We have entered the holiday season where we get to see the damage that religion does to families. For many, this is an incredibly hard time when those who are meant to love people most, even unconditionally, places set of ancient beliefs and rituals before their own family members. This is a season of giving, but it's also a season
of sorrow. If you're someone who has been alienated from your family because of differing values in politics, remember to stay connected to your community, and we hope that we can be a part of that. If you're one of those who thinks it's totally fine that religion is placed above those who we are supposed to love, then give us a call because the show is starting now.
Hello everybody, and welcome. It is December one, twenty twenty four. I am your host Objectively Dan and joining me today on Talkievan is the wonderful Sophia Spinna and Jimmy Junior. Folks. Welcome, Welcome back to another great week. Everybody snaps in the chat, give those snap emojis out for Sophia's intro. There coming in Hot. It's December, but she's coming in the hot, folks, so get ready for that How do you guys do it? How was your Thanksgiving?
It's good watch. Watched the new Netflix Hallmark style movie Hot Frosty, which is not just a dirty term, even though it.
Sounds like it is that at Wendy's What the heck is that does sound like it?
Yeah, it's like a woman magically makes a hot snowman come to life, and then all the women in the town are really into him and then he almost melts, you know, classic classic quality.
He doesn't have flame powers. He's just a very attractive He's a sexually attractive snowman.
Which is weird because he just came into consciousness like yesterday. So you know, that's a very it's a moral dilemma. Nobody deals with somebody with a frosty.
The snowman fetish got into the industry and was like, it's time we got to make the dream reality. And then this movie.
I love how the women don't even give the guy a chance to like learn, they're just ready to jump his bones.
This to me too, Am I just missing out? Is this the latest trend? What's what's it's?
Now?
The guy gains consciousness and he's thrust into this uh den of horny women.
That sounds really what happens to me every day.
I mean, you just gained consciousness.
Well, it's kind of like I get rebooted every day. I since it's like a matrix stuff. I don't know what I'm saying. I'm just I'm just talking out my ass. But anyway, Uh, this is talk Ethan, which is a product in the atheist community of US today five O one c nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation of religion and government. And this is a live call in show and we do, in fact have open lines, so if you'd like to
call us, you can certainly do that now. It's at five one two Fortune or call to your computer at tiny dot c c slash call th H. And we're just we're yucking at up here. But we do have some fun stuff that you talk about because every week we're asking you guys a question or prompt. It is the talk Heathen segment to me, a talk Talk Heathen segment, to me talk even to me segment. My goodness, I got distracted by the one just.
Get gain consciousness just right now.
Outside of the show, I have no consciousness. I only come around. It's kind of like that episode of Black Mirror, you know, where they have the little consciousness slaves. I just wake up every time a show happens. So that's that's my whole backstory. But we do have our talk. Heathen to me say, well, this is where we ask you guys a question or a prompt every week, and we had our top three answers last week. We asked you guys, what do you think Jesus would say upon returning?
And here are our top three answers for that. Number three comes from Miranda Rensberger, who says, when we finally noticed that Jesus came back, he'll say, yeah, I've been here for a while. Guys, why were you looking for a blonde guy?
I really like that one. You know, we wouldn't even know where to look. Most of the people who are believers have no idea who it is they worship. That's that's what that says.
Yeah, I've always I mean even when I was a Christian, like you have to know, like, yeah, he wasn't like Jesus was from like Europe, guys, like he was the least. I don't know what to tell you. But yeah, very strange that people have this idea of Jesus as being something else than what he would be. But number two comes from Monkey at typewriter who says, Jesus will say after the second Coming, was it good for you? And we're just we're starting off to we're five minutes in
and we are horny today. Guys, he's crazy. I don't know what's going on.
A Snowman movie.
Jesus is the real hot frosty.
Jesus is the reason for the season. Baby, let me tell you. That's uh, that's interesting, but very good answer Monkey type right. And number one one comes from James James l. Aarramer or James Larimer. I think it's James Larimer who says, what would Jesus say upon returning Jesus Christ? People take a guy's pulse before you seal him into
a fucking DOOMBI pretty good, Pretty good. And with those answers out of the way, I want to thank you guys for submitting your answers last week to our awesome prompt. And this week's prompt is going to be what's the difference between Jesus the Tooth Fairy and Sasquatch. So leave your best answer below and we'll read the top three for next week. But before we move on, I have to ask you, guys, Sophia, Jimmy, what's the difference between Jesus the tooth Fairy and Sasquatch. Anything.
There's some evidence for sasquatch.
Ooh.
I'm from the Northwest originally, so I feel like it is a little bit of a thing.
You're like, Yeah, saline snapping mood today. I don't know what's up with that, but yeah, no, I that's true. We got more video evidence of Sasquatch that we do Jesus.
Yea, still still Sasquatch. Largely mythological evidence is subjective, no proof. And here's my thing about these three, right, yeah, all three largely mythological, right, But if you go down from Jesus to Sasquatch, you get less extreme, right. So I want to start in reverse. I want to go Sasquatch really doesn't want much from people, wants to be left alone. Tooth Fairy willing to interact if there's money involved, there's a transaction. Jesus, drink my blood and keep my flesh.
What just happened? What just happened.
Yeah, it's a big jump from teeth to like blood, right, they're really requesting bodily you know, accoutrema.
But yeah, yeah, Now here's what I want to know. Is there a community, because obviously there's a Sasquatch community, right, Is there a community that does try to find video evidence of the tooth Fairy that I am not aware of that just exists south there, because that would be awesome. I would love to see really renders or people coming up with for that.
There's no tooth fairy. Where did all of these teeth I found from?
Huh? This is why the government is trying to hide. Okay, they don't want you to know. I have to mention money.
Completely serendipitous, not coordinated at all. But I was with my parents for Thanksgiving a few days ago, of course, and my mom gave me a note that I wrote to the tooth Fairy when I was really little, and it's because, uh, my mom forgot to leave money under my pillow. So I wrote this note to the tooth Fairy saying, dear tooth Fairy, you forgot to give me money, So tonight I really would like it if you could
leave me money for my tooth your friend Jimmy. Uh and so she gave that to me the other day. I thought it was hilarious. Yeah you should.
You should listen. You owed double now you owe interest.
I was expecting an indignant note, but that was night.
This wholesome. What happened to that, Jimmy, you know, with the wholesome Jimmy write in ours through the tooth Fairy. I don't know what changed.
You know, I realized Jesus was not real and I lost it. I just lost it. Now, if I had to write a letter to the tooth Fairy, you would not want to read it.
Man.
I'd write a very indignant letter to this creature. Yeah no, that's great. Leave your comments below, guys on what you think the difference is between Jesus, tooth Fair, and Sasquatch. And we'll read those top three answers next week. And before we take our first call, I have to thank the wonderful, awesome people that help make this show happen every single week. It's not just us three, It is actually a bunch more people. It is the crew that
helped make the show happen. There's our crew camp, a bunch of people on today, on this day of days. So thank you all for making it happen. And thank you to the viewers at home who watch and support the show through liking and subscribing and commenting, because that helps the youlgorithm. It makes people want to watch more of our stuff. So you guys are awesome for that. We have a couple calls in the queue. If I don't hear, if there are no objections, speak now or
forever holds your piece. We'll go ahead and get started with our first call. Ready to go, Yes, all right, let's do it. We got a couple of folks here. I want to see this one because this one I want to know where this one's going. I want to talk to Michael, who's calling in from California. Michael, Oh, dang, right into it. Holy grab Michael, you are live on talkie? Then how are you doing this morning?
Fabulous? Thank you. You know, as a child, I could not understand the story. It never made sense even then, so I just let it go. Of course, I went to Truth and Sunday School. But Sunday School. Now, when I was about eight, they told me I couldn't come to Sunday School anymore because I asked too many questions. You know, my hand was always up, and so they said, go to church. You can't come to Sunday school. So that's what I did, but not regularly. I just didn't
believe this story. So but my real question is, you know, God spoke a lot and talked. However, when it came to Jesus, the only thing I ever heard him say was, this is my son of who I am very pleased. Where does God give Jesus the authority that Jesus has taken? Like he said, you only get to the Father through me.
Yeah, I mean, I guess that's an interesting question. The whole premise is kind of shot when you realize, you know, any parts of the story could be you know, kind of made up at any time, right, So, like, I don't know, the particular details to me kind of don't matter, especially as you get later on to the gospel narratives.
There's an interesting chronology that happens when you find that, you know, the first Part's Mark being the earliest that most scholars consider the Gospels to be, and then Matthew and Luke sort of written around the same time, and then John. You sort of see this progression in like the tall tales that are being told about Jesus. By the time John hits he's basically a superhero. Like that's where you hear about a lot of the extra stories that happened with Jesus, whereas at least Mark is a
little bit more tame about stuff. So there's definitely a mythology that's being built about Jesus after his death and what he can do. As far as this story that you're talking about where God talks to him that happens during the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist, which is an earlier story that is found in March. So as far as like when God directly speaks to Jesus like in the Gospel accounts, I can't think of any off the top of my head, but yeah, that is
kind of interesting that you point that out. I don't know what do you guys think.
I'm no biblical scholar. I couldn't tell you one way or the other. I just always thought that Jesus's power was implied just by being the son of God.
So yeah, I think.
When I was a Christian, I think that's what I thought too. Had all of that kind of the rehearse evidence of well he fulfills biblical prophecy, which of course is bizarre when you really look at it. It's a very forced reading of prophecies to decide that they must
apply to Jesus. But that was something I know that was part of my construct of belief at the time, and I think so much of it too came from the church, right, Like when you think about stories of people who have any kind of miracle in the past two thousand years, it always feels very Jesus focused. And so when I was a person who wanted to believe,
that was something that I would turn to. So it's interesting, because you're totally right that there is not a point that I can think of either that is actually God saying hey, this is the dude, right. But it's interesting to look back and be like, oh, yeah, I just took it as a given and had all of these arguments for why other people should too.
You know, Well, good thing is a lot of people don't know during that time Jesus is the son of God. That's very interesting to me. It doesn't appear everybody asks him who he is, and it's like only Jesus knows this and his mother. I mean, what goes on there.
Well, that's not that's not specifically true, right, because well, at least within that what's told in the narrative, because the actual baptism occurs because legend bum the narrative perspective, John the Baptist does say, Hey, Jesus, this is the guy. He is the one that was prophesied about, right, and so that baptism occurs and occurs with other people seeing it, right, you know, because Jesus is the son of God. So it is like implied, at least in at that point
that he is something beyond. But like, I don't know, like it's it's it's it's not something that everybody universally would agree upon.
Right.
If we had a prophet that came today and said, hey, I'm the next coming of Jesus, we would all also have some some doubts. Right. The Jewish people at the time obviously had doubts that this Jesus guy was this guy that was being fulfilled prophecy right in text. You know, there's a reason why Jewish people are still around today. It's because they don't think Jesus is that guy. So it was always controversial at least his appearance there. It
was never widely accepted. I think even Christian scholars would recognize that, but yeah, it is. It is kind of interesting because it's like, Okay, you're the guy. How do you convince people you're the guy? I guess you do miracles? But outside of that, it's not like he like sent a message to everybody in the world, Like he didn't tell that the native people's and other praises. He just kind of went around, you know, the Middle East a
little bit and told everybody there. You'd think if he was the guy, he would want to bring that to everybody, but that's not how that worked out.
However, after Jesus died and was resurrections, then the apostles len around creating miracles too, So that doesn't make Jesus really spectful because they were making miracles, they raised people from them again, they give things.
Yeah, but they I guess they. I guess a Christian might say they weren't without sin, though you know, I don't know. I'm not a Christian. It all doesn't matter to me.
And it's kind of one of those like here we are going for it right now.
Yeah, I'm playing both sides here, Michael, that's how I win.
Where authority come from?
Where is Jesus already come from? You had to ask Christian, Yeah, Jesus has your authority over my life right now. I could care less about the opinions of Jesus and his followers. Yeah.
And Michael, I'm getting I'm getting like a little confused about are you asking in the context of just like playing devil's advocate, or are you asking because you are honestly trying to figure out the answer, or like, is this something you believe.
I'm not.
I'm not kind of clear on what your what point you're coming from.
Okay, I do not believe he was the son of God. I don't believe in God. However, as a person that doesn't believe, I think that we probably know the Bible better than the everyday.
Christian and I am that's what they say for this.
Answer, and I can't find I've asked Christians and they walk around and it's like nobody has the answer.
Yeah, so as far as I know, like Jesus talks about being the son of God in the Gospels, right, So there's like the literal text and then there's historically what we can talk about and are you asking you know or are you are you differentiating between what the Bible says versus what we think happened in reality, because you're saying, well, it wasn't Jesus doing these things, it was the apostles doing these things, and the apostles made
up all these things. But in the Bible, in the text, if we take it at face value, Jesus is the one doing these things too. And yeah, I would say that me being a former Christian, the implication was always that Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Book of Isaiah right in the Old Testament, and now because he is God's son has powers of God, which of course Jewish people would contest and to dance point,
that's why they're still Jewish. But what I think the answer is there, you're looking for something a little bit more obvious.
Huh.
Yeah, because God said that shall have me. No other God's performing, and yet everybody's pretty e gugeous as though he were God.
Yeah.
I think that's why the Trinity was constructed to some degree, is that it enabled people to worship Jesus and not feel like they're placing someone before God. And there are Christian offshoots like the Remnant Fellowship I know in Tennessee where they talk about how like they don't believe that, and that's a big deal because other Christians would point out that essentially, if Jesus isn't God's son, then his sacrifice didn't really count. So a lot really depends on
this idea that Jesus is God. And so I guess if you were looking for a source of authority, it would have to partially be that that Jesus must be God so we can worship him. And so his sacrifice was big enough I guess to cover all people from sin. But I think also most simply, you know, where does Jesus get his authority? He doesn't. I think that's kind of what you end up with a good point.
I mean, Sophia brings up an excellent point about the trinity and it's construct later. But yeah, what you just point out as well, Michael, is a criticism that Jews have laid upon Jesus because there is no actual text that indicates that the Messiah figure as described in Isaiah is supposed to be the son of God. That's something that Jewish people bring up in their arguments and saying that Jesus isn't it. It's like, that's not a thing.
That's a Christian idea, right, that's not a Jewish idea that the Messiah would be the literal son of God. You know, there's there's Christians have obviously interpreted the text that way, but Jewish scripture is notorious for having many different interpretations by many groups of people that made different times. So you know, your results may vary on that.
Well, it's just the whole story. It's just ba when when there were the three of them were on across, which should have been a state, not across anyway, Jesus turns to the one and says, on this day you will be with me in paradize. But Jesus didn't go to paradize that.
Yeah, I mean, I'll be honest with you, Michael. I could talk about Bible contradictions with you all day, but you're apreacher to the choir here. You know, you're like, you're not going to convince us anymore that God that Jesus ain't the one, you know, So I don't know where else you want to take this call, Michael. But like if you just want to say, like, hey, I don't think Jesus is on God, Like, yeah, I agree with you. I don't. I don't see that to be necessarily the case.
You know, I wonder if anybody knew where he got his authorities, because I don't find it anywhere that he has the authority to say I am the son of God and of I have the power to bring you to God over.
I mean, it is John the Baptist. The answer is John the Baptist. That is the answer that people would would argue for. I think if I was a Christropologist, because John the Baptist is supposed to be a good guy, and then we're supposed to rely on his words allegedly because he was also kind of doing some stuff. So yeah, I think that's what a Christian would say.
I'd say, if you're a Christian watching call in, and
if you have an explanation for this, then great. I think we're also in that space where it's very unsatisfying to be looking for an answer to question like this, because millions of people believe in these things, and so when you actually ask, like where does this come from, it's tempting to just keep going until you can find a reasonable explanation because so many people can't possibly believe something that has no real even claim that it's true.
And yeah, it's really unsatisfying. But I think that I think you've you're doing a search that I am very familiar with, which is to look for a reasonable explanation for why people buy into this when I don't know that there always is one.
Yeah, Michael, I think we are going to go ahead and let you go because we do have a ton of other folks that want to speak to us. But I do appreciate you calling in and giving your perspective. And yeah, it is kind of an interesting question, like what is where does this authority come from? How did they come to this idea that he was the son
of God? Because obviously the Gospels had to be written by people who believe that right, or at least had come to that narrative at some point, right, So where does that origin come from? I think that's more akin to biblical scholars that could probably give better answers than even we could. I will say this. You did make the comment that, oh, non believers tend to know more about the Bible, and I think that's true. In America
maybe globally. I don't know if that's the case. I've had some ignorant conversations with the atheists just as much as I've had with Christians. It doesn't happen as often, I'll give you that, but it definitely does happen from folks who think they know it all when they get all their talking points from YouTube videos and not from like people who like I don't know, write books. So you know.
So you're saying don't get all their talking points from us, is that?
No, definitely don't.
But I mean, you know, I think that's that's such an inflated, uh interpretation, because I think a lot of a lot of people who were once believers find their way into atheism by reading the Bible.
But that in no way makes them an expert on the Bible. Like I can attest to that, like I read the Bible. I've read it front to back, I've studied the Bible. I forgot more than I've probably covered, you know, in my years. So I I you know, I'm no, I'm no expert in I couldn't say I know it better than a clergy member. So I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, true, that true? That we have a bunch of folks who want to talk to us today. I'm so excited to talk to all of you guys. But real quickly, before we move on to our next call, I have to tell you guys about our brick frund raiser. You've probably heard about this. We've been doing a fundraiser to help literally rebuild parts of the ACA building and we want to highlight some of the bricks that come
from donations from viewers like you. Our brick that's featured today comes from Casey, who says future atheists, you freed us all humanity lou Dynasty foundations, So thank you for your purchase, Casey, And if you'd like to get your own brick, you can do that. It's a tiny down CC slash ACA bricks to help literally rebuild the building. Another way to support us is by sending in super chats. And I know we've got a couple of super chats that we need to read out and we'll do that
in just a second. If we get ten super chats for five dollars today, folks, this is the challenge. Ten super chats with five dollars, we will show you never before seeing photos of us, Me, Sophia and Jimmy when we were children. And this is going to be happening, I think across all of the other shows we'll see, but for now, you get that today. If you want to see us in particular, we need to get those
donations in otherwise they're not happening. We're putting them back in the vault, the same vault where they lock up all the Disney movies and they release them after a couple of years. That's what we're putting our pictures. So you're never going to find them unless Disney Disney.
I think American Girl Doll do that now too. They're going to be sitting there, Samantha.
You want to see my photo? You want to see me?
Really?
Do you really want to see it?
I would say both of your photos are very strong, very strong pitch. Yeah, so yeah, please please consider it donating for that, and I'll do these other announcements in second I will do these super chats right now that we have a super chat A five dollars from Katub who says, woke up atheist again. Braisee Cod, so thank you so much.
I'm partner.
You have some cod you know, creative.
Another one from Nero who gave five dollars and said, I want to see Junior, Jimmy Junior and finally know what his hair color is from a chaos screblin in the Bible. Belt damn. And then another one from ten dollars from Miranda Ronsberger. I said, damn because of this one too. He says, what color is Jimmy's hair? If atheism is a religion, bald as a hair color. Yeah, everybody's talking about Jimmy's head today. Yo.
Yeah.
Let me tell you something. Five times, five times I have picked my son up from daycare and other kids have pointed at me and said, look, no hair that is true. That is true.
You know.
I get this. I get this everywhere I go. And I can understand why there's a story in the Bible with God, with God sending bears water for making fun of the balls now and you know what, Miranda, you better watch out for bears now. I'm just kidding. We love you, Miranda, We love you.
Oh my god, wow, wow, amazing. Thank you guys so much for the donation so far, and again specifically, we're working for those five dollars donations. Five dollars if we get ten five dollars donations. Today we will release the vault and show you the true color of Jimmy's hair. So look forward to that. And man, that's so awesome. That's really awesome. I'll do the rest of these announcement later because you know, we got so many of them. Let's just go ahead and go to our next call.
I think, gosh, we got a couple of different ones. Do you guys have a pick? I know you guys have them. I like you like to. Okay, you gotta vote, Sophie, you want to to.
I like surprises, so okay, all right.
Well then this won't be a surprise, I guess because I will pick number two. We have Steven calling in from New York. Steven, you are live on Talk Heathen. What's going on?
Hey? I believe magic exists because a lot of things in nature are too well organized, like, for example, a flower, like a rose, for example, grows the stem grows out of soil, and it's form, and a bud forms, and then it blossoms, and when it blooms, the pedals have a symmetrical placement, and and and it's too it's too elaborate to be natural. Why because the things are natural, they shouldn't be.
They can be elaborate. Natural things can't be elaborate. Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, it should if it's natural, it should just be dirt and soil.
I mean.
Besides it being inexplicable, Like I have.
A question, Hold on, it is explicable, right, Like? Why why are you saying it's inexplicable?
I mean I've never seen it explained.
Okay, Okay, that doesn't make it inexplicable.
Why you've never seen why the why flowers are radial? Have you ever looked it up? Have you ever consulted any resources on it?
Not for that specifically, but I did look up some stuff about I guess physics.
You guess physics. I mean that doesn't sound like in depth research. You owe yourself a little bit more.
Yeah, Like, if we're gonna go around and Steven, if we're gonna go around and say everything is built on magic, I think we at least need to look into that a little bit, right, Like we should probably look into what other people have said about how flowers came to be, because I feel like that's a pretty big deal, right If, like the whole world runs on magic that might change how I do things a little bit.
What is the incentivizing future of nature that that.
It's not about to Uh, that's not okay, Oh, Sophia, go go okay. So it's not about incentives. I think that sometimes when we talk about how things have come to be, we overinflate this idea that, like, you know, a flower wanted to become symmetrical, Like, there's not that desire when it comes to natural selection or how things have come to evolve. When you look at something like a flower, you're looking at something that has it survived to this day? Right, it's it's fairly. It must have
been efficient, it must have outcompeted other things. And if doing things in a symmetrical manner for a flower that was the most efficient, then that's the flower that survived. So we look at things in nature that are chaotic or disorganized and say that that I don't know, say that maybe that's it gone wrong. There are things in nature that are disorganized. I think of how much inefficiency
is in nature. I think about I feel like I'm becoming known for talking about pregnancy, like how often miscarriages happened because the fetuses is not viable, and that's spontaneous, and it happens so much more than people realize. That's that's disorganized, that's chaotic. There's quite a bit of chaos here. So when we're looking at something that is successful, like a flower, like a baby, like you know, choose anything in nature, we're looking at something that's organized because that
was the way that it did survive. I'm not sure if I'm being as clear as I would like to be, but we can look at things and say, wow, that's incredible, but it's billions of years to become that incredible. It's not like pop up flower done that would feel like magic. But we have reasons to believe that it didn't occur that way.
But like, how can you prove that that the world, just the earth, just the things in the earth just came about through nature. I think that's an assumption as well.
We've got a couple of different things here. There's the idea that there's a concept that Young Earth creationists talk about, which is well in Young Earth creation is I don't
think Young Earth creation is bringing this up. It's called Last thursdayism, and it's this idea you can't prove that the Earth wasn't creative the last Thursday, right, And people will be like, well, what about all this evidence that's a dinosaur bones stuff like that, And people say, well, that was just crazy to look like it was old, right, And so yeah, I can't prove to you that things on this Earth weren't looked like to grid that they were old, or that there weren't patterns or a history.
But I can show that there at least has the appearance of things having a history. And we can do that with plants and animals. Right, we have an entire evolutionary history that occurs, and we can at least observe some of the mechanics that do happen in nature that help us form the things that we see. Cells don't
just change. Sometimes they change seemingly randomly, but sometimes they change because of specific environmental factors, and sometimes they change because of pressures other than their environment that that that occur in these things. And and and the same rules apply to cells like they do to people, like they do to everything living on Earth. We have a history. There is an entire field of paleontology that just looks
at how flowers evolve on this earth. And and you can find some really interesting things by people way more knowledgeable than us on us And I'd rather hear what they have to say and hear what their conclusions come to than just kind of throw it all up in the air and says, well, I don't know, so it must be magic, right, because that's kind of like what this sounds like. We're just kind of saying, oh, well, this is kind of weird. I don't know how this works. Magic must be the miss explanation.
When I looked it up, it.
Said the.
Kinetic energy moves atoms, But like what makes the energy?
Uh?
What causes it of motion?
That?
I mean, that doesn't yeah.
But what why? So here's the here's the problem I have with that. Let's say you don't understand right, or you don't know the answer to that question that you're asking, why is it magic? The answer? Why? And I'm going to equate that to God? Why is God the answer? And I like that you used plants, So I mean,
let's just look at plants. Okay, five hundred years ago, we had no idea, We maybe had somewhat of an idea that you could probably put plants together or drop seeds and they would come up, but we really had no idea about how that worked, and people attributed God to that. Right, and then we took some scientific methods
to explain better explain the cycle of a plant's life. Right, we figured out that a plant can be broken down into cells, and it has excuse me, it could make its own its own food, It uses light, it has photos synthesis. And then we didn't really know much more beyond that, and we went, well, that's what God wanted. And then you know, we broke it down further. Okay,
it's got cells. Then inside the cells it's got molecules, and the molecules are formed by atoms, and the atoms have sub atomic particles, and we don't get any further than that, and then we go, ah, because God wanted it that way. You know, this is the the argument
from from ignorance. Really, you don't you can't answer. You have to stop at some point, so you just tack God at the end, no matter what it is, you just tack God on at the end, and you really don't get any closer to explaining what you're talking about. And so you have come to a point where you can't get beyond that point. I think I have come to a point in the example I gave I can't get beyond it, but I don't insert God. So I guess my question to you after all that, why do you insert God there?
Well, I mean, it doesn't it can't be like it can't things can't come together and form these types of things can have a composition like they do.
And how do you know that?
How do you know that?
I think Sophia just gave you a really good explanation about all of the imperfections that exist out there that seem to lack organization. So how do you how do you negotiate between those two points? You're saying that things are so organized they must have a creator. Well, A, we don't know that organization leads to magic or a creator, and B there are so many things that are unorganized or disorganized that they don't you know, that would render
your argument incomplete or incorrect. How do you how do you justify.
That maybe the consciousness is faint, maybe it's a weak consciousness. Maybe you know, maybe it's it doesn't know how to make it perfect.
I mean, at that point, we're just kind of in fantasy storybook territory, you know, where it's just like, oh, it's a there's a being that's trying to operate the best interest of the world, but chaos is tearing it apart instead, And I'm like, okay, like why not have it be zeus? Like I think that there's kind of it's sort of an unseerious conversation at that point. It sounds like you have a good premise to a fantasy novel. But it also sounds like there's a lot of your
questions that you could google. If you're wondering about how plants evolve, there's a ton of information out there that's really interesting. There's a ton of great scientific educators out there who can tell.
You about it.
I think that the more you try to bring up specific things, it's kind of like you're sort of missing our basic point, which is that assuming God because you personally do not know is pretty faulty logic.
Yeah.
The reason, I mean I called it magic because I don't really anthropomorphize it, like I saw God was like more personified. But but yeah, you might be right. Yeah, I mean I looked up a few things on Google, and I don't know, I wasn't satisfied with the answers.
Well, there is a I guarantee you right now, there is a there's one paleobotanist that watched this show that is screaming their goddamn head off right now saying, hey, look in, look into the field of work that I do every single day for a living, right, I guarante, like, give science a chance. Okay, give it a little bit more thought, right, look into some more stuff. I promise you you're gonna find some more explanations to stuff that you thought maybe didn't have explanations, but but maybe do.
And maybe you won't have all the answers. Maybe you'll still have some questions. That's fine. But in terms of like plant evolution, come on, man, you gotta you got you gotta put some more effort into that before we jump to the magic train. Right at least that's my opinion, Steven. So, I don't know any other thoughts you had for us before we let you go today?
Uh not really?
No?
Okay, Well, thanks for calling, and you know we're not trying to talk on you too hard, Stephen. But when you're talking about literal magic, right, like, you can't use the observations of science and be like, oh, this has to be impossible because of science, Like, no, there's other things to science that can tell us all kinds of things too, right, Like, it's just very interesting that you do at least have some principles of science, like you do think, Okay, this seems to be impossible based on
some kinds of observation. So there must be some sort of method by which you've come to your conclusion.
And I and I.
Guarantee you there's people who have been doing a lot of work every day on stuff that you wouldn't even begin to think about. I wouldn't begin to think about that have answered a lot of questions that are, you know, maybe not applicable to our daily lives, but are important for grander sort of knowledge. Schema that would love to tell you about the evolution of flowers. So on that note, let's let's keep it moving. I do have some super
chance for us. Another one from Miranda Rensberger, who gave five dollars and said, on the upside, Jimmy, at least your head is a nice shape. Miranda is starting Wars today.
I think that's nice.
Yeah, she feels bad, she feels bad that she insulted my baldness and she.
Doesn't want to get attacked by bears.
Yeah, yeah, right, so she's given me something nice. I can work with that. Thank you, Miranda.
Have you been a piece, Jimmy? Have you been a piece? You think so?
I think I'll pull off God's bears?
Okay, all right, but.
You still have that ability, so just FYI don't miss jim seeking he's got that power. Number. I don't want to say number. We have another one from Jim Costs who gave nine to ninety nine. Thank you so much for that and says how much to not see pictures?
We'll find out. Yeah, yeah, it was.
One thousand dollars and we won't show pictures. That's fine, or have it or one hundred one hundred and wait we get we're doing ten five dollars donations, right, so that's what fifty So if you give us fifty five dollars, then we won't do it. How does that sound rightly?
I liked the goal of a thousand? Why not keep it?
Eye?
Why not?
I don't know who's just giving out one thousand dollars on a Sunday afternoon, But hey, if you got it, why not?
Yeah?
You know?
But anyway, good to point out that we are volunteers for the Atheist Community of Boston as a nonprofit. We do not personally receive any of that money, but we donate our pictures anyway because we were about it. You know, activism is about two things, call in shows and get pictures of yourself for donation, rallies or whatever, and that's it. There's no other forms in which you can partake and real quickly, I do have some other announcements that I
should probably get through. We have a channel that houses all of the shows of the ACA in audio podcast form. If you want to check it out. It's a tiny dot cc slash an podcast baby. There you can listen to all of the latest shows from the Atheists Experienced, talk Ethan, Truth Wanted, the nonprofits, and anything else we got on that one channel. So listen to that if you just like listening to us and not looking at
our faces. But of course, the ACA also wants to know what is going on once unit of what's going on in our community, and for that we've got an updated website for that. You can go to an Atheist Hyphencommunity dot org where you can learn about the organization itself. It's Paul, and how you can get involved in maybe
donating your baby pictures to be shown. Just kidding. We'll probably do that probably more like you know, call screening and video editing, all kinds of stuff that needs help around here, and we appreciate all the help that we can get. So thank you guys for considering. I think that's all the announcements I got. I any personal announcements, guys, it's true. Any other stuff you want to announce before we move on another caller? Anything?
No, I'm trying to think of anything really exciting.
Okay, jump at the calls.
All right, Okay, never mind. That was a bad idea and I acknowledge it. I'm just gonna move on.
It could have been great.
It could have been great. It was not great, but we will move on. We have Jackie who wants to talk to us from the great state of Mississippi. Jackie, you are live on Talk Heythan. What's going on much?
How about for you guys.
I'm just just just hosting Talk Keithen live live callin show that happens every Sunday.
I had a pretty good Thanksgiving I didn't you know. No, Unfortunately I only had like there were well, I had one.
Slus a pie but it wasn't the best.
But yeah, so anyway, I just called them to discuss was that?
Oh I just said, I just went off because like, I'm sorry that your pie wasn't good. But yeah, Jackie.
I would say you deserve more pie, but then you're about to give us your your take, and maybe after your take, I'm not going to think that you do deserve more pie. So we'll we'll, we'll find out, Jakie, what'd you want to call us about today?
So I just wanted to call in to talk about de Kart's trademark argument for God's system. So so I have to go over for the premises for you guys or are you eiser of you guys?
Are? Oh?
Yes? I mean even if we all knew, it's great for the audience to know as well, you know what premises you're working off of. Plus you may have a different understanding than what we d understand of it. So yeah, go ahead, give it, give it out to us, lay it all out.
Okay, So Premise one, Decart argues, and I don't think this will be comfortable with anybody here, that there's an idea of God as a perfect being or God is an infinite being. I think we can all accept that as a legitimate promise.
That's no, But I can't go I can't. I have to stop right there, because you said God is perfect or God is infinite, and those two things are not the same thing. So which one is it? And which one are you going with?
Well, we can just say God is well, we can take God is instance for this purpose. Or God is the most powerful being.
Okay, so God is perfect or God is infinite, or God is the most powerful. So I just have an issue because what I don't want to happen later is that you start intertwining and using these, uh, these three definitions interchangeably, right. I don't want you to be using perfect and infinite and all powerful later in the conversation.
For I will, i'll, I will chime injo for Descartes argument that kind of that's kind of the argument a little bit. There is this kind of thing here. I think traditionally it's it's said that God is a supremely perfect be I think is the.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
I'm going to cross these out and I'm putting supremely perfect.
Yes, well, because existence is part of the thing. We'll get to that anyway. Premise to we'll move on, Jackie premise to.
The premise to is essentially that things that are caused like a lesser thing can't cause a greater thing, or something which is less perfect can't conse some which is more perfect.
Okay, that's not my understanding of Dascards argument, but that's fine, we can work with that.
Okay.
Well, here here's as perhaps a better way to phrase it, so to minus in Descartes, the second premise of Dascards argument is that you have a god as conceived as a more as an infinite all perfect being or supremely perfect beings. Is the exact phrasing can't be caused by a finite substance called second prim.
So so so Descardes argument is the ontological argument, right and so not. I'm not trying to hijiackt the conversation, but just like maybe maybe just to speed things along here, right, this is descardess whole idea is this. His idea is like, Okay, we have a supremely perfect being, and a supremely perfect being has to exist because like that's what it means to be perfect. A supreme perfect being has to exist in a perfect in reality, because that's how we can
conceive of a perfect being. And therefore God exists because he's a supremely perfect being. Now like for an atheist, the problem becomes kind of self evident because we're just kind of defining things into existence, right, We're kind of giving these qualities, these attributes that may or may not be real and aren't really based on anything observable. I've never observed a perfect thing. I don't know what a perfect thing is. I don't know what it can or
can't do. And so this is why kind of this this argument kind of does it work in Descartes world. Descartes, you know, obviously brilliant mathematician, right, Like, he has this whole idea of math being outside of ourselves and stuff, and so I think in his world God being part of like kind of mathematics in a way kind of makes sense. We have these sort of abstract ideas that seem to conform to reality, right, and so God must
be kind of like one of these ideas, right. He has to be existent because we see math in our everyday life. Of course, philosophers have talked about the existence of math and the implications of what it says about reality. Right, But for most of us we don't find that convincing because again we're just kind of defining stuff without like really knowing why. Again, I don't know what a perfect being is. I don't know what it entails. I don't know why I think it should exist in reality versus
non existent reality. Does that make sense?
No, you didn't accurately represent they cost argument correction, because the reason is because descant argument is that the cause of an effect is as real as a cause. So the cause of the effect of a supremely perfect being has to be as real as So we have this idea of the supremely perfect being, which is a cause the cause, No, the effect, sorry, the effect is the idea. The cause has to be super the perfect being. The idea of the supremely perfect being can only be caused
by a supremely perfect being. Therefore supremely perfect being has to exist. So like it's not so well, we have this idea of a perfect being. And you know Manipap's world, I think you're concerning with anthems of version of the anthological organ the commerson of the anthological argument is just the idea of the supremely perfect being has to be caused by a supremely perfect being.
It's the effect with the cause.
Just as an aside. That's not what I've been finding. I'm pretty sure that that Dan's representation was accurate, at least to what I've been finding anywhere just now. But this idea that only an idea of a perfect God could come from the existence of a perfect God, is that in summary? Kind of what?
Right?
And here's the confusion. I think we're talking about Daycard's ontological argument and Daycard's cosmological argument. Right, you're talking about the cosmological one is for causes. You're talking about his cause argument, because that's different.
I'm talking about history. I think it's called the trademark perkument.
I'm not from I it could be called the trademark argument. I'm not formally trained in philosophy. I don't know if that's that's what it's caused, but that that's a I'm I'm I'm trying to make sure I'm not missed for American here, But yes, it may be talking about his cosmological argument, which is the idea that everything has a cause, and therefore this idea of God has a cause, right, and so if God is infinite in everything else, then he has to be contained in sort of that idea.
And therefore, Yeah, so that's that's a little bit of a different thing.
Yeah, a question, man, man, I just asked you, like Jackie, why are you bringing this up if you don't even really know what the argument is?
No, I know, I don't think that's right because because we might be misspeaking here, I don't know if because we I might I might be the one that's misunderstanding Jackie. I want to give Jackie the but no, but I'm not.
Saying that that your that your idea is conflicting with his. I'm saying that the Jackie is saying, well, I think it's this, and I think it's that, and and honestly, I'm getting lost in kind of why it's important. Why does a Jackie just tell us what Jackie thinks? Because I'm, you know, Descartes not here to argue with us.
Okay, that's fair, that's fair. Yeah, So maybe we rephrase it as whatever Jackie thinks is true, right, because the argument should be true regardless of whatever daycard defines it as right. That's fair. Yeah, maybe let's start over here. Let's let's try to do one, two and three again. And instead of me interrupting you and asking you if I think it's right or not for each premise, why don't you go through those premises again. Let's let's try it again. How does that sound, Jackie, We're.
Wasting a lot of time. I told you this is a trademark argument. You can say the version of homological argument. I did not mean the anthological argument. And I've already gone through the premise. A there's an idea of a perfect being be the effect has to be as real as a cause to the cause has to be as real as a fact. So the cause of the idea of the supreme perfect being must be a supremely perfect being. See, we have this idea of the supreme and perfect being
in some people's minds. Therefore that it has to actually have.
A cause, and that cause is God.
So okay, So if this is true, then it would be It's just like, let's just take that idea of there wouldn't be an idea of a supremely perfect being without a supremely perfect being. If we just take that, then if having any explanation for this idea that is not a supremely perfect being, that would dismantle their argument correct.
Well, would do you disagree with the promise that.
There must be that every cause must be greater than its effects?
Yeah?
Do you disagree with that?
Well?
Of course, of course I disagree with that. Have you ever played dominoes like there's you know, you can end up with a much wider ranging effect. And I think if we're looking for a reason why we have this idea of a supremely perfect being, there are lots of explanations for that that do not require a supremely perfect being. And I absolutely don't agree that the cause that the cause must be greater than the effect. I think that
that sounds sort of like nonsense to me. That sounds like something that sounds like true when you assert it, and it fills offical argument. But I can think of, you know, there's other phrases that contradict it. If we're just going to argue through sayings like the wings of a butterfly in China cause hurricanes and wherever the end
of that phrase goes. So I don't agree with the premise, but I also feel like if we're trying to get to the conclusion that God is real, then just saying, hey, we believe in a perfect God because it's nice for us to imagine that there is control, that there's perfection, that we're a social species and we're able to take perspective by being a social species. That is a survival advantage which requires imagination, which leads us to imagine things
that may or may not even exist. So I guess I have a problem with pretty much every part of this, and I don't find it particularly compelling.
Okay, so if you just disagree with the premise that to cause opacity as great or greater in the effects, and I suppose that's just something which would disqualify it from the beginning because much. Yeah, So, if that's the case, I guess that is like a a subum metaphysical question which I don't know if it's pulsifiable definitely.
Yeah, Yeah, I don't know.
So I'm I'm a little lost on why we have to have like, we can't have this idea of a perfect being without the perfect being first existing. I don't know how that how do we know that that is true?
Descartes the thing was like like it had the idea has to originate outside of yourself, you know, because we're not perfect beings. I guess I don't know. I never really understand it either, But that's that's kind of thinking. I don't know if that's Jackie snaking on the subject though.
I mean, I think it's a fine argument. But if you would just disagree with the premise that like things which are less great than something can't cause a greater thing to exist, perhaps I'm not a physical question which I would have to look more into the arguments of guns.
For me, the definition of great is subjective, and I would have to ask how are you how are you defining great? And and then we have to go from there.
Yeah, I would again, I would also disagree great necessarily subjective. I think we can probably say some things are better than other.
No, I mean, but that's a topic for a different time, Jackie. I you know, that's that's something that definitely falls within the purview of this show. And if you want to talk to us about it, absolutely we'd love to do that. But I do think that we have some other callers that want to talk to us. So is there any other comments you want to make before we let you go.
No, I suppose I would just have to look more into the arguments about the problems with claiming you know, effect and cause and greatness in relation to that.
But I really want to hear what you like, dude, love your love your calls, and I really liked today's call. But specifically I want to hear what you have to say, because you're always coming on and talking about some philosopher and you're clearly doing the work to understand these concepts, uh and and form your own opinions. I really want to get to know what Jackie uh, you know, what Jackie's perspective is. So maybe next time.
Okay, good toning guys, Thank you Jackie. Yeah, I appreciate you giving given props to Jackie because I don't I agree. I don't want to waste time with us being confused on who we're citing what. You make a great point. If the arguments sound, we should just be able to present the argument as it is. We don't need to cite people. For it's important to cite people if we're
talking about people's specific versions of arguments. But if this is part of your argument for what you might find convincing for yourself, then you should be able to put in your own words, right, So.
Yeah, I think I also it's interesting to me when folks are looking for truth entirely through argument, like if you can just argue well enough, you can arrive at reality. When I think that actually addressing reality working within the concepts of science, the things that we know now that
matters too. Expertise in areas that are not philosophy also matter and are worth exploration, And so I think that it can be really tempting to just go back to who we think of as these special and renowned philosophers. But that's not the only way to know things, and it might not even be the best way to know things, so or to come to know things or study reality.
Yeah. Yeah, and again like just trying to give context for like why Descartes thinks the way he does is because if you understand math, you gain new understandings in math through defining axioms, right, Like it doesn't come from necessarily the observable world. It does come through finding axioms and working within those axioms. And I think that was Descartes's kind of idea with God. It was like if we can figure out some of these axioms. Same thing
with how we know thisself. I think therefore, I am he's trying to find like the bare minimum thing to work with, so we can figure out other things based on that, and so like in that context, it makes sense if you look at it from a modern day perspective, where we rely so much on the observable sciences, right come, we don't go to our understanding through math most of the time. For most things, we figured it out because somebody did a study somewhere on something and we learned
something about it. It seems kind of strange to talk about God in that way. We would want to say, Okay, well, what are the observable things about God? But I don't think that's what like Dycartes trying to do there. Whether you find that convincing your eyes up to you personally, I don't. I don't think you can just define perfectness and greaterness, you know, all that stuff. That's pretty subjective, right but we Yeah, I don't know, I'm going on a rant here. Yeah.
Well, I also think they handwaving away hundreds of years of scientific progress, like not saying that's a year. Yeah, But I think that sometimes jumping back to philosophers who were absolutely brilliant, but we're in a really different context. We have no idea if they would say the same things today.
That's true. I wonder if Jay Kartes would still hold that. Maybe he'd be like, nah, actually that was my early stuff, you know, the second album. The second album would have hit better.
Totally different sound, Yeah.
Totally different sound. We were working on a new thing anyway. I don't know, I don't know. All right, all right, good stuff, good stuff all around. Let's talk to some more people. Okay, this is an interesting call that I don't know. Uh well, we got two really good ones. Oh, we'll get everybody. I don't know what am I saying. Let's just let's just dive right there. We got Eduardo Edwardo coming in from Brazil. Shout out to Brazil, Eduardo, what's up as you?
Actually? But that's cool, that's pretty cool. Uh well, I had actually I called because I'm sort of confused about uh your not yours, because it's there's no ass moral to be I mean, how you guys deal with that? Because I was watching uh your your your broadcasting and I found something pretty interesting. One of you are almost
closed to early early Christians and Judaism. Early christian is not not Christons Christianity as we understood today, but as we were supposed to have understood earlier, which is debatable. But what we have and others are not are almost tied, like almost you know, what's what's what's allowed, was allowed, what's forbidden forbidden? And I don't know if you guys have a midway point or pnfused. I'm turning from a place of bonancy here.
Yeah, I want to learn.
Yeah, also I also if you want to discuss that later, I don't know that the to Mike's question, I mean the sort of most given.
All right, well let's start with the first one. And I think this is a good round robin here. I'll start here, and I want to hear Jimmy and Sophia's take after. But like, like, so, Christians didn't invent morality, right, Jewish people didn't invent morality. I think they they lived in groups of people and they kind of figured out some stuff that was right or wrong and what was
important to those people with that group of time. So we may share similarities to other groups of people because we're also people and we have to deal with the same sort of you know, problems that any group of people does. The problem is, do we have a systemic, systematic form of morality that to all atheists in all situations. No,
all atheists come from different worlds. They come from different contexts, cultures, and backgrounds that are going to affect the way that they think about their own sense of morality, so that there really isn't a universal morality that we can come to in that regard. We may have some similarities, and we may have some broadly even agreeable, systematic things, but like, it's never going to be perfect. And the truth is it was never perfect for the Christians or the Jewish
people either. They also have changed over time just as much as we have, if not more so. So it's easy to be confused because if you grow up in a religion that tells you this is the way, the truth and the light and nothing else makes sense, you might be confused why these other things kind of make sense and then kind of don't. It's because there's never been one true moral system that has been solved or has been worked out for all situations, and anybody that
tells you otherwise is a liar in my opinion. So anyway, that's my take. Well, Sophia, how about you.
So I think that there is no one answered or to where atheist morality would come from, because there is not some atheist group that just sits down and decides and publishes here's our moral beliefs. I think of that. Yes, I am, I guess not part of that gang. So so I would say that my beliefs about where morals come from is simply that we're capable of empathy with others because that is a positive survival trait for a social animal. Socializing helped us survive, so we're able to
develop empathy. They kind of roll in together, progress together. As our social groups become more complex, discussions of morality also become a lot more complex. I think that for me personally, I became an atheist partially because I had started trying to work on my own moral reasoning and realize that so often Christianity, as I was, as it had been taught to me, as it was as I could participate in it around me, violated a lot of
my personal moral tenants. That came more from a standpoint of just acknowledging human suffering and wanting to diminish human suffering, particularly for me personally that of children. I ended up being more and more expected to make compromises or to argue that somehow the Church or the Bible or God and defense of these institutions was more important than what I actually had come to believe was moral and true
without God, which comes entirely from empathy. So I would say that that's for me personally more where it comes from. But I also think that there's the constant working out of morality is an advantage of atheism because you're constantly considering what am I doing? What is right? And you should be anyway, at least I am seeking out opinions across a wide variety of perspectives to help inform.
That Yeah, Jimmy, your turn.
Yes. So I don't really have much to add to those things. I certainly agree with what Sophia and Dan had to say. So I just want to kind of maybe spark a little bit of interest for Eduardo here. But you know, the idea that morality is somehow unique to religion, or to Christianity in my case, because I
was a Christian. So I'm just going to talk about Christianity is just a product of people trying to create this kind of ancient system, trying to order society based on rules and laws and trying to find a way to basically govern and to create order. Right, But if you go down any street in America or elsewhere, you'll probably pass one to five different churches from different denominations, and they all have different viewpoints on how things should
be done. And morality is this ongoing discussion, this ongoing argument about what should and what should not be. And theists, while they say that morality is kind of provided by God, they can't even agree on what should or should not be, which is why there are forty five thousand different sects of Christianity. So to say that, well, I'm not sure where atheists get their morality from, I could very easily
turn and say the very same thing about Christianity. I am not sure where theists think they get their morality from. And I can actually point to an archaeological record of different religions that have popped up all over the Earth, that have used religion to create power structures ten thousand years ago or even now. And so something that I want you to think about there is why religion and morality are linked. That's what I have.
Boom, all right, that's three people pontificating to you. Eduardo, what do you think about that?
Right?
No, actually I agree with you the last one, or you know, I actually agree. Uh. What makes it sort of confused is, uh, I don't think that moral cunsule religion, but I think that uh, religion is and maybe it's
starting out to be but starting not to be. But it's used to be a necessary way to since we didn't have much knowledge about the world, not that we have that watch now, but a way to kind of gather it is because it's it's a it's a religion or reasonally the words uh, you know, get it together. But yeah, they create our instructures. And I was never really religious. I was a feast, but I was never okay with with religion, especially because you know, I had
a grandmother. I have a grandmother in a day that our Shoova witnesses, you know well, and I pretty much looking on the inside there and while there are most people there, they're honest, but well, you know, I let's say I had a close look at that, and I know that that churches do that, but we used to have those tales, those uh which folk or that got us together, and now I think we're at the end of our childhood as it is, and I think most, I think some of you are a feists, are going
to be the ones that are going to lead that because you're going to have to think on where we find it, because it's almost instinctive look to look at religions to find that moral guidance. And that's why I'm interested because I'm not I'm a fast, but I'm I'm not fast from a relief that believes that most rituals are actually things that we used to have like boys for like a better analogy, and now we need to start to space with them because now we know more supposed to.
Yeah, I think I think it one. You have very kind things to say about us, but the truth is we're all activists for different reasons. I'm interested in talking about the power structures that religion gives. Right you're in Brazil,
you know this. The Catholic Church is could technically be considered one of the largest criminal organizations in the world, and yet that doesn't stop somebody's grandma from going and donating every single Sunday, because of the comfort, because of the community, because of all the other things that provide. The religion can cause people to do terrible things for good reasons, right for terrible things, for benefits that that that you know that they don't necessarily implicitly mean to do.
They don't mean to do wrong, they don't mean to do harm, but do anyway because of the power structure that exists. That's the reason why I'm an activist. There's a million different reasons why peop or activists and why they think this stuff is important. I don't know about us leading the charge on anything. You talk about any other opinions we have, and you find out why we're so infamous for being like a bag of cats. We
don't always get along on a lot of things. The only united front that we tend to have is that, hey, maybe this whole religion thing we should kind of reconsider just a little bit. Maybe, So I don't know, I don't know, but you know it is worth at least pondering and at least figuring out, Hey, why am I here, Why am I going to this church? Why am I supporting this thing that exists? And is it actually harming people, is it always good? I think the answers to that
may give you pause, but that's my take. I don't know you guys thoughts.
I think that the future would be better whether if those in charge, whether theist or not, were consistent about trying to act as ethically morally as possible. I think that requires a certain amount of questioning of yourself and truly try to make the best decision that one can. I think that religion can get in the way of that. I think that what we see right now it's a bunch of theocrats who are really thinking that they are
doing what's right. I would argue that they are not reasoning about it particularly hard, and they're more tempted by the power. But I think that honest exploration of what is considered right and good is a good thing for leaders, and I hope that we can do that and can challenge each other to do that. I don't think that gets you elected. I don't think that that leads you
to being a leader, unfortunately. But I think that you know, we we reason almost as an act of hope, that it matters that we consider what is the right way to act.
Yep, yep, yep.
Sorry, I was having a bit of a delay here. Now I gotta tell something about president though, talk about the Catholic Church. Yeah, they are corrupt. I actually I had the not always say the pleasure, but the opportunity of looking at religious really close. And you know, but the thing is most conselics here they are either they have more and more religious actually, or there are something called non practicing conflicts, which is people that are Catholics but they don't don't do to mess.
It's there's also a sort of syncretism religious syncretism here. But yeah, I think we have to think about that because I think now we are getting to a point in the world that we are getting divided, to a point that nobody gets stop to anybody else, and they have to be very careful about that.
Yeah. The syncretism you're describing in Brazils is quite famous, right, because of its uniqueness. It has a there's a cultural identification that comes to the people of Brazil. Then you would not see that you would not see in other countries that are Catholic because of the Catholic Church's attempts
to sort of capture the people there. Right, it has to kind of adapt in order to survive, and people kind of come up with their own interpretations in order for that to still survive and yet still give lip service to the church as a structure and as an institution. It's interesting how a religion like that can sort of adapt to its environment in order to retain its power there. And it's something that I think a lot of people still study and think about it workout. The same thing
happened with in America too. By the way, everybody here says, you ask ten different Christians what Christianity is, you're gonna get twelve different answers. I mean, that's just how it is. That's just how it always is going to be. But there's a lot to that. Unfortunately, we do have some of the callers that I want to take, and I will go ahead and let you go now. But a Eduardo, I've enjoyed my previous conversation with you. I enjoyed this
one too. I'm glad that you feel comfortable talking to us about this journey that you're going through, kind of thinking thinking about some stuff. Maybe you're not quiet on our side yet, maybe we're two I don't know something for you, but I'm glad that you're spending that time with us anyway, because it is very thoughtful, very thoughtful that you think that we're you know, worth talking to about anything. Really, But yeah, great call. Any thoughts on that call, Gang.
I something stood out to me where he said, you know, it's it's just natural or it seems to be like the reflex to look toward morality or look toward religion for morality. Yeah. I mean that's part of the process. You know, that's the indoctrination. You're told your entire life, especially from a childhood, that that's where morality comes from.
And that's how that power structure creates a lifetime client, a lifetime minion by getting you while you're young and infusing you with this idea that morality comes from God
that is actually not true. And I appreciate him thinking that people you know, like us, I would say that that at least challenged the view of God will will help other people, because I hope that I'm helping other people by letting them or serving as an example as somebody who did challenge the indoctrination and who came out on the other end, you know, not more indoctrinated, but a little bit free of what I was told was the truth. So yeah, I think that that's what really stuck.
That's the shocking thing, you know, the reflex, the default is to look toward religion. I hope that default changes.
Yeah, I also wonder if that default would be quite as strongly ingrained if there wasn't. On the other hand, the threat of eternal damnation. You know, I think that hell really, I know for me as a little kid in particular, causes you to, you know, focus in on religion as the one thing that will save you from being tortured forever, right, which whatever that means to you in your five you know, is what it oftentimes will bank on forever. So yeah, I agree.
In general, religion tells you two things, what happens after your die and who you're allowed to have sex with. That seems to be the kind of through line in all of them in my observations. But I think we have time for at least one more caller, if not more.
We got to hit the top five patrons.
Guy, Yeah, you're so right. I'm so behind. I'm not looking at the chat from the crew who's telling us that we need to get to the top five patients. Since you're so prepared and ready for that, Jim, would you like to read the top five patrons?
Oh boy, I of course would love to so our top five patrons. Oops, all Singularity, that's number one, Number two, dingle Berry Jackson. I like what you did there, dingle Berry, going to number two. Three, k Levi Helvetti, four left in the leaves. Five, a name I've never read before, but I'm happy to see up on the on the list,
Brian Zupke and then honorable mention Jonathan Hall. Thank you to everybody who donates to us on Patreon, and if you want to have your name read on the air, please consider supporting us at tiny dot c c forward slash Patrin and folks, don't forget we're taking super chats today. We got to get we got to get some more super chats in so that we can show very unflattering pictures. We've got three of us lovely people.
Yeah, we've got about ten minutes here, and we still need five more super chat donations, five five dollars donations. All else it's going back in the vault and you're not going to see it until Michaeliser decides to do another release. You know, still going with the Disney Vault metaphor. I don't know why, but we do have all the callers who wanted to talk to us until then. So now's the time for you to get your donations before Sophia.
Do you want to pick the next call? Because you know, Jimmy kind of got one, and I feel like you should get one.
I really do, Philly. I like surprises. I was even playing a game the other day and you get to choose which side you debated about very silly things.
I choose. I wanted it. Yeah, I actually want a surprise for you is that you get to pick the next call. So go ahead, and you know, take your shot.
I may or may not actually be signed in right now to be I that and be like, okay, I'm not going to explicitly state.
That, but it's projective. I didn't think that message. She was doing such great subtle messaging to me, improvag no, don't let me pick, and I ignored it. I was like a steamboat just going Titanic straight into the iceberg. That's what just happened with.
My keys, and I want people to hear that. It's the whole thing. Anyway, Now you all.
Know, all right, Jimmy, you're signed in. What do you think you want? You want to pick the next one? Then?
Yeah, we're going with Steve in Nebraska.
I knew it. I knew we're gonna go Steve. All right? Is up?
Hey?
Hey, Jimmy, uh Dan and so get Thanks for taking my call. So I was calling about recent studies suggesting dark energies weakening over time, meaning that the universe is eternally cyclico rather than having been created. Are you familiar with this?
No, by dark do you mean like dark matters or.
Is it dark energy? So, according to dark energies meethroscopic instrument observations of red shifts, which is distant galaxy light and quaser light stretched out by the expansion of space.
Messi precisely measures this expansion rate of space by using veryan acoustic oscillations sound rings, which are density fluctuations in the early universe were sound waves rippled through primordial plasma and printing a visible distribution of the galaxies today, acting as a standard ruler for measuring the universe's expansion and Desi's first year results find dark energy state of equation negative one, which is dark energy's pressure for dark energies energy density.
Right, hold on, hold on, hold on, pressure is consisting, yes.
Dave, hold on, hold on, listen, man, I'm no, I'm no brainyact and I know a thing or two about radar waves. And I know that measuring wavelengths and and and measuring you know, waves in general can give you an idea of you know, how things move and how far away they've come, so where they're going or how far away they've come from. So on that note right in the In an effort to not confuse me, let's say that we're able to measure the expansion of the
universe by looking at changing wavelengths over time. Okay, how does that relate to dark energy? Because I do not know what dark energy is.
Dark energy is what is expanding. It's a counteract to gravity. It's what's in the universe.
Okay.
When you take the deak Use observation of data, it's it's it's in line with the cosmological constant cold dark entergy matter model. But when you take the data with cosmic microwave background survey data and supernova survey data, the equation of state of dark energy is get less than negative one. Suggesting that dark energy is weakening over time. So what's the good means that the universe may be cyclical in nature rather than having been created.
Okay, so the premise, it seems like dark energy and dark matter are sort of two halves of the same coin, where dark energy pushes the universe further out. This is according to the Harvard and Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. This is what I'm looking up right now, and that dark dark matter is a gravitational forest, dark energy is a
repulsive force. Basically, it seems like, I mean, that's an interesting thought that like dark matter would be slowing I have not or sorry, dark energy I guess would be slowing to be honest, when you first called them, like, are we talking about witchcraft? So I am so not the expert on this, but it seems like, you know, it's interesting things to study at the far reaches of the galaxy. It also seems like there's a lot to
be looked at. Like from my understanding, a lot of physicists don't even agree on how you should deal with dark matter self, and so the opposite of it, I imagine there's still quite a bit of ambiguity.
Yeah, I think I think for me, my question is, so what you know?
So?
And I mean that, I mean that respectfully, Steve, Like, Okay, let's say we find out that the universe is cyclical, So I mean, what did we just accomplish there? I don't I don't know that.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Iftive it may give us more AMMO to say that, hey, this universe thing actually is just a natural phenomenon and isn't the part of a divine creator. So there's something to that.
Maybe maybe Yeah, I'm still saying that. I would say that either way though, So that's because I don't have I still don't have the God, the prime mover. I don't have the thing right from the beginning, from the beginning anyway, Like, I'm just not sure how the argument changed and what that does for humanity to be, Like, all right now it's now it's cyclical, it's no longer linear. What did we achieve? And you know what, I'm I'm genuinely approaching this as somebody who is like not familiar
with this stuff. So forgive me if I sound like I'm unappreciative or whatever. I just I think I need more education and.
Something the work. I mean, it's all initial It's I might be jumping the guns, but I think this takes the prime we were argument away from thedism. What do you guys think?
I actually that's initially what I thought of been there. Yeah, And if it just goes around in circles itself. I do think that if someone believes in the prime mover argument, they are not going to buy this. I don't think that it will change the minds of people who because then they could also ask, well, what set the cycle in motion? Right like, I think that that would still be where they might come from also in what I'm looking at. So I just like this is just interesting.
I actually, as more i'm reading about I'm probably going to nerd out about this today. I am not a super big brain science person, but I just think it's really fun. There is reason to believe it might be a variable that we actually there's all it will. All I'm finding is that there's reason to believe that the dark energy has been faster in the past, so not even that we can observe its swing down, but that
it has been faster. And it's also possible that it could speed up again because we so misunderstand maybe or don't understand what it's really doing, which would change a lot of our models and ideas of physics. And so in that respect, I think it's kind of cool to
see that we're still uncovering how the universe works. I think that, yeah, it probably doesn't have a lot of impact on my day to day, and I don't think it's really going to change a lot of the big arguments for against God, particularly if it turns out to be variable.
The thing is, if you talk to Young Earth creations, half of them don't even believe in dark matter and dark energy anyway. A lot of them are just say, oh, these are made up by astronomers because they can't account for anomalies that we observe in the observable universe, right because like red shift and stuff, the stuff that we figure out is like, hey, this is how we know stuff is being a lot of Young Earth creationists don't
even say that that those observations are real either. So you know, you kind of have to already be a believer in dark energy and dark matter for it to really convince you one way or the other. But Steve, I still think it's cool. I appreciate that you brought this up to the table. We do have some other callers here and we want to try to get at least one or maybe two more folks before we before we end today's show. So I'm gonna I'm gonna drop you out right now. But thank you for calling in
and appreciate talking to you. That was a cool topic. I say, I don't know, I don't know. Maybe I'm not the most relevant to us, but I'm no. I'm no big city astronomer. I don't know the ins and outs of this whole stuff. My knowledge of astronomy. I took one astronomy course in college and I've watched some kurzkaz At videos. I think that's the extent of my education. Not Jay.
Yeah, mine is that my husband watches PBS Spacetime and then tries to explain it to me. That's that's basically what I like.
That guy, guy with the beard, That's like, yeah, I know that guy.
It's really interesting. I mean, I like, just from a standpoint, part of how I stopped being a Christian and even a Young Earth kind of Christian is just wonder at the universe and what we can find out through science. So there's a part of me that it's just the excitement at discovery and at how science can explore things that actually led me down a path of just more reason in general. So I guess for me, I'm like, there's you know, there's virtue in spending time just being excited.
You know, He's like, no, bring out the bears.
Yeah, bears. Bears are always an option.
Okay, I just wanted to Well.
I'll tell you, I think Sophia nailed that one, because have you ever spoken to a theist. I mean, they'll yeah, of course, who set the cycle in motion? Right, that theists will wait for the scientific community to do all of the work over decades and centuries and go yeah, but god right, and so it really won't matter. And so that's kind of my frustration.
Well, we ken Ham saying, were you there again.
For our purposes? For our purposes as debate lords, it doesn't matter? I say, yeah, I think the I.
Don't want to think of myself as a debate It's terrible, isn't it.
Anyway, Okay, let's see if we can get at least one more, maybe another. Maybe we'll see, But I think I want to talk to Shaquille. Shaquille calling in from England, asking us why would God be okay with the concept of money. I want to hear your take on this, Shaquille. Go ahead, you are alive on talk Heathen. Shaquille, you are alive on talk Ethen. If you're there, speak now or forever. Holds your piece, because I will have to let you go otherwise. Sorry, Shaquille, I know you've been
waiting for a long time. You probably went up to go to the bathroom or something, and now it's it's too late. I'm so sorry. But we do have another call here. We're going to talk to d who's calling in from Iowa. D is asking how can an imperfect being imagine a supremely perfect being? And how does that help improve a society in chaos? Interesting premise, du feel free to expound on that.
Hi all, nice to talk to you again. Yeah, what was the philosopher? It wasn't I keep wanting to say, paths.
Yeah, we're so excited to tell you.
You know, we were so busy googling things earlier and now you know totally.
Oh my, but it's completely circular reasoning. I'm thinking of a god.
Therefore, God exists, but God can only exist because I'm.
Thinking of them.
Yes, And.
Really the whole premise falls apart because the being thinking about the God is imperfect, So how can imperfection imagine perfection?
Well, there's a reason why Descartes isn't known as one of the great theologians of his time. Like, this argument that is presented to us today has been criticized before. We're certainly not the first people to break it apart, and it's not one of his better well formulated thoughts or ideas. There's reason why people think of Descartes as the think therefore I am guy and not the existence
of God guy. A lot of people, the scholars included, don't find this super convincing, right, for reasons we've already talked about. But Descartes was like, nah, this is this is the key, This is it right here? So I don't know. Yeah, it doesn't make sense to me either. How can we even understand what a perfect being is? But that's kind of Descard's point, though, to his credit, his thing is, well, we can't understand it, but we have an idea of it. So where does that come from?
It has to come from outside ourselves because we're not perfect beings. That's kind of his whole his whole stick there is I cannot convince ourselves.
Yeah, I cannot define it, but I've got the vibes. So therefore it is really ironic to me also that a lot of folks who will use this argument that atheists just want to be their own God, well also essentially use arguments that just invent God because they thought of him. And I find that a little bit funny.
Yeah, which is like, maybe we have some better Like maybe God just has to, like I don't know, write me a letter at least, or just like talk to me. I don't know. I just feel like that's gonna be way more convincing than just well, if I think about it real hard, I know that he's out there, so I don't know.
My main point is that old philosophers are dead and they tweet they can't they can't help us. They can't help us right now. Okay, dey can't you know, pastoral, all of these guys, they can't help us right now. We're in a situation where, uh, you know, in a little over a month, we're going to see.
Let me think about this though, de you. I mean, you say, maybe it's not helpful to us as American broad society, but like, how many of us has started our journey questioning things and figuring things out because they read Plato's Allegory of the Cave right, Like how many people have discovered an entire worldview that first started because somebody, a philosopher, asked them a question that people just hadn't
considered before. I mean, yeah, is it you know, are the individual philosopher I'm trying to think of, Like, you know, is explorations of myriological nihilism going to help fishermen in Taiwan?
Know?
Like, it's not obviously useful for everything in our lives, but it is useful for at least considering things that maybe we hadn't considered before. And I do think there's value to that. No, I don't think Descartes going to solve all of our issues or Blaze, Pascal or anybody,
but they are still valuable to us. And I think there is a reason why we should continue to look at these guys because they do say something about the human spirit, if anything, which is that if we think about stuff enough, maybe we can figure out the world that's kind of a radical premise in and of itself. In Christianity, we're taught that the world is set, that there is a God and there is a devil, and they're going to fight it out and it doesn't matter
because it's all there for us. Whereas philosophy in general kind of says and works under this idea that, well, maybe we have to be the authors of our own destiny and figure things out and think things through and find our own solutions to problems that may or may not come from a god. So I don't know, maybe I push back on that. I think that there is some value to it, but that's just my take. I don't know what you guys think.
I think that I very much sympathize with the idea of just being like, who cares what these guys thought? You know, there's a because I think so often folks are turned off by philosophy, particularly in online discourse, because it's brought up like, well, this old ancient person said this, therefore women belong in the home, or like some bizarre kind of justification, And I think that sure has more to do with the individual who's making these arguments than
it does the actual idea and arguments. But I think I do understand the temptation to sometimes just be like okay, but like, why should I do that because some guy two thousand years ago said it, which I think sometimes people replace Jesus figures and religious figures with philosophers with looking for another source of authority, and they decide that that's going to be like these old smart men, which
is cool and interesting to study. I definitely, though, sympathize with the point that you just made about, you know, kind of what it says about the human spirit and the experience of being human. The name I've selected Sophia Spina. Spina is Forced Spinoza, you know, the guy who was excommunicated from the to the Jewish community in Amsterdam in the sixteen hundreds because he started to advocate for secular government. His arguments are still incredibly relevant today. I clearly find
him inspiring, and I think that matters. I think we can also actually very practically argue that. So I'm sort of working in the mental health field, and a lot of mental health theories are are really based on old philosophers. Existentialism is a counseling theory that has to do with how you you know, create how you find meaning and then you know, constructivism is also used in counseling and like how you actually create that and how it's built
through society. So they are very there are very practical applications, and I very much gain a lot from this. But also I do I am sympathetic to being like fuck those guys, you know, on occasion you could say both, I.
Feel like fuck these guys, but also they are kind of valuable sometimes I'm okay with that.
Take what's good to the rest, right. Yeah, yeah, I don't think it's a contradiction. I just think it's sort of like a these things can coexist and definitely definitely do.
Hell yeah, okay, yeah that makes sense. But I was actually really interested in Jimmy's comment that you know, he's he's interested in the power structures that religion has created, and THU of those power structures, I think maybe extension I could I could suppose possibly the GIV you could have gone on to say, you know that these power structures are reaching into places where they don't belong, you know, like a secular government, and.
Yeah, yeah, well they're these these ancient power structures. Yeah, so these ancient power structures over a period of centuries have increasingly been challenged by other power structures that have
popped up, like secular governments. In our own time, we're seeing corporations, Uh, we are seeing transnational organizations, and we are seeing international organizations or non governmental organizations that are popping up and they're creating their own power and they're rendering the church more and more inefficient or necessary.
Right.
So, yeah, that that plays into why the church has to change so much. We've talked about it. I think Dan brought it up a little bit earlier. You know, Uh, in the case of Brazil, Brazil being a unique kind of mixing of cultures and just having to change along
with those cultures because otherwise they lose their influence. You know, there was a time where religion was the sole form of government, the sole power structure that ordered society kept things going, and that has dissipated and kind of all but disintegrated with the rise of other power structures, and
you know, they still try and gain their influence. We're seeing that in the United States now, we're seeing more right wing Christian organizations reach into the government offer their financial support in return for an upholding of their traditions and values, and unfortunately, we're seeing a large swath of elected officials giving into that power structure and helping to revive it when it was actually in decline. So yeah,
I mean that's my take on it. I think when it comes to let's say, Catholicism, they've been fracturing for a really long time and they still continue to fracture, and they're not as effective as a power structure as they used to be.
Yeah, yeah, yep. But if you want to explore power structures, philosophy is also a good way to do that too, just saying yeah, that's like the entirety of postmodern literature in the twentieth century, Like a lot of it is about power structures.
You know, and d on on on your first comment, you know, I kind of sat back, you know, because there's three hosts today. You know, there's a lot of talking, right, we could we could mostly Dan it's you when there's two hosts. So yeah, Chris, so right, let's just let's just call it what it is now. But seriously, d you know, there, what good are the philosophies or the philosophers of the past. I mean, think of the people who stood up when nobody else stood up, right, think
of the work that they did. I think Sophia, you know, talked about this a little bit, but uh, people that were burned at the stake, you know, or people that were threatened with those kinds of things because they had
the gut to challenge it. I, for one, you know, feel like I'm standing on the shoulders of giants, you know, just because I feel like we're progressing in the right direction by challenging these power structures that tell us, hey, this is the way, and we could say nope, you know, you're not the way.
Hell yeah, hell yeah. That's all the time that we got. Any last last remarks you want to make before we let you go.
No, thank you for your views. It's definitely helping me take a longer view. And yeah, I think I'll spend some time doing some more reading. And thank you guys, it's been great talking to you.
Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, Thank you, d thank you for your call.
I mentioned something really quick before we end. I just want to acknowledge it. Today is World Aid's Day, and want to just remember that so many folks are not here with us today because of bigotry that led to a lack of public informa, a lack of research, and the fact that, for oftentimes very religious reasons, folks were okay with the death that were happening in the gay community.
And so just putting that out there that today is you know, I started by talking about it being a bit of a day of sorrow, but I also think just remembering that there are people who will try to remember you, that this matters, that it matters that we keep questioning and pushing forward. I just wanted to throw that out there because it is a day to remember all those things.
Yes, thank you for bringing that announcement into the end here, because it was something we said we wanted to do earlier and we almost did get to it by Sophia remembered and that's why she's on the team. But I want to point out that I want to say thank you for to everybody that supports the show in all the various ways that you have. There are other ways
you can support the show. We mentioned one of them, which is the Patreon, but of course even just liking and subscribing and leaving a comment is a great way to support it. And last but not least the super chats as well, which I have another one here which was a dollar ninety nine from Buster Bear said what led me away interacting with Christians, So that's a take that I think a lot of people can agree with. Unfortunately, folks, that does mean the vault it's getting closed. It's not
coming out today. But next time we will see if those pictures will come out. Maybe if all three of us host together again, I don't know, we'll see what goes with that, but next time we'll maybe hit that goal. But we appreciate all of you guys that donate it anyways despite the fact, because it does help the atheist Munium Austin and it tells them, hey, talk Heathan is a show that's worth supporting. So we appreciate you doing that.
And if you're going to comment today, also you should comment on the prompt this week, which is what's the difference between Jesus the Tooth Fairy and Sasquatch. Leave your comment below, and the best three answers we will read next week. And discord, I think some folks are going to be in the discord after sure make it today, but Sophila is gonna Yeah, I got an appointment at Men's Warehouse. I gotta go to h Iron. Go, but Sophia is going so thank you so much, Sophia holding down.
The fort in the background, I have to give a reason to My teenage daughter is watching my toddler while I do this. I have to go relieve her. I don't want anybody to think I'm rejecting you. I love the After Show.
I I I pray that Jimmy doesn't reject me every single day, mostly about the Bears thing. I think the Bears scary, but also his love is is something I desire. I don't know where I'm going with this comment.
I just love the idea that there's talk, there's going to be talk e than lore, that Jimmy controls Bears, and then that's just going to be how that goes.
Now, I'm I am okay with that rumor. That's something happy to support.
That he is like an Erson? What what like erson a? That's what bears are? What I'm trying to think of an Erson a mage or something some.
Sort of drewid of some kind of that's simpler.
I think Jimmy's just a druid. Yeah, our eventual d and d campaign. We got to write this down. I'm a paladin because palad Dan and then Jimmy's drew it. So there we go. All right, Okay, enough enough talking, even Laura. Let's let's get this thing wrapped up, folks. If well, we'll hang on, well almost, I'm getting my I'm getting my things mixed up here. If you don't believe, this is your community, and we appreciate you being here. If you do believe, we don't hate you.
We're just not convinced, just not convinced.
There's those love rings coming out, giving them all to you, guys. Thank you to everybody watching another week's episode of Talk hethan this has been Jimmie Junior, Sophia Spina and objectively Dan coming to you, uh this Sunday. Remember to Uh, I'd say remember to always keep on the truth. But that's a different show. We already did the We already did the outro. Let's just come here.
We want the truth. So watch Truth Wanted Live Friday at seven pm Central. Visit tiny dot cc slash y t tw and call into the show at five one two nine nine two four two, or connect to the show online at tiny dot cc slash call tw