Courage needs to be emphasized, even more in software development context that related with respect. We cannot expect. The developers will be courageous to tell the truth to have integrity, unless the organization the management, respect them as a professional. Hey everyone. My name is Henry Surah one. And you're listening to the tekhelet journal.
The show will be bringing you the greatest technical leaders practitioners and thought leaders in the industry to discuss about their Journey ideas and practices that we all can learn and apply to build a highly performing technical team and to make an impact in your personal work. So let's dive into our Journal. Hello, welcome to another episode of the technique journal with me, Ojos, Henry Surya
without one. Thanks for tuning in and spending your time here with me listening to this episode. And if you haven't joined any other technology, no social media channels. I would encourage you to take a second right now to click on the links in the show notes and you can follow this podcast, either on LinkedIn Twitter or Instagram with the handle tightly Journal. I would really love to see and
interact with all of you there. Every day, I post inspirational quote from the recent podcast episode on those channels. And I am so happy to have a growing community members who have kindly posted and shared about these podcasts to their Circles of friends and colleagues. It is my mission to grow this podcast and it's community in order to reach even more people within the industry and spread the amazing Knowledge from my wonderful guest, your
interactions. There, either through likes comments, shares, or Retreats, will definitely help me a lot in Order to achieve my mission and I want to thank you in advance. Our Guest for today's episode is Joshua butter ghee. Joshua is on a life mission to see more people working in a more Humane work environment where everyone can unleash their inner superpower and become the best version of themselves.
Joshua initially started his career as a software developer, but over time became more interested in the people aspect of software development which then brought him to what he's currently doing in the last. Last decade or so. I must say that I have been fortunate enough being able to work in multiple companies and places where software developers and techies are highly valued and respected.
However, I do understand that there are still a lot of places out there in which software developers are not equally treated with the same value and respect or worse. They are even miss treated badly in this episode. I had a chat with Joshua on how we can improve the industry and transform software development to be more. I mean more exciting and thriving industry in which people can truly Express their creativity and expertise to build something that they enjoy doing.
Joshua also shared his observation on how the current covid. Pandemic brought forward, an important message for all of us to bring an adult agility in the business and personal life, and do not miss Joshua's anecdote, on how he had to learn about self-organization in his career unexpectedly. I hope that you enjoy this episode. And I'm looking forward to hearing your comments and feedback on the social media. So, let's get started right after our sponsor message.
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No dot. F /. Jetbrains Dash Academy. You can go to tackle Journal, dot, f /. Jetbrains Dash Academy. Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the tekhelet journal podcast. So today I have my friend, Joshua portagee, who has been an experience. I job coach in the industry. He has been a scrum Master teaching, businesses and Enterprises on how to do Asia. He has Been teaching a jowl in the last few years on his
YouTube channel as well. So that people are more familiar with what his thought process about age are some of the misconceptions or maybe some of the topical themes. For example. I saw recently product owner versus product manager, that kind of stuff. So do check out Joshua's YouTube channel as well. If you are interested Joshua, welcome to the podcast and hope to have a good conversation with you today. Hey Henry, thanks for inviting me to your podcast initially.
I didn't Till I am the right person, the right speaker for your podcast because the title of your podcast is Take the Lead when you initially approached me. I've been so far away from being technical. I've been pushed more to the senior leadership level, but thanks for inviting me. I'm glad to be here. So hopefully, I can bring value to your audience in today's podcast. Thanks, just to give a response on that. Yeah. I have few people asking me as well.
Is it only for Tech lead roles in stuff? The engineer, my original intentions. Actually, I just shortened the name, but it's actually meant for technical leadership. So, everything around leading technical teams, or even like, leading transformational in terms of technology. That would be applicable as well. Which I'm sure you are more than qualified to be in this episode. Okay. Let's start by asking about yourself. Can you share with the audience about yourself?
What you have been doing? And then what is probably some of your career highlights and major turning point? Yeah, okay. I started my career as a software developer is a Java developer. I got my degree from a university in Indonesia. Three years. After I graduated I got this job offer at the time. I was very active on the Indonesian Java User Group. There is this guy who has been following me on Yahoo groups and he liked my responses on the mailing list and then out of the blue.
He just offered me in your pay with your like to work in Australia with Without any further thinking, I said, oh, yes, I would love to interestingly. The job was to be a Java developer in his company.
Before I worked in Australia. I work in two companies in Indonesia. And one thing that I noticed it seems like software developers really hate their job somehow and they have a self pity about being software developers, but it's really contradictory on the other hand, many software developers, like being software developers because of the salary, they get. But Under handy, hate their job.
One of the question that I kept asking to myself during that period can suffer development, be more Humane. So I Googled more Humane approach to software development. There wasn't really much article on agile and scrum back then. Interestingly. The first thing that popped up was can schreiber's book. The first one that I read was agile project management with scrum. In his book.
He challenged the status quo. Whoa, he doesn't have a fear to challenge the old management where you are thinking, so I thought, wow, it would be interesting if this is done, but then when I try to spread that when I was still in, Indonesia, people are still arguing that scrum or any other agile. Iterative approach would just create a lot of extra work because then what happens if you have to do rework in the future because there is a change in scope.
How about quality, Etc? I took the job. I flew to Australia. And what's so interesting is when I work there, that atmosphere the way of working is different, people are working differently and developers are really treated as human. One of the mind-blowing moment that I had was when I initially joined the company for one month. They didn't give me any toss in. Like already told me what to do until I took an initiative after one month. I'm not just getting a salary
for doing nothing. And then the manager Yeah, we self-organized here. I'm glad you found that out. I'm glad you learned your lesson. What you have to teach me about self-organization by really leaving me in the while. What? What kind of company is this? They do some of the scrum events and emphasized. A lot of technical Excellence, which back then I didn't do much for example, daily deployment, continuous integration test driven development.
What's so interesting is not really Mechanics, but the vibe like the atmosphere, the culture. I took a scrum Master training back then and then I discovered that turns out this company is more focused on living the scrum values rather than the mechanics. And all of that agile principles. They lift that rather than emphasizing the mechanics after I took the scrum Master training.
I created scrum, Indonesia mailing list, the few years later after I found that two mailing list their worst. This one guy who called me back then I was still in Australia. Hey, can you do like a one or two days scrum training for my team's? He trusted me more because I found the mailing list and then I was scrum Master Certified.
The money that I earn only paid for the plane tickets, but I was willing to do it because I want more and more people to know more about this really humane way of working. And then from there, the word discredit more people wants to get the training. Two years later.
Site, if I want to go back to Indonesia and also because my wife was pregnant, we got our first skit and she doesn't have a permit to stay in Australia. So I took a chance, leave my job started, my own consulting company to run scrum trainings. The company starting to get established more and more people know it. But back then, the emphasize were still more towards the team level and middle management level. And then in 2015, I wrote a book on scram, but it Is in Bahasa Indonesia?
Interestingly. A lot of people were surprised is actually someone now, who is speaking on behalf of us as software developers because the book really challenged the old management thinking and it was written more, towards managers in the preface. I wrote that. If you think, you can't change them to give this book to your managers and then interestingly a lot of software developers
literally did that. And a lot of them aboard five copies, 10 copies and then Each and one of them to their managers more and more managers actually studying to open up their mind. A lot of them is willing to try it out willing to learn more and then from there a lot of managers but mostly middle managers know more about scrum know that they also need to change knows that they have a really pivotal role in the organization to make the organization more agile. Since two years ago.
I'm starting to move further up in the organization rank. Starting to get invited by more senior leaders. I keep preaching in the market. If we just focus on the team level, the level of agility that we get is very suboptimal. If we want thru agility. This must be done whole Enterprise white, but only you at senior leaders level, who can make change this big, these middle managers. The probably can only make a very limited amount of change.
And probably the result is very suboptimal, a lot of see Your leaders are open-minded. So what do we need to know? What do we need to change? And just like a domino effect Word of Mouth starts spreading when senior leaders are happy with the talk to his friends. From another company about what happened in their company, but the change and they're happy with the results and it started to spread around. That's how I evolve. How I started my career and how
I got here today. Thanks for sharing that. I think it's very interesting Journey especially from Um, somebody who is technical going to the people and now is the
senior leadership management. I have few things that I noted down when you sharing the first thing that I would like to ask you keep saying about having more Humane approach for somebody velopment and also you explain about scrum values and principles, what are those values and principles that you think can make software developments live more Humane, I think because of the organization still have this project mindset in the project - Set. There is that iron project triangle?
Where the time scope and budget must be fixed? Because we have a fixed budget. It must be delivered. According to the fixed time, according to the deadlines and the scope is fixed. It's not negotiated, because the customer have already paid a fixed amount of budget. That's where the inhumanity starts because we need to deliver all of this scope and we can't add additional people because then that will blow up the budget and we have this
deadline to meet. Meet. I think there's also a lack of professionalism in software developers, because the developers has been controlled and intimidated. Hey, you need to work late because we have this deadline to meet. So oftentimes they left with no other options. Sometimes they would cut quality to make the work delivered faster because we've got this deadline to meet and we've got all of this scope to be delivered. According to the frigid Karen triangle.
There's no room for negotiation. I kept telling a lot of people about this one of the most important values. Instagram is respect. I think there's no point doing scrum, doing all of this mechanics, but there's no respect and respect goes, both ways product owner, and the management need to respect the software developers, respect them as a professional. So if developers said, no, it
cannot be done. If we do this, we have to cut corners and as a professional, we don't want to cut corners, but on the other hand, I think developers also need to respect the product owner because oftentimes X product. Winner may have a tough decision to make to survive at the, the company and developers need to respect the product owners. One example that I experienced in this company in Singapore.
The product owner came in and said, we've got this showstopper defects, if we don't fix it. Now, the company is literally losing, 100,000, Singapore, dollars every minute. The defect is not fixed. Now, that's a tough decision. And there's a lot of Out there that when we start Sprint, there's no changes some methodology called software developers, have that mindset in that kind of scenario. That's the moment where software developers actually respect this
product owners, tough decision. Yes, I know this is tough. But if we don't get to fix this, now, the company may be bankrupt or we can't wait next Sprint, because every minute right now, the company is losing 100,000, Singapore dollars because the companies working in a financial institution. That's how severe the Fact is, but then there is that two-way discussion. Okay, product. Whenever we know that this is a tough decision will fix the
defect. But of course not everything that we have planned in this print can be delivered because we are focusing on fixing this defect. So there's a negotiation. There's that trade-off a very disrespectful product. Winner is the one who said, no, you need to fix this defect now. And you also need to deliver everything that we have planned during Sprint planning.
That's a disrespectful for that unit because the development team will really Product owners having to make tough decision, but then the product only respond that way that's disrespectful. So respect, respecting, that we are adults. We are professionals. We have the best interest for the company. We're not Slackers. When we say it cannot be done is not because we are slacking, or we try to get away from it.
We are being professional. So respect, I think is the most important values to bring that Humanity back. Are there any other value? Is that you think are important in terms of scrum, write the values that you should understand? And probably inculcate as part of the culture. First in the organization. Maybe you can name some of the values if there are any. Yes, the second one. I think I also mentioned that this seems to be a lack of professionalism.
Let's say the developers are being cajoled and intimidated, they would. Yeah. Okay, I'll do it so that I will not lose my job. I think courage needs to be emphasized, even more in software development context that With respect, we can't expect. The developers will be courageous to tell the truth to have integrity. Unless the organization the management, respect them as a professional, the industry should encourage software developers to be courageous do as you say, have integrity, if
you think it's not right? If you think the quality is horrible, if you think there is a technical debt in the product, if you think releasing will, Arm our customers tell us right in front of our face. Don't cover it up. Don't sugarcoat it. You will not lose your job for telling the truth. You mentioned that you have in the last few years and move on into influencing the senior leadership and management in a company.
And you mention as well that if we want to adopt a gel it cannot be at the team of middle managers level, because that right is up optimal. So when you coach D, senior leadership, the see executives Lee, what are some important things that you want to drive them to change within the company? What may be some of the practices or maybe some of the workflows or maybe even some of the ways of working and culture? Maybe you can share from your
experience? What are some of the important things that senior leadership would need to change first? A lot of people keep saying agile is about mindset and I oftentimes found that where the problem starts because mindset is really abstract. You can't go to senior. Judgment, you need to change your minds about what's mindset. So I think it should be that way around mindset is really abstract. It's not really tangible.
You need to give a clear guideline and I think the message should be changing Behavior because that's more tangible because Behavior can be seen behaviors. Can be observed. One of the behavior that needs to be changed, is shift the focus from output oriented towards outcome oriented because the Traditional perception is if the developers deliver all of these features that we have planned and we are successful, but it's really difficult in the
context of innovation. Innovative work, creative work. For example, musicians. They work in a creative space in the creative industry. It musicians make as many music as possible. Does it guarantee that those musics, those songs? They make will be successful. Not really right. They can create many. A songs but then it might not be enjoyable. It might not be valuable. But if the music is great, A lot of people like it. Even though they may only make
less amount of songs. They may generate a lot of Revenue because more and more people may buy made download that song that music. So musicians also focus on outcome rather than output change their perspective towards focusing on outcome rather than output. That's the first thing that they need to change. So Rather than having this reject mindset rather than being tossed driven focus on the outcome, that can be delivered by the software development team from there.
Everything else should follow. Because then you will start making changes into your organization to be able to optimize your outcome. You may change your policy. You may start empowering the team. Give them the best tools. They can have to deliver optimal outcome. The management may send them.
To technical trainings to be able to create more automations so that the delivery will be faster and outcome will be achieved, faster start from there first and then everything else will follow because it starts from how we perceive things. So, can you maybe give an example in terms of in a company? What are some of the good examples of outcome that they should drive towards? There are many outcomes and it's really different depending on their organization.
In a profit based organization. A good outcome would be at the end of the day. They make good profit. I usually have a discussion with this inside the organization. There's a lot of outcome metrics that we can create a funnel for it, from the leading indicators until the lagging indicators. So profit would be considered this lagging indicators. That would be at the bottom funnel but there are other leading indicators that can help us towards achieving that
profit. For example, at the top, we probably have Were of downloads, number of people visit our website. And then after that are in the bottom funnel, a lot of hate customers. A lot of good reviews. People are referring our products. They say positive things about our product. There's repeat order. Every time we release a new product, people would buy the subsequent products. We deliver to the market. There is that fanaticism. That's the good outcome.
Those are leading indicators, but at the end of the day, if you have all of those good outcomes, but you're not making, Good profits. If you're not making good revenues, then, it's not really good. I see this a lot, especially in some e-commerce companies. They've got a really good traffic. There's a lot of people making transaction on their e-commerce website, they keep returning but the e-commerce website, are not making good profit because they also burn a lot of money on
promotions. So that's also not good right? At the end of the day we have to make good profits. Yes. Our other leading indicators are good. People are visiting. Our website. Let's see, our gmv are good. People are referring our products that repeat orders, people say positive thing about us, but at the same time, we also spend a lot of money. There's a lot of budget used for promotion and marketing and we hardly make profit, like, for the past decade, for example, so that's also not good.
It's not sustainable business. Those leading indicators Matrix needs to be good. That tells you that you delivered good outcome, but you still To make a good profit. This is in the context of profit based organization, but then it becomes tricky, if you go to nonprofit organization, or government, for example, because they don't exist to make good profit. They're not there to make high-revenue ineffective. Government have that kind of mindset. It can be quite dangerous.
Value is still relevant for profit. Based organization values about profit and revenue, but for government value might be at the things, like, trust from the citizens. And I have work with the local police department here. They say it value for us in the context of police department. If people feel secure, if people have high trust with the police, people say good things about the
police. So that value is not necessarily a profit, but that's what they want to achieve in their context because there are police department. That's a good outcome for them. As I think those that you mentioned are some of the good examples. I like the way you explained about the funneling concept. Where you The leading and lagging indicators. I think definitely, if you can build something like that in organization, you can see at different levels.
I'm kind of outcome that you are achieving in terms of doing this. Asia coaching. I think people will associate that with also agile transformation in a company and I'm sure there are many challenges when you want to try to do this transformation because it seems like pretty big. You probably need to change the culture that workflow the behaviors and even the way you measure out. Outcomes which probably might be different from the way they used
to do it in the past. What are some of the maybe? Let's say tactics that you use to actually overcome this barriers of people not willingly adopting all these new changes or practices from the a gel point of view. It's really interesting when I look around this is quite de la. Mattock. Do we want the senior leaders to get on board really quickly, but then it creates a non-sustainable result. Or we want to do it the right
way. You may not get that trust immediately, but it's more sustainable his. What? I mean. The first model is focusing on, just really quick. We want to get their support immediately. This approach is often used by big management. Consultants. You promised unpredictability you promised the senior leaders. We're going to do Agile transformation in your company. It's going to take six months. And here's the plan. Here's the Gantt chart here to
the time. I'm line on how you will reach agile transformation in another six months. And this is how much it costs. So when it will be finished, how much? It's cause it's defined senior leaders like that. They like predictability. You can get them on board immediately and this is often times and approach that's used by many big management Consultants. I personally think that's not
really a professional. Because oftentimes what happens on the field is because the transformation has In given a fixed timeline. People are being rushed. Okay, we've got this deadline in six months. The whole company must be agile. He's what you need to do. People are being rushed and then it costs resistance and resistance, actually slow down the whole change. Let's say the change doesn't really happen. The senior leaders actually blame the people.
Hey, you not following us being told, right? So, we hired this expensive, Consultants. How come change is not happening? You're not following a quarter. Being to this policy according to this plan, according to this things that we want you to do to change. So the blame goes back to the people and the senior leaders. You think that people are just stubborn because they don't want to change but that's really natural. Imagine.
If you hire a personal trainers, you want to lose some weight and if they Crush you, your body probably cannot really adapt. Their is that resistance, the needs to be Evolution. A good personal trainer will work according to your Our current situation, The evolutionary approach is more sustainable and you probably get people more engage because you are attending their concerns and talking about change. There is fear what's going to happen.
I have to leave my comfort zone, what's going to happen to my job and you have to attend to people's concern when doing this change inside the organization, if you really want a sustainable change, if you want agility to be more sustainable, really go by their side. I'd really adapt to how they actually work really adapt to the habit and make a really incremental changes rather than a big bang project time based approach. It's more sustainable.
The second approach The evolutionary approach is much harder to get the management to get on board. I often tell these two leaders scrum is actually not really limited to just software development because when we read scrum guide, the word software is not mentioned. Even once in fact, scrum use a more generic term that is product so we can actually use scrum to help the organization change in a more evolutionary way. So, let's make small changes, small, incremental changes.
Let's start with one month. Period, what is the most critical? And less disruptive way to change the organization? It's less disruptive, but the benefit will be visible immediately. And then at the end of the one-month, let's review. It. I often bring Matrix for this because if you make small incremental changes without Matrix, then you don't really know whether things have changed to your listener. I would suggest search evidence-based management. You can go to scrum dot org
website scrum dot org slash ebm. So I usually coupled this with IBM metrics, during the Sprint review, at the end of the month. Let's look whether the ebm metrics have changed is our time to Market improving is our Lead time improving is our cycle time. Improving houses are technical. Depth. For example, how is a team level of motivation? Are we delivering value much
better than before. How is our production level incidence is the developer still being interrupted in the middle of the spring because of production incidents. How is our defect Trends? Are we releasing much more frequent now than before. How is our mean time to repair? All of these metrics are inspected being reviewed at the end of Every Sprint. And then after that, we do retrospective, we find a tangible way to improve the way. We bring change into the organization for the next month
in this month. Did we cause any resistance is people embracing it and if the organization discovered there was resistance along the way, let's not blame people. Let's use that as a learning opportunity. Why was there resistance? And how can we create less resistance in the following one month, Sprint and continue doing that. When change is And it's relatively then change becomes a habit. Now. The organization is actually already living the agile principle.
That change is now the new Norm because now every month, we are changing something inside our organization and people might not feel much more resistance than I had this experience and we will post the case study soon. It's still being reviewed by scrum dot orc and my client.
So interestingly, one of the thing that the observe in this client now everyone in Including the senior leaders are always looking forward to attend the Sprint review because they see this as an opportunity for learning their perspective changed because of that habit, because change is being done in a more natural way rather than being pushed from the top to answer your questions. We need to balance it. We make a small incremental changes.
And when we communicate to management, I do my best to prevent using the word transformation so that I'm not. Indicating to the senior leaders, there is an end to this because that's a false thinking, you can always be more agile. You can always be better than yesterday. We may not be able to promise predictability. But on the other side of the coin we can tell them. We are actually limiting the wrist from the change. So you don't have to spend big budget to create change.
Once you see benefits from this small change, you can invest more money and if you want to stop, you can stop at any time. So why don't we use a different approach? Use of more incremental evolutionary approach to change to that we manage risk in losing millions of dollars for this and then also use metrics because management? Really like numbers, as I mentioned you Z BM Matrix evidence-based management metrics.
And if your Sprint is a one-month Sprint for making these changes shootout, during Sprint review, they like that because now they can see evidence immediately. The result of this. Will change. So they don't have to wait. Six months later to see real tangible change inside the organization. Thanks for sharing all these. I think it all makes sense. I just want to make a few comments about the
predictability approach. I find it a little bit ironic in a sense that you want to do this agility. But doing in a project management way, bikes are six months, fixed budget fixed scope and you will be transformed. I think those kind of approach tends to focus a lot more on,
just the practices. For example, Maybe, Be by introducing daily stand-up, or Sprint review, retrospective and all that, but actually the lack of the essence, and yes, of, what do you call the habits, the Norms, the culture, even sometimes, and maybe that is one of the probably major causes y. A gel transformation is deem not working in many places and that's why they are little bit of bad rap about a gel lately.
Yes, you're right. And I think, the people aspect is often neglected, agile transformation is really Interesting, it's different to other kinds of transformation because we're changing habits. This is different. Let's say to digital transformation. For example, probably, we just digitalize all of our processes, the way we work and we can train people to be more digital literate, but when it comes to Agile transformation, we're not just telling them to use process or mechanics.
There is habit. That is Change. Also, the way they communicate, the way they behave, the way they perceive things. It's quite different and they may miss their comfort zone. They may have fear, and we need to attend to that. So maybe just a personal question as well. What do you see the current Trend these days about Asia? Adoption? Even major has been around for more than 10 years. I think. How do you see in the industry in terms of agility companies really have adopted agility or I
Still far off behind? Yes. I had thought about this and we really living in a very interesting time today because of the pandemic in the past six months. I noticed organizations. Now, start to realize that the old approach will no longer be relevant after covid, post covid, during this pandemic era. There's so many uncertainty. It's so blurry. In fact, we may not even know what's going to happen or school with or when that's going to happen.
In is things going back to normal, what industry will still exist, which industry will be bankrupt. I think when I watch the new serveral, big companies has already gone bankrupt during the pandemic. Some companies becomes a winner. They reap benefits from this but some industry May no longer exist, post covid. What I notice is companies realized the need to change. They need to be more Nimble, more adaptable. What I often hear on the field? The word learning.
Relations. Now realize they need to be a learning organization. They need to learn fast. It's beyond just delivering fast. I think the message that often heard by people, when they hear agile is fast delivery during this pandemic, the word learning fast becomes more prominent when you learn fast, that means you can adapt to any unpredictability that hits you.
I personally think this is just my hunch, but I think it will be the norm and maybe people don't really care so much about the word agile or scrum because it will be the norm because if it's the norm, what's the point of using that word people start to realize the old way may no longer be relevant, especially posts covid. People now are not fighting it anymore. It's so interesting. A virus changed, the way people behave, but now, because of
covid, we need to change. We need to be adaptable. We need to be fast learner. To be able to adapt to any situation that may hit us. And that's what agile is actually all about. I think the word agile scrum may not be really that overused because people are already working that way because of the unpredictability that's introduced by covid-19 really good observation there. And I fully agree with you the situation, this pandemic
actually forces many businesses. Even people individuals to really think about their previous ways of working probably try to come Come up with new ways of working that probably is going to be better more adaptable to situations more. Well, to unpredictability. I myself in the last six months or so as well, have transformed in a way did a lot of new things like because we simply do not know yet. We're still not out of the woods of this pandemic. So we are still embracing this
unpredictability in a way. So thanks for that. I think it's a very apt observation. Before we end the episode. Normally I would ask each of my guests to share their tree technical leadership. Wisdom, so Joshua, would you be able to share? What are your technical leadership, wisdom? All right, the first one, our perception about people. People naturally want to change and they adapt to the system that is surrounding them. So don't try to change.
People change the system where they are working. The second thing. I see a lot of leaders still need Improvement in this space. I mentioned in today's episode about having courage and thats related with integrity. The second wisdom is, if people hate you for doing the right thing, at least you've done the right thing. So, focus on that have integrity. What is Right? Must always be third thing.
I'm really passionate about talking about professionalism, professionalism in soccer development, is important, because if we see now around us software, it's an integral part of humans life now, so don't let people die because the low quality of your software. There's so many examples how people literally die Because of low quality software, so be professional pretty good wisdom. I would say, I like the second one. So, thanks Joshua for coming to
this show. Sharing your experience, your knowledge or wisdom, your observation about agility. And where can people find you online. I am on Lincoln just search J part 2 G because my short URL is ohj party. Either on LinkedIn, Twitter and on YouTube. So you can either find me on LinkedIn or subscribe to my Each Channel if you like that and you can also follow me on Twitter. /, J party. Thanks again, Joshua and I hope to see you again in the next episode in the future. Yeah, cool.
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