Episode 75: Paulo Tan: Humanizing Disabilities, Cultivating Resistance

2 00:00:05.380 --> 00:00:22.160 Jennifer A. Wolfe: Hello, and thank you for listening to the teaching math teaching Podcast. The teaching math teaching podcast is sponsored by the association of mathematics, teacher, educators, a community of math teacher, Educators learning to teach math teachers better I'm your Co-host Jennifer, wolf, and joining Me is Co-host Dusty Jones, hey? Dusty! 3 00:00:22.180 --> 00:00:23.190 Dusty Jones: Hi, Jennifer! 4 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:39.980 Jennifer A. Wolfe: So today we're talking with Paulo Tan Paulo is an assistant professor of STEM Education in the department of educator preparation and leadership at the University of Missouri, St. Louis. His research focuses on advancing intersectional justice in and through mathematics, education, centering disabilities. 5 00:00:39.980 --> 00:00:58.710 Jennifer A. Wolfe: This includes analyzing the experiences of multi marginalized knowers and doers of mathematics. Along with their intersectional identities and oppressive forces, he served as a public school, middle and high, a secondary mathematics teacher for 10 years in culturally and linguistically diverse settings in Kansas and Indiana. 6 00:00:58.790 --> 00:01:10.590 Jennifer A. Wolfe: We're talking with Paulo today so that he may share some of his experiences in math, teacher, education, and in his work in humanizing disabilities in mathematics, education. Welcome, Paulo, how are you? 7 00:01:11.290 --> 00:01:13.000 ptnpn: Hello, I am doing great. 8 00:01:13.030 --> 00:01:23.700 Jennifer A. Wolfe: Yes, thank you so much. Yeah, so happy to have you here and have this conversation so can you take a minute to introduce yourself beyond what I already shared like? What did we miss? 9 00:01:24.880 --> 00:01:31.420 ptnpn: Yes, I i'm Paul Tan, and I think an important aspect of who I am and why I do. This work 10 00:01:31.640 --> 00:01:43.010 ptnpn: is that I am a parent of a disabled person, and throughout the journey from Kevin, who is the person I was speaking about 11 00:01:43.720 --> 00:01:53.560 ptnpn: from Kindergarten on to now, and he's just about ready to turn 19. We've been experiencing lots, as you can imagine. 12 00:01:53.980 --> 00:02:06.710 ptnpn: issues with school in particular, with mathematics, education. So that's a big part of who I am in the work that I bring. I'm, also a Chinese American. I am an immigrant to this country. I, 13 00:02:07.650 --> 00:02:11.070 ptnpn: my family, and I arrived here 14 00:02:11.190 --> 00:02:18.100 ptnpn: when I was about 11, so I I grew up as a multi-year-older in schools, and was. 15 00:02:18.510 --> 00:02:28.400 ptnpn: as I think, the experiences of some immigrants that I was. I excelled in mathematics, or I thought I excelled in mathematics, and 16 00:02:28.990 --> 00:02:32.980 ptnpn: and really liked the subject a lot. That's 17 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:37.040 ptnpn: also a big part of who I am. And Why do the things that I do? 18 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:44.680 Jennifer A. Wolfe: Thank you, Paulo, so much for sharing that so curious. How did you get started teaching math teachers? 19 00:02:47.330 --> 00:03:08.430 ptnpn: I think I was pushed into it. And this is really interesting because I actually entered the Ph. D. In Math education program based on several factors. I I was in the classroom as as a then secondary math teacher. 20 00:03:08.580 --> 00:03:22.410 ptnpn: and and became really dissatisfied with my own math teaching. I I knew that I was missing quite a bit of Skills knowledge, and I felt like I need to know more 21 00:03:22.710 --> 00:03:30.780 ptnpn: at at the same time. My then partner suggested that I I become a medical doctor, and I was like 22 00:03:30.940 --> 00:03:52.790 ptnpn: why, and my partner was like Well, they make a lot of money because she was working at a, at a, at a hospital in, and got the privilege to know a little bit more about the salaries of folks, and and so my part that mind, then, partner, push me into the medical Doctor Field, and I was like Well. 23 00:03:52.890 --> 00:04:00.610 ptnpn: maybe that's not the field I want to be in. I actually I could be a doctor in another field. So that was a compromise 24 00:04:00.910 --> 00:04:15.680 ptnpn: at that. At that time I also was teaching as adjunct at a junior college. and so I really like that work as well, and then, and I app apply to be like a full time 25 00:04:15.770 --> 00:04:20.000 ptnpn: faculty person. And and I essentially, I 26 00:04:20.570 --> 00:04:31.630 ptnpn: thought that I got rejected because I didn't have a doctor, and so i'm like, okay, I I need a doctor to just to also be able to teach at, You know, a potential 27 00:04:32.110 --> 00:04:36.430 ptnpn: new career, if you will. And so those 3 28 00:04:36.670 --> 00:04:53.560 ptnpn: together came came together, and and then I went to Dr. Susan Gay as as as a a big person there at Amt, and because I was at the I I did my undergraduate at the University of Kansas. 29 00:04:53.940 --> 00:05:10.040 ptnpn: and and as well as my masters, and in. Dr. Gay was the the math educator at the over Kansas, and I went to Dr. Gay. I was like, hey, I want to enter a doctoral program method. And and can I get into it at the universe? Kansas or Ku? 30 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:27.570 ptnpn: And she was like No, go East, and it is kind of like that because she was like, I think there are so many more opportunities at 31 00:05:27.570 --> 00:05:36.600 ptnpn: in Virgin Maryland, you know, for Delaware, Penn State University University of Georgia, and and it was I mean, it was just amazing, like Whoa 32 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:49.160 ptnpn: Method was offering back then, and and probably still is for doctoral students. And so I got the opportunity to, you know, travel there to visit, to learn more about method programs there. And so 33 00:05:49.170 --> 00:05:57.990 ptnpn: all that is to say, that I I actually ended up at the University of Georgia as a math, the educated doctoral student, and 34 00:05:58.450 --> 00:06:09.540 ptnpn: and I I actually didn't really know. I mean, I like. I said I had something in mind like, okay, this is what i'm gonna do when I get my Phd. And then I got to work with Chandra Orle, who 35 00:06:09.740 --> 00:06:26.230 ptnpn: at at 1 point, pulled me in it, said, okay, let's let's work on professional development for math coaches. And I was like what like I I I was like, okay, I and I I couldn't offer much. I I was like I I was a math teacher. I don't know how to 36 00:06:26.580 --> 00:06:29.980 ptnpn: work and support other math teachers. I 37 00:06:29.980 --> 00:06:50.800 ptnpn: I I need support myself. And so that's kind of how it started in many ways that I was pushed in to work with math teachers. And and then I continue actually my doctor program at Indiana University, and there I met Cena Kasberg, who also, I think, push me in like, okay, these are the courses you're teaching, and these are 38 00:06:50.960 --> 00:06:59.820 ptnpn: courses to work with math teachers. And again, I was like You want me to work, my teacher. Still, that's how I started. I was pushed into it. 39 00:07:00.090 --> 00:07:07.300 ptnpn: but i'm really happy that I am where I am just based on all those experiences. 40 00:07:07.620 --> 00:07:16.150 Jennifer A. Wolfe: Well, that's wonderful, and we get to learn so much about the work that you do, and to hear the journey that you've taken to get to where you are now it's just really beautiful. 41 00:07:17.570 --> 00:07:30.940 Jennifer A. Wolfe: What's kind of the like? The best advice you received when you started teaching math teachers, because it sounds like you kind of when a bunch of different places, and got to work with a lot of wonderful people. So what some of the best advice you you received when you started doing this work. 42 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:36.450 ptnpn: I think an advice is really 43 00:07:36.500 --> 00:07:48.080 ptnpn: for me like an embodiment. So how I I mentioned folks like Chandra and Sina, who really embody this again this 44 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:53.850 ptnpn: cultivating way of being and 45 00:07:55.330 --> 00:08:02.180 ptnpn: shaped, I think, who I am, and also shaped what I could pass on 46 00:08:02.300 --> 00:08:05.170 ptnpn: to others like be a cultivator of 47 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:15.100 ptnpn: who they are. And so I think this embodiment also works the other way. In that I I work with seeing a at the time. I was just like 48 00:08:15.260 --> 00:08:24.300 ptnpn: a enchantre, just amazed on, you know, the knowledge, the deep that knowledge they possess. At the same time they were like 49 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:42.280 ptnpn: I I I want to learn from you, and i'm like again, like you want to learn from me like you. You have all this body of knowledge, all of these just strong skills, if you will, in. And so that environment, I think, is really important for us as math educators 50 00:08:42.490 --> 00:08:48.430 ptnpn: at any stage in our journey. because we we want to be 51 00:08:48.460 --> 00:09:00.210 ptnpn: cultivators, as well as at the same time be called to these, as as being able to learn from others as as being able to be shaped by others, and so that humility. 52 00:09:00.310 --> 00:09:04.250 ptnpn: as well as the the way that you know folks 53 00:09:04.510 --> 00:09:09.260 ptnpn: throughout my journey have have been those I I feel like cultivating 54 00:09:09.570 --> 00:09:24.450 ptnpn: who I am, and what again, without me, even knowing that I could become something, or that that I had that in me so again, that I, as I feel, like many of us, express that imposter syndrome. 55 00:09:24.800 --> 00:09:39.780 ptnpn: I I felt that throughout I I feel it sometimes as well currently, but I think when there are folks there in the math Education community who are there to cultivate you, and also reciprocate that. I think that is. 56 00:09:39.780 --> 00:09:47.140 ptnpn: I think, an embodiment that I I feel like it's a it's a great way that we are, and we operate as a community. 57 00:09:47.710 --> 00:09:49.350 Jennifer A. Wolfe: Yeah, I love how you 58 00:09:49.390 --> 00:10:00.640 Jennifer A. Wolfe: you think about it as embodiment that that idea that, like we're here to learn from and with each other. So how do we cultivate and honor the best in both of us and learn from one another 59 00:10:00.690 --> 00:10:05.540 Jennifer A. Wolfe: that's just beautiful. Yeah, that is great advice. I love that. I love that advice. 60 00:10:05.660 --> 00:10:10.120 Jennifer A. Wolfe: So when you think about your work in mathematics, teacher, education. 61 00:10:10.210 --> 00:10:27.920 Jennifer A. Wolfe: What's one word you'd like to offer? That helps you center the work that you do with math teachers so often we don't get a lot of time with math teachers right? We might get a semester. We might get a summer doing professional development. So what keeps you grounded like? What's a word that kind of centers you in the the work that you do? 62 00:10:31.070 --> 00:10:35.230 ptnpn: I would say the word is resistance, and so 63 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:48.110 ptnpn: I I think that teachers and students in that at a resistance in their babyly practices, and and sometimes may not name it as such. 64 00:10:48.800 --> 00:10:54.320 ptnpn: And so in the course work that I do with prospective teachers. It is 65 00:10:54.640 --> 00:11:05.610 ptnpn: a lot of them will say that we are going against the great I mean I I love how they sum it up for for me like. And my yeah, that that is what we're doing in this class. We're we're challenging 66 00:11:06.210 --> 00:11:25.220 ptnpn: systems of question. We we're practicing antibiotism. We're practicing anti-racism. We're going against dehumanizing ways of doing mathematics like that only focus on procedural direct deficit ways of of thinking about students and teachers and so on. 67 00:11:25.370 --> 00:11:29.580 ptnpn: I I really think that will. Resistance really captures 68 00:11:29.870 --> 00:11:36.290 ptnpn: my work with prospective teachers in particular. and I would say my scholarship as well. 69 00:11:36.400 --> 00:11:48.440 Jennifer A. Wolfe: Yeah, I love that resistance. So it's it's in by it's embodied throughout the work that you do, both in the classroom and in your scholarly research work in the writing that you do, too. 70 00:11:49.110 --> 00:11:55.260 Jennifer A. Wolfe: So now, what advice would you offer to someone else starting out in this role? In working with math teachers? 71 00:11:57.560 --> 00:12:06.320 ptnpn: I think I I will kind of circle back to what I said earlier in that there are a lot of things as someone who's starting out 72 00:12:06.490 --> 00:12:29.130 ptnpn: that you bring, that you will bring, and so be open to be cultivated as well as in in and just being okay with that, like, okay, finding you a a place you want to be finding out more about. You are developing more about. You are so I think that's important 73 00:12:29.610 --> 00:12:32.090 ptnpn: there. So many amazing 74 00:12:32.460 --> 00:12:44.310 ptnpn: folks in our math education community, and you know, making those deep connections, I think is really important, being able to connect as it's. I think I've done 75 00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:45.830 ptnpn: for 76 00:12:45.950 --> 00:12:57.230 ptnpn: the work that I do with folks throughout the country just and we are like in many ways we we are not a large community. 77 00:12:57.330 --> 00:13:10.100 ptnpn: but I think it's important to make some of those connections and really support one another as that embodiment that I shared with you with being a cultivator and a cold. V. 78 00:13:10.930 --> 00:13:17.780 Jennifer A. Wolfe: Yeah, it's really their gifts right, and being open to receiving those gifts from others, but also giving those out. 79 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:24.040 Dusty Jones: Yeah. And that that reminds me of the story that you told earlier about how. 80 00:13:24.090 --> 00:13:27.980 Dusty Jones: when you were, I guess were you teaching in the State of Kansas, or in a. 81 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:42.570 ptnpn: in the Lawrence area, or where where were you@iwasinactuallykansascitywhichisaboutanhourawayfromsoigrewupinkansascitykansasandwine.county actually attended Summer High School. And 82 00:13:42.570 --> 00:13:55.670 Dusty Jones: so you're you're saying these words i'm like, oh, yes, so it's ringing bells for me. But when you were looking for a doctoral program. One thing Susan could have said is, yes, come here. We need more. Doctoral students 83 00:13:55.680 --> 00:14:05.770 Dusty Jones: stay here with us, but but instead she decided to help you, you know. Point, she decide to point you to the others and see what else is going on. 84 00:14:06.200 --> 00:14:08.400 Dusty Jones: and I just. I see a great 85 00:14:08.420 --> 00:14:16.270 Dusty Jones: thread coming through what you've experienced, and how you describe this, as you know, helping students also see where they fit in 86 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:35.790 Dusty Jones: to the community, what they can bring, and and that doesn't mean that everything has to come from, say for from me. But i'm i'm giving other people some ways to help themselves grow, and If I don't have those resources, then I can say, Well, but look at what these other people are doing. Get learn from them. So that's really great. 87 00:14:36.940 --> 00:14:44.470 ptnpn: Yeah. And and I I see that so much in in my current work as well as we are constantly 88 00:14:45.940 --> 00:14:55.020 ptnpn: pushing or pointing, or supporting our students in in so many different ways. And it's I think it's very amazing that how 89 00:14:55.100 --> 00:14:56.400 ptnpn: things just 90 00:14:56.610 --> 00:15:16.550 ptnpn: not just, but it it works out in ways like things happen in in ways that we we can't anticipate. I mean, I think that's maybe a a a story of life as well. One thing lead to leads to another, and and then we are the ones that are now in the position that we are doing what 91 00:15:17.570 --> 00:15:23.430 ptnpn: Dr. Susan Gay did in in directing folks to a place, and I 92 00:15:23.940 --> 00:15:52.650 ptnpn: actually met with Dr. Gay this past Mte, and we just had this conversation, and and she remember the conversation we had. I'm like you remember that she yeah, I remember telling you it goes somewhere, and and she was like it. Looks like it worked out really Well, I think so. And she was, you know, just so gracious and and and generous is like you're doing some amazing work. And so it was just really nice to to connect with Dr. Gay after 93 00:15:52.650 --> 00:15:59.240 ptnpn: all these years. All you know the journey that we've been through that I I think that's, I think. 94 00:15:59.710 --> 00:16:01.120 ptnpn: speaks to 95 00:16:01.270 --> 00:16:10.970 ptnpn: the community that we have here, and how we are supporting each other, and and how things work in in in, in sort of a cycle in many ways. 96 00:16:13.420 --> 00:16:21.760 Jennifer A. Wolfe: Apollo, how do you set boundaries and priorities to get the things done that you need to get done? And and it's still enjoy your life. 97 00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:31.290 ptnpn: What I like to do as as much as possible is to dictate my own schedule. So, and one thing that 98 00:16:31.390 --> 00:16:39.550 ptnpn: throughout my experiences and I've I've been through. Jen. I think you capture well a journey. 99 00:16:40.500 --> 00:16:43.130 ptnpn: or pretty much all of my life. 100 00:16:43.350 --> 00:16:50.990 ptnpn: And so at at 1 point, and this was a few years ago that in in. Some 101 00:16:51.140 --> 00:16:58.270 ptnpn: of you may may not be familiar with this, but when you work for certain organizations 102 00:16:58.730 --> 00:17:16.369 ptnpn: they have like access to your calendar, and so they will schedule things for you like. Oh, I see an opening here. We're gonna have a meeting at this time. It it's so like as like I could at being in both areas. I'm like that's I feel like that's kind of invasive for me. 103 00:17:16.369 --> 00:17:21.940 ptnpn: But I mean that that was a culture like that's how we work like we need to set meetings. And so this is 104 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:38.500 ptnpn: again for efficiency sake. That's how we do things, and I I really dislike that. And so i'm now in the position where I have my calendar back on my own, like no one knows, and that's good, because then I could say 105 00:17:38.650 --> 00:17:41.980 ptnpn: this meeting. Yes, no. 106 00:17:42.130 --> 00:17:53.520 ptnpn: I have time, but i'm not going to schedule a meeting here, so I I I want to put as much of that control if you will on me like I want to set that. And and I know, like that, I need 107 00:17:53.570 --> 00:17:58.550 ptnpn: this. These these are my access needs right. I I need time to 108 00:17:58.740 --> 00:18:17.860 ptnpn: do some activity, some physical activity, and I will do that. So there's no worry like for me like I will get what I need with family, with activities, with other things and and everything else for me at this point in my life is works around 109 00:18:17.940 --> 00:18:32.800 ptnpn: like my dedicated work, if you will, or my actual job revolves the activities. So that's how you know it. Doesn't always work out nicely. There are always overlaps, but as much as possible. That's what I try to do. 110 00:18:33.080 --> 00:18:50.770 Jennifer A. Wolfe: That's a good point that you bring up that because there are some organizations where it's just nice. I know in the business world. They do that a lot. Right Here's this: here's this time slots they're open, and so people just schedule you. And it just reminded me of when we have our calendar, just because you have time doesn't mean you're available 111 00:18:51.140 --> 00:18:58.830 ptnpn: physically, emotionally like. So sometimes we need to block out those times, because, even though the time is there, and that calendar is open. 112 00:18:58.990 --> 00:19:04.840 Jennifer A. Wolfe: You may not be available for that, and that's that's okay, like you. You may need to do those things. 113 00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:12.460 Jennifer A. Wolfe: but it definitely helps to have control of your calendar. 114 00:19:12.730 --> 00:19:19.050 Jennifer A. Wolfe: So can you talk a little bit about your work on humanizing disabilities and mathematics education. 115 00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:24.900 ptnpn: So my work I i'm gonna 116 00:19:24.910 --> 00:19:32.130 ptnpn: credit a lot of my work to Cena Kasburg, who I mentioned earlier. 117 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:37.020 ptnpn: who really turn me into the field. So my journey 118 00:19:37.730 --> 00:19:52.550 ptnpn: to me from math education to special education. And so I actually my degrees actually special education. And and Cena started off as my advisor, and continued in in, and ultimately 119 00:19:52.550 --> 00:20:04.620 ptnpn: became a member of my Dissertation Committee, and in Sina really turned me to this field of equity in math education, which at at that time I had very little knowledge of so 120 00:20:04.750 --> 00:20:14.980 ptnpn: folks like Danny Martin Roshaw with terrorist and rico. Good thing, I mean. I was like, Whoa! What is this and and and so that really 121 00:20:16.660 --> 00:20:32.440 ptnpn: made this term for me like from like this. Maybe I would say traditional mathematics, education to like this work in the field of equity in in, and how that is a whole different world in many ways. And so that's I. 122 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:44.580 ptnpn: I would say, how I turn into this idea of humanizing disability in mathematics education, because at that time, again, I was really immersed in the feel of special education, really 123 00:20:44.870 --> 00:20:51.940 ptnpn: working within a lot of those paradigms a lot of those behaviors, Positivist miracle 124 00:20:52.130 --> 00:20:54.280 ptnpn: paradigms, and then 125 00:20:54.320 --> 00:21:02.400 ptnpn: that the equity work was was not, did not have much about this ability, although Cena did work with another 126 00:21:02.530 --> 00:21:04.200 ptnpn: former Doc student. 127 00:21:04.340 --> 00:21:13.660 ptnpn: who, whose name is Gina Borgioli and Gina, did some really awesome work with Ableism in math education. So I think those 128 00:21:13.990 --> 00:21:22.500 ptnpn: that work Bestina had with us Gina and and the work of equity in mathematic education 129 00:21:23.070 --> 00:21:26.470 ptnpn: as well as at the same time. Again, in this journey. 130 00:21:26.510 --> 00:21:39.780 ptnpn: I was working with somebody who had a strong disability. Studies and education focus, and again, turn me from this special education focus to like a disability studies, education. So all those 131 00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:49.700 ptnpn: experiences converge for me in in how it became like this idea of humanizing disability in mathematics, education. So 132 00:21:49.980 --> 00:22:06.280 ptnpn: the person I I I just mentioned with disability Studies is is the name is Kathleen K. Notorious, and she was another, I think, cultivator. She pulled me into like the Great Lakes Equity Center, which is a for federally funded equity Assistance Center. 133 00:22:06.530 --> 00:22:29.010 ptnpn: and and Kathleen has a lot of a strong orientation for disability studies. And so all these ways of how all these things about. So yeah, that's my work with humanizing math, my education and and I I would say that the work is really in in in really straightforward terms. It's really about calling out the wrongs 134 00:22:29.320 --> 00:22:41.060 ptnpn: in writing the wrongs. And so here I i'm invoking Octavia E. Butler in in in how that is the work that we do, and so that that's essentially what 135 00:22:41.520 --> 00:22:46.540 ptnpn: humanizing disability mathematics, education is about 136 00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:59.130 ptnpn: in, in that these wrongs are right systemic in many ways and in manifest at various levels, such as at the individual level with forces available, is, for example. 137 00:22:59.650 --> 00:23:07.220 ptnpn: and humanizing disability. Mathematic education is also for me. It's a human rights issue. 138 00:23:07.320 --> 00:23:17.710 ptnpn: and it it. It extends beyond that education, and it involves in it's for, and it's with, and it's by disabled folks. So 139 00:23:18.810 --> 00:23:32.250 ptnpn: I think it's it's an anti-ablist in nature. It's intersectional and it's very intentional about centering the full range of disability so I I feel like in math education. We've 140 00:23:32.260 --> 00:23:37.410 ptnpn: had a lot of focus on one kind of disability which is 141 00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:39.360 ptnpn: learning disability. 142 00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:46.460 ptnpn: and we haven't had too much attention on again the full range disabilities of. 143 00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:53.840 ptnpn: for example, not only the token categories that exist in schools, if you will, but those that 144 00:23:54.270 --> 00:24:00.630 ptnpn: disabilities that go undiagnosed, or disabilities that are or fluid in nature. So I think that 145 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:06.220 ptnpn: range is of all also a big, important aspect that we, as a fuel, need to take 146 00:24:06.280 --> 00:24:07.620 ptnpn: and consider. 147 00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:16.440 ptnpn: So yeah, that's that's humanizing disability. Mathematics going up wrong and righting wrongs. And 148 00:24:16.760 --> 00:24:23.850 ptnpn: I think right. Now, i'm also thinking about dreaming as as another step as it's as it's. 149 00:24:23.970 --> 00:24:28.980 ptnpn: bringing with those who are most marginalize this. how that can form our work as well 150 00:24:29.750 --> 00:24:35.050 Jennifer A. Wolfe: like what's possible, If we just kind of like tear down existing structures. 151 00:24:35.480 --> 00:24:40.350 Jennifer A. Wolfe: If we wanted, what would that look like? And going back to that that word resistance. 152 00:24:40.830 --> 00:24:48.480 Jennifer A. Wolfe: right and going. So when I think about your work in humanizing disabilities earlier. You talked about how you have a child 153 00:24:48.610 --> 00:24:55.840 Jennifer A. Wolfe: with disabilities and and then special education. Wasn't really your focus like you didn't have that kind of 154 00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:10.940 Jennifer A. Wolfe: throughout before you got your doctorate right? So i'm curious as to like now, seeing all this scholarship, and then being one of the scholars that's doing this work. How is that kind of informed the work that you've done? Not only with teachers, but just with your family. 155 00:25:15.990 --> 00:25:18.820 ptnpn: I love that question. It's 156 00:25:19.700 --> 00:25:21.240 ptnpn: the 157 00:25:22.100 --> 00:25:35.550 ptnpn: it's interesting because I I I was sharing the journey. And you when when I was teaching math at the High School, when I. I mainly taught what was interesting, as I mainly taught 158 00:25:35.770 --> 00:25:41.650 ptnpn: in remedial courses, for the most part that that was 159 00:25:42.040 --> 00:25:46.110 ptnpn: where I think in the district I was teaching. They were like, Well, you were. 160 00:25:46.550 --> 00:26:03.090 ptnpn: You're young, your mail. This is where you could go to help us, and you will be great, and so i'm like fine. Let's let's see what's what happens. And and I actually really enjoyed it in in what was interesting is that I I think a lot of math. 161 00:26:03.430 --> 00:26:10.450 ptnpn: Former teachers and current teacher will will understand the the math, one which is the high school 162 00:26:11.050 --> 00:26:19.280 ptnpn: equivalent of the lowest math that you could possibly have in, and that is for for the district. I was working with 163 00:26:19.710 --> 00:26:30.610 ptnpn: the everybody who, you know, struggle with math, so called, struggle with math. And and so you had 9 tenth, 11 twelfth graders in that class all together. 164 00:26:30.790 --> 00:26:39.360 ptnpn: and that was also the inclusion class. So you had students with disabilities. Oh, we want to include, since with this village. Okay, let's include them here. So 165 00:26:39.570 --> 00:26:40.790 ptnpn: I like 166 00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:47.670 ptnpn: well, that class because of the students that I got to engage with who 167 00:26:48.230 --> 00:26:54.480 ptnpn: or of of course, not thought of highly from this school's point of view. 168 00:26:54.640 --> 00:27:14.470 ptnpn: but I got to work with them, and so I I. I connect a lot of the work of special education to that experience of of like. This is what it means, both good and bad, of being included. And so, when I became a parent, I I I felt like that. Was, you know, something that we can do a lot better 169 00:27:14.580 --> 00:27:21.790 ptnpn: with, and I wanted my child to experience that in school again a a, a. 170 00:27:21.840 --> 00:27:33.370 ptnpn: a a improved version of that understanding the the processes, because. as a math teacher, I remember attending Iep meetings and and just really 171 00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:44.620 ptnpn: not having much input just being there signing off. And and that's the experiences as as I I've learned in in my research of a lot of math teachers. And so 172 00:27:45.120 --> 00:27:52.540 ptnpn: and so my question is is as a parent, as a researcher is is like, what what can we do as math teachers to 173 00:27:54.370 --> 00:28:09.260 ptnpn: push for better in mathematics, learning, environment for students, with disabilities, as as you mentioned in that, as that that was going to be that was going to be my experience as I was going through my doctor program, knowing that in the upcoming 174 00:28:09.580 --> 00:28:16.080 ptnpn: 12 years that would be something I would be facing as as a parent. So 175 00:28:16.080 --> 00:28:34.280 ptnpn: that yeah, that came together. And in reading this different scholarship on inclusive education, on mathematics, equity, I was like we could do this. Po folks right? Let's let's try it and in and then that was very naive, of course, of me to to think that way, because then the forces like 176 00:28:34.280 --> 00:28:41.470 ptnpn: No, that is not possible. Here we don't do this, and so that that for me became 177 00:28:41.510 --> 00:28:48.610 ptnpn: a a a a big part of my research. It's like, Why can't we do this? How can we do this? What can we dream about 178 00:28:48.950 --> 00:28:53.370 ptnpn: for the thriving of all students? Because 179 00:28:53.800 --> 00:29:07.340 ptnpn: when we miss folks in our mathematics community. Not only do the folks that are missing out in the community, but but those who are in the community. If you will are missing out on that 180 00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:13.760 ptnpn: brilliance that is not there in conversation, so that that 181 00:29:13.930 --> 00:29:20.380 ptnpn: to me is how it comes together in in in some way. 182 00:29:21.140 --> 00:29:28.670 Jennifer A. Wolfe: I love that. Yeah. A lot of the work that you all have done is made me really think about. So my sister 183 00:29:28.790 --> 00:29:44.930 Jennifer A. Wolfe: has a disability, and it is. It was at a time where the students were in self contained classrooms and another building, usually in the basement, right? And then her junior and senior year they decide. Okay? Well, we need to make things more inclusive. So now we're going to put you in 184 00:29:45.070 --> 00:29:58.650 Jennifer A. Wolfe: what they called mainstream classes, right? And it was just a shock to the system, right? And then I the work that's out there in the research that you all have been doing, and has given me a better language and a lens to understand. 185 00:29:58.690 --> 00:30:05.450 Jennifer A. Wolfe: like what it must have been like for my sister, and to have these conversations with her, and then just opened it up to like 186 00:30:05.660 --> 00:30:23.690 Jennifer A. Wolfe: the different ways that my sister was not viewed as capable, and the ways that I see her is capable, and the the way that she is mathematically gifted, that just wasn't seen right? And so I really take to heart a lot of the work in Ableism and thinking about inclusivity and sometimes inclusivity. Isn't 187 00:30:24.230 --> 00:30:40.980 Jennifer A. Wolfe: what's best sometimes, or what they need. So how are we talking with our students like? I think, about one of your articles on thinking about the rights of presence. Right that that co-authoring. So when you brought up Iep like what role do students have 188 00:30:41.150 --> 00:30:47.280 Jennifer A. Wolfe: right and your role as an advocate for what they feel they need right, and it becomes a conversation about 189 00:30:47.530 --> 00:30:53.340 Jennifer A. Wolfe: what would my individual education plan look like if I had my voice shared as as part of that. 190 00:30:54.970 --> 00:30:59.900 Jennifer A. Wolfe: and that work to try to try to humanize disability. And in mathematics learning. 191 00:31:00.190 --> 00:31:18.540 ptnpn: Yeah, I I think what you said there about inclusive education, that that may be the goal. And even though we, we are far from that goal, that even if we do have inclusion for everybody that we still have a lot of what to do. So 192 00:31:18.660 --> 00:31:21.100 ptnpn: what you mentioned there about rifle presence like. 193 00:31:21.150 --> 00:31:29.450 ptnpn: I think it's really important to shift our focus that we shouldn't just talk about inclusion because inclusion is, it's like 194 00:31:29.470 --> 00:31:38.020 ptnpn: problematic in many ways. If we talk about rifle presence and the brilliance. the inherent prevalence of everyone who is 195 00:31:38.300 --> 00:31:50.480 ptnpn: rightfully part of that community. Then it's it's a very different conversation. And how they offer. for example, they're right. So yeah, I I. I agree with you there, and thank you, Jen, for sharing 196 00:31:50.700 --> 00:31:52.670 ptnpn: that experience as well. 197 00:31:52.940 --> 00:32:03.260 Jennifer A. Wolfe: Yeah. And we'll definitely link in the show notes. The the work that you did with like Kathry a. And Daniel Ryan holds on in your article rightful presence in times of 198 00:32:03.270 --> 00:32:12.840 Jennifer A. Wolfe: crisis and uprising, and equity and excellence in education, and then the work that on rightful presence that you did with Erica Mason, Alexis Padilla. 199 00:32:12.910 --> 00:32:25.090 Jennifer A. Wolfe: and that work for practicing teachers. Yeah, I just I love that framing of the rightful presence, because it feature it into your work in humanizing disabilities. And I recommend everyone. Go out and and read those articles. 200 00:32:25.170 --> 00:32:27.650 ptnpn: and when we invite you to 201 00:32:27.750 --> 00:32:42.320 ptnpn: support us in thinking about rifle presence, because we then thinking about it, we we're I mean rifle presence is, is it's not something I coin. It was something I I I drew on from science educators. 202 00:32:42.460 --> 00:32:57.050 ptnpn: Angela, Callabrich, Barton, and Edna Tan, who who've done lot of work with rifle presence. And so what we're trying to do as Matt educators is. Try to see. What what does this mean for a field? What can, how can we expand it, and also include 203 00:32:57.760 --> 00:33:14.730 ptnpn: in center issues with disabilities. Because I think that is something that I think in initially, was not the intention of rifle presence. But we see it as something that can be central to the tenants of rifle presence. So we invite others 204 00:33:14.730 --> 00:33:24.420 ptnpn: who I want to share and and and want to be part of this work because we yeah, we ask the community again. We we would love to learn from you. 205 00:33:24.570 --> 00:33:44.550 Jennifer A. Wolfe: Yeah, I think it's a great framing for thinking about in your work with mathematics, teacher, education, educators, right our pre-service teachers and service teachers like as a general kind of framing of like, how are you? How are you developing the curriculum that you use in your courses, and then go back to your word Resistance, right? So who does this include this is not include. 206 00:33:44.550 --> 00:34:01.760 Jennifer A. Wolfe: Whose voices are we centering? Who are we not centering, and also made me think about connections to the tour is right to the learner and the work that Crystal Kalin at Craig is doing, making connections between rightful presence and method. And then the tour is right to the learner just getting getting me to think about those things. 207 00:34:02.560 --> 00:34:11.969 ptnpn: What I didn't. You took up the invitation there? I just took up the invitation. I was. Hmm. Yeah. So seeing some connections around that that work. 208 00:34:12.030 --> 00:34:13.330 ptnpn: love. 209 00:34:13.610 --> 00:34:21.280 Jennifer A. Wolfe: So what resources would you recommend for those interested? Learn to learning more about humanizing disabilities in mathematics, education. 210 00:34:22.139 --> 00:34:42.190 ptnpn: Oh, well, there they are, quite a bit so I would say 2 resources that are a little bit broader, so not not specific to math education, but helps me, and I I use it quite a bit in in my work. And so this is Subini animal, and that mor since 2,018 article. 211 00:34:42.370 --> 00:34:52.610 ptnpn: The title of it is this great classroom ecology, using practice to dismantle dysfunctional education ecologies. And so this this. 212 00:34:52.780 --> 00:35:11.960 ptnpn: I think, if if we think about the 3 areas. I think you mentioned one already, Jen: so curriculum, pedagogy and relationships or solidarity. So those 3 areas are central to this idea of like dismantling in. And again, what does that mean for mathematics, education? So we we started to do some work around this 213 00:35:12.110 --> 00:35:18.740 ptnpn: application if we will, and how we are conceiving of that. And and hopefully, that article will be out soon. 214 00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:28.540 ptnpn: So that's one resource. I think it's been very helpful for me, and in the what that I do. The other one I i'm gonna go broader here and 215 00:35:28.540 --> 00:35:41.680 ptnpn: kind of go outside of field of education is a book that I read, you might be familiar with Sammy Shawk, and the the title of the book is called Body Minds Reimagine. And so it really takes a very 216 00:35:42.000 --> 00:36:00.000 ptnpn: cultural historical view of disability and the future of you on disability. As we talked about here today, Jen. And so I think that is a book again that has me really thinking a lot about disabilities. And and and this idea of dreaming of what's possible. So 217 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:04.150 ptnpn: those are resources from outside the fuel. 218 00:36:04.190 --> 00:36:17.790 ptnpn: if you will the the book that I co-authored with Alexis Padilla, Erica Mason, and James Sheldon this is a 2019, and ctm book humanizing disabilities in mathematics, education forging new path. 219 00:36:17.820 --> 00:36:36.150 ptnpn: That's something that I I spoke about quite a bit in this podcast, and the what that I've been building from in in thinking more about. So I I think that's a great resource for folks to to just kind of get into who who are just trying to see what 220 00:36:36.210 --> 00:36:42.820 ptnpn: What is Paul talking about when he's calling all these things out, and and I think the the 221 00:36:42.850 --> 00:36:46.990 ptnpn: Journal of, or Mathematics Education, 2,017 article I 222 00:36:47.300 --> 00:36:55.850 ptnpn: co-wrote that with Sina and I shared the story about how seen that help cultivate who I am, and that article really came out of 223 00:36:56.050 --> 00:37:02.170 ptnpn: was. I'll share this a story about that. That article came out of an 224 00:37:02.660 --> 00:37:04.690 ptnpn: proposal that was rejected. 225 00:37:04.720 --> 00:37:23.440 ptnpn: And now it also docs to me. I was like i'm gonna submit your N. Ctm: and she's like, yeah, yeah, let's do it in in in. And she's like this is great, You know. This is how she is like this is great. It got rejected. But that's okay. You know we could do something else with this. And and so the you know, when I, 226 00:37:23.660 --> 00:37:33.780 ptnpn: after a few years. I kind of circle back to that. And and I asked, You know you want to cool. Write this article. She's like, yeah, I do. And so this is the 2,017 article that was published in June 227 00:37:33.790 --> 00:37:52.740 ptnpn: Journal of our Mathematics Education. It's it's title calling for research collaborations and use of this ability studies in mathematics, education. So that's another article that I I I think that you know I I Just recently we read, and I was like, yeah, that there there's some great things that I think 228 00:37:53.110 --> 00:38:04.410 ptnpn: I could still pick up on it for me, even though I co-wrote it. And then there! There are some amazing folks that are doing some amazing things in the field. So I would 229 00:38:04.520 --> 00:38:09.110 ptnpn: just to name a few that these are folks in our disability, Justice. 230 00:38:09.230 --> 00:38:11.590 ptnpn: Pm. And a working group. 231 00:38:11.620 --> 00:38:23.530 ptnpn: Folks like Kathry Yay, Joni Wilson, Alexis, Padia, Rachel Lambert, Jessica Hunt, K. You, Lewis, and we have many many outstanding Doctoral students in that group as well. So 232 00:38:23.650 --> 00:38:36.600 ptnpn: Katie Westby for one afir Ramero, Alexa Lee Hassan, I mean again, i'm not naming everybody. Just kind of a sample of the many outstanding folks and works that folks can 233 00:38:36.820 --> 00:38:38.060 ptnpn: follow up with. 234 00:38:38.890 --> 00:38:47.050 Jennifer A. Wolfe: Okay, and you mentioned that this was a pme and a working group. So for the folks who are part of Pm. And a. There is a working group that focuses on 235 00:38:47.120 --> 00:38:56.500 ptnpn: disability, justice. and 236 00:38:56.540 --> 00:39:05.980 ptnpn: all are welcome to attend and be part of this group we started this group. I think it was 2,016. It would James Sheldon 237 00:39:05.980 --> 00:39:33.740 ptnpn: and Kyran's started this group and reach out to I think Rachel Lamber at a time, and and me and again I was like what? Why, what do I have to offer? But but again that became part of this cultivating embodiment that I I shared earlier. So that good start of 2,016 we did some really awesome work, and then I think we took a break, and then we just restarted it again this year, and and we we had a a great group this year again. Lots of 238 00:39:33.760 --> 00:39:39.420 ptnpn: folks. We we've done some great things, and we again our our boom, some 239 00:39:40.210 --> 00:39:56.820 ptnpn: activism beyond, like we're trying to embody the the work of disability, studies, disability, justice, and in thinking about, just, for example, like accessibility at a conferences. And and so these are some of the issues that we are taking on as a group, and 240 00:39:56.820 --> 00:40:04.550 ptnpn: and we have a lot of interest. We have a lot of great folks there, and I I think we're doing some really amazing things as a group. 241 00:40:05.070 --> 00:40:11.350 Jennifer A. Wolfe: Wonderful! Is there anything else that you'd like to share with us, or 242 00:40:11.630 --> 00:40:20.680 Jennifer A. Wolfe: just have us put on our radar like to promote like? Do you have any talks coming up, or some folks or organizations, or anything that you'd like to give a shout out to. 243 00:40:21.590 --> 00:40:24.190 ptnpn: I, I would say, like just 244 00:40:24.440 --> 00:40:37.370 ptnpn: going along with the theme that we've been sharing today and having this conversation with is this this idea of being a cultivator or a champion like you? You. You may not, for example, join the disability, justice working, and that's okay. 245 00:40:37.410 --> 00:40:41.870 ptnpn: But but then you, you still are cultivating the work like, for example. 246 00:40:42.220 --> 00:40:52.030 ptnpn: Jen, you you, and thus the inviting me to this podcast, are you? This is a cultivating the work you're championing the work. So whether it be like a podcast or a 247 00:40:53.180 --> 00:41:09.530 ptnpn: and that's a panel or a general reviewer like you are cultivating this Work your champions work you. You're you're you're supporting the work of equity at large, and everything that all the intersectionalities that is encompassing equity, including 248 00:41:09.530 --> 00:41:27.130 ptnpn: disability, and so that, I think is part of for me the charge of the community to to do this. A lot of the issues we face is the opposite, which is people shutting down the word, saying, this is not this. This is not 249 00:41:27.320 --> 00:41:31.110 ptnpn: enough of this is not enough. That and so shutting down the work is like 250 00:41:31.510 --> 00:41:41.050 ptnpn: for me. It's it's like i'm promoting the work right, and so I I think that we, I think we all have been dependent on folks 251 00:41:41.410 --> 00:41:49.850 ptnpn: who have done this for us, and so I I think that's for me is a a. To to be that cultivator to be that champion who 252 00:41:49.910 --> 00:41:53.900 ptnpn: always been there and continue to to do that. 253 00:41:54.370 --> 00:42:03.950 Jennifer A. Wolfe: Yeah. So keep on cultivating in the face of going back to your word resistance, right? So we're facing a lot of resistance in society right now, with a lot of legislation that's coming out, and so 254 00:42:03.960 --> 00:42:05.670 we need to keep pushing back 255 00:42:05.710 --> 00:42:08.730 Jennifer A. Wolfe: right and cultivating. That's beautiful. 256 00:42:08.970 --> 00:42:21.720 Jennifer A. Wolfe: Well, Paula, thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast today. We've learned so much from you, and I know our our listeners are excited to enact and take actions on some things that you shared with us today. So thank you for being here. 257 00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:25.790 ptnpn: Well, thank you. I really enjoyed this conversation. 258 00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:45.320 Jennifer A. Wolfe: Thanks again for listening to the teaching math teaching podcast. If you would like to hear more. Please subscribe to the podcast. We hope that you're able to take action on something that you just heard in an interact with other math teacher Educators also. Did you know that Amte has another podcast, the mathematics teacher, educator, Podcast. 259 00:42:45.320 --> 00:42:57.220 Jennifer A. Wolfe: the Mte Podcast, the companies, the latest edition of the math teacher, educator, journal, and has authors discuss the work they've submitted for publication to the journal. Find a link to the Mte Podcast and the show notes for this episode