Talk Heathen 08.16 with Sofia Spina and ObjectivelyDan

Hey, everybody, Objectively Dan here. Now, did you know that two thirds of divorces in heterosexual marriages in the US are initiated by women. Did you also know that there's a growing number of people who would like to put a stop to that by ending no fault divorce laws. Now, ending a marriage can be and probably should be a mutual decision, but it should also

be available as a unilateral decision. No longer does someone have to prove abuse or infidelity to leave a marriage, and no longer does someone have to stay in a toxic marriage, at least until the law changes otherwise. So if you think a divorce is a sin, or you think people should remain trapped in a marriage, please try to give us a call. If you can't, because the show is starting right now. Greetings, seasons, Greetings, I don't know what spring seasons? Greetings? Why not? Hello, I'm

objectively Dan. This is Sophia. You know we are talk heythen this is the law show that happens on Sundays for you every single week. Talking than as a product of the Atheis Community of Boston, a five O one C three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation of religion and government. And not only is this a live call in show, but it's a call in show part of the live

call in show. That's the most important part of the call in the live show is the call in part of the live show. It's live and it's a call in show, which means you should call in right now. The number for that is a five to one two nine nine nine two four to two, or you can call from your computer at tiny dot cc slash call t H and you can do it. You don't have to wait until we stop talking and then we get to the calls. You can call in at

any time and we'll get to you anyway. Just want to emphasize that today because we need some folks to call into the show. We got some open lines right now, but we are ready to talk to you when you can. Uh, Sophia, how are you doing this fine, Sunday? I'm doing well. I like your slam home. U there about being a Collins

show and prov a little bit. Yeah, at a lot of a lot of themes in that, including calling and being live, I'd say, but we don't have time to dissect that now we've got a show to run, so yeah, yeah, So Sophia, we have a segment that we do every week. It's the Question of the Week. You know this, It's the talk Heathen to Me segment. Every week we tried to ask that. Last week we asked what was the sin that made God flood the earth?

And here are the top three answers for that. Number three comes from Chuck Gatos five, three, eight seven. God flooded the world because people were starting to worship Smoky the Bear and had to be shown how the big guy handles for as fires. Chuck Gatos, you you give you. You're featured a lot in our top comments. This is the most unhinged comment I think I've seen. I like to think he's referencing the fact that I was smoking the bear last Halloween on the show show, and so I like to think

I participated somehow in this or contributed him. I didn't make that connection. That's a deep cut too, that was the case, let me know. Yeah, thanks for your contribution either way. Number two comes from Rick Reasons, who says what sin caused the flood? Sloth? Do you see God forgot to put out the burning bush? He used to freak Moses out, so he hurried to keep for the rest of his creation. Catching fire here was a slight overcorrection, but the bush is out now. It's just very

funny. Also, definitely getting events out of order. Moses definitely came after the flood. But you know, nothing succeeds like excess, right, and who knows that better than God? I guess, I guess, so, I guess you're right about that. Number one comes from Goodie white Hat, who says God flooded the world because someone said his reign was weak, which you know is a thing that's a thing right at us now, because I I guess, so, I guess if you're personally insulted, you can just

kind of do whatever you want. If you're God. I don't know that'll really make rules for folks like God, he's the one that kind of does that. But anyway, the prompt for this next week is what's a good response to Jesus Loves You? You should enter your answer below in the comments and we will read the top three answers. But Sophia, what's your response to say like like in a gay way before the show? And it's still funny? I don't know why it's so funny when you say it, but

it is. And just to be very clear, it would be great, sure, you know, why not? I just feel like that's the if someone is telling me, I just feel like that would that would throw them off and make me laugh. So that's that's where I'm going with that. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I mean, the the very like sardonic, mean person in me would want to say, well, I don't love him back, right, or something along those lines, like it's like, why there's a one way relationship, right, Like I'm not you know,

I'm receiving, but I'm not giving. In this you heard the PRC Peaches song God is a Freak? I don't think. No, it's very fun, but the whole idea is like that God's kind of watching you when you're doing all these sexual things and so God's a bit of a freak, and that's that's the gist of the song. And it makes me think of

that, like, m so, see this is a little weird. Oh man, Well, we're already off to a great start here on We're doing a really great show show, the Sophia Show you, and we should point this out too. Because so in case you guys don't know, we always have a host and co host. That's usually how we do the shows. And all that really means is host is kind of given pace on the show and then doing announcements. But for some reason, you were your top billing

today on our thumbnail that was on the live show. You your your face is on there first, so maybe maybe you should just take them. I mean, first of all, I'm not going to volunteer for more work that you're already in the process of doing, so you can just keep that. I'm perfectly content. But also it might just be that, like I'm a little more glam Dan, I think you know, I think you're probably right.

I think that's that's probably why they did that. So next time, lipstick and lashes, gotta get on it, man, lipstick and lashes. You know that's good Patreon goal right there. I don't know why we don't do that kind of thing more real quickly, we need to give a special shout out to the wonderful, awesome crew that he'll make this show happen. In case you don't know, it's not just to be in Sophia doing all

the work. It's these lovely folks behind the scenes making things happen. So thank you crew, and thank you to you everybody that makes this show go round, because man, if it was just us, Sophia, it wouldn't happen. Oh you know, I don't know how to do any of this stuff. Just I don't know. We call it a day, say yeah, jokes and go home. I mean, yes, true. Okay, Well, we do have one caller in the queue here. You want to want to get this started, Sophie, Okay, I want to talk to

this person. There's an interesting, interesting topic. I think we'll see how this conversation goes. We have mcguil who's calling in from England. Miguel, you're live on Talk Heathen. What's going on? Yes, hello, Hello. I call him about a very interesting topic that has gone under the radar, you know. And it's the claim that the Quran has been memorized. And I don't believe that claim, the claim that the Quran has been memorized. You mean, like in its entirety. I mean, I claim no

one ever memorized the Quran. Well, you mean like the entire Quran, Like you're saying, no one has ever memorized the entire Quran. Yes, yes, yes, that's that's okay Muslin's claim, you know. And basically, I want to offer my flat in Spain, my three bedroom flat to whoever the first person who proves that the Quran has been memorized. It's like a price for a competition. Okay, okay, okay, wait wait how

first of all, First of all, okay, I get it. So there are there so it is often targeted Muslim f dish, right that parts of the Quran have been have been memorized, which lends credence to its authenticity. Right, so that the idea is like, you know that parts of this is the same as it was before, so we know that the Quran's not changed, right, that's that's that's what the apologist would say. But like, okay, regardless of that fact, how would you even prove that

it wasn't memorized? Like how do how what are the rules of this competition? Yeah? No, The thing is I think the Quran has never been memorized because the claim has never been tested. Because if for me, for me personally, you know, to memorize Kuran could be kind of a miracle, a literal miracle can be you know, like it would be like a

kind of running one hundred meters in one second something like that. Okay, but Miguel, how do we how do we how if someone were to say, I think the Kuran has been memorized, right, how would they demonstrate that to you? Yeah? It's very simple, you know. I mean the person whoever the candidates for the flood, you know, once to win

the flood, just to write the Qoran from memory. And that said, if someone can't write, to do that from memory, to do it in front of you, yeah, I mean, yeah, I would like to be in front of me. But I think it is you know, that would be like a massive event, you understand. That would be like I don't know, like the discovery of the that the Earth is around you understand. It would be a massive test, you know, because if they don't, if the candidates don't get an except copy of the Quran, that would

mean that would mean that they have been lying on a particular translation. Also so you can check it. Yeah, it has to be. It has to be Arabic, because the traditionally Muslims only except the Arabic translation of the Quran to be the most authentic, right, I think, but the thing is, it's not about authenticity. I mean, I mean, obviously it's about authenticity as well, but for me, it's about a memory, you know, I mean someone memory in any language. I mean, I give

I given my my claff took him in any language understime. Well, I think the thing is, though, I mean, we can have somebody to memorize the modern text of the Quran, and that wouldn't demonstrate the authenticity of the Quran in its early days anyway, right, Like we wouldn't be able to go back in time and figure out, oh, this was exactly what Muhammad, you know I talked about from the beginning anyway. So it's kind of a mood point, right The test is not about all the to to

to find out if the Quran was authentic. The test it took something if Muslims are lying, because if you say you have memorized the Quran and you haven't done it, you're lying. It's as simple as that. Yeah, I don't even know. This is outside of my scope of it. I don't even know if Muslims say that the whole Quran is memorized by single people. I almost wonder if different people like memorize just arts of it? Is

it? Is it the actual? Maybe I wish Richard was here. Maybe Richard could tell me if if that's true, and I because he would probably know more than me. But I don't know, Sophia, what do you think? So I think that my sorry ahead the thing is you go to internet. I read that two hundred two hundred million, two hundred million of Muslims are estimated to to to to have me write the entire Quran from I

mean it's as punishing. I mean it should be pretty easy true that if somebody was just like, oh, I'm one of those those people that Richard says that the claim apparently is bad messaging right now, Yeah, but it is individuals and they're called hafees, and they have competitions since he recites it most accurately, so that might be an interesting place to look and be like, okay, like I want to see one of those competitions. I mean,

realistically, I don't know if I have the patients. But I also wonder if someone's watching this show who's like, I don't know, I imagine some seventeen year old dude who's about to be on summer break in like Ohio and has nothing else to do. I could imagine they're being just like, hey, you know what I'm going to do this summer, like memorize the Kuran so I can get that guy's flat, Like there is part of me

that feels like that is likely to happen. Which it. You know, if you want to take that, take that risk, take that bet, go for it. I think it's demanding demand improve that the Koran memoris. I think it could mean the end. The end of it could mean the end of Lam. I mean, basically, atheists improved that the Quran has been memorized, that good, good end Islam. Wait wait, why would that end Islam? Because it's good to expose muslimsulf liars? Basically, you

know, if true? I mean, mis misremembering something is not the same as lying. I feel like though, right, like you can definitely misremember some events and not be a liar. I don't know, yeah, I mean, two hundred million people claim that they have memorized the Quran and they you test them and they have not memorized more. Okay, okay, okay, if they're if they're making the claim, okay, if they're making the claim, yes, I know the entire Quran, and then they can't reproduce

it. Okay, then sure, yeah those people are liars, But it doesn't make Islam a whole lie. You see what I'm saying here, Like, okay, again, I'm an atheist. I don't think Islam broadly speaking is true in any sense of the word. I'm just saying it doesn't necessarily

compromise the whole religion, at least I'm not convinced of that yet. I think I would also say that just because we have a claim on the Internet that two hundred million people may have memorized the Quran, even if one of those people has, then there is truth to the phrase that it has been memorized. And also, even if we prove that all those two hundred million people don't actually know the Quran, we can't say that it's never been memorized

because there's now been thousands of years. Maybe somebody in ther you know, eight hundred did it, and we couldn't necessarily prove that that wasn't the case. So I don't think it would dismantle Yeah, I agree, it wouldn't dismantle Islam. It would just mean that like some people who say they have something memorized, don't you know the point you don't understand. You know, to memorize the Quran, it could require a whole life dedicated to do it.

You understand, if you memor rite the Quran, you know, your entire life trying to memor write a book. You know, surely if you accomplish the mission, you complete the goal. Surely you want to pay so, surely you want to be recognized. Surely you want it to be you understand, you don't keep its secret for you. I don't know. That sounds like that's like maybe what would be the case for you, and to be honest, the case for me. Yeah, I would want people to

acknowledge it. But that's not necessarily how everyone is. As surprising as it may be, particularly if this is like an act of religious devotion to someone, then it might be something that they do choose to keep to themselves. Like what if this is you know, a farmer in a remote part of the world who is working on memorizing this as they're out, you know, chilling soil. I think that that's I don't know. The world is a

big place with a lot of different people. Not everyone operates with the same motivations, and so I feel like that's a big claim to be honest anyway. You know, I live it open for you, you know, so you want to take advantage of this, this kind of gup. You know, I live for you. You know, a flat, My flat is over for whoever I memorize or all right, I'm not listen. Listen, there's a guy named Miguel in England who has a flat for anybody that can

disprove this. We don't know how you can do it. We we haven't figured that part out yet. But if you can do it, find Miguel. I guess I don't know how are they going to do that, but you know, whatever, whatever it takes, right Miguel flat for whoever, whoever proof So you're right, the Quran from memory, I mean, it's right. It's a flat. Is a nice flat flat? Teach them living

room nice for these times, in these times. I'm sure I know some people like it's going to be easier for me to memorize the Quran than it is for me to come up with the money would take to buy a flat. Let's find where the fuck Miguel lives. I don't know we're not gonna we're not gonna post your contact in fil Miguel before you get any ideas. Okay, we're not doing that. So you know, yeah, it's very easy to contact me because I'm a I mean, I have discovered the nature

of addiction. I have discovered the nature of gold. I have discovered addiction. I mean, I have discovered it is a fallacy. I am. It's very easy to compapt me. I'm not a secret all right, I thank you, I am. I'll leave it at that. I'm not gonna let it look, I'm not gonna let you say any compromising information. I gotta let you go before before that happens, Miguel. So I do feel like I love the attitude of like, hey, people can find me if

they want. But at the same time, I'm like, I don't know that that's a great idea, Like, yeah, let's maybe I'm the guy on this following show. Okay, So yeah, uh yeah, I don't know. I don't know what's over Okay, But okay, I am looking more into this. I'm just looking at the Wikipedia article. Check this out. This is interesting and Iran. According to resolution five seventy three of the Supreme Council of the Cultural Revolution. There is at least one specialized examination of

the preservation of the Quran each year, according to specific criteria. The reviewer of this evaluation is oh wait, no, let me skip to the next part. Anyway, they do these things where you can get a dig that either equates to a doctoral, master's, bachelor's associates diploma, and diploma degree depending on how much of the Quran you have memorized. That's kind of crazy. You just have to memorize a book and you can get a master's.

Yeah, I kind of you know. Richard commented that they don't memorize the book. They learned the recitation, like learning songs with the pacting, phrasing and pitch. And I'm like, if I think back to Sunday School and how much I had memorized from the Bible, done that sort of same way, I feel like there was also such a period of Okay, this is me like trying to recall things, so don't be I may be a little

inaccurate or paraphrasing a bit. The more we have written word and the ability to access information that we know is consistent, the less we use our memories in as strict of a way as we may be used to. You know, we don't have bards in the same way who come around and tell epic stories and like that the Odyssey was something that was told before it was written down. That's a lot to memorize. That would seem unlikely for someone to

do today because we just don't prioritize memory in the same way. And so yeah, I feel like that to me makes it more believable that at one point or there was maybe more people and it was more common to his memory is such lengthy work. Yeah, yeah, no, it's true. Neil

Postman talks about this stead of using ourselves to death. Now we're going back into communication theory and shit, but we do live in a culture that identifies written word is higher than the spoken word, when in reality, you know, there wasn't always the case, particularly like Muhammad's time, right, Muhammad is famously illiterate, So you know, the oral traditions that came about from that was almost as much of a pragmatism as it was of you know,

anything anything else. Right. It's because when you have a culture where not everybody can read, it just makes sense to have an oral tradition for a lot of this stuff. So like the idea that one or two things could be different, I mean that that doesn't like, that doesn't necessarily compromise Islam. To me, it's just like we can we can look at way better

reasons than just like, oh, some people mis remember some stuff. A lot of true things have happened, and people misremember the events in their retelling. That doesn't mean that those true events aren't any less true, right, So I just think there's there's If that's your focus, then it's you know, not as strong of a case. It's never good at the Bible memorizing stuff. I remember struggling trying to memorize Hamlet soliloquy in high school, and

now I still remember a little bit of it. But I don't know if I could do the whole thing, that's all. It's I struggle really hard, man, I really I feel like I want someone to sit in a super chest to be like try Dan, try exactly. Someone sends a super chat of twenty dollars, Let's do twenty dollars, okay to talk even I will attempt to do Hamlet soliloquy twenty USD Baby, that's it, I'll do it. I like how this is the second where you know, twenty three

minutes another show. This is the second bet we have going, like you can get a lot out of today. I feel like an apartment gambling about competition in terms of money. Yeah. Absolutely. Now I feel like you were going to say something about the memorizing. Oh gosh, I don't necessarily remember what. Yeah, wow, the irony, I know, it's no good. It's so good that it was untrue that I had a spot or that I was going to say exactly because I cannot remember what it was.

Yeah. And by the way, this this applies to the Bible too. While we're still talking about this, I think this is important because like scriptural there's definitely especially if you look at Old Testament. New Testament studies is a little bit different in how you can categorize things because when New Testament, we have copies of the Gospels and copies of the letters that aren't original copies.

They're definitely you know, usually one hundreds of years afterwards. Sometimes I think one is within a few hundred years, couples of within years, but it's in fragments. We don't have original full copies and a lot of people point to this as, Okay, this is evidence that the stuff could be changed. I absolutely think that's the case. I absolutely think it could be changed.

But that's a bit different when you're talking about like oral core cultures and stuff, because like I don't know, like you can at least do textual differences and see, and yes, there are some differences. It is interesting to see that the ones that we do have are I would say somewhat minor. Most famously, there's like Mark, for example, maybe you know about

the Sofia at the end of Mark. In the Gospels, you see like there's this whole thing about how you can like cure people snake poison and stuff like just by praying for them and in the whole nine yards. They just like don't exist in early manuscripts. Another one is h the adulterous woman that people throwing rocks at and Jesus says, hey, whoever has you know, never sinned, can cast the first stone. Right, That's not found in

early gospels like at all. That's just not a thing, right. So so those are like I would consider kind of big deals because it's like, oh, that kind of affects the whole veracity of the narrative. But I don't know. It's it's so a lot of people just kind of get the conversation and take it in like weird ways, I guess, is all I'm saying. I don't know I'm going with that. That's when I'm thinking about, like any of these things that were written down or written down long enough

after that. If have you ever been in an argument with someone where you're like, no, you said this, and no I didn't I said this, or just full different realities and this can happen ten minutes after the event. I feel like just because someone wrote something down that they remembered, it might mean they fully believe it is true and that in no way are they attempting to lie. But it certainly doesn't mean that they actually are accurate. Yeah. Yeah, that takes me so long to reach. But it's not.

Okay, here's where I'm going with this. It doesn't necessarily mean manipulative intent. That's where I'm going with this, right, Okay, I think this is where I get. I think people say, oh, well, the I think people have this view of the Bible like it's this top down sort of instrument of control for people. And I don't think that's always been

the case. I think you can make a case for that in certain parts of the Old Testament, because there is a period Jewish history where they went from an oral tradition kind of to a more written one, and there's different changes in the Bible that were made based on the rulings of the time. Right. But like with the New Testament, it's just it's kind of a

little bit more. It's a little bit different because we don't even know, first of all, how we've officially truly chose the canon of the New Testament. A lot of people say, oh, it's because of the Council of Nicea. That's not what the Counts of Nicia is about. The Council of Nica is about a bunch of other stuff. Right. So it's like, I hear this from atheists all the time who think that they know this stuff, and it's just like it bothers me. I don't know, really does

I very much? So for me, actually, a huge part of my personal deconversion was about the Council of Nicea because I was reaching this point where I was starting to realize how much I had been mistaken about things in the past, and again I don't necessarily know if it was always manipulative intent. But I was told by people the Earth was six thousand years old, and I didn't have enough information to really counter that. I didn't realize that there

were more specimens of Lucy's variety than Lucy. Like, there was just so much that I didn't know, and I don't necessarily think the adults around me knew either. Actually, like so I have a hard time saying they were lying, but at the same time, like they were teaching things that were

false. And so I was realizing more and more of that less and less of sort of this need for God to make anything make sense and to put everything all together, realizing how much we actually do know about these scientific you know, I don't know finding theories all this stuff. And then I was like, well, okay, but if there's if you can rely on the text, then maybe there's something here. Maybe at least I can believe that all of the science stuff is true, but maybe also some of this text

might at least be accurate enough to something someone experienced. And then I had always been told that Council of Nice a narrative that they all got together and sort of decided upon what made the most sense. And it was always this image of these really scholarly individuals who got together and you know, had some

big brain time together and decided what Christianity would be. And then to learn that oh there was like one guy who was at the Council of Nicea who later on had a hand in deciding what would become, you know, or Christian orthodoxy. I clearly I'm not the most articulated about articulate about it right now, but I think for me that was like, okay, and what do I even have? Yeah, you know, there's just no need for God anymore. And also no no textual like there's no human history that makes

this make sense, right right? Yeah? And yeah again, even if these kind of arguments get muddled, it doesn't lend credits to Christianity in any way, shape or form. For those who are curious, there a list was produced in reference from the Council of Nicea that talks about, oh, these are the commonly accepted works, but that's not what the Council of Nica

is about. The Council of Icee is about creditarianism. Actually, mostly it was about gnostic interpretations of the Gospels and the Jesus message, saying that you know there was one spirit versus like multiple spirits, like you know versus, like the Holy Spirit versus God versus Jesus. Like that's that's more in the territory of the Council of Nicea. So there you go, folks, folks who are curious at home. And I gotta say, now, okay,

somebody it was Miranda Rensburger did donate twenty dollars. So so now I go, Okayburger, I don't have it up in front of me. Actually, I'm gonna put it up on the side so in case I if I need to reference it. But I'm not gonna look at it right now. Okay, here we go. I'm gonna try this. This is hamlet soliloquy. To be or not to be? That is the question whether'is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows about rageous fortune, or to take

arms against the sea of troubles and by opposing end them. And then he says to dot man, I'm already messing this up. I think you said to die, to sleep perchance to dream? Is that the next one? There's the rub for in that sleep of death, they flesh his air to Melee's ala something about the thousand naturals, a thousand natural shocks, that flesh is heir to. Oh god, I'm doing bad. Tis a constant, he says, Tis a consummation de Vallee to be wished to die to sleep?

I remember that part. Wait. Okay, I gotta look at this again to sleep. Okay, okay, all right, I'm looking at it now, devoutly could we wished to die to sleep? Well? Fuck? Okay? Uh, the sleep perchance to dream? I there's the rubber in that sleep of death? What youans make up? We have shuffled off this mortal coil. Must make us pause. There's a chance to make the suffering of their Fuck. Okay, man, I'm doing badly at this. I thought I remember more. I shouldn't have made this bet. Yeah, gave

us pause. Fuck now I'm reading this may have shuffle us more, call me give us pause. There's the respect that makes calamity of so long life. Okay, here we go. For who would I'm gonna get for who would bear the whips and scorns of time? The the proud Man's to the office. Something about an office. What's what's in there again? God, I gotta go back to this. The pangs of this prize, you know, the oppressives wrong, they're proud. Man's constably the pangs of his prize

loved. The insolence of office. Oh God, maybe I should just abandon ship here. I can't, Man, there's too much pressure now. I can't find it. I mean, you're I feel like you're in the first quarter at least, just like read out the last bit of an ending, right is there's not too much left. I don't think I thought I knew it. Something about a bear bodkin insolence of office in the spurns the patient merit of the unworthy takes when he himself is quite to make with a bear

bodkid wood fardles, bear to grunt and sweat under a weary life. All right, I'm stopping this. I'm aboring. I'm aborting. Well, well glad it wasn't it wasn't you earned that twenty dollars through efforts. Thank you? Wow. Thanks. I would never make it as a hazie and fees as a hafeez. Yeah, I would never make it as a feez handlet,

which is. I mean, hey, you did a I feel like it's relevant to the fact that, like memory is sort of f and we were just talking about that, and this was something at one point you had memorized and we got a little bit of a performance there. I love it. I just I just remember, I just remember shakespeare words in a jumbled order. That's really all I remembered here. I mean, isn't that what

most of Shakespeare is. I don't mean to offend a new Shakespeare scholars in the audience, but to our modern ears, there is a little bit of a like I look at those first folios, I'm like, it's hard to believe it's modern English. You know, you might not have been here for this call, but we've had at least one Foller who is talked about us about the authenticity of Shakespeare. I don't think they themselves were a Shakespeare scholar.

I think they taught English or something, but that that was the thing we That was a conversation we had. Actually maybe that was truth wanted. I don't remember, kind of I'm going to go ahead and guess that the argument is that, like, well, we we have less authentication for Shakespeare

or something than we did they were actually in support. They were saying that Shakespeare's they were talking about the you know, the myriad of conspiracy theories that are out there about Shakespeare not being the primary author of his works, which like care that is it? I don't know yet, credit where credits due, Sophia, you know. I mean, Okay, here's the thing.

If I'm going to go ahead and believe that there isn't a particular like afterlife where somebody's sitting around being like that all that Shakespeare stuff that was actually mine and they're still upset about it now like they're probably I would hope just kind of nothing that would be my That would be my assumption. So I don't know that they mind anymore. Yeah, I don't know. This is not always the case in every situation, but in this particular context, I'm not

that worried about whether or not Shakespeare wrote all of his plays. That is what I would say. I guess it's it's like, you know, it's drama, it's stolen valor. It's a stolen valor story, right, And it's like, hey, if this other person actually wrote all Shakespeare's plays, we should look at their works and consider them really awesomely right. I think that's I think that's why people get invested in that kind of fare. I

just don't feel like it's impossible for Shakespeare to have been a genie. Once in a while, they come around, you know, And so I suppose I've never been convinced. Maybe that's the that's the issue. We have a super chat that came before actually that I'm just gonna throw out there. Oh yeah, we do. It's from Siri Lay gave five dollars and said,

without divorce, my mom wouldn't have left an abusive relationship. Both my girlfriend and I would still be attached to abusive and toxic partners, which is definitely a good callback to the intro of the show, which we talked about no fault and divorce. Shout outs to social producer Katie for pitching that idea,

because it's true. I didn't really think of divorce as a big deal until I started getting involved in this activism stuff, and then I read all the posts from religious folks who are like, no, no, divorce is the absolute worst thing possible ever, and you should always, always, always fight for your marriage to never ever ever get into divorce ever. And I just realized how in saying that is that is not a good take to have.

So yeah, I feel like a lot of times people will look at divorce rates and how the outcomes for children from divorced families are often maybe not as successful. However, that would be defined in this instance as those from families that remain married. But I feel like there's so many possible reasons for why

that would be. Right. Is it that families that remain married are more likely to not have abuse or to have had less financial strain to Like, there's reasons why people remain married, and those can contribute to more positive outcomes for children. It's not necessarily the divorce itself. So when we try to make this argument based on like, divorce is bad because here's look what happens to kids from divorced families, that's not really a cogent argument, I would

say. I also, so this was sort of interesting. I lived in the Philippines for a bit, and divorce is very hard to get there, and so I can't speak for the whole of the Philippines, which is just people that I personally knew, but it wasn't that uncommon in my experience for folks to just have been separated for twenty years, have fully moved on with other partners that they live with, that they functionally have a marriage like relationship

with, but they never got divorced because that was difficult, you know, legally, And so I feel like if you removed things like no fault divorce, not only would you end up with people trapped in dangerous situations, but it wouldn't necessarily mean what folks think it would mean. It doesn't mean people actually stay together. It just means that you still have a legally binding contract

saying that you're married. You have a legally binding unhappiness at best, right, And I get it, right, I want kids to grow up in the best situation possible. But if a kid, like if a marriage is worthy of a divorce, that growing up situation is not going to be better, much better than at least a healthy divorce, right, And there are healthy divorces. I think I think there are ways you can do it and absolutely have a kid be just fine. Right, But you know, obviously

that still takes communication, right, That still takes absolutely something well. And I think it's interesting when we pair the idea of women initiating moost divorces with the idea that no fault divorce is bad. Kind of what we're effectively saying is that it's bad for women to be able to initiate divorce because there's sort of this assumption that there's no cause there or that that increases divorce rates. And yeah, it probably does. Women being able to leave does increase divorce

rates full stop. But I do have to wonder about the men in those relationships, like who has tried, how long has it been tried? What? And trying look like I also feel like, yeah, anyway, sorry, it's just interesting to think about, Like there's so many things happening in a relationship that it's really difficult to legislate around what is the healthiest environment for not only children, but the adults in that relationship? Too? True?

True? Yeah, there was you know, I just I just recently got engaged, and there was a question of, like, should do I even want to be married because of the vassle that comes with it. First of all, I love my fiance and I do want to marry her, but like, do I want the state to recognize that? Like that's that was like a kind of a mini conversation I had in my own head, and I guess for for for you know, for most legal purposes, it is in my benefit to do so, and you know, I'll just go ahead

and do it. But like, I really got to be thinking about how, just like God, how institutionalized we've kind of made this sort of relationship and just all the consequences that come up that I don't know. There's also so we've also talked about this too, about me possibly changing my last name, uh, or both of them changing either both of our last names to

something else, or me changing my last name to her last name. And I've looked up a lot of stories about dudes trying to do that and how like the irs towns them and stuff because they think they're like trying to lie on their tax documents and stuff, and then like people give them weird looks and stuff or ask all these opera questions. It's just like, yeah, we we have all these traditions wrapped up with this thing too that just make

this whole thing complicated. I don't know, I don't know, been thinking about all that stuff lately too. Yeah, I think that you also bring up a really excellent point that there's so much to marriage already that more and more folks are postponing marriage or not getting married and just continuing to stay together anyway. Long term cohabitation is extremely common, and a lot of folks treat that they might even have a marriage ceremony and not sign the paperwork and sended

in because they just don't want the government involved in that. Folks who are against no fault divorce, I don't think may realize that that just means a lot fewer people are going to choose to get married. I would have had a lot more hesitance around getting married if it meant that this would be impossible to get out of. I think that I'm more likely to get married knowing that I have no intention of divorcing my partner. These wonderful, great,

awesome double thumbs up. Yeah, but if I knew that I was trapped forever, then I would be less likely to get married at all. Yeah, Yeah, I think that's fair, folks. I think we might have another call coming in here, But we do have open lines at the moment,

so if you want to call in, you definitely should. The number is right there on the screen and for watching, but in case you're just listening, it's five one two nine to nine to one nine two four two or go to that little link link linky dodo in the description as I'm going to call it just now and calling through your computer if you don't feel like using your phone, because I get it. You know, there's a lot,

a lot of reasons why not to do that. Gosh, there's nothing about the Shakespeare thing I was going to mention earlier, but now I can't. I can't remember what it was about. Oh, okay, so the so the story of the shake. Okay, there's another element that Shakespeare story I was going to talk to you about, because when I had to memorize the Shakespeare thing, I think I like missed a day of school or something. It was the day I was supposed to like present to the class that

I've memorized this thing and get graded points on it. By the way, what what how was that beneficial? I don't know. I don't know why that wasn't a good time. Why couldn't I learn how to like do tax taxes or something. I love a metrical reading. When I was an English teacher for a time, I thought it was cool of kids because they would practice reading. But then they performed the reading and not have to memorize.

I felt was okay anyway, sorry anyway, So I had to do it in front of the teacher, not in front of the students with like another girl. I think I think we were oh, I think we were both in the school orchestra, and I think we had missed we had that's what it was. I think we missed it trip we had to go on. We had to go on a trip for school, and we had to do the next day. And so we actually did it in front of her at

the same time. And I remember like just kind of low key like following along with her because like I knew, like that's funny some of the words, and I was just like, ah, yeah, the insolence of law that, Like I was like kind of doing their really confidently. I remember passing, but I was just like I don't think I deserved that passenger. I actually think I probably wouldn't have done as well. So that you all had to memorize the same thing too, like not at least make it,

you know, expose kids to more. Anyway, never mind, Sorry, I don't need to criticize your teacher from decades ago and be like why did it? Yeah, talk about our school upbringing. But anyway, I'm sure you had to do some memorizing stuff your theater. I did, but I also did it on my own for fun. When I would be bored in other classes, I would start memorizing, like poems and things like that because I'm a monster, and so that was I can I can give you some

sonnets. I don't have to do that, actually, because we do have a caller in you right now, wet In from Texas. Mind liney, you are alive on talkithen? What's up? Hello the lady and Gentlespoon. I just thought I just started calling with my thoughts on divorce because I'm bidden through and as a person who's entry and stay in this country was predicated on my marriage, and that I believe is almost entirely arbitrary, it seems these days now. I wasn't doing a Richard gear. I wasn't coming in just

to get a green card. I very much loved my ex wife at the time, truly, truly, I'm blind. Libby, you're telling me that you weren't born in America. I'm just kidding, that'd be funny. I was like, really serious about it. My dad was not me but anyway, But the thing is is that we have to go through all these hoops. I had to get all these visas and shit, and we had to get married. When we came in it was a very simple ceremony. It

wasn't even a ceremony. We went to a courthouse in Williamson County, Texas. We wore jeans and matching T shirts. And the thing is is that it was so very arbitrary, seemed it was just legal motions we had to go through and the spirit of the marriage quote unquote really was just our efforts to want to be together. And then when it all fell apart at the end, she divorced me before my paperwork was complete to stay and that absolutely

wigged me out completely. I was stressed for almost a year, expecting the sword of damacles to fall. They go, oh, you're not married anymore, to get the fuck out of the country. But no, I when, yeah, I know, this happens all the time. You know, it seems like you're in on you know, on good faith, and my evidence was good, but it wasn't amazing. Some photos and some evidence we've gone on a holiday together and a copy of our shared lease and that was

about it, really, and you had a wait. I didn't know this. As a part of the process, you literally had to share vacation photos and stuff. You have to you have to compile the dossier of proof to show that your marriage is legitimate. Yeah. Wow, the best invasive. I don't want. I don't want to show President Biden pictures of me and my honey on vacation. I would say, you know, go away,

mister Biden. When this was blendlimy. So the timeline of events very quickly is first met online my two b wife in twenty ten, caught it up until twenty fifteen. She proposed to me. Twenty sixteen, I moved to Texas. We got married in April. April first actually, so what would

have been my eighth wedding anniversary was just passed. And then you apply for a green card and it's limited to two years predicated on your marriage, and then you apply to have that restriction lifted, and then they give it to you for ten years. Now. It took the USCIS, the immigration people, nearly two years to process my paperwork, and by that time the marriage

had completely fallen apart. I had been cookholded that's another story. And she'd divorced me and moved down and so I spent seven months in twenty twenty utterly stressed because I thought I'd go to this appointment that I was supposed to attend my wife alone in San Antonio, and they would kick me out of the

country. But they didn't. I went, well, yeah, you had you had your pace dubs were going into her bank account, and you had a lease together, and and here are some photos of you on holiday and they still seems legitimate. He's ten year green cards, ten minutes, seven months rest for ten minutes. So I went through something very Oh sorry, go ahead. So to my point, it seems like such an arbitrary set of legal loops loopholm has very little to do with the actual spirit of two

people joined together as one unit. Yeah. Absolutely, I went through my husband's Australia and so we went through something very similar recently. And it's for a long time. He had to go to Canada every two years to go to a consulate so they could renew his visa there, and then they would

have to send it back because he was on a work visa. And it's kind of all these like really specific things, even though at that time we were already married and there is so much legal stuff around it that it does, I completely agree, feel very arbitrary. I was like, pregnant. We put in our in our dossier, like the first ultrasound pictures because we still hadn't gotten the green card yet, but anyway, it was Yeah.

We also had the vacation photos in which I grew progressively fatter, so I was like, see, we've been together a while, time has passed. I don't like that. I don't like that. I don't like that you have to show your whole I mean, I get the rationale, right, but like, I don't think it should be a big deal in the first place. I'm this, this is outside the politics of the show. I should you get into it. I'm an open borders kind of guy, to

be honest, I'm more into that side of the camp. I don't think you should have to demonstrate that you're that you really really like an Americans so you get to live here like that. That to me just doesn't doesn't compute. I don't think that's a good reason to be like, oh, I

got yeah, that's this American likes you a lot. I guess that means you can live in our country now, Like that doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, But anyway, I'm glad you're I'm glad you're here still blind lommy, I'm glad they didn't pick you back over the pond. You know, who knows knows what it could have happened to you in the savage lands of England. I mean, goodness, anything is possible, you know, apocalypse probably, probably. But then there's the other end, there's

the other end of the spectrum. And I am also an example of this because the certain denominations that hold the marriage, the ceremony of marriage, the institution of marriage is this like unassailable sanctified thing. Catholics very specific. But because religion, especially in this country is treated with such kid gloves, you can basically marry on very little credentials. I am an ordained minister. I don't believe in any God, but I'm part of I'm a urinitarian minister.

I feel that a form it was free online legally marry people in the state of Texas. That's how sanctify sanctified, this vaunted establishment of marriages. They'll even let a chad like me do it. So should we call you Reverend Blindling? Now? No father, just me daddy anyway. But this is

the thing. So I put a challenge out to all the feasts out there, and all the people who feel that marriage is special and sacred and wonderful because of some external ordainment rather than intrinsic togetherness, prove that there's something more to it than just arbitrary bollocks. Because Dan and his missus, I think, are going to be together forever, not because of marriage or because of legality, or because of God, or because of any old bollocks from the

outside. It's just because they are wanting to be together and that's how it should be. And there's no internal crap that's going to affect that, in my opinion. But who am I to say? I'm a divorcee. Sometimes the best true true. Thank you, Thank you for the kind words, Flying Lowry. Gosh, that'd be really awkward if we end up not working out. But I think you're I think it's gonna be. I think we're good. But no, yeah, I agree with everything you said. You

know. One of the funniest things too, is yeah, go ahead, Well sorry, I missed that. What was thathip oh, thank you beautiful

relationship? Maybe waves no that whenever, you know, when gay marriage was finally legal for everybody in the US, that was a counter argument that people were talking about when that was still an issue was, well, it'll devalue marriage if the gays can do it, basically was the argument, right, Like, marriage is supposed to be the supermagic institution that only only straight people can have, and if the gays do it, well, it's not as

special anymore, which is like to your point, like you could just marry anybody whatever. It doesn't Yeah. Also, child marriage is still largely legal. You know that's also true. That's like, if it's that special and we need to keep it special, then let's just all agree to keep it above eighteen. Like you know, it's like, nah, fourteen year olds

can get married with parental consent. It's fine. I'm like, you know what would devalue my marriage is watching a middle school or get married right next to me, Like, I don't know, piece marriage aint specialism, institution, marriage aint ordained by God. The union of two people is special, but you don't have to go through a bunch of loopholes to make it so

that's that's all. That spent a couple of days full on in training for marriage therapy very specifically, so my brain is very in that right now a couple's therapy specifically not marriage therapy, so could apply anywhere, and so much I feel like of the biblical advice for relationships is sort of contraindicated for actually having a loving and lasting relationship. The notion of submission on the part of

one party is absolutely not helpful. The idea that there needs to be a leader full stop is again absolutely not helpful, even amongst couples who are religious, Like it's about perspective taking and taking your share of conflict and things like that, which are I feel like is often not at not what is actually

preached. Sorry, I just hit my table, and so yeah, it's interesting to think about it as the sacred thing when the past two days I've been steeped in like kind of the science of it, Like here are the ways that we can interact that have been shown to be successful versus less successful, and how do you recover from those things? There's a science to it, just like anything. Here's another thing too, A lot of people say, actually, I'll go ahead and let you go first. Thank you,

Blind Lbe. We really appreciate you calling in. I will keep you on the phone forever, but thank you. This is better with you in it. Yes, I endorsed that. Thank you so much, Blind Libby. Yeah. What I was going to add too is just uh, oh gosh, what was I about to say? Wow? I forgot Oh no, okay, So you know, as an atheist, right, people first of all make the very wrong assumption and say, well, isn't marriage a Christian institution? Why do you want to take part in marriage? As if people

weren't getting married before Christianity or Judaism was the thing. But you know the fact that I don't believe there's an afterlife, or the fact that I could do whatever I want with my life, I could, you know, be as promiscuous as I want to, or have as many long term relationships with people and not get married as I want to. But I am still choosing to get married because I love this person and I want to be with this

person. If anything, that should make the marriage like even better because I have to because a religion says, well, this is how you could responsibly pursue a relationship. Now. Granted, actually there's very good evidence a lot of points in the Bible where Paul specifically says people shouldn't get married at all, which no Christian ever follows outside of monks, I guess. But outside of that, for everyone else, I do get married, and not to

contain my lusts or whatever, as like Paul puts it. But no, because I do love this person and I do want to be with them, and I can do that. If anything, again, I think it makes the marriage I don't know, even more important. I guess, yeah, well, because when it comes to there's going to be some of my couple's therapy training was going to come out. Hence I floofed my hair for some reason. That's me giving a presentation. I guess when it comes to any

ritual in the life of a couple, it is more effective. It matters more when you've agreed about what it means to you. So if you're told by some third party, external source that this thing is important and you do it for that reason, that can be any ritual, like you know, buying someone flowers on Valentine's Day, If you do it because you're supposed to

because culture says so it isn't as meaningful, it isn't as powerful. And that's sort of been born out by research that having a ritual can be absolutely very important, but you need to agree on what it means. And so with my relationship, just as an example, we didn't necessarily agree on the concept of marriage from the beginning. We talked a lot about it and talked a lot about what it meant to both of us as individuals and then us

collectively before we actually decided to be married. That may that gives it so much more power. And so I sort of love the way that you're talking about it because it means that there was some level of agreement and exploration is too. If you want to enter into this because you actually thought about what it meant in your specific situation, you know. Yeah, yeah, I one hundred percent agree on that. And Sophia, we have another call and

wants to talk to us. We have Delen, who's calling in from Virginia. Dalen, you are live on talk key than what's going on? Yeah, uh so I wanted to call in. I am an atheist and uh I agree with with having people come into our country and stuff if they want to. And I heard you say you agree with this concept of open borders. I wanted to ask if you elaborate a little bit more on that, what that means, what that would look like, how you protect immigrants from,

you know, being underpaid or not being treated equally. How do you how do you go about those type of things. Okay, sure, I can give my take. I will say this. This is not my expert. I'm not. They don't let me on talk Heithan to talk politics. They let me on talk Eithan to talk religious stuff mostly, so let me

give that caveat first of all. Okay, so this is not I'm not used to talking about this on the Collins Show format, but in short, because I do think it does tie in to some concepts in this show, and I can get to that. But but but I was first introduced to this from a book from Brian Kaplan and he did it with this guy. Can't remember the other author's name, but the book is called Open Borders, and I'm googling right now. Open Borders the Science and Ethics of Immigration is

what is what first turned me onto this concept. Okay, so you know I'm born in the US and that gives me some legal rights and limitations on where I can go. If I was born in Malta, my life, my opportunities will be completely different than what's afforded to me in you know,

the country that I was born in. And so on some level there's you know, if you if you take into account the veil of ignorance, right, if we were able to you know, not be able to know where our circumstances would be when we were born and we had the choice to pick it, we and of course, well a lot of us would want to be born into you know, like first World countries, right because like of of what's been given to us, barring anything else, right without without knowledge

of anything else. And so there is inherently economic advantages and disadvantages for where you're born. I'd like to try to mitigate that as much as possible. I think open borders presents this kind of idea. You mentioned this example.

I've worked for companies in the past that have outsourced labor to places like India, places where they actually get the same level of training that I do, but they get to pay them lower wages, which again are better for most folks that are living in India, but you know, are just taking advantage

of an economy that's just isn't the same as the US. There there's I feel like those people should be getting the same amount of pay that I get because we're getting the same level of work, but they get it relative to their geography versus relative to their level of capability, which I just think is philosophically wrongs. So Open Borders kind of proposed this idea about basically open economic borders between between different countries to be able to have more accessibility for opportunities.

I think it would raise levels of poverty across the world. I think it would give people, you know, more access to better kinds of work than what is often offered in the places which they're bore, and so like that's that's kind of what makes me, you know, interested in pursuant of that kind of policy. How that plays into citizenship that might be a bit of a different conversation, And to be honest, I don't know the full answers to that, But in terms of like employment, yeah, I'm totally open

borders. I don't really see how you know, like I said, Blindlimy just liked an American that's that's what he did. That's what he earned to be here. He didn't have to like memorize the Constitution. He didn't have to you know, be born in a hospital here like I did. Like he he had to go through a whole bunch of paperwork and stuff that I just didn't have to do, you know, just to be in the country

that he will want to be in. And and and I I just want to try to, you know, equalize that as much as I can, because I just think that's ridiculous. So anyway, that's my take on that daily did I answer? I just want to make sure I did I answer your questions so far, because I talked a lot there. Uh, yeah, I think you did. If I'm understanding you correctly, your your view is less about citizenship and more about an economics where people would get paid equally

for equal work. Am I understanding you correctly? Yeah? I mean that's what I'm mostly interested in. I mean, obviously, I think I think I think, first of all, fucking anybody should become USS and if they want to, fucking that's my opinion. I don't really care. I I this country was built on robbing other people of their fucking land and just saying yeah, we're here now, so fuck it. I don't give a shit. Anybody could be an American fuck you, not you specifically, just I'm

fucking the general population. That's that's what I mean when I say that, you know, out of context and anyway, Yeah, citizens just bullshit, I think for for the most part. But in terms of American citizens, yeah, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't do anything to earn this. I did nothing. I got I got a paper given to me when I was born that says, congratulations, you get to be better off than most of the world because your parents lived here. Right, That's I think

that's stupid. Uh. You know, I think I agree with everything you said there, Dan. I would also say that it's possible. I'm a little bit more aspirational in my idea of like what it means to be American. Like I see what it's been, and I'm like, but it could be. You know, this is such amazing, this amazing thing, right. I I sometimes about to like reclaim patriotism from folks who I think are

are deeply corrupt in their impression of it. And I look at it and say that that so many of the folks who believe the most in what the promise could be of America are immigrants. And you know, God bless America. I was written by an immigrant, so like, we have such a storied history, and it's like people who become late in life atheists or latent light Catholics, they I'm very like passionate about that new thing that they are. I think we're only really made better by it. I think that that's

born out again and again by evidence. And it's not because it's like there's a lot of paperwork to become an American and so you're really proud of it now because you finished all the paperwork, And that's really what it means. It's because there is there can be anyway an American ideal. And I think that a lot of the folks who are born here and get really nativist about

it are completely missing what I find value in. I would also point out, like when I am also fairly radically open border that for me it would also mean things like, you know, thinking about how to have people be able to come and work here and then also go home again. But while they're here, they are spending money in our economy and making our economy better,

making the communities that they live in possibly better and more functional. And whenever we end up talking about like stealing American jobs, not gonna lie. My husband was that guy. He moved here from Australia because we couldn't find enough people to fill tech positions in the Seattle area and there weren't enough people

who lived in the Seattle area to do so. Right now, there's legislation that says that he has to be paid more than an American worker, And the idea behind that is that it's supposed to discourage the hiring of foreign workers, which doesn't really happen because there were not people to fill those jobs here

anyway. And so I would look at it and just say, like, we have things that we can do in our education system in terms of like availability of jobs in the United States that we can you know, if we're worried about having enough jobs to go around for folks who are born here,

we have solutions, we're just not enacting them. And so when I look at it, I'm like, why would we pretend that this is going to help, you know, I think whenever we get to the core of it, it's the same old nativist talking points for closed borders or for restriction that we've always had, Like if you look back historically, it's always based on

penophobia. It's always based on a misunderstanding of how economics actually works. And yeah, that it is like, you know, pointless, I moved to Texas late in life comparatively, and yet I'm still like, you know what, I'm going to make this a place that I can make better. Why would we not want that? Yeah, yeah, that's true. And I

mean my concern isn't really about American jobs or any of that. It's more like, you know, being a citizen gives you protection under you know, workforce the like basically I can't remember is it Workforce Services or whoever it is that comes in and dictates like how a human being can be treated in the workplace and stuff like if you're not a citizen, then companies can companies can

like pay you twenty five cents or mistreat you. And there's no protection for an immigrant who is just trying to make an honest living, you know, like that, I guess that's where my concern is. Does that make sense?

Yeah, Well, and there aren't really protections for undocumented immigrants which is why I think an open border idea is that there would be fewer undocumented people and more people could come in legally, so more people would be extended those protections simply by by the government knowing they're here and therefore being able to enforce

those protections. That would be my take. I don't know what are your thoughts in Yeah, I again like, I don't care again if it when I've went brought up the example earlier, I'm in the same boat as you, Dalen. I don't care that an Indian person is taking my job. That's I care that they're not getting paid the same that I am. They should get paid the same that I am relative to my position, because they're

doing the same kind of work. So yeah, I think that comes down to we have a privileging of American citizenship almost compared to other people doing that kind of work. In my ideal world, people could be able to locate or do work in other countries without any restrictions whatsoever, and if that would, in my opinion, open up the competitiveness that we could have of work. The fact that we do have laws that say, hey, you can't treat American workers this way. Oh, but you can treat people in these

other countries. Yeah, fuck it, Like that's the problem right there. Maybe we shouldn't have special treatment for that. Maybe if we want to be a true capitalist nation, we say, hey, the folks over here are doing really good work, we should get them in instead of I don't know. Again, this is I'm not a scholar on this. This isn't what I normally talk about, but this is just my own thoughts. You know, well, I appreciate it, and I'll read that book Open Borders,

Science of Immigration and take a look at what his argument is. So yeah, pretty interesting. Again, it's it's the biggest thing I came about, was you know, it would enhance overall world economy if if, if all countries were able to produce an open borders policy like this. You know, there's this idea that, oh, some countries have benefited from others if this was But his argument is actually the opposite that it would, you know,

you know, bring up will poverty. But again, this is me just I'm a guy who just read a book and is just parroting stuff from a book. That's not my field of study, that's not my expertise. So I'm just making as many caveats as I can. So anyway, anything. Also, most decision makers, I would be surprised if they'd even write a book. So you know, we don't just scare yourself too much there, Bud, I guess, so something to be said about that anyway, Daily

anything else you want to add before we let you go. No, I was just I was just curious because it was a concept I'd never heard before, So I was I was just curious. Yeah, for sure, it's definitely not as popular of an idea, I guess because America we don't like other people. I think, go real quick. Yes, sorry, not

on that point. That's an important one. But before you go, Jimmy Junior is hosting next week and Dylan, he would really like you to call in when he's hosting, So if you're available next week to call him to Talk Heathen. Jimmy Junior, who will be hosting, would love to talk to you. Yeah, sure, you said, it's Jimmy Junior. Yeah, he'll be hosting next week's Talk Heathen. And he apparently commented in messages you saying he wants to talk to you. So either you did something really

right or really wrong. That's really right. I mean, yeah, let's let's hope really right conversation. All right, thanks so much, Dayly. Let's you go have a good one. Okay. So the other thing I was going to say about this, right, So back to my college days, I remember my communications professor actually showed us a video of Joel Osteine and

we were supposed to it was for media. Uh we're talking about like presentations in media, I guess, and he and he was using a sermon from joelos as an example, and he just he pointed something out that just at the time just really blew my mind. Maybe it's more of a banal observation now, but you know, he showed a shot that was panning the whole church and he said, check out those flags in the back. You see

you got the American flag and the Christian flag. And I thought he was going to make a commentary about the Christian flag, because you know, there is a Christian flag that that organizations to do. And he's like, why is that American flag there? And I was like why is that? So in the book White Too Long, which is written by a Christian but it's about the history of American Christianity and how it can overlap a lot with white

supremacy. He talks about how when there were Biblical scholars who toured the Museum of the Bible in Washington, d c. And some loved it, but some actively pointed out how they made American history inextricable from Christian history in a way in that museum, and the owners of Hobby Lobby put a lot of

money into that particular museum, which I found rather interesting. But it's sort of this, it's a very narrow view of even Christianity, and even Christians in this instance, we're calling out how the more you make Christianity America first, the more likely you are to attract white supremacists and white supremacist arguments because it does tend to privilege one nation and their view of the founding of it,

and how it actually protects Christianity somehow, which I thought was really interesting. Yeah, that is really interesting. Yeah, there's definitely. First of all, if you grew up in a conservative evangelical church, or you grew up around folks that were like that, like I did, they tend to have the same ash feelings about immigrants, which is, in general they don't like him, or they just talk about we should keep get getting the good

ones in, right. There is this idea that, oh, these immigrants have to the ones that work really hard and you know, really trying the system. You know, they should be able to get it where It's like, yeah, dude, I know your son or whatever, he's not working his hardest, but he gets to live here, you know what I mean. It's like, there is this idea that, oh, if they're going to come here, they have to be the most hardest working. They have

to be you know, they have to contribute something economically or else. Their value of being here as a person like isn't worth it, right, and it yeah, yeah, you know it's interesting because I I feel like we should do super chats and patreons. But I'm also going to do this quick that I do have heritage from the Mayflower. I have heritage from like early founding in Pennsylvania, people who were Quakers, people who ended up moving to

the United States because they were politically active. Actually it kind of got kicked out of where they were already from. I know where my ancestors were and

what they were doing during the Civil War. I can tell like I have a very strong and very long heritage of people who lived in America, and I absolutely look at my family of Ruffians and sometimes agitators, and they have not always been right, and they have not always contributed to anything economically, and I would find it absolutely ridiculous if I were to then gatekeep this idea of what it means to be American when also I can tell you that the

folks of the Mayflower, they didn't fell any paperwork, just showed up. And so I look at it and I'm like, my, apparently some of my family, and this was actually some of the Christian part of the family. They didn't want to be part of a United Germany, and so they moved to Oklahoma. And I'm like, how does that? I mean? I would like to think eventually that benefited of Oklahoma, I guess just because of my own personal family pride. But again, I don't think they've really

filled out much. They just kind of showed up and we're like, let's have a farm in one of the hardest places to farm around. Definitely not overforming this land like everyone else has already been doing. So I don't know, it would just be so insane to I've heard people talk about, well, my ancestors came here the right way. I'm like, the right way

was easy as shit back then. Though. Yeah, all right, yeah, I mean you can take advantage of undocumented people in this country too, right, There's just there's you know, I think DayLA's kind of mentioning this, but it's like, yeah, the people who are here to work even to take advantage of those opportunities, they don't even get the same benefits that we do, and they work just as hard, if not harder, than a lot of people that I So it's just a it's just this idea of

citizenship, this idea of being American, if it if it truly is more ideology based right as as you aspire it to be. If it's really more of a dream anyway, right then then paperwork should be the last thing that anyone should care about when it comes to people being here. But that's not how we work or the world works, and that's unfortunate. Anyway. I love to talk about things that we're more inclined to usually talk about, specifically

our patrons, Sophia. We do have our top five patrons listed out this week. Would you like to read them? Sure? We have number one dingle Berry Jackson. Number two oops all singularity number three, doub or belgeen? Did I say that one? Right? I'm always they I'm always trying. Number that was three? Yeah, number four okay, I have to like this one, this one, Calevi Helvetti, Yeah, that's it. Number five Leaves in the Trees And honorable mention to number six Phantom met which

is a really fun name. Yes, there's so many really fun names. Number five Left in the Leaves is actually what it is? You said, left in the trees. Yes, you're right, it's leaves, not trees. I'm sorry. I want to make sure our patrons get their full shout out, so thank you to everybody that donates on the patron fun fact Sophia doesn't get any of that. I don't get any of that. Most of our volunteers, I mean all of our volunteers don't get any of that.

It goes towards the atheist community of Boston and it tells them that hey, talk to his cool show and we should put more stuff into it. So thank you to everybody that donates on that. We also have a super chat from Jimmy Junior member of two Months, who gave a dollar ninety nine and in the super chat said, I fucking love both of you, so thank you for that. Is great and very it's very funny. I don't know we get super tests from like our own HEAPS system. I don't know.

It's it's really funny to see that happen. I still feel like I'm a newer host in many ways, like I'm still getting to know it. So I'm like, Okay, I did something. Okay, Like, yeah, Jimmy Jr. Is awesome. If you haven't seen a show with Jimi Junior, you should definitely check it out. We have another person, they're in the calling cube right now. We'll get to them in just a second. So we got a few more minutes of just you and me, Sophia.

What oh yeah, let's do screenshirt real quick. Yeah yeah, if we got a screenshot on the ready, and we just let the crew know, hey, screenshot, put it on the screen if you got it, and then we'll give our wonderful, fabulous and informed commentary. Let's see what this one says. This is me that says would do things of the bottle. I guess it's me talking about it. And then somebody commenting who has the authority to decide when you are born and when you die. The author of

life, He makes that decision for every single person who lives. You are deriding God for being God. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound and how bad of an argument this is? Uh? Well, I guess if I thought that a fetus was a person, maybe you be onto something. But I don't. So is that that's it? That's all I can say, because that's that's one hundred percent talking about abortion. I don't even know the

context to know that's what. That's right. I feel like just following the internal logic of this comment, like so, if God has control of these things, then you shouldn't criticize him for controlling them. Question mark with the whole like the writing God for being God thing, It's like, I mean, that's sort of saying that if someone has the authority to make a choice, you cannot criticize the choice. Thing me and that seems very silly to me. Yeah, Like, Sophia, let's say you have answer and do

you seek treatment for that cancer? And I would say no, Sophia, you need to let God be the deciding factor as to whether or not you pass from this illnes is. I think anybody would rightfully tell me to fuck off if I ever said that, because that's fucking stupid. And the fact is, for abortion care right, we have ways to make this as seamless of a procedure as we can possibly get it to be right, Like we

could make all parties involved as comfortable as possible. And when it comes to fetus, especially if we're talking about in the first trimester, even they don't there's no capacity for suffering at that point for the fetus, So it's not like you're really harming an individual. It really comes down to what's going to be working best for the family involved, because that is the most important decision at the end of the day, and if you don't agree with that,

then we're just not talking the same thing. I don't know what you care about, but it's not people if it is right. I think when I went into a deep dive of my opinions on that particular topic, I just was like, Okay, whether you believe abortions or abortions, sorry, the

Holy vetuses are people or not? Do I want to adhere to the idea that anyone is able to claim the organs of someone else to keep them alive, because say that the person who's pregnant and the fetus both have full personhood, it would still have the premise that this one person, the fetus, has the right to the organs of another person to stay alive. And I don't agree with that or believe in that, So like for me, that's that's where I do sort of a limit. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

we got one more call today we get really serious. We might be more serious. There is one more call in the cue. I think if you want to take it, we can. Otherwise we can in the show early we think you want to go for it, Let's do yeah quickly. I mean, I'm curious about the argument. So okay, let's see here. We got Chase, who's calling in from the USA. Chase, you're live on talk hethen And if we can, let's try to make it just a

little quicker because we are getting towards the end the show. What's going on? Chase? All right, we can do this as quick as possible. I got a thought experiment about animal rights and it's called name the Trait. I'm ready for you a game, Okay, cool. I just don't want

to overwhelm you and stop me if you need to. So basically the idea is the question is, so name the trait in TT is a consistency test basically, so it asks the question, uh, basically, what is the difference between humans and animals that makes it okay to slaughter animals but not slaughter

human? And so instead of actually running in TT on you, instead of running name the trade on you because it can make people uncomfortable and stuff, and I love y'all, I don't want to make it a debate, or I can just kind of explain the process to you and how like some people give their common answers, and then the response to that, does that sound good? Okay, let's do it? Okay? Cool. So, so some people will say, in response to that question, what's the difference between

humans and animals that makes it okay to slaughter animals but not humans? Is that animals have lower intelligence? And so that that's the trait that they're naming, is that animals have lower intelligence than humans. And I can grant that,

right, We're smarter than animals, sure on average. But then the question would be, well, what if we found a human who had that trait of lower intelligence than the average human, such that you know, this human was let's say, brain really brain damaged or mentally disabled, such that they're only as smart as like a three year old child or a dog or a pig. Is it okay to slaughter that human because they have lower intelligence. If intelligence is the trait, then it should be okay to slaughter this

human. But most people say, no, it's not okay to slaughter mentally disabled people, right, or anybody of lower intelligence, because it doesn't We all seem to agree, for the most part, most of us agree that just because somebody's of lower intelligence, that's not a justification to cause them harm.

In fact, they need protection stuff. So then we have to like so then the person will have to kind of go back to the starting point and name a new trait, because if they don't feel comfortable with that situation, then it's not the fact that lower intelligence was the trait that makes that differential treatment, And so then they'll say maybe, you know, oftentimes they'll say things like, well, it's DNA, it's the fact that we're human

and the animals are animals. It's not lower intelligence, or maybe it's you know, the end. So we'll say, okay, well, what if we found an alien species, you know, big hypothetical, But what if we found in species that was not human, they had different DNA, but they looked just like humans, and they act just like humans, and they think just like us, equal intelligence to us, but they have different DNA.

Would it be okay to slaughter these this alien species for non you know, out of just for pleasure of the taste book and most people, most people, you know, sometimes people will say, yeah, it's trying to kill aliens, and it's like, well, okay, you know, or or you know, even though they look in actions like us, or sometimes most people will say, no, it's not okay to kill like, you

know, those individuals because they're so similar to us. And so then we have to again go back to the drawing board the initial position, Well what is the trait then, you know, And sometimes they'll say, well,

it's a combination of those two factors, lower intelligence and DNA. So then I ask, well, if we had that that alien species who look just like us, except they're mentally disabled or brain damage to the some degree right to where they're only as smart as a three year old child or a dog or a pig, but they look and act just like a you know, I'm basically a mentally disabled human, but they have different DNA and their lower

intelligence. Do those two traits now justify slaughtering this individual? And some people will say, yes, it's okay to kill mentally disabled aliens that are just like indistinguishable from your regular mentally disabled person. And some people are like, no, that's disgusting, that's terrible, it's wrong to do that. So we have to go back to the drawing board. But if they're consistent,

and I'll wrap up real soon here, I know I've been ranting. But if they're consistent and they say, yeah, it's okay to slaughter the mentally disabled aliens because they have lower intelligence and different DNA, well I would just call that a reductio ad absurdum. Where they're consistent, yes, but their argument reduces to absurdity where they look atrocious, and most people will think that's pretty disgusting behavior to do that. If that were if if that was someone

there, you know that that would be a terrible thing to do. And so the other option is just to realize that lower intelligence and different DNA or the different shape that somebody comes in is irrelevant morally, and that we should respect animals and aliens and anybody who's different and just be nice and not slaughter them. All Right, there's a lot of things there there, Sophia.

Yeah, I was just thinking maybe, just because of the interest of time and we're kind of like trying to wrap up, maybe we can respond to you off air, just so it doesn't become a huge conversation. I don't know, but either way, I would say that Unfortunately, I think kind of the whole idea is a bit of an adductive Adamsterdam, because we're trying to reduce the experience of being human to a specific trade or even specific cocktails

of traits with people who have maybe never thought about this before. I think it's a fun thought experiment, just because I think it's good to critically examine why we are okay with eating meat, and I think it's okay to be uncomfortable with that and to think about like what our limit is for that. So my mother recently, she participates in a lot of autopsies. She stopped eating pork because it was just too similar to human And you know, I

think that it's interesting how people come to these conclusions. But I would say that whenever we start with an argument that's just like, here's name a thing that makes humans, it's already a little ridiculous, which can be okay for a thought experiment, but I find it maybe not as useful because it will

sort of stop at a thought experiment. I don't know what are your thoughts stand well, When Plato set out to define a human being and announced that the answer was a featherless biped Diogenes quite famously went to Plato's school and presented a plucked chicken and said, behold a man, right. And so I so Chase knows me, Chase. We've had conversations. Chase. You know, I'm a ve in same way as you. You know, we have very similar ideas of animal, you know, treating animals right. And so

I think this is a great tool to get people started. And I imagine that's your intention, is a tool to get people started think about the traits in which we actually make our decisions right, And I think for that purpose

it's a great conversation starter. Of course, I don't think your intention is this, but if anybody is trying to, you know, seriously suggest you know, obviously, to construct an entire moral foundation off of just using this particular method, there might be, you know, some additional thought that would be put into it. And and again I'm not claiming this is what you

are saying is what is to happen. I just think obviously, as Sophia point out, there may be some limitations, but it is a good starting point. I do think examining, particularly in animal ethics, what makes human beings so much more sort of you know above reproach when it comes to the decisions we make and in how we decide to eat things versus other beings. There is something to be said about that. There is there is pause to be had, but it's a tail as all the time trying to do this

whole, you know, figuring out the basics through through trait identification. Right, anyway, I guess that's my thoughts. Chase, what do you think? Yeah, And just to wrap up real quick, I guess yeah. One thing I would say is, yeah, if if you know a burning building, you know it's happening, and it's two individuals in that building, and it's you know, either a puppy. I can only say one,

it's a puppy or Hitler. I'm gonna save the puppy in that mat sure one case where like species ain't got nothing to do with it because the puppyin't gonna have somebody, you know. But and then the last but but I'd love to talk to you guys more on discord in your ACA the atheist community or no APIs community of Discord. The ACD on discord is going to be a fun chat afterwards that people should join that. And I would just encourage

people to watch the documentary called Dominion with Joaquin Phoenix. It's on YouTube for free. Dominion on YouTube. All righty, thank thanks so much, Chase. Appreciate you chiming into the show. Go ahead, let's go, and uh yeah it's I. I. I again have had conversations with other folks in what I would call the skeptic community that make absolutely terrible arguments against veganism on my account or at least protections of animal rights in some capacity, and

I've heard some better criticisms. But you know, ultimately I got to the position that I did because I really did try to explore this stuff and I found that this is like one of those topics that people are just very uncomfortable talking about that. Being we have a capacity to decide not to eat the

things that we do, how much do we follow through with that? So I think that that's totally reasonable, and like, if I'm honest about it, which I suppose I should be about all things when we're you know, seeking what is true. I haven't really gotten as into it as I know I could, simply because there's I guess, lots of different issues and we

all pick out different paths or what's the most important to us. But I have this maeaking suspicion that I would feel more obligated to change some of my lifestyle than I'm currently ready to, which is a terrible thing to say. And just be like, I know that's probably you know, even if I wouldn't be a full vegan, Like I know that there's probably more to that, like going that direction than I have. Sure, Yeah, which is

why I love the thought experiment. I'm like, be uncomfortable, but I am like how many Christians would say the same thing about being an atheist? Right if you have to is you know discover hey this thing isn't true. Oh well, that's going to make finding new friends awkward. That's going to make the communities I volunteer with a lot more awkward. That's going to make

a lot of things more difficult. You know, the implications of it in my life are hard, and I'm not able to take that on yet, you know, definitely parallel, I think, yeah, but it's an interesting thought. Oats. We are about to finish things up. Just wanted to say thanks again to everybody that donated. Thanks again to everybody that one more super chat you should throw in there. Well, we get that super chat in there real quick. It's from nash. We gave two dollars. Canadian

said, what a great show today. Good job you guys, Thank you so much. That's so nice. Let's give some quick love rings, uh to everybody out there. On the count of three, I'm gonna blast my love rings. Ready, one, two, three, There we go. It's delayed. The lover rings had to travel through the internet waves and sometimes they get caught up in the cables. So thank you, thank you for those lover rings. The prompt this week is what's a good response to Jesus

loves you? And uh give your comments for that. I'm very interested to see what people will say about that. Particular prompt if you want to hang out with folks on the discord, there's a tired out CC slash ACD discord. That's the link to go to the fan run discord. Uh. And with that announcement down, I think that's everything I have to say, Sophia, was there anything else you want to chime in before before I wramp it

up? No, I think you've got it handled. Okay. Well, if you don't believe, this is your community and we appreciate you being here. If you do believe, we don't hate you, I'm just not convinced. Thanks again, everybody, have a good one. Bye bye. We want the truth, So watch Truth Wanted Live Friday at seven pm Central. Visit tiny dot CC slash y t tw and call into the show at five one two nine two four two, or connect to the show online at tiny dot CC slash call tw