Religious fanatics see no issue engaging in the violence, sexism, and racism, and general malevolent foolishness, provided that they can end the phrase with but Jesus. Once I was hanging out with my uncle and a friend of his, and they thought it would be super fun to start telling horrible racists and sexist jokes. I out loud said ugh, gross, And then I was told that it was weird that I was objecting because I was white, that it's just
a joke. I shouldn't take it so seriously. That they knew people who fit into the punchline of the joke that fit those stereotypes, so it was okay, which is really sort of an admission that they actually believed what they were saying. And they topped it all off with someone looking directly into my eyes and saying, but what really matters the most to me is someone's relationship with Jesus Christ. I feel like I see that a lot today. You can just say anything, you can be as unhinged
as possible, provided you end it with but Jesus. Almost as though it's a challenge to put the person you're talking with on the back foot, as though now they have to argue with your whole religion when really they just objected to you saying something horrible and disgusting. So I mean, hey, that's pretty gross. I find it really confusing when I'm thinking about this, because we are told we're the blasphemers. We're told that we are the ones who have no morality and that those with morals are
the ones who belong to religion. So I find this confusing. If you want to call and set me straight and let me know like that these things actually are, I'm completely wrong about all of them. Thank if it's a call, because the show is starting now.
Welcome everybody.
Today is April twenty seventh, twenty twenty five.
How did it already get to April?
It feels simultaneously like it's been two weeks into twenty twenty five, and also that it's been four years. But anyway, it is April twenty seven, and I'm your host, Doctor Bennon. With me today is Sophia Spina. Welcome to the show. I know is this our we've posted together at least one of together another.
Time before we hosted together.
Yeah, yeah, I have.
Been all right, I'm excited.
I'm I'm merely graduating from a grad program get them there. So you know, I'm kind of bragging about that a little bit because I kept forgetting to tell people and now I'm like, oh, yeah, like I've been doing grad school so pretty soaked.
Yeah, And uh we're with regard to your cold open today, we had some some current events recently, one of them being of course, related to the pope. And I'm curious if we have any Catholics in the chat that wants to number one, tell me why we need a pope? You know, why, why does a why does one person get to essentially be you know, infallible and just say whatever he wants and have that be gospel essentially? Why do we need to have that?
Why?
You know, why do we praise people who are religious and who maybe didn't completely genocide anybody? And like why is why are the other things that they do still Okay? So we have a lot of a lot of things we could talk about today about that, and I hope we get some calls related to it. But of course, on talk Heathen, we're open to all of your questions on religion, secular humanism, atheistic morality, philosophy, cosmology, science, abortion,
If you want to talk about that. Anything that's on your mind today related to religion, we are here for it. Talk Heathen is a production of the Atheist Community of Austin, a five oh one C three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation of religion and government. And like I mentioned, this is a call in show and we want to talk
to you. So get your calls in at five one two nine nine one nine two four to two or from your computer at tiny dot c C call THH. We still have some open lines, but they can fill kind of quickly, so if you want to talk with us and get some extra time, get your calls in now so we can be sure to answer your call. And with that, we do have a segment in the meantime, Talk Heathen to me, which will bring up the welsh
Man Richard deliver to deliver this part. He's laughing at me, but I'm gonna keep saying this every time I'm done.
Just it's not going away, is it this?
And if someone wants to and someone wants to call in and argue with us and tell us that Richard does not in fact Welsh you can't.
You can't prove me wrong.
Like I don't think you have the documentation to prove me wrong. H So anyway, if someone wants to call in and say that Richard does not Welsh, you know, we might take that call.
Apparently Richard's own personal testimony not enough.
Yeah, not enough is not enough. It's time to quickly move along from Ben's nonsense and so come out then, somebody. He's like, and where we get into the questions of the week, and last week we asked you what does atheist hell look like? And here are top three answers. Number three is from Daniel Aaron and he says, they say atheist hell looks like Christian heaven, Well it could well do. Thoughts guys on that one.
I mean, it makes me think of the book Childhood's End, where at the end of humanity everyone is just kind of one singing mass, no individuality, And I'm like, yeah, that actually does sound like Christian heaven and atheist hell. So so there you go.
Yeah, I agree.
Number two is why Sally re atheist hell is eternal separation from Carl Sagan. I'm a big fan of Carl Sagan, so I'm not sure if I'd go as far as a hero worshiping, But what do you guys think on that one?
We do love Carl Sagan.
You know, I discovered Carl Oh sorry, go ahead.
Oh no, no, you go ahead.
Later in my atheist life.
I went to Bertrand Russell first, and so somehow that became my thing, and Carl Sagan was cool in sciency. But you know, hey, everybody's got their own little heroes.
Yeah.
I actually my favorite thing about Carl Sagan.
It was like that whole story with where people were trying to make dolphins learn English and so they were giving them acid and like jerking them off.
Oh yeah, Balladium, Florida. Yes, and lived with just a flooding house anyway.
Yes, was like, that's not what I meant. That's not what I meant.
I first found Carl Sagan, not through the doing anything Good with Dolphins, Yeah, both through the movie Contact, which to these days my favorite movie of all time. I love that film. Jody Foster's in it and that weird Christian guy from Texas, but it's a really really good movie. In the book it's really good as well. But I've found the movie first and then went onto the book, and they're a little bit different. So watch a movie and read the book because they're both very, very fun.
And yeah, so let's move along number one, because I don't want to get onto anybody being Welsh or tossing dolphins off. Let's keep it just a little bit normal for one. So if we got number one, Chuck Gados Gados etheist, Hell is exactly like eightist even after the first million years. Yeah, I can go with that one. Yeah, you know, praising God for eternity. Yeah, I can't see that being much fun at all. The prompt of the week for next week, how would Jesus' story be different
if he were born to day? And to your best answer below the video in the comments, and next week we will reveal our three favorite answers. But of course I've got what Sophia and Ben first, So let's go with Sofia first. How would you just story be different if he was born today, Sofia.
He'd be selling alpha male courses on TikTok.
My answer is going to be also along the lines of TikTok, like definitely at the resurrection, it would not be just people showing up at the tomb or like him showing up to like the five hundred people or whatever. It would just be him sharing a video to TikTok, and then that would be the eyewitness account would just be a.
Little and then he'd pop on and be like it's really me and just keep Yeah.
Definitely something that was pre recorded. Definitely not something that was pre recorded before his death and then released afterwards as a as a way to keep the world you going no, no.
And then he'd roll into a ground news sponsorship.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, we do have calls waiting, so I'm going to disappear off skirt out of there. Thanks for you answers, guys and audience answering the comment section below, and we will reveal you answers next week.
Bye, Hi Richard, thanks for letting us make fun of you every week. And with that, people that we're not going to make fun of because we value them greatly in they're working very very hard behind the scenes. Let's go to the crew cam. See their beautiful faces there. Thank you so much. Crew. We love everything that you're doing. Oh and one of them is green.
Oh let's green now.
Thanks crew, and we do have some calls coming in, so let's take this first one, it seems very interesting. Let's talk to Steven. He him from New York talking about the Bible verse that everyone descended from Adam and Eve is misunderstood. Tell us more about that, Steven, you are on talk Ethan.
Hey, yeah, I think misunderstood because people think that it means that everyone was birthed by by Oudam and Eve, and you know that it's a the but but that's not what it means. So I just want to I just want to make sure I know what I'm responding to. So what's your take on it?
First, Well, the whole passage in Genesis is confusing because it's contradictory in multiple ways, Like because if you if the assumption is that Adam and Eve were the first people, and then of course they had children, but then you have other people that show up that are also adults. So I honestly, I don't know what to make of it, like because I don't take it as true. I don't take it as logically coherent. So if if you have an argument that it is logically coherent, let us know.
I'm curious what your take is because I'm kind of I'm kind of indifferent to to whether or not it's well understood, because I don't think it happened at all.
Yeah, I think that that's sort of my take too, is that like looking back, it gives you know, a specific lineage, which is sort of odd if he's the father of everyone. So yeah, I would agree that seems unlikely. But I view it as a legend anyway, And so it's kind of like asking me to interpret, you know, folklore about menin angal or something like, do I really believe that this vampire is well understood or misunderstood? Well,
I don't believe in the vampire. I believe the story says something about us, not about the thing.
You know, what are your thoughts, Stephen, But I.
Wanted to I wanted to explain what that qualage means, or that or the adverse means. Basically, it's saying that everyone descended from Adam and you from a prototypical standpoint and from a chronological standpoint, like it's it's not it's not the word with the with the letter I. It's it's just like like I like, if you, you know, think of an hour glass and they just came before everyone. That's what that's what that means. It doesn't mean everyone want but.
That doesn't But that doesn't work right because if there were people around at the same time as Adam and Eve, then then Adam and Eve weren't the first ones, and chronologically speaking, you could not say that everyone came after them, So like, sure, that could be a thing, But I mean, are you saying that this is purely like like purely metaphorical, or are you saying that there's some legitimacy to the passage itself.
It's it's metaphorical. But Okay, even if they were at the same time, I would say it was it was chronologically the first idea for creation. They're the molds of human of all human beings. That's that's why people are misinterpreting diverse a lot. I think.
So, first of all, can you tell us specifically which first, because I'm kind of scanning through early Genesis and there's a lot that talks about like you know, Adam's descendants and kind of that lineage and some of the things they encountered. But I'm wondering you're saying this verse, like can we look at the specific verse? Which one are you thinking of?
Something like I don't have it pulled up in front of me, but it's something like that everyone was descended from out of an ever I don't, honestly, I don't remember.
Okay, why is this important to you to talk about? I'm curious because I think that you know, our take is very much that this is all kind of a metaphor anyway, this is a creation myth, and so it's not going to make literal sense. And it feels like the Bible is open to interpretation, that's for sure.
So like, what is it that you think that would.
Be fruitful from a conversation about this, considering we don't believe in it at all? Like, what's making you call in about this today? I guess I'm a little confused about.
That clarification because I don't know. I just wanted to correct that idea.
Well, and I can see that it's it's reasonable to like, if you want to say, hey, this is a metaphorical thing, I don't think we should be taking the Bible literally. You know that that is a fair argument to make. The question is, though, like, is that the goal you're trying to have? Are you trying to say, hey, people should look at this metaphorically and not take the Bible literally or do you have a different point of utility for this particular misinterpretation.
Well, no, even within it. No, I'm not saying it's like within the Bible. It's not metaphorical. It just means something other than what what most people think.
Okay, so you don't think it's a metaphor so I'd love to hear how you rationalize that there is some form of truth to this. Where you did this idea come to you, like from your own kind of logical thinking or do you have like a source that you were kind of referencing, like did someone say this in a book? Or like how did you come up with this idea?
No?
No, I thought of this myself yesterday.
Actually.
Yeah, Okay, so it's obvious, and I think a.
Lot of Christians actually don't necessarily literally believe that Adam was the father of all humans. Like, so I guess I'm kind of like, who are you correcting? Who are you talking to here?
You know, Well, I've heard say that actually.
We think Adam was the father of all humans.
Or that we think because it's true that some Christians think it, But like that's just us reporting what some Christians think.
It's not us say you think that's true.
Yeah, it's an argument like when atheists are arguing against biblical literalism, like I think that Adam and Eves story is a great one to target to say, hey, you cannot take the Bible literally. And the reason why we'll attack that whole point is because if you have certain parts of the Bible that cannot be taken literally, then therefore the whole rest of the book is up to interpretation. And so then we get into the discussion of was the resurrection a real thing or was that a metaphor?
Was Noah's ark? Was that a metaphor? Do you get into the rest of the book and if you can no longer say that this is like undeniably true, then it calls into question the whole rest of the book and the whole rest of the religion. So that's why
a lot of atheists take that position. But for people that take a more metaphorical stance on this, or if they say, you know, this story the way it's written is not entirely true, then we have to scrub through the rest of the book and say, okay, which parts of it are true, which ones are not, and how do we know that.
So that's why I would say this.
I would agree that this discussion is important, but I'm curious for like how you came to this idea and like, cause if it's not a metaphor, then it's just misinterpreted. Do you think that there is some truth to that story and if so, what parts of it are true? And how do you know that?
I don't know if it's true, but I'm just saying that with like, within the Bible, it's not a metaphor. It's not written to be a metaphor. I'm saying that it's within the Bible, it just means something else. It means that, you know, as I said before, it's saying that everyone descended from out of a news from a chronological and prototypical standpoint, that's what it's saying. But it's it's real within the Bible. If you believe in the Bible.
It just it's just okay cool.
I mean, hey, I'm not sure I believe in Harry Potter. Like that's kind of an irrelevant point.
Yeah, I'm not sure where we're going with this conversation, but yeah, I guess I'm just I'm sure you could make that point, but I don't know what to do with it beyond that.
That's kind of my take to any.
Other arguments you want to bring up. Any other points kind of related to.
That, Uh, not really like I I lost my train.
Actually problem And you can feel free to call back a different week if you have kind of more thoughts together. But thanks for calling in. I appreciate the discussion and a great risk of your Sunday.
Yeah, interesting first call.
It's one that like, we can argue semantics and argue like translation and stuff of certain parts of the Bible, but like, at the end of the day, if we're not claiming that it's true and we're not using that to make other decisions, and it's like, okay, you can have that interpretation and I don't.
I don't know if I need to refute that a whole lot.
Yeah, I mean I think that back when I was a Christian, I didn't literally believe in that aspect. I think I had a similarly squishy kind of take, to be honest, because it seemed so fantastical.
But I also feel like, I don't know.
There are a lot of apologists who work very hard on those particular verses to try to make them make sense, and it kind of boils down to it's literal, but not really so all right.
Yeah exactly.
Yeah, but if any if anybody does have a belief in the literal Adam and Eve and the literal timeline of Genesis, I love to have you call in because that's a very interesting topic of conversation. So get that call in, love to hear about it. And with that, for everyone in the side chat and everyone watching the show, thank you for being here. You engaging with with the content does help us get our show out there, does help us keep doing this. And so there are multiple
multiple ways to help show your support. Watching the show is one of them. Chatting in the side chat is another one. Putting your comments in the comment section below with the question of the week. All of that does help us out. And another way, of course liking the video, sharing it out to your family and friends, sharing it out to I don't know, your roommates, your siblings, all of that. You can also share it out to every single person. Yeah, every single person needs to be watching
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them out when they come in. Usually we'll read them kind of at the end of the show, but if there's something interesting related to a call, we might we might read it kind of earlier on in the show, So get those in. There's also some other events going on. If you're in the Austin area, you can go to meet up and keep up with community events. You can see what's going on at tiny dot cc slash ACA meetup.
They've got events such as Philosophy under the Stars, game Nights, and many more, so be sure to check that out. Also more community events, you can go to weekly watch parties at the Free Thought or Library I cannot speak today Free Thought Library on Sundays for live viewings of Talk Heathen and The Atheist Experience Every Sunday, doors open at noon. And if you want to go and watch this show together with a group of secular friends, by all means go have some fun. I wish I was
nearby so I could do that. It sounds like, yeah, I.
Know some people there right now, and I'm like, you know here, I'm on the show, not with them, but hi everybody there.
Yeah, maybe I'll make my way back there sometime soon. And also follow talk Heathen on TikTok. We have a pre show that goes live every week, and Richard was working very hard on the TikTok before the show.
So join us there.
At ACA TikTok Atheist Community of Austin. It's how you can find that info. Any other announcements that you can think of before we get into the next call, now, just do I also.
Want to put a plug in, like, you know, hey, come to community events. I really feel like that's sometimes an underrated thing that the ACA does. We have secular sisterhood now as well, and we do things like go on hikes and like hang out and it's pretty cool.
So yeah, And I mean we were just talking before the show about like some atheist parenting conversations and like so if you're if you're an atheist that has kids, like I'm sure Sophio would be down to have some some fun discussions, fun things going on.
There is actually now at the ACA there's a baby changing table because I had children and I'm like, I can't change them on the floor anymore. So you know, ACA is a parent supportive organization. There was a changing table as soon as I asked for it, and I just think that's sweet. So yeah, coming out.
That's awesome.
Yes, so stop by, go go to the Free Thought Library on Sundays, watch the show and change your baby's diaper all the same time.
You don't have to be great.
Tangent. We do have as caller.
We have a theist caller, and we went from our previous caller, Steven to now caller Steve, and I believe this is the same Steve that called a couple of weeks ago when I was hosting. Steve from Florida wants to respond to the cold Open about hateful jokes. So I'll let I'll let Sophia kind of take the lead on this one. But Steve, welcome back to talk ethen what is your topic today?
Thank you for having me back, and you are correct, this is the same Steve.
Awesome, good to good to hear from you. Well, what's your what's your topic today.
Well, first I wanted to make sure Sophia excuse me, doesn't conflate jokes with hate a lot of time.
Tell me about that.
You can meet.
Yeah, you can see a lot of comedians of all races making jokes about all different things, and even the people of that group will laugh at it because they all understand it's a joke. So really, if you want to have a you really should probably differentiate jokes from hate. I mean, if it's a hateful to jo, you.
Have a what makes you think I don't. Is it possible to have a hateful joke? And is it possible? That's what I was talking about, not just every joke that touches on race or sex or anything like that.
Well, then just make sure you clarify it a lot more.
Wait, so you think I should have said wait by the should have talked about how some jokes are hateful, and I should have stopped and said, but I do know that all, not all jokes are hateful, and that it can be okay, and that there's even people within those That's what the cold open should have included.
Yes, because you kind of imply that all jokes based on you know, whatever, genders and race and all that could be hate automatically, I.
Think that that was something you inferred from it. But I don't think I implied that. I listened to a lot of what would be considered eddie jokes. But I think a lot of the difference between whether or not it's hate or whether it's just a potentially edgy joke is really and how it's gone about, and who's the punchline, and how it's told.
And is it dehumanizing?
So I feel like it's kind of an interesting thing here for you to call it and just you know. Okay, So can you give me an example of a hateful versus a non hateful joke?
Then?
Well the whole thing is like in the Spondern society now they want to ban all sorts of jokes and anything derogatory towards anybody.
We're not sure if it's.
A joke or not doing that. Yeah, who's doing that?
Can you tell me?
Well? Mostly white women on the far.
Lank Okay, so do you know do you know a group of white women, the international group of mean white women are doing this to you? What's happening? Where are they?
Yes?
I want a join.
Mean white women. Yes, it's just okay.
Steve, do you know what do you know what punching down is? Do you know the concept of punching down?
No, but you're going to feed into a lot of atheists that just see this kind of.
Stuff as Yeah.
No, So here's the difference. Here's one of the big differences.
And so not all jokes are hateful, but there is a tactful way to tell the jokes, like Sophia was saying, and a big difference, especially if you're going to make fun of a marginalized group of people, if you are coming from a position of privilege, that's where it's probably not okay to make that joke.
Like let's say, if you.
And this is why we will kind of sometime have jokes about like cis het white men, it seems like it's kind of hateful. But in that case, the sis het white man in at least in America is in a majority class, is in a position of social privilege, So where making a joke like that is not going to cause social harm to that person, Like that person's not going to lose their job because someone made a
joke about them. That person's not going to lose their family lose their friends because of a joke that was made about them. The difference is when you make a joke based on a stereotype, coming from a position of privilege, and making a joke about someone who does not have that position of privilege, it can influence their lives outside
of the joke. Like if you make jokes about trans people being groomors, that is a joke that can actually harm people, and like that has done that, that has caused trans people to lose their jobs and to lose rights and to lose like societal privileges. Right, So same thing with jokes related to race and ethnicity and nationality, and even it does even get into like religious humor. I would argue that in a lot of cases it's inappropriate to make jokes about Muslims in America because they
are a marginalized community. So you can comment on the religion and certain practices, you can say I don't agree with this particular thing that is oppressive, But making a joke about Muslims like to bash their culture, bash their people, that is problematic and that is a hateful joke. So there's a different with who you're trying to attack with
a joke. And that's where the phrase punching down is when somebody in a position of privilege jokes about a community that does not have that same amount of privilege and uses that joke to disparage them. Does that kind of make sense where the line is, well.
You just kind of made my argument where you said all white people making jokes about everybody else, because I use that.
As an example. I use that as an example because a person from a position of a marginalized community that would be punching up. Right, you are making a joke about somebody in a position of power. You're not making a joke because of the fact that, like, you're not making the joke because of their skin color. You're not making the joke because of their anatomical features or whatever. You're making the joke because of their social status. You're
making the joke about their privilege. So to say that, like making a joke about like cist white men not understanding people in marginalized communities, that is a joke punching up because it's social commentary. It's saying that this is a problem in our society with them having privilege that nobody else would get just because of like a racial status. Well, so that's so that's different than punching down.
You're still proving my point. You're just classified.
But is your point.
Okay, okay, hold on, I still don't get you're saying you're proving my point. And your initial statement was you wanted to be sure I knew the difference between hate and a joke, And so what is your point, like teach me.
Well, doctor Ben, Doctor Ben, there is classifying all what straight white men as privilege. Therefore they can't make any jokes about anybody. Dumb.
I don't think that was it.
That's not what I said, Ben said, And so it's interesting because I'm sorry.
No, that's not what I said.
I said, like in general, like that is an example of a people group that should that is, it's less likely appropriate for them to make a joke about another group of people because me and it's not the case in every country, Like there are other countries where you know, if you're like somewhere where cist white people are not the majority, and if there was a case where they were having a loss of social status or loss of social privilege because of any of those categories, then that
would be the same thing where it would be inappropriate to make jokes about them.
Yeah, I can give it.
Oh sorry, if you're if you're done, No, you go for.
A particular example. Okay, Yes, so I have a particular example that might be illimited. I'm gonna call them grape jokes for the sake of YouTube. I have heard funny and non funny jokes about grape. It's something that can be amusing when told with sensitivity and with the thoughtfulness of the fact that there's actually a victim on this end. So I heard a comic say something once about how you know, grapists and pirates have a lot in common.
You know, they take what isn't theirs.
There they feel entitled to a lot, and sometimes their names are And it was a joke about her personal experience in this situation, and it was a joke at the expense of a white dude. In this instance, If there was a white dude telling a joke about sexual assault or grape, and the person who was sort of the victim of the joke, it wasn't talking about their own personal experience, but it was talking about a woman
who had experienced this grape. I think that we see there there's a very there's a large difference in status. In general, women tend to be the ones who would be the victim of sexual assault and men tend to often be the victimizers more often than not. So it seems more palatable to us, and rightfully so, that one of these folks can make a joke about grape and
the other one can't. I wouldn't say that it's necessarily hateful toward white men to tell a joke in this way, but I also think that something to be her in
mind when we're making these jokes. So if I'm sitting around in a group of white men, like in my story was the case me, and there's no person there who is a representative in any way of any person they were making fun of, and it was making fun of them in a dehumanizing way, that was taking stereotypes and just sitting together and laughing about them as though they believed them, because there's a grain of truth in
a joke, right, I find that pretty gross. So, like, I'm curious, how do you deal with like, let's go with the example of like a rape joke. How do you Oh, sorry, I said it wrong for YouTube, But like, what is your take on that. That's a more concrete example.
Well, right now, the only thing that comes to my mind is doctor Ben allways classifying the privileged and the underprivileged. So he's basically saying all white men can't make jokes to anybody.
So you're touching the question and say, you didn't say so I answer a specific question here, and you just went back to mischaracterizing what doctor Ben said. And it's interesting because I feel like you also mischaracterized what I said at the beginning and in the cold open. I never said that all jokes that include any of this are hateful. I never said anything like that, And you seem to kind of be taking everything really personally, and so I'm curious, like, why where's that coming from?
And because he's using privilege all the time to classify upper class and lower class, so he's actually.
Making think that's upper class and lower class.
But it's setting up context. It's setting a context for
what the commentary is. And that's the difference somebody who is not really at all impacted by some of those issues, but as just perpetuating stereotypes and sitting back and laughing at other people's expense in that like laughing at people who are poor, laughing at people who don't have access to health care, laughing at people who are presumed to be criminals when they're not just because of a racial background that they have, Like that is kind of lacking
tact It's something that like, why why are you going out of your way to make fun of somebody who's in a worse position than you like, And that's and that's where it's coming from. It's like you just have to think about is this joke tactful? Is this like what purpose is this joke serving? And that's and the fact that you're not able to distinguish that is a
little bit concerning to me. Like and even as somebody in uh like a minority group, like I will make so many kind of uh I guess like I will make a lot of jokes about trends people and about LGBTQ people that two other people might sound very harsh and might sound very dark, but like that's the community I come from, and so for me, it's not a
problem for me to say that those jokes. I will choose the audience that I'm saying those in front of, Like I'm not going to say a lot of those jokes in front of people who are not part of that community because it is also lacked, lacking tact in that sense. But me in a community with all LGBTQ people,
it's going to be received a bit better. And so it's it's the way you approach any conversation, like if this community that you're in, if you're telling the joke among a certain group, you have to think, is this is this productive to say? Is the message that I'm trying to communicate going to be received in the way that I'm intending it? Or could this be easily misconstrued?
And like that's what we have to think about, and oftentimes issues regarding minority groups, like there's a lot of depth that a lot of contexts that people who are not part of that community might not understand, might not understand the fullest extent. So that's where you have to be really cautious. And it's not saying that people outside those groups like can't comment on things related to that community, but you have to be very careful about how you
do it and how you handle that. And it's worth talking to like if you have a friend, like an actual close friend in that community and you say, hey, like, is this is this joke tasteful or not? And if they say, you know, I wouldn't. I wouldn't say that around my community that maybe don't say it. And even if you think, like if you're questioning whether or not you say that joke around that community.
Maybe just don't. Maybe just don't say it.
It's more of not like people not knowing the baggage that something carries and then just saying, you know, I'm fine saying this and not caring what that joke is
going to do to the other person. So I think that, Steve, I think you're smart enough to understand social context and like, like you understand that there are times to act professional and there are times to not act professional, right, Like would you wear the same clothes to like a big business, formal business dinner that you would like just go to the park with your dog or is there a difference of how you act an each of those places.
Well, it's fine, I mean, as all jokes, they're only funny or something like that when they have a brain of truth in them, so you know, yeah.
But the whole you're dodging things. Again, I'm asking you questions about context. You understand that there are contexts for different things, and there's behavior that's appropriate in different settings. Right, sure, there is, but there's also within that context there's appropriate.
There's different ways that are differently appropriate for different people. Right, Like at a wedding, it's appropriate for the bride to wear a white dress, and our society has said it's not really appropriate for other people to show up wearing a white dress. Like there's nothing inherently wrong about wearing a white dress, but the context, like, in that context, it is disrespectful for someone to wear a white dress and appear like they're the bride in somebody else's wedding.
Like that's just kind of you just feel kind of icky about it. It's like, you know, maybe this is a little bit disrespectful. That's kind of a similar thing with these jokes. There's a time and a place, there's a person to wear, it is appropriate for them to make that comment and maybe not as appropriate for someone else. And I think I think Steve, that you understand social context.
I think you understand some of this nuance, and it seems maybe you just you feel you feel like you want to be able to say these things, and you don't want to feel guilt about it, which tells me a little bit about their jokes.
Maybe there's jokes, but behind a lot of them.
You just said that there's a grain of truth in the jokes.
Isn't it possible that some folks find these jokes funny because they want to actually be racist and sexist, and so they're saying these things that they actually believe, but they're doing it in a joking way so they can act like I'm crazy and say they just made a joke, so.
They don't get social repercussions for it.
The grain of truth in some in jokes, and that's what makes them funny. There's some in them, you know. And if you're offended, that's on you, not on the other listeners.
So wait, I didn't the other listeners?
Hold on? If I say that you're a bag of dicks and you're offended, then is that just on you? Like that seems like it would be something I'm intentionally saying to be mean, it's inflammatory, I'm a bag. Maybe it has a grain of truth to it. But if somebody laughed at that, like, are you mad at them? No?
Because I'm not a bad dicks.
Steve Is it okay to make question someone thought because they laughed because they thought you were so is that offensive? Or is that okay that they laughed because they agreed that you were a bag of dicks?
Well, it's fine to make jokes if you're like, you're stereotyping a whole group or something like that, or there's a great the thing is that my big is the hate?
Steve? Is it okay?
Is it okay to make racist jokes like where are their race? Is the punchline? Is it okay all.
White men in Florida are bags of dicks? Is that offensive?
It's fine to make racist jokes that there's no hate about it?
Okay?
But how would you tell?
Do I need to stop and ask someone making the joke do you actually feel hate? Or is this just a joke?
Well, that's like you do you draw the line?
Like where is your line? Have you ever heard a joke like this and you've been like, actually, that's too much.
I watched a lot of comedians on the YouTube all the time that are making all sorts of racist jokes and in the context in the.
Place is Steve us funny?
Answer my question here?
Though?
Have you ever heard a joke and thought, no, actually, that's too much, because if you have no standards, if you have no line at all, then anyone taking offense ever or saying something is wrong to joke about, then of course you're going to think they're wrong. But then there's no point in convincing you were trying to convince you because you have no standards.
So have you ever thought a joke went too far? Can you tell me about a time like that?
You always going to make a joke and offend somebody, Usually.
It's not what I asked you personally, Steve, if the bag of dicks are not from Florida, have you been offended by a joke.
Before that makes it funny?
I'm sorry?
What is this uncomfortable laugh about? I'm confused? Can you answer my question?
No, Steve, the bag of dicks from Florida?
That was funny, Steve, Steve, interesting, cigare man.
The interesting thing is that you find you find it offensive when I when I say something about cist white men. But then you come back and you say that it's okay to make racist jokes Like I think that you're personally offended, and you're not willing to admit that you're personally offending other people, and that you are you're okay
with being racist and just telling jokes about it. I think we were probably done with this call because you know what, like I have a zero tolerance for racism or anything similar to racism, Like we do not.
Tolerate that here.
And you are, like Steve, if you make jokes like that and you think that is okay, you are a bag of dicks like that is just that is just fact, no shame about that.
I'm sorry, I was trying not to last.
Yeah.
I also realized that I chose sort of a male focused insult, like dicks are a male body part, and that's what I went with because that's what I first thought of. So there is potentially some gender defense in there, and it's just yes, yeah, I think when you talk like that, you put yourself into this corner where you have to pretend you find everything funny even though it's very obvious that you don't. And so like having any standard is is kind of impossible when you're arguing.
That is it on Steve that like if he got offended by uh calling him as white man? Is that like if that's is that just on him because you're the one that is your problem be for you're offended?
Is that just a hymn problem?
I guess question mark Like, and it was interesting just how hard he worked not to answer questions directly, and that apparently like white women are banning any joke about anything, which I thought was interesting. I'm like, where is this meeting? How am I not a I'm a progressive white woman. Nobody's called me, Nobody said this to me, and I would I would love to be to figure out how
to be a part of that. I think he was just trying not to say Karen because I'm a woman with an opinion, and that's I think was his was his take. Yeah, I think it's just like what is the punchline? If we'd narrow down this joke, if we just said, like, here's the summary of the joke. Is it that I'm weirded out by gay people? Is that what the is that what the joke was? Is it that this group or you know, race of women are ugly? Is that the joke is that, like, you know, where
what is the funny part of it? Like that's a pretty good way to tell, Like, can you summarize what this was about, and so like if you can and it's actually pretty fresh and pretty interesting and can potentially work without assuming that all people that you are not in a group with are the same, then like maybe it's good, but yeah, just just summarize it for like a second.
We learned that skill in fifth grade, guys.
Yeah. Yeah.
And it's like if you if you get to be offended because we called you something of a position of privilege, but then you think it's fine, Like that's what offends you, but you think it's fine to punch.
Down to everybody else like oh.
My god, that privilege that killed it?
Yeah, couldn't you just like circuit in.
Yeah, it's like because people with privilege, like if you're honest and you understand you have privilege, Like I'm not going to be offended by someone pointing out the ways that I have privileged, Like it's it's a thing where you have to have some introspection and say, you know, there is a greative truth to this, and maybe I need to change how I act around people, Like maybe maybe I do need to use the privilege I have
for more positive things. Like if you're not the problem, you're probably not going to be offended by somebody pointing out the societal problem.
If you've ever been in a situation where you were aware you had more social power than someone else, then you understand privilege, whether or not you choose to like acknowledge it.
It's just not that hard.
Yeah, yeah, And it's like and if you're not the problem, you know, the joke isn't about you, so you can calm down.
I know, yeah, I do.
I don't know if you worked very hard to be like, well, it's funny because I'm not a bag of dicks. It's like, yeah, okay, maybe literally or not, but anyway that I'm sorry. I shouldn't insult callers. I just was like, why not lean into this idea? But I promise if I won't call you a bag of dicks.
Yeah, I can't make that promise.
But next next caller, at least are you ready? Are you ready for another caller?
We still get ready.
This is our little therapy session.
Welcome to Welcome to therapy, say everybody, Sunday morning therapy. All right, So our next caller is Tom. He him from Mississippi wants to respond to the chat poll.
So I'll bring you on. Tom. You are on Talk he theen What is your question or argument today?
A Yeah. Before I get to the pole question, I just wanted to say that the issue of the teller of a joke versus the joke itself, it's something I've never really settled in my own mind, and I found this analysis you've just gone through excellent, so I really appreciate that you like it.
Yes.
Yeah. As far as the pole question goes as belief got excuse bad actions? I answered yes because that was really the only choice. It's obviously impossible to put a lot of nuance into a question of pole question, but I answered est because while I believe the maturity of time,
religion does not excuse bad action. I think the question pinpoints an underlying issue which is critically important, which is, there are people who have been exposed or I should actually stress the opposite, who have not been exposed to ideas of careful reflection and critical thinking, who do bad actions based on their understanding of their religion. And that's
really the problem. More than do people do bad things because of religion, I think it is why are there people who sincerely believe they are not doing a bad action based on their religion? And I think that's really the struggle we face trying to reintroduce critical thinking and the concept of a reflective a self reflective life, and that seems to be falling away in the current social environment.
Yeah, I can agree with a lot of that. I do think that the majority of religious people don't believe that the things that religion does is bad. I think that the majority of people want to do the right thing. They want to help people, they want to do what they understand is good, and yeah, I think they're misled by their religious leaders, their religious texts, and especially people
that were like born and raised in the church. Like I remember when I was evangelical, there were so many things that looking back, I now understand are not positive things, but I strongly believed that they were. And I strongly believed that, you know, going to other countries and telling people about Jesus was actually a good thing to do.
And then now learning about why like volunteerism and mission work is actually pretty ichy, and you know, supporting churches that use those funds for irresponsible things, Like I look back and see those as bad, but I genuinely believed that they were positive things. And I will give people the benefit of the doubt and say, like, at an individual level, I think the majority of them are genuinely trying, but they're in the system that you know, taught them,
taught them things that were not okay. So I do I do mostly agree with you on that.
Yeah, I think Also so I'm curious because when I was religious, I felt a lot of personal pressure just from myself to stand up to other religious folks that I felt were we're using religion in an abusive way, and some of it in the churches where I was was because of my gender. It was very much ignored
and very easily ignored. But also it feels sort of cathartic and satisfying, I think for people to get swept up and being this, I am the chosen person, and I must save our country and I must be you know, it's God's mandate that I insert social policy here. It was very hard to argue against and to say, hey, actually, I think we need to be like reflecting on this and really thinking about what this meant in the context of the Bible in which it was said, and I
think that this is actually wrong. And yes, I understand that you think you're living into God's commandments, but also look at all of the folks you're hurting, and that's that's not as it's not as charismatic a message. It's not as you know, people don't get as easily swept away in that, and it's very hard to stand in the way of it. And so in this way, I would say that I saw a lot of instances where religion empowered people to just get really carried away in
whatever ideology they were going to run into. Anyway, So I do agree with you, I'm curious, how how do you message that then, to like other religious folks that what needs to come back is reflection and critical thinking without sort of being told that you're a lukewarm Christian.
Yeah, yeah, that's that is a big problem.
Uh.
And if I had a solution, I would start my own channel.
Do if you get a delusion to that?
Yeah, if I could figure out. But again, what I'm really trying to stress is less a lot of emphasis in these sorts of conversations. A lot of emphasis gets placed on indoctrination, social milieu and things like that with respect to religion. And what I was trying to stress was actually not that, but the lack of an social emphasis on clear thinking or critical even better critical thinking.
I was raised by a Seventh Day Adventist mother, who, as I grew older, realized wasn't so much Seventh Day Adventist as humanist, and a father who was an atheist and also a humanist. But the peculiar thing was that I always had to qualify my father as an honest atheist. It had never occurred to me for a long time. It didn occur to me, why do I have to
apply the qualification honest to his atheism? And eventually, of course I realized, well, you know, that was a holdover from the religious, the common religious perspective that there can't be such a thing as an honest atheist, but clearly my father was. So it's the ability to reflect on
one's own positions and say why. And as to something that doctor Benn said, I agree that the overwhelming majority of people are just trying to lead good life, to be good people, but I think that a significant number of them have a struggle between what they believed to be good and what their religion tells them is good, such as sperience, the words alternative sexual identities, and the only rest to that I think is for those people to actually spend some time thinking about why do I
have this tension? But again, how to try to get more people to adopt that mental stance I wish I know, good answer.
Yeah, And that's why the show exists. That's why TAKI then exists, and that's why we have so many callers talking about slavery, talking about very negative things in their religion and hearing people struggle to make sense of it even on the show, like pointing out, this is what your religion says, and this is what you've told me
you believe is good versus bad. And so many times we see people having that cognitive dissonance on the show, and so many of them like you'll hear this little, this little hesitancy like in their voice as they say it, and then they'll go right back to the thing they were saying before and try to rationalize it, and it just it just goes to show how much like and I know indoctrination isn't like all of it, but how people will have this concept of what is like, what
is the ultimate authority in what they should believe? And I agree that if people are taught critical thinking, if they're taught how do I think for myself, how do I make this decision without having to decide what is the ultimate authority?
Then, yeah, people have a better.
Time, But like I think, just continuing to have these conversations with people continuing to give them moments of cognitive dissonance, because some people do change their beliefs, like I did. I know many of the hosts here, and even if you go watch objectively Dan's street epistemology videos like back when he was a Christian, you can visibly like see the cognitive dissonance show up and he ended up making a huge one ad and then hosting with the ACA.
So it does happen, and it's very difficult for a lot of people. But I think that's why these conversations are so important to have and why we still have call in shows.
Yeah, I kind of was thinking about this sort of along the same lines. Effectively, even what you're doing by calling in and saying these things is what we would call in the therapy world modeling. You're showing people how
to question by doing it yourself. And I think so much about how you don't realize who is listening and who is watching what you're doing I, you know, have been told by I remember, you know, younger siblings and cousins of mine sometimes that I would do something and years later they would tell me that that made them think differently about something.
Or I was at a city.
Council meeting once arguing with someone about racism because why not, and his son came up to me after and said, Yeah, I just had never heard anyone talk like you know about those things before. And so even though you know you don't have to have the perfect answer, just having questions and being able to engage with questions and being afraid to change yourself because otherwise you'll be scared to engage in an argument with somebody.
I think that matters.
So in a weird way, we don't really know how to do it, but at the same time we're kind of doing it, aren't we.
Yeah, I guess yeah, nobody, nobody can be led out of their own mistakes or delusion, but I think that sometimes we're able to drop a little capitalist in there that makes them start leading themselves out. Yeah. It's tricky, and I think you're right it is. It is thinking about specific things. For instance, I still remember the approximate age I was when I came to realize that yes, in fact, I am racist.
That's made a using previous callers question back to the previous color. But yeah, but that is what it takes.
Sometimes it's like, yeah, having that realization of like, yeah, I did something that hurt people, I did something that was a problem and it's it's okay, Like no one is expecting you to be one hundred percent perfect all the time, Like that's impossible.
But what's worse is doing.
Something problematic and then pretending like you didn't do something problematic and just pretending like you were perfect that whole time. Like that that's worse to me than coming out and saying I was incorrect. I saw this in a problematic way. I hurt people, and like that's exactly what we need to do, like own up to it and try to be better next time.
Absolutely, may I ask what led you to that realization You're saying you remember it, Like, was there anything a particular that helped you change?
I don't know if there was one in particular incident, which is why I say I remember the age I was as opposed to I remember the event, but there were several things that happened. I think that was I would say maybe thirty and for a few years before I was actually genuinely seeking forget. I mean, my daily prayer was God, if you're out there, creator of this beautiful world, I want to hear your voice, even if it's only to hear you tell me I'm damned. And
that went on for a long time. Finally I realized a lot of other things, and that became I think due to various interactions I had. There was a man that I occasionally ran into at the local store who didn't overtly bege but was desperately in need of assistance, and I actually realized I shouldn't just give him some money, let me engage him in conversation. And that kind of thing is what really started me realizing my own attitudes
that I've held, and of course I still held. I don't think there's any way to stop being racist if like me, you're a a CIS had white male, but you can realize that yes I am privileged, Yes I am racist. I need to be careful that I don't act privileged and that I don't act racist. Needless to say, there were plenty of times when I fell down on the job but hey, you try and do better. And as my mom used to say when she was in her sixties, I think I might be starting to grow up.
Yeah, yeah, good good on you for recognizing all of that. Like that takes a lot. And I know there are some people in the side chat that are happy, happy to hear about your journey and probably are in similar places themselves, Like we're all we're all constantly going through that journey and like constantly learning where we've where we've hurt people, and where we've messed up. And so I do want to applaud you for your effort and your
public acknowledgment of that. That's like, that is a very mature thing to do.
Yeah.
I think also something that stands out to me in the story is that being wrong doesn't scare you. And I think if we go back to kind of our previous caller, you know, with dodging questions and having a hard time with the idea that he could ever have been wrong, that there may be a perspective on this that he doesn't necessarily understand yet and getting real hung up on the wording of this hat white male and
where it's like privilege. It seemed very fearful to me very much like I can't be wrong because that will change everything about me. I'm not the kind of person who's wrong. I've thought about this before, you know, And I feel like in your story, it's just holding truth with an open hand, that you might be wrong, but you're still seeking how to be the most right you can. And I thought, I think that's really cool.
Yeah. I think there's a couple levels to that. When I was young, I was the kind of guy who had to be right, and even when I came to know I was wrong, I would still insist I was right. So I have sympathy to that. Like a long time to get out of that, But I think it was after I stopped being that way for the most part, that I actually came to realize there's two levels of
rewards there. The first is if you were wrong and you come to know you're wrong and you learn better, that's just that's so great that you learn something new. But even more important was the next level, which is you learned that you were wrong and then reflect on why did I come to that incorrect conclusion? What's wrong with my tool bag? What tool am I missing? Or what tool am I miss using that allowed me to arrive at any incorrect solution. And that's how learning how
to think that earned. That's one of the biggest things about life is living a reflective life.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
That being said, I know we've been talking for a little bit. Is there any other kind of point that you'd like to discuss before we take another call?
No, Actually, you've given me an opportunity to cover more than I originally intended to. So thank you.
That was This is a great call. I appreciate you. I appreciate it a lot. This is I think a really good discussion.
Yeah, what a lovely person.
Yeah, I have a good rest of your day, Tom. If we we'll talk to Tom again. That was a great discussion. Yeah.
I also, you know, I lived in Mississippi for a bit, and to be honest, like, there are people in Mississippi, contrary to popular opinion, that that are wonderful and thought and I think so often they have to go through a decent amount to kind of reach these points. You know, a lot of resistance from others, sometimes the history of
life in the church. Sometimes you know, recognizing racism in a way that's going to make them culturally sort of outcasts, but it's really I don't know, there's some nostalgia for me and just being like, oh yeah, there are lovely people. Just it's nice when they Mississippi has some lovely people talking on the world stage a bit more so.
Yeah, yeah, that's great.
And speaking of some other really cool people, Sophia, would you like to read the top five patrons this week?
Yes?
I would, all right? So Top five patrons Number one Oops all Singularity always Great, two Dingle Barry Jackson, three Kleevi Helvetti. I think I said that, I just have to run up to it for Brian Zipke, Zupka Zoop and five Ja Carlton, with an honorable mention to Amit k Pandy. So those are our our lovely top patrons this week.
And if you want to get on this list of wonderful people, you can go to tiny dot, cc slash, Patreon thh and compete for a spot on this list.
We do update the list every week.
We have some people that continually show up, and we're very appreciative of your ongoing contributions to the ACA. But if anyone else wants to, you know, fight for a spot, it is available through the Patreon. That's just another way in addition to the other ways that I mentioned that you can support this show. Something else that I do want to mention is that you can hang out with us afterwards in the discord for the after show. So if you want to join us in ad afterwards, you
can join us. The link is on the screen there a tiny sec slash ACD discord. Any other announcements, I think a.
Week.
Yeah, all right, and with that we will take another caller.
This is one of our.
Lovely friends we talked to a couple of weeks ago. D They them from Iowa. It sounds like you want to talk to us about some Mormons on your doorstep. Tell us more about this story.
D Hey doctor Dan, Hi, Sophia.
Hi, are you doing.
Hi?
I'm good, I'm good. You guys really rolling the day.
I'm enjoying the show.
Tell us about your story?
Well, I thought, well, yeah, and I thought that it kind of it really ties in nicely with your last caller and Sophia's cold open. Last year, I had a couple of young men that visited me weekly from the LDS Church and they were really lovely young men, and we were able to meet each other where we were. I never actually came out and said I was atheist to them, but you know, shared a little bit of my searching story in that and they were very receptive.
And then, you know, winter in Iowa, nobody wants to do that on a regular basis. So I guess this week the official new twenty twenty five missionary season opened, and I had a couple of new young men at my doorstep, and I moved on, you know, from my willingness to engage with the lunacy of Mormonism. I learned a lot from from the previous young man, but it just wasn't anything that I wanted to dedicate any of my time to any longer, as far as conversations and exploring.
And so I respectfully told these new young in that honestly, I I just was not convinced, uh that Mormonism is true or you know, real, and gave them some of my main you know, reasons for no longer wishing to engage. And they, unfortunately, these young men very were very negative. They received my uh, they received my comments very negatively, and I started looking for polite ways to you know, get get them away, just to have them continue and just you know, make a note that I was no
longer interested in conversation. And it just they took it very, very personally because uh and I and I did actually tell them I do not believe in Jesus. I do not believe in Jehovah. And one of them just got you could tell he had never spo oken to someone who didn't believe in Jesus before, because he was just incredulous.
He was, I can't if you if you, guys, anybody you think back to something that you took as a given, uh as an as a natural thing in your life, and somebody comes along and says, Nope, I don't believe in that. Like if somebody said I don't believe in gravity, you'd be like what.
Uh?
And uh.
It was.
Okay, yeah, so definitely, and so you don't believe in Jesus. And I mean his his voice went up and octave and a couple of decibels and uh. We we danced around that concept for a couple of more minutes, and I said, and then he said, well, what do you believe? And I said, why do I have to have a belief?
Yeah?
A couple of Bibles? Yeah, right, exactly, and then a couple of Bible verses came up, and this and that and the other. And so my methodology is to engage with people where they are, So if they're going to engage with the Bible, I'll engage with the Bible back. And then when I did that, that was even worse than saying I didn't believe in Jesus, because I don't believe in Jesus, but I still quoted the Bible. So I was blaspheming basically.
Well did they yeah, because basically you're Satan now, right, because Satan knows the Bible too.
Right, right, and he's like, you don't know anything, and blah blah blah. And so you know, these missionaries go out when they're like twenty something, after they've read a couple of after they've read a couple of Mormon manuals, and engaged in kind of like mock debates, and I, instead of being angry with these young men, I was really sad for them. Number One, that their turn, that their church sent them out so unprepared and that all
they had to hang on to was Jesus. And I was directly challenging that, and it was very threatening for them, very unpleasant for them, and I'm sorry that I I'm sorry that they responded to me that way, but I blamed their church for that because when all you know, they I understand the isolationism that a culty church imposes on their members because I was there, there was a there was a there was a point in my life where I had absolutely no contact with the outside world
except maybe when I went grocery shopping.
Yeah.
Well, and just like that, that script that they have to follow. And it's why too.
On this show, we'll get people that call in who are apologize students or there's some kind of missionary and they'll call in thinking that they're just going to use that same script that they use with everybody else, and that script doesn't work here. Like we've all read their script. We know what they're going to say when we try to get them off it tell us what you actually believe, like, and it's so hard for them to do that. And I agree that it's their church that did this to them.
They taught them exactly what words to say, like if they say this, you say this, And that's not how the world works, and that's not how a lot of people are going to respond to discussion. And I know it sounds like it feels harsh. It feels like you traumatize them a little bit, and maybe that's the case.
But sometimes with those people you have to shock their system a little bit, like they have to feel a little embarrassed, they have to question what they said, and sometimes that's a way to get them out or at least start questioning. So even if it feels harsh like it, I probably would have done a similar thing for them.
Yeah. I think also, and.
Like the prior, like your prior caller said that that we need critical thinking skills, we need you know, we need to And I've watched something on the Nonprofits earlier about the f fr F and American Atheists lawsuit and how the hosts were saying, you need to dig deeper and not just swallow anything you see. And uh, and I felt a real kinship with your previous caller, you know, because of that, and uh, and I was not being rude.
I did get you know, irritated a little bit, and I and I asked him, uh, you know, I did ask him. I'm like, why why are you getting so emotional with this? And He's like you're telling us we're wrong. That's really rude.
I mean rudeness.
You know, I'm not, I'm not I'm I'm not telling you you're wrong. I'm telling you why I'm not vinched. I think so tonight. Really, yeah, yeah, go ahead.
Rudeness is such a social thing, right, You know the number of times I've been told that I'm too much, that I'm rude, that I'm brash, or given the question could you have gone about that a better way, It's like it's always because somebody was, you know, didn't like the thing I said. And I mean sometimes I was rude on purpose got to say like that. I know that I cross some social boundaries sometimes, but it's like it's just a way to not have to listen, you know,
to just say like, oh, that was rude. You know, well, it's rude that you're knocking on my door at my home trying to tell me that I need to believe in your very specific, very culty book. And you know, when I think about these these young Mormon missionaries, I also think a lot about young scientologists. They're kept in similar conditions, they're trained in similar ways. They are are sent out into the world to be rejected basically as sort of a test of see the world is bad,
come back to us. We are the only good people. We are the only ones who are actually trying to help mankind. And they don't even want to listen. There's this really strong narrative that is married to ignorance. And then they're cut off from their families a lot of the time. If you read and listen, two ex Mormons talk about what it's like to be on these missions.
It's kind of painful, like they really aren't treated well and as a result, they're kind of you know, if you think about mind control conditions, you make someone miserable, you make them think the world is evil and bad, and you don't give them any out other than to do exactly what you tell them to. And yeah, it's horrifying to watch. You know, you got to wonder if someone's so threatened by critical thinking, what is it that
they're planning on doing? And realistically, we know, you know, they've been around long enough, we know that they want power, and these poor little guys are the victims of it.
I know the way you know when you you said, you know they're kept they're kept in isolation, they're trained, Like I mean, it's almost like they're training attack dogs and yeah, you know what I'm saying. I'm like, they're throwing them out there, like throwing a couple of fighting dogs into a fighting pit and see who comes out.
You know.
Yeah, I mean it is interesting when you have a religion that instead of sending their their best, like, instead of sending their preachers, instead of sending their higher ups who like theoretically went to seminary or went through some other training or were ordained in some way to like be that minister, Like, instead of sending out the religious leaders to do that, they're sending out the most young, the most inexperienced, the most the most new people out
to do that. It's like, are you really so like, if you're so confident in this hierarchy of a system, if you're in that the preachers, you know, the top of the food chain, why is like, why are you not sending your.
Best people out there?
Like if you really want people to be persuaded or whatever, like, why are you not sending your best? And part of it maybe too they it's of course a way to indoctrinate their younger people. It's a way to force people to obey and to get so in so invested in this organization and the fear of punishment, the fear of being ostracized, et cetera. Like, there are plenty of reasons why they're sending the young people out there to do it.
And it's it's not to be more persuasive. It's not to actually like I mean, of course it's a further the religion, but it's it's not to give their best arguments.
That's not the point of this. The point is. The point is.
To indoctrinate their own people and to have like friendly young people try to convince other young people to give into this stuff.
And it's just it's very interesting.
Yeah. Yeah, they're going to send them out there and say and then they come back after an experience like this and they will say, see, the outside world is dangerous.
The outside exactly.
We are the wells that understand you. We are the ones who will protect you.
And we mentioned too the attack dog analogy. Yeah, we don't.
We don't value attack dogs for their creativity and individuality, right, We value them because they are trained to do exactly what they are told. And when I think about the utter waste of human beauty and creativity and variety that is created when we essentially force this flattening for the sake of religion. You know, you can't on the one hand say that God created you and this beautiful world and you are part God and you're in God's image, and at the same time say suppress all of those
instincts and only do what we tell you. It's this very weird way to live, and it causes so much damage to those individuals. And you know, yeah, I wish I had a better conclusion than you know, but it's just a fucking tragedy.
Yeah. Well, and the last thing I want to say about it is, the next time you see a couple of LDS young man on your porch knocking at your door, maybe maybe be a little more tolerant. Just realize that they're still they're still in development, they're still developing, they're young.
You don't have those frontal lobes yet.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's why I love I love methods like street epistemology. I think I think SC is a great way to approach those people. It's like, you don't even have to be aggressive with them, you don't have to even give any you don't have to give any of your own arguments. You can just sit back and ask questions. And that's what And they're they're probably going to feel invited to answer questions, because that's the whole reason that go and talk to people, Like they're under the assumption that they
there to answer your questions about Mormonism. So take that, take that invitation, ask them some of those harder questions, but just frame ask questions. Frame it as innocent questions of like, yeah, what convinced you that this is true? Or like where did you find this? How did you arrive at this conclusion? Do you believe this is literal?
Do you?
Like?
You can ask those questions that we ask on the show, and you can keep it very gentle, and it's in their court then what they do with those questions and how they sift through that, and you might not get good results, Like in that moment, they might not openly start questioning it, but when they go home that night, they're going to have to come to terms with the questions that they were asked and like, oh, maybe I don't know how I got this information, or maybe I
only believe this because I was born in this culture, like how much confidence do I give faith? And is faith a good way to arrive at any conclusion? And I think a lot of those questions carry a lot of weight for peace people. So yeah, you don't have to be aggressive. You can just sit back and ask questions and that can do a lot of the heavy lifting for you.
Right right, Well, thanks for letting me share my thoughts on that, and I really appreciate you. Like I said, you guys are rocking it today, so I'll get awesome and give someone else a chance. You guys, I hope I'll see you at the after show.
Take care.
Well, yeah, well chat in the after show. Thanks for calling Indy. Always appreciate your calls. A and yeah, and we are right at the end of the show. But that being said, we do have the after show in Discord, and for people who didn't get a chance to call in but still want to bring something up, callin next week.
We're here every Sunday. Next week. I believe it's Christy Powell and who else is on?
Sure, that's a great question.
You can find that out later and surprise, surprise, you'll find out a mystery co host on next week. But we do have somebody in the basement here. I mean you saw him earlier, Richard Julliver the Welshmen. Bring him back on the show, bring him up in the basement. Have any thoughts on today's show.
Chid I I've got a few thoughts on Steve. Better leave them, said unsaid.
To hear more.
Regarding the moments, I, my wife was part of that cult for a couple of years. We had to take them to court to get hurt and the children's names off their lists of their books, because they don't allow you to leave so they can falsely inflate their numbers. While we were doing that, they sent a couple of missionaries around or I politely told and the people in the church, the people are lovely, by the way, they really are, are politely told to the missionaries. You know
that we didn't want to see them. I then sent an open message on Facebook so the bishop of the local Mormon church and I do not condone these actions. By the way, the ACA does not condone any action like this. This is my own personal opinion. I sent an open message to the bishop on Facebook for all to see, telling him that if he sent any more missionaries round to my house again, I would hand deliver them back to him, and I then got a private message back say no, it was all a mistake, they
didn't mean to come round. Blah blah blah, and then we never heard from them again. They are a dangerous cult and they should be avoided at all costs. They they are The organization is horrible. It's manipulative, it's vile. It is one of the worst ones out there, and it dresses itself up behind these genuinely innocent, lovely guys and gals.
It sends out to.
Kind of get people's get hooks into people. That is my opinion on the moments.
All right, yeah, that's it.
Yeah, any any other calls you wanted to hit on.
Yeah, yeah, we had a couple of great calls. Steve is, let's leave that instead and if.
You want to hear Richard's thoughts on.
Steve.
Look, this is this is the thing with Steve.
Steve said, you know, we weren't You're not allowed to have a sense of humor in today's society, Steve, We let you on our show. We've got a fucking amazing sense of humor.
Mate.
That's all I'm saying on that one. I'm fucking off, bye.
Bye, And and as far as targeting people with humor, I've been targeting Richard with humor like all day and he's only mildly offended every time I call him Welsh, So saying I'm actually saying Richard probably not Richard is is the type of person. He seems like the kind of person that would pay eight pounds for some cheese on some toast.
On the note of privilege, on the note of privilege, this is this is a serious point. On the note of privilege. What a lot of people, what a lot of cis White guys don't realize is that you know, And I mentioned I was on the show last night and I talked about this. What we what we have done is we have basically, if we if we view kind of Life as a game of dungeons and Dragons,
We've rolled and would rolling a ten sided die. We've rolled a ten for all of our attributes, and then we walk round slaying everyone thinking I'm brilliant, I'm fantastic, isn't it me? When actually it's just the look of the draw. You know, you've had the look of the draw to be born into a position of privilege where you're not undergoing what people like Ben and what people like Sophia and what people like my good friend Cynthia
McDonald are undergoing. That that society kind of prejudice against you. You're not aware of it. You're not aware of it because you're not in the position suffer it. And no matter how much we empathize, we cannot know what it's like to be in that position. So all we can do is facilitate people's voices or are in that position and say, look, we value you. Here's a fucking platform. Speak for yourselves, and that's the best way to do it, you know. Just just be there for people and give
them your support. But don't pretend that you're not privileged, because you are. We are, I am.
And make fun of you can make fun of each other, but make fun of each other to actually, like you can joke about things that somebody fucked up, like if somebody said the wrong word, Like if today's Sunday and I say like happy Monday, you can laugh all you wanted me because that's something I did that was funny and stupid. Like making fun of someone's actions is also different from making fun of somebody's identity.
Or someone's like.
Absolutely actually so they cannot let me tell you.
Yeah, yeah, make fun of things they can control if you want, and just but keep it tact full.
That's alwoome.
Any other comments before we wrap this up and head over to Discord.
Particularly head over to Discord.
Well again, actually no, we do have a super chat that I will read out from Miranda Rensburger ten dollars saying, great show today, lots of really awesome conversations.
Thank you and thank you Miranda Rensburger.
You are one of our VIPs, showing up every week and always given super chats.
We greatly appreciate you, and I.
Believe you bring Christy and Jimmy Junior next week. By the way, everyone hosting so yes, yes, Christy and Jimmy Junior, so make sure you're here from that because they're both fucking awesome people as well.
If anyone hasn't watched before and they're wondering why green things are happening.
Yes, these are love rings, sending them out to all of you, and again join us for discussion in the discord.
Tiny dots, that's the.
This is lovering sception and if you want some more lovering sception or want to criticize us for a lovering sception, you can tell us in the discord. We'll be there after this. And if you don't believe this is your community, we appreciate all of you being here, We appreciate having some good hearted, tact fully humor with you all. And if you do believe we don't hate you.
I'm just not convinced, dear one.
We want the truth, So watch Truth Wanted live Fridays at seven pm Central Call five one two nine nine two four two, or visit tiny dot cc forward slash call tw