Last week was Halloween, and this week equally as unnerving. Those of us in the United States have a major choice to make on Tuesday. There are those who believe that they have an eternal being telling them how to run their lives, and because of that, they have the right to tell others how to run theirs. Don't believe them. There are those who believe that they get to declare God's rightful candidate or policies, and they have a divine right to make others obey. They are wrong. There is
no higher power and control of the election. No matter how it ends up, we are the ones who impact the outcome. We are both free to decide our futures without the interference of some mystical being, and responsible for how the future ends up. So, no matter what we wake up to on Wednesday, know that the future is up to us, and I for one am not giving up. So do you think what I said is damnable? Heresy? Do you think I should have the right to be
a heretic? Give us a call because the show is starting now.
Welcome, Welcome. It is Sunday in twenty twenty four. I am your host, objectively Dan and joining me today is our very own Sophia for another episode of Talk He Theen. This is a live call in show and it is a product of the Atheist Community of ass Day five oh one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation of
religion and government. And we would love to talk to you today if you'd like to talk to us in our damnable heathen ways, the number for that is five one two nine nine to one nine two four two, or you can call through your computer at tiny nott cc slash call thh and again I'm here with Sophia. Today's Sophia. What's going on? How's how's it hanging?
This is going all right? You?
Yeah, no foreseeable consequences to the future of this country in the nearby, say next couple of days or so, right, No big events or anything. We're a nonprofit organization. Politics don't exist in this space.
We're just you know, we're just speaking very abstractly about when people need to make decisions, the things that maybe impact their decision making a little bit.
Yeah, yeah, here's here's here's a here's our policy statement. People should make informed decisions. That's that's what we say. I think, Yeah, everything's going great, going good. Life is happening at an accelerating rate, and I don't like it. It seems to be the running theme of just being an adult, I guess.
But you know, I also think it's a theme of the last couple of months of the year, Like once you hit October, there's just break connect till January and then yeah, it's.
A busy time of year for everybody, you know. Yeah, but anyway, we have, we already got callers out the gate ready to talk to us. But first before we do that, we should talk about our talk Heathen to Me segment where we got questions that we ask you guys are prompts that we want you guys to answer in the comments below. And last week we asked why is God so jealous? Why is he so jealous? And we're going to figure out why or our top three answers here. Number three is coming from Belter g l J,
who says, why is God jealous? Because Jesus gets to marry all the nuns? That's true. Did you know this? Did you notice That's the thing.
I think I did at one point know this I've actually been to like the I forget the name of the process when nuns officially become nuns, when they've they're done with their probation nunnery. Yeah it is.
It's not as much alcohol, but yeah, yeah, it's a lot of Jesus gets a lot of wives that scenario.
I don't know how people feel about that, but anyway.
I spend time with all of them.
Just an observation, Just an observation. Number two comes from x million, who says God is jealous because even though women cry out his name in the bedroom, he's not who they've chosen to be with, except for the nuns apparently, But yeah, that's that's also a great funny observation, nick million is. Number one comes from Less than Lucid, though,
who says, why is God jealous? Because humans get free will and God has to pay for it, which is just that's a great dad joke that I am surprised I've never heard of before, But I really like that a lot He's got. We got free will and he has to pay for it. That's so funny. I don't know those are good. It's pretty good. We got some good ones this week, so thank you. Guys for giving your answers for this week, be prompt for this next week, there is going to be what would a modern day
plague be? And yeah, okay, don't say COVID. Okay, that's obvious. Come on, I want you guys to be creative with this one, Okay, So uh, answer your answer below in the comments and we will read the top three answers up. But before we move on, Sophia, what would a modern day plague be? What's a good mon day plague?
Christian content farms on TikTok, I think that's a modern day plague.
You're too real for that. You're too real for that, Sophia saying.
I'm staring at the camera with a verse figure you.
Well, for me, it's a taktok videos where they have like two different things playing at once. You know, I'm talking about where they got like a game of subway surfers on one thing and then the actual person speaking. It's like, this can't be good for us. That's not that's not great. But yeah, leave your best answers below and we might read yours next week if it's good
enough to be in our top three. So with that, I want to quickly, very quickly go to the crew camp that helps make this show happen every single week, and thank the folks for working behind the scenes because we always love our crew here and an upside down view of the we are the Stranger Things world at the Atheist Community of Austin. I have no idea if that's on purpose. Yeah, that's definitely on purpose.
That's Vern just fucking around at the studio.
Yeah, that's a good bit. That's a good bit. Thanks for that, Vern. But yeah, you know, the crew is the real the real heroes that help put us on the air for some reason so we can talk for you know, an hour and a half every week. So thank you crew for doing that. That being said, at least, like I said, I mean a Sophia, we got lots of lots of calls ready for us to go.
You ready, I'm ready. I mean I'm as ready as I'm going to be. What am I going to do now?
So yeah, let's do it. Let's see is there anybody you want to talk to? You first? I know you got that call Q open because I see a couple of good ones.
I feel like I want to be I'm going for faith in myself right now.
Okay, surprise me. Uh, I think Jackie, you want to do Jackie? Sure, Okay, let's talk to Jackie Jackie from Mississippi. You are live on talk Heathen today. What's going on?
Hey, how's it going. I'm doing well?
How about you?
Doing well? Doing well? Again? It's a fine Sunday evening with no immediate consequences for the future of this country coming up the next few days, whatsoever. Everything is great, no anxiety on my end or any of the other hosts or anybody. So it's really fine, Jackie. How about you.
I'm going pretty good. I don't took a treat, but I did do have a little bit of candy, not.
That much fantastic. I would hope you don't trick a treat. I think it's interesting when I had. Okay, so, okay, sorry, we're going to tangent here. But you know, Halloween was the other day. There was a couple and I'm not judging here, but there was a couple that came by with a wagon of like kids that two kids that could not have been older than like one years old, and the mom and the dad were dressed up and
they came to the door. They had three bags that they wanted us to give to One was for one kid, one was for the other kid, and one was for the adults. And I was like, I'm pretty sure those kids are too old to be even eating candy, and I think you guys are just running a scheme here. But I did go given to their ploy because it's Halloween. We got to get rid of all this candy. But
that was a very strange experience. So anyway, I just thought i'd share that even classic too young, It's like, I don't think you should be given your one year old kid cats. Maybe that's just me, but I don't think that's a thing. I don't think you should do that.
So I don't know, Yeah, I think you know it would just do the play. Oh sorry, go ahead, Jackie.
Basically, I just wanted to say, so forty argument I would like to present today. I'm going to be presenting Saint Thom's Aquinas's argument for the distance of God from degrees, So argues of you guys familiar with the argument, or do I have to rehash to syllogism.
It's been a minute since I've talked about Thomas Aquinas. But for the sake of the audience, it's probably great to give a summary.
So basically, the premise one is objects have properties the greater and lesser degrees. Would you agree with that?
I love Thomas. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we would. I think it's better instead of asking us if we agree for each premise that you go ahead and give the full argument and maybe we can talk about it from there.
Okay, So promise one, objects have properties, delate less and greater degrees. Promise too. If there is an object with the lesser degree, there has to be an object with the greatest possible degree. Premisterry is because there has to
be an object with the greatest possible degree. There has to be an object with all greatest possible degree of properties and time before God must exist because of this, God being defined as something with the greatest possible degrees or of the greatest possible properties.
What are the greatest possible properties?
So there's things like degrees of goodness, so something very bad, something medium, something really good, and then the greatest possible good is God. So God is the manifestation of the greatest possible of these properties.
Yeah, yeah, I can't believe people are convinced by this back at Aquinas's time, and I'm very confused why people are still convinced by this day. It's a very subjective argument, don't you think, to talk about, like what's the greatest degree of good and the greatestgree of all these different properties?
And like properties can be a lot of different things like it it can include yeah, things like omnipotence, I guess, but it can also include like invisibility or like, I don't know, what's who's to say that non existence is a is the greatest property? What if? What if God just has the greatest property being non existence? Like, I don't know. It's very subjective, it's very weird. I don't find it, say, I don't know. What do you think, Sophia, Yeah.
I think that one you run into the fact that you're attempting to define things like good outside of the realm of God. So when you say, like, God is good, that cannot be possible if you're still trying to say, like I if you're trying to define goodness as outside of God. So we're saying we as humans can understand goodness to a degree, right, and that God, we can apply that to God essentially, and that we can understand God as being good, but doesn't that mean it's really
resting on our conception of God. So even if we were to sort of buy into that, it doesn't specify as objectively Dan said, what these properties are. But if we were to take any particular property, then we're making up our own God by just deciding whatever it is that he would be the most of. And it's sort of as I'm hearing, it feels like God equals just the most stuff. God is the most stuff of all
the stuff, and I find that not particularly compelling. We also have an amazing comment from our backup hoots today, Kelly, but in the chat that doesn't that imply also there would be greater or lesser gods, that if it's just a rung of being ness, that you would have things that are greater than us and lesser than us. And it just feels like it opens into this bizarre and confusing realm of God's are stuff, they are more stuff or less stuff, and we get to define what that stuff is.
You know, yeah, yeah, go ahead, Jack.
Do you just disagree with the premise that do you disagree with the premise that if there are degrees of goodness or it have the greatest possible goodness.
I don't think we even have the ability to define goodness. So to get degrees into the something we don't even have the ability to define is how would we even move on from there? How do we reason from that point?
The only thing we can define into existence or social constructs. And unless we're arguing that God is a social construct, which I don't think is what you're arguing, and I don't think what people who follow this argument are arguing, it's not very convincing. I can't just say I can't say that volcanoes exist through these games of definitions, right, Like most people would say that's pretty absurd, So why would I Why would I say it could do the
same for God? Like, it doesn't make sense to me that somehow, through this sort of logical, you know, belly button stearing, we can just kind of figure out that God exists just by you know, saying, oh, well, he's the greatest of all possible stuff, because there has to be the greatest of all possible stuff. I just don't find that convincing.
I mean, fair enough, but it's just a matter of definitions. God is defined as that with the most greatness making qualities, then if there's something with the most warning to who properties, that would have to be God by definition.
And isn't this entire argument just an argument of definitions? So to disagree with us on the premise that our definitions are somehow worse than the definitions and the basic like in the I guess syllogism of Thomas Aquinas Like Okay, I guess we just don't like the same definitions, but it's still not convincing.
You know, Well, so you would disagree that God is traditionally defined by religious people as you know, the greatest possible being or greatest basis for being.
I would disagree with that. I think we have a lot of different particularly religions with many different gods, because then they actually have wars with each other, so there isn't sort of an assured outcome. I think even if you're looking at the Old Testament, God seems to rely on human instruments a whole lot, and it doesn't seem
like he's capable of doing everything. So no, I don't really get the impression that God is defined as the greatest of all possible beings ever, or consider even Mormons where you can become a god of your own planet. So is there a mega God of all the gods? Or is it just the God of our planet that we're actually beholden to. So yeah, I just don't think that that's true.
This is Thomas Aquinas's understanding of God. But Thomas Aquinas
is a medieval philosopher. They had different ideas about God before the Renaissance, right before we had the inspirations of the Greek, you know, ideas of God and putting him into these kinds of syllogisms, right, there were all kinds of ideas of God before Thomas Aquinas decided, Okay, I'm going to make I'm going to make the real best argument though, So yeah, I don't even think most people in Christian history have followed this, and even those that
do have followed obviously, Aquinas being one of the most, if not the most influential Christian theologian of all time. Still, he ask the average Christian, Hey, what do you think about Thomas Aquinas his case for the years of God. They're going to stare at you, wonder what the heck you're talking about. I just don't think most people think about God in these kinds of ways only academics, and even then a limited sort of those I do appreciate.
Gotta say, I mean, go ahead.
So it's basically what you're saying is, even if there is the greatest possible being, you would disagree that it would have the attributes that classical theism puts on God.
I'm saying that I can't know anything about his attributes if there is the greatest possible being, just by saying to these kinds of logic games, it doesn't really tell me anything about them. These are just kind of human concepts that we're just kind of thrown around with our words.
If in order for me to really know something about a being and its properties in its existence, I have to make observations, and I have to infer through reason but also through other people's observations, right, and their own conclusions what kinds of properties that thing has. It can't come from just the mind, right, That's not how I can really know things, at least things that don't exist
as social constructs, as I mentioned, right. So yes, no, I mean that's that's really all I had to say on that.
I feel like it's kind of like saying, you know, if I can conceive of a unicorn. If I lean into the fact that unicorns exist, doesn't imply there'd be the greatest possible unicorn. It would have every perfect attribute that I could ever give to unicorns. Like that's really dependent upon my opinions. If I believe in ghosts, then there's the greatest possible ghost possibly out there.
Yes, exactly, But those.
Things assume that goes or unicorns exist. But the greatest possible beings, Well, the thing is, we know there are degrees of greatness, clearly.
So how do we know how do we know that the greatest possible being exists?
Well, clearly murder is worse than not murder, and clearly no, it's.
Not just legally defined, it's just.
So it's a legal yes, yes concept, Yes, thank you for saying that. And also, God kills people all the time, right, and also violates human laws on people's deaths. Right, So God has committed murder straight up, right, he has violated the the the states at the time, right concepts of what it means to take someone's life away, lawfully or not. Right, you can say whether it's justified or not. It wasn't lawful, So there you go, right, so it's not clear to me which one is the other based on that.
So so you just disagree that there are degrees of properties.
Basically unless there's something to measure them, I guess. I mean, no, we can say something is smaller than another thing, because that's something that we can measure. But I think that it's you can't how do how does one measure greatness without getting into a definition like slash?
Yeah, you know, Yeah, I don't disagree that there are degrees of things. I do disagree on what the heck greatest means. That's that's always going to be subjective. You know, how many greatest hits, how many greatest song charts and stuff are out there, and people are finding about that stuff all the time. Like that, nobody can agree on even that stuff, let alone what the heck of greatest being is supposed to be. That's that's clearly a very subjective thing. Okay, I have.
Sent I'll also consider your argument, and I'll probably look into counter arguments about two a cliance's arguments and degrees. But you do have an interesting perspective about you kind of go circular into your definition.
Yeah, I think that I appreciate the point you make here of looking into counter arguments. That's how I always choose to understand things. If I'm learning an argument, particularly if I get excited about it, If I get really attached to an idea, it's important for me to start looking into people who critique that idea because I know that I'm getting emotionally invested in this notion and I need something to balance that out. So, yeah, I think that's a good idea.
Yeah, I like that. Call Jackie, anything else you want to have before we let go?
Just one final question, So on that question about looking kind of arguments, do you have any recommendations for philosophers, specifically continental philosophers, that you think would be good for me to read upon.
If we're talking about continental philosophers, I mean, there are lots of responses to Aquinas, but in particular, you're probably going to be more interested in theologians responses rather than just general continental philosophers. I think like most of the time when we talk about continental philosophy, we're talking about philosophy that's examining other things besides like general theology. I guess kirkit Guard is the first thing that comes to mind.
I think that directly references Aquinas and maybe Nietzsche, but Nietzsche's more interested in Christianity as a whole and not really Aquinas as whole shtick. So yeah, Kirker Guard, go, kirk Guard, there you go. That's my recommendation. All right, we'll let you go now. Thanks, Jackie, have a good one. Yeah, that was a great call actually, because short sweet to the point, he had a point of view. We disagreed, and he was like, all right, I'm gonna look into it.
That's it, that's the ideal. That is the greatest talk heathen call. Actually, hold on, wait a minute.
You know, I'm not a philosopher person as much, so it is fun for me to be like, all right, give me the argument. Let's just go with what comes to mind. And so I appreciate that you do know so much and do have recommendations right off, because I'm like the follow your own logic, see what comes. But that's not my recommendation all the time. You know.
Yeah, well, like like general, philosophers just aren't covering theology as much because like the other theologians are covering theology, and yeah, I mean they do count as philosophers in a way. But that's like a very particular kind of philosopher, right, it's just not the same thing. I guess folks who study that kind of sts So I don't it's it's it's interesting and there's a lot of depth to it. But like Aquinas is, like definitely there's a lot of
responses to Aquinas and stuff. There's a lot of Christians today that say, yeah, Aquinas's arguments are like garbage, which I think they're also garbage, you know, to just give perspective there, But I don't count because I'm not a real theologian anyway. No, it was a great call, actually the greatest of calls. I think if we were if we were to logic our way out of this one Sofia and we were to figure out what the greatest of talking thing calls, I think we would point to
that call with Jackie just now. So that's my take.
Yeah, I think did do it. I guess I treat it like, you know, greatest in you know, it hasn't made my heart feel like swell as much, but that's so subjective that if I use that as a as a method for greatness, like Diesel's heart swell percentage, the anti grinchiness of a call. I feel like that's that's a hard fie. So yeah, it makes your heart grow.
That's a good man. That's good meter. We need a meter for that. On screen. I think good graphic, you know, is this call making Sophia's heart grow, you know? And a little graphic that gets bigger and you can like change it. These are ideas.
Crew.
We need to talk. We need to talk after the show. Okay, we need to talk. Let me get this out of the way. I want to talk to you guys about our brick fundraiser. You guys have been hearing about this if you've been watching the last few weeks. We are in phase two of our brick fundraiser and we're giving on some highlights for some of our standout orders we received. This week's featured brick comes from Rosalind from Virginia and it is in honor of Dave Warnock and we want
to thank you for your purchase. And I did mention this on Truth Wanted. I actually went to Nashville recently because I went to Sidney Davis Junior Junior's wedding shout outs and I talked to some folks who are also there in the community because Dave's that kind of in the close to the area. And Dave's doing fine. I know a lot of people ask how's Dave doing. He's just off the internet right now. He just doesn't want
to be on their d But he's doing okay. So you know, any updates that he wants to give, that's his business. But please don't send him messages asking if all right, because he gets those every day and the people that are close to him they know they're they're in the loop. So but he does say thank you. I think to everyone who who has been concerned about him, he's just he's getting I think he's getting annoyed. I think he's he annoyed by all the people messaging him,
which I would to But this fine. It's out of love. And so thanks to folks who've been keeping up with Dave's situation. With that being said, you can get your own brick if you want to support the ACA and help literally build the building, turning down CC slash ACA bricks for that. Also, another way you can support the show is by becoming a channel member. If you click join below the button below below the video. Not below
the button the button is the joint button. But anyway, you'll get custom chat emotes, early access to clips and shorts, and you will help perpetuate the mission of Tom Keithan in the atheist community of Austin. And what what greater mission is that? If we're going to have greater missions, I would say that's the that's the best one. Go to all missions exactly. We will read super chats today, by the way, if you have a question or comment, as long as it's cut appropriate. So get those super
chats in if you like. And of course you know, liking and subscribing it's also that's the whole YouTuber thing. You should probably do that if you want to help us out. If you don't want to help us out, don't do those things, but maybe do them anyway, just because I don't know, I won't tell you what to do. Last thing, last thing, last thing before we move on. We do have merch okay, so tying out cc slash merch aca. If you want to see the new pins, backpacks, onesies,
youth teas, you name it. If you want, you know, to celebrate your little heathens in your life, why not consider it a onesie for Christmas huh so uh. Anyway, that's that's all the announcements I think I got right now, Questions, comments, or concerns, Sophia.
I just love that there's onesies. I feel like the dripping bloody letters does feel like giving birth. So that's good. You know, it's really representative of the experience of creating a little heathen.
At gift for your grandma. Yeah, give me your grandma a talk heathen shirt. Yeah, I love it, you know.
Yeah, And I know that we have some super chats.
Yeah, do you want to read those? Sure?
So first we have Kelly Laughlin, our wonderful backup post today. He's been a member for two years, spent five dollars, and is a cruel, cruel person. Because this is the super chat, I saw Susie sitting in a shoe shine shop. Where she shines, she sits, and where she sits, she shines. Love you both, at least will love you both.
You did really good though, that was you got ninety percent on that, I think.
So I really used to read a lot of like Shakespeare in plays and whatever, and so I like read ahead with my eyes and my mouth usually will get it, but I have to like go into sort of a like blank mind and state.
Yeah, we were literally practicing talking to us just before the show, at least I was. And I'm going to try this one right now too. Ready, I saw Susie sitting in a suit. Fuck, I already messed up. I saw Susie sitting in a shoe shine shop. Where she shines, she sits, and where she sits, she shines. Okay, I got it at the end there, But damn, that's a hard That's a tough one, Kelly. You're evil for that. Anyway, we do have more super check. Do you want to read the other one?
Yes, Eliah Shana silver Bow. I hope I said that right, sent five dollars. So three sixty degrees is a full circle. Seven hundred and twenty degrees is two full circles. The greatest possible degrees is just going in circles. Yeah, finally got into existence. That is a very good point, you know.
What they say? You know? Okay, so there used to be a thing, and this is how you know I'm a dude. They grew up in the two thousands, But there used to be a war between Xbox and PlayStation three. It was a big deal. Okay, and people you say, yeah, when you when you look at the Xbox three sixty, it makes you want to turn three sixty degrees and walk away, which is like it doesn't make sense because you would just like turn back and looked at the thing.
But that was like a thing people said. And I just I just that's just what my brain goes to.
So I'm not going to go on a tangent about love is blind and how there was sort of a thing about that, but just I just want everyone to know I could I just you all know if that's a threat or what.
But you know, I don't know if that's a threat or not either, But I'm intrigued. And well, I'm going to go.
Back to the next super chat NERO and I R R who sent five dollars and said, so by Thomas Aquinas argument, does that mean God has the greatest possible degrees of maliciousness and non existence?
Yeah? I bring up the non existence thing. I guess they would say maliciousness doesn't count because they have the grace theories of good, But then why not have the gray series of malicious It's like it's it's very arbitrary, very arbitrary. I don't get it.
Yeah, it would also sort of imply that there must be a complete counter God, like a fully a being as powerful as God that is fully evil or fully non existent. Right, you have like a spider.
Web, why not have the least degrees? Right, the grace degree exists, why not the least degree?
And just thinking about like, yeah, it's a really cool premise for a fantasy novel, but it is something I really feel like. It's a compelling argument for belief. And then we have Miranda Renzberger who we love member for six months, who sent five dollars and said God can't defeat iron chariots. Humans can build iron chariots. Who's greater now? And I imagine like a mic job here, like woo, Who's greater now?
Yes, that's a deep cut. That's a real thing. Book of Judges, very being Book of Judges. They say that God's the army of people for the Israels were defeated because of iron chariots, which is the implication that God can't deal with them. And there's a lot of reasoning, there's a lot of study as to why it is, but that's for a different time. So anyway, and.
They say atheists don't read the Bible.
Yeah, yeah, to be clear, I mean I haven't really. The only time I read it now is directly in response to people. So I don't know. I don't know.
There is something that I was a great Bible read at a time. I got a lot of candies from memorizing versus like you did back in the day and Sunday School, and I remember, we're getting tired of knowing more versus and understanding more of their context than the people leading the yeasty are part of. So you know, that's a little stuck there after all.
Yeah, I knew people that were really into the whole you got to memorize. If you memorize the whole verse, you get to compete in Bible verse competitions and probably get more candy. And I hated that stuff. I don't know why that was like the least appealing thing to me. It's just like memorizing it word by word, and it.
Kind of creates this this pedantry that I'm a better Christian because I can throw out more christian e sounding things than you know you've watched.
I go ahead, you Christian peasants that don't know not peasants. I know, but I know, but like you're you're creating a peasantry because there is an upper You're part of the upper class of well, I know, Revelations twenty verse thirty nine, my head, can you. I don't know.
I don't know why we become like little riddlers.
I think the Shakespeare thing you mentioned earlier kind of subconsciously infiltrated my brain a little bit.
Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm a nerd and a door come all of those epithets.
So yeah, you'll beset on all sides by those who see you. Now. I can't remember the rest because I'm bad at that ship. Anyway, let's keep going. Let's talk to Edouardo, who is calling to us from Brazil. Shout outs to Brazil. Brazil mentioned on the stream What's happened in EDWARDO.
I'm from Brazil, and uh, what I wanted to talk to you about, by the way, the thing of love love being blind. I got a kick out of it because I actually am blind, so oh.
Love for you. Yeah, yeah, there you go.
I got a hello kick out of it. Anyway, Uh, what I'm what I would talk about, I would probably be hated by his seers and ass but uh, it is a he is a philosophy sort of sort of a hybrid bets philosophy and religion that cause spirit spiritism. I don't know if you've heard about it.
I don't know that I specifically have, at least not in the way that you're discussing it.
So, yes, I'm going to Wikipedia. I see spiritism which links to a spiritismo, which is a term used in Latin America and the Caribbean referred to the popular belief that evolved and less evolved spirits can affect health l other aspects of human life. Is that what you're talking about?
Yes, somewhat because oversimplification. So the thing is uh spirit is alanc which is the French guy who came up with that. He claims to have this third revelation. But what is extraordinary about his his his claim is this he experienced away everything every every, not every, but all sorts of contradictions the Bible, you know, the display holding the miracles, and he actually says there are no miracles, and there are no miracles because everything that happens is natural.
What happened and we didn't know are things that we don't have the scientific knowledge yet. So for example, Lazarus, he came back from the dead, but he didn't actually came back from the dead.
He was.
I think it's called narcole epsi. People seem to be bad and then they stay for sometimes for days like that, and people didn't know all the time, so they wrote about you know, so obviously it says.
That not interrupt but like, at least what you're saying so far, that's not super controversial, at least for antheists. I think there are a lot of atheists that explain away stories like that. More broadly, specifically for the Jesus narrative. I don't even account most of those as even being real events. I just don't think a lot of the
Bible describes like actual reality. But if you want to go that route and try to explain away, like oh, what really happened with like the Red Sea Party, for example, some people do like there are some naturalistic you know, uh, explanations you could point to for sure. So yeah, I don't think you're being that controversial.
Honestly, Well, well, heres you we are sort of a three percent of people who believe that. But the thing is, well, it tends that everything happened. But we we evolved with spirits evolved. And the thing that the language that was explained to us is because we were not soficically evolved. And people nowadays explain things like, for example, nobody one hundred years ago would understand if we explain what a knyphone is, Yeah, that we can talk quite for example from Rosil to the United States.
Yeah.
So they read that and then they they wrote it as as they understood it. So and and uh. The reason for the the the evil being together they good is the question of free will. But interestingly enough, he doesn't think that uh adam and existed what he says that we are we were exiled and people were exiled and uh and we were and the issues also we were somewhat evolved, but it came to displanet that's primitive
and everything was he had to be explained. I mean, if God didn't want to take our free will and uh, and and that's that's how it came up.
The Bible came up.
And uh, some of some of some of the spirit is they don't even study the Bible, which is which is not a very good feeling in my opinion, because if it's the first heavy revelations, that's the first and second. So she has a book called the Gospel according to Spiritism, and uh, that explains that. And and that's that's the kind of click for me, because yeah, you tell me that.
Another thing, what what what makes you? What about this ideology or this belief system appeals to you? What makes it convincing to you?
What appears to me is that it doesn't have a hierarchy. I mean there's no there's no priests, there are no uh, no releagious hierarchies. So because we've been reincarnate, just believe in reincarnation. So it's very possible that our person that is just beginning has more, which is don't there's somebody who lives their whole life used by those dystoption and uh. And they not only not only say that we shouldn't have blind face, they actually count them by face. They
they actually says that have two. We are here to improve our intellects and our morality. And in the cities, for example, the part that they say, oh you know a good man, I was studying that last week. Actually, and it's basically we can't for example, I can't do it you for being a Nazist. I can't do it. I can't chose a Moslim for being Muslim. I mean, everybody has the best.
To go in life.
That's that's why it clicks to me. That's that's that's quite click to me.
Okay, okay, I definitely have some thoughts. I know, Sophia, if you want to talk, because I have some thoughts.
I mean, I think my initial thought is that to me, it sounds like there are aspects that feel cool to you, that makes sense to you from an emotional level maybe, And I know that you're mentioning blind faith is bad, but I feel like I don't see any compelling reason to actually believe this. To me, it seems like another angle of I like this idea it makes life make sense to me, or makes these aspects of life feel
all right, I'm going to choose to believe it. So I still am not getting to any you know, I am trying to listen carefully to see like, is there where is the evidence for this? Is this evidence even come into play here? But it just kind of seems like another one of those beliefs that's just like, nah, I want to believe something. This this seems cool. I don't know why your thoughts there.
I think, oh, sorry, you were asking him, not me.
Probably anybody anybody answer well, I just found out because, like I said, a spiritism, a spiritismo, but that is actually the different thing is this carts spiritism.
I found it because he mentioned the Gospel according to spiritism, and that is what this is referring to. So this is a sort of new religious movement that was as most popular in Brazil, which makes sense because you're calling from Brazil, that kind of I mean, everything seems to match up here with what you're talking about as far as like, Okay, there's it's a different sort of view on traditional Christian theology, but there still definitely is a
belief in God. And I'm also seeing some other interesting things here, like the belief that mediums can talk to the dead and stuff like that. So there is still some kind of interesting spiritual elements. I guess that's why it's called spiritism. And the thing is, like, I agree with some of your criticisms of traditional Christianity, right, like, there's definitely some better explanations for what we see. For example, and you start off by saying, hey, Lazarus say there's
maybe this is explained by a narcoleptic. I agree. I think a naturalist explanation is probably better for some of the stuff we see. But the difference between your beliefs and what my beliefs are is, Look, I apply that to the whole of Christianity. I don't even need to believe that there is a God, right, Why do I
have to even start with that? It seems like we kind of start with this presumption that Okay, well maybe some Christians or Muslims or these other people they have different ideas, they have different interpretations, but let's get to the real stuff. And I kind of say, well, maybe
it's all bullshit from the very beginning. Maybe we don't have have to look at the real Christianity because maybe there is no real Christianity or real God or real God beliefs around it that that are more true than others, because maybe there just isn't a God. Right, So that's where I think I start off with this. It's just like all this stuff is kind of predicated on I got even being there in the first place, and if I can't even get that far, I can't get into this other stuff.
Right, Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, I got it. I got it, And I just wanted to put it out there to see your reaction because it's not only the United States on to see what you guys think. But here's the thing. It doesn't bother me that you don't believe actually, because.
Well that's good it shouldn't you know?
Yeah, yeah, of course that's what I mean. That's exactly what I mean. I put it out there because I have to somewhat where not that there are many people here, but somewhat where a combination of being fluent in English and know his sense about this releasions. I just want to put it out there and and.
No to preach.
Like I said, I'm trying to make you believe that. I'm just to make people think about that you are somebody else because if I if I, if I, well, if I told you that you should believe, be going I guess my religion.
Yeah, we appreciate that you believe that. We appreciate that you know you wanted our takes, you want our reactions. We gave you our reactions right there. You go like I, I you know, I appreciate and respect that you may have more progressive ideas of Christianity that maybe it includes being more accepting of other people and not trying to preach and do stuff like that. I just think that you don't even have to be a Christian or even
be spiritual to even have good values either. Like I just think if it's more about hey, I like that this belief system is anti hierarchical and like allows me to live independently and do these things. I think you can do that as an atheist even better than then a spirituist, because I don't even need a gospel. You can just do what you want. But that's my take, right, so perhaps, but yeah.
But let me just say, well, well I seek just well I see, uh like to provoke you guys.
Your your provocus.
I mean it's is actually the the you know, the human is actually comes from the Christian morality, but without God, so it can maybe you just believe in God now, but some accessors of yours had to because it's not it's only Western society that think about tolerance and things like that. It's it's starry to come out there. But if you if you, for example, in Japan, not in nineteen forty five Peo believe the emperor the live. Emperor was a god, he could do anything.
You know, idea, But think about I think it's hard to provoke people with arguments they've heard again and again. In this instance, the idea that atheist morality is somehow borrowed from specifically Christianity is something that if you're an atheist you hear a lot. I think it's pretty easy if you read literature throughout time, or global literature. That's where I kind of come to this belief is that people have had very similar feelings about morality throughout time
throughout the world. We love similarly, we feel pain similarly, and our morality is an outgrowth of the fact that we're a social species. We like to be together, we love each other, and we feel pain, and so there's no need to borrow a particular moral system. You know, you mentioned tolerance being something that was specific to Europe. Well, why is tolerance inherently the only morality that we need
to be concerned about. I think equality matters too, And I think you saw a lot of calls in Eastern religions or in oftentimes more indigenous religions that focus on things like sharing, like communal welfare. I think those are good things too, and they don't necessarily come from European styles of Christianity. So yeah, I think we're open to being provoked, but I think that particular argument is one that's pretty easily dispensed with.
Yeah, I mean, so, yeah, a couple of things there. One, there is a common misconception that atheism is a Western development and is a Western idea, and that's like a very Eurocentric idea of thinking, because actually it's as old as Indian philosophy, like Indian silas beat by centuries when it comes to thinking about this stuff, and it's obviously like, you know, we haven't had that produced in like the modern philosophical consensus until like much later, because mostly when
we talk about philosophy, it's it's pretty much always been what white guys thought about somewhere in Europe. So you know, there's something to consider there that it's not just a Western idea, right, that it exists by you know, even by that standards, but if you even want to include like just the broad non belief that technically goes back even further than like human civilization, right, because yeah, there's animism and sort of spiritual beliefs that existed amongst humans.
But like, there's definitely been groups of people that have no God belief, for at least God in the traditional sense kind of belief. So it definitely exists for a long time. Whether or not that leads you to a better outcome morally is a separate question, right. But the truth is, like you know, there is there is a conception that morality stems from Christianity or Christianity and religious
constructs in general are the basis of moral foundations. And you know, we've talked about this time and time again, how it's not true. How we can definitely live lives that are moral and you know, obviously produce outcomes that are good most traditionally defined as good. Are they consistent?
No?
But when is religion ever been consistent? Right, Like, that's just the matter of being a human being and how you sort that out. So anyway, that's enough I think from me. But you didn't say that was the last thing you want to say. I will let you go here, Eduardo, unless you had anything else you want to add before I let you go.
No, I'm gonna yeah, I'm just saying, uh, yeah, I'm talking about your specific I mean, I know they if it isn't comes from long ago and all that, but uh, that's the thing. But we learned, we learned that when you don't have tolerance, and actually a lesson that you have to learn by pay, when you don't have tolerists to start to tolerate genocide and things like that. That's why I say that's the most important moral principle.
I mean, I agree, I don't support genocide. I'm also an atheist, so I don't know what you will do with that.
But yeah, yeah, listen, no, no, sorry, sorry, I'm not saying that because you are. It's not the provocation that I was going to say. Is that what led you to the the loss of that too?
You you are part today.
I'm trying to be careful for my wordship was was I mean your specifically from the foundation you know, the seccul line and the church separated from the state, to the church deparate from the state. It's it came because of because people start passion christian the Christianity, because you know, if they are if they for example, we start to sink musicians and what's that.
And I think that you don't have just clarify, are you saying that secularism originates from Christianity. I think that's what you're saying, because I disagree with that.
Yeah, but I'm not I'm not saying but yeah, but I'm not saying that to say that no, you are, you are wrong. I don't see you know why, and might even not be wrong, might be right about that. But I just I just think I don't. I don't. I don't know if you were so few specifically has that problem with people? Don't if you start, don't even acknowledge that money, I mean it.
Just agree that acknowledge the possibility.
So like the idea that if you know, there can I guess I'm happy to say that there can be very moral religious people. And I am a product of the West, and Christianity had a major impact on the West. I think that those are all things that I can
absolutely concede. I think that when we're talking about the idea of like morality, I have found that every step I take away from faith and incorporate non Western Christian traditions, I find myself living more in tune with other people with I find myself living with more integrity the further away I step from it. So I think that it's when it's presented as though we have to have been influenced by Christianity to be moral, and that our morals
come from that. I think that that's what people start taking issue with. Additionally, I think when we're talking about on a societal level, things like tolerance, every step toward tolerance has been a step away from the Church. So I think it's very difficult to say that the secularism and so that humanism and human rights in general have been something that came from the Church, when historically that just isn't true.
So I am.
Definitely happy to see that. Yep, I'm a product of the West. I have a lot of Christian family members that I consider people who are seeking to do right and their religion is grounded in European history. Like that's just that's just actually true. It's also factually true that all goodness doesn't come from Christianity.
Yeah, I understand your frustration. I'm going to say this. I'm going to let you go afterwards, because I didn't say I let you give one more thing, and but you know, you brought up an interesting point. But I think is a common criticism that people have, which is like, look, atheists aren't open minded? Why can't atheists be open minded towards the spiritual, towards the God, towards all these other things. And the truth is I am a product of an
attempt at open mindedness. If I had stayed a Christian, by the way, which is the idea that, oh, you have the truth and the life right, you don't need these other ideas. I mean, that's Christianity's whole thing, is that, look, don't worship these other gods, don't follow these other paths, only follow through me. That's not an act of open mindedness if I had stayed a Christian. It is my attempt to circumvent that ideology that I have come to the place that I am today, right, And that's not
true for all the atheists. Some people grow up broadly setuler and don't have godlieves, and that's fine. But for many of us, that's our reality and that's our choice. Christianity did not promote ideas of open mindedness and tolerance and exploration. And I think that is the burden that Christians need to understand, that that's what they need to follow, not atheists. It's not atheists that need to be more
open minded. It's the religious folks that grew up in the majority religious nations and the majority religious cultures that they grew up and that they need to learn tolerance and figure out what other people believe and not just hey, I need to figure out what the most people, what a third of the planet believes. I know what they believe, I got that right. Do they know what I believe though, or don't believe? I think that's a that's a harder
question for a lot of Christians to actually answer. And I know that you're a different kind of Christian than most Christians, but that's what we broadly talk about, right, we're talking about the majority consensus. But I am when you go EDWARDO. So thank you for that call. Another interesting, interesting call today.
Appreciated it. I now know more about something I didn't like. I learned something which is which is really cool.
I mean cartisicist spiritism. That's cartassist with a K. You don't know anything about this big Wikipedia article though. Nice. Thanks? Yeah, very cool, cool show we're doing today. Thanks for your great, awesome calls. I hope we can keep up this great pace of cool calls and not go into lane calls, right, because that would that would suck.
It is better to be cool than lame.
Yes, it's better to It is greater to be cool than lame. Therefore, the coolest of calls does exist and talk? He then, is is it the coolest of callin shows? So obviously, I don't know. I don't know. There's other cool shows out.
There, but hey, cool but not cool.
Who's the greatest?
Right?
Yeah?
And if it's greatest, it has to exist, right anyway, I don't know.
We're getting cost of all call in shows.
That's right, and I think maybe we're on it right now. I don't know, but he we should do our top five patrons for we should the greatest of Colin shows. I think, Sophie, you want to do top five? Sure?
All right? Well I said sure, and now.
Yeah, let me get this ship out. I can do it if you're not okay, okay.
Okay, God, consider things before I agree to them.
Problem.
I totally get it, because it's like when you're alive and you're like you're you just start talking just to fill the void because we can't have we can't have no noise going whatsoever. That's crazy, are you thing? But yeah, I totally understand.
Yep, all right, I found them. So our top five patrons. Number one, we have oops All Singularity, which is just such a good name too. We have Dingleberry Jackson. Three is this is what I can't think about. I just have to say, you got this, you.
Got this, you got this.
Now I haven't even less.
Come on, you got this. Yeah, you got it?
Hell me, hell baddy?
Okay, yeah, I think I just have to go. Yeah.
The next is left in the leaves. And then number five we have Neil the six o four atheist with an honorable mention today from Bethany p. That's a good name. That's an easy name to say. Bethany is normal human name.
Wait, hold on all of our oops I'll say I'm pretty sure oops All Singularity is taken offense okay, because that's I'm sure that's their government name. All right.
You just.
How awesome would that be? That'd be sick, Actually that would be pretty pretty cool. But anyway, Yeah, thank everybody that donates. You guys are all great, And if you want to be in the top five and maybe an honorable mention, you should do that a tiny out c c slash, Patreon, t H or you know, just be a regular patron too. You got to be top five ce. Yeah, there she's got she's pointed to that lower third. So
thanks for doing that. And and just a reminder as well, we are going to be doing an after show and we're having both of us and then after show today. So if you're watching this live, come check out the Discord after show and uh, that's what we call it the after show because it's after the show.
Just here after the show.
You know, I'm all about it, you know, I'm all about it. So yeah, go check that out if you want to hang out with us. But hey, let's get to some more calls for now. We oh man, we got some good ones. We have two Stevens online right now. Actually, that's a good question. I think I want to talk to Steven from Florida first. Can we do that? All right, let's do Stevens from Florida. Stephen from Florida. You are alive on Talk Heathen today. What's going on?
Hey, guys, I just wanted to talk a little bit about deconstructing Hell. Yeah, first of all, just listening to the show, to just listen into the show today. I wanted to say that the the idea that atheists aren't open minded is not supported throughout history. I mean, we're open to proof. Like my Christian friends asked me a lot what would change my mind? And I tell them proof.
But what would change your mind is nothing, because you've already had your mind made up and your God, you know, is a substitute for this knowledge, which is something that you'll never surpass because it always comes to your God and nothing's above that. So the answer will always be that. But during my deconstruction deconstructing, I wanted to talk about I feel like I was a worst person when I
was a Christian. You know, it's hard, it's hard to admit, but when you're a Christian you read things in the Bible like slavery, and then you say, well, I'm going to rationalize this to that was the times back then, and so it was accepted and therefore these people deserved it because you know what I mean, And so you get this just you know, demonic or of a way of putting it, a way of thinking that's just very evil, hierarchy, way of thinking that you're better than everybody else, simply
because you have this imaginary friends who says so and this book, you know what I mean, tells you that these things. So I wanted to call about deconstructing and just how it changed my life completely. Of I feel like being human, you can hear things that you know contradict what even your beliefs, and instead of just being like, well, my God has an answer for this, or my preacher just hasn't told me what the answer is yet, is
not the best way of going, you know. So I like to challenge my Christian friends and even give them their Jesus story, and I like to ask them what tangible evidence even if we were to say that Jesus died for you and for me and for all of our sins, why are we going to die? Why did our grandparents die? If Jesus died for these people, why are they still experiencing death? Is this a clear sign that even if Jesus did these things, that they weren't
accepted from his God. I mean, in the Bible, it even tells you a sacrifice has to be a female offering, and a flawless female. Jesus was not a female, and he was not flawless.
He was cut up.
In the Bible tells you, you know, now to a cross, and you know, a sacrifice is supposed to be in a temple, not onn amount. So there was a there's a bunch of things that you could even argue about Jesus's sacrifice that doesn't even meet biblical you know standard.
Yeah, what the greatest red pill you experience as an atheist is when you realize that Christianity is the Judaism, what Mormonism is to the general Christian population, which is that Christianity. Right, this idea of Jesus being this fulfillment of prophecy and stuff is not obviously what Jews today broadly speak and think of in the same way that we don't think so smith is a continuation of writing
any of the books of the Bible. Like, that's what Jesus was doing to Jewish people at the time, right, was Hey, here's my interpretation and here's my culls of personality sort of you know, turning into this whole other religion. I mean, that's really what it was. But yeah, there's so much to say there about this. Oh my goodness, you bring up a lot of great points. I was also a worst person when I was a Christian, Right, I was homophobic I was. To be honest, I didn't
really think a whole lot about trans people. They just wasn't as much visibility when I was younger. But I was probably transphobic. If I met a transfers, and I'd probably be a transphobic towards them. And why because I thought I was justified in that. I thought that being gay was a sin and that God had specific gender rules for people, and then we had to apply by that. That wasn't you know? Yeah, are there atheists that are
transphobic and homophobic? Absolutely, but broadly speaking, right, that culture of homophobia and transphobia is fueled by Christianity and Islam, and you know, you know, maybe some minority religions, but Christianity in America absolutely one percent is where a lot of that's coming from. And I don't I'm not a Christian anymore. So therefore I'm not homophobic anymore, because why,
I don't care about God's opinion. I don't think God's real, right, So there's an interesting thing that happens where I do think I'm a better person because I'm not a Christian anymore. And a lot of people say, well, you don't even know what right and wrong is, And that's gas lighting, because yeah, human beings have always always, let me, let me say this again, always been the arbiters for right and wrong. I don't care what you think God's opinion is.
That's a human being telling you what they think God's opinion is. God has not told me himself, and as far as I know, hasn't directly told anybody. It's always been what human beings have thought of God, and therefore have been human opinions of what's right and wrong. And that means that it's malleable. That means that we can work with it and become better people and figure out
what it even means to be a better person. Right. So, yeah, there's a lot of value that comes with deconstruction, and it's one of the main reasons why I do this shit because I want other people to experience that and be like, hey, there is a way to not just lose your faith. I'm not interested in losing faith or losing faith's sake. I want people to believe in true things, but I also want people to become better people, and you can do that definitely by shutting off nonsense that
comes from beliefs that are religious in nature. Obviously, there you go. There's my ted talk, Sophia.
I glad it well, and I very strongly identify with a lot of what you were saying, Stephen, and went through a similar process of I was trying to make so many things work when I was Christian. The mental gymnastics I was doing were insane, and I didn't realize that I was doing them until I was thinking, you know, I'm just going to put this down for a little while. I'm just going to like take a rest from apologetics because I was very much an advocate for my faith.
And as soon as I did that, I realized how I didn't have to work so hard to try to make something feel true, look true, seem true. And that was sort of the beginning of my road to atheism, was I was just like, wait, this is so much this makes so much more sense. And when I think about I had a big argument with my grandfather once, who was a very good man, was a preacher for a long long time, and the premise is who is your neighbor? You know, that's something that we're told to
love our neighbors as ourselves. And then I see religious people of all stripes but particularly Christians, and we're in the context of America right now, particularly in America, who go to great lengths to argue that other people are not really their neighbor, that the Bible doesn't really mean those people that I don't prefer or agree with, or whatever,
and they use the Bible to make that argument. And it's the ability to make an argument based upon your feelings and then believe you have God's divine dictate behind them that makes a person really dangerous and really hurtful and able to do things that just completely disregard the humanity of another. Of course, I wouldn't say no atheist has ever done that, but what I see every are Christians doing that, And so yeah, I fully agree. I think the other thing I would say about when I
was Christian was I was so anxious. I had a very hard time thinking about my own morality, being my best self, being my most moral self. Because I was thinking about this just this week. If I felt like I had a little bit of a sniffle, should I go to school? Like that was a middle school question for me. Is it a demon or the devil trying to get me not to go to school? Because if I went to school, would I have the ability to witness for Christ at school? And then so it means
I should push myself to go right. But what if that's actually the demon talking? And if I stay home, maybe I'll have the ability to witness like a Jehovah's witness or something at the door, because they sometimes come around, So how can I know? And so I would genuinely spend time trying to figure this out as this kid. And I knew I was never good enough. I knew I was wretched and disgusting and awful. And so when you're thinking about yourself that way, how could you possibly be?
You a moral person? You're just an anxious rat. And so, yeah, anyway, I agree with you very wholeheartedly. And it clearly connects with my own experience quite a lot.
Yeah, and Jesus himself expressed racism and biased by the story we're told when the woman goes to beg for her daughter who's crippled, and Jesus says, it's not right for me to throw scraps to the dogs. I must tend to my own people, the Jews, And so he tells the woman that she's a dog, and that she's not a Jewish person. And she answers and says, yes, you know, yes, but even children throw scraps to the dogs sometimes. And then Jesus says, you know, this is
a good answer. When you get home, your daughter will be healed. But you know it wasn't before this girl had to explain to Jesus that he was a racist. And then the Christians want to be like, praise Jesus, he healed that little girl. And you're like, dude, you know what I mean, missed the fine the fine reading there, and you just come to the conclussion of your Jesus is the most powerful being.
And and and she had to cowtow to the personality of Jesus right and beg and say, hey, I know I'm not a Jewish person. I'm a Greek woman, right is the con is the subtext there. She's not literally saying that, but the subtext there, right is that yeah, I'm not a Jewish person, but you know I still
have these needs and desires. And He's like, okay, I'll allow it then, because you cowtowed to me, and you know, and and and and gave into this terrible metaphor, right, which that metaphor absolutely in the Bible, right says, hey, hey, even the dogs need scraps, right, Like, that's what your mercy is from Jesus. Is you are so low you don't even get to sit at the table with him.
You're the dog underneath the table. Yeah, it's it's a truly horrifying passage when you read it with a fuller context, something I never understood as a Christian because why would you why would you celebrate that?
Right?
But yeah, it's true. When you read the Bible of a broader understanding, terrible things come up.
You know, even even there, even they're hymns amazing grace, a wretch like me, I mean, you know, the Bible calls them sheep. I mean, like, it's it's very degrading to you know, and especially if you're a female to call yourself, you know, a person of faith. You know, in the Middle East you're you're killed if you don't.
But in America, you know, you have the choice not to to follow that, you know, And I say to my friends all the time, you know, a female in the in the in the Southern States must have a really hard time figuring out what parts of her body belong to the government, and what parts of her body belong to their husbands, and so you know what I mean,
And so like it's it's really ridiculous to me. But like as I'm as I'm you know, learning these things, I'm trying not to let you know what was pushed upon me my whole life to get in the way of truth and facts. I'm trying to you know, see these this now that I mean, I was the same way as you. I just don't have any trans people
or or LGBT people in my life. But now that I'm opening my eyes to this, where I was homophobic to them, I realized that they need a voice as well, and you know, and I start regretting all the years that you know, I felt justified in in pure hatred, you know, And now that I see that what I was so afraid of this whole time was actually what I thought I believed in this love and compassion, you know what I mean, was actually what I was fighting against and and trying to hide from and saying that
I was more justified than that.
Yeah, I mean, I we were joking about having a consumeter where your like heart grows earlier and I'm like, I feel like this is one of those for me where I fully agree that what I was homophobic too.
It's interesting that this is sort of you know, this seems universal's three of us anyway, that there were people that I thought that because God could love me as a sinner, I could pull that God, you know, they love the sinner hate the sin line, right, And I wasn't just saying I actually just hate this big part of you and this big part of your identity, because that's really what it is. You can't just pick and
choose the things in a person that you love. And I think I've been speaking with a friend of mine who is a religious person and is a lovely person, and every time she brings up faith, she talks about how disgusting and terrible she is and how God God loves her in spite of her flaws, When every time she talks about it really sounds like God hates her and that that's the way that you're taught to believe.
And I think you're right. Oftentimes, particularly as a woman, you can't even you can't even trust your own self.
Yeah, yeah, there is a I mean there are if we saw the figure of Jesus as picked it in the gospel, particularly in the Gospel of John, but in all the gospel today, if we met that person, we would very easily say, this is a cult leader, is a manipulative cult leader, right, who does the tactics that cult leaders do today They make you feel like shit and say, hey, you're not good enough for my love
and make you try to earn that. And we and as we know today as as popular psychology has taught us about toxic relationships and toxic people, right, like, hey, there are signs to avoid, there are red flags in people. And Jesus absolutely displays that, and Christianity as a whole displays that in their typeified relationships with human beings to God. Right, there's a million examples of this. We're already talked about this.
And and part of that subcategory that is the is women's subservience to men as well, which is just an extra layer of bullshit that gets wrapped up in all this. So Steven, I hear you, and you are you are heard here because I mean again, this is why I do what I do personally, because for stories like yours, because I think that this is an act of liberation for both of us, for all three of us. Right, it's not just about winning a debate whether God or not exists. At the end of the day, I'm less
interested in that. I'm more interested in what this can do for people, right, Like, yeah, God's not real, that's true, and that's fair, but like it's more than that. If it was just that, I don't think I would care about this as much. Look how much your life has changed since you've deconstructed these beliefs. Look how much Sophia's life has changed and my life has changed. It's a life changing event, and it's for the better. I would argue.
The Christians would say no, but I say no, it is for the better because obviously you see the growth in yourself. I've seen the change, and that's what I want for other people personally, And that's why I talk about this stuff. Thanks for thanks for that call, Stephen.
You said it, Yeah, you said it perfectly, And I just want to say it is life changing when you go from waking up every day thinking you know everything to you know nothing and and and you know and you want to learn something that day, and so you know,
I'm going to keep deconstructing. I just wanted to say that, you know, in my own personal experience, I have found that, you know, I was a much worse person when I was a Christian when when I thought that when I was justified, than I am today wanting to be the things that I thought I was standing up for when I was a Christian.
Absolutely. Amen, Amen, Stephen, Amen, very much. Uh good, thank you, thank you for your testimony. Thank you for your witness testimony today. We appreciate that. Yeah, the congregation here we love that. You guys love that. Yeah, I think, oh, sorry, Stephen, I think I think he went ahead and uh I dropped off there. But thank you, Steven, thank you so much for that call. That was wonderful, honestly really good. Yeah, actually beautiful. Yeah, that's really the greatest show.
Yeah, the grincha meters now involved and like we got there. It was my goodness. You know, something that I'm was thinking about when you mentioned to the just being a woman in a southern state. You know, I am in Texas and some people were really confused as to I moved here. And I've now gone through two pregnancies in Texas and both have been kind of terrifying. When you think about who owns me, and that that's a question that some people would find legitimate and think that they
could answer. That's that's pretty bizarre that people can think they can own me and own you know, my decisions. This week, a lot of folks are talking about how if you I believe the quote that came out was to the effect that if you vote differently than your husband, it's like cheating on him. And of course, though I have to wonder what they would do in my situation
where my husband is not an American citizen. So I guess that I is that inherently anyway, never mind, I don't really have a conclusion to that, but I was just sort of curious about what the recommendation for that would be.
So yeah, I don't know, Uh, these most people don't have these things too thought out in my experience, So we're just we're just I don't know. That's why we're here, I guess so we can think it out. But anyway, we have we have at least at least two more calls I want to try to get to before the end here, and I want to let's just jump to them right away, because when we have the other Steven who's been waiting for a while, so I want to get to them. First, we got Steven from New York
who wants to talk to us. So, Steven, you are live on talking Heathen. What's going on?
First of all, my mouth is a little driver, so please bear with me. But yeah, Satanism is very antagonistic, and I think Christians need more respect.
Christians need more respect from Satanists.
Yeah, say to this could be very hostile and also have an analogy about why Satanism doesn't work.
Okay, Well, well let's one thing at a time. Why do Satanists need to give more respect to Christians?
I just think it's uh, rather of a churist. They like wave pentagrams at Christians and kind of harassment. I think it's uh, it's I'm not even Christian, but I think they deserve more respect.
Well, can you give me example, because when are when are they waiving pentagrams in Christian spaces? If there is one, I want to know, But I'm just not aware of that happening.
I mean, I've seen Satanist.
Be really.
Rude to Christians, and I have an example of why it would be for I remember you were talking about Resona bel for another day. I like that also, you know that has you know, like scary uh Spaniard villagers and the local illuminatos called. Just because I like that doesn't mean I would go up to someone who is afraid of ghosts, let's say, And I wouldn't go up to them in a magenta or violet cloak and try to scare them and be disrespectful to them.
I agree, I just I don't know if this is a thing that's happening in reality, right, Like, Okay, so the Satanist organizations that I'm aware of broadly what they do, and I'm not a Satanist by the way, so you probably should be complaining to the Satanists and not maybe me and Sofia, but broadly, right, Like, you know, they are filing lawsuits and they are you know, putting in
claims for just stuff that broadly involves religious freedom. Like I'm trying to think of specific stuff like when they say that they are it's going to be after school clubs or whatever, and they want to add religious after school clubs, then they'll be like, okay, we're going to make a Satanist after school club. Or if there's going to be you know, two like plaques that honor have like a cross on you know, a government property or
a school campus. They're gonna be like, Okay, we're going to make a Satanist plaque, right, And it's just more to make a point, right, It's like to kind of show like, hey, we exist too, and there's other religious groups that exist beyond Christianity, and oftentimes these policies that are supposed to be allegedly for religious freedom are really to further a Christian hegemony, right, to further a Christian agenda. So and politically, that's the kind of actions I see
from Satanists. Can they be like pretentious? I mean that's a matter of opinion, But I don't know of any Satanists that are like going up to Christians faces with pentagrams or whatever. That's not what I'm aware of. Maybe you know of some examples, and I'd love to hear that, But like that's my understanding of like politically what Satanists have been doing in America for a bit.
I think I would also sort of throw in there that it's hard to make these generalizations about a group that is in the dramatic minority. So when we think about satan activists, and I'm not a Satanist either, So there might be a Satanist out there like yelling at their screen because whatever I'm going to say is going to be wrong, but I'll do my best. When I think about kind of their activism, it's if they were
polite about it. Sometimes, if people are just like, well, if you know, if it's okay with everybody, we would like you to not put the Ten Commandments in the courthouse. Things like that. Sometimes I think these dramatic actions are done in order to even have a fighting chance to even be heard or seen, because I think oftentimes people who have tried polite tactics, who have tried to say, hey, just let me live how I want to live, that
hasn't really been met with any response. It's very easy to steamroll someone if they are searching for that consensus, like interpersonally, I agree with you, like I think that if if somebody disagrees with you, and you're just like, I'm gonna be a jerk about it, don't you know, don't do that. You know, on this show, I respond to things differently than maybe I do in real life. If someone has a faith and they don't want to necessarily discuss it with me. That's not something that I'm
going to just venture into. And if it feels like they're just wanting to say what they believe and don't, aren't there for an argument like that's that's fine. But when it comes to these questions of rights for other citizens, I kind of get the antagonistic approach, even if it's not what I personally would take.
Yeah, are they trolling sometimes a little bit? Yeah, I'll give you that, sure, But it's like, I don't know, is it rude though? Like how rude is it? Is it any more rude than putting like you gave the example right tank commandments? Is it rude to put a Baphomet statue up? Is it any more rude than having a ten Commandment statue up? I don't know. That's a matter of opinion.
I guess I think it takes away serenity because they're pretending to be Satanist. They're not really they don't really believe in Satan, so it's not a real religion like other religions, other religions, other religions. Even though they may need to understand that church and state separation is needed. They're not doing something on purpose to be rude to others, but Satanists are. I think it's basically just a word game. That's basically what it is.
Religion. First of all, let's put a pin in that, okay, because I don't know if you can tell the Satanists what their religion is or isn't. I think that's up to them in the same way that by the way, and I pulled this both ways. If a Christian, if somebody tells me I don't believe in God and I'm a Christian, I still accept that they're a Christian, right, because that's their self identity. So I don't care. I don't give a shit if that's what they identify, that's
what they identify as. But we can point to common denominators there. So yeah, broadly speaking, most Satanists, at least that I know of, don't literally believe in Satan as a figure. That doesn't matter. That doesn't mean that their religion is not a religion, right, because religion is more than just a god belief or add belief. It's also ideology, right, and so they fulfill that ideology to a t. When they're putting Baphomet's statues up. Okay, I don't care if
you don't think so. They definitely do. That's definitely part of the religion and that's what they follow through. So this idea that they don't count because they don't actually believe in a real figure, that's not the point, right, It's there's a little bit more to it than that.
I think I would also throw in there that it's a very strange expectation to think that if something doesn't seem like a religion, they should pay homage or respect to something that is a religion. In our viewpoint, that's a really bizarre expectation. I mean, they could entirely come out and be like, all of this is fake. We're
just doing it for the human rights standpoint. I still don't think that's a reason for them to behave a particular way or to privilege Christianity, because they aren't just trolling. I don't see why that would be the case.
Yeah, generally speaking, it isn't just for wing right. There's a little bit of trolling, okay, but there is a bigger point, right, There is a sort of larger, sort of ideological framework that they're working under. Endpoint that's being made with a lot of these sort of political sort of statements and stunts that a lot of Satanist group's done. So it's not just for nothing, it's not just to piss people off, but it is a little bit.
I think.
I think they'd be lying if people were like, yeah, it's kind of fun to piss people off, so but yeah, it doesn't work with civility politics, Steven, if that's your point, so.
I would say, where there's a will, there's a way. If if there's like a problem with church and stay separation occurring, then then you you know, they could they could talk about it instead of acting in this strange way and kind of you know, yeah.
You know why we I mean people, The reason why evolution is taught in schools is because a teacher made a stink about it. Right, Sometimes you have to make a stink about it in order for things to make a change.
Right.
Madeline Murray O'Hare, for example, founder of American Atheists, made a huge stink about a lot of stuff. And she of course was notorious for the stink that she made. But if she hadn't made the stink that she made, American Atheist wouldn't be a thing and wouldn't be doing stuff right, So you kind of have to make a stink sometimes. Yeah, some people off, Yeah, but it has to be done in order for a change to happen sometimes.
So I don't know, I disagree with that notion that well, we all have to play nights all the time.
You know.
I think that I've heard a lot of nice people tell me that I shouldn't have access to things like quite a few different kinds of birth control, quite a few different like there's I think, as a as a person of the of the lady persuasion being, getting this idea that if you aren't offensive, then people will listen to you. I can tell you that that has never been the case in my entire life. No matter how a gentleman may be, they just don't necessarily understand your
experience until you present it to them. And sometimes they're not ready to listen. So making a stink, making a fuss, making it so other people have to see and hear you, sometimes that does become necessary. It's people you're saying, where there's a will, there's a way, Maybe this is the way. And I think the other thing I would say is great. If you don't believe in that kind of activism, don't do it. But yeah, then do it a different way yourself.
Like I said, I personally don't attack the people of faith for you know, unless they want to have some kind of discussion, or even then I don't think I'm attacking. But I really can't tell people who feel like their rights are at stake not to make a big fuss about it.
You know. See, we gotta let you go because I want to take at least I want to have the call before we go. But anything else you want to add before we let you go.
I still think you get more views with honey than with vinegar.
I kind of disagree with Well, hey guess hey, here's my response to that, Steven. How did you find the atheist community of Austin. Was it from Matt dillahunty being nice and sweet to some of these callers, or was it from Matt like ripping into somebody, yeah, being aggressive? But yeah, then that makes a difference, right, kind of makes a difference just a little bit, Steven. I'll let
you go now. But and again I use Matt because you know, most people probably fire stuff through man Man's probably the most popular host, I mean, is the most popular host that has ever been part of Atheist Comuni of Austin. Right, But it's like, yeah, that's if you look at our top ten clips. I'm sorry, it's not us saying, oh, good good job, caller, you're doing great. It's people being just a little snarky.
I think I also would find out that it's pretty funny to be like, yeah, like I have tried to advocate for myself politely and people just fully ignore me. And he's like, no, okay, Yeah, I don't know what I'm supposed to say to that, other than like, I guess you're not going to advocate for anybody Like. It just doesn't feel like there's you know, if you want everyone to be polite, I guess that's just not going to be the I can't rely on you for advocacy
full stop, because that's not always how it goes. Yeah.
Yeah, and you know, aggression for aggression for aggression's sake in greade either. I'm not saying that, but I don't think the Satanists are doing that. Maybe some of them are. I don't know all their hearts, but I from the ones I've talked to and from the interviews I've seen from people, it's people who are generally fighting for something larger than themselves, right, fighting for our principle that they believe in, and the way to do that is to
ruffle some feathers. Sometimes. That's why people find activists annoying, because we tend to ruffle people's feathers in shud.
Well, and we can also be very easily characterized as being mean to people of faith. Are very existence as atheists in public can be characterized similarly to how atheists or Satanists were being characterized in that case. So I guess kind of shrug, like, people can say that about me too. Yeah, I think they'd be wrong, but they could.
Yeah, I uh yeah, I agree. I still want to take this one other call that we have in the queue here. I know we're like at the end of the show, but like, I think it's really interesting one, so I want to just jump right to it. So let's say this. We got D calling in from Iowa. D you live on Talk Heathen. Give us your take here. You're telling us that atheists need to be are tolerant of those within our own ranks that still hold on to spiritual beliefs. I'd love for you to expound on that. Hi.
Hi guys, thanks for taking my call. Can I just say first a couple of things about Stephen just now?
I mean I normally i'd say, yes, we are at the tail end of your show. If you can keep your comments to thirty seconds or under, then yes I can. I can.
Respect is earned, that's all same.
Okay, all right, that was under thirty seconds.
Good job, he said, He said, he said the Sataness should be more respectful. Well, I say, respect is earned.
All right, all right, all right, we're doing some Shakespeare stuff today. Amazing equips. Sorry, do you go ahead?
No?
Anyway, what I wanted to say is that deconversion is a process. Some people take a while, and their and their beliefs and their views and their mindsets change over time. And that's where I'm coming from. I started out as a charismatic fundamentalist. I went to UH, I left the church, so I quote unquote practice Christianity on my own, kind of like a solitary Wickan.
Sort of thing.
And then I pivoted from Christianity to a generous spirituality, and so on and so forth until I find myself now being a secular Buddhist, and that took me literal decades to get to and a lot of us are still on that gradual path. We are evolving and and I'm not going to go into it, but I still hold a couple of very personal, spiritual type beliefs.
I think that we we.
I I'm I'm with you guys that that I want. I want to be a force for bringing the truth into the world and freeing people and helping them heal from religious trauma.
Uh.
I think that we all have a part to play, and I would really like to see some people, well, I guess we're talking about respect, have a little more respect for the journey that each individual is taking. Like I had one host tell me, yeah, sure, spirituality is fine. Uh you know, like if you're a heroin addict going through with and giving you some heroin occasionally through the process,
it's okay. And I kind of I had to think about that for a couple of weeks because I thought, you know, you know, maybe for some people that might be true, but it wasn't true personally for me.
So I was just kind of wondering what you guys think about all that this is.
A tough one and very much related to what we were just talking about. So I think if you've seen my track record as a host, if anything, I have tried my best to reign in other hosts when I can, when I say, hey, hold on, we need to take a step back here, because we can glibble about little stuff all day. But you're absolutely right deconstruction And I like the term deconstruction better than deconversion because it is when you're deconstructing, it's there's bits that come in that process.
It doesn't happen all at once, right, And that's true for me, that's true for a lot of us that go through that process. It's easy to forget for many of us. The truth is it happens a day at a time, usually doesn't happen all at once. And in that there could be people who find your other parts of your beliefs still disagreeable and just want to just tear it all out right and just want to just rip just like a band aid, just rip it all off. And there are some people that say that needs to happen.
I'm not one of those people that necessarily says that. I think the problem is religious belief is also a philosophical one, it's also a social belief, right, it's also a psychological one, And you can't just do that with people. Unfortunately, it doesn't work. Even if in the most ideal circumstances, people can't just change the entire way they've been living their life in a single conversation because they had a debate with somebody online. It just doesn't work like that.
So when it comes to respecting the process, I agree in respecting the process, I don't respect the beliefs. I'm still going to say, hey, your belief is homophobic if you're being homophobic, right, and saying you're participating in a
culture of homophobia. If somebody, for example, was to do something like that, right, even if they're deconstructing, even if they're if they're going through that process, again, I respect that, but I also have to be firm and say, hey, this still isn't right, right, And you know, that's just
one example. But but the point is, like you have to still be consistent even when talking with the folks who are deconstructing stuff, because you can still deconstruct and not and kind of stop like there may be some stuff you still leave untouched. Right, just because you're deconstructing some stuff doesn't mean you're deconstructing everything. It tends to happen most folks that do go deconstruction tend to also
look at their political beliefs and stuff. But there are definitely some and I know this because I know atheists, for example, who do have some bias with people who are gay, for example, like that's that's a that's a thing I have encountered. So it doesn't necessarily mean that you know, you're absolutely enlightened just because you have some stuff you agree with. So anyway, I guess I'm trying
to say, I hear you. I absolutely hear you. And I definitely definitely have always tried, at least in my position as a host, try to respect people's journey as much as I can, as much as is tolerable to me. And I also got to lay down the line sometimes too, because I can't just let people say, oh, well, they're going on the thing and we we don't have to call some stuff out. I got to call stuff out
when they call it out. It's more just like I don't know, it's the social navigating that we all experience every day when we talk to other people, right, what's one's the best way to approach something And we all have to kind of figure it out on a day by day or a call by call basis in my case, but for most people it's just the day by day conversations. Anyway, that's my take there. I've been talking a lot, Sophia.
We think, Yeah, so I think I fundamentally agree with you in the sense that you know being I do value kindness. I think being kind to people as often as you can viewing things from their perspective, so you can, you know, treat them how you'd want to be treated like. I think that's important. I also think it's important for us to consider what we're really responding to when we're
talking to someone. And if you're an atheist and you're getting really irate or having really, as i'd say to my kid, big feelings about something, it might not be feelings about the person in front of you actually arguing for a religion. It might be feelings that you're dealing with about coming from religion, and I think that that's important to recognize. I think there is a part of me that does want to put out there that well, I definitely attempt to be respectful when I'm with folks.
Sometimes I get really emotionally tired of having to be this ideal atheist because I know I'm predominantly surrounded by Christians, and I know that anything I say is going to be seen as how atheists act, and so it can become a lot. It can become you just sort of holding things in so you can nurture people who are part of the vast majority, many of whom are seeking to take away rights from you that I know you're not suggesting that. I'm just wanting to acknowledge that that's
really hard to do. And there are times when I want to lash out and be like, this is all bullshit. You don't get to tell me what to do because of your bullshit. You know that's and that's there too, Like I agree with you, And I think maybe my take would be atheists need to find a place to release as well, so that so that they can treat others respectfully. Because if I didn't have ways to have some catharsis with that, I think I would struggle more than I do. And it's it's still a struggle.
Yeah, if I, if I if It's what I've been saying for years at this point, and I always say this is you can be right, you can be convincing, but those are two different things at the end of the day, right, So do that as you will. But I think that's that's everything I want to say about that. Any other thoughts you want to share with us on that tea?
Yeah, and you know you're talking about people who, uh, maybe atheus, but they're still like homophobic or misogynists or like, that's not what I'm talking about. I mean, if somebody, you know, you know, if somebody it comes across homophobic or misogyns, definitely you got.
To call them out on it.
I don't have to call him out on it in reference to their belief Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, but yeah, I hear what you're saying. But like Ardo, for example, we got to him earlier, who was had some probably some more progressive understandings of his religion and other people's religion. He was very kind to us. He thought, oh, I don't have to He explicitly said, oh, it's okay that we don't believe in God. Thank goodness, we got
a Eduardo's permission for that. But it's like, hey, I'm still gonna tell Eduardo, Hey, I still think the whole god thing is dumb, right, Like I still say dumb. I didn't say dumb. Were just I don't think it's worth investing belief in, right, Like, yeah, he's agreed with me on a lot of stuff, but like, hey, I'll
help him get the rest of the way there. I don't think just because yeah, he does win some points with me, because Okay, he agrees with me on some stuff, that doesn't just mean I get to just say, oh well, Eduardo, I guess you know, maybe we can all agree to different things, and you know, you can have your belief system which tells you that mediums can contact the dead and we can have seances and stuff, right, which is apparently a thing that's a part of the system according
to Wikipedia. So I don't know. I don't know if that gives us a license to just kind of be like, Okay, everybody can just do what they want now because we got some level of tolerance, right. But that's the debate of our time. I think a lot of smarter people have talked about that on set more than me. I don't know, do you what do you.
Yeah, No, I really appreciate you guys' views, and I do have some other things to say that I think i'll say that for the discord.
Okay, that sounds good, great segue, great segwe d thank you, thank you for giving us that. I will let you go now because we are at the tail end of today's show. But as de mentioned, we are doing an after show right now, well not right now, like in a few minutes now. So tiny out Clash and d Discord. If you are watching this live, come hang out because we're both going to be there and Kelly's going to be there. Two shout outs to Kelly Laughlin, who's been
our backup post today. If we could maybe get him on the screen. There he is. Look, he's got that, he's got that scarlet letter on today. He's feeling fancy.
Dan, you mentioned that like atheistic belief goes back pretty and I have to do this with somebody in chats that I knew everything. So about three hundred BCEA in Greece, the philosopher Pearis was started some atheist philosophy, and if you want to go a couple hundred years beyond past that to about six hundred five hundred BCE and I'm hoping I pronounced this right. Brigus Patti was an Indian philosopher who started the school of Sharvaka, which is very much like modern atheism.
Yeah, yeah, not even the only a atheist philosopher in India. Actually a couple of people that talked about it is. Yeah, there you go. Kelly does know everything. Thank you Kelly in the wellspring of knowledge, sir. We will see you
in the discord in just a second. And before we get going here too, I have to remind you, guys, what would a modern day plague b and give it to us in the comments section, please, so that we can read the best answers, the greatest answers next week on next week's program.
And real quick before we go, we have a super chat yet that Yes, we have Robin hood stuff who sent us five Canadian dollars, which I just find fun to like specify. Hi, I am an atheist and I just watched Chris Spiracy. Christ Spiracy. Yeah, it's probably okay, and I recommend everyone to watch it. It will it exposed, I'm going to say, exposes religion for the animal sacrificing cult. That it is woof. That is an incendiary language.
Sounds like some hot tapes on that little program. Yeah cool. I haven't heard of that, but maybe it's maybe it's cool. I don't know. I can't say it's cool or not because I haven't seen it. But thanks for the shout out. Maybe I'll check that out. Let's do some love rings. Actually, we got to do some love rings at the end of the show. You're ready for this. Put your charge, your magnets, and your geodes together. Get ready for this, Camme Hamie.
There we go.
Care I got it.
I've been trying to do the gen Z heart, but I'm not very good at it. Yeah, I'm too millennial. I don't quite get it.
Your skinny jeans are preventing you from.
Being are affecting my brain?
Yeah exactly. That's awesome. Well, yeah, that's Those loverings are out there for the folks who are joining us in this community. And let's go ahead and give that sign off.
Now.
If you don't mind, Sophia, if you don't believe this is your community and we appreciate you being here, and if you do believe we don't hate you, We're just not convinced SIONI. Everybody will see you later. We want the truth, so watch Truth Wanted live Friday at seven pm Central. Visit tiny dot cc slash y t tw and call into the show at five one two nine nine one nine two four two, or connect to the show online at tiny dot cc slash call tw