Taoist Sexual Secrets ~ Minke de Vos

You know, you're making this other field that's going to pulsate between you. Nice, so you're making qi, making energy. While you're making love. So I'm Shershi Saluno, welcome to the Sex to Spirit podcast. And today I'm very excited because I am chatting with somebody who I've worked with for many years. This is Minka DeVos.

And she has been teaching for many years. Minka, just tell us a little bit about your experience teaching. How long have you been teaching? Over 30 years I've been teaching. And the system that you teach?

Universal Healing Tao, Taoist practices of cultivating sexual energy and energy in general. So this is a very exciting way to start exploring our topic, which is how do you... generate a spiritual experience from a sexual experience how do you actually cultivate that rather than just waiting for it to happen so i think before we delve into that topic

It would be really nice to just find out a little bit about how you ended up in this whole field, your personal story, because it's an exciting story. Yeah, well, I was first practicing Zen practice with Who Am I and koans and following my breath. And after a few days of practicing like that, like a volcano of energy bubbled up through me and started moving in patterns. And over nine months period, I would record all the energy patterns that were moving through my body.

swirling and fountains and orbiting and later on I discovered it was like the whole universe system that was a spontaneous awakening So you were very lucky because it happened spontaneously. But if I'm right, people can actually also do certain practices that can facilitate. Totally. You can put your mind, so wherever your mind goes, your energy goes. So if you put your mind into this flows, channeling the energy into these roots, you can kick it off and open those channels and free them up.

these blockages yeah yeah so just for those who aren't used to like even the word energy and especially those who are you know just kind of used to having sex in a more physical way how what what is the What is the involvement of energy in lovemaking, in sex, in our sexuality? Actually, the sensual touch and the penetration is like a sounding board or springboard for the energy to take off and move.

in your body and then when the energy starts to take off it creates a certain resonance and overtones and then you can actually ride on that overtones of energy i think sound is a good metaphor for the energy So when people are having sex, then they can generate energy in their bodies. Yes, they can. And that energy they can exchange.

And when they exchange energy, they can multiply their gas of energy between them. Right, so a couple can learn to exchange energy. Okay, so how does that look or feel? So you would say...

The polarity of a couple is more yang energy, more yin energy. And when you exchange yang and yin, it actually creates yuan qi, which means the original qi or unconditional love.

so you generate through the friction of yin and yang you create a whole other energy and that's what you could call that making love yeah you know you're making this other field that's going to pulsate between you nice so you're making chi making energy while you're making love and so just just to backtrack a little because there'll be

some people listening who aren't used to the words yin and yang, what is yin and yang energy? Yin would be more feminine, more receptive, and yang would be more masculine, maybe a little more aggressive and more fiery. We could say fire and water. And if you put fire and water together, you create steam. So if you have a fiery person and a watery person together or people who are expressing that energy and they start making love, then...

Some kind of that kind of this having a steaming affair expression. So that steam is that purification of more of a dense sexual energy that can be fairly heavy. right and that is lifted and refined through circulating it uh-huh so Obviously you're very experienced, but for some people this is all very new. So let's break that down a little bit. So we've got this idea that people can carry different energy. Two people are attracted together and they come to make love.

And you mentioned that the energy is heavy. How does that feel to somebody? What is heavy energy? I mean, if you start running, this energy could feel a little sluggish. and could be hard to get going a little bit like sap or sticky or like honey that's a little bit frozen and then when you get heat up with breath and movement and arousal it warms up the honey into this fluid golden liquid elixir they would call it in the dow

so someone's feeling more sluggish in their life you know just feeling a little more like stuck in the same low energy low vibration it's hard to get it up yeah so through love making they can lighten up their energy so tell us you mentioned circulation tell us a little bit about how does one move

into these, how does one start to circulate energy? Well, circulating energy first, a little bit meditative practice on your own. to open up these channels. I find it's really excellent to do because the major channel we're going to circulate energy through is called the microcosmic orbit or the multi-orgasmic channel.

so when you move energy that say up the spine down the front and your tongue is touching on the roof of the mouth it's going to connect two major channels in the body the fire channel which is rising up through the spine and the water channel down the front conception vessel you link those two together it balances fire and water within yourself which is

already inner alchemy so inner alchemy there's so so many concepts all coming at once inner alchemy is like an inner love making you can do on your own yes And when you have that going, that you're open and free, your channels, it's actually quite contagious. So even if your partner doesn't even know about the microcosmic orbit, when it's running in you, and they tend to...

get it kick off. Or you can run your hand up their spine and direct it a little bit with your mind. And it's very responsive to the mind and intention. and so how would that actually feel to somebody who's maybe let's imagine somebody's used to like normal sex that stays on a physical level can be very pleasurable but suddenly they're with somebody

whose orbit is running and the energy starts to move. How does that feel on a tangible level to somebody? I would say like if someone's penetrating you just physically, you'll feel the heat and the friction.

which could be very arousing but if you if they're sending love up through you to your heart you can go you can really feel like it an energy blast going up to your heart that opens your heart into love that's beyond a physical thing love is not physical in that sense it's spiritual yeah so therefore

lovemaking can go from being just a physical act into generating love, a feeling of love. So the energy you're talking about brings a feeling of love for the people who are having sex. So we can move it on to a spiritual level in that way. and if they have eye gazing as well and because the opening of the spirit and the soul is the eyes and so through eye connection it's also opening into the heart and so you have from two directions going and moving into the heart from the eyes

And also the sexual energy rising up and warming up from below. Right. So it brings a lot of a different sense of connection, would you say? Yes. I would say more intimate connection. That can be more long-lasting.

than just love making and then one turns over and sleeps and then the other turns over and sleeps but you have this continuum of energy that can flow through the night even through the dreams and you wake up with that feeling of deep connection so on the subject of longer lasting one thing that's

commonly known about the daoist practices the daoist sexual arts is that men tend not to ejaculate and people can have what's called the multi-orgasmic experience so can you explain a little bit about how that's connected with this so if a man is trained on his own in single cultivation and arouses himself before the point of no return which is ejaculation he with his mind and intention he pulls the energy in and up

rather than shooting it out, down and out. It moves in opposite direction, in and up, up through the spine or up to the heart, wherever he's directing it with his intention. And that... moves the energy so there's less loss of chi from down below. So even if he moves the energy a lot before he ejaculates, he absorbs that refined orgasmic energy to rejuvenate himself. but you can also then exchange it with a partner. Right, so...

A man might still ejaculate, but he can transform energy beforehand. Yeah, so he'd lose way less jing or sexual essence. So he won't get as tired. If he's recycled it, refined it, absorbed it, and exchanged it. So that will stop him feeling tired after lovemaking. Yes. And... So he can choose whether he pulls it to his heart or up his spine. Up to his brain. Up to his brain. What would happen in the brain? The brain, it nourishes the mental spiritual power.

in the brain. So it creates more concentration, more presence, more wakefulness. It goes up to the brain. So... Now we're starting to get towards one of the topics that's of big interest to me, which is what is a spiritual experience and how can sex be a part of creating a spiritual experience?

I would say spiritual experience is one where you feel a deep connection of love and that you have something that's super sensible. That's something that's beyond words or could be described as something physical. and energy is one of those things that's invisible and it also has a long lasting kind of overtone so if you have a spiritual experience in sex you feel full and fulfilled for many days afterwards. And it's like a soul nourishment that goes beyond a physical nourishment. Sounds...

Very exciting. So let's talk a little more practically because I know a lot of people think a spiritual experience is something that just happens accidentally and it's very out there and you know. lots of stories of people suddenly having a spiritual experience struck by lightning but what you're talking about is actually using sex and your sexual energy to facilitate having an experience like this. So I think it would be interesting for people listening to hear a little bit about...

what the practices themselves might look like. What are these practices? What is somebody doing to prepare for this? Well, for a woman, it would be more breast massage because the breasts are the windows of female orgasm. And also the breasts are between the heart, like there's a sunrise in the heart of love that will spread into the breasts when the breasts are massaged. And so that love that you bring down to the yoni or the sexual organs and...

And then you can massage the sexual organs as well. Use a jade egg practice where you have a crystal inside where you help move the energy by squeezing and releasing and moving. that sexual energy throughout your body. And that's the way you can tune up your own instrument. So you're already warm.

If you do these practices. So these are physical practices, but they move energy. So they have an energetic effect. So you don't have to wait for something woo-woo to happen. That's right. And so foreplay is not such a big deal. to warm up the water, which is the feminine energy. Masculine is more fire, so it might take a longer time if that water is like ice.

But through breast massage, J-Day practice, the water is already warm. And so the partners can then ride the waves of bliss, gastric energy together, rather than one does their... has their peak experience, and then the other has their peak experience. But you can ride these beautiful warm waves, moving the orgasmic energy to different places, different chakras, different experiences.

So a woman, I just want to highlight this point, I think it's great, that a woman... doesn't have to be dependent upon the skills of her partner even though we love skilled men she's not dependent on his foreplay skill because if she's done some breast massage and jade egg and her own practices then and then she's

already warmed up which is and for the man it's very important for him also to massage his lingam or his jake stock the dows with collar penis and testicles to also move the energy and the circulation of blood And when there's good blood flow, then there's good erection as well. And able to move that blood into the rest of the body as well after. If he does ejaculate, it doesn't stagnate.

He's able to move that consciously, that energy. So he can alleviate blue balls with some massage? Yes, he can. Through massage and pulling and tugging and tapping. And it's always good as a daily practice, like brushing your teeth. yeah so you're not talking about like arousal massage like masturbation you're talking about more of a kind of practice where you're moving energy and stagnation and getting sensation and consciousness

into the physical body. Yeah, bringing awareness to the sexual organs, rather than suddenly expecting them to play. You know, you need to tune your instrument, make sure it's nice and tuned, then you can play together.

And so what would a man do on his own? Because presumably, like in the middle of lovemaking, it can be overwhelming. And before he knows it, he's ejaculated sometimes, even beforehand. So what can... what can a man do for his own practices be really centered so breathing into his core working a lot with

bringing energy into his core and centering practices because when he's really centered he can be really present for himself his own energy and also be present for his partner he won't be overwhelmed by sensation Because he knows his own energy, he's a master of his own energy. That means he's master of his breath as well. His breath. Yeah, when the breath gets too excited, it's going to go boom, boom, boom, boom, and pound on the prostate.

yeah ejaculate but if he slows his breathing down the breath moving it into the spine you know he becomes a master of that energy and very wonderful force partnership as well because then you can have a longer lovemaking and more chance for multi-agastic experiences. Right. I hope all the guys have heard that. So they would do practice therefore on their own as you say, tuning their instrument.

with a Tao instructor to learn these practices and that way they're prepared that when they go into lovemaking instead of just the usual kind of pounding and ejaculating they can they can last for longer and move the energy as they choose. And Qigong, of course, is very empowered for that, for building the core strength. You have lots of breath power in the core and bone breathing.

And tell us what bone breathing is. Bone breathing is where you draw sexual energy into the bones and the bone marrow. And that's stored like a reserve of sexual energy in the bone marrow. That's how you create your blood. Red and white blood cells are produced in the bone marrow. So it's healthy and it gives you more sex drive, more sexual stamina. I always say bone breathing gives you good boner. Yeah. That's great. There's so many medicines that people are trying to take, you know, to...

To stay hard, but actually these ancient tools are really healthy, natural ways to have better stamina and longer lasting. Very good. And they're standing practices, so you have to be really aware. of your posture and your alignment with heaven and earth and your breath. They're very holistic practices. Iron Shirt Chigong builds your Iron Shirt. So a good Qigong practice, which is like the Taoist form of practice like yoga, even if it's not directly sexual practice, it will all help.

with your sexuality right because the energy awareness and all the channels able to hold the energy and channel it yeah because it's powerful energy yeah right so this is a big thing isn't it about being able to hold the energy rather than just releasing it all out So we want to build stamina and power and capacity for holding and moving energy.

So let's talk a little bit about harmonious exchange, which is a term that you use for how two partners can have an energetic experience together, right? This is something I particularly love. It's like... playing music together. So two instruments come together and can play music. And there are so many different types of harmonious exchange, aren't there? Do you want to just explain a little bit about what that is? Yeah, I mean, one is just breathing together.

could be back to back could be laying back to back or sitting back to back and then you tune into each other's breathing and start to entrain so you become like one big lung or one big heart you have this feeling of oneness when you breathe together And that creates a lot of unity and connection. Right. So one way to just tune in and feel connected and presume to get the energy flowing together is to tune in your breath together.

So it's a good daily practice. Obviously, if you're back to back, you wouldn't be making love. Unless you're very flexible. But that would be a practice before. Yeah, warm up. Warms up your spine. Unless there's something you haven't explained to us. And then they're facing each other. And this could be standing or sitting or sitting on the bed.

holding hands and eye gazing and then breathing through the different centers. So the belly center is called the lower Don Chen or an elixir field of willpower. And then breathing back and forth between that willpower builds power between your relationship. And you can clear some of the power gains as well with that because you harmonize with the breath. Wonderful. Or you can breathe back and forth through your heart, so creating a field of breath. And you can make sounds with your mouth.

mouth open so you're exchanging love in that field of the chest and how it feels different does it for somebody if they're breathing say belly to belly or heart to heart what's the difference for the couple The heart-to-heart is very warm and has a feeling that love is being multiplied. So literally someone can, a couple can say, let's make more love and they can breathe.

using their intention through the heart and feel more loving yeah isn't that great you know so many couples going for psychotherapy and you know just not feeling loving anymore but with intention and breath an experience of love can be created and there's a nice even exchange of inhale and exhale so i'm inhaling your breath And you're inhaling my breath. So there's an even giving and taking in your relationship just through the breathing.

and of course the breath is so often connected to the spirit or the soul inspiration and in some languages um in hebrew i believe the word for soul and breath are connected yeah so when you're exchanging breath you're also creating like a soul to soul connection spiritual connection wonderful you can also breathe through the third eye as well uh-huh touching your third eye or just feeling a breath or a wind

going from your head back and forth. And how does that feel? For me, it feels like clearing cobwebs and kind of limitations of thoughts, you know, thoughts about yourself and your performance. Yeah.

a judgment around the other person you just feel like a breeze going through your head clearing and emptying so that's good because a lot of people um in lovemaking they actually can't enjoy it when they're thinking too much so that might be a good practice at the beginning of lovemaking presumably for a couple who find it hard to let go.

Amazing. So that's some harmonious exchange. Is that it? There's others where you're using what's called the core chow or tai chi pole that runs from the head to the perineum. And they can create a rainbow light from your crown to the other person's crown and sending light energy down through the core of their body, which connects all the chakras. And it's like a blessing. You're blessing each other. with light beautiful and it's very honoring and adoring yeah almost like devotional yeah

Who doesn't want to be adored? Yeah. You know, in a relationship. Definitely want that. So that will also bring a kind of spiritual quality because it's like being worshipped by one another. Yes. Amazing. And then there's microcosmic orbit. So one person's running the orbit, and the other person's running the orbit. But you can move it like an infinity symbol between you through your centers. Like if you're inhaling up my spine, and then you're inhaling up your spine.

We link the energy in loops. And what I like about that one is that the infinity, the middle, is here between our hearts, right? So we're actually building the relationship entity or the field of the relationship by running our energy. So that's really beautiful because many people just think of the relationship as the two people, but it's actually also, there's an energy field around it so we can nourish and build that. And if there's been clashes between people.

You can actually sew it together. It's like sewing with love, you know, where there's been wounds and tears and so on. Yeah. And sew it back together. You can heal it. Because, yeah, the Taoists believe, don't they, that a lot of emotional upset is blocked energy. So if we're getting it flowing... we can actually heal blockages and things that have become stuck in the relationship. So we can use lovemaking and practices.

as a way to heal things other than psychotherapy and you could be talking and talking talking

This is beyond the talk and beyond words. Yeah. Go right to the energy. Yeah, yeah. It sounds more fun. Great. spiritual experience um so you've explained how we can move from a physical experience into the energy body and how we can generate more love which is a spiritual experience you mentioned something about bringing energy in towards the head and the and the glands and can we talk a little bit about third eye and crown and what happens a little bit more about the mystical

Sign of it all. If you have like a third eye kiss, sometimes you'll feel light beams like sparkling between your third eyes. And your crown might open and then feel a connection of you. And your loved one making love above you. I mean, I've had several experiences like that. Yeah. And that's more in your astral body, your energy body, you're making love. That's beyond the physicals because you feel it here. Yeah.

And then when that energy is harmonized and unified, then you feel it coming back down and filling you with this bliss after loving. So you're having feelings of bliss and presumably connecting to your higher self. That's right.

like your true nature or so it can actually help with your own personal growth to be doing this kind of love making yes so this is very exciting may happen in meditation then afterwards if you've had experience of that with your lover and then you sit in meditation and you feel this beautiful pulsating loving vibration above you you bring it back in again

like a satellite dish to spirit that you've created together. And so when you're apart from your partner, like right now your partner's in Canada and you're right here in Bali, can you connect, can you still make love? you can still make love what's called remote sex or astral sex you can still feel the connection and breathe their vibration uh-huh through your body and you feel almost like

lovemaking, physically lovemaking, but it's very arousing and fulfilling. So it gives you still a feeling of connection even when you can't be together. Or over Skype. We often breathe together. And just have eye gazing. exchanging breath over Skype so it's not physical at all but the soul is getting that connection and energy I feel full and I feel enlivened

After that. So this enlivening, I think, is a wonderful part around Taoism. You mentioned earlier that if your energy is heavy and you start these practices, you start to feel lighter and enlivened and more love, you know, kind of qualities. that everybody wants so therefore your love making isn't just about pleasure it's also about transforming

your whole experience beyond lovemaking, is that right? Yes. So how does somebody feel over time if they're doing this kind of lovemaking and these kind of practices? Over time you feel you're rejuvenated.

that connection makes you feel kind of full of vitality and an overflow of vitality so you feel you can be kind and generous with your energy if you always feel like scarcity of my energy then you get more contracted and closed and so when your heart opens the energy is overflowing then you can be kind and loving and it's easy to be kind more love to share so if everybody in the world was doing these practices making love in this kind of a way we would live in a more kind and loving world yes

Well, there's something to really think about. And then the children born out of it, too, are born out of love. Yeah. Right. Very strong energy field, so that's strong immune system as well. So if you choose to ejaculate to create children after doing these practices, you can actually create on another level than you would without these practices.

conscious creation it's very exciting things to think about so just to close I'd love it if you could share a little of your one of your experiences Just remember now of a spiritual experience that you had during lovemaking. Is there something you can think of to describe how that felt for you? Okay. I'm recalling a time in nature. And so it's just the sound of water and the smell of moss and trees. And so the nature energy made me feel so relaxed. And the warmth of the sun.

And our skins were worn by the sun. And so I felt part of nature, and he felt part of nature. And then penetration seemed to go... ways with the breath where there's no effort it's like the universe we're moving through us and it kept coming and it's effortless and has this grace about it and then And then the sounds we'd make get higher and higher too. Yeah. And feel it then bubble out my crown into beautiful aura.

Did all the flowers blossom around you at that moment? I guess so. The fairies came out. I'm sure they did. The water had sparkles of light in it. The universe was happy. And lots of waves and swirls too that were... Beyond the physical just feel that swirling around us and making almost like a cocoon of light Beautiful and then relaxing in the moss In nature, you just felt like you're really one with nature. Yeah.

Wonderful. Well, that's something really inspiring to leave people with, to encourage them to go and seek out some of these practices. So for a little how-to, you have a book. For women, right? Yes, Dove Tentric Arts for Women. There we go.

available hopefully in your local bookstores or amazon so if you're a woman and you want to start these practices or maybe you want to give that to your partner that's a way to get going and um and there's about energy exchange as well okay so there's also something for couples so that's that's great i will put some links alongside this for people to find thank you lovely too and then there's our training which is awesome well yeah training.

one of the most comprehensive trainings for women in these practices so yeah lots of experience with the jading and breast massage for sure definitely thank you so much for sharing your wonderful wisdom thank you so much Shashi awesome And enjoy your practice if you start practicing. I'm sure they all will now.