Imagine yourself a parent, well maybe you are one, and suddenly your child starts to complain of an impending feeling of doom. Then come apparitions, specters that they seem to be able to see that no one else can, scaring them very much, sir. And then come the shakes, the fugue states, staring into the distance at something that only
they can perceive. You don't know what to do, so you consult with the wisest person that you know, your local priest, and he, with heavy heart, tells you that your child has been possessed by a demon and it must be exercised at all costs. Well, he says, it's a demon, but we know now through medical science that it's almost certainly something more like an epileptic fit. And isn't it strange that so many symptoms of demon possession can be explained through natural reasons? So do you believe
the demons really exist? That we are under threat, being controlled and influenced by the minions of the Antichrist? If so, please call us. We'd like to hear from you, because the show's starting now.
As amazing Jamie, I love the I don't know and you talk about demon possession and I'm on board, but welcome everyone. Today is October twentieth, twenty twenty four. I am your host, Sophia Spina, and joining me today is Blindlimy.
Hello.
Yeah, so how did you land on demons for today's discussion?
Well, it was our producer and backup host, Richard, who said that he'd been looking into demons, and I just thought to myself, what angle can I come at it from? And I realized that, you know, everything they always say is a demon possession is either a completely explainable neurological or physiological condition or just being being disobedient, you know, been noughty. Therefore it must be the demons. And the problem with it is is that exorcism as a practice
is quite traumatic. You know, of course it's completely useless as far as we're aware, but much like other types of spiritual healing or faith healing, it is misdiagnosing a problem and providing a remedy that does more harm than good and then stops a person from getting the help they actually need. So yeah, serious stuff.
Yeah. So I know this is like not necessarily something we coordinated on, but I just watched The Exorcist for the first time also, and was able to sort of listen to a lecture about its cultural significance right after. It was fascinating, and the idea that people didn't actually ask for things like exorcisms. Prior to The Exorcist coming out, that wasn't a common thing. Most Americans did not believe in exorcisms. But to this day, the majority of Americans
do believe in exorcism. So it's really a movie that created this, this cultural movement and this belief. Something else I thought was really interesting was that when you have a Catholic exorcism, they behave differently than when there's a Protestant exorcism or a Hindu exorcism, or each faith operates differently when they are I guess being exercised. And yet it's supposed to be a consistent kind of demon or demonic force. And I thought that was fascinating.
Yeah, again, it just shows that it's its perception and quackery. And I the fact that people are now saying that certain things are demonic or invite the demonic things into the house, and that causes trauma to people. I've seen like the New what they called it devil panic, what do they.
Call it in the Satanic panic?
Satanic panic? Yes, So you've got people now taking and it's usually actually partially political as well, taking things like oh, I I won't have this Taylor Swift stuff in my house anymore. It invites in the demons and they take it all out and burn it or their Pokemon cards or whatever, and it's like, come on, I thought we were past this. Like they're just pieces of card with cute pretend animals on them. They're not demonic.
Yeah, something that got me. I have so many thoughts at once. I'm having three stooges syndrome. They can't get to the door. But when I was younger, I was around a lot of folks who were kind of the nice, the friendly style of faith, and instead of actually saying, oh, the demons are going to get you, they would talk about, well, I just don't know that. You know, Pokemon cards are honoring to God, and we need to do things that honor God, so you know, it's just best not to
have those in the house. Or when I asked about the idea of a Ouiji board, and you know, because those are obviously incredibly demonized, I guess is a word that works here. And my mother, who I love very much as a very smart woman in many ways, and she was Church of Christ. They're not quite as they don't do exorcisms really that I've heard of much, but she would always just say, well, you know, it's better not to not to invite anything in, not to leave
the door open. So I feel like a lot of the time we dance around to this idea of demons. We're like, well, Jesus cast them out in the Bible, so they exist. And they put this happier face on our softer face on some aspects of Christianity because they're like, well, we don't do those crazy, big exorcisms, and yet you're still instilling a fear of demons. When I was a kid, I would wonder, if I feel a little bit sick, is that a demon telling me I need to Like
it's tempting me to stay home. But if I go to school anyway, maybe there's an opportunity to witness for Jesus and the demon knows that. So I'm having this, like, you know, in my ten year old mind, this religious debate, thinking is a demon telling me to stay home? Or am I you know? Is that just me being selfish, because also I could just be evil and bad too. It was. It's sort of a cluster turkey of the mind of a child to live like that.
Yeah, I can imagine. I can only imagine how traumatic it could be to really have these things instilled in you as real. It's one of the reasons why I like media like Ghostbusters and like the Doom video games, where it's like, yeah, demons are real, but we can science them to death, Like I don't need an exorcist, I need a chain gun and gent in my ears. Then we can take on the demons. Anyway.
Yeah, it is really interesting to I don't know, look back, and I think I'm still unwinding what this meant for me. And I know that you have the privilege of not growing up fundamentally religious, and so yeah, I hope my
children won't have the same reactions that I did. Yeah, so real quick talk he Then is a product of the Atheist Community of Austin of five oh one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, and secular humanism, and the separation of religion and governments.
Talk Ethan is a live call in show and we have open lines, so get your calls in at five one two nine nine one nine two four to two or from your computer at tiny dot cc slash call t H. That's tiny dot cc slash c A L L t H for Talkthen. Yeah, so we have a question of the week as usual and uh called talk Ethan to Me. Sorry, I'm always like a little halting in my speech as I'm like reading and like look at the camera. So just so everybody knows a little
behind the behind the scenes moment. So it is time for our talk Ethan to Me a segment where we get into the question of the week. Last week we asked you what's really going on at Wednesday night service? And here are our top three answers number three and I'm gonna get to cut to you for reaction Jamie on on these after each one. Ok, number three the psycho for twenty is I think how you say this YouTube name? What really happens at Wednesday night services? They
perform rituals to summon demons. They confused with God.
Ah, yeah, you think you're at your prayers are being answered by the Almighty butle but it is perhaps the Satan that is doing the fulfilling.
Really, I think that absolutely is possible. I think some of these, particularly like Tick. If I'm gonna say I believe in demons, right, I suppose there's a reality where that's the case. The more I watch TikTok evangelists, the more I'm certain they're listening to them.
It's also amazing how young they all are. They're all there, they're TikTok youngsters looking for clout that they're doing with a cross in their hand, and I'm like, this is so weird.
Yeah, it's crazy the number that are shirtless too. Just as an aside, like the the hot TikTok evangelists is such a weird phenomenon right.
Now, Rice.
All right? Number two response to what are they really doing at Wednesday night services is from syrill or Siri la, what are they really doing at Wednesday services? Studying up on their speaking in tongues? You gotta be prepared at any time to fake it, I mean channel the Holy Spirit.
Yeah, gloss alalia not a not a real language. It's just noises and nonsense. Like again, it's just another thing that uses a physiological phenomena to induce a mind state that they can use. If you're speaking tongues, you're usually becoming breathless, you might get light headed, you'll start feeling you fharic. That's God entering you, not the fact that you're not breathing properly.
I love that. I feel like that's one of those things that weird. A side story, I let a Bible study in high school. I was that religious that I was trying to convert people. And I'm sorry everyone, but there was a second Bible study and we had Initially we're both evangelicals, we were going to work together and just do one, but we didn't agree on the importance of speaking in tongues. They were way more hardcore about it.
So we ended up having two separate Bible studies, even though we were pretty much from the same wing of Christianity, just because that was such an important part of the faith. So that was that was curious. Looking back. Our third and final response of number one, we have here from X million Wednesday night. That's ladies' night, Ama.
Right, yeah, it's just a it's just anoy lady's night. Therefore nothing gets taught, no one speaks, because our lady shall not teach the thing in the place says Bible. Yes, I'd like I'd like a Wednesday Night, Wednesdayight special Communion where they switch out the wifers for tabs of LSD. Really touch the Lord.
I know. I wonder how many demons you'd see. I feel like, yeah, no, we've frimed people to see demons in that specific circumstance. Oh yeah, don't. Don't. Maybe watch this show and then do LSD. If you're religious. I guess that would be my you know, the one person out there that might be a problem for all Right, So the prompt for next week is complete the sentence. It was a mistake when God blank enter your answer below the video and the comments, and next week we
will reveal the top three answers. But let me go to our co host. All right, Jamie, So complete the sentence. It was a mistake when God.
Made it so that we couldn't check his work because we can't see before the first plank time. It's like, whoops, all the proofs there, but you can't get to it.
My bad? Yea it Jamie? Right, that's you know, so that we would have to have faith to be saved. It was actually God playing forty chests.
All right, George Michael Faith Faith Faith Faith Faith.
YEP. I mean admittedly, like I do sort of love that song.
So I do.
I ironically prefer the Limp Biscuit cover because I'm agreebo from the nineties, don't you any want?
Though I've actually never heard the Limp Biscuit cover because I was a child in the nineties, So maybe that's something I get to look forward to now now I realize I just sort of did an age age check a moment there. Sorry, Sorry about that. I guess I don't know should I be sorry about that. I'm sorry if I made you feel old. I guess that's what I'm trying to say.
You can't make me any feel any older than my knees, back and ankles do every morning, anyway.
Fair enough? All right, Well, I love that answer. I am anxious to see what our audience comes up with in the comment section. Give us your best answer, and tune in next week when we read our top three again. That question is complete the sentence, It was a mistake when God blank. So something that I also want to mention is how fantastic all of the people who are working behind the scene are. We have video and audio people moderators, people who do notes and time stamps for
the show. We have call screeners. We have an enormous number of people who work on the show, so I I, yeah, look at that.
They do all the hard work, so we don't really have to sit here in flap argums. It's the easiest part of the job.
Look at all those lovely people who are also so kind as to have their cameras on so we can see real faces and not just a bunch of icons when we're going and thanking them. So I appreciate that, and I appreciate the fantastic facial hair that so many of them have. Man if I could grow facial hair, yeah, I mean yours is. I have a lot of good facial hair. I'm gonna say this on this show. I don't I don't know how that happens.
It's where the wisdom comes from. The more you look like a wizard, I love it.
Yeah, there are not a lot of like dyed blonde wizards in most fantasy canon unfortunately. So we have a call from d who goes by them in Iowa, who says that they used to believe in demons, but throughout deconversion came to believe they are weaknesses in the mind that can be eradicated by education, compassion, and reason. So bringing d on, Hey, d I mean I love your initial take on demons. Tell us what your what your thoughts are?
Hey, Sophia, nice too, nice to finally get to speak with you. Yeah, hello again, Jamie, Hello again. And yeah. So in my very early twenties, I had a lot of very rare types of experiences, and one that stays with me that I was able to deconstruct on my own was it was fairly dramatic. I had contracted pneumonia and I was in the hospital and it was in the middle of the night, and my hospital room door opened and this little squat thing comes walking in. Definitely,
I mean definitely. You look at it and you think demon. Okay, I'm like, oh my god, there's a demon in my room. And it walked straight up to my bed and it wasn't it wasn't even tall enough for the top of its head to reach the mattress. But it reached its hand up to me and he said, if you take my hand, your suffering will stop. Basically, come with me and everything will be okay. And instead of accepting I was like, no, that was all I had the strength
to say, but it was no, and it vanished. And you know, after I'd recovered, I was out of the hospital and went to my doctor with a for a check up. And that was when my doctor told me that I was dying. I was, I was literally dying. The nurses were just waiting to call it. So that sucked the hell out of me. And I started really thinking, you know, about the significance of this, this creature in
my room. And as I thought about it and thought about it, I realized, are either of you familiar with dungeons and dragons?
I'm playing a game right now.
I am. I'm married to a big aficionado, and I've also played a decent American.
Okay, so do you know the cover of one of the handbooks? It has this demonic statue in it with flames. I'll bet your three year old books you'll find it.
I can I know the types of artwork that are on the front. Course I can't. I can't think of the exact artwork you're mentioned, but I can imagine.
It, and I'm not.
But yes, yeah, it was the spitting image of that cover. And I also was an avid avid Dungeons and Dragons playing player, and coupled with that, uh, coupled with that experience, and it's it's the old. It's the first it's the first player's handbook cover.
Oh right, a little bit before my time I got. I got in in third edition. So so D and D original and a D and D are a little bit a bit old for me.
Oh my gosh. If you just siphened first D and D Player's handbook cover, it comes up right away, and I can totally see what you mean. It's it's a fat little dude who's got the pliny teeth and the little ears. I totally see what you mean about that. Looks like a conception of a team.
And for sure, uh huh, it was exactly that was exactly the thing, except for the color was different. It was kind of a muddy brown. But you know, with what my doctor told me, and you know, I realized at that moment it was not really a demon, that it was a figment of a mind that was under stress and dying, and it, for some reason, if my mind was trying to comfort me, it came up with the worst possible thing it could maybe that it was. I think that it was an innate attempt to hang on,
if you see what I mean. And so that is why. And unfortunately I went through many, many, many more years in fundamentalist Christianity, but I never shook that feeling that demons are a figment of what's going on in your brain and your life, and that you need to try to be reasonable and search out people who are reasonable, not necessarily in your church. I turned to them less and less as time went on. But yeah, compassion, reason and education, that's that's what we need.
It is, and that's what we promote here. And as I said in the cold open like, there are symptoms that we can eat easily identify as coming from certain maladies that are often attributed to demonic possession and that kind of thing. One of the problems, though, is that we can be as compassionate and reasonable and evidence based as what as we like getting that message across and having people accept it. I mean, that's why we do
these shows. I mean, we can say these things until we're blue in the face, but until believers start actually accepting that these things are just imagination fuel sparked by their priming to believe in the supernatural. We can't. You can lead someone to the facts, and you can lead someone to the evidence, but they are the ones that have to accept it. You can't force someone to let
go of these irrationalities. We just have to hope that when people like yourself come on and give us examples of your own deconversion and your own rationale around these experiences that you had, that someone out there is going, man, I had a very similar experience. Maybe I should start asking few questions like D did. So thank you for calling in for that.
Yeah, absolutely, I'm sorry. I didn't want to cut on your cut on your line, but go ahead. I think about how you know, growing up in the church, and you probably experienced this too. I've heard similar stories that end with and that's how I know God is real. A demon tried to tempt me with, you know, removing my pain, and that's such a classic kind of story.
So I so appreciate that this story has a different ending that you looked at it and we're like, I've seen that demon before, though I was clearly this was suggested to me, and that's why I'm seeing that we have a bit of an alarm. Go I don't know I'm hearing that in the spinner, I don't, okay, I think Jamie's looking to see if there's something. But but yeah,
so I really appreciate that. It's like it actually made you more critical instead of less critical, because it was this big emotional experience, like have you ever watched BoJack Horsemen of All Things? Yeah, it's a cartoon on I think in Netflix, and it's it's if you struggle with mental illness. I found a lot of value in it because a lot it's about a sad horse who used
to be famous in the nineties. But there's an episode where he is dying and he has quite a few uh flashes into like different parts of his life, and so he at one point asks, is this you know? Is this the afterlife? Am I in heaven? Is this purgatory? What's going on? And one of the people that he's seeing turns to him and just says, no, this is just what your brain doing, what it does you know as you're dying, This is the pieces that are firing off.
And I thought that was you know, it can still be meaningful and it can still have meant something, but it doesn't have to lead to uncritical belief in God. So I'm curious, why do you think that others take a different track, Because I know that, you know, you have a background of faith. I have back in the faith, so often people take this different storyline. Why do you think that might be?
Well, I think for me, I was just beginning my fundamentalist journey. I hadn't tipped full tilt into it yet. And while I had, I had imagery. I had a children's Bible, I had imagery of Jesus around me growing up. My parents were not religious. So I think that that's the main thing, that the main difference there, I think, And I think that maybe you know, people just handle trauma differently. And yeah, I'm sorry, No, that was basically my full thought.
Yeah, I mean, from my perspective, it's ironic. I actually think that some people hold onto these beliefs because they find it more comfortable to believe that there are evil entities and that causing harm. Rather than face the fact that the world is just a natural place that can be cold and cruel and uncaring and unfair. People would prefer to believe in a malevolent intelligence rather than what
seems to be random. It's one of the reasons. I think people will forgive and handwave the character of God despite the fact that he's got a bit of a track record of doing horrific, horrific things in the Bible. They'd rather have have an all powerful despot than no guidance at all. And it's that fear of the unknown and being unable to control every aspect of the life. Because if it's a demon, that means it's a thing. And if it's a thing, you can fight the thing.
You know, it's it's something you can you can actually combat. But I just think it's weirdly as traumatic as it is, it's comfortable.
Yeah, well, I'm a born skeptic. You know, even some of the you know how watered down children's Bibles can be. Even some of the things I read in my children's Bible, I was like, what, you know? And the fundamentalism was just a search, you know, just a short a short run on a short highway that I was looking for something. I didn't know it at the time, but I was dealing with PTSD ADHD bipolar disease that all of that
wasn't even diagnosed until years later. So I had a lot of stuff going on and I was found a community that I was comfortable in, but eventually sid things happened and my mindset changed and I got out of it.
Yeah, I feel like something that I particularly with bipolar deserted, that the illusions are part of that, that actually being presented with evidence of paranoia somehow, or being able to interpret things as evidence for things that are not really there. I think people sort of forget that that's part of bipolar disorder a lot of the time. But I feel like it's so you see how it feels to me like the church takes advantage of that a lot of the time. Right, They don't bother to learn about what
this could be. It's just that, oh, well, you know, obviously you saw a demon. It's a demon, you know, not maybe it's nothing's chasing you. Maybe you're having a medical crisis. You know, that's very different. It's interesting to me too, that we, yeah, like we lean into these ideas of demons culturally during times when there's a lot
of change. I am so not the first person to bring this up by any means, but you think about how much the world was changing in the eighties and how the Satanic panic became this big fear at the same time missing children became a big fear at the same time the AIDS crisis was happening. It's just a lot is changing in the world, so let's let's just all focus on this one thing. Yeah.
Well, if you can blame it on demons, you don't have any responsibility. And I think that I think that in some ways that might be even more powerful than believing in a god. Believing in a demon means you can blame something else is happening in your life rather than taking a good hard.
Look and seeing.
It's an interesting thought in change. Uh yeah, I mean the amount of get out of get out of responsibility free cards. Again in religious doctrines, be it like a demon. Maybe do it. I was possessed by the devil. I did it, but I'm really sorry forgive me and now you are forgiven my son, you know, confessional and all
that kind of thing. It does you know you can once you step back and start looking at these structures and these stories and these dogma, you go, yeah, this is just built so people can can control control people and justify the ills that they do. And and once you once you see it, once you spot that you're like and it's everywhere, like all of them are doing this. It's it's it's nuts and and so again that's why we kind of do what we do here. It's like,
can't you see it's like that film They Live. We're trying to put the sunglasses on them and we're having that massive back alley fight with with Roddie Roddy Piper where it's like put the glasses on. Don't you see these really obvious bad red flags in the in the things that not just in what you believe, but what your beliefs are being used to do to you.
Yeah, yeah, I was at I have heard in person a religious man that I knew during his sentencing here for child rape, say something about that he must have a demon inside him, and my brain glitched really hard, because what the hell? And my genuine thought is like, it's scarier to think you rape the child because you wanted to than it is to think that there's a demon in this person forcing them to do this bad thing.
It's scary to say that this is something humans can be driven to do and can choose to do to one another without any extraterrestrial interference. That is horrifying. I am horrified by that. It doesn't make me feel better. I realize to not think it's a demon, to not
think the devil made him do it. It gives you this out for all of humanity, that maybe if we just pray hard enough, just drive the demons out enough, just send the kids to you hardcore fundamentalist church camps enough, just remove things like dungeons, dragons in heavy metal, and just take away all satanic influences. If we just suppress gangster wrap, then the world will be better. Then people will do all of the naturally good things God wants
them to do instead of the demonic things that they're doing. Instead, when I'm like, nah, this is not it's us. It's just us, and dealing with that is harder and scarier, but at the same time it's more real. It's the only way that it will matter what we do is if we realize it is us choosing to do these evil things. So that was a bit of a speech right there.
But yeah, and it's also there is no divine justice. There is no punishment for this person after they're gone. They may have done the most heinous thing you can possibly imagine, but when they pop their clogs the same as all of us. It's blackness. There's not going to be a judge waiting for them on the other side.
Yeah, and I do have anger. Got to say in my heart that's true. Okay, tell me about that, because for me it's a very different reaction. So tell me about it being comforting.
That there's there's no forgiveness.
Basically, Yeah, I still side of the coin. Yeah, he may not get punished, but you also can't ask for forgiveness either, right, And.
Maybe that's kind of a bad part of me. I don't know.
It's not a part of it.
That some of my liberal friends are horrified that I support. But I mean, and I'm working on it. I'm I'm open to being persuaded otherwise. But I mean, if if we can't, if we can't do capital punishment, then at least we know he's not going to at least get any forgiveness out of it. I think you are the only people that forgiveness belongs to would have been the
family of that little girl. They are really the only people that could legitimately extend it, and that's their decision whether they do or not.
Oh No, I think that sometimes you know, It's interesting because for me, I took a different perspective. I like yours because it does make me feel a little better.
But you know, he's going to still even in present, he's going to be told by the other religious folks there that that's some kind of legitimate thing for him to just to conceptualize this as that he will he'll receive forgiveness, that that sin can be wa washed away, and that all sins are the same, and someone will smirk at them and say, no, one is righteous, no, not one, which has been told to me so often by Christians, even when I bring up something heinous like
child rape right at verse man nikes yeah, yeah, And so I.
Have there is yeah, I think is that if there is any cosmic justice at all in the universe, he may be granted just enough time to realize that it's all a lie.
And the thing is like no matter what happens to him, like we said that girl kind of be unerraped, and that brings a sign to the whole uva of of like divine punishment and divine justice being wrong in its receptions, Like God doesn't intercede in that horrific thing. It's part of the plan but he'll get his just desert the afterlife, don't you don't you know? And I'm like, that is not justice, that's not fair. So yeah, yet another aspect of religious dogma that I can't get on board with.
And you know, their favorite, their favorite argument is free will? What about that little girl's free will? Don't talk about free will. That's not a thing I'm.
Going to get. Like, there's there's rants I could go on about that. There's a there's a there's a yeah, there's a there's an exhibit in any music. I can't remember exactly where it was, but it's an exhibit of the clothes were worn bisexual assault victims in uh And it's the whole like, well, she was asking for it? She was seven and wearing dungarees. Was she asking for it? How was she asking for it? And it boils my blood. I've been a step dad, I've been in charge of kids.
I have had that protective kind of thing and just the idea of someone Yeah, I canrdly put it into words. I can only just put it into like angry sounds basically, and to have it justified.
Oh no, no, no, no, I got you. I got your demonic. I got your demonic exorcism right here, and.
Do you will exercise? Yeah? I love it all right. Well, we've kept you on for a while.
I needed to share.
I appreciate that a lot. Thank you so much for calling. It was really nice to be able to chat with you. I've heard you the show before and I just appreciate your presence in many ways. And yeah, thanks for being here to have this heavy conversation with us too.
Be Thank you you guys. You have a wonderful day.
Thank you. It's nice to sort of hear stories of deconversion in people finding finding reason and yeah, the whole divine justice thing. It's like, I've got your law and order right here.
I know it is interesting too, because I feel like a lot of the folks who want a physical, human level retribution are people who also claim to believe in a god, and I find that kind of interesting. I'm like that they don't necessarily believe. I would see it as they don't actually believe this divine justice is coming. They also want to have their moment, and it's saying that Jesus forgave this person who may have committed multiple
murders or whatever. It may be that's not good enough for them either, you know, so why act like it is for us?
Sorry? Is the thing as angry as I got that pro priest and anyone who does those heinous things, as much as I hope that they are punished for extent of the law, and if I mean, is rehabilitation possible, there's a big old discussion to get around that. I still don't think they deserve hell. I still think that hell is too extremely punishment for a crime, even that heinous. So again, these dogmas like oh hell, burn in hell forever.
That's like, there's no crime I can think of, even one that bad that would deserve eternal torment.
You know, I think for me it's a relief to not have to be deciding who deserves what and to not feel like I have any ability to determine that. I have the ability to help look at laws, past laws, discuss what is actually you know what, I have the ability to affect. But I don't need to have some big,
all encompassing idea of justice in this situation. It's I just need to think about how we live in a society with a we have now, And I've said before that it's good that I'm not in charge of all laws, because what I would feel should be done to someone who assaults a child and pretty much anyway, would be to have their skin graded off by a cheese grater and then throw them in a put an acid. You know, like, I'm like, that's pretty inhumane. I'm glad I'm not in
charge of deciding that. You know, it's a good thing for everyone, that it's not just up to me and my feelings about what some divine dictate is giving me here, you.
Know, Yeah, yeah, I think with a sort of super chat flasher, I think I did too.
I haven't seen it come through on our little messages yet, and.
This as soon as as soon as it do, we will read.
Yes, we saw you. That's what we can say, we saw you come through real quick. Before that, we can talk about our cool fundraiser. As many of you know, we have initiated Phase two of our brick fundraiser. We want to highlight some of these standout orders we've received. This week's featured brick comes from Cassie from Louisiana. Drop your faith like a brick. That's so good. I'm giving snaps because I'm a cheesy person. But that's amazing. Thank
you for your purchase, Cassie. You can get yours and put your clever little quip or something simple or whatever it is you want to put on it there at tiny dot c c slash ACA bricks. That's tiny dot cc slash ACA Bricks, and so yeah, it's I absolutely think you're making a permanent mark on the atheist community of Austin and where we're located, which is amazing. Not I guess that's why not all of the hosts are located there, but it's where the headquarters of this of
this little nest of heathens. So you get to yeah, you get to put something there. It's really special.
Actually, so yeah, something something bricked up, something something funny, because painous. Could you wanted to come up with a have a joke. I'm just going to acknowledge that there is a dirty joke to be made out of that.
I honestly feel like sometimes I'm just ready for that. Just you know, you mentioned Jenitalia, I'm I have the sense of humor of a middle school boy. Yeah. Available on tiny dot cc slash ACA Flyers our principal call in flyers as well. So post these with permission to community bulletin boards, so people know they should call our show and defend their faith. If you do post any flyers, make sure to snap a picture of it in place and send it to TV at Atheist dash Community dot org.
That's TV at Atheist dash Community dot org. And we may feature your photo on an upcoming show. So yeah, stick these up. Also, you know, just tell your friends if you get into an argument about religion or something like that and you're like, you should really give a call to this show and discuss it with the people who have signed on to discuss this with you. That's definitely a good idea.
Indeed, and have we perhaps I don't know whether I'm jumping around in the script, but maybe you should also thank some patron. Is that something we can.
Yes, we will get there in one moment. First, I'm going to tell everyone to follow talk Heathen on TikTok Talk Heathen, just one word, Talk Heathen and join us for pre show lives at the ACA TikTok, which is Atheist Community of Bustin. So talk Heathen on TikTok, Atheist Community of Boston on TikTok as well. And those are pretty great okay, I see where arets are. Also, we have merch get your talk Heathen merch at tiny dot cc slash merch Aca, tiny dot cc slash merch Aca.
I need to get one of those wenesies. I keep not doing it. I need to do it. And then yeah, because I just had the baby and I think that's amazing and people being like, what is this logo on your child? Yeah, there's all sorts of goodies there. So definitely go to tiny dot cc slash merch Aca. I think I said that wrong. It's merches first. Merch Aca.
Please like this video and subscribe to the channel, do all the things that help us enablementifications, and comment below on your favorite caller or your thoughts on demons or your favorite demon. I mean, come on, why not? And uh so, yeah, all right, I see there are super chats that were made in Giant Giant Fought Now so that I will be able to see them very obviously. I feel like I'm a bit notorious for missing things that are very clearly in our show document. So yes,
here are some super chats we have. We have Nero five dollars and says so D saw a tiny grand duke Moloch, Lord of the sixth Circle, viceroyal bells above Lucky also three point five e is that experienced superiority slay the gods. I love that Nero had much of a better idea of going on then.
We us three point five edition. I bet Nero place path find now. But he's one of those people anyway.
Well, he'll have to let you send it another super chat to let us know. I'm like, thank you for the five dollars. We want to keep knowing more about your depth of knowledge of this particular story. We have less than Lucid, who sent six dollars and sixty six cents. Aah love it. Hey, quick reminder that it is Ace week. Asexuals are all valid. That is true. We celebrate all of the sexualities here on the show SLASH, at least when we're hosting. I think everybody does. But yeah, being
ace is totally valid. I think it gets short shift sometimes it's it's not discussed openly, but it is totally possible to simply not be particularly sexually interested in folks. And there's even a spectrum within that I know, And so yeah, that's that's awesome. I also recommend but Jack Horseman again because as a really major ACE character with a wonderful storyline about it.
Oh, the several the several content creators on the internet either are ACE. I very much enjoy Jade Animations is one and overly sarcastic productions. Read can recommend their content very good. They're also both ero ace and are awesome. People can recommend I love it.
You know, all the people I know who are a are awesome people just as like a sage. Note, I don't huh.
This is one of the frustrating things that I see about Whenever the whole like anti LGBT or anti trans or any any sort of thing comes out, it almost seems surreal because I'm like, have you met any of these people? Because every single one I've met has been a singularly excellent person like and also weirdly talented.
It's true.
Actually, yeah, every single trans person I've known personally has either been like a doctor or a physicist or a rocket sign taste or like, I mean, I don't know what it is. Maybe you get magic fucking powers to as a as A as a compensation for all the horrific months since you've got to put up with as a marginalized person.
But I hope so I feel like that would be that would be just you know, I would say though, and I'm sure I am sort of assuming you agree with this too, is that even if you are a total piece of shit, you deserve rights. So even if you were a transperson who also is just like I'm just going to be a meani, then you still deserve rights. Just don't be a meani. I would recommend I have another super chat from some kind of Dicky who is a member of one month. Thank you very much for
being a member, sent five dollars. If you can blame demons, you don't have to take responsibility collar D quoted for truth. I love that.
Also, some kind of speaking of D and D sometimes some kind of Dicky is our DM. He's hard Engin master. So thank you, Scott.
That's really cool. I didn't I didn't know that actually. And then Richard, Okay, I still am not sure if it's Giliver or Gilver, and I'm going to feel like an idiot about this, but you all know him in Lovin. It's a member of two years who and our producers at five pounds because he's British and fancy I don't know why all British things are fancy. They just are to me. But I'm just going to call the keyboard warrior theis out, stop preaching and start calling. It's really
really easy to do. Yes, give us some calls, you keyboard warriors. Yes, I'm sure your mouth can move faster than your fingers. I don't need as far. The implications are saying.
That, I guess far easier to stand and heckle at the sidelines than suffer the spear at the point of at tech.
I love it. That's hard. I like that a lot. What is that from?
Are you paraphrasing from King Ralph? Speaking of British people and American people and royalty and stuff? So pretty funny film that once John Goodman becomes the King of England.
Oh my gosh, that sounds great. I love He's one of my celebrity presses. Weirdly, I know that's a strange one for some people, but who doesn't loved Goodman anyway? All right, So we actually have another caller, Bruce he him from Alabama, on their approach to atheism. Instead of preaching at theis, ask questions and talk about the mechanisms behind their beliefs. Okay, let's talk about that. Bruce. Tell me about your approach to atheism and what's going on there.
So, what we do a lot of times as atheist is we approached the subject, but the way we would talk to another intellect, for instance, we say, Okay, I've got these facts that disprove of God, or you know your facts that prove of God. Here, I'm going to show how those are fallacious. I think an approach that I've used more is to say ask questions like, Okay, faith is a virtue, why that's not a behavior of
an institution is trying to give you truth. If it was truth, they would say, look at the fact, But rather they say they present this mechanism that you would expect to hear from a car used car salesman.
You follow me, Yeah, I'm actually jotting that down. I'm like, that's a good question.
Yeah.
Other examples might be, you know, people say, okay, I've got this proof that the world is six thousand years old, and we come back and say, oh, that's not proof because of this, Well, they have a defense mechanism that they've been taught against.
That.
So if you take it to the next step and say, okay, if they had to do this, if they had to use this fallacious argument, that's a behavior again of something that is someone that is trying to sell you something rather than something just trying someone is trying to give you a truth.
You follow me, I think so though I would I would push back slightly. I'm sorry, go ahead, I'd say I pushed back slightly, because if you're trying to convince them that that that these are techniques that are given to them by organizations and thought process thought models that are not heeding towards truth, they will say, no, I have the truth. It has to be revealed to me.
Like they are convinced they are they have the truth, and so they won't see that they're not being given truth seeking tools or maybe a misunderstanding.
I'm not saying just simply push back and say they're.
Lying to no, no, no, no, no, but like, but trying to convince them that they are they that the systems in which they work are ones that are patently not encouraging proper truth seeking, I think would bounce off most like true believers, because they are convinced they have the truth. It has been revealed to them by the Lord. It is written on their hearts. How do you get how do you get around that?
Yeah, but I have had success with this argument. But I'm trying to actually bypass that. Their their arguments are to push back the reflexes, to push back on the fact. Like if I come to them and I'd say, I have this larger argument again, problem of evil. Oh but if you free will because you all this, and if you instead of saying pointing out the problems with their counter argument, you say why you know you approach the mechanisms behind their faith and say, now, honestly ask you yourself,
why is this way? I have had some success.
With that, So may I ask, oh, sorry, go ahead, what.
Was your point?
What is the response? How do people tend to when you say have had success with this? What's kind of their their response? How do you know you've had success with it? I guess I'm not questioning you. I'm just wondering what does that look like?
The reaction is sometimes they shut down like you, like you said, and other times it just throws them for a loop. And I've had people come back to me later and say I've had to think about that one.
You know, what I mean response, I have to think about it like it Yeah, And my.
Point is sort of to get around that that training that they've had to say, oh, this is the truth to send your faith. I've had this apologetics training. Well you look the apologetics training, you know. Another example would be to point out the apologists institutions are all they have these arguments that've been debunked for years and they're still presenting them. Okay, I'll push back on that, but then you say why is there Yeah.
Kind of taking the making the picture bigger. I feel like I think about how when I was younger and in the church, it was a Baptist church that I frequented at the time, you were pretty much trained to give all sorts of arguments, and you were given all the books of Case Very Creator and Case for Christ.
And you know, I actually read them, and it's a little embarrassing to say that when I look back at them, things that I thought were totally reasonable and logical, I would look at now and be like, how did I think this? But to move on from head to head argument, it sounds like you're saying to say, like, well, why
are these books all packaged? And why is this sort of shoved into you in youth group, like that's kind of an odd thing, don't you think that that's sort of a weird thing to do or making looking at the context of the arguments that we're making, maybe looking at the context of how this church is operating in the world and questioning that maybe instead of getting into like a head to head argument. It also feels a little bit like this is going to be maybe a
little squishy sounding. But I think oftentimes the public faith of atheism is just debates. It's debates all the time. It's facts on facts, and atheists just like to debate facts, and they're easily marginalized or characterized as here's this, you know, atheist who just wants so bad to reject God that they're just gonna pick on all these little things, which
doesn't feel right. As an atheist, I don't feel that's true, But that's how it was characterized to me when I was part of the church, and I bought into that, and that was what I saw of atheism. So to have someone questioning more about I would say, almost the softer bits of religion, the things that aren't here, go fight for your faith. But that are like, you know, this is kind of an odd thing to do, Like, why do you think they're doing this? I think that
that's I think there's some legitimacy to that for sure, personally. Anyway, may I ask, I know you're in Alabama, were you always an atheist or were you a person of faith at a time?
It was a bizarre trip journey. I was born in East Tennessee and the Appalachian Mountains, which is thick Baptists, so I was raised in the Baptist tradition. Had had some questions was atheists when I was a teenager, actually reconverted I guess you would call it one. In my twenties was went to Methodists, then converted to Catholicism. And then one day, you know, I'd always been questioning the question type and then one day, I can tell you the exact spot I was driving, I thought, you know,
you just believe because you want to believe. That's the only reason. And from that point on, I certain identifying as atheists.
It takes to do that, I'm sorry. It takes a lot of introspection to do that. It takes a lot of bravery and mental honestly, honestly, thought to just realize that it was.
A very, very long trip. Yeah, that's a very long journey. And today I still I still have to intellectually keep open the idea that theism could remotely there could be for some pharmacism, especially with all of the different definitions of the God. I think, I think Christianity is touch at the bottom of the list as far as the possibilities. But you know, there's all way up to the out of Spinosa, which.
Is a nature.
Yeah, yeah, that the laws of physics of the universe can be defined if a god. Now I kind of think that's a cop out.
Uh, but I mean living in the time he was living, and I can't start of see yeah, sorry, just I'm I'm a big Spinosa fan. Actually, sofia Spina comes from Spinoza. Spina is a version of yeah Spinosa. Anyway, I kind of agree that if somebody would argue that, to me,
it's a bit of a cop out. But I also look at the time he was living in and when he was characterized as an atheist, he was more maligned, he was in more danger physically, and he was already excommunicated from his community at this at this point and they were a community of Jewish folks who'd had to move to the Netherlands because they were You probably know all this, so I'm just saying this kind of for the record. But they had to move to the Netherlands
because they were being persecuted in Spain. So he was already run out of places for the particular slant of religion that his community had. So I wonder a little bit if his version of God was so that he could say I'm not an atheist. So he had a version of God, and maybe that was pragmatic rather than an earnest belief. I don't know. I cannot speak for Spinoza, but I definitely I would say if somebody argued that now, I would see it as a bit of a cop out.
I agree, But I wonder about the context with that one.
I mean, it's the reason why I called myself an agnostic for a long time, because it was safer, it was easier, it was more accepted. It's still true, like I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't know that God doesn't exist. I can I can define certain gods as illogical for existing. Any triomne like I do not believe exists because it's logically not possible to do that, like the problem of evil, problem of divine hiddenness, you know, but that's not every god or every god concept. So I and I don't
like making truth claims on gods. I much prefer to say, you have a belief in this this particular definition of a god. Can you demonstrate it to me? Is it demonstrable? And certain god definitions like deism, No, it isn't demonstrable, And all I can say to that is then then it is useless to me. It is indistinguishable from a universe that does not have a god. So it's a pointless belief in my opinion. But we're geting a little
bit off track. Is there anything else that's on your mind then, Chief, No, just I.
Just like to encourage people to give that approach a shot.
You know.
The big question is I mean probably the most important question in asking that is sort of ask questions that lead you to stop and think about why is this belief or why is questioning discouraged or seeing as something that needs to be fixed in the community if they're talking about truth. So I think that that's sort of sound what I'm.
Going with this ahead, Well, I appreciate that a lot. Yeah, I'm going to say bye to you at this moment because then we've got to read our patreons. But I
really appreciate that perspective personally. I look at it and I think, like, for me in my deconversion journey, I knew so many arguments that I'd memorized, so many arguments for sieccess in your Earth even at one point, or that we're anti evolution, and having questions about the institutions that were teaching me did come before being open to the scientific aspects of things or like the demonstrated proofs
of things. And I don't know if that's you know, I don't think there's one right way for someone to be deconverted. I think different things are going to speak to different people. But for me, I had to be open to the idea that the institution was wrong first, and then I started realizing that I had been I don't know if it's lied to, but certainly misled about science. I thought that Lucy was the only specimen from you know, her ere that we had of something that came before humans.
I thought that a six thousand year Earth, I had to say that it was possible because I had to say that all things were possible through God, so I couldn't really say it was impossible. And I'm like, if I was able to side step that, I was able to start seeing a lot more of reality, a lot more truth. So I think I needed that kind of approach personally also because it enabled me now as an atheist to look back and be like, oh, yeah, I know what arguments you're making, and I can see where
you're not being told things. I can see what you're being lied to about, and let's discuss the lies.
Maybe yeah, I didn't know. I liked his final point, like like, ask them, are you allowed to question like these tenets? And if not, why not? That's an interesting, interesting line of thought.
I did get the sense that this didn't fully sit right with you initially. Is that?
Yeah?
I mean, thinking back on some of the calls I've taken on the show and the conversations I've had with people, there are certain theists and certain theistic mindsets that are completely inassailable from that kind of by having questioned their epistemology, that like, why do you believe what you believe? Like any presupposition list, and it will just flat out go no,
like God exists and must exist. I presuppose that God exists, therefore he does and and that's one of the reasons why that they're one of my least favorite conversations to have in terms of I get easily frustrated with it because it just feels that it feels very you're not even going to countenance like you're going to just assume you're right, you declare you're right, therefore you're right kind
of thing. So I think there are certain theistic mindsets and dogmas that that technique that Bruce was espousing would just bounce straight off.
I could definitely see that as well. Got to say, I think it's like any conversion, a deconversion is going to take different things and different kinds of arguments. I think that's some of the strength of this show actually, is that there's people who make arguments that are so different from anyone I would ever make that it speaks to a lot of different kinds of people. I guess, yeah, real quick, super chat before we go to Patreon's, we have a super chat from Sydney Plaza, which sounds like
a place. I love it. Five euros who also fancy youroes. I guess I'm not a rocket scientist or a doctor, but as you can attest, I'm a pretty good healer smiley face.
Because Cindy is our healer in our in our D and D game has literally saved my bacon on a couple of a couple of occasions. Because I'm the main DPS. I'm a monk. So I'm in there mixing it up and she's back there going heal and heal again. Will you stop getting he again? I've already died once I got better.
Yeah, that's great. I was hoping. I was reading it being like, I'm guessing Jamie will know what this means, because I'm like I don't. I don't know.
But that's great D and D cruise in the audience. So yeah, prop swallow, I love it.
If you're a D and D person and have not yet done Stormlight Archive, which is coming out with the tabletop RPG next year, I would I would personally recommend that I'm obsessed. It's another epic fantasy story and then anyway, I love it. So I just am going to say drop this with Dandie folks, new tabletop board game, dropping that I am insanely excited about as a similar mechanism anyway.
Patreons Top five patreons here we have number one Oops All Singularity, two Dingleberry Jackson, three Coleevi Helvetti, which I can only say if I try not to think about it, Number four left in the leaves, Number five Neil the six oh four Atheist, and then an honorable mention to Carol Lynn, the only reasonable name on this list. Thank you for everyone who gives to us on Patreon. If you want to have your name right on the air, then please consider supporting us at tiny dot cc slash patreon.
Th that's tiny dot cc slash patreon th for talk even Yeah. On that note, we have started recording the Talk Heathen discord after show for all levels of paid patrons, So if you are you know, even a low levels here, you get this too. If you want more content and a more informal look at the host, then join our Patreon where yeah, you get to hear us chat about all sorts of things like I feel like it is kind of interesting how far afield it gets. It's not necessarily atheism.
And while and while it's not, it's corrolatory rather than causative. There is a big overlap in atheist and nerd. We're all different stripes and nerds in the in the discord. So, and we're going to be having an after show after this one. I'll be there, I believe are our producer and backup host Richard will be there as well, and we will be talking all kinds of complete bollocks. It'd be great.
Again. Even the swear words fancy from British people. Yeah. So there's also one more super chat that just came in. It's I think I'm going to say this, David Haxell hasor. Yeah, there's some fours. So David Hacksor who's been a member for two months, who gives five Canadian dollars, even though my brain wants to say it's five Californian dollars, but that's not the thing. When well, the Olympics except D and D as an official event, maybe I'd watch them.
I love the idea of this. I am curious as to the logistics.
Yeah, the only competitive thing I've seen in D and D is like who can get the GM to break first?
Yes, I think that's fair. That is total love and.
That's a seven point six from the British Churche. It seems that the DM has broken down in tears as they have wandered off the meticulously made story that you made for them and have started doing fart jokes.
Hey, any good DM is going to know that there's probably going to be some far jokes at some point like this. You know. Maybe maybe that's just the groups I play with, but yeah, I love it. I feel like it would be a really good cultural study, Like how would different you know, nations play with. They have different strategies, different little cultures within that they tend toward.
And interestingly enough, because I mean this is not a D and D podcast by any times, we are still talking about religion. But religion is basically science in these stories, in these fantasies, because gods are real, you can talk to them and you can reliably invoke their power. It's not faith like faith is what's like you're a cleric, you're a priest, whatever, and you believe in a god and you can have divine inspiration. But it works in the same way as like just putting up a lightning
rod or turning on a car engine. You say these words and then magic occurs and it's like and it does it every single time, demonstrably, there's no mystery to it. It's fascinating that religion in the fancy world is nothing like religion in the real world.
Yeah, oh my gosh. There's so many things from a Sermlie archive I could talk about here, but I won't because yeah, I guess I just jaming in particularly, I think you should read it so I can talk to you about it, because I need it so much. One more D and D comment and then we will take another call because we have another super chat and it's specifically in regards to D and d's from Miranda Rensburger, who's been a member for six months. We love Breanda Rensberger,
who sent five dollars. So Jamie is the D and D version of what we in the medical world call a frequent flyer, one who keeps showing up in the er over and over for random shit.
Oh it's yeah, well, it's it's the it's the life of the it's the life of the frontline fighter. You're going to get mauled quite often. And yes, it's so nice to have our cy India there in the back making sure I don't shuffle off the mortal coil again.
I love that I am going to recap the D and D for for a moment so we can go on to a caller. But I kind of love that this has become a theme of today. There's demons and D and D. That's what we have. That's what today's show has kind of been about. All right, So we have a caller who is a theist whose name is Dave. He him from India, and Dave is going to talk to us about how medical metaphysical reality points toward a God. All right, Dave, tell us about your thoughts on metaphysical
reality and God. Hey, my kid, hi, I think I could hear my own voice in the background. So if you have anything like the show playing in the background, if you could mute it, that would be awesome. But I don't have anything.
I have nothing in the background, So.
Go ahead and tell us, tell us what's going on.
Yeah, I just wanted to say that there are certain books for actual projections after without travels, and there are a lot of people who who claim to have that achieve that kind of experience. But I just wanted to say that that experience might point towards the God.
Well, the word claim is big, bold, fiery letters in that sentence. They claim to have done it. Can they actually demonstrate it under controlled conditions?
Yeah? Responsible, the experience can be I'm sorry, I just didn't know. If you're you keep going.
So you can quantify the experience. You can measure the blood pressure level, you can make it the heartbeat, you can make it different kinds of things to quantify the experience. And once everyone is in the same state, they will have the same experience, and then we can get the message to the same way.
So but I think, yeah, so, I mean, yes, we can see that they're having an experience. I mean I have an experience when I try and walk upstairs too quick. But it's it's the astral projection part that I'm talking about, Like we can Yes, you can hook them up to an EEG and see the brainwave patterns things. But it's the same in secular meditation. You can achieve certain brain states and body states through breathing control and mindfulness. There's
nothing mystic or supernatural about it. You've got to prove the supernatural. You to demonstrate the supernatural aspect. Can you do that? Yeah?
So, I would say too. Part to it. The first part is that when we go to like this flat and you you go to some kind of bride, the expem to get when you're coming down or going up all of a sudden, the feeling that they get that is very similar to the experience that I'm talking about. So in that sense, it's fortifiable.
There are still other ways to achieve it. I understand what you're saying. I think there's just so many other ways to achieve that that aren't actual astral projection. Our brains can do a whole lot, Like what do we If we hear something or someone talk about something, we can become emotional, right, and it will actually change our physical state just from hearing somebody talk about something passionately.
If you're sitting and listening to music and that music is emotional, it might even give you goosebumps if somebody hits a particular note and it's changing your physical state, and that can be in a really dramatic way. So I look at it and I'm like, all right, people
are claiming they astral projected. We have a lot of evidence that folks can have experiences that seem like or feel like they're actual projecting when they aren't doing anything that is inexplicable, they are putting themselves in a maybe trans like state on purpose or through meditation in some way. Why would it be more likely that that would be proof of a god or even a metaphysical realm, then that they're doing these things that we know are physically possible.
Okay, we gotta we gotta hold on, hold on, that's too much in all one time. I'm not a debate or something like that. So yeah, I just want to say. The first thing, which uh, which I think, uh, they said, is that the supernatural part, I agree, there is nothing supernatural to it. And the second part with you are thinking is that they can feed the Google bump with the new big and then you can people claim that they have a supernatural but meditative state. So I do
agree to and that's where I'm stuck up to. That is exactly what.
I realized to.
But the thing is, there are so many people in my country who claim to have gone all the day, so they know that the path is much longer than what I have already covered. So what it will be talking about is like base things, and there are much advanced things which can be a tie if you keep that the thing for the long wither with two diligions and the tenant information.
I mean, a lot of people in my country claim that they speak in tongues and really honestly believe it and have entire complex, you know, feelings about things that they've encountered or communicated when they do. So, we're sort of just saying a lot of people said so, so maybe it's true, And that doesn't seem like a very strong argument to me.
It is in fact a fallacy the appeal to appeal to you majority, or whatever the name of it is. But here let's take a difference act in tybe. Let's say, for the psych of argument, that you can prove move that astral projection actually is a real phenomena, that a person can leave their physical body and have experiences outside it in some kind of incorporeal form, be it distance viewing or hearing conversations far away, or even communicating with
other people telepathically. I still don't see how that proves anything other than that astral projection is a phenomena in the world and therefore likely has a natural explanation and doesn't really get you any further to God, because there's plenty of things that have been ascribed to God that we have found to be natural, Like back in the day, lightning came from the gods. But I can set up a Vandergraft generator and make lightning in my own home if I was bonkers enough. So what do you say
to that? How does astral projection, even if it was real, prove a God.
So the degrees of freedom are just increasing. Day by day, we are getting more and more degrees of freedom. You are much older, older than me, You're much wiser than me. You have lived in a much advanced country than me, you have much better information than me. So that's what I'm saying, that the degrees of freedom are just increasing. So if they keep increasing in the same way, ultimately we'll read the point, well, everything will the domatic.
So it seems like the argument here is that because culture changes and we learn new things, maybe about science or technology or the world around us scientifically, that maybe that happens spiritually as well. Is that kind of what we're going with?
I was, yeah, the culture will change, Yeah, okay, yeah, I would say that.
I don't know that that's a parallel that I can quite get on board with here because we can also say that. I don't know, I'm trying to think of a of a good analogy because that was a little little out of left field feeling.
I feel like, yeah, you're still going for gold in those non secutary Olympics there, Dave. I mean, you just speed off into talking about we becoming more free. I don't exactly know what you meant by that, even after you tried to explain it. My question actually was if astral projection is real, how does it prove a god? And you said we are becoming more free? That makes
zero sense. So do you actually have any kind of explanation as to how, even if it was real, astral projection would indicate a god.
So the thing is, look at the history that we have had at ads, with blood being shed, all of thought, and even today if you go to the forest the Jungles, you will see exactly that kind of animosity.
And that kind of stop stop stop stop stop stop stop. You've just completely failed to answer my question twice, and you've gone on an on secutur twice. I'm going to do it one more time and then I'm going to give up, and then Sofia, you can do whatever you like. If astral projection was real, tell me how how that would indicate that God is real as you claim.
Because if you go back to a certain a few years, they were completely denying these experiences blatantly.
And now I'm already giving you that astral projection is real. Dave really starting to get me on my edge now, So I'm gonna calm down. Yeah, Sophie, So.
Hey, Dave, I'm dropping you, but I'm gonna kind of finish this real quick address. I think I see a bit of what you're trying to go toward, which is that maybe we can sort of evolve as spiritual beings. So astral projection would eventually lead to a God. That sounds like a fantasy story to me. I also want to point out that when we talk about culture advancing
or things like that, we're starting to hedge. We're like a sneeze away from eugenics basically, where we're almost saying things like, well, this, this culture is superior or better, and they're times in history we knew less about science that we knew you know less about how to you know, make sure people don't die of bacterial infection, and those
those are good things. But I think to say that a culture is inherently better or more advanced in some sort of human way, are we more compassionate or more empathetic? I would actually argue that's possibly the opposite. So I think I am going to challenge that idea of cultures being able to be put on some ranking scale in the same way that scientific discoveries can be built upon. It doesn't really work that way. Culture changes but not
always for the better. And that's kind of a strange assumption to be making, I think, or one that can be lead very quickly into saying that a people is superior to another people, and I don't think that's true, and I want to kind of reject that pretty outright. Yeah, Jamie, how you doing?
Apologies for losing my shit. They're very unbecoming. But it's incredibly frustrating where I'm like, I'm going to grant you the thing. I'm going to grant give you all the toys, astral projections. Real, fine, fuck it great? How does that lead us to God? And three times he just completely doesn't just goes off on a tangent, and he's done it in previous calls. He's called in before, and it's
always the same. You're asking a direct question and he just goes off on some baffling tangent and I'm like, can you just answer my damn question? So frustrating me.
Yeah, I think I definitely definitely get that, and like, I feel like you apologize for having emotions too too much, because I'm like, eh, you know, it's an emotional, it's an interesting thing.
It's supposed to be the chill one. I feel like I'm derelict in duty.
Because I'm usually very British, very chill for being British. I do the same thing to my Australian husband for being Australian, which I would argue there's a continue of British to American and Australians are closer to the British then. But anyway, I encourage people to comment about that because I feel like sometimes I say that people find it very upsetting chicile Australians for some reason. But anyway, we have one more super chat and then we're actually gonna
just go ahead and wrap up for today. So we have a super chat again from David hex Or I say that right, who's been a member for two months who sent in five Canadian dollars saying, what's the difference between astral projection and zoom?
I know, we are instantly communicating using nothing but the movement of electrons over massive distances. Right now, we are doing the magic as we speak.
Yeah, I feel like it's interesting when I think about the fact that the argument we make against I was a Harry Potter kid, right, I grew up in that era. I disagree vehemently with many of the creator's views. However, when I think about Hogwarts and so much that you were able to do in the magical world, we can just do that now. It's not really that special. To do it with magic is to do it with science. And I feel like religion is kind of going the same way. A lot of the things people talk about.
Even when there's like an amazing miracle healing, it's like, well, the miracle of science has healed way more people than that, and it took you know, it's more consistent. It's not just hoping that this will work out. So we were replacing the need for religion, I would argue, yes.
Let us assure you I am I am being projected into your countenances. Audience I'm not physically inside your television or room or phone.
And I maybe I'm just being projected right into your hearts. So let's the prompt for this week again is complete the sentence it was a mistake when God blank. That's our prompt for this week. Reply in the comments and tune in at the beginning of next week's episode to hear the top three answers. And we want to thank Richard for helping out today. It's you gonna pop up, Richard and tell us your feelings. Okay, Jilliver or Gilliver? What kind of g It's a soft soft ge Okay, like Guppie.
Liver, like like anything that's the soft gee, like.
Giff not gift.
I hope we get comments about that gift comment. You gotta say. Okay, thank you.
You are mother than welcome. Great show, guys. We've had some good calls D as everyone knows from the other week when she made me cry. I love D.
You know, a great call.
I've you know, seen things in the dark. I used to be the kind of residents skeptic on the ghost hunting team, so I've been in this situation where you know, things that are strange happen in that situation, But we must understand the context of that and the way the brain works. Sophia will know is that there are two
parts to how we assess information. We have memory, those things that have built up, those things that we assess the world over time that we've learnt, and then we have the information which comes straight into our head via our sense organs. Now, when we are doing things like ghost hunts, or we're asleep at night, or we're in strange locations, what happens when we wake up and something kind of unusual happens is that those we're trying to
cross reference those things all the time. We're trying to cross reference those things we know from experience and those things which are coming into our sense organs. So what happens in a lot of cases, and we see this a lot in things like people go ghost hunting, people who are in strange locations, is our brain makes up
a narrative based on what's happening. So we can if we are predisposed to believing in ghosts, if we are predisposed to believing in supernatural or non normative events, then our brain is going to put that information that's coming to that little bit of information that's coming in with that predisposition and create a narrative for it. And that is why we have these experiences of ghosts. Bruce, It's a lot more complex than that. That's a very simplified version, Bruce.
I absolutely agree with him, a great call. You know, people, one of my pet hates is atheists who just dive into theists. I released a bunch of videos on my own channel recently and I only put the title in which and it was quite misleading, and it did look like if you didn't know, I might have been a theist, if you didn't see any of the if you didn't really the description or watch the sat or watch the video,
it may have appeared like I was a theist. And so many people commented saying, you are wrong, take your God belief and stick it over your arse, and it was clear they'd not taken any context from it. It was clearly not watched the video, they not read the description. You know, atheists do better because you do come across as wanker evangelicals when you do that. And I'm not
gonna lie. David Astro travel Projection. I don't you know, all I can say on this is I had lots of dreams when I was in my early teens about a girl who lived across the road, and in these dreams, I astro projected out of my body and visited her. Although these dreams were tremendous fun for a young teenage boy, they weren't real. You know, we have to demonstrate that these things are real. I've done, great show, guys. I'm going thank you very much for the show.
Thank you so much. I love all of the equips you give. And yeah, I immediately I'm like, let's talk about the nature of memory. But I can say that for another show. Honestly, this was great. I had a lovely time here with you, Jamie. I'm gonna remember love rings this time it's in giant font. It's also like highlighted. So yes, love rings, because always forget them. But we do really love the callers. We really love folks who come in and uh, yeah, it's it's vulnerable to try
to talk on the air. It's vulnerable to talk with people you have never met before you might disagree with and we appreciate that people are willing to do that. Yeah, So you can come see us at tiny dot cec slash a C A discord, which is where we do the after show. That's tiny dot CC slash a C A discord. If you don't believe this is your community, or sorry, yes, if you don't believe, I see I'm so bad I read. Yes, it's remarkable. I was an English teacher at one point. Can you believe it? I
don't even know what a soft she is. If you don't believe, this is your community, and we appreciate you being here. If you do believe, we don't hate you, just not convinced.
We want the truth. So watch Truth Wanted live Friday at seven pm Central. Visit tiny dot cc slash y t tw and call into the show at five one two nine four two, or connect to the show online at tiny dot cc slash call tw