or a hard fit experiences, these buffers can make it feel easier, make it better, and give you a fighting chance to sort of turn it into right fit. Because the last thing I want for people to do is to say, Oh my God, I don't fit. I should just leave and it's like maybe, but that's not the only answer. And so these buffers really give people a set of tools and tricks and tips on how to create a stronger relationship with the company.
And there's two types, right? There's the inspirational buffers, these things that connect us to meaning and purpose and impact, and those things that are sort of higher level. And then there's a set of relational buffers. So the people we surround ourselves with make a difference in how sort of connected and committed we are to the companies we're part of.
And so there's a set of buffers that are about the relationships we have and how we think about them that are helpful to talent to keep right fit or to find it if you don't have it. Yeah. Thanks for elaborating. These two types of buffers, the inspirational buffers, things like meaningful work, growth opportunities. Or maybe the cost that the company is fighting for, right, that those kind of things can also help.
Even though you think that the way of working probably is a bit frustrating, but you have this kind of inspirational buffers to actually motivate you. The other aspect is the relational buffer, right? So this is another question related to relational buffer. You mentioned that the impact of a manager is actually very crucial for any kind of company to figure out that that is the right fit company for them,
right? Also, we know the saying that people don't quit their jobs, they quit their managers, right? So manager is really, really important. So tell us a little bit more about the role of the leader of manager in the company. Yeah. So I'll say a couple things to start, Henry is in this sort of age of horizontal working or more agile ways of working, I actually think the concept of a manager mattering is shifting
slightly, right? So Gallup will tell you 70% of your engagement is dictated by your direct manager. And when I look at the way organizations are set up today, I actually think that management is more of a collective act and we probably have two or three managers at any given time. They're impacting our engagement. And so thinking about not just the person you report to, but the people that you're doing work for and who they are and what they value and how they come to work.
And you know, I think that the second part of that is that, hey, we need to start seeing our managers as team leaders. And we also have to realize that as talent, you make your manager right. The thing that I always hear people say is I don't have a good manager. So I left them like, hey, I don't think you know this, but you as a team you can shape your manager. Like one of the greatest tools we have is positive
reinforcement. BF Skinner in my area of psychology sort of started this work of positive reinforcement. And one of the insights I would give any talent to say, hey, if you want a great manager, make them great. And how do you do that? You do that by first knowing what you need out of your manager in order for you to be at your best. So who is your ideal leader? What do they value? How do they come to work? How do they support you as an employee?
And then be really clear with your manager about what you need. Most managers want to be great, they just don't know how. And so if you tell them this is what I need from you, many are going to come towards it. The other thing you can do is when you see your manager do something that is sort of on your list of things that you need, give them feedback. Not feedback of hey Bosh did a good job, give them feedback about the thing that they did.
Because the truth is, the higher you go in a company, the less feedback you get. It's odd, but it's true. And so anytime someone's willing to say hey in this meeting when you open up the meeting and you asked everyone what was the best part of their weekend. That really mattered to me because it made me feel valued 9 times out of 10. You know what's gonna happen at the next meeting?
Manager's gonna do that again. And so I think the most important thing about a manager is, yes, they will dictate your engagement, but you have the ability to shape them and so you should try to do that. Yeah, this is another great insights that I think people should learn, right? So don't just get resigned to what the type of manager you have, right? You can also make your manager
like you said, right? So sometimes positive reinforcements tell them that they are doing the things that you like and also if there are any kind of feedback, right, please do give them. So I also realize as you rise through the ranks, right, people tend to probably hesitate when they want to give critical feedback because of via, you know, hierarchies and performance management and
things like that. So I think giving critical feedback is also useful and many leaders actually are looking forward for that, right, because there's no better way of learning how to improve rather than the people that you're working with. So I think that's really great insights. So thank you for mentioning that we can also make an impact to our managers. So we've been talking a lot from the employee perspective, right. So the people who work, how about the company's side, right.
So what are the responsibilities so that they can create the better right fit culture for talents to come in to them? I'd say first and foremost, Henry, you know, companies need to sort of take three steps back, open their eyes really wide and think harder about how we work when we're at our best, right. And there's sort of three big categories of work that I believe the company needs to get really clear and authentic about. First, is the work principles, right?
So these are ground rules or norms that we use to define how work gets done. So I'll give you one that's, you know, sort of pithy, but when you think about selling an idea. Some people will say, hey, you know, we work in full sentences, not in poetry. That's a work principle. That's saying, hey, when you make a pitch you need to write it out. And so that's a principle. And then a work practices. What are the tools and models and assets we use in technical teams?
You use Agile and scrums. In other places we use certain brainstorming techniques or certain ways to prioritize and set strategy and and I think we need to be really clear about what tools we use in our company. And then last but not least is the work platforms, what are the technology we're going to use to do work together. And a couple of just anecdotes I'll share.
Henry the First was from an interviewee who said, hey, I used to work at a company that was unbelievably gifted at being clear and consistent and how work got done. That, she said. The greatest part about working there is I didn't have to worry about how to create a deck or presentation. They gave you the format. I just had to worry about getting my best content in there so I could get folks to see the opportunity I was excited about.
And she's like the coolest part of that is I didn't have to put creative energy into building a deck. I could put all my creative energy into my craft. Into what I did really well and show how I could help the consumer. And that's just one small example, right, but a really powerful one. A second one is I was at a company in my career that we did an audit of all the technology and learning just in learning development, not all the technology we used.
And we had like 21 Lms's and like 90 different API's around that technology. And it was because every leader that came in had their favorite LMS, they had their favorite project management technology, they had their favorite way to communicate, whether it's SLAP or base camp, whatever it is, and the company just let them all come in. And so the reason I bring that up, Henry, is because God, are the days where we work in verticals, right? Everything is done on the horizontal.
Work is really connected. And if we're all working from different project management software, think about how hard it is to manage projects. Because every time I'm working with a different leader, I got to put it on a different platform, I got to do it in a different way. And you just end up eating all your productivity and creative energy on the coordination of work. Thanks for sharing these anecdotes. I think those are really, really great to hear, right.
So especially what you mentioned the lady right sharing about you know I just need to figure out the best content that I can do. So I think work principles, practices and also the platforms. So when I read that chapter, I think maybe companies should start putting those in their job description or career page so that people get more insights on what kind of way of working that they are getting into if they
join the company, right. So most of the job description is all about the roles, the skills, right. A little bit of values maybe, right. But some are aspirational as well. They don't tell you the exact way of working that the company is doing. So I think really thank you for sharing all of that. So as we reached the end of our conversation, Dr. Andre, I really love this conversation.
By the way, I have one last question that I would like to ask you, which I asked to all of my guests which I call the three technical leadership ISM. You can think of it just like advice that you want to give to the listeners here. So maybe if you can share your version of three technical leadership wisdom, it's a great question. So. You know, I'll start kind of small and then sort of get bigger as we go.
I think the first lesson I would share is that culture is simply the aggregation of all of our collective behaviors. If you want to change culture, change how you show up every day. It's really that simple. And if you get 5 buddies to do it? You can change a team. If you get 100 people to do it, you can change the department, you get 1000 people to do it, you can change a company. And so I think, just realize that culture isn't set on high, it's not written down and then
magically happens. It's just how we decide to show up every day. I think the second thing I'd say is that, you know, the second piece of feedback is life short. It's impossibly short and we're going to spend 13.5 years of our adult life at work. Do your best to get to a place where you can do your best work. It'll not only serve you becoming better at your craft and having a better career, but
you'll have a better life. And I would tell you kind of the third piece of advice is when you're struggling, don't work harder. Because the only place you're pulling from is you're pulling from your life outside of work. And the best thing the best leaders do is. They remember 1 fundamental truth is that my first responsibility is to make life outside of work magic. Make it great. Because if life outside of work is great, you know what happens to my job?
It becomes a smaller part of my identity and B there's a exponentially better chance that I'm happy there. And so those would be the three piece of advice I'd share tonight well. Really lovely. All of them. So I I do love the last one as well. We talked about it as well. So if you feel that you're struggling, right, don't work harder, maybe you do more self reflection, maybe you put more investment into other aspects of your life outside of work, right. So working harder is never the
solution, right. So I think thanks for sharing that. Really beautiful. So Dr. Andre, people love this conversation. They would want to continue this or maybe ask you questions. Is there a place where they can find you online? They sure can. They can finally get LinkedIn. So I'm I'm easy to spot there. My handle on the end of my LinkedIn is Doc Martin PDX. And the other way you can find
me is through websites. So my websites www.wrongfitrightfit.com and there you can find my e-mail, you can find my LinkedIn profile. You can even sign up for the newsletter goes out about once or twice a month and then soon we're going to have some text based courses up there that you can take to kind of learn about these concepts and. A little bit more deeply.
So come see me there. And I'm always looking for people to share their stories of right and wrong fit, to tell me about their experiences, because I just think the more we talk about them, the better they're going to get. Awesome. So I'll make sure to share that in the show notes. So Dr. Andre, really pleasure to talk to you today. So really great book. So I encourage people to also at least check out the excursions.
To me those are the gist of the books that people should do, at least to figure out what kind of right fit job that is out there for everyone. So thank you again Doctor Andre. Appreciate you, Henry, and appreciate. You creating a space for myself and others to come have this kind of conversation. It's super important right now. Thank you for listening to this. Episode and for staying right
until the end. If you highly enjoyed it, I would appreciate if you share it with your friends and colleagues who you think would also benefit from listening to this episode and if you're new to the podcast. Make sure to subscribe and leave me your valuable review and feedback. It helps me a lot in order to
grow this podcast better. You can also find the full show notes of this conversation on the episode page at Techly Juno dot deaf website, including the full transcript, interesting quotes, and links to the resources mentioned from the conversation. And lastly, make sure to subscribe to the show's mailing list on Techly, Juno dot deaf to get notified for any future episodes. Stay tuned for the next tech regional episode, and until then, goodbye.