Talk Heathen 08.27 with Doctor Ben and @SecularSpirit

Did you know that one third of Americans believe in faith healing. However, faith healing is a dangerous practice that prays on the vulnerable and sick, often leading them away from effective medical treatment. Believe in that prayer or divine touch concutor serious illnesses can result in tragic outcomes, as individuals may delay or completely forego necessary medical interventions. This reliance on faith over science can exacerbate conditions,

cause unnecessary suffering, and even lead to preventable deaths. Moreover, faith healers often exploit their followers financially, promising miraculous cures that never materialize. It's crucial to recognize that while faith can provide comfort, it should never replace evidence based medical care. Lives depend on the responsible and informed pursuit of real, scientifically

based health care solutions. But if you think you can make a case for faith healing, then give us a call because the show is starting now. Welcome everybody. Today is July seventh, twenty twenty four. I'm your host, Doctor Ben, and joining me today is Secular Spirit. How are you doing today? Hello? Hello? How's it going? So it's a good Sunday? I know we kind of had the holiday weekend over here. But

I'm happy to see everybody ready to go for a show today. But if you'd like to share with audience kind of who you are and what you do. I'm sure some people have seen you on other shows, but we'd love to introduce you to our audience here. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, my pleasure. Oh hold on, I think I'm having a sound issue on my end. Hold on a second. Ah, there we go, all

right, figured it out. So yeah, my background is Muslim. I grew up in the Middle East, in the Gulf region, in Dubai specifically, and I spent the first sixteen seventeen years of my life being a very adamant, practicing believer. And when I moved to Canada for university when I was seventeen, I basically went through this whole big existential crisis, which I guess is common to a lot of teenagers, of what am I doing with my life? What is my purpose? Why am I even going to school?

Why did I make this big move halfway across the world. And it kind of sent me on this process of questioning everything about my life, like what do I want to do with my life? And what are the foundations of my life. And I think a combination of that crisis and just being in this new environment where I was no longer in the Muslim world, no longer surrounded by Muslims, and meeting new people, different kinds of people,

people of different faiths. It sent me questioning the things that I'd never questioned before in my life, and that was Islam. And I just realized I didn't have good reasons to believe, and I just been believing because that's what everyone around me was telling me was the truth. And so I became an atheist pretty much then and there when I was around seventeen eighteen and didn't really think about religion or faith that much anymore. It just wasn't part of my

life. And what eventually happened was I realized that there were a lot of people who were really suffering in silence because they had left a religion. I was fortunate enough where my family accepted that I had left my immediate family anyway, a lot of my extended family doesn't know till this day, and they

definitely don't know that I'm doing this kind of stuff online. And I just realized that I had this responsibility to amplify the voices of former Muslims ex Muslims because the punishment for leaving Islam, besides you know, burning in hell, which is what a lot of Muslims believe, is punishment of death, which isn't enforced that much, thankfully, especially not in the West, but it does happen to a lot of people. A lot of x Muslims are disowned

by their family, they lose their jobs, they're jailed. And I figured, I'm here in Canada and I don't have to say risks that a lot of Muslims do. I don't have to worry about my family finding out. And here's the other important thing. I noticed that a lot of people who criticize Islam, like let's talk about the new atheists, They're dismissed. The criticisms of Slam are dismissed because Muslims will say, well, they didn't grow

up with the religion, they're Westerners. And I felt like, as an Arab, as someone who lived the religion, that I think my criticisms hold

more weight, especially within the Muslim community. And that's what led me to starting this channel, Secular Spirit. And I call it Secular Spirit because I want to explore faith in general, not just the Slam, but the reasons why we need faith, the things that we get from faith, what the problems are with organized religion, and what we can do to replace the things

that religion give us without needing to rely on blind faith. That's awesome, and I love that we have people like you bringing this kind of perspective to many of us in the West who haven't had a lot of exposure to Islam.

And I know we have a very christian centric focus because of our upbringing, but understanding that humans all have similar fallacies, that we're prone to similar biases, even across culture, and so I really appreciate what you're doing in this space and I'm excited to hear what you bring to the conversations today. Thank you. So Talk Heathen is a product of the Atheist Community of Austin, five oh one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism,

critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation of religion and government. This is a live call in show, so get in. Get your calls in now so we get plenty of time to talk with you about your religious experiences, your experiences with faith, healing, any fun stories, you want to share from growing up in Islam or in Christianity, we'd love to hear from you. We also love to address any particular points of contention that we might

have across different beliefs. So get your calls in at five one two nine nine to one nine two four two. You can go to your browser type in tiny dot cc slash call THH and we'd love to hear from you. But first we have a fun segment, talk Heathen to me, and we are going to go through the comments that we received from last week's question. And our question last time was when you go to Hell, who is the

first person you want to talk to? And our answer in third place is from Cocob The first person I talked to in Hell frigidare HVAC installation specialist. And in second place we have Miranda Renzberger says the first person I want to talk to in Hell is mother Teresa, because if Christianity was real, she's definitely there and I have some things to say to her about what it means to care for the sick, and that is a burn that is a really

good, good choice too. And in first place we have from x million, they say in hell, I'd want to talk to my alter ego. God, damn it, Tim, I warned you about staying away from absent all really good responses. So if you want your name and response to be featured on next week's show, we're going to give you another question, which is what would Jesus tweet? So answer your question below in the comment section, and we'll pick our top three responses and read them live on next week's

show. But, Secular Spirit, what is your answer to this? What do you think Jesus would tweet? Oh? I was thinking about a good one for this, but I first, we just wanted to say I think the fitting punishment for the HVAC repair man is to be given a six hour time window when the customer is going to be there for the repair, but they never show up for eternity. That's serious. So yeah, I was thinking of a few things and I can't up with this. So this is

Jesus's tweet. The most important question about Jesus, of course, is when is he coming back? We've been waiting and waiting for thousands of years now, So Jesus wanted to address this by saying by posting Messiah return updates running a bit late, but don't worry. I've got eternity on my side. Hashtag second coming soon ish, I love it, I love it, you know, And he would do something like that. He would definitely oh he's a tease. Yeah, yeah, he would bait that over and over again.

But if anybody else has answers to this, what would Jesus tweet? Answer in the comments section and watch next week to see if yours was chosen. And we can't do the show without some very very important people behind the scenes. So let's go to the crew cam. We have our audio crew, our video crew, people that do the stamps for the recordings, and the call screeners. We have so many people behind the scenes doing a lot of work that goes into this type of show, and we're incredibly grateful to

these lovely, lovely people. So what do you think about taking a call? Let's do it all right, So we're going to take Van. He him from California. Van, it sounds like you want to talk about philosophy. Can you summarize your argument or requestion? Sure? I just in conversations with THEUS I've had I and just let you know I'm naxa apeists and I come across this argument a lot from theist about the ontological existence of God.

We're using ontological arguments like anthelm, writing, stay cards, writing, things like that, And so I wanted to get your thoughts on how you would approach responding or rebutting to these arguments. I brought up, you know, shit begging and things like that. But I just want to hear what you guys have to say. Yeah, do you have any specific argument, like, I mean, other than we we know, Uh, these people have

a very specific like way of phrasing the argument. But have have you had in your encounters, like, had a specific argument that was brought to you. Yeah, one that I had recently a person said that basically, the mind is perfect and set see if I can see if I can remember it. It was a bit it was a bit esoteric. The mind is perfect, therefore anything that the mind can conceive of then is conceivably perfect. Therefore God exists because God is perfect. I think, Yeah, that's a garbage

argument. Yeah it is, it is and so and so this is what I said. I just said, Okay, so what if what if somebody just objects to your basic premise? Uh, you know, and it's question, begging what if? What if? What if? That's the basic objection, and he said, well, that's silly, and so I just kind of rubbed my temples, you know a little bit, but you know, and so at this point I just like, okay, whatever, But again, I wanted to hear kind of some of your thoughts on that. And

I've heard other things. You know. A person came on I talked with, talked about an sol arguments and films arguments, and when I kind of tried to approach it from a pistemological sense, they were like, well, that's not the same thing because you can't approach the concept of God from a pistemological sense because you're relying on purical evidence. You can't rely on purical evidence.

I'm like, okay, well then if that's you can't rely on purical evidence, then what else can you compare it to, you know, So you know, and I tried different ways, like leprechauns unicorns, and it was always not the same thing, not the same thing. So so again I wanted to hear your thoughts. I mean, psychlo spirit, do you want to go for what? Sure? Well, thank you for the question.

By the way, Van and I see why you want to ask it, because for me personally, this is the hardest argument I've dealt with when talking to theists, and the reason why is because a lot of it is just kind of, you know, mind mental gymnastics, like really abstract thinking. And what I found to be an effective communication method to talk to feists about this is that when you think about arguments like this, you don't actually

know anything about what this god entity is. And I don't know why you would even want to call it god, like this god has no characteristics, no traits. You could substitute in the word the universe for example, and you couldn't really argue with them. So if you're, say, talking to a Christian, the question I would ask is, how can you connect Let's say, let's say this is true, this ontological experiment is true thought experiment.

How can you connect this god to the God of Christianity. If you're talking to a Muslim the God of Islam, clearly you still need to do a lot of work work, and the best someone like for example, William Lane Craig will do is well, this is what we mean by God when we think about the greatest possible thing and then he sneaks in all these specific

traits and characterists about him in separate arguments. M I see. So in other words, are you saying something to the effect of, Okay, well, this this this perfect being that you're that you're talking about onto Logically, yeah, what other characteristics does this being have? Could it conceivably be be evil? And how do you know that these characterists characteristics exist? Precisely? Like, there's no reason to think that this this being cares about us.

What could be completely indifferent, let alone being evil? Could be could be neutral, not loving, or evil. We just don't know. Okay, yeah, I see, yeah, yeah, yeah, I thought about that. You know how you run through a conversation later in your head, you know, oh I should have said that, I should have said that, And I kind of had that thought as well. Oh no, definitely.

I think when it comes to a lot of feists, especially the ones that have looked into the apologetics, they're coming in from a position where they already believe whatever faith they're professing, and there might be like this element of insecurity

about like, well, how do I know it's true? And then they find things like this to support their argument, And again, what I would say to a Christian, let's say a Muslim can use the same exact argument for their God, and someone could just invent a religion and use the same argument. Well, this is what I mean by God, this perfect being that we can't conceive of something being greater than it. So how do we

know which God is real? How do we connect this entity to a God that tells you that there's certain things you can't eat on Sundays or Fridays or whatever, or well, according to Muslims, you can't eat pork. There's like a big missing gap between the ontological argument God and God that people actually believe in. Yeah, And what I've found also is that the leap usually goes to well, you know, the it goes to the something or nothing

from something argument or the something from nothing argument. He usually goes to that. And again that's yeah, like you were saying, it's kind of a leap. Yeah, it's a leap, and so it normally just shifts the goalposts kind of shift, and then it's just a you know, so I'm yeah, so I think that's what I am. Like you said, it's a pretty hard argument to really, it's really like there, it's like a grief pig. You know, they're just really it's a really slippery argument,

and it's really really hard to kind of nail him down on something. And that's you know, that's really what I'm trying to do. Oh oh, Ben, we can't hear you. Thanks pull the Johnny today. But with regard to your initial argument, well not your argument, but the argument that you were responding to with the mind being perfect, I flat out reject that premise, and I'm sure you do as well, and it would be pretty easy to, yeah, kind of help them understand that. Like, there

are definitely times that the mind can conceive something that is flawed. And we see this on a day to day basis. I mean every time that you lose your keys when you think for sure you place them in the same place that you always do, but then you find them on the counter instead of you know, in your bag, and you were sure that that you had left him in the right place, but your brain was not perfect. Your

mind was not perfect in remembering what it did. And there are plenty of things that we theoretically come up with and we'll do thought experiments about, but they don't actually translate to reality and that's why bench research is so important and why you can't just get theoretical degrees only, and we don't just base medical treatments on theory. We have to have live demonstration of these things, and

even how we need in vivo data and not just in vitro data. You can conceptualize whatever you want, but that doesn't mean that reality is going to reciprocate in like going along with the theory. And so it's definitely, it's just it's just a flawed premise to begin with. And I'm sure all of us are on the same page with that piece. Oh yeah, definitely. I think when we think of words like perfection, it's ultimately subjective, like tied to the whole concept of you know, beauties in the eye of the

beholder. Yeah, and that's not to say that yeah, go for it.

Oh I'm sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt. I was just going to say, what no, go for it on is just how slippery it all it all gets with as far as you know, it's basically different things like well, that's not the same thing like if I brought up I brought up things like you know, uh, you know, well, we can't apply real word situations to God, you know, because God is immaterial and things like that, and you're talking about material it's just it just gets really,

you know, bogged down, and it just gets super super slippery. Yeah, and God influences material things, then he should be able, we should be able to materially demonstrate because if they're going to make the claim that it's purely immaterial, then what's the point in even doing anything with him? Because if he's not going to influence the material world, then fine, then we're in like a we're in a completely different realm of like an impersonal like deism

situation. But even the deist God like was at least a creator, at least in most of the deistic theology that I'm familiar with, that at least the deist God has intervened with our material reality in some way. And so even that's not really immune to this thing. So I think we're all on the same page here. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Oh yeah, without a doubt, without a doubt. But yeah, I sick in. I just wanted to hear kind of how you would approach this, you know,

just to see where you land on it. And I kind of feel like I'm in the same at least in the same ballpark as you, so

for sure. Like the one thing I would say, Van, is I find that the best approach is to not tell or dictate things to FeAs you're having these kinds of discussions, but to just ask them questions almost And I'm for me personally, it's a curiosity to see how they justify it for themselves, whatever their belief happens to be. And I think when you ask questions that really get to the things that you think don't make sense, it gets them thinking about it too, even if they might deny it on the spot,

but it could get them thinking later on or the next day. The ways you said you sometimes think about things you should have said. Yeah, I totally agree. I think one of the biggest things I read was avoid facts, you know, just keep asking questions. Yeah, that makes sense. I totally agree with that. All Right, anything else we can help you with today, Van, Guys, thank you so much. Yeah,

thanks for calling in. I hope you have question. I have a good rest to your Sonday, and I hope I hope to hear some updates on how these conversations go. Yeah, yeah, please let us know. Oh yeah, for sure. Okay, yeah, come on, I'll come back in and let you guys know. Thanks again, have a good day, all right, All right, that was a great, a great starting call for us. But I have a very exciting announcement that I want to tell

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Are you ready for another call? Let's do it. I'm ready, alrighty, I think I've talked to this person before. Let's talk with Annie from Canada. Annie, it sounds like, do you want to talk about what caused the universe? Can you tell us the summary of your question? Actually I wanted to Oh, well, first of all, nice to speak to with you again. What I wanted to talk about was a little bit of

what you spoke about with the first caller. And what was said was that Kristens can't close the gap between the first car and their God, which is true that like ontological and ontological arguments don't do that, but you still need to concede that the universe was caused if the argument, the cosmological argument, specifically, it sound or disprove it, and atheism resistant to doing that for some reason. So Annie, I just want to jump in and say that

I do not claim that the universe was not caused. I don't really know any people who make that claim. I'm sure there's possibly some out there, but I do not claim that the universe was not caused. I just do not accept that there was a supernatural cause to the universe. So, and I don't necessarily know what this natural cause would be. I'm not a physicist, and there's a lot more that I need to learn about this. But that's not me saying that there is no cause. It's just I would much

more easily accept a natural cause as opposed to a supernatural cause. Does that make sense? What you're saying makes sense. I understand your argument. Am I allowed to respond to that? Yeah? Absolutely well. To say to ask for an natural cause of the universe, what does that mean? Because the universe is everything that is natural, So to ask for a natural cause to everything that is natural is to ask for the universe to bring itself into

existence, or at least no, not necessarily. Not necessarily. Okay, I'm a little bit curious starting the question around to you, what makes you say that the universe had to have been caused by a supernatural cause? How did you get there? Well, I just explained it's impossible. For since the universe is all of that is natural, everything in everything that we know and can ever know, then to suggest that something or equality of the universe

is the cause of the universe is just a logical impossibility. It's not a real idea. It makes sense in English as a sentence, but logically it doesn't make any sense. It's like a spirit. It looks like you wanted to jump in a second ago. Uh sure, yeah, Hi, Hi Annie. I'm also in Canada. By the way, I'm in Toronto. Thanks thanks for calling and asking this question. It's a really good one.

And what I always think about is when it comes to these big kinds of questions, I just adopt the approach of, well, I don't really know. There might be a lot of things that are beyond our knowledge currently. We might figure them out eventually, and you could be right. Maybe there isn't anything within our observable universe that created the universe, but we don't really

know. We can't rule out there being something beyond our observable experience. There might be something that is natural, but we don't understand that it's natural. And where I get stuck is so you said that it's impossible logically for the universe to create itself. I don't know what a supernatural cause could be, what domain it exists, and if we could even say that it exists in

a domain, So it almost seems an abstract, meaningless thing. That would also be impossible to say that there's something outside of nature, and I don't know how to bridge that gap. Well, I guess it's just something you understand or you don't understand, because you can't bring something. For something to do anything, it has to already exist, so something can't bring it. That's not the case. That's not the case though. That's not the case

though, because we know things emerge from combinations of other things. This is the case with a lot of even different elements, different minerals, many different natural things did not originally start out that way. They started from something that was not those things, And so I think that's a problematic argument to make that something would have already had to exist. It's just like when we get

arguments about consciousness. I don't believe that consciousness was something that already existed. It was an emergent property of having chemical and physical activity within a brain. And no, we can't necessarily explain the minutia of how all of that happens. We're working towards further understanding, but I don't accept that premise that something had to have already existed in order to make something different or make something else.

Well, the difference between the universe and objects or elements of the universe. Let me start again. It is not accurate to compare the create what the first cause of the universe, to thing that think, to element, to atoms of I'm so sorry, just giving you a second, take your time, please, thank you. I just don't It's yes, there are elements and chemicals that come from elements and chemicals, but those things are all

part of the universe. We're talking about what created everything, what was the cause of everything, not what was a cause of Yeah, and I think this is this is where we have a difference. The fact that you seem to need to have a concrete answer to this question, and I don't.

I don't have an exact answer for what caused the beginning of the universe, And I'm willing to admit that I don't understand how you get to this needs to like this needs to be something supernatural, and that you have an answer for this question when I'm not convinced that there's one answer to this question.

There's so many unknown variables here, and it sounds like you want an answer and are more interested in having an answer than kind of looking more into it and wondering what we could be missing with trying to find an answer to this. Well, I'm not sure about that. I don't think that's what my intentions are. To go back to what I was saying before, we understand that things nothing comes from nothing, everything comes from something. That is,

how did you get to that? How did you get to that claim? If you're saying, especially if you're saying that we understand this, how did you come to that understanding? How did I come to the understanding of what you please act like, yeah, the understanding that something has to come from something and that nothing could come from like something can't come from nothing? How did you how did you get to that understanding? It's nothing, it's it's

a foundational truth. Nothing. How do you know that? How do you know that it's a foundational truth? Are you pulling a common sense argument? Is that what you're saying, No, I'm saying that. It's like A is equal to a. There is no A is not A is equal to a. So something is equal to something and nothing is equal to nothing. For nothing comes from nothing. There is no. That's not no, that's

not it. That's not You're making two different arguments here. So something coming into existence is not the same thing as an argument of A equals A. Like you're using an identity argument and then trying to talk about things coming from other things. So something coming from something else is a process, and so

that's different distickly from an equation that is an identity. And so I think what's happening here You're trying to like, like, what you're essentially communicating to me right now is that you have this understanding that you believe is fundamental understanding to just how the universe works and how the world works. But the problem is we disagree on it, and so we can't go back and say that this is a fundamental thing that we all understand, because we don't agree on

it. So I need to know why are we in disagreement? How did you get to this and we didn't because just saying this is just something that we all know, isn't that? That's not going to convince me that you're correct here. Okay, so you said that nothing is an identity? What is that? That is nothing? So nothing is an identity. Nothing is equal to nothing. I don't under like how how you get something from nothing? When nothing is nothing, it does nothing, it's nothing. So I

don't know how much math background do you have. But if we were to make an equation, yeah, it's very easy to say nothing equals nothing because we've assigned terms to either side of the equation. But understand that when we add bigger equations, or when we're trying to make proofs that something can lead

to something else, you have other variables there. And so when we manipulate those variables through addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, et cetera, adding other variables, adding powers of two, powers of three, et cetera, when we manipulate that we are no longer in a equals a, we have a situation where A could equal X plus y to the fourth like. Oversimplifying that process to an identity equation is not proving necessarily what you're suggesting it does.

And so I get that this is an analogy and not meant to be kind of taking one for one like as a like an equivocal situation. But it's not as effective as of an analogy because we're not dealing with single variable equations. We're dealing with a lot of variables, and things can transform as you do proofs, as you add more variables, and and so we're missing

the dynamics of this question. You have a very static analogy trying to be used to communicate a dynamic reality, and so I think that's where we're kind of missing this. But I need to know how you're how you're getting to this point, secular spirit, Do you want to weigh in it all? No? No, I just want to give this space for antitudors. Respond Yeah, well, how how how do you know? There are a lot of variables? And can you tell me what those variables are? I can't.

And that's the thing. We know some variables, we don't know all of them, and I don't know if we can know all of them. And so that's why it's difficult for me to say we have an answer on what caused the universe, because there's so many more variables that we can even account for. And that's what you get into with astrophysics and with these experts who know a lot more than I do. They've been working their entire lives to account for these variables, and they find more variables. And it's the

same thing with any subject matter. It's the same thing with human biology that I've been studying for a long time. There's always more variables that come up, and we do the best that we can with applying what we know currently because some variables we don't really need to We don't really need to know to help somebody, you know, get over their pneumonia. I know enough variables

to address that. But with something so complex and so far removed as the origin of the universe, we don't have enough knowledge to really make any claim about it other than we need to learn more, and I'm not convinced that there is a specific answer right now that we can point to. Well, then how is it wonerful to talk about anything if we must assume there are

an infinite number of unknown variables to every question. Well, and that's what we have to That's kind of the nuance of it is what do we what's the utility of what we're arguing, and how are we using that information? And in this case, I would say, for the most part, arguing the origins of the universe really is not super useful. In general. It's

not getting us a whole lot of places to have those discussions. However, it does matter when people are claiming that they're the origin of the universe is a supernatural being that influences your day to day life and tells you who you can marry, where you can live, how you live your life, and that does matter. So that's why we have these conversations. And that's why I take up these arguments, because people are using their answer to make other

claims. But otherwise, if we didn't have that issue, I wouldn't need to debate this at all. Okay, So in your view, it's not useful to debate the origins of the universe. It's only a problem that people have an opinion on the origins of the universe. That is my perspective. There are other people who study the origins of the universe that might say that there are scientific applications to helping our planet with fuel sources, et cetera.

They have probably some other reasons why they would argue this. This is purely my perspective. I personally do not think it's very useful in the things that I'm needing to discuss, and it just sounds very I don't understand then, why you invite debate if you're not. Oh, no, we do. And that's what's I just mentioned. Are we value this kind of debate because you are using this to justify the existence of a supernatural being who then makes

decisions about my life. And unfortunately, there are a lot of people being hurt by this rhetoric. And that's that is the reason why we're arguing this secular spirit. Do you want to well, I just wanted to add this other point. The risk that comes with the claims from some believers that their God created the universe, was the origin, the first cause of the universe is if we feel like we already have the answer, well it was God, then it could stop us from delving into if you want to call it,

the mysteries of the universe. Learning more about the universe around us. It's underpinnings how it works, and it could actually stop us from searching figuring out potentially the actual answer to this question instead of the one that feasts just give us without much evidence. So it does have that potential cost too. It's hard to quantify what it is, but it is a risk. Okay, okay, So so I guess the question for you. Can I actually ask a question? Yeah, yeah, Annie, I just wanted to ask

you a question. Is it important for you to know that there was a first cause of God who created the universe, as opposed to just not accepting that maybe we don't know the answer. Is it important to you that you have an answer to that question? It's not a matter of important, it's a matter it's the fact that the question exists and there is an answer. It doesn't matter if the question is important or not. The question can be asked. It's always, It's been asked for all of history. I've asked

it and there is an answer. So yeah, okay, there is no answer or there's no point in I'm searching for the answer. No, no, no, not at all. I just don't we just don't know.

We were just saying we don't know. Yeah, well I want the answer to that question too, And you're right there there has to be some answer that we I just feel like we don't have access to it yet and we might never have access to it. Okay, But once again, if we the possibility that mainly never have access access to the answerer, than the discussion, as doctor Ben put it, is pointless. Well, no, it's not like the possibility of never having an answer isn't a reason to just give

up and not look for answers. Agreed. It's it's like we may never fully understand, like like from medicine, we may not fully understand every single condition that can happen to the human body. But that doesn't mean that we should just quit now and let people die like that. That's that's not what

we should be doing it. And so I think I think we're I think this discussion maybe we need to continue next time you call in, just because there's a lot of the depth here, and I think we've covered some ground. We're saying, please, please, just one. We're saying, yeah, go for it, go for it, Thank you so much. I

think what I was trying to say when I asked my previous question. Actually, when I made my previous statement that the discussion is pointless, is that now I, as a cis feel calling into this show is pointless because when whenever you meet an objection that you can't refute, you just say, well, maybe there are unknown variables, Like what's the point of me calling in? If you're just going to escape through the Rules'll say, that's you,

and that's that's my question. Like how how are you so confident that there is an answer and that the answer is your answer? How did you, like, I guess, let me ask that what how confident? On a scale of zero percent to one hundred percent, how confident are you that your answer is correct? I am confident there is an answer regardless of whether or not my answer is correct, and we can have a discussion to find the

answer, and which requires us having faith that there is an answer. But if we always say there are unknown variables, that we may never know the answer, then there can never be a discussion. There's no point in. It's not true. That's not true. Though that's not that's not true. Well, yeah, I disagree with that for the reasons I already mentioned that not having an ultimate end answer or does not mean that the entire discussion is

pointless. And I think it is problematic to jump to a conclusion that might not be correct. If you're saying that whether or not your answer is correct. I think it's okay to think that there is an answer, and we agree with you that there has to be an answer. We will concede that there is an answer. We just don't agree that your answer is correct, and so that's where our disagreement is. And so we're trying to get at what made you confident that your answer is the correct one. That's what we're

asking. I assume, okay, I'm answering because I assume that there are no unknown variables that I have to consider. How do you know that that assumption is correct? I don't. That's where you and I differ. I am a CS so I believe in God. That means I believe in truth. You're an atheist. You don't believe in God. Therefore you don't believe in truth. So if you don't believe in God, you don't believe in truth. So I want to know how you got to that point. How

did you get to the point that that God is truth? It's because the creator of the universe would be the source of everything that we know. Therefore it would be true. Okay, So what I'm hearing is that would be the case if your assumption is correct. So you're automatically assuming that you're correct and then making your decisions based on the assumption that you're correct. Right, It's doesn't that sound? Doesn't that sound to you a bit overly confident in

your answer? Well, I guess that's what what do you Is there any margin of error for you at all? Yes? Like, I can be wrong about a whole bunch of things. But I know I can be wrong because I know that I can also be true. I can also be right. You don't know if you can be right or wrong. But if you just assume that you're right, Like if I if I say, let's say, going back to math, if two plus two equals four. But I say, you know what, I'm just going to assume that two plus two

equal seven, And if you don't believe that, then you're wrong. Would I be reasonable to And then if I made every decision in math based on that assumption, does that mean that I'm correct just because I've asserted that of course not, but we know that, so I would have to justify how I got there. You can't justify how you got there just by saying I know that this is true because it is, and that I know I can

be wrong about other things because I know I could be true. But the thing that you're you have that is true is something that you just asserted was true. I'm not yet convinced that you've demonstrated that your truth is true. You and I both know that two plus two equals four, So I'm so that's why you can you're wrongly comparing my argument to two plus two equal seven. You haven't shown that my argument is like two plus two equal seven,

And you haven't shown and you haven't shown that your God is true. Ben if I could make a point too, So Annie, if I could just make this one point the challenge I see where you're coming from in terms of believing that you know you believe in God and this God is the truth. The challenge for me is how do I know your specific God is the truth and not some other feist's version of God version of truth? Like I grew up Muslim, and there's a lot of key ways where the Islam's God and

Christianity's God are not compatible. There's direct contradictions with some parts of the beliefs that Muslims and Christians have. So who has access to the truth here? So you don't need to believe my God is true. You just need to believe that God is truth. The creator of the universe, the force of everything that we can know, would be truth. Like my God has nothing to do with it. The creator of the universe would have to be truth itself, I think, and with that the truth. Yeah, I think

we need to move on. But for the next time that you call, I want us to pick up from how we got to the assumption that God is truth, because we're not convinced and it's not something that we're going to assume is correct. You have to demonstrate to us why that point is correct. And so I think we'll move on for today. But please call in again with that argument and we'll go from there. Okay, thank you so much, Thanks so much calling in. Thank you for calling it nanny.

But yeah, but yeah, Ben, you could see why I asked that question, because when when we have theists talking about having access to the truth when it's abstract like that I actually don't really mind it. It's kind of harmless. But to your point about how these kinds of things actually harm people, it's when you have someone I'm not saying this about Annie to clarify, but let's say a feist believes that LGBTQ people are exactly against the order of

nature and that is part of the truth of God. Then that's where the risk is because you might encounter another feist who doesn't feel that way. So how do we know which theist has access to this actual truth? We don't. Yeah, yeah, and that is why we have these discussions. And some of the topics seem frivolous, but that is that is what we get to these arguments, and it's super important to make sure that we're addressing these

appropriately. And with that, we have the time of the show where we talk about our patrons, and if you want to get your name on this list, you can go to our Patreon and sign up. And this list changes every week. So our top five patrons of the week we have Dingleberry, Jackson, Oops, All, Singularity, de voor Valginkleevi, Helvetti Left in the Leaves, and our honorable mention is Cat so congratulations to our top five of the week. And we have a couple of super chats that I

want to read as well. We have one from Nash five Canadian says, Annie was such a good caller. These are very good ideas and questions to be asked. Was such a good conversation, Ben in secular Spirit, good show so far. Thank you so much for your supports and your super chat. And then we have Miranda Renzberger, who's been a member for two months, says, I guess five dollars and says making up an answer is not the same thing as finding the answer. Absolutely, any thoughts about that.

Well, also, just feeling or having faith that you have the answer is not the same as it being the actual answer. You need to find a way in which to determine it to be true with some sort of evidence, And for me, faith is not enough. Yeah. Absolutely. For the next call, let's take Michelle she her from California, sounds like you want to talk about near death experiences. Tell us your story. Hey, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. Yeah, what's your experience.

I'm excited to hear about it. So this was in the late nineteen seventies.

When I was a teenager, I had a pretty serious UH event and had a couple of surgeries, and during one of the surgeries, had an adverse outcome had a near death death experience, which I didn't know about at the time, of course, but I did have kind of a weird experience while I was in surgery and had this weird kind of dream like state while I was under an esthegia, and later on found out that I had a near death experience, and I thought, oh, okay, that's what that

was. Now. I was raised specular, which was unusual in the seventies, but the experience was not religious at all. I was black and white, kind of like Keystone cops, like, you know, a train was coming on the tracks and I was trying to get a car off the tracks, and then I woke up in the recovery room. It had I didn't

know about NDEs back then. It wasn't until I was, you know, went through medical school, went through residency and all of that, and then I learned, you know, okay, these are a thing, and your brain probably makes these up later and then religious started being off the all this. So I just wanted to like let people know that not all of these

are religious. Not all of these are people that you know, drop to their knees and you know, except Allah or Jesus or whoever Vishnu, some of us have them and you know, go on about our lives, and honestly, I rarely ever thought about it really until I started watching a lot of atheist contents on YouTube, to be honest. So I just kind of wanted to push back on some of the religious people saying that you know, near that experiences prove God. Yeah, that's that's amazing. Do you say

your residency, what what specialty? I started off in family medicine and then I switched to psychiatry. Oh amazing. I'm actually working on switching from family medicine to internal medicine. So I'll be joining this switch rough club. Yeah. I'm obviously probably going to retire in maybe another five six years. Yeah, I'm at the end of my career. You're at the beginning. Yeah. Well, that's amazing though, that we have some secular psychiatrists out there

that are doing some amazing work. And of course I don't know you personally, but I know in a field that can be very heavily influenced by religion. Happy to hear that there's some secular folk doing some good work. We're pretty we're actually pretty secular as a whole psychiatrist and neurologist to be pretty secular. But yeah, this was minor death experience as a teenager. This is back in the seventies. Yeah, and NDEs, you know, people have

been experiencing these for a long time. People didn't, you know, tend to popularize this quite a lot back then. Nobody made a big deal out of it or a big fuss, And it wasn't really until maybe the eighties or nineties that I started hearing about it, and that's when I started thinking about it. But oh yeah, I had I had that experience. Mine was not religious. It was you know, like I said, it was

like a like an old black and white movie. And honestly, I never really thought about it until religious people kind of co opted it, and then I started thinking about it a little bit more and I thought, you know

that I'll call and tell you about it. Yeah, that's awesome. Do you have any tips, I guess for people engaging with these kinds of arguments, Any any particular things that you've said to people that it maybe brought this up to you about indic Yeah, have you had any discussions with people who believe that they are supernatural experiences? And if so, are there any discussion, like any any kind of methods of discussion that you've used in talking with

them. So, if it's a patient, I I don't ever uh push back on patience and what they believe. If it's like in a s setting or you know, family or friends, it depends. And if I am going to push back on a family member or a friend, I tend to use Socratic approaches with folks. Well, why do you believe that? And what methods do you use to determine the you know, how you know what the truth claim? You know, how is that? How do you know that that's true? You know, how would you test that? Things like

that? And if they, you know, get kind of squirrely about it, then then I drop it. I don't I don't tend to push it too much. I you know, I I don't know of anyone else that's had an actual INDE. So I haven't really had a lot of experience with that as far as I know, I'm the only person in my my little circle that has had an actual NDE. They're they're not really all that, you know, and people would have you believe it, like half the population

has had these and it's really not. But people have all kinds of other, you know, supposed supernatural experiences, but these are just feeling, you know, we all get to stealing, and I just tend to ask people, you know, well, how do you know that that's God? I mean, how would you you know? Why do you believe that? It's a really great question. I think that's the key one to ask. Ye. I always wonder how much how much stock fists have in those kinds of

near death experiences. I know in the US there was that really massively popular book I think it was called Heaven It's for Real, where it was just sharing the story of like a child who had gone through a near death experience,

and I hear it get mentioned quite often. So I do wonder how much do people, when they're thinking about their own faith, do they feel like, well, there's all these near deaf experiences, people seeing the white light and all that, and how much of it is just like a secondary thing where they just leave anyway and then this is just something that comforts them that they're already right, Yeah, exactly, yeah, for sure. All right with that, I think we're gonna move on to some other calls.

I appreciate you bringing your story and really amazing that you're able to have some of these discussions with people. Thanks for calling in, Michelle, and good luck to you both and take care. Thanks, have a good rest to your Sunday. All right, we have another caller uh in the queue. We're going to talk to Jeffrey. He him from Pennsylvania, wanting to follow up on previous argument advocating for theism, wanting to discuss God's truth. Jeffrey,

can you summarize your argument for us? Sure? Ken, How you doing? Doctor Ben? And hey, Secular Spirit, It's good to talk to you guys. Hey Jeffrey and hear me. Yep, we can hear you. What's your what's your argument today? Okay? Yeah, I think uh shout out to Annie, sat out to Michelle as well. I disagree with Michelle with regard to to ndees. But Annie spoke about how God is

true. And I can't really speak for because she didn't say it specifically, but I would imagine she may have taken her cue as to why why she knew that God is truth, because this is exactly the message that Jesus brought us. I love, I love being hurt. Yeah, we're just listening to your argument. Okay, great, I was hearing a bunch of beeping in my well. Okay, well, Jeffrey, I just wanted to also mention. Uh, Jeffrey, I just wanted to mention I don't think Annie

clarified that she was a Christian. Man. You could correct me if I mistaken. I don't because you mentioned Christianity or Jesus once when she was talking about gods. So maybe she is Christian, Maybe she isn't. I'm not sure. But I just wanted to make that point because of the point I was making earlier that who has access to this truth of God? Which which religion, which faith to meet? It's unclear. We all we all have access to it. So why do different people disagree about which God is correct?

Then? I think it's because we believe different information. How different religions? Yes, how do you know your information is correct? Well? This is the Uh, this is actually the burden of I guess every man and woman born on the planet, they got to figure out they got to figure out given their their life, Uh, in their life, what is truth? You know? The thing that what the was it? Pilot, I

believe asked Jesus what is truth? This is a this is a question we all ultimately have to answer because there's so many lives out here that And I think what's happening is because we live in what is really a dark world, and Jesus is the light of the world. We're in in darkness, and so there's a lot of lies that we're born into, you know, and

we and we see that all around us. And I think people are inundated with lies around them, and so now they have no confidence in the truth even in this in this pokemon, I heard the term post truth world being guanteed about these days. You know, people don't even believe there is truth anymore. You see, that's how dark this world is. So when Jesus comes in and says I am the light of the world, we should listen to his words so that we can be enlightened and move out of this darkness

that we're all in. And for you, Jeffrey, how do you know that it is Jesus that is the truth? Like, how did you determine for yourself. I understand what you're saying about how everyone has to go through this journey and figure that out for you personally. How did you figure out for you that this is the truth one hundred percent, no doubt. Good question. So I heard or I read, you know, I was made aware of Jesus's words, and when I got an understanding of what he was

saying, I obeyed, you know, his commandments. And when I began to obey his commandment, I found confirmation of the truth that he was in fact the truth that was my own personal journey. What was that confirmation? Like, what does it look like? There is in the confirmation? There is mutual joy, excuse me, mutual love between people that I interact with.

There is understand increased understanding of the things that are going on around me, things that perhaps before hearing or getting that understanding, I was perplexed by. And I just felt like again like I was in that darkness that I was, you know. But as as as the Spirit of God began to minister to my mind and began to reveal the truth, you know, it gives you peace, It gives you a certain confidence, and people take that

confidence as being arrogant. Well, I can't really be apologetic before my confidence. I mean, it's just something that I'm experiencing. People can call a confirmation bias, and that's usually what happens. But I guess we all have confirmation bias. But after we do we do that. So, Jeffrey, sorry, sorry if I interrupts, I just have a question for you, just about the inner peace you felt, like the in yourself when you when you accepted Jesus. The thing that I find is, so my background is

Muslim. I used to be Muslim, and I remember when I was a practicing Muslim that I had those feelings too, like I had the feeling of inner peace and you know certainty that this is the truth. But for Muslims, they don't believe that Jesus is the son of God. For example. They believe that he was a very important prophet of God, but they don't have that same belief about him being the son of God and part of the

Trinity for example. So my question, my question to you is I had that inner I had that inner peace, that certainty, but I didn't have belief the same beliefs about Jesus that you do. So can you See why I bring that up because there might be more than one pathway to attaining confirmation of one's faith beyond just your belief in Jesus. I think to the extent that Islam, it's on any type of truths. And if you encountered those truths, why you were in Islam, and you embrace those truths, I

think that's the source of your peace. See, the peace that I'm talking about can only come from truth, can only come It's exclusive, it's holy, it's set apart, but it exists, and a lot of things that people realize don't realize that it does exist in you know, don't get me wrong, but you have to investigate things. And when you encounter truth, one of the things that it does do is it does bring truth. I

mean peace. Excuse me, but you see my point, Jeffrey, when it comes to me, Let's say, when I was a Muslim, I did not accept Jesus as my savior. I didn't accept the Christian version of Jesus as the truth. So in that sense, I was in a set. I was rejecting the truth of Jesus, wasn't I? And for a Muslim who will look at a Christian saying that Jesus is the son of God. A Muslim would see that as blasphemy, and so in that sense going

against the truth. And so the thing I get stuck on on is I totally respect your believe that it's really important that you get those things like inner peace from your certainty about Jesus. But how do we know it's it's actually the truth when there's so many people with varying claims about this truth. Okay, well, I think that one of the things in my faith tradition of popular saying is well, not a saying, it's a scripture. I'll just forget where it's at. It says, oh, taste and see that the

Lord is good. Though there is an experience in the tasting, you know, that's just using a word. They're tasting. In other words, when we interact, because we're interacting, we're interacting, we believe with an actual mind, a person who we hold as the creator of all things. So we can interact with this, with this person, and when we experience the goodness. And I should have mentioned that as the other confirmation, not only the peace, but the goodness that I that I not only felt, but

you know, walked in and existing. You know, whenever I experienced goodness in my life, these were manifestations of the God who said and declared that he was good. In fact, he actually declared only he is good, you know, and we and the goodness kind of just flows through all of us as we stand in agreement with what he says, so we share in that goodness. But that is also a confirmation. So I have some questions. Is it possible for people to find peace in something that is not good

and not true? No, I would say absolutely not. How do you know that if somebody says that they are at peace, If someone says that they're at peace because of something that they believe is holy, would you push back on that? Well? I mean, I just happen to know that inherently a lie something that's not true, right, it can't produce goodness so to So yeah, but sometimes sometimes those things cause people this same inner peace that they cause to other religious people. An example I'm going to go to

are people whose children die from refusing blood transfusions. These kids are martyred like they're considered martyrs by the Jehovah's witnesses because they bravely accepted the rules of their faith and denied life saving treatment because of what they believed. And that thing gives people peace. It gives people who believe that peace that their family member

made the right choice in their eyes. So if this, if this, if this knowledge of truth comes from you know, the feelings of peace and all that, would you push back against this particular belief And if so, does that feeling then not necessarily indicate that something is true or good? Not

only not only the feeling. You wouldn't just I wouldn't just focus on strictly the feeling and that the two regular thing that's you specific example that you gave, because just because they got peace about it doesn't mean that was good. I have to reflect. So then how do we define goodness? You define goodness? You have to judge a tree by a fruit, the fruit that is that is manifested. And I wouldn't just go with the parents peace about

it and say, oh, that's a good thing. No, I would say that first of all, I'm very close to that particular thing, that that particular incident or example that you gave, because I have Jovah's witnesses in my family. But I'm not I am not a Jehovah's witness. And that is because I investigated and found that the scripture that they're basing, that whole

refusal to take blood transfusion is faulty. I discerned the darkness. I discerned the lie right, And so how did you determine if you're able to determine the lies from their religion? How did you go about approaching yours? How did you find out that your faith is true and that you're adhering the true things and not false things? Yeah? I had answered that earlier. When the word came to me, I listened to it. I heard it. First of all, how did you know that that voice was the right voice?

If you will, how did you know? Well? First of all, the truth made itself manifest to me in the in the the Word of God was made flesh in Jesus Christ. What does that mean? What does that mean other than you felt that it was true? It means that the truth was actually made flesh and dwelt among men and women. And how do you know that? How do you did the word become flesh right in front

of your eyes? And like did Jesus sprout from the page and walk up to you slap you on the face and say this is the correct one. How did this? How did this happen? You're describing a lot of very vague things of like this manifested for you and like you discerned these things. I need to know if I'm going to have the same experience that you did, if I'm going to read the same book and find out that it's true, how is that process going to happen? Like how did you have that

process? And how is this going to convince me that it's true? Because I should have a similar experience, right, Like if I read the book and if it's true, and if I should just know that it's true, I should be able to replicate what you did and have the same result. Right, Yeah, you're skipping something that I said that's very important, which is not just hear the word, but when you hear the word and have faith in it, then you obey what is commanded of you. And then

within the obedience there is confirmation of the truth of the thing. So you have to already believe it before I can believe it. Is that what you're saying, So you hear it, but then you have to But then you have to like it kind of sounds like you have to hear it and then you have to already commit to it, and if you don't commit to it, then you're not going to believe it. The faith comes from guys, a gift of God that he gives to every man and woman who hears his

word. Yeah, except for I tried and it didn't work for me. And there are several things that I will not I will not try because I mean, a lot of the Bible tells me that I cannot be who I am. So all that being said, it sounds like you're just kind of preaching, and so well, if you want to call back next time,

we'd be happy to address this more. But I want you to think, like, go home, think about what of your story is going to convince us, Like, what can i do other than just already believing something, because I'm not convinced and I did. I was a Christian and I was very committed and I believed the things that I was taught. I had that sense of inner peace like it mentioned, but I ended up not being convinced

now. And so I want you to go back and kind of think through your reasoning of how you got to that and we'll talk to you next time. Thank you, Jeffrey. Yeah, Ben, And before we jump to the next car, I just wanted to make a point of tying into something one of the channel followers sent in about Mother Teresa being in hell? Was Mother Teresa a saint? I believe, someone who is revered by a lot of Christians, and the whole notion of you judge a tree by its fruit,

like so goodness by its fruit. And when you consider the incredible amount of suffering that she allowed to continue in her hospitals for the dying and sick, is that a good thing? It was that the path of truth, the path of Jesus. And that's the thing that scares me too, is whichever religion you look at, you can see a lot of horrible examples of what this faith has led to. And so again the question remains, what is this truth? Who has access to it? Because you can point out

flaws in every direction. Absolutely, And with that we're going to move on to Stephen in Florida, who wants to talk about some different interpretations of the Bible. So Steven, can you summarize your question or comment to us? Hey, guys, thanks for taking my call. I first would like to bring up with what Annie said, God is not truth. You could argue that Christianity, it has forty five thousand different denominations globally, so you could

say it's it is the most divided religion known to man. Therefore, you could argue that Christianity has the less truth out of any religion due to the expansion of different divisions or denominations. If Christianity was truth, it would the reality. It would just exist. People would be able to find it without a book or a prophet or somebody trying to teach them what reality is.

It would just exist. And so I did call in for a different purpose, just to bring some light onto if we took the Bible literally, but I would. I would like to now challenge your Christian callers or your religious callers, mainly Christians, that believe that Jesus died for them, what tangible proof do we have that Jesus's sacrifice even was accepted by God. The only thing we know about life, the only certainty of life, is death. And if Jesus paid the ultimate price that we owe to God, and that

was Semitic death, why are we still born into a sinful world. And if you believe that, why wouldn't you be outsinning as much as possible so that Jesus's death isn't in vain. Yeah, I think that's an interesting point. I kind of want to address the topic you had called about, because the theists in the chat can call in with their responses, but I don't want to. I don't want to assume their perspective on this issue without them

being around. But I am very curious about your original topic because it just seems interesting to me. Yes, sir, absolutely. You know, other than Adam and Eve having three sons who populated the world, you find interesting stories in the Bible, like, for instance, if we use Jesus's baptism as a reference point, three days after Jesus's baptism, all the apostles write that Jesus goes into the wilderness to resist the devil for forty days, but

John doesn't. John writes that this is when him and Jesus are at the wedding in Canaan, and him and Jesus are both there along with Jesus's mother Mary, and John never says who's actually getting married, but Jesus is having such a great time that this is when he performs his miracle of turning water into wine. Now, you know they would have scare drinking water, so you can take that as you want. Jesus turning what little drinking water they

had into more alcohol couldn't really be deemed a miracle. But you know, that story doesn't matter until we get to the Last Supper, where the beloved disciples or the Christians will say they don't know who that was places his head on Jesus's breast. But this could also be the disciple whom Jesus married, considering the disciples didn't know where Jesus was all but John because when he's also on the cross, John writes that Jesus then entrusts his mother Mary to John

in John's care, and we all know that. You know, obviously the text tells us Jesus would have had a stepfather, Joseph, So I was telling the screener. You know, at the point of Jesus's crucifixion, Mary would have been at least twenty one twenty two years old. So it's possible, giving Joseph, Joseph's history of liking little girls, that he just moved on to another virgin thirteen year old girl when Mary was twenty one. She

might have just been too old for Joseph. I don't know if I accept that interpretation, because I mean, as far as I know about Jewish culture back then, I don't think that they would have easily just let somebody move on to somebody else. I think they had some I don't know if there are specifically laws, but they definitely had customs around, like monogamy and staying with us as spout. I know that they would often like take additional wives,

but I just don't know. I don't know if I have the expertise even to weigh in as much on this particular interpretation. But it's definitely interesting, right right. I mean, it's just it's it's more of a whimsical outlook as because I am an atheist, so it's more of taking the Bible literally. How funny and childish the stories are? You know, for example

of Adam and Eve having three sons who populated the world. You know, and you know, why how do we have four blood tights that are divided into eight groups negative, AB, A, B and O negative and positive Depending on what you inherit from your parents, you know this is all impossible from two people, and so you know, the Bibles were feuded with basic

science. But you know, if I'm just I just wanted to call and say, if we just took the stories literally, just reading the Bible, we could assume with the disciples not knowing where Jesus is in the story except for John, and with John giving Mary his mother on the cross, I mean, you could assume that he was the beloved disciple that the Christians are always saying that nobody knows who that was. Yeah, a secular spirit, any thoughts. I always wonder about this kind of thing of the Bible.

So obviously I'm an outsider, having grown up a Muslim, so I'm not that familiar with the Bible. But what really stands out to me is the sheer number of contradictions and variations and details of Jesus' life. And what's most interesting to me about it is when we're talking about literal truth, the ways that a lot of Christian apologists get around it, where you know, sometimes you just have to engage the text and interpret it and the truth will come

to you. All of them were accessing the truth, but from different angles and perspectives, but it's still the truth. So what matters in the end is whether it's literal truth, metaphorical truth, allegorical truth, whatever you want to call it. The Christian is stuck having to believe that it's true, or it was true at some point, or that there's an essence of truth

through it. So I think it's reached a point where, two thousand years later, no matter what you throw at them, what you throw at Christians, they'll find some kind of way to justify their belief in the Bible. And I don't know what the solution is to tackle that beyond asking for critical thinking and reason and to look at it with an actual open mind, not through the confirmation bias of belief. Yeah, read a different book, Yeah,

definitely. There are those Christians who are like I only have one book and that's the only book I need, right, And most of them don't even read it themselves. They pay something no interpret it for them, you

know. And then when you like, you know, this weekend, I told my aunt the story of Lot and she didn't even know that Lot was in the Bible, and I mean, I was like, well, that's a big character in the Bible. Did not know, Yeah, especially the sum of the unsavory parts of the story of Lots and you know afterwards with his two daughters. There's stories like that where I don't really know what you're supposed to take away from them. Are they just are they just there for

you to just kind of be awe struck. Are there morals you're supposed to take from it? Because it's scary if you do take it that way as a moral lesson, exactly, sir, Because the moral lesson that I got out of that that I take away is that God justifies insist with the first family having three sons, they either had sex with the mother or with the

daughter that the Bible doesn't say Adam and Eve had. And then we get a story of Sodom and Gomora where the same deity kills all these homosexuals and this problem solving all loving deity is about to kill the entire world in almost no time in the grand scheme of time with an entire flood, but he has to let you know how much he hates homosexuals specifically before killing the rest

of the world. So, I mean, if we're looking for things in the Bible from the first few stories we gather that no homosexuals died and know the wood because the deity already killed them before the flood happened. Yeah, lots of interesting stuff, and I agree that the book isn't isn't super reliable

and there's a lot of contradictions. We are going to move on, though, but if you have any more thoughts about this, we do have the Discord after show after this if you would like to pop in and continue this discussion. I'm sure we have lots of people in the discord that'd be happy

to have a group discussion about this as well. So thank you for calling in, and you guys, thank you, Thank you Steven all right, And for those that weren't able to get on the show today, I know we had a couple of callers still in the queue, but I want to encourage you to also join us in the discord for the after show because I think that those questions were really good for a group discussion setting. And I really hope you join us in a few minutes because we will prioritize your questions

if we see you in there. How did you enjoy today's show, Secular Spirit? Oh, it was really fun, Like it really flew by, didn't it. Yeah? Yeah, I think that there were a lot of really core important questions to feasts and for that explored reasons why a lot of people believe in God, and they're really really important and I'm so I'm kind of glad that we kind of covered a lot of them, like near death experiences, where did we come from? What happens after death? Where where

does truth come from? So yeah, really really good stuff to discuss. Yeah, it's a great show, a lot of variety, a lot of good calls, and I hope some of these people call back so we can continue our discussions here. But just a reminder for the audience today we have our talk. He then to me question of what would Jesus tweet? And I think we need to make those bracelets from the eighties or whatever, what would Jesus do? Bracelets? But what would Jesus tweet? Is now a

thing. So get your answers in the comments and tune into the next week's show where we read the top three answers because yours might be chosen. And we want to thank Richard Jilliver for helping out today as our backup host. He was very kindly sitting backstage telling us all the things that he thinks about the variety of calls that we had, and we got to see his lovely

facial expressions as he was fuming with a few different things. I just love when I get to respond to philosophy questions and he doesn't, and he just gets to sit on the watching me respond to philosophy question. Gonna lie. That was the first two calls, in fact, was I was kind of saying, this is right on my street. I so wish I was hosting this week. It's great to get a philosophy one way. It's not just people shouting at you and telling you that your grounding of being is wrong anyway,

So that'd have been that first call. Was great for that. I love the beginning of the universe calls. That's kind of my wheelhouse as well. So those first two calls as particularly, I was really like chomping at the bit, shouting at the screen, typing madly and chatting all that other great stuff. I just want to thank you Secular Spirit for coming onto the

show. It's been great having you along. Thank you for having me her truth yes, and please tell us I know you talked to us about the beginning, at the beginning about what do you do, But please remind the audience who you are where they can find you and hear more about your story. Sure, I mean, I'm an ex Muslim now atheist YouTuber. You can find me on Secular spirit on YouTube. I'm also on Twitter and Instagram. I talk about organized religion in general, although my focus is on Islam.

I am starting to cover Christianity a bit more in the recent months, and I'm going to continue to do so. And I just want to explore where we get our answers for life's biggest questions from and potentially maybe secular ways of getting those answers and meaning in our lives. Awesome love to hear everybody go watch Secular Spirits channel. I will be doing that as well. I will be going and liking and subscribing, turning on notifications, all of the

things that you should also be doing with this channel. Like I mentioned before, but let's throw out some lover rings to our audience. Jick and again we have our discord after show for anyone that wants to continue the discussion anything that we've talked about today, or if you have a new question or comment. You'd like to mention that is tiny dot cc slash ACD discord. If

you're not there yet, if you don't believe this is your community. We love having all of you here, providing a safe, secular space for all of you, especially those of you who have maybe had to be around religious family over the weekend and just need a little break. We're happy to be here for you. If you do believe, we don't hate you. We're

just not convinced by everyone. We want the truth, so watch Truth Wanted Live Friday at seven pm Central. Visit tiny dot cc slash YT and call into the show at five one two nine nine one nine two four two, or connect to the show online at tiny dot cc slash call tw