Talkin' Cowboys: Most Invaluable Player?

corner of Vineyard Inventura in Oxnard, California. Yeah. Yes, And this is Talking Cowboys and I am Bill Jones with Rob Phillips. Brian brought us in Mickey Spagnola And are you ready for some football? Yeah? Ready, ready? Yeah. I feel like though that uh, you know, you're kind of been watching been watching FL Network. I don't know what

the other guys. But then you got those you got those teams that are already getting ready, the Bears and the and the Ravens, and they've been practicing now for like a week, and you're kind of Hall of Fame game exactly. Yeah, so you're sitting here kind of going, Okay, it's uh, we're up next. But yeah, the fact that they we got here, they got through the conditioning run and now you have your first practice. So yes, I'm ready for we get to see a walkthrough, that's right.

We're we're actually what are we an hour and a half away from the walkthrough here? Then we get to watch a minicamp practice, that's right. So still a couple of days before we see what qualifies is some rather real football. Yeah, the pad's coming on, but it's something. It's an extensions. It feels like forever since we did We did one show together and then we were off for a month, and now we get to see some football.

Pretty good. Yeah, I think the thing that the thing that we can get from these walkthroughs, since we're guys lining up, you know, and you get a little bit of idea. They'll run through some plays that they'll run in the afternoon, and so maybe you'll see a little bit different some formations, sayah, where's Cole Beasley gonna line up? Which Tavon Austin? You know, how they what are they thinking about these rookie guys? Is is Michael Gallup getting

work with the ones? I think there's things you can draw from the walkthrough practice, just because the coaches like to go through it, and it's kind of a way to say, Okay, this is what we're gonna do this afternoon. Boys, get ready for it here. Don't make your mistakes. Make them now, don't make them in the act. And the other thing that that I get out of it doing the preseason games. And by the way, I've already got my look at you get that you're ready for TV.

I spent my downtime, the vacation time here. It's just posterboard. Okay, all right, looks great. It's very post board. Yeah. So I'm constructing the roster and everything, and I've got my little notes that nobody can read, including me, but when

I write it down, it commits to memory. But to your point, especially as we go along in training camp, right, you watch the walkthrough, you watch where they're using people even on special teams, right, and that sort of stuff, and you can kind of see how the coaches are thinking about some of the players. Yeah, and I'll be even more important this year because they got so many things and moving parts and guys you're not sure of who's playing where, and so we'll get an idea of

what they're thinking going into practice. Right, absolutely, right, It jarred my memory of you guys like Bo Scarborough. You know what do they think. We kind of have an idea what both Scarborough might be in the running back rotation, but where is he going to fit on special teams? You know, if if the guys are gonna make this team, they're gonna have to do other things. And I think that's one of those guys that you want to keep an eye on because we all saw him at the

University of Alabama. I mean, you know, he's very capable of carrying the football. Is he capable enough of playing some special teams if he has to? You'll see where the coaches initially think about him out here. And again that's just one guy. And check out the wide receivers, how they're being exact, they're being used on the first unit exactly, punk coverage or whatever. Then you know that

they think highly of uh, that's right. Which also, by the way, we should point out in case everybody didn't see our last Talking Cowboys back at the Star welcoming Bill Jones back to Talking Cowboys fourteen years well, and this brings back memories. It was two thousand and four, I think right where we I was at, No, it was two thousand and five because my daughter was graduating from high school that year and I missed her move into college, which was one of the things I regret.

Because I was out here for the three weeks of training camp, and I remember you, Mickey and me interviewing Kevin Costner right here on this tennis court right here. He was a camp visitor, and we interviewed Kevin Costner here. He came out and through the football. Remember a Ventura native. I believe he's up the road. Yes, he's got a place. Uh, it's the town that starts. I think would have see Calabasas. Maybe it's up the road going towards between Ventura and

Santa Mark Carson. Now I got Calistoga on my mind. In Napa Valley. We digress by the way, though, I'm talking about a trip down memory lane. I've been here since Monday. I came out on Monday, and before the team arrived on Tuesday, we went over to Thousand Oaks and did a little story because obviously this is Jerry jones thirtieth training camp as owner of the Cowboys, and his first training camp was in nineteen eighty nine in

Thousand Oaks. A lot of people forget that that they were were that one year wrapping up their time in Thousand Oaks before going to Austin. And I know, Mickey, you've done a story in Thousand Oaks, yes, and been over there with Nate Newton by the way, brought them

down in Memory Lane and right. But one of the things that applies to this what's going on right now here in southern California, which no one in Dallas will understand because we've had this excessive heat warning for weeks in Dallas, but there is an excessive heat warning here, so that doesn't apply to Oxnard though, But you know, Sanford into Valley and including Thousand Oaks it was up over one hundred degrees the last couple of days. But

here we're talking a high of eighty degrees. Because we're closer to water. It feels more like Oxnard today, though, yes it does. You know, it's the sun's not bearing down on us. Not give it a couple hours though, well, And to Bill's point and what you talk about and the reason why your team does this, and we went through we've all been through the the witchitall falls, and the Austin's and the places like that where you know, this is just ideal for your team. They don't have

to survive practice here. You know, you want you want guys, you want everybody to be able to concentrate when you get in these these practices where it's excessive heat and you're just trying to make it and you're making mistakes and all. This this this environment gives young players a

chance to make this football team. That's really where this the weather it's is great because you don't want players just you know, it is about toughness to a point, but you want these kids to have the best opportunity to say, Okay, he's he's given us his best effort. This is what he can do. This is what he

can do. When you get situations like we were in which Tall falls Austin and then there were championship teams in Austin, but which Tall falls, I'll say it was it was just too much for grind, for the players to concentrate, and this just gives you the best environment

to do that. And even as opposed to practicing inside on turf, this grass is great, guys in terms of I mean, after a while practicing on turf for a month starts to feel like concrete when you get absolutely right and it's sixty seven degrees by the way, is that what it is? Yes? All right, But we haven't had to break out the jackets yet. Now we will at some point in the morning. I don't know if it'll be this week, maybe the forecast. Are we mining for gold back here or what we always do? Micky,

there's always distractions behind. You should know that at least there's not a fire over the rig. Jakie could never play. I mean, Nicky, you know you just build. I can tell you a professional. Just keep talking and they might be building the World trade somebody heard that. I'm sure our mikes picked it up. Which how much stuff do we we got? Ask blowers up? I mean, stuff happens best. They're getting the field ready for practice. The like alarm

going off during the press conference yesterday. There you go. Jerry fought through it, didn't he exactly? Well. It was funny about that, though, was the timing of when the alarm went off, because I think I think it was after the anthem question, when they were asking the anthem question and the answer on it, and it was like on Q okay, the alarm goes off yeah, I can almost tell you because I wrote it down alarm. I

did the same thing. But okay about the state of the Cowboys press conference yesterday, because I wasn't a part of the show yesterday, the combined show with leading up to the press conference got a little bit of new information. Now topping the list, I would say David Irving Jerry

Jones says he does not expect him in Oxnard at all. Yeah, that that to me was the most surprising, and I wanted to make sure I was off on the side on the one oh five three booth listening and I was hoping that someone would follow up with that question about are you saying that he's not going to be

here at all throughout the training camp? And I I was one of those guys that was very hopeful that he could have at least been here, that maybe everything in the off season, the OTAs, he would have put all that behind you. But obviously that's not the case at all. May Ben Todd Archer, who did ask about the Frisco portion, exactly. Yeah, it's up in the air

whether he'll be right. I think I think that's a I think that's big news because again, you know, the defensive line rotation, especially at tackle is thin right now. If you look at Malie Collins on the pup. It was thin when we were going through OTA's and mini camps as well. So how they will adjust when we see Coney Eli inside on some Nickels stuff, where we see Tyron Crawford inside on some Nickels stuff. But they're gonna have to find a way to kind of do

some things. Brian Price, those guys are gonna you know, uh jahad Ward H. Jones, those guys are gonna have to proba. We get a lot of reps in these practices. But for David just we talked about this pre show, just what does what does this mean for him as twenty eighteen years you know, because he's already gonna miss the first month. And I remember talking to him last year when he came back from a four game suspension and he said, this is like my training camp right now.

I'm trying to get back in shape and get back into football shape. But at least last year he had a baseline in training camp to at least be around the structure, be around practice, in the system. He's not gonna have any of that. I mean, that's well, yeah, because during the four game suspension he can't be involved at all. Right, that's it's Uh, this is a guy that when he's help he's getting distracted again. Well, Mick laughing,

I didn't say anything. This is a guy that when he is engaged and healthy, he can really help this football team. And and I don't know, Nicky, when if he's engaged with the show, he can really help the show too. And I'm gonna help it by saying they cannot anymore count on him coming back after a four game suspension. It's time to move on. And if you get anything out of him, it's gravy. But I don't think you can make plans anymore around David Irving. That's

well said. That might be. Yeah, that's kind of where I was going. I mean, can you expect that's a very early take the first you know, talking cowboys we have here from training camp. Because he's absolutely right, My approach was it too, is okay? Would you try and work things think about long terminal that no, you use him for twelve games and then you figured out you move on. Likely you either draft, develop, find some ways to go. But you've now shown that the good news

from yesterday was that to me. As as I'm disappointed David Irving not practicing here in ox Start, I am happy that the league did not block h Randy Gregory from practicing. That's where I was worried. I was worried about Randy Gregory not be like league says, wait wait wait, Now he misses four or five days in a training camp, he's behind already. Yeah. So now the league has allowed him to practice, and I think that it will be sooner than later, and that will be a good thing

at it. It'll be interesting to see when the Cowboys allow him to pray right, you know, I mean he didn't, but I think sooner and later. He didn't do the conditioning past like we talked about yesterday, a right show, and so they're gonna be very cautious on when they get him in shape and say, okay, it's time to practice, because I can't imagine on Saturday when the pads come on, he's gonna be out there with pads. They I'd be surprised, yeah, but they that's true. They were happy though from what

I've heard, with just the overall shape he's in. It's not football shape. Greg Townsend working with him here in LA the former Los Angeles Raider. Yeah, when they were able to get back in touch with him and they were pleased with where he's at. And weight wise is important too, and I think Jason was asked too forty two. Remember he had a lot of trouble keeping weight on when he was here before the suspension. Hopefully, hopefully with a you know, with his situation diet. I don't think

he'll ever be an overly strong guy. He's a long limbed, very linear built. He's got some leverage straight yeah. Yeah, he's he's more of a guy that doesn't give you a hitting surface. He's he's a dipper ripper kind of a you know, avoid kind of guy. As long as he has that kind of ability, he could always be a really good passer. So if they could put eight to ten pounds on him when the season starts again, maybe a better diet, a little bit of lifting, better

conditioning should be good to go. If he puts weight on, it'll be muscle, because he has hard time just putting weight on weight. That's like the rest of us. That's what I was. That's no, but that's what I sold, was that it's it's muscle mass that he's got. It's not bad weight in terms of whatever fact, he wasn't going to be overweight. Even when he was trying to put on weight, he couldn't put on weight. He's gonna win on the first step. That's that's where Randy Gregory

is gonna beat you. He's gonna beat you on that first step. And that's as long as he wins on the first step, it doesn't matter, doesn't matter if he's two forty two. But also you also you have a plan for him, and that plan he is a specialty pass rusher is what he is. Yeah. I said this yesterday on our show bill that I felt like that he's not guaranteed anything, And some people will probably disagree

with me on that. But I think there's gonna be a really good competition when it comes to the other defensive ends. I really do. I like what you know with Armstrong, with Coney eally with those guys. I think you know Charles Tapper. I just wish Charles Tapper could be healthy. I can't say that enough, because I think Charles Tapper has the ability to be a backup defensive end behind Crawford. Who I think is gonna start. Yeah,

but he's got that kind of ability. Bill, And you know him very well from the days in Oklahoma and following him and you know, playing as a five technique, he's he was always playing there. But he comes here and he just hasn't had the same run of health. He's got potential like Gregory in terms of first step and Ben on the edge, and I'm not directly comparing the two, but he's got that type of as But now going into his third years, he knows too, he knows it too. He's you know, he knows that he's

he's running out of days. He he can't he can't miss four or five six practices and expect to make this team. And he's one of those guys you pull for. You know, he had to go through with his mom last year and sick and then passed away. He's been taking care of his brothers in Frisco living with him and he's got just so much on his hands and he can have a heck of an NFL career, gotta stay healthy and he hasn't been able to do it.

David Helman with a nice story on Yeah, Sure was what Tapper has been dealing with and such a good guy too. But because of the uncertain status of a David Irving and Randy Gregory, this team has had to put as much emphasis on the defensive line acquiring talent

the last couple of years. Basically you got to have numbers there because you just don't know what's gonna if the availability of an Irving or a Gregory or those type players either or with the injury concerns as well, it has been very, very difficult for them to put together a defensive line that they had have any real consistency with as far as availability, that's the thing. Yeah,

and they can't. Yeah, and Collins gets hurt going through the bags, you know, and you're going, my gosh, this guy that is there, you know, brittleness in his bones and his feet. You know, what's the situation there? Uh, you know, it's we talk about different questions, you know, receivers, safety, you know. Now, I think the defensive line it looks like on paper when we look at it, a very potentially a very talented group. The problem is can you get all the pieces together on the field at the

same time. We saw that last year with the secondary after the Los Angeles Charger game, what do they do all those young kids started playing, But that was really the first time that all the young kids could play. So you know, that's that's kind of where we're at with this. They need MALIEK. Collins on the field. I mean, he's got to take up one of those defensive tackle spots and get back to where he was playing last year.

And think about it, he played okay last year and he's playing through a stress fracture in his foot, and they thought they took care of the stress fracture in the off season, and then he asked to have another surgery because he ended up now breaking that fifth meta tarsal so and he broke the other one a couple of years ago. Right, it was the third time he's had surgery for a broken fifth meta tarsal so. Two

on one, one on the other. And he's probably not going to be out here practicing in pads for two weeks. I don't know if he'll be out here during training camp. He's walking around okay, so that's a good sign. But he's on pup so you know, Gosh and and and they're thin at that defensive tackle spot. I will say this I mentioned he broke the other foot as a rookie two years ago. He came back the last week a camp and you're thinking, wow, rookie missing time, could

take him a while. He stepped right in and did a nice job that year. I think the question is can he stay healthy for sixteen games? The thing that I'm hopeful and we talk about him, I'm hopeful. Remember last year he going against Zack Martin some of those one on one drills and we were doing some compete period stuff live watching it and you go, I want you know, Collins won that time. You know, you're like, okay, good, you know, but then he'd lose the other two times.

And yeah, you expect that because you're going to get Zach Martin. But he gave you hope that he was winning those one out of every four or three reps, you know, three or four reps he was winning because you're thinking, if he's beating Zack Martin one out of every two or three times, he's gonna beat other offensive guards and you know, and have some success. And but it's just the health. It's just been the feat the brittleness of the bones and the feet have just been problematic.

For sure. And then after you know they're they're depending on jeehigh Ward there, yeah, but after him who ran Price? Ryan Price? Yeah, and that and Dayton Jones, Dayton Jones and then you know you had guys say that with confidence. Not really, I'm just going down the depth the gol. Daniel Ross is another one they've kind of you know, so yeah, it's not a it's hopefully they can find one or two guys out of that group much like

they did. They looks like to me and if I just switched another position, I like what I've seen with Joe in the ot as many camps, Joe Thomas and March Lillard, Justin March Lollard. So if they could find some guys that are capable backup guys or backup players that look like that, hey, I can plug these guys in for eight ten plays and will be okay. I

think that's what they need with this defensive line. They need to find Richard Ashe and Lewis and and uh and those guys need to Daniel Ross need to elevate their games much like a Joe Thomas or Justin march Lillard will be And I hate to say this, but if somebody emerges at right defensive end, Is there a chance Crawford moves back inside? I hate that for him because he's been ping pong back and forth between end and tackle. But the best field then they may have

to do that all right. Time for a break already. Jerry Jones made a comment yesterday this could be one of the best defensive front sevens he's had. Here we talk about that when talking cowboys continues. At a moment, it can be hard to find the right resource for learning about important financial matters. You searched how to build savings, you end up reading about the one weird ingredient from

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As we get set a little over an hour from now, the Cowboys walk through and then this afternoon their first practice of this twenty eighteen training camp. As it will be four o'clock Oxnard time, they can actually get on the field earlier than that, about to three to thirty or so. Guys come out on the field, So if you're coming out here to Oxnard, of course, that's all Pacific time right there. I wish you could see Mickey during the break though. We took care of the leaf

blower right there. Ain't gonna be anybody out here till four o'clock. Is it not right? It was pretty good. It just let people do their jobs. You know, we can always lie together. Was yeah, it didn't listen to that speech at Jason Garrett. That's what I was. That's always together, totally over Mickey's head. Day. I was just trying to do He's like, they're not out and there's nobody out here until four o'clock this afternoon. You know you can do that later. I'll be the five year old. Right,

that's right. You need a Cowboys schedule here it is Star magazine. I picked up my copy of Star Magazine too. Okay, you can go Dallas Cowboys dot com slash Star. You can also go to shop dot Dallas Cowboys dot com and order a print version of it. Yeah, right, and uh very nice. I'm just starting to leaf through it myself. Speaking of leafblowers, all right, Jerry yesterday he made the comment at given good health, he this could be uh, the one of the best defensive front sevens they've had here.

That's a mouthful, is but given the health as we just ran down in the last segment, all the health issues as far as the front four is concerned, well, they've got similar issues at linebacker. I'll go this far. With the defensive line. I think I think it's got a chance on paper to be the best defensive line since Rod Marinelli has been here in the last four or five years. From a number standpoint, from guys that can get on the edge and rush the passer. And

obviously there's some question marks. You know, well, David Irving may play inside if he's active and healthy to go, but you know, Randy Gregory has competition here. I'm I disagree with you a little bit, Brian, because I think as much as they've invested in him, I think if he can show them enough potential in the long game, sure they want to hang onto him, but he has competition.

Dorance Armstrong is another big twelve guy build. It has a chance to crack this rotation get in basketball, Yeah, okay, left tackles exactly. Tony Eely's a guy they like he's been, you know, coming off surgery though, But there there are guys there that can help. And that also includes Taco taking another step too. Yeah. I don't you know, I totally understand what you're saying about the the Gregory. I

just feel like, though, if it's gonna be a competition. Yeah, and if if if it's a shame on them though, if they keep Randy Gregory and he does and Randy Gregory doesn't play well enough, if they keep him because of the reason they've invested so much in him or whatever got to it. But yeah, because and then put somebody on the street that actually Randy Gregory and I and people on Twitter got ammined about this yesterday. I'm

not against Randy Gregory. I think Randy Gregor, I said this yesterday, is capable of playing these preseason games in the second half against seconds and third tackles and getting sacks. He's very capable of doing that. And if that's the case, then Randy Gregory will make this football team. I'm not

against Randy Gregory. I just think that for us to all, for me or other people to say that Randy Gregory is going to get this job just because they've waited eighteen months to get him, I think is the wrong idea.

If Cony Eely plays better, if Dorn's Armstrong plays better, and they don't get a roster spot because of that, then shame on this front office for not putting together the best fifty three man roster and just saying, Okay, we're gonna keep this guy around because potentially, but Randy Gregory is more than talented enough to make this football team. He could beat Cony Eally out, he could beat Armstrong out.

He could beat anybody out that plays at that right defensive end if he's got his head on right and he's got his playing with his technique and that burst that he has. But Bill, you mentioned the front seven and the linebackers as well. I mean, obviously Jerry is bullish on Jalen Smith being able to take another step forward. You spend a first round pick on Layton vander Esh to provide depth as well as probably play a lot of snaps in a rotation as well, so they feel

better about their numbers and their potential there. This is where I think it's going to be interesting. And I want to get your guys opinion on this is the linebacker and how do you feel like just you can crystal ball it, you know, because we really don't know. But how do you think it is going to end up? For did we talk about yesterday that did you say something about Damien Wilson This could be his last year as a start. I just said that, yeah, because yeah,

he's been starting for what two years now? He could be a backup. Yeah. See that's where I'm saying, I you know, I'm I'm gonna be really keeping a keen eye on where Layton vander Esh fits a and then what they do with Jalen Smith. They hinted about him, Jalen Smith being a pass rusher. So does that mean as a nickel hand on the ground kind of rush guy, take Crawford off the field or kick Crawford inside, you know, figure out what you want to do, put, you know,

move guys around. Trying to figure this thing out. But I'm interested to see how they play these linebackers because it sounds like to me and the training staff all along has said twenty eighteen when they drafted Jalen Smith, twenty eighteen was going to be the year for Jalen Smith to be at his best. And it peers what we saw a little bit at the end of the season in the OTA's the mini camps. The movement, the

elateral agility, all that stuff was coming around. So will they will they will he be the starting mic linebacker. I don't think they drafted Layton Vanderish or targeted Layton Vanderish to be drafted to sit on the bench. I think they're going to find a way to play him.

And now, how do you get Jalen Smith on the field along with Sean And don't discount the fact that when they play a three man front, which they like to do, sure that when he talks about Jalen Smith being a pass rusher, that he does it as a blitzing pass rusher from their three two six alignments. Right. I thought that during the season last year because when he was having difficulties in coverage and stuff and lateral

movement and that sort of thing. But let him go. Yeah, I thought there were time, But it's so difficult during the middle of the season in order to implement that, right, you know. But if you are have that in your mind as you go into training camp and you kind of are training the player along those lines, then you

can implement it maybe during the road. He did a tale of the tape with him this spring, you know, and we had a chance and it was one of the players where Melvin Gordon was running latterly to the sidelines for the Chargers and he beat the center's block, went all the way outside the tackle box and made

the tackle for no loss. That's what Jalen Smith's now capable of doing, you know, And that you finally have seen the that ability to get to the football and wherever, wherever you have to play him to get to the football, get him there he could finish. And that's that's where that's why I'm the most excited. I trust me, I'm the guy that didn't want Jalen Smith here. He made me look really really bad, really really wrong, and I

respect him for doing it. I didn't. I didn't. I couldn't evaluate how much it meant to him to get back on the field and be at play at a high level. But he has. So let's see how this. Let's see how with the linebackers. You know, we've been Bloom now the new coach there, Ben's been around these guys. But let's see how he gets these guys on the field and make him play. And let's go back to where you started. Maybe Jalen Smith ends up on the strong side and maybe they don't play him in that

traditional strong side guy taken on at the line of scrimmage. Yeah, maybe they use him as a move guy. I think get him after it. I'll see if physically he looks like a guy that could play a block in front of him. Yeah, physically he looks like extend, you know. Can you know he's got that upper body power to him. So I totally I get where you're going with that one.

But I also I also feel like I would not feel badly about playing him at sam linebacker if they had an in line y tied in, because I know you can extend. He's talked about to me when we did the tail of tape. He's talking about the one arm, you know, running with one arm and then hitting and then getting to the play. But I think he's got the power and the strength to sit down on somebody if he had to play as that strong. It'll come down to is vander Esh ready to take over the rettle?

There you go, that's gonna I think that'll be. That'll determine where everything. That's the other thing with vander Esh. Since he had the injury during the offseason, we weren't able to see during the mini camp where we're lining him up, So it'll be interesting out here to see. Uh So, do you think it will strictly be in the middle for him. I think initially it will be I think, you know, I think he's a bride enough guy. That's the way. I think they're bright enough guy that

where if you had to move, he can move. But I think they want to just kind of throw him. I did that this sign that's might throw him in the deep end of the pool and watch him swim, you know. And that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna throw There's a lot of these guys. I'm gonna throw him the deep into the pool. We can go through all the uh, we could go through all the guys.

Michael gall Michael Gallup, I'm gonna throw you in the deep end of the pool, you know, Layton Vanders, I'm gonna throw you the deep into what they did with Travis Frederick, Honor Williams, throwing you deep into the pool, you know. With Nate Newton philosophy, if you got young guys and you think they're kind of good and play them. Yeah, don't let nothing wrong, guys, Jerry Jones philosophy. Nothing wrong.

Actually be the first round, nothing wrong with that. Even if you're a third round draft pick like Gallup, there's opportunity. I mean, this wide receiver. There are no roles really said at the wide receiver position. There's a chance for him to step in and get significant snaps right away if he earns it. But tying up. I do like these linebackers. I do, and I mentioned Joe Thomas and Justin march Lillard. Those guys you can see them a lot.

Bill will be calling these games. Mickey on the sideline wall, be there. I promise you will be talking about these guys a lot in second quarters, third quarters, fourth quarters of games as reliable backup type players can vander Esh. And then the other thing is vander Esh if he starts in the middle, who's behind Sean Lee? Because as we talked about who's behind Tyrn Smith and didn't win a game without Sean Lee on the field, yeah, for the whole game. And so who is I think it's

I think it's march Lillard. That yeah, I think it's Rob. I think I think if if if. I don't think they want to move vander Esh right now. But he has the ability to play week side, no no doubt, because he can run. He can run now. The thing the thing that I saw it Boise on tape. The only problem I really saw with him is if he gets hooked up. For a big guy, he moves well. But if he gets hooked up, he's got to learn to get can't. You know we're talking about Jalen Smith.

Jalen Smith. Need to teach him that one arm chuck and then keep moving to the ball because you can't get tied up in this league. That's one of the great things about Sean Lee. He doesn't get tied up when he's getting to the ball. He's always running from the ball. He's running to the ball, but away from blockers. And you've got to have that that kind of that instinct to do that all right on the One of the exciting things I think about this training camp is

just there's there's competition all over the pis. You know, in the in the NFL these days, your teams are put together in the spring and you're basically practicing plays in training camp to speed right exactly right. But you look on this roster and the depth chart and there is competition at a whole bunch of position groups this year, which is yeah, which is which is so different than than what you see in the past, which makes it

really intriguing. Well, I think it will be the most intriguing training camp we've seen in quite some time, just because of the competition at so many different positions. You know, we've been talking about the line, We've been talking about the linebackers. It's gonna take place in the secondary. It's gonna take place at wide receiver. Rob pointed that out. We's gonna take place at tight end, right, I mean backup quarterback back. Now are they just gonna say, okay,

um Smith, you're the backup running back? Or Scarborough got something to say about it? As you know, there's other guys here that are going to fit into the equation. So the competition team wide, you know, can somebody make the team on special teams because they did lose some special teams guys, right right, So you know there there's

a lot of opportunity. Yeah, right, there you go. That's right. Yeah, So you're exactly right, And that's why I think we're gonna be paying a ten mentioned to these practices to see where everybody's fitting in and how they're playing once the pads come on the spot that I mean you mentioned right tight end. To me, it's every skill position. Guy, that's not Zeke Elliott. I mean it's who who is Dak going to rely on this season. I don't think we know that yet for sure. I mean, I think

Cole Beasley is still around. They're gonna they need a Brian's and I have said they got to get him going. Terrence Williams health Willing is back. But other than that, I mean, you've got guys they've signed mentioned Gallup, Alan Hearns and then tight end. Look nine career catches between all these guys, and it's all by Jeff Swain, not to mention who's gonna help blocking in the running game

for Zeke from the tight end position as well. To me, that's that's the most intriguing part for me, is that this is a totally revamped group around Dak Prescott. I think we all kind of have I shouldn't lump us all in, but maybe I can get you guys to come my way. If you look at wide receiver, are you're gonna carry six? Maybe carry seven? I don't think you can carry seven, but you maybe you carry Recury six.

It depends on how you count the TI. I count as a wide receiver, Okay, so just a specialty play, Yeah, I count as a wide receiver, because I think that's what they really want to have many running Then you're keeping three running back, trying to keep three ning and keeping three quarterbacks. See that's where you don't have that satellite back. Yeah, that's weird. That's weird to me. He's

versatile enough to do. Now. The thing about it is, if you think about it, if you look at the wide receivers and correct me if I'm wrong, Hearns, Beasley, Gallop, Okay, now pick me three more, you know, find me three more wide receivers out of that group's a wide receiver. Yeah, so I mean you could I'm playing him as a wide receiver. But okay, it'd be a situation where you can go maybe either way with him. What if it doesn't work out this summer, what if things don't I mean,

I'm just trying to Terrence Williams. Williams. See that's debatable, right, Yeah, yeah, I mean he's in competitions. See, that's that's that's what I'm kind of I'm kind of driving at this thing where you've got all these names of these receivers and you're trying to think, Okay, who were the next three guys?

And the next three guys are going to be the guys that have the most consistent days, the guy that doesn't get hurt, the guy that's out there running hard, the guy it's making plays that These receivers can't be up and down, they really can't. They've got to be consistent throughout. But I'll challenge you in in my like I say, I've got Hearns, Beasley, Gallop, and after that, I'll challenge you to find three more because that's that's where I think we're all gonna be scratching our heads

a little Bitte Thompson exactly. Quinn one of the first names and yeah, that out of his mouth when I think Mickey interviewed him in the off season, was Noah Brown on special team? Okay, will Noah Brown be consistent enough? See, that's that's where this all this all plays out though, because we've seen we've seen receipt we've seen players here

make the team but not play special teams. Now, maybe that maybe that boats well for both Scarborough if you think about it, because if you look, Alfred Morris didn't play teams last year, right, So it's it's there's so many little intriguing things that saying. The hard part is that because these receiving corps has so many new people right now, and you get the preseason games, how much you're gonna play Dak, But you almost have to play them so they can get everybody on the same page together.

And you got so many different guys to play. How many opportunities are some of the guys that we said at the end of that list to get to play with Dak to make the team. But I don't think you play Dak a whole lot more in preseason, do you? Because you I'm not playing him behind my second team off how much they gotta play this? This is I don't want to hear you get into the season now. I think it's I think you're on the same pains

out I do too nicky. I think I think you make I think you you bring up an excellent point. I think where I learned about Dak and the receivers is kid my young corners. How am my young corners? If my young quarters, who I really like, are covering these guys down after down after down, then I'm happy for my young corners. But I'm also like a little bit worried at wide receiver. But this is where this

is my laboratory. My laboratory is not against against the Bengals, the Cardinals and the Texans, and that my laboratory is going to be right out here. I'm gonna try and figure it out because if my young corners are covering guys and my guys aren't getting open and Dack's having trouble, then then this thing is gonna have some problems. That's

gonna be my lab all right. We're gonna take a break, and who's the most valuable player on this team, meaning who's the one player they can least afford to lose when we come back on talk. That's a season a moment I know it is that the second best of anything simply won't cut it, and your skin kids should

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to Talking Cowboys, Talking Cowboys continues from Oxnard, California. Bill Jones, Rob Phillips, Ryan brought us Mickey Spagnola and we're gonna be here every day at this time, right Friday Friday, unless the team's traveling like or unless we need a special show on Saturday or Sunday. We've been known Bill to do a show at four in the morning here before and what was the occasion after a game after instead of that's the way we and it might have been one of the best shows we've ever turned out

the tennis lights. Yeah, so after the Thursday night San Francisco game was that might be something. I don't think we'll get back time. Maybe we might do a joint shows how we get back. But it was fun. We all we we unloaded in Kent Garrison. God bless him, he's always he's he's put up. He's done the show at ten, he's done shows at Cowboys, he's done Senior Boy, he's done shows everywhere, golf course. And we all just made the determination on the bus. It's like, let's do

a show. Let's get it, let's get it over with. And we and it was fresh on our mind and we do it. One of the best shows we've ever had a bright early about five of them are morning. Yeah. We got our three or four hours afterwards. Yeah. And by the way, there is a Sunday a week from Sunday right here on Dallas Cowboys dot com and I'll also be televised on t x A twenty one in Dallas. Fourth.

One of the practices what was the Blue White scrimmage. Now, okay, all right, but it's a practice, but it was basically will be this format we did it last year. This a lot of format and uh talking about the team and then be opportunity for you to actually see what's going on during practice as well. All Right, the player of this team can at least afford to lose key. You're right on it. Well, like he's gotta look, you gotta leave through it exactly. Okay, all right, let's go

to the cover. There's a reason why he's on the cover of the media. Guy number four is on the cover of the media. And if you want to have a tie, then I can page through here and find Ezekiel Elliott. You can't have a tie, you have to have one. And if I have a three way tie, then it's Sean Lee and four away tie Tyrant Smith. Yeah. Now, if you don't like anybody, yeah, you lose your credential. And at times last season they lost three of the four Yes, yeah, yeah, I had it affected number four,

especially with with Zeke out. Yeah, I you know what I like. I said, nobody would want to play without your quarterback, but nobody wants to play the quarterback on defense. You know, that's one of the reasons Mickey and I had this discussion why you would maybe go get Earl Thomas. That was the discussion we had yesterday. That was good. I like that, maybe just something to solidify and hold this defense together when Sean Lee's out, because when he's out,

it is a different defense. It doesn't it doesn't have the playmaking ability. Now, maybe these young kids will step up and prove me wrong. Uh, you know, a Woozier Woods, Layton Van der Esh. You know, maybe one of these kids will step up and make plays to compensate for that.

But I'll tell you what, this team has a hard time playing without Sean Lee, especially in effects really how they play on offense, I think, and maybe what you should ask is, you know I used to do my column before training camp and ask who was the most indispensable player on the team going into training camp, And I eliminated the quarterback because it was always going to be Tom Romo. So now who's the next guy that

you can't do without? And and to me, this became very clear what we just talked about those four guys. So I changed the theory and I said Okay, who has to become relevant? Like who has to step up and become somebody. Last year, my choice was DeMarcus Lawrence right I hit. This year my choice was Chittabey Owoozy eight. Yeah.

They need him to become Everson Walls in twenty four number twenty four because they need somebody to establish in that secondary that they can rely on to say, Okay, you got Julio Jones, go cover yea and yeah, stay healthy, be productive. He's he's got all the traits to be a physical shutdowns become kind of a cliche term, but a guy who can really make plays on the outside of corner. To answer your question, I'm going with Zeke.

I think it's Zeke because everything offensively. That was my question, not Mickey's question. Yeah. Yeah, more so than Dak. More so than Dak. I mean, so it's it's to me, it's apples and orange. They're both very important. They're both the leaders of this football team now in my opinion, along with Sean Lee and Tyrn. But he everything is built around what he does up front for them. It helps the quarterback, it helps the defense. That's why they

drafted them, and that's why they got thirteen. He is the main reason to me why they got thirteen wins two years ago and why they were in position to make the playoffs before he got suspended last year. Now the other guys get the other guys getting hurt certainly didn't help. But I do think they've done some things depthwise to help upfront. If Tyran were to miss time right, um, and you don't. Of course you need Dak on the field, but I think having Zeke gives them an edge. It

gives them, It gives them a physical mentality. I think guys just respond to him running over people. Could they win games with Zeke on the field and Cooper Rush is the starting quarterback? I don't know that, but I think when you have him, a strong running game and a a badass offensive line, I think it gives you a chance. I really believe that that's not minimizing Dak. I think Da Dak is extremely important to what they But that's the key thing because the Dak's not there. Boy,

what you win games? Three years ago? We wondered that exact question, didn't we, Right when we came out of here. Can this team win without without Tony Romo and having a running game. I mean, that's that's really where we were at, and they did. They did, and the Eagles were able to win without Carson winning. I think so maybe Rob's right though, this is where I and he is, he is right. I mean, I don't know that there's

really not a wrong, no, but I I believe. I believe in Sean I believe in what Sean Lee brings to this team defensively. But when you when you, I went back and watched because I keep bringing up the Kansas City game because I felt like that was the best win they had. That's where they looked the best moving the football. They played solid defense, but they gave up the big play at the end, you know, at the end of the half, which is you know they

got they survived that, but they created turnovers. I look at how much Ezekiel Eliot affected that game when it came to the play action, when it came to the boots, the waggles, to getting the ball to the outside. You know, it just was a big It was a big reason why they won that game. Because his and Mickey always talks about it too. Is he makes such a difference in the game. But like you said, it's offensively and defensively. The way he's able to control the game with his

physical running style helps both sides of the football. And if you don't have Zeke, I mean Rod Smith showed some really good signs in the season and last year. You know one thing, and I mentioned that, I think on the other show that we did around the Mini camp Bo Scarborough. Phil Savage who Senior Bowl, Yeah, former GM in the NFL, M he did Alabama. He's no longer the analyst, but he's been the analyst for the last throughout their National championship run, a heck of a run.

He I heard him on Sirius NFL Radio talking about Bo Scarborough saying that there's no doubt in his mind that he's a capable of one hundred yard games in the NFL. Yeah, he's that kind of kind of back and well for him to be available in the seventh round, there may be some other things. Will you will get a big because the health I think alive had to do with this health at Alabama where you will get

maybe the best view of both Scarborough. It will be in the second half when you're calling these preseason games and it's not the best offensive line block and maybe it's not the best defense, but he is just rumbling through and it's down after down after down, just physically carrying the football. I think that's a real, really good sign. I mean, I think that's a sign of like, Okay, maybe you'll see him second. Then you'll see him a little bit earlier in some games, and I think they

see him in the second quarter. Yeah, that's ub saying though I want to see I want to see him though. Get it really off to a good start, and then and then build on that, because I think Phil is absolutely right about scar I was really there were a couple of guys. There was a kid, Watley from from Iowa and we were doing the draft show that I really liked. I really thought he was more of a Matt Forte type of a back if you remember Matt Forte from the Bears when catch, run, do all that

kind of thing. I think I was kind of like thinking, Okay, they're gonna need a back, but I didn't think it was gonna be both Scarborough. But if you think about what this team wants to do running the football, both Scarborough is a great fit. And then how they want to play, and that's what I like about him too, is the brief time we've talked to him so far as he knows what he is, he's downhill, hit you in the mouth. I mean, he's you know, maybe Brandon

jacobszip comparison. Not that he's gonna have that type of career, but that type of running back. Yeah, you know style North South, run right at your smith. They'll go out there first and get a few carries and then you're gonna see the Bow Scarborough show and see the other thing I like about getting more than five carries in the third preseason. The other thing I like about those staple of running backs is they were recruited by Oh they and they went to Ohio State, Ohio State and Alabama.

Yeah about Texas, A and N with Trey Williams. I would say this though, I would say this about Trey Williams. I do not no, no, I I think that if you asked me, kind of a sneaky surprise player. And everybody wants to talk about, oh, well they brought back you know they when they when they brought back Darius Jackson and was like, oh Darius Jackson's back. There's Trey Williams has got a little intrigued to me when I watch him. I loved the way he's built. He's a

square kind of like a rock built guy. He's got some wiggle to him. He's tough. I wouldn't discount him as a guy that if you want a sneaky guy to make a fifty three man roster, he could be one of those guys. He has that kind of ability. And are we too quick to discount the fact that they still want to have that Lance Dunbar satellite back.

I think that guy. Yeah, if it's not or that they could have both, yeah, I think I think if they you know, they worked out they worked out Lance Dunbar before the draft, which we kind of thought as we're doing the draft show and stuff, We're thinking, Okay, this is gonna be there if they didn't draft a running back. Okay, here here's where Lance Dunbar comes back, Well, then they make the trade. If you go watch Tabon

Austin play, that's what That's what Sean McVay did. They put him in the backfield, they tossed it to him, they handed it to him, they jet sweeped him, They treated him like a running back. Is really what they did. Threw him a screen or two. So, uh, it's on Jerry's Jerry Jones told Scott Lenahan. He says, hey, this is on you. Now you need to figure something out for Tavon. Austin says, oh, I will, So we'll see if he does. And Trey Williams I think helps you

also on special teams. And he looks like a willing yeah coverage guy. Yeah, this not just a he's a collision guy. I could see. I could see him kind of becoming again. Bill, you'll be in a broadcast. I promise you you'll start talking about well, Trey waves, this is what he can do. We've talked about him on our shows. And you know, I think keep an eye on trailer. You got Trey Bow and Darius Jackson for one spot probably basically yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly interesting exactly

or maybe not, maybe not? Maybe keep eight nine receivers, you know, and four running backs. Yeah. With the new kickoff rules in the league, do you think that played a role at all in their happiness over getting Tavon Austin That he that that he could have an effect

on kickoff returns. You know, when I asked him that, he said, you know, I was, I'm a punt returner, right, Yeah, they didn't use him, and he said, but I got a feeling you're gonna see me returning kicks or leasing training camp and and I was aware of that as far as the punt and he looks he's more of a punt return type. But right, it's gonna be interesting around the league now with the kickoff returns are gonna be I think gonna be one of the stories. I

think it's gonna be a lot of collisions. I mean, we're Mickey and I went to the officials. We went to the officials a seminar, you know, and over at in Frisco. And I don't know if I felt any better about the explanations they were trying to give us. You could have an adverse effect because you're you're put creating situations where they're gonna try to pin guys down and here we go. But I think if you get a guy that has open field running ability, there's gonna

be so much space. Tavon Austin's gonna be very I told you guys that, I told you, I said this yesterday. I told Garrett, I said, oh, so with these new rules, a guy like Tavon Austin, that'll be sort of like the end of the half at Kansas City. And he didn't catch my humor at all. He was still bitter about that play. But that's what's gonna happen. Right, You're gonna have all that space, and you're gonna have space not only wide, but space between the coverage guys and

the return guy because they can't get a running start. Right, You're gonna be blocking fifteen yards from the line of scrimmage, so there's gonna be space to run. Yeah. So you got if you got a Tyreek Hill type player, yes, put him out there. Yeah. Or and and if if I got Tyreek Hill lining up in front of me when I'm kicking off, the ball is going through the upright, Yeah right, I'm not kicking to him. Well, I'll tell you what though. He's one of the most explosive players

I've ever been West Virginia. I know, Bill, you saw him. He every time, every time, every time he touched the ball, you were just like you would hold your breath if you see him against Oklahoma, Oh yeah I did. Yeah, Dana Hogerson lined him up at running back. They made an adjustment against that. Mike Stoop's defense says that with bitterness incredible. Tavan All stood up at running back at halftime of that game and he ran for three hundred yards. And it's the OU defense in the second half of

that game. In one half, he's still not Tony Jefferson was playing on and he was runs of poor seven anyway, and he's still able to make it in this league. But uh, that's what Tavon Austin. Absolutely. Yeah, Now you just got to hang out of the football, hang on his wrist he's sitting. Did Yeah, but the year before,

the two years before that, he was pretty productive. Absolutely, So, Yeah, it's a numbers game there where you've got the the rookie coming in at wide receiver for and they reshuffled the deck wide receiver with the Rams last year bringing in the Buffalo guys, Woods and Watkins. There was no place for Tavon Austin to play on and they weren't going to give up carries for Girlie to give it to table. That's the main thing, Like, right, you're not

taking the same situation. Yeah, all right, So our last three minutes here of talking cowboys who you're looking at on the field today. I'm gonna start with the wide receivers guy. I think, well, like I talked about her, I got my three that I think her some locks. But then, okay, who are the other three gonna be? I'm gonna see who gets off to the good start and if they can maintain that throughout though. Let's look for the rotation, see how they play him, and I'll

look at this wide receiver corps. I mean until the pads come on the receivers, because you can at least see what the ride receivers are doing. Right when the pads come on, my guy's gonna be gehid Ward. Yeah, yeah, which wide receiver in particular without the pads? Yes, Gallup, I'm the two. Michael Gallup is the guy that I'm focusing on. I want to watch him. That's a good one.

I've always said Alan Hearns since he got signed, because I think he's got that Miles Austin type of opportunity in two thousand and nine where he can grab a brass ring and be not try to be Daz, but be a guy that it can be a go to for Dak. He better grab the ball ark coat. A coach, A coach you're gonna be watching. I'm always fascinated to watch. I mean not today, but throughout camp. I'll always go down if you if you're down or watching practice, go

down and watch Marinelli and then run drills. Yeah, those defensive line you'll learn a lot about defensive line play with swat, swims, hands, technique, rip, grab, all that stuff. That's always a fun drill to watch those kids go through those bags and the way they do and and fit on each other and stuff. Because if they carry it from those drills into the into the practice and team period stuff, that's that's a good that's a good thing to watch. Right. We had a discussion yesterday without

Winton and Dez, who brings the intensity of practice. I think Chris Richard For me perspective, I'm with Rob can do that. He was awfully entertaining and just OTAs and minis absolutely And I would imagine when we get out here, he's gonna up his intensity. He might he might have tape on his cleats black, spat it up, spat it up some black and here we go. He's been worked it out in the morning and the workout, Oh that makes a Mickey's been working out in the morning too, right,

and he was taking one of my spots. Yeah, of course I'm off. They just like the leaf tread, like the leaf blower. Hey, what are you doing here? All right? We're counting down the seconds? Yeah, how about that? Talking cowboys getting us more in tune? Right current, This is very nice here. We'll stick around, Well, maybe we won't stick but maybe we'll be here tomorrow. Ask we will tomorrow, same bad time, same bad channel. Stay tuned for the break.

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