Episode 266: Interview with Grace Stevens on Setting Healthy Boundaries

They are going to discuss the importance of setting your personal boundaries as a teacher , starting from unexpected requests to coaching an after-school academic team , to those parents who pop in for a surprise conference on your lunch break .

You are going to hear Grace's best of the best advice for setting those boundaries and following through with the promises that you've made for yourself . All right , let's go ahead and dive in to today's episode . Hi there , Caitlin here . Our mission at EB academics is simple .

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We're thrilled , great , yeah . Well , for our listeners who don't know you , I would love if you could just give them some background on your story , who you are and what you do .

So , yes , I did teach before COVID , during COVID , after COVID because I know there's nothing worse than listening to somebody who , like you know , has not been in the classroom for decades . But I was a second career teacher and so pretty much let me sum it up for you you know how those tests you're giving class .

You got the summative , you got the formative , you've got all of that . But you got that like test for mastery , like you got to pass it before you can get on in life . Well , I'm going to say that balance and boundaries is one of those tests Like life will keep giving you that test until you pass it .

And so I was in the corporate world and I was crushing it . I mean , honestly , I was doing fantastic . I met all the goals I thought I wanted to make for myself by the time I was 30, . I had the house and the cars and the kids and all the things , and it was . I was miserable , oh my God . I was so miserable .

I was burnt out , worn out , overextended , just exhausted , anxious , didn't feel like I even participated in my life . I don't know if anyone can even relate to that Like you're just going through the motions and you're in survival mode and you're like what I worked all this hard , like it has to be more than this .

So , anyway , I made this huge decision to quit my corporate career , go back to school at 37 , become a public school teacher , and at that time I said I will give public service 20 years .

That was my commitment to myself and at first it was magical , like magical , like the kids and me , and like the classroom and all the things I wanted to do , and just so different than the corporate world .

And I really , you know , loved the extra time that I had with my own two young children and everything was going swimmingly along , you know , until it wasn't pretty soon not pretty soon , but a few years and I realized I'd started to create the same circumstances for myself again overwhelmed , overextended , lack of boundaries , exhausted , resentful , like all the thick

crying in my car , and I was like , come on , if I wanted this life , I would have stayed making like the mad money right . I'm not doing it for peanuts , and I knew that I didn't have another career changing me , like I needed to change me . So there are definitely some things about teaching that make it easy for people to burn out .

It is an occupational habit but at the same time , like , come on , now I needed to fix this problem for myself and so I did , and I make that sound like that was a really easy thing to do . It was not . It was a 20 year journey .

I'm pretty nerdy , neuro nerdy , like I'm a neuro linguistic programming practitioner , like I studied all the things positive psychology , positive psychology , cognitive behavioral therapy , all the things . I did it all to fix myself . But what happened was other teachers started to notice , especially when I taught in a small school .

We essentially had the same building blocks , we had the same students , we had the same administrator , the same resources , the same career , and so I was like I'm going to be a regular . You know why was my experience so different from theirs ? Right ? And people really started asking me about that a lot .

And , like I said , the tools and the things that I studied and learned , I did to fix myself . But then I felt okay , I'm going to share them now . So I published some books and one of them struck a chord with a lot of people , which was positive mindset habits for teachers .

I'm thrilled to say that some teacher training schools make their teachers in training read that .

But it like the whole kind of it becoming my identity really crept up on me and it was kind of without me noticing , and it was almost friends saying hi , megan , we haven't seen you for three months before I even noticed it , you know . So I think what you have put together is just super impactful for teachers . So thank you for sharing that .

So you know , we talk about boundaries and that's what I wanted to kind of discuss with you and I feel like it gets talked about a lot in society today . Do you yourself have kind of a way of defining boundaries in the context of education , and why are they so important for teachers especially ?

You feel you're called to it , you want to help , you really are in it for the purpose and for the impact and for the students .

So what happens is and I'm going to generalize , but I have worked with hundreds and hundreds of teachers as a general role , with people pleasers , with conflict avoidant , and we kind of have that optimism like I'll be okay , I'll be okay , right .

So the first thing is that the types of people that teaching attracts . The second thing is kind of the culture that we've created , which is terribly unhealthy , which is like this teacher-matter , complex , right , like we judge the teacher who's like , oh , who does it all .

We kind of idolize that person , right , and let's be honest , if there's a teacher who leaves school and , exactly at their contract , out on a regular basis , we're super judging on that person . Yeah , we don't know what their life looks like . Maybe they have children , maybe they have aging parents . Maybe , they have a second job , God .

I had a side hustle for 13 years when I was a teacher Right .

But the rest of them , who are managing two , set boundaries and stick to them and put their mental , emotional , physical health first so that they can actually show up for their students Right , we should be looking at them and saying , my goodness , what can I learn from them ?

So that's why I think it's especially important in teaching and because of what we do . You know I have a four part framework that I teach teachers , but my biggest part is the E . It's called the echo framework . Like , what you put out comes back to you . You know how teachers are acronyms .

But the E part is your energy teaches more than your lesson plans , right , yeah . And so if you show up exhausted , overwhelmed , frustrated , burn out , like your kids know that it's makes for a miserable day in the classroom and it just starts this whole vicious circle , right Is that you're not your best self . The students then are kind of anxious .

They don't know what version of you they're getting today . So then you've got this whole co-regulation going on , and so they're acting out to test the waters . You're overreacting , taking things personally , you know , and so then that isn't going well before you know , everybody's miserable .

So , protecting your energy and I'm not saying not being teacher tired , hey , we all like , we all get teacher tired , but the energy , like that , you show up and you just don't want to be there . I'm going to say it as it is . There are days and we want others . It's okay to be there , absolutely , but don't stay there , don't live there , right ?

Don't , don't , don't get entrenched there .

A lot of people think they're all non-negotiables , but they're really about your preferences , needs and wants to right , and we deserve to have them .

You know , we all want to be of those , okay , and and it just is really damaging for students to be around and , like I said , it's just this vicious circle of like kind of misery , and you didn't need to study brain science to do that . You remember being a kid , right ?

Like , yeah , actually , like there were teachers who I loved and I couldn't tell you what was on their walls If they were Pinterest , what you know what I mean . And then there was a teacher who was just you didn't want to be in that room because you knew they didn't want it , right ?

It's when you're feeling that that you don't want to be there . Period when , at one point , teaching was the thing that you absolutely loved and that's probably what you got you to that point . You know , because you didn't set the boundaries .

You know , for me it was always the , the , the warning signs were I'll be honest , and it's really painful to say it , but I think a lot of parents carry this guilt is that I remember when I started teaching my son and I joked we started first grade on the same day .

We went and got on in backpacks and on your sneakers and you know , by the time I got home , I know you , you know your middle schoolers jar , remember learning to read at like sounding like all of that I couldn't bear . Do not give me one more stupid phonics Like worksheet to look at .

And so when I got home , like he wanted to help with homework or he wanted to be excited to read to me and like I just didn't even have it in me and I felt so guilty . Like you know , other people's children are getting the best of me and my own children are not and that is a horrible .

That's when , you know , when you start having those feelings of guilt and you know something isn't quite right , but you can't quite name it , but you're overwhelmed and it's such a spiral isn't it . It's a spiral and you know you're kind of getting irritable , like all the things . It isn't like you know one .

It's not like flipping a switch you don't wake up you know one day , burnt out , like it's a slippery slope .

Sometimes I have observed others wait till they can't take it anymore and then when they go to set a boundary , they are really aggressive about sure , insecure about their ability to do it . It doesn't come out in a compassionate or confident way

. We say things that are true but not appreciated , such as you know well , that's not in my contract .

So you know it's going to be hard just to work your contract hours . I understand that there's somewhere between contract hours and 15 extra hours and I'm not going to be a media mate , so so you know it . But it goes beyond just saying no to .

You know there's extra things , which I do have a script for that and I'm happy to share that in a minute because I have a secret source that that tends to help people with that . But we got a set boundaries and all kinds of ways that maybe we don't notice . Are we hanging around the really , really toxic people on campus ?

Like everybody has a teacher bestie . You go to their room , you complain . You know they're upset about something . You know we write at dawn right , okay , but when there's people who you know just constantly drag you down , you know where they congregate and even when you're trying to come up with a solution .

I mean , there are so many issues in education , but there's a difference between recognizing that , validating that , and then given all that , what can I do ? Like being proactive and optimistic , and then , just you know , really shutting down any positive idea that anybody has right . So those people we got upset boundaries with .

Those people we got a set boundaries with overbearing , bossy kind of you know parents who want to . So there's a lot of boundaries to be set . So recognize that it's not just on your time . Recognize that it's a skill that can be learned . It doesn't come naturally . None of us learned it . We were taught to people , please .

Yes , I'm going to say many , many teachers are female . Yeah , we were taught to . You know a different way . Yes , do all the things to accommodate , to smooth out the ruffles , to keep everything harmonious Right . The idea of disrupting that does not come naturally , so it's a skill you can learn . Start with baby steps .

You know , don't set the biggest boundary you're scared of setting in your life . Just set some little tiny ones . Feel better about that . Recognize that when you get pushed back , the people who really profited the most from your lack of boundaries are the people who are going to be most upset that you start . Yeah right , right .

So recognize that if you're getting pushed back , that's because you know that that that's no longer convenient for the Absolutely . So let me give you a script .

One of the things , like I said , that I see people struggle with is you know , let's put it this way , I'm trying to be realistic with people and I'll say you know , especially you know in a lot of school districts , in public school , you have your teacher or contract and you have your hours , and then there's a certain number of hours that you need to sign

up for adjunct duties , right ? So maybe it's 15 hours or 20 hours a year , and there's that mad dash like , yeah , I want to sign up for this one , I want to sign up for that one right so instead of looking for the hours , the least number of hours . How can I hit exactly 15 without going out , right ?

Look at it like oh my God , I'm like an ice picker right , like I'd rather stick on pick ice , am I ? I've been sitting there for five minutes , but if it's something even tutoring with kids or I used to go to a digital style lab every year .

It took hours of my time , my energy , hire astronomers , pick up the equipment , write the lesson plans for a week while all the kids came to who cared . It filled me up my own children , mom . Is it style lab week ? Are we going Like it was wonderful ? So look at things . You know you're not going to say no to everything .

You're going to say yes to the things that fill you up . But recognize step one every no you give . Every time you say no , you're saying yes to something else in your life .

And conversely , every time you say yes to something , you're saying no to something else . So so first recognize that , but with the boundary piece . I always coach teachers , because that's what they first thing copies like they're asking me to do a committee , they're asking me to take up another thing , and I don't want to do it , okay .

So here's kind of the kind of secret source there . One , the only thing you have to remember is to buy yourself some time . So don't say yes or no in the minute , just buy yourself some time , cause we know how it happens . Okay , we walk into the door , we are balancing our copies , our keys , our water bottle , our coffee .

We got one eye at the door because the kids , like , don't leave kids in a line all night , right , like that's when all the drama happens , right , unscheduled time , unscheduled time , right , and so then the admin comes over like they got not caring the world , like they're unaware of the fact you just came off your duty and you really just wanted to pee right .

And then it will start with a compliment oh , miss S , there's something that's come up . Be so great for you Like be aware of the compliments , okay .

And then they're going to ask you and you're going to be flustered and unless you know how to set a boundary , you're just going to say yes and be mad about it , like so , step one , just buy yourself some time , just have a standard policy . Hey , you know what ? I need to check my schedule and get back to you .

I need to check my priorities and get back to you . Hey thanks for thinking of me . Let me take a look , let me get back to you , right ? So buy some time . Just buy some time . That's all you have to remember , because then you can go look at the script , then number two , answer and writing right . Give yourself a chance to get your thoughts together .

Also , have a paper trail . I've had some poor experiences with that . It's like , no , you said you'd do that . I actually said no twice .

Okay , you're not gonna say it's not on my contract or I need to get my kid to soccer , or I hate that person you asked me to be in a committee with . You're gonna give a student-focused reason . Oh , love that .

Yes , give a reason that is about the students , because there is no way an administrator is gonna say , oh well , there isn't , but I mean , if they do , then you're gonna have to take that somewhere else . That they're like oh no , don't put the students first , so you can't think of a student-focused reason .

And when you do , here's the thing , just throw in all the buzzwords right . So like , for example , I never use teacher speak jargon , really , unless I am declining . And then I'll say , as you may be aware , I'm doing this grade assignment , or this is the third grade assignment in as many years . Yeah , Through story right For many people , I'm sure .

Split plus no , then a straight , then a split again , Then a grade you never taught before so state , a fact that is true . And as you may be aware , like you're reminding them , I have I'm new to this grade assignment I have many students who are below benchmark , throwing some words . I feel any extra time I have I need to commit to remediating student .

All the things right . Give a student-focused reason . You can find a student-focused reason and then thank the person . Hey , wishing you good luck and that's it . So that's the formula . Buy yourself some time . Return answer in writing because you've time to formulate your thoughts .

When it was like the fifth year in a row that somebody asked me to head student study teams after school , you know like then I was like you know what I've really enjoyed this . And I did enjoy it Because you're involved with students and , to be honest , my own child was on a 504 plan most of her school career .

So like I really felt like I needed to , you know , pay back in that area and be sure to take it and understand a parent's point of view , but at the same time , you know , if that email did it , that request did end up with , like you know , maybe it's time for somebody else to learn these skills . Let's pass that opportunity onto somebody else .

Like you can say it very nicely , but part of my fear was I worked at a very small school . It's like , dude , if I'm out of here , there's nobody knows how to do this . Right , right , yeah , and so that's a real concern . So , anyway , hopefully you know that's helpful . That's incredible Student focused reason . That's the secret resource .

I would . It really depends on the like severity of it . Right , like I always move forward , I find that I tend to have really good interpersonal skills . Like you know , and Anderson is helping me to say that I'm like usually diminished .

But I always like to assume the best intentions of people and that really helps . Like so sometimes , like somebody doesn't realize , and so if it's just a small thing , you know , I'll just say to somebody hey , you might not be aware , but you know , my policy is this keep it neutral . You know my policy , these are my terms and conditions .

You know when that parent shows up at your door at 10 minutes before the bell goes and wants to meet with you and you have to tell them hey , you know what , for the best of you and your student , everything else , like you know my policy is you need an appointment , yeah , absolutely Right .

And when they're like no , but you're being flexible and this and that , and then I'll just say , gosh , you know what . You might not be aware of that . Like you know , once the day gets kept , this is my only opportunity to take care of emails that other parents have sent me or this or I have a meeting . As soon as this happens .

You know I taught littles first , second , third and fourth for most of my career and so you know what happens is you have to do the handoff at the end of the day and that parent at the gate wants to have the conference . You know , the gate conference . No , oh my God .

Firstly , confidentiality Right , you can smack about other parents and other people's kids right there . Another staff member . Secondly , whose contract , like I , was always tutoring or I had a meeting or something else .

So just reset that boundary , assume the best intentions and say you know , you're probably not aware or maybe you've forgotten , like some , managed expectations up front , right as far as what the boundaries are . Now , if it's an admin and it's a serious thing , then hopefully I don't know if you're a public school teacher .

I just I was at the California Teacher Association's new teacher weekend yeah , this weekend , and you know the teacher association was all about like , call your union man , have a witness and all the things right and so . But not everybody has those protections , but know that they're available to help you .

In this particular instance where I said this administrator kept putting me forward for something I'd already told him twice about . I remember I was again , literally had all the stuff in my hands and he came up to me and he was a very I'm a very small woman .

You can't tell on Zoom , I am you know , fun-sized I am like , literally , the third graders were tall , and me , okay , and very tall man , very big man , very loud voice , and he literally backed me up against a wall , oh my goodness . And said I have told the board you are going to do this and you're going to do this .

And so I looked around and I saw that there was a staff member walking by and I just called over and I just said excuse me . And I said , hey , come over here , stand here . I said I can't put this point . I need to witness because you're not hearing what I'm saying . Yeah , and I have said no to you three times .

I'm going to say no again and I'm going to put it in writing . And you know what he said to me . Oh my God , what a terrible thing I want to know . But he said to me that's fine , next year you can teach kindergarten .

Oh my goodness gracious , like that's supposed to be a veil threat to which I just rose the caition and was like , oh my God , that would be awesome . I would love to do that , which is true . Like you know , I taught different grades . People would say what's your favorite grade to teach ?

You know , whatever grade I taught that year , sure , when I was in first , like oh my God , this is the best . And then he said to something else and you're like , oh no . And then you're like , oh my God , this is the best grade , this is awesome , exactly so , really . So get a witness .

If , even if you don't have a union , when there are meetings with parents that you feel are going to be confrontational , whatever , just get a witness and set a boundary . You , like I said , you teach your bestie .

You know , when they know that parents come in at three and they're like , okay , I'm calling you at three , 20 and reminding you about the meeting right , We'll quit right and they'll bail you out . So just get some help . But , you know , assume the best intention .

Sometimes , you know , some boundaries are just people are , you know , really unpleasant and you're like , that's not like them . You know , even just to say something like what are you okay ?

But I would say , yeah , try and assume best and best intentions , try and really diffuse it by , you know , saying are you okay if it's just someone that you know , but if it is apparent , just remind them .

But you know the caveat there is you needed to have a boundary plan , right , and you need to have communicated that and you need to be consistent with it .

So when the one parent shows up and you talk to them at the gate the next day , when a parent comes and wants the gate conference , you can't say that my policy and they'll be like , yeah , but yesterday you spoke to , right , like , then it's , then you're looking , you look and you played favorites and all the things .

So you've got to be consistent and you need to have done the work upfront to set the boundaries . So I helped teachers make a whole boundary plan , ideally before school starts , and you can change your terms and conditions . People do it all the time , right , look how many times your iOS updates , yeah , so , like , you don't have to wait till next year .

Just great boundaries , don't make that mistake . Right , like , you can just have a new policy or you know you can update your terms and conditions . Don't think , because I got into some bad habits already , then you can . It's a skill you can learn . You can stop having some bad habits , but don't Like I said , the fact that it's uncomfortable .

Do I want five minutes of discomfort now or do I want to be mad the whole rest of ?

Well , there were quite a few times I would just have to ask , you know , one of my teacher friends , like , just come in the meeting and hold the clipboard , don't ask me why , something about the clipboard , like . And I would just say , hey , you know what , I want to make sure I don't miss anything . And so my colleague here is going to take notes .

And you will be , you know , surprised how people's behavior changes when somebody is sitting there with a clipboard . I mean , they might be doodling , you know it's a sign of authority to clipboard . They got my back . They got my back . And it also suddenly tells that person I got your number , you are not going to bully me .

Because I'm like , oh my God , your neck is getting so red right , so like it just doesn't come naturally to us but it gets easier . It gets so much easier . And once you realize that actually setting boundaries is a very kind thing to do , especially , you know , in relationships with coworkers in your own life , you shouldn't , you know .

He said when you asked me at the beginning what's my definition of boundaries is not just here's the line you're not going to cross . It's always about my behavior . It's never about somebody else's behavior . It's like what am I willing to tolerate , what am I willing to do ?

You know I can't change somebody's behavior , but I can choose to say listen , this conversation is no longer productive and I'm stepping away until everybody's calm down . Right , it's about my behavior , it's I language .

But at the same time , realizing that not having your needs and preferences , not sharing them in a relationship like people shouldn't have to guess I'm okay , you know , whatever you want to do , boundary issues and it's like no , I have a preference , maybe I don't want to rock the boat , but then I'm going to be low key , resentful that you chose right something

else . That's not , that's like so not a good way to function in any kind of relationship . And yet , and so many of us do it because we're like , oh , I don't want to be perceived as you know being- high maintenance Right Well behind . We take up space and have a preference , right , right , so yeah , so that's yeah what .

awesome . Well , you've touched on a few things that you provide for teachers . Are there other resources , support systems that you would recommend for teachers who are really trying to get a hold on this boundary idea ?

I have a course , named that , which helps teachers go through separating school from home , you know , ditching the teacher girl , all those things , and a huge part of it is boundaries . I think it's like you know you can just name something before around boundaries , like nobody bought it , like they didn't .

I think people don't understand that a lot of issues and problems that they are experiencing and burn out their experience is due to a lack of boundaries , that it's a boundary problem . So one thing that I created because I couldn't find any resources for it . So I have a quiz that people can get . It's like a five minute quiz .

It is old school paper and pencil , like you print it out and you add up your school , kind of like . Oh , not to remember cosmopolitan right .

And then it will kind of give you your boundary school , like yeah , you're crushing it or like , yeah , here are some things you might want to consider . So if people want to look at that , and then you need to find it's grace Stevenscom and it's Stevens with a V , so Grace Stevenscom . Forward slash quiz .

So if this is striking a chord for anybody , when you're hearing like , yeah , I need to set boundaries at school , but like , or maybe I'm not good at it , kind of goes together Sometimes we're not good at boundaries and our relationships to say she's Terry with an ISO T , terry Cole , she's . She's really who .

When people say Mary need help with this , and like , okay , yeah , she's a licensed therapist . I'm not therapist and I don't play one on the internet either . Like you know I have experience , I have a lot of practical wisdom .

Okay , you know , I learned the hard way and then I did do a lot of you know basic nerdy , yeah , research , science , but yeah , I'm not . I would never tell people . Yeah , oh no , you know the dangerous game to get into .

Obviously , if you're listening to this podcast , you like podcasts . You can find me there . All the things balance , boundaries , some fantastic guests to a different perspectives . And then Grace Stevenscom . You know it's my website . You can find all the stuff there . I have courses , I have books , I have other stuff . I mean , you can Google me on Amazon .

My books are there . But I actually have a book on Boundaries but I'm about to republish it because , guess what ? No one was buying it with that title because they got it's not interesting , I know .

And , like I said , I've published other books that many teachers have found very helpful , and yet this one just got buried in the algorithm and I feel like geez , I can't give this book away and the information in it is so awesome . Oh , I'm sure I'm gonna pull it . I'm gonna put a new title on it , that's , I don't know , leaving school on time .

I don't know whatever it is that people feel that they need right , but they're not like I said , I think this word Boundaries gets a bad rap . It sounds aggressive and it isn't . It's kind , protecting your energy , I'm gonna come back to that .

The best thing you can do for your students and for yourself is to remember your energy teaches more than your lesson plans . How you show up matters . It matters more than the curriculum you have , what you have on the wall , what you're wearing . I see people put so much energy into like , oh , especially gosh , we're doing remote learning . Oh man .

We're getting a lot of tangent . But to tell you what showing up as your best self is , it's like we had never , oh my God , and I told forth , we had never opened Google classroom . We never , even took our current books home that Friday Exactly . So by Monday we needed to be doing all this . And I remember the first Zoom .

So happy I got all my kids on Zoom . Everybody got on literally as I started . Who has a sibling in middle school ? Go get them . They're gonna show us like they shared .

I mean bubble baths and pedicures are great , but how about getting some decent sleep ? How about you know , drinking some water ?

That's the nervous system can't absorb that , right . And then you show up just like already drained and you've got , you know , you're being picked to death by . You know 40 ducks in your room , right , how many do you have in a day ?

And they're already traumatized because their parents just did yes , right , it's not a recipe for the magic that you know we want in the classroom , and so not every day is gonna be magic . Every some days are gonna be survival mode , and that's okay .

But when you have been showing up as your best self for a long time , the days that aren't magical and the days where you don't feel so great , you know those students extend some grace to you .

And then I got called into middle school and you know I guess I did okay , and then they only ever wanted to call me from middle school because nobody wanted to do middle school . And I was kind of like , yeah , no , I get that . I mean , firstly , they're taller than me , so that doesn't help , right .

So thank you , grace , and we'll see you all again back here next week for another episode of the Teaching Middle School ELA podcast . Bye for now , everybody .