¶ Introduction
So this week, I've got Scott and actually Scott, I didn't actually check how I pronounce your surname tweet. Right. Tweedale right. Okay, thank you. Because kind of we've we've talked online, we've never spoken before, until we've just kind of had a few minutes chatting before I've hit record. And we kind of got talking a few weeks ago, maybe a couple of months ago now about theory lessons and different types of
lessons. So I got Scott to come on the podcast is going to talk about what he does in his school. So I'm going to hand over to Scott and you can introduce yourself, say where you are, what you are, what you do, and as much or as little as you'd want over to
Hi, so I'm Scott tweeddale. I'm our head of department oh and state school in Harpenden. And I also do a bit of subject tutoring at the University of Hartford sure, as well.
So when you say subject tutoring? What do you mean?
So I'm involved in the sort of schools direct PGCE for design and technology and I pretty much just do all the subject pedagogy and subject knowledge announcements or stuff there.
Okay, how many students have you got going through at the moment? I've curiosa? We've
got serve seven, Nish seven this year, with six last year and then eight the year before?
Okay, so it's gonna be reasonably healthy numbers. I'm kind of pulling a face because I'm thinking, you know, 12 years ago, when I started at Trent, we would have fought in a group but it's just, it's just plummeted, isn't it nationally, and not just in TNT? So yeah, yeah, I was I was kind
¶ Scott's school context
of thought I was down at the University of Hertfordshire back in January, reviewing their master's programme. Okay. So yeah, talk about a tour around the campus. So. So how long have you been at the school? Your app?
I've been there since 2016. So just coming up for seven years.
And how big department,
there's six of us, two technicians.
So I can have a good and a good and healthy size. And you go from 11 to 18. Yeah,
so whether you're seven to 13. We we've got about three or four groups for GCSE design and technology. And we've got quite good cohort sizes for a level as well. So we take anywhere between about 11 to 16. Kids, you're on your for that.
Nice, nice. And you're saying also you've got you've got a boarding provision as well, you're in one of these
state boarding provision, so about 10% of the kids per 130. Thompson 40, our borders across you 713.
crack up. Well, that gives an indication about the size of the school if that's if that's 10%. Yeah, when I was looking cased, I think I was saying the grammar school in the town where I taught, had had boarding. So yeah, it's not it's not it is unusual, but I was accounted for didn't magically state boarding. But yeah, there's, there's a need. There's a need for this. So we got talking on social media about theory, lessons and practical.
So I'm going to start by just handing over to you and letting you share your opinion. But if you've listened to the podcast, you know that I'll dive in at different points and ask your questions. So go and let us know what you think about theory.
So I'm a really big believer that theory lessons don't always just, you know, and shouldn't necessarily always be a PowerPoint and a chalk and talk experience. And kind of one of the things I'm really interested in is how are you, particularly looking at practical lessons as well. And for us being a really practical subject is how we can bring that sort of practical side to bring
theory to life, so to speak. So I tried and a lot, my team are really good with this as well, where we can we teach as much of that kind of theoretical side of our subject and a really practical way, just to try and bring it to life and make it make more sense to the students
It's going to give you an example of something that you might have done this week or last week.
So you know, we've done so we're like are you attend, we've been looking at sort of redistribution methods. So we're really lucky in the fact we still use like art, we've got the cosine Casta flame
fire sand casting unit. So we've been kind of hammering it a lot like the sort of sand casting and then linking that to things like investment casting and die casting, for example, and what a lot of you attends, and in particular, some of the year twelves as well so because they've been through that, you know, sort of basic sand casting process themselves having design patterns and done the castings with you know, the staff and the school, when they've then gone to look at more industrial
methods that that link back to them has made those industrial methods make a lot more sense to them.
By Okay, so they can kind of see because they've done it and experienced it is that kind of exact kind of way.
¶ What do you see as theory and design and technology?
Yeah. So, so so when you talk about a theory lesson, then what I mean what do you what do you see as Theory and Design and Technology
I think some of the kind of word, it might be easy to think this might come down and teach a subject knowledge more than anything. But, you know, I think it can be quite easy to teach things like mechanisms with, you know, pictures and diagrams, but actually getting kids to make some mechanisms is, it's time well spent, I think in terms of developing resources, and developing pedagogy to bring mechanisms and movement and
things like that to life. So, you know, we've got kind of crumbles, we've designed that I've got lots of different mechanisms that kids can pick and choose from, and kind of understand how they work and how they can programme them, for example, the same things with like gears and gear ratios, you know, we've got lots of things like that, that we do with our students that just allows them to see, rather than seeing a picture on a board, they can physically touch it, manipulate
it, change it. Same with materials, when we've done, John mainly making tasks, it's, you know, for me, it's not about necessarily what they make, or the kind of generic object that you might spend one lesson or five lessons or whatever your plan making with them. It's the, you know, the working properties of materials, like learning manufacturing processes, and, you know, whether that wider sort of subject knowledge or picture sets for them.
So, so, I guess I'm gonna kind of reel back a little bit, then to your to your casting example, as a non theory theory lesson. So could you say you did this with your tank?
Yeah, we've done it with your team, we've done it with your 12 before. So it just depends on your group.
So you've just you've just done it with your talent. So can you kind of talk me through you kind of planning and you're thinking about the lesson, what you want them to learn? What, what, where it fits in their big picture about design and technology and their development? And then what you're going to do in the lesson, what the pedagogy is, and what the learning is, does that make sense? Yeah, I mean, I'm really, really taxing your brain.
I mean, the learning was looking at, like, we were actually, that kind of casting came in, because we were looking at sort of our sorry, say, product lifecycle, and particularly looking at some sustainability issues. And we were looking at plastics. And we were looking at sort of how you
can sort of recycle reuse. And then we've gotten a chat about redistribution, and we started talking about, you know, how we can redistribute metals and gets, we're really interested in part of the kind of ways we could do that within school. And I was talking about the sand casting, and we're doing a sort of like, kind of lighting project, looking at how we, like recycle, reuse, and sort of added in the redistribution part
for them. So part of what they were doing was a kind of user centred approach, a user centred design task, where they were sort of tasked to design and make a lighting based project for a particular user group, just using those three methods. So did a bit of HDPE recycling and things like that as part of it, but they got quite into the
redistribution. And that's where we sort of put that kind of focus on for them was looking at kind of how they create the patterns, you know, rules of draft angles, key words of tools. And actually, even for some of them were, some of their castings weren't very good, but actually, they then learn quite a lot about that, that process, and some of the flaws with it, for example, became quite up, I suppose quite prominent for them, because, again, they could
see where they'd failed. And given it, given it being a redistributed process, they could do it again, because we had a bit of time. So, you know, they were sort of learning, I suppose iterative as the words were after, really, they were kind of failing and learning and making it better so to speak.
¶ What is the process you’ve gone through in terms of planning and what is the intention?
So so then we kind of just kind of want to unpick it so people who are listening can kind of think about the process that you've gone through in terms of planning and what what what the intention is. So the context was a design and may have a learning project. And but you as a teacher has kind of set up these parameters of these three kind of process specs about recycle, reuse, and
redistribution. So they kind of so that meant that you were as the teacher setting up this parameter around what materials and what process Yeah, to use, is that right? Absolutely.
Yeah. And we done we did at the start of it, like we did look into those processes as well. So they had time to kind of do like, like different parts of it and learn how they can manipulate it in sort of three sort of mainly making tasks and then think a little bit about how they can apply it and in a different context to sort of assess that design capability capability.
So can you tell me a little bit about those three mainly making tasks
so we did we did a little bit on the bag, press our to do a bit of like kind of for wood bending stuff with the Euro apply, for example. So we're looking at strengthening and stiffening those sort of materials, we've done a bit of HDPE recycling, with the Panini presses and looked at how we can sort of reshape and reuse. And we did a bit about press forming as part of that. So they looked at kind
of mould design as well. And then we did one lesson on like the sand casting and looking at how we can redistribute metals as part of that as well. So they were looking at sort of three individual processes, and again, thinking a bit about how they can use that and the design of our different product.
So so those that that learning was done in quite a structured way that they were involved in making, so they did some practical activity in those Okay, so, so some people might say that, that that was kind of like the theory, the knowledge that you were teaching the kind of conceptual and the procedural knowledge, because you were talking, you talked earlier about draft angles, and, and such, and pressing and forming, and then you've got the process
of their learning. So over a series of lessons, they were introduced to these three different processes. So they learned the processes and learn how they could be used to learn the limitations, but they learnt that through probably what a demonstration from you, but also, then then yeah, but at demonstrating it through trial and error.
So demonstration from me in terms of like sort of how to work with it, and then time for them to get hands on and experience that themselves. So particularly when those kind of you know, there were quite short one, let you know, an hour long lesson. So even if they if they'd managed something that didn't necessarily quite work, they had some time to reflect and think a bit about how they would improve things or do it again,
differently. So, you know, I think that, you know, the idea that they have to come up with something perfect every times doesn't always necessarily have to apply if what they're learning about is, you know, the sort of the kind of the theory and the knowledge and they've got another maybe another chance to apply it and learn from that first experience.
¶ What is the difference between theory and knowledge?
Right? So I'm curious to pick you up there, because you said theory and
knowledge. I mean, I'm kind of I'm kind of being really pedantic here, because they're kind of like, the theory is a classification of the knowledge that we teach, you know, in terms of, its kind of in what what the, what the children do with it, I think maybe is, is kind of what what, what you're what you're giving them to do when they're in when they're experimenting for want of a better word, they're, they're kind of getting that that sense of what the materials feel like,
the process of kind of going through the price as well. So their bodies go through the process. So then that kind of does does help them. Help them
remember. So, so so to me, what you're doing there is that's the theory, the theory lesson, for not wanting to do the theory lesson, you're teaching them that procedural conceptual knowledge, that stuff, yeah, that then when they are working in that design context of designing a light that has to reflect one or two or three of these criteria, reuse, recycle, redistribute, that meets a
particular user's need. They've they've had the opportunity to learn, and then see how it can work or not work and what it can fail with them, I suppose, because the whole group of doing that they can learn from each other's sort of failures and success or time
for pure assessment, self assessment, as well as part of that discussions and kind of wider implications of, you know, materials and properties and manufacturing methods as well. Yeah.
Okay, okay. So, again, I'm just thinking about people listening, I'm thinking, so what's kind of really key here is in your planning around the children learning this knowledge around, what we might define, you know, of definitions might be recycle, reuse, redistribute, you're then taking that a stage further and saying, Well, here's three processes that that kind of relate to those three categories. And then we're going to do those three
processes. And then by the way, I'm also going to introduce you to some of those the steps, the process, but some of the other knowledge you need around the materials, the forming the shaping the limitations around that, and then you're going to do that. So you can see that in practice, and then we're going to set your design context where you're expected to draw on that knowledge. Yes, to develop a light. Yeah, it meets one or two or three of the criteria with all with one of these processes.
That's
right. I mean, the light, I mean, lighting is just a kind of context that we used for it and that does, you know, as long as Have irrelevant in terms of you could probably do with other contexts, for example.
Yeah, okay, so So then so then when they're doing the lighting project, that's where you're getting them to think about that they're drawing on that knowledge. And they're putting it together in a, in a way we're not, we're not videoing this, and I'm kind of waving my hands around isn't doing a jigsaw puzzle, right? So I'm trying to do it's got it.
¶ The importance of making in design and technology in schools
It's for me, it's kind of it's building on all those bodies of knowledge that you teach them out from like your seven, eight, and nine and 10. So that was different years, where you think you think a bit about your curriculum sequence and where you do certain processes or kind of theory, not theory lessons, then so that they've got, you know, ways to sort of retrieve that knowledge and think about how
they can apply it. So, you know, we, you know, we have the making parts, that, you know, they could be casting, and then turning or milling, for example, to think a bit about how they shape it, or, or manufacture it, for example, and the things we teach them as part of the year eight, year nine. So, you know, we don't limit them necessarily in terms of those things, but kind of build on and build on and build on.
Okay, yeah, I mean, the reason I've gotten kind of drilled down into that, Scott, because we'll be some people listening, who are early career teachers who won't necessarily think about in terms of your level of sophistication, because of your experience as a teacher, about putting those those pieces together, that kind of thing. Like I could do that.
And the thing about the pedagogy, what, what they do as the teacher rather than necessarily what the children are learning and developing in terms of growing in design and technology, does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. So it's interesting kind of them here about how you talk about talk about year seven. We also kind of touched before we were talking when we're talking on social media about the importance of making in design and technology. So let's hear your viewpoint on that one.
Yeah, I mean, for me making is, is a really big part of the subject. And, you know, my own school experience, and, you know, other pro design degree, you know, we did lots of making, we did lots of digital fabrication and new
technology sort of stuff. But, you know, we always kind of, were encouraged to make things and even as a PGCE student, we were encouraged to go and make, you know, we were always told, Go into the, you know, spend time with the technicians and go and make all the little projects and things like that. And I think for me, the making is a really important part of our subject, because I think our
kids learn an awful lot. From you know, they learn a lot from making and, you know, from a lot of the reading and kind of research I've read about Gen Y we still make and design and technology, there's a lot of it that I really agree with it, I think often gets overlooked in schools, you know, that there's, there's a, there's a very nice therapeutic well being activity associated with, with making for
some kids. And, you know, not to kind of stereotype your, your math, your English and your, you know, histories and geographies.
But you often think when I walk around schools, you know, if the SAT with textbooks, for example, then that's, you know, five periods a day is being an insane technology environment where you might be making one lesson, you might be doing CAD, or you might be doing something, you know, disassemble a disassembly, or whatever, you know, it's a very different environment to learn
in. And I think for a lot of kids the the value, I think kids value, the practical side of things just as much as the value, the CAD and designing, for example. I don't necessarily believe that all kids should take stuff home, for example, like, there's some things I think, are worthwhile kids
taking home. And again, if some of them are things that they're going to learn from, rather than take home and it gets built on a shelf, then I think that's equally as valuable from a practical side and a making side
as taking it home. So yeah, I'm, uh, yeah, I'm a big, a big believer in a very much encouraged the staff, that's where I want to, you know, get themselves in the workshops, and, you know, sort of tinker and learn and develop and have that, I suppose, it's kind of for staff that I work with, who are someone who is experienced as me, I've got a few who are more experienced, and some that are less experienced, it's that time to really develop their own
subject knowledge. You know, I suppose I'm trying to say it's an investment in teachers time to tinker and make stuff in workshops. I know it's difficult when you've got the demands of marking and, you know, moderation and performance appraisals and other things that you do as a teacher, but there's something about being in a workshop for an hour and thinking a bit about, you know, what, and linking it back to what are those, you know, why am
I doing this? No, and what are my kids learning from doing that? And that, that, that that's a really important part of, of making as far as I'm concerned as well.
¶ The importance of making explicit the decisions you make while you’re teaching
Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, there were you were just talking about teachers kind of, you know, tinkering and doing it and reflecting while they're doing it is the absolute key thing, because I mean, I've seen many lessons where, and I've done it myself when I was when I was teaching, you know, I do something and you kind of actually forget all the decisions that you've made, yes,
that's led up to that point. And then and then you kind of get get look at the children when again, anything up because I've not made it explicit. Or I've not even thought to myself when I was doing it, what are all the little decisions or the bits of knowledge that I'm piecing together because of my
experience? To do that, and I think that time in, in a design studio, in a workshop, wherever it might be, whatever the space might be, in designing technology, where teachers are actually doing it and reflecting while they're doing it, what are the bits that they need to know? What are the bits they do know? What are the decisions that I'm making that they don't have to make, is, is a really key passing, that's
a really good point. Because I know that, you know, when we talk about pedagogy, and we talk about, you know, modelling to students and to learners, and you know, you're trying to model, you know, how you think about your model, how you approach design ideas, for example. And when you model and demonstrate Saudi is probably a better words, how you, you know, are using a particular manufacturing process, there's a lot of decisions that you say that you
have to make. And it's really interesting when you're doing that with students, and you're showing them something and, you know, having that time to having done it once before, to think about all those decisions and the questions you might ask students and learners as you do it, as you know, as a real, there's lots of kind of cognitive. I don't know if cognitive is the right word,
sorry. But there's a lot of like, I don't want to say visual, visual cognitive skill, but it's kind of almost like you can feel it, you can see it yourself, because you've experienced it. And you're sort of pointing out parts that go right and parts that go wrong. And like you say, there's a lot of decisions you make that we take for granted because of experience that you've got to make really explicit to students. And
we might call it tacit knowledge, that we just know, because we've done it, you know, we kind of can't, we can't articulate it. And that that is a challenge. And I do think, I do think we need to do more of that and design technology. And it is hard for teachers to do to just say, to find that headspace so that you can work out when you're teaching I mean, on the fashionable things around cognitive load, isn't it? So if you're teaching something to your sevens, how much do they
need to know? Yeah, you know, and that you're then build on in year eight and year nine? And have you thought about as a teacher? What, what they do need to know what, they don't need to know if that makes sense. Yes. And that's kind of quite a skill to do that. But I think that's that, that to me is really, really important. I think it
is. And it, I think it comes down to having that experience of, you know, running practical sessions, how much the school's value making, and you know, as a school, we value making an awful lot. And so if we've got that experience, and, you know, my team are really great. They're really involved in kind of bigger curriculum conversation. So they are, generally they're very well versed. And if we have a discussion about teaching a particular topic, then they will think, right, well, why do we
want to teach this here? What have they done before that builds on this or, you know, enhances what they've done before or deepens what they've done? So, you know, there's a lot that you're right, is a really, it's a, it's a difficult skill? It's a really important one. And one, I think, you know, it comes down to sports experience, and how much curriculum conversation you're having to boot that sequencing and correctly.
Yeah, you're right, you know, is having those
¶ Teaching practical skills to students in schools where there is no D&T teacher
conversations. I mean, I do feel for colleagues who are teaching in schools where there might be the only DNP teacher.
Yeah, and that must be, that must be really hard. And I don't know how much time for those colleagues, or they get to go to other schools or call the, you know, other schools or other departments.
Yeah, yeah. Having those professional conversations about, about processes and what we're teaching we're in. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, one of the arguments for theory lessons and not having some of practicals. If you look at the GCSE content, there's, there's
masses of it. Yeah. But I think, I think again, that's the skill of a, of a subject teacher to kind of look and go, Well, how do I how do I group that in different ways that isn't necessarily the way it's grouped in the spec, but it's grouped in a way that may well help children make connections with things that they they already know if that makes sense. Yeah,
absolutely. I gather, there's an element of teacher time, teacher subject knowledge and thinking about how
you break that down. And you know, that, you know, I've had colleagues teach injection moulding with little laser cut boards and a glue gun before to highlight that to students, you know, and I often think if those were those wills, there's ways forward with that kind of heavy theoretical side that perhaps limits that kind of chalk and talk the PowerPoint and bring some of it to life, you know, you can always teach, you can always teach equilibrium with our, you know, piece of paint on
a log, for example, then set balancing skills.
Yeah, and going back to your example about, you know, a glue gun for injection moulding. That's how that's how we taught it to our students, teachers, you know, because it was realistic, it was immediate, you know, okay, we can do the whole thing with the Archimedes screw. And, yes, it's been there, but we'll see instantly. But the basic, the basic essence of it is, is that it starts it starts solid, it gets heated up, it becomes more molten, and it can be injected into shape.
That's it. And there's a sprue. to that. I mean, that's take them all down, and it comes out. That's the basic essence. So let's not make it I mean, I did I made it more complicated, but you know, yeah, that's the beauty of that TP stuff that used to be around around the glue guns and everything with the cutter, glue sticks, the word glue sticks, but yeah, you know, all of that you just think this is making it accessible? Because that's what do they need to know how much they really
need to know? Absolutely. These know about mould and mould can come apart, you know that it's smooth. Well, that applies for casting advice with jelly it applies for, you know, all sorts of different Yes, I think that's where the that's where you teach the got to kind of make those make those connections. But yeah, right. Anyway, well, you've got, you've got my brain thinking, I'm sure you've got people listening, thinking, as well. It's been Yeah, it's been good to kind of have that
conversation. Maybe I didn't really put you on the spot there. Because I didn't prep you for all of this. I was going to ask you in detail about about a lesson. But it makes it more real for people who are listening who are trying to think about their practice. So thanks so much. Thank you for having me on. And that's all right. And if you've got some links to anything that you can kind of show us that'd be brilliant. We could put that in
the show notes. And we'll put contact details how people can find you on social media as well in the show notes, but thanks ever so much, Scott. That was good. You've got my brain thinking late on an evening during the school.
Thanks so much. Thank you