Talk Heathen 08.11 with Sofia Spina and Jimmy Jr.

Let's talk about some of God's latest self appointed messengers on Earth and the Internet. Tradwives. Now, tradwives are women who believe that God tells them to stay at home and treat their husbands like children when they are not being breadwinners while they stay home and pop out babies like ping pong balls. Tradwives provide a happy face to a growing movement of women who believe that the most Godly thing to do is participate in their own oppression. Now, don't get me

wrong. If women are happy to stay home and that's the lifestyle that they want, awesome. It's the presentation that this is all women are good for that is the problem. Women like me who get married older, who don't stay home, who talk to my husband like he's an actual person, are assumed to be used up and unhappy because of feminism, and they like returning

to their take on God will free me from these worries. What they actually are advocating for is freeing me from my mind, from my ambitions, from my opinions, from critical thought, and from my identity. And if that's the kind of freedom that the Bible advocates more, then I think I'm good. But if you think I should stay in the kitchen and make tradwife videos instead of upsetting people online with atheism, then call in because the show is

starting now. All right, what a wonderful, wonderful intro. Hello, folks, thank you for tuning in theists, atheists and everybody else whoever you are, wherever you are out there, you could be anywhere, but you're here with us. Today is March seventeenth, twenty twenty four. I am your host, Jimmy Junior, and joining me today is the wonderful Sophia Spina. Sophia, how are you doing today? I'm doing pretty all right. Actually a good day to be an atheist. Yeah, that was a wonderful,

wonderful cold open. And your hair looks wonderful as well. You've done something different. It's like we're reddish and it actually looks better on the screen than it does in real life. So you know, I'm really enjoying this moment. Like with tradwives, it's really easy to look better on the screen than it is, you know, to actually show your life. So yeah, yeah, so tradwives. Huh, so tell me a little bit about

that is what is this thing called tradwives? You. You and I have spoke about it briefly in the past, but but now's the time we want to get We want to get callers on here to let us know what it is they think about women and their religion. So you had a good idea, I had a good idea. Oh yeah, my tradwife only fans. That was my I was sort of joking that I should, I should think

about doing that because it would just be so flagrant. But yeah, So tradwives are kind of a growing movement online, and I think that they're one

of those movements that's sort of soaking up the controversy that they're creating. But they'll talk about how like, don't tell the feminists, but I love cooking for my family, which is always interesting because it's like, I mean, so do I and I'm a gobblas Even so, it's this very narrow vision of what traditional gender roles are that doesn't really date back further than the nineteen

fifties, but neither apparently does some of the modern Christian imagination. And so what I'm supposed to do as a wife and mom who is capable of breeding is that I'm supposed to be home. I'm supposed to make everything as simple as possible for my bread whin her husband. I think it doesn't go discussed as often. How men are also treated like they're basically infants who can't do anything for themselves in this kind of movement, because you're supposed to make everything

perfect, nothing upsetting. It's this very very strict kind of way of living. And yeah, men are just supposed to be coddled unless they're at work. So it also includes the baby boys, the women who talk softly to all of their men folk because they can't be upset. That kind of the fundy baby voice thing comes out a lot with chradwives as well. You're supposed to be a child forever, but a child with boobs who takes care of everything in the house. Weird. Weird, It is so weird. Yeah,

else is weird. I love cooking for my family too, and I'm not a woman, so yeah, maybe maybe I don't want you some hair. And then you're also right, Sophio, you had to stick the knife and twist it, didn't you Those those those days are over all right, relatively inviting people on the show to talk about how I should be in the kitchen and doing like other things. So yeah, I'm sorry, I'm yeah,

and not making fun of men's hair. I mean that's know your place, will you No, just kidding, just kidding, Now, this is great. I'm so happy to be working with you again. It's been about a month and you know we're back. So we have a great show that

we're going to be doing today. And I just want to remind everybody that Talk Heathen is a product of the Atheist Community of Boston, a five to one C three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical sinking, excuse me, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation of religion and government. We're a live call in show and we have lines open, so get your calls in at five to one two nine nine one nine two four

two or from your computer at tiny dot cc slash call thh. And while we do have lines open, we also have callers, so you better get your calls in before our lines fill up on you and you lose your chance. Before we get to that, though, I do want to take this time to cover our Talk Heathen to Me segment. The question of the Week from last week was let's see what did we ask what's something God stole credit for? And here are our top three answers. So number three goes to

Magansburg nine four sixty five. God took credit for fixing a problem that he created. I mean, yeah, Sophie, I don't know how much time you got, but we could probably do a whole season on that, you know, let alone a whole show or a question of the week. So this idea that God gave us sin right or created evil and then punishes us for it, or gave us free will and then punishes us for exercising it, make whatever avenue you want. I mean, how do you argue your

way around it? It just doesn't make any sense. I don't know. I think that one of the biggest arguments that I heard when I was a Christian, for it was that God doesn't create some but he allowed it. He allowed evil to exist, which to me is kind of like saying, like I didn't beat up that guy, but I just sort of let it happen, you know, And it's this very fine distinction. Yeah, that

tries to absolve God there. You know. I have to say this too because this just reminded me of it, and it's like my favorite quote. Ever, so the great former ACA host Tracy Harris once said, if I had the power, or if I saw a child being abused and I had the power to stop it, I would And that's the difference between me and your God. And I thought that was so profound and that I see that everywhere. But that is like one thing people really took away from from her

her work. So yeah, I don't know. God created certainly a lot of problems and likes to take credit for fixing them. But number two, Blake Walker five nine five four, what has God stolen? What has God stolen credit for chlamydia? It all started with a burning bush. That that is excellent. That is excellent, a little bit a little bit graphic, But thank you very much, Blake Walker. Sophia, what do you think

about that one? I love cruse shocking humor, Like I mean, I'm going to just made it an only Chadwin's only fans joke, Like I think it's great. I have a sense of humor of a sixth grader at most, So good on you. If Moses only knew that in like three to four thousand years somebody would be comparing his God to a sexually transmitted disease because of a burning bush. I think he would have he would have made up

a completely different story. I don't know. I mean it makes me think of all of the different STDs that probably did exist throughout the Bible that we never heard. Yeah, So, like what if Moses actually had chomydia? Like it's possible. It's possible that, Like, I mean, we just wouldn't know. The characters who suffer with infertility in the Bible, did they get an STD somehow, Like we wouldn't know, Like, but that's one of the possible consequences. So I yeah, it's impossible. Sorry, yeah,

it's possible. Moses clydia. Clydia, excuse me, chlamydia. Clamydia was so bad that it just drove him into a stupor where he hallucinated and thought he saw a burning bush. You know. Yeah. Al Capone, the famous gangster, died from chlymydia, like infected his brain. It was weird. Yeah, yeah, I didn't know it could do that. Clymydia did what the government could not. Yeah, number one. Shane Wilson seven nine ninety four. What did God steal credit for my ex's orgasms? Wow,

all right, Oh amazing. Okay, yeah, yeah, that's good. I just feel like I have this insight into their relationship now that I don't know that I needed. But I do also kind of enjoy like I guess he was doing what he was supposed to be doing, so so good for him, I know. Good job. All right, Well those are great answers. I really had a fun time reading those, Thanks folks. The propt for next week is what is God's idea of a perfect woman?

Answer your best answer below in the video comments, and next week we will reveal the top three answers. But let me get your answer, Sophia, what do you think God's idea of a perfect woman is? Well, the God of the Bible would like a blow up doll. But if I were to pick it would just be me. Oh, Sally, I mean why not? Like I feel like after you leave the church as a lady, you need to work on your confidence and so just be like, yeah,

God's perfect woman is me? Why not? Well that's that's good because you know you are a married woman and if you're any if you are anything like a trad wife, you'll treat your husband like a god and submit to him. So yeah, you would be. You would be his ideal woman, wouldn't you. I mean yeah, well except for the fact that this coffee was made and brought to me by my husband. I oh, you know, messed out on that. So see, he's not the old man out

there that likes to cook and provide for his wife and family. I love that. You know, you know, we we belong in the kitchen too. All right. Well yeah, that's a that's a really good answer. So, uh, like I said, folks, let's get your answers in. We will read them next week. The top three answers. What is God's idea of a perfect woman? A perfect woman? Excuse me? So we have some callers on the line super excited about that. I want to before we get started say thank you to our crew. Can we go to

the crew camp please and just show all these hard working people. Yes, all right, so here they are supporting us. You know, they were on way before the show even started. You know, oh hey, so we were, we were on They were on like hours before we even got here. And you know, they're making this thing work, making it go, and uh they're going to continue doing a great job throughout the show.

We've got an after show that's going to be run by even more contributors to the ACA, making sure that you know our mission is upheld and we get to interact with our viewers and fans, if you will. But looking forward to that, So thank you, crew. I want to jump into a call, and I would like to take a call from Michael Hee him from Tennessee. Michael says that progressive excuse me, progressive Christians versus right wing Christians. So he doesn't say that, let me rephrase. He wants to talk

about progressive Christians versus right wing Christians. And so I am excited to hear that. Take Michael, you are on with Jimmy and Sophia. What can we do for you today? Michael? All right? So Michael, I can't hear you right now. Sophia, can you hear anything? No ue, Unfortunately cool. I'm going to return Michael to the queue and maybe you know, you can work on whatever that is that's going on. Instead. I have somebody else that I want to talk to. So we have an

atheist named Sinaj, and Sinaj is from New York. Hear him trying to navigate to my Jehovah witness trying to navigate to my Jehovah witness relative. Not sure what he means by that, but uh, Sinaj, you are on with Jimmy and Sophia. How can we help you today? All right? So I'm not getting anything from Sonaj either, So I'm not either. I'm starting to wonder if the problem. I'm starting to wonder myself. So I am going to return snag and ask Sinage to hold on because we're going to

get back to you as soon as we get a chance to. But right now, Sophia, you know, I just wanted to kind of talk about this topic that we you know, we're discussing. You know, I asked you, hey, what do you want to talk about? I thought it was a good idea what you had. Let's let's keep it with women and religion. Right, We're still we're still in uh you know, we're celebrating women's rights right and exactly exactly, and it's important to kind of get this

get this message out. I think my personal opinion is that, uh, you know, women, you do not have to abide by what these books, what these ancient dogmas tell you. And it's just so frustrating to me that there are some people out there that have been I think indoctrinated, you know, to the point that they feel like they're being wrong by being a little bit selfish. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I don't know, what do you think? Yeah, it's interesting. I spend

very too much time on the internet. I'm not like fully terminally online, but a little bit. And there was a woman who posted a video the other day just she's a mom. She's just cooking content kind of stuff, and she was saying that her children eating leftovers, her husband can deal, but she's making something she really wants for dinner tonight, even though none of them like it. And it was Enchilada's. And the thing that my mostly

thought was who doesn't like Enchilada's? Yeah, right, anyway, And so many of the comments weren't necessarily by religious or irreligious people, like I don't know what their affiliation was, but they were talking about how selfish she is and how well she should have just made that for her lunches and give everybody else what they want, like wait, wait for your divorce, because you know you're letting your husband starve apparently, And this was all over her once

in a while making a dish she really liked, because she thought it was important for moms to remember that you actually get to pick things you like too,

and that that can be okay. And so even if it's disconnected from religion explicitly, we still have this sort of cultural morass in which we put women in this situation where if they do anything that isn't exactly what this tradwife essentially would be doing, then they're being selfish, then they're being unkind, and we don't hold others to this same standard, Like, you know, the idea of husband's being asked, when's the last time your wife cooked something

that she really likes or you cooked for her, that's not nearly as common. I'm fortunate in that I do have a husband who loves to cook, and you know, I get to be the beneficiary of that. But even these ideas pervade so much of our lives that even in something as innocuous as Enchilado as they come up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So we're very much ingrained in like a view of patriarchy, and I'm not sure why that

still exists. You know, we have done so much work I think as a society as a species really to kind of identify that things don't need to be so divided. You know, a much more egalitarian approach is actually much better for the greater good of society. So when I was studying my master's degree, I did a research paper on gender roles and how religion relates to a nation's economy. Okay, and what I found, thank you, Yeah, what I found was that the more of a female population that is employed

in a given country, the better economic standing that country has. So, and those countries that had high female employment were the least religious ones, right,

so, or the least orthodox, I should say. So when you have a country like Italy or Spain, you know, these are very orthodox religious countries, but they have very little compare to the United States female employment, and thus their economy is kind of lower on the ladder where the United States, Uh, we have a large portion of our female workforce employed. Uh. And we're a little bit less orthodox, even though we're technically a

very religious country. We are. We are very independent minded, right like we are. We care about the individual and not about the group, if you will. And so everybody's out there trying to do what's best for them and being a little selfish. And you know, over the past few decades we've seen that increase as well to women joining more of the workforce uh and that has helped our economy along quite a bit. So I don't know that

was that was something that I found interesting. You know, we we we do a study of the most religious countries, and the ones where where women are not employed are weakest economically. You know, Saudi Arabia uh IS is pretty low economically, although they get they get a little bit of a boost from from their oil industry, and so there are some caveats to that.

But most of the religious super Islamic religious countries have very poor economies and almost you know, like twenty thirty percent range of women working, you know, as opposed to like sixty to seventy for the United States and other Western countries.

So I just thought that was interesting. I wonder if things like the tradwife movement also, as you mentioned that this, you know, recently we've had more of an uptick in women going to work after I know, the pandemic really hit women harder employment wise than it did men because they ended up

staying home. But I wonder if the tradwif thing is sort of a reaction to that, this idea that more women are working and so as in this paradigm, if you're speaking from like a tradwife perspective, you would see that as part of the destruction of the family and that women aren't in the home and that that's going to disadvantage children, and you know, it kind of

goes around like that. So it's interesting to see these sort of anti feminist movements arise when you end up with women progressing further into politics or into the job market, you know. Yeah, so I think that's a valid claim

or a valid point rather. You know, I think even in our own country, we've kind of seen a turn toward conservatism recently, you know, and there is this idea that maybe the country is going in a direction that the other half of the country doesn't want to go in, and it's kind of caused them to be more boisterous and speak out louder and grasp on to these beliefs even harder. And that I think has been pretty typical over the last I don't know, eight to ten years in our own country. But

yeah, go ahead, go ahead. I think with social movements It's very much like the laws of motion. For every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction, and so when we talk about things like moving forward in a more progressive direction, there's always going to be a backlash. I think it's hard to watch sometimes because the more we pull one direction, the more divisive

backlash can be. And when we talk about the issues we have, like within families, about political or religious divides now being really dramatic, those can be extremely difficult. But I think there's maybe some hope in realizing that we've been through this a lot before. Whenever there's a movement, there's a pullback, and still as a country and as people, we survive. Yeah,

well, that's an excellent segue. I'm glad we had this little chat because we are going to get back to our callers and take Michael, who is a theist from Tennessee who wants to talk about progressive versus right wing Christians. And so, without further ado, we are putting Michael on. Michael, you are on with Jimmy and Sophia. How can we help you today? Yeah, Michael, I'm sorry, man, we are not getting you. We are still not getting you. So you know what I am going to

return you back to the queue. We have to figure this thing out. But in the meantime, we've got some screenshots and some other content that we want to get to. And so what I want to do is ask the crew to prepare to load some of our content that we have, and I want to start with if we can, crew, can we play the voicemail? Can we play the most recent voicemail from this week? You don't have

the Holy Spirit of Jesus enough to protect you. You've got it in your belly, but that can be removed and will be removed if and take the Omni when Jesus says, I do not know you wif you're removed from and in that way, Jesus shall kill you when he removes that pearl of great Well, that's the only part of you that Satan couldn't. The rest of your minds are, even to now this day, so corrupted more subtly by that same voice that said in your thought, I would turn it and toss

you violently like a ball, and don't tell the vision. So no, you do not have the free thoughts. A matter of fact, you know that Jesus. That's why you blocked me speaking on your show, on your rail to the Omni. You might want to get you some matching white blue beats when the Leviathan China comes knocking on your door. That way you can pretend you're a Buddhist. WEA sorry, the China part came out of nowhere. I was always taught you never get to the conclusion and introduce new information.

Uh so, I mean he was talking about how horrible we were, but then we have then we have to answer to China. I don't know how that how that matters. But the Holy Spirit, so we don't have it, but we may have it in our belly, we may have it in Yeah, the most the best I can make out what he's saying is that, like the Holy Spirit is life force and how you die is the final removal of the Holy Spirit because Jesus didn't know you somehow, So like

that's the animating force of life, I guess is his theory. There's zero substantiation for anything like that in the Bible. I feel like, unless I'm wildly missing it, I cannot come up with anything. So it really sounds like he sort of invented this this thing to tell us about our our holy spirit bellies. Yeah, I don't know what he's talking about, as far as we should get us are so matching blue and whites. Man a lot

going on there. It's really it's really unfortunate, you know, because this would have been a perfect opportunity for him to call in and explain exactly, you know, like what it is he believes why we should care and what he's talked about, because I can't really decipher a whole lot from that voicemail, you know, And if he could just call and I would have the have it right out of the horse's mouth and we'd be able to get down to the bottom of things. But instead, you know, he kind of

sounds foolish. And I mean, Christians, is this the best you can do? Is that who You're gonna let us speak for you? You're gonna let that person kind of step up and defend your faith by talking about Jesus in our belly and dealing with China. I don't know. Yeah, I feel like this is an instance in which somebody spends a lot of time in their own head and with people who agree with them, and so then they go to say it out loud and no one who is an already part of

that can really follow it. Yeah, so well test run these ideas. Yeah yeah, really get somebody to kind of to your ideas off of. But without further ado. I hear third time is the charm in some situations, And Michael from Tennessee, we're pulling you back up. I'm hitting the talk button and I literally am looking at you in my conversation. So Michael, tell me that you could hear us. Yes, yes, hey, thanks for having me. Michael. You know what happens night? All right?

Maybe God Israel and he was trying to, you know, interrupt our show, but I don't know, it seems like we got we got through, we got through it. I'm just kidding, Michael. What's up? Man? Thanks, thanks for thanks for your patience. How can we help you? Yeah? Yeah, so I've listened. I actually stumbled onto y'all's

podcasts recently, and I've listened to some other discussions like this. Something that's always kind of struck me and frustratingly is that when Christians seemed to come on these shows or any shows, they're usually what we might call the right wing Christians, and they're the ones who are trying to argue that there is proof for God in some sort of way, and of course you guys are often

arguing there is not proof for God. But there's this whole other section of Christianity, of this belief that might be called the progressive or the progressive left, or any number of things like that, that don't interpret to the Gospel the same way, and it come at it at a very different way.

And I don't feel like that voice is really ever being heard. So of course people think Christians are frankly a little nutty because they're you know, they come from that right wing side that might more accurately be described as a little bit more legalistic in their interpretation, if that makes sense. Yeah, I'd like to offer that there is a whole other way of looking at it.

Okay, well, I want to and and Michael, I really appreciate you calling in, and I'm not trying to I don't want to suppress what you're saying, but I'm gonna stave away from uh or stave off from calling right

wing people nutty. I don't want to characterize everybody that way. I think people people that have conservative views, you know, might have valid reasons for some of their views and maybe they're not nutty, but I can tell you that I've taken some nutty calls and so there there I can agree with you.

But yeah, I agree. I mean there is a there is an untapped kind of opinion I think, or point of view from people who consider themselves more left, more liberal, that don't often speak out about their Christianity. And I think that conservatives are often given the title of well Christian or pigeonholed to Christians or pigeonholed to being conservative. But there is a large population

of liberals and progressives that are very much Christian. You know, I'm in New York City and I am in a very liberal city where there are there is Christianity everywhere, So it shouldn't be assigned to kind of one group, if you will, or another. But it is very much all across the board, touches all kinds of people. But yeah, they're a different perspective.

So what what is the perspective that you wanted to put forth? What do you have to say that's different from some of these quote unquote nutty callers you might hear us take? Yeah, and yeah, like you said, I apologize to that certainly. I have actually have a respect for most of my more some of the right wing side people. It's just the ones that are, like you said, you take some callers that are They say some things that you go hang on that doesn't make any sense, and it's because

they're trying to argue logically something that should be. They're trying to argue it like a scientist would, and you can't do that with faith. It really for me, I was agnostic until I was twenty one. It happened in college for me where I went to I just kind of got an itching to understand a little bit more. My campus minister was very much into astronomy and

we talked about science a lot. And what I discovered in that environment was a group of people who were very much dedicated to one another, loved each other, supported each other great deal of compassion. Did not matter who you were, what walk of life, or how strange or different, or you know, how much you thought that you were on the outskirts of of of our society, of our culture. You were welcome in our in our place, and that kind of devotion and love and support. I saw how that

listed us up and made us better people. And I don't think anybody would deny that that's possible. We just we attribute that to the presence of God, Okay, And it's you know, it's not necessarily because of evidence. It's because of a of a feeling that we got. Well, I understand that, And I don't that sort of thing. Yeah, I don't go

ahead, I want to I want to ask you something. Okay, So, in with respect to the topic of today's show, Sophia and I, you know, we wanted to talk about women in religion, and I want to know what you have to say about women should keep silent in churches. They are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission. So that's that's First Corinthians fourteen thirty four through thirty five. And so I get it. You know, a loving and expect and accepting sect or or point of

view when it comes to Christianity is what you represent. But how do you reconcile this newfound view with commands from essentially your God and your deity or the people interpreting his commands saying that women are unequal to men. The way that we reconcile that is by recognizing that fallible people were trying their best to interpret God's message within the context of their times and the context of their times.

Frankly, we're pretty sexist, and there are certain things where you read and go, yeah, when Paul wrote that, I mean, Paul has a reputation among progressive Christians being fairly misogynistic in a number of times. And there's a lot of problems with some of the things that he wrote. But what was he really trying to get after with the whole of that book is really

what we focus more on. I can't speak specifically to that, and that's a whole other thing, but that's how we reconcile some of those things when you read it and go, that's just crazy what he's writing. I mean, there's tons of things like that. There's that women should stay silent. There's the whole Our whole concept is that we want to empower people to be their very best at whatever they at, whoever they were, at, the person that God created and be if we're willing to allow our women to I

shouldn't say it that way. That sounds terrible. Apologies. I think you understand. I think we understand what you're trying to say, and I want to bring Sophia into comments so far on what you've had to say. Yeah, so I have like a few different thoughts. I'm sure you'd like them, probably not as much when I think of I really, first of all,

I appreciate actually looking at the Bible within context. That's cool, because you're right, those were very misogynistic times oftentimes in which these were said. And I used to be evangelical. I led Bible studies and then it sort of became a more liberal or progressive Christian for a while. But I took a lot of theology classes. I did a lot of like I love contextual

criticism, Biblical exeges is that sort of thing. And the more I got into the root of things like what Paul would say or what the Bible was in fact saying, the more it did feel like, oh, it actually is really trying to say what it means here, It is really trying to It doesn't shy away from the sexism within it, even if we can look

back and say that was contextual. And so for me it became about I guess if we want to just sort of take the vibe of the good parts of Christianity, then we can say that it can be more all around supportive of women, But we have to leave the Bible pretty far behind to do that. And I eventually was like, well, if I'm doing that, what's the point If I'm already kind of not really believing the Bible and taking it at face value? Or the more I get into these stories and get

to what they are really saying, it still seems pretty sexist. It still seems pretty rough. Am I just leaving the Bible behind and taking God or taking the parts that I like? How do you respond to that kind of feeling of when you're sort of able to pick and choose the parts make you feel like it fits into the faith that you have. Well, that's a completely fair question, and we have. Everybody that I went to seminary with we struggled with that very thing. And to be clear, lots of women

in my seminary. My two best friends were pastors. That's why I moved to Knoxville with them. They came up here and I came up here with

them so they could be pastors. What I would probably say is that I feel like when you are doing that, you're also reducing the Gospel and the majesty of the gospel, the beauty of the gospel to these few things that are sexist, and you're focusing on that as opposed to what even Paul what he was trying to accomplish, ultimately doing it in a fallible way, but ultimately what he was trying to accomplish, which was to list up these churches

and encourage them to be a community that's loved and supported each other. I don't agree with a couple of the ways that he said to do it, but for the most part I do. So there's a context that I believe very much in. Yeah, I think once I stopped reading with the pre assumption that you kind of had, because I did come with it thinking, okay, but in general, this is good, right, and I believe

in a good God. So the vallible human thing maybe they didn't set up a little bit, but on the whole, when I left that assumption behind, it didn't look nearly like the beautiful message I had believed that it was when I started reading it, for just more like an at surface value thing. So it's interesting because I saw, I do want to offer one other small thing that just occurred to me alone, as lie to kind of illustrate the issue that we had with Paul. You have the Pauline literature, and

then you have the Gospels, thefore Gospels. And I actually read a thing once that I thought was really beautifully worded. It said that we needed to start progressive Christians, all Christians needed to start viewing Paul through the lens of the Gospels and not view the Gospels through the lens of Paul. And basically that's saying that Paul was flawed and we need to stop kind of focusing on his interpretation of everything, but rather see his interpretation through the love and grace

of Christ rather than the other way around. Well, you're giving you're doing that's very profound. Yeah, well I think I think you're Otherwise, you're giving a pretty horrible person a pass, right. I mean you you said that Paul has a lot of things that he talks about that you disagree with. He was misogynistic, he was horrible to people, horrible to women,

and you know, he did a lot of horrible things. But because he agrees with the things that you agree with, And forgive me, I'm not trying to sound like I'm attacking you, but let me paraphrat let me let me generalize here. You know, it just it seems to me like, well, you know what, I don't like most of the things or some

of the things that Paul did. He really doesn't deserve to get a pass for these atrocities, right, But he's saying something I like, So I'm just gonna forget about those other things and consider him credible in this one area. But you got to take the whole person at face value here. You know, why should we believe Paul or or give any kind of credence to

Paul? And in the same respect, I would ask you why should we give credence to the Bible when it lists all of the atrocities that it has, right, whether it comes down to Abraham forcing his servant to have his child or a lot, you know, offering his two daughters to a mob of people for them to do whatever they want. You know, we're talking

about women here, but it doesn't just stop stop with women. I mean there are there are all kinds of atrocities, you know, committing genocide, keeping the young virgins for yourselves, but murder all the women who have known a man right or God, destroying the entire planet, killing hundreds of millions

of people, or yeah, hundreds of millions of people. You know, why do I have to accept some of the Bible when it's based on this really this really outdated but also far reaching if we in terms of history, something that goes back. I just atrocity after atrocity, after hate after genocide, uh, one by one by one? Is this message that you're talking about, this good message is resting on a foundation of hatred, you know, That's the way that I see it. And now, why should I

give Paul a pass? Or why should I give the rest of the Bible a pass just because it's got a few good things in it? That's that's clearly okay. Question ask Here's what I'm going to say. I've got I can remember the three of them now. Of everything that you said, how I wanted to respond. First of all, I don't think that when after Paul became a Christian, I don't really I don't consider him as doing these

atrocious things. I think that it was a terrible view how much he wanted to demean women, and the fact that he seemed to support slavery because he didn't denounce it in another one of his book. His books there, but he is a product of his time and the views of those times, which were atrocious. So what I look at is not those specific things where I sit there and go, you are flawed because of this. I'd rather I look at what is the ultimate point that he's trying to get with all of

this, and he's just doing it in a bad way. So you can I think that you're justified in in that question. But I'm I'm going to say that he was a product of his times, and I have to read the Bible in a certain way. Here's the thing. Here's that which leads me to my second point. I feel when you talk like that and again in the same way, all due respect, I'm not trying to attack you.

I'm just trying to illustrate this. Hopefully I'm hitting on something. I feel like you're doing the very same thing that you get frustrated when other Christians calling and do, which is that you're taking everything very literally. You're saying, well, hold on all right, therefore they let me you know what

I mean I want to address I want to address point one first. Okay, So God, if God is the moral superiority in our universe, right that he owes us better than just saying, well, you know what, this is how things happened, but between fifteen hundred and two thousand BCE, so we're just gonna let it slide. Slavery was always wrong, right, Slavery is wrong now, and theoretically it should have been always wrong, especially

in the eyes of God. But God did nothing to stop that. The rape of a or sexual assault I should say hate that R word forgive me, they're probably gonna bleep that out. But the sexual assault of women or young girls, that's always wrong, right, at least it should have been in the eyes of God. But he let that slide. There are so many things where you can point to, well that was just the way that

they did things back then. Well that's fine if but that doesn't offer it any kind of majesty that you're talking about, that doesn't give it any kind of credibility. You know, if this is the all powerful, all kind God, all loving God, that he owes us better than genocide, he owes us better than you know, some of the things that I just talked about. And by the way, you know, you you had to when you talk about Paul, you talk about Paul when he turned to Christianity,

But what about before that? I mean, Paul was awful before that, you know, And I get it that that message goes to show you, well, even God does good works through through people who are considered lost, and you know, you're never kind of uh, you're never kind of out of the way of God, and there's always a chance this and that and Christianity should be the way for you. I mean that kind of a particular

statement there. But but what I want to say is that it. Yeah, one second, you can't just say that's the way things were done back then. God should have known better. God we deserve better if this is our moral our moral compass. But go ahead. So the way in which you are setting up the nature of God, I'm not gonna be able to get a whole lot into this. I don't understand it well enough to explain it all. I know, you know the basics of what I feel.

But is the same way that again, that the right when Christians who call in would set up that nature of God. We we don't really view it that way. And the fact that Paul was a horrible person before you I don't remember exactly how you said it, but you know something to the effect that we can't ignore that. The whole premise from what I get when I read the Gospel is that we're all pretty bad people Periodicy, Oh we're not.

I'm not a bad person, right, But well, here's what I'm getting at is that is that we I interpret that a little bit differently than you may have. Generally speaking. Not always there's there's a time for certain selfish behavior, but most of what we would call sin is usually when you're trying to serve yourself as opposed to serving others and helping others and lifting others

up. And that is really what it comes down to, is that is that once we I'm not gonna say or saved because that I believe that happens two thousand years ago. It's not something we do. But once we kind of acknowledge that, we try to move towards this idea of being less selfish and more interested in so one another serving to management. Oh I have it, fella, man, Jimmy, you want to go and then go?

No, go ahead, and Sophia, please, I am getting some hard I guess in therapy to speak counter transferance here with you, because I have made these exact arguments, and when I was looking at it, I realized how much I was straining to reinterpret the Bible to fit what I thought were

the good parts of it. And when I finally gave myself permission to not have to justify my belief all the time and actually look at the Bible for what it was fully, I first of all, is a tremendous relief intellectually to not have to do kind of mental gymnastics to make all the Bible work out in a way that is actually positive seeming. But I also I realized for myself, if I was picking and choosing the Bible this much, why

pick the Bible at all? And I think so. I hear a lot of things that I have said, even when it comes to the character of God and things like that, like, well, I'm not sure about that, but here's this positive thing I take from it. And I absolutely believe that you can take positive things from the Bible. But for me, it lost the feeling of majesty as soon as I felt I didn't have to defend the feeling of majesty anymore. On that, I have two recommendations for you,

if you're open to that. I don't know sure, maybe okay. One is a song actually called Sympathy for Paul by Derek Webb, who is a I think left meaning Christian, and it's sort of about like what would Paul think of his role in the church today? And I would be really curious to know what you think of that song, because I thought it was actually really interesting and pleasant to listen to. It's just a good song.

And the other thing I would I know that we don't have like a book club for callers, but I would like, I'm so curious to know what you would think of this. It's a book I have called White Too Long, and it's by Robert P. Jones. He is a more liberal Christian and he's writing about the legacy of white supremacy in America Christianity, and he talks a lot in the chapter Theology of White Supremacy about the habit of picking and choosing the Bible that people did to affirm what they were doing, and

how the modern church does the same thing. And so I would be really curious to know, like what you think of that and how you would draw a distinction between picking and choosing in a way that is positive and doing it in this sort of negative way, or is it just that we're more enlightened culture now, So I would really love to know what you think of that. Actually, I'm throwing that out there. Can you give me those two names again, ma'am? Can you give me those two names again? Ah?

Ma'am? I love it. Yeah. Sympathy for Paul by Derek Webb is the song and then I'm gonna say, Quite too Long by Robert P. Jones. So Matthew, you could always go back to and scroll scroll back and see what we talked about. I just want to kind of summarize

everything that we've covered so far. You wanted to call in and give us a perspective of somebody that was a little bit more liberal, not maybe the more stereotypical right wing evangelical Christian, And I get it you think that, or I'm not going to say you think you are a testing that you know,

the more liberal Christians. At least the point of view that you take is that you really need to kind of focus on the good parts of what is coming out of Christianity, the overall message and really the idea is to work toward other people and not just be selfish, right so I really appreciate

that perspective. I want to say that while I don't see much of a difference right between that message and the message that any other Christian would get would give me, I do really appreciate the way that you came in honestly spoke with us and and you know, had a mature conversation and didn't yell and scream and do some of the things that you don't like hearing from other Christians, right, which maybe what prompted you to call in the first place.

But my problem is this, Matthew. It's that where do you decide what is good in the Bible and what is not, What is going to help your message, and what is going to diminish it. If we all stuck to the Bible, we would end up in prison for the things that the Bible tells us to do, or maybe even worse right, especially women, Women would be stoned to death for being married and then being found out that they weren't a virgin when they were married. Right. Men, That doesn't

happen to men, right, So there are some double standards there. But if we were to follow the Bible, it wouldn't be a good thing for us. So how do we decide what's going to be good, what's going to be bad, and do the bad things not discredit the good things? I think that they do. I think the bad things very much discredit the entire message. But more importantly, with all of the disagreements that Christians have not only with theists or excuse me, with atheists, but also with other

theists also between themselves. I think God owes us an explanation and we're just not getting that, and so we have to have these conversations, and we're happy to have them. Matthew, I really appreciate your call. I thought this was incredibly productive. I really liked your perspective, and I'm going to ask you to call back in the future. I think this was wonderful, but we are going to move on to some other callers, So yeah, that's going to do it for Matthew from Tennessee. Thank you so much,

Sophia. Any parting shots there, I mean just that it really reminds me so much of me, like I was this person, and I don't look back and say like it was bad that I was that person. Then I think it was part of my overall evolution into what I believe now, but it's almost hard to listen to someone strain the same way to make these arguments

and to stay attached. And maybe he doesn't experience it like that. Maybe that's just how I experienced it at the time, but I didn't even really realize it until looking back, how hard I was working to make these things

make sense. I think it's also a lot of the people in my life are still Christian, most by far, and many of them are progressive Christians, I suppose you'd say, And my frustration with them sometimes is that they're very willing to tell me that other Christians aren't like them or that they're different, but they're less willing to tell other Christians that. And so when I look at it, like, if you don't, yeah, if you don't want Christianity to be that, and I'm not, I have no idea if

this is what Michael does or not. Maybe he totally stands up to people in this way, but you can't just tell me about it. You have to go talk to other Christians about this. If this is your fight and it's not really with me, if you think they're corrupting the message of your God, they are the ones you need to tell, not me, so it is. It is interesting. I guess it brought up a lot for me. That's a particular call, you know. I want to say sorry

to Michael. I think I called him Matthew about three or four times. Maybe it's because he brought up the Gospels and I was just, you know, fixed talking about Matthew. But I don't know. Michael, Michael, thank you if you're still watching, thank you for your patience, Like, oh my gosh, he's great. And I truly do apologize for giving you the wrong name. I hate that. But anyway, Sophia, we are at the time where we are going to read off the top five patriots.

Do you want to take this one? Sure? All right? We have patrons everyone decided up to be one. They're amazing. Our top five patrons are Dingleberry Jackson because of course, oops, all Singularity, dark Wolfy games I think that's a new one to me. I love that Dark Wolfy games Yep, devar Valjean and okay, I never say this one correctly, so sorry about that. Cale. You might need to help me. Helvetti Levi hel Vetty. I think if you put it an Italian accent, it must

be easier or something. So that was Italian. I was supposed to be Irish. I'm like super Mario Italian maybe like so that that's where I went with it. Yeah, And then honorable mention to Russell Jensen, thank you for having an easy name to say, beck Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you so much for contributing to us on Patreon. Folks, you know we have the Patreon platform as well. You should go on, you

know, get a membership. You can access all of our content. You can send us some messages and we do have or some some donations or whatever. We do have other Patreon exclusive content coming up too as well, so you might want to check that out. But yeah, Dark Wolfie Games spoken to dark Wolfy Games in the discord several times, but it looks like he knocked out Left in the Leaves. I'm gonna shout out Left in the Leaves because Left in the Leaves has been on consistently for like, I don't know,

four months, but seems like he dropped off. So or she or they anyway, we are going to move to a different caller and we have Mattias. I think I think I'm saying that right in California. He him wants to respectfully present evidence for God. Well, I'm looking forward to it. Mattias. You are on with Jimmy and Sophia. How can we help you? Hello? Hey, I'm the Tias. Yeah, I'm Mattias. I am from Victorville. I'm calling in on and the adult institution. Right,

I'm not like a program. Right. We can say whatever we want freely. I'm going to ask you to just be professional and respectful. But I would like to know what your evidence for God is. For sure, my evidence for God. I think maybe you got this before, but I think it's in the sun and moon. You know, whenever you whenever you look outside, don't you see don't you see God's beauty at work? No? No, man, I don't Sophia, why don't you Why don't you

kick it off? I think again. When I was a Christian, I would read God into nature, I would read God into everything, And once I stopped putting myself in that mindset, I was able to be in awe of the world as it is without it needing to have some extraterrestrial meaning. I'm looking outside right now and I see like beautiful trees swaying and you know, kind of the foggy sky, which I love. But I see weather patterns that I'm able to make meaning out of. I don't see God there.

I know it's something that I'm putting into it, but it doesn't diminish it for me. I just do not see this as self evidence, you know, as like evidence for God. Well, yeah, I mean, Mattias, I just want to throw on there. I just want to throw on there. Okay, we have a sun and we have a moon, right, Why should we equate that with the deity when we know that the story of and I'm going to assume, are you a Christian? I'm going

to I'm making an assumption I'm Christian. Okay, okay, So the very basis for the creation of the universe, or the creation of our solar system, at least in the New test or excuse me, in the Old Testament, in Genesis said that the sun and the moon were contained inside of a dome. Well, we know that that's not true, right, So now that story completely falls apart. Why should I give any credit to God being associated with the sun in the moon. Because if God, God makes God

makes everything right, that's what we believe. And so if God makes, if God makes like the sun in the moon, then he all then he also brings on every other, every other disease. And how that's a huge leap though, So so I have to grant you. I will grant you one thing. Okay, Let's assume God creates the sun in the moon. How does that mean that he creates everything else? What he what? If

he's a god that just creates suns and moons? What I mean, how do you go from God created sun of the moon, so that must mean he creates everything else? Okay? Uh so now explain to me how you know that he created anything. Well, first of all, if he made sun and moons, then he'd be an AbTech. Second of all, I think that I think that out like our God, right, the Christian God makes and it makes every it makes everything. Right, It's not I guess

I'm using the sun and moon was a bad example, right. But I mean, if you just if you just walk out, if you just walk outside your yard, and if you look at all these miracles online, then you believe miracles online. Who on? I don't want to get too far. I know that you have something else you want to add. But we need to kind of address a couple of things. Right, So, you say that God creates sun in the moon. We have no proof of that. We have absolutely no proof of that, and the account that we do

have is incorrect. We know that the mechanics of how the universe and the solar system is set up do not fit the story that we were given by the founders of your religion. Right. Then you claim that because God can do one thing, he can do another, Well, how do you prove that? So now asking you to take a second step? Right, So, first we can't really prove the first step, but let's just grant it to you. So, now, how does he create everything? I mean,

you didn't give me an answer on that. How do you know that that makes sense? You know? And it's okay to say we don't know. I mean, I think a lot of people are really uncomfortable saying, well, I don't know how that happens. Therefore God, But really it's okay to say we don't know. We don't know a lot of things and maybe we never will. Uh. So there's two things right there. But I also want to ask you, you know about your God, the Christian God? Uh, what is the name of your god. Do you know

what that is? Yahweh? Yahweh. I think that Yahweh. So, so is there another name for your god besides Yahweh Jesus? Okay, all right, So so Yahweh. What if I told you that Yahweh was not the Christian or the Christian Judeo the Judeo Christian god that you think it was, and it actually is older than Judaism and it comes from a different part of the planet, would you believe me? Well, I'm not gonna lie.

I did not know that, you know, Pentecostalism and whatnot. You know, it's I'm learning something new every day, and oh hey, that's what we're here for. Man, I appreciate that you feel that way. Look, I want to tell you something. So Yahweh. The name Yahweh comes from ancient Mesopotamia, right, we're talking pre two thousand BC. Okay, so that's like five thousand years ago now, but earlier than that.

And Yahweh was the god of rain and the god of storms. Okay, so a group apparently, And you can match this up with the story of Abraham traveled to the med to the eastern Mediterranean, and what is called the Levant, where the Canaanites lived right in the land of Canan, probably probably better pronounced Kannonites, right, But in any case, we know that people traveled from Mesopotamia up the Euphrates River and into down into the Levant, because

we have ancient texts engraved in stone that say, hey, they were visitors from Mesopotamia that traveled this way. Very likely they brought their gods with them. So you know, it's it's feasible to say, well, the story of Abraham could be true in the sense that people migrated from Mesopotamia to the eastern Mediterranean, and they likely brought their gods with them. We see that all the time. And I have a book that I would like to recommend

to you. So it is called Ancient Mediterranean Civilizations, okay, and you can google it and it's by a it's written by a group. Yeah, I can't remember that, Captivating History. It's written by a group called Captivating History. And in that book you will read all about different civilizations around the Mediterranean. The Carthaginians, the Phoenicians, the Minoans, the Mycenians, the

Etruscans, the Romans, the Egyptians. They all shared their gods, and as one civilization traded with another, they gave their gods away and they were adopted. Right. So Poseidon, for example, Poseidon, the Greek god of the water, he actually started off as a Greek god of the underworld with the ancient Minoans. I mean, it's the oldest god that we know

of. He predates Zeus. In any case, what I'm trying to tell you is that, you know, like you said, as there's always something to learn, you might want to dig into what it is you actually believe and figure out if you actually believe it. You know, because there's a lot deeper history and you realize or maybe if you realize like I did, that these gods and religions are just made up by humans. You know, it's it's likely that we made them up to fit our own narrative, you

know, not the other way around. God didn't create us for some uh some higher purpose, but we in fact created them. I don't know. I'm sorry for my rants. I'm gonna throw it in there to you real quick. Yeah that. Oh sorry, did you have something you wanted to say with ts? I wanted to say that while while we can't exactly go out there and say God is right in front of us, you know,

like I'm never going to see him near my gas station. But if I meant that at that same at the same time, you can't really say that God is not out there. I mean I can't say, sorry, I can't say unicorns aren't out there either, like that. That's disproving something is much harder than proving it. And just because something we can't say that something

isn't there doesn't doesn't mean that it is true. I mean, it's true that maybe Santa's really good at hiding at the North Pole, maybe the Tooth Fairy is actually just really sneaky, maybe she's magical, maybe she's actually just a spirit. You can't say she's not. And so that's just sort of the lowest, lowest, lowest level of just you can't disprove it. And I kind of feel like, so far, what you've presented as an argument

for God is basically vibes. That you look at nature and its vibes tell you that there's a God and you think that that makes itself evident to others. Good for you, that's what your vibes give you. But that's really kind of what this amounts to it's just some vibes. Can I respectfully interject here? Go ahead. What I wanted to say was it was, first

of all, we know Santa and the tooth chairry is not real. For me, it was anecdotal evidence because my uncle dressed up as Santa and he tripped over those cords, you know, those little like Christmas cords, and

he shit his hands. So you don't want that, right, But you know what my anecdotal evidence, right, was the stories that I just explained to you, right, investigating human history, investigating the build up of civilization and seeing that seeing how gods were created to play a role in legitimizing the rise up of certain civilizations. Right the Carthaginians when they settled, you know, that's when their gods, their gods started representing their cities. Right.

The same thing happened when different trade routes were established. You know, they found a god to kind of protect them and look over them. I mean, this is it's ubiquitous, right, It is existing everywhere at once. It's all over the place. And so to say that one god, the one god that you believe in, happens to be the right one based on the sun and the moon is really no different than what people fought five six thousand years ago about the gods that they were coming up with. And so

I don't believe that you have presented us evidence. In fact, you have just kind of done more of the same. You really have struggled to identify, you know, what it is out there that you understand the world to be, and you've kind of just put God on top of it to explain it. Does that make sense? Yeah? That makes sense? Can I can I can I give my thoughts out there a little? Because you know,

I'm trying to I'm trying to like convey just my first debate. So I'm a little on the edge because I because I want I want everybody to not like turn to God, but I want them to at least see my views when you do know what I mean. And so uh uh, maybe I haven't been those ideas properly, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that, being honest, we never really know if there's a god out

there. And I've been switching from atheists to christian I got a little I got a little loss loss in the woods there with the scientology, but then, uh, in my in my opinion, right, Christianity at its core is all about sacrifice. It's all about you. You never really you never really know what's out there. So maybe maybe for like maybe for other atheists, they don't get why we turn to Christianity, right, But for me, I get it because whenever I'm whenever I whenever I'm like feeling terrible or

something like that, I look forward to Christianity. I Uh, Christianity is kind of a limit for us, be honest. If there are tons of bad people out there, right, tons of bad people out there. But whenever you see somebody turn to Christianity, more often than not than not, they start doing they start doing that, they start doing less bad things. And well, I don't know if that's I don't know if that's true. If people become religious, it doesn't mean that they start doing bad things or

stop doing bad things. Uh. You know, the the epidemic of child molestation in churches is running rampant, and it has been. I mean, let's face it, there is probably so much we don't know. Uh, But a study from last year showed that between nineteen fifty and the year twenty twenty three hundred thousand children were molested in French cathedrals, And how do you justify that? Excuse me? And yeah, did I say nineteen fifteen, twenty twenty, three hundred thousand? How do you justify that God is in

those churches, that God is looking out for their best interests? I mean, God might make you feel good, but existing as the moral compass and as the all powerful and all loving God, you know, it's it's just doesn't check, man, it doesn't make sense, it doesn't logically follow. So what I think you've given us right now is your reason for believing in God. And that's because it makes you feel good. And that's okay,

yes, but go ahead, Sophia. So I really need to quote something to you that I just found this week because it does a great job of countering what you just argued, that people start doing better things. So you know who Frederick Douglas was, Yeah, maybe the black guy who he was, the black dude, prominent abolitionist. He was a slave and he wrote a lot, so we'll just we'll just go with that. Was having a

belt doone? But yes, so Frederick Douglas wrote in When His Master Converted, which it feels dirty to just say master of another person rich anyway. But when he converted to Christianity, Frederick Douglas really hoped that this would improve his behavior. As this book, I'm just really recording this lot white too

long references. So Douglas notes that he initially welcomed the news of all his master's conversion with some faint hope that these newfound Christian beliefs would lead his master to emancipaid him of and his fellow slaves, or at least to treat them more humanely. But Douglas was quickly disappointed, finding that the addition of Christian

faith into the household actually made conditions worse. For what old found in Christianity was not a prick of conscious conscience leading to moderation and benevolence, but rather sturdier support for his cruelty. Douglas saw the perverse dynamic clearly prior to his conversion, and this is quoting Frederick Douglass. He relied upon his own depravity to shield and sustain him in his savage barbarity, but after his conversion he

found religious sanction and support for his slaveholding cruelty. And this is not the only example that even this book alone gives of people who convert to Christianity because now the evil they do, they can do by divine mandate. So it just gets ten times worse. The cover up of child molestation in the Catholic Church, or in the Southern Baptist Convention, or we can list a huge number of churches here. Those were all done to preserve the glory of God,

to preserve this idea that people are better within the church. And so I don't even think that I need to really question or argue against this idea that Christianity makes people better, because I think, if you have your eyes opened, it's so self evidently nonsense. Yeah. So you know, Mattias, I think right there is a good stopping point for us because you called

in to present evidence. I don't think hold on, say, I don't think that Sophia or I really buy the evidence that you presented, and we've given our reasons why. But you did raise a point. You know, people are become better versions of themselves when they become Christian or maybe you know, when they convert to religion in general. I don't know, uh, but I think you should call back with that. I think you should go

and do your research and really present a good argument and call back. Call back anytime, don't wait for Sophia and I call back next week and present your argument for Christianity helping people be better people. But I thought we had a wonderful conversation. Go ahead and Tea. Think you sound like you're trying to get something in, and if it's really important, go ahead and present it. I just want, I just want my closing thoughts of a quick

rebuttal. I think while you could say, while you could say that Christianity oppressed oppressed a bunch of people, I think you can also look at the good examples of Christianity and look at John Brown, who was very radically opposed to slavery because of the Bible, because he would because he didn't. Right, So, Matias, Mitias, I apologize. I'm going to cut you off the hare because I, like I said, I want this to be a conversation for future reference. I want this to be a future conversation.

We had one conversation with you regarding evidence. We pivoted to Christianity's impact on people's behavior, and I want to take that second part and have it again later. So what I'm going to do is we're going to move on. I really appreciate you Matias for calling in thought. I thought Mattias was great, honestly, really respectful, did exactly what he said, wants to respectfully present evidence for God, and he did that well. He was respectful.

I don't know that he gave evidence for God, but in any case, we're going to hear back from him, hopefully, and I hope to talk to him again soon. So with that, I want to read a super chat. We got ten dollars from x million for the first time when Sophia is co hosting my talk Heathen submission was not selected. I'll have to promote it myself. God even still credit for creating evil for fuck's sake. Isaiah forty five seven. Okay, well, hey, that's one way to do

it. Look, if you don't get selected in the top three, if you give us money, we'll read it. Honestly, So, Sophia, looks like you're having a negative impact on this guy being selected. What's what's going on? So I'm sorry, Yeah, I don't know. My vibes were off. I guess, yeah, but that is really funny and I appreciate it and I'm glad. That's awesome. X million, X million is family. He's uh he or she? I could ever remember it were they? I'm sorry, I probably talked to you before, but I know that

I see your name everywhere. You're in the discord, you're in the comments, you're everywhere. So I appreciate x million, but I want to you know, Sophia, I was in the supermarket last week, and I've been in the supermarket every week, and there's always these like bibles or religious books, you know, in the lobby where there's a bulletin board and it advertises church services and like that. So I finally grabbed somebody who worked there and I'm like, hey, what do I need to do to be able to

put something up that I want to put up? And they said, well, you just need to talk to you know, the customer service. But the line was super long. But I said, well, why do I need to talk to somebody about it? There's all this stuff up here. It's it's all religious content. You know what if I just wanted to put my own religious related content and they said, ah, we need to make

sure it's not offensive. So I haven't put up my own flyer yet, although I plan on doing it, But that just really like is mind boggling. What do they mean? Does somebody get to choose like what's offensive religiously and what's not? Like is it something that they disagree with? I don't know. But but for everybody listening, you know, we have our own flyers from the ACA. It's available on a tiny dot c c forward slash

ACA flyers and so they're printable flyers. They're advertising for people to call in and hang them up somewhere with permission and encourage people to call up and defend their faith. They should, they should be engaging with the show. And if you post it anywhere, take a picture of yourself with it, and we might just air it on the show as long as it's tasteful. So so email that photo to TV at atheist typeocommunity dot org and hopefully we can

get you up. But uh yeah, we we have the flyers. I post a video every week every every time before I go on, I post to my my own personal TikTok. But uh talk Heath it also has its own TikTok, so go ahead and join us there. We have pre show lives at the ACA TikTok Atheist Community of Boston, and we also have talk Heathen TikTok. So look us up there and feel free to like this this video, subscribe to our channel, enable notifications, and comment on your favorite

callers. So tell us why Sophia is your favorite host as well. And if you say it's because of my boobs, because that's that's why I'm my favorite host. So you know, Wellten's gonna argue with you. You know it's this is an unfair advantage because I don't have boobs. But in any case, we're going to move on. We've got some other theists callers that want to talk to us in conjunction with what we want to talk about today.

We have Michael from California. He him, who's a theist, says usually, yeah, God values everyone equally for different reasons, regardless of gender. So I would like to talk to Michael. And Michael, you're on with Jimmy and Sophia. How can I help you? How can we help you? Excuse me? Yeah, So, I thought that the prompt as far as in the video was pretty interesting, you know, to talk about

and so so and so. I just I wanted to talk about that you know, and just sort of you know, uh yeah, pretty much. We have a conversation about about gods, about God valuing everyone, am I and I would say yes on the basis of on the basis of the way that God sees humanity. The way that God sees humanity is that is that we have all sinned against him. We have all, in other words, we have all broken God's commands. Whether it's lying, whether it's harboring hateful

thoughts and whatnot. They're going towards other people to to to whether it's stealing, you know, from somebody else. We've all, in one form of fashion, we we've all broken God's law, in God's command and whatnot. But but that still does not deter him from loving everybody with the same love or that he exemplified on the cross by sacrificing and shedding his blood on the

cross to pay for those sins, to pay the penalty for that. All right, well, let's not let's not move into let's not move into preaching here. We got it. Uh So you think that God treats everybody equally regardless of gender, even though we have all done some bad things against him. I'm gonna I'm gonna let Sophia take this one. I think she's got thoughts on this, and and Sophia, please Yeah. Is it not said that I that women are saved through child bearing? Is that a version of

a Yeah? I believe yes it is. It is so when we're talking about God treating every equally, says many things about salvation, but only for women? Is it supposed to be because I push a human out that doesn't sound equal to me? Well, well, I wouldn't argue that that me personally, I wouldn't argue that that that that in and of itself is a means of salvation in the way is the Bible. Then the Bible says it.

And so you wouldn't argument though, why not because the means of said because the means is because the means of salvation, once again was the sacrifice. That that what that Jesus paid on the cross, and that's not what in him that we can be saved. But that's not what the Bible says. It talks about that, But then it also says that women specifically are saved through child bearing. So I don't stand how you just ignore that part.

I feel like that's kind of a just just that, like, I don't really need to give a lot more because I feel like there we already see that there's aequality in the Bible, and I think that this isn't even bringing it in any way into a modern day when we look at how women

are treated in religious societies. And so I feel like, again, other than you just deciding to ignore that and saying you wouldn't argue it, because of course you wouldn't, because that does that wouldn't defend your point, but it's just as much a part of the Bible, Like how do you I don't know, Jimmy, do you have something to add there? But because I feel like I disagree that all fenders are are treated equally, I don't think that that's true. I also think that you know on this point that

women are saved through child bearing. I think it speaks to kind of another point. You know, when we talk about original sin women, I think we're given the far worst punishment. Men don't have to go through anything that women have to go through. When you want to talk about the pain of child bearing, I mean not only the pain but the death that's involved.

And I've talked about this before, but you know, how do you equate that, How do you consider all genders equal when women clearly are the blame for the sin that you talk about. So I don't know, that's that's my initial thought. I would my mind goes directly there. But then there

are all these other things, right. I don't think that God values women because there are quotes in the Bible that say that women should submit to their husbands the same way that they should submit to God, because men are the head of the house household, just as God is the is the head of their faith or whatever. I'm misquoting that, but you get my gist. Women, again, I've mentioned this earlier, can be stoned to death for

reasons that men would never be stoned to death. For even Jesus talks about women being in the domestic sphere of the household, right saying things like, well, give your wife this bread to need for you and things like that. So this is a this a mindset that is consistent throughout the Bible, and I don't see it being equal at all. Now that's just in the Bible. Let's talk about genders nowadays. Does the church? Do churches consider

women equal to men? I think not. I think there are many religions where women are not allowed to Women are not allowed to hold the same responsibilities as men. Right Christianity, specifically, the Bible states, you know, women can't be in positions of authority in church, they shouldn't teach, and I think in many Christian sects that's still the case. Some of them have deviated, but you know, for the most part, they're still being acted

out today. Let's talk about transgender people. Do you think that they are being treated fairly by Christian evangelicals today? Absolutely not. And so there's a lot of things that we can point to that I think render this idea of God treating all genders equal just really counterproductive and in contrast to what you're claiming.

So okay, So, so the point that I would make is that in those examples that you gave that yes, it is that that that that it's true that people that we don't treat women, men, transgender people, that we don't treat them with respect and with love as they should be treated with respect and love. That's not the argument. The argument is whether or

not God sees treats everybody fairly? Where how does God view mankind as opposed to me viewing mankind, or as opposed to somebody else, another human being viewing mankind. Our views are our views of one another are differently, and because we as human beings, we do view people on the basis of race, on the basis of sex, on the basis of religion, on the

basis of disability, on the basis of weight. People place its value, people place its value on physical on physical attributes that God does not consider to be worthy of merits, and that God wouldn't say, Okay, because you're skinny or because you're fat, that going do you get to be with me? It's not on the basis of physical It's not on the basis of physical attributes, if you will, all right, Well, Michael, these are a lot of you're making a lot of claims right now, and there's just

no way to support them. Sophia, did you have something that you wanted to comment? Pretty simple and short, really, for it to be true that God doesn't value us based upon our physical attributes like gender, we'll just go with gender. Will not address race in the Bible or anything else like

that, you'd have to ignore the Bible. You'd have to say that the Bible does not speak for God, because it is made explicit many times that the expectations for me if I were to follow God would be extremely different than the expectations for men. And not only is being safe through child bearing part of the Bible, but the expectations for me would be to be quiet, to be a follower. It would be assumed that my ideas are not nearly

as important. And I know every exception can be pointed out in the Bible. With women, people try to pretend that, like, well, there's a few women mentioned in the New Testament that sort of were part of the church, so that counts, or Debra's in the Old Testament she was a leader. It's fine to have a few exceptions, but when it comes to the stated rules about who I am supposed to be, it absolutely does not

treat us differently, or it absolutely does treat us differently. So either God doesn't view us, or God doesn't view us as being different and he values men and women equally, and the Bible does not speak for God because that's the only way that could be true, or God does see us as being of different value depending upon our gender, and the Bible does speak for him. So basically, what you're saying is contradicting the Bible's own report of gender.

I mean, if you believe the Bible, then you can't believe that's true. And Michael, I would just want to add that you are speaking on behalf of God right now, and you have not given evidence for him. You know that that's true. Right, So you're telling us the way that God looks at us, uh, and that's different from the way that we look at each other. But you also then need to uh supply us with proof that you know how God looks at people. Okay, okay,

so how does God view people? Well? What about what about what Sophia just said? What about everything that Sophia just said? Though, I mean, don't just let's not skip that, like what like what like as far as what specifically because she said a lot? All right, do you couldn't

grab one thing out of that? Now now you're talking Okay, so you're okay, so you're talking about women not having positions of authority and whatnot, like I'm talking about how Okay, clearly the Bible treats us differently based on gender, and if that is the word of God, then God treats us differently based upon gender. Yeah, you know what, I'm actually I'm gonna

I'm gonna take a swing at a left field here. But Michael, I'm actually gonna ad ask you to call us back because Sophia kind of just made some good points and spoke for a minute, and you really I don't think that you were paying attention, man, So what I'm going to do is ask you to call back and and come in a little bit more focused next time, because we have other callers on the line that that have been waiting

and they they really want to stay actively engaged and pay attention. So what we are going to do now is pivot, and Michael, thank you for calling. I mean, hey, I wish everybody was as respectful and open as you are. But you know, we just can't waste our time here. It's it's limited. So what I want to do is move on to John. He him from the UK, wants to talk about what resurrection means. All right, So, uh, John, you are on with Jimmy and Sophia. What can we do for you? Hey? John, You're

on with Jimmy and Sophia. Hi guys, Oh hey, this is run Yeah, speak from the pun So thank you foringvising me. I've come on behalf of Richard, who I've had a few conversations with on TikTok that the character limits stops them talking properly. He invited me, he invited me to

join you quite a while ago. To be honest about I've been so busy, I just haven't gone meat here I am so I mean, that's kind of a headline of really the resurrection thing that only came about because I heard you talking to my mother guy about resurrection, and I just wanted to point out that there's a lot of misunderstanding about what resurrection actually mean. I mean, when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, that wasn't resurrection. That was

bringing him back to life. So Jesus didn't come back to life because if he come back to life, he would have had to die again at some point later on in his life, as we all do. He came to new life, he was resurrected back to his original day hide position with the Father, and for a short time before that he was on earth speaking to people eating fish. And I know there are issues there, but he wasn't, you know, he wasn't back to life. As a human being.

It's not a case of to coming back to life and walking around again. So I just wanted to make that important point about what the resurrection actually means. It's a regeneration to a completely new kind of existence. Okay, So what are the implications of that then, because you're sort of mentioning that it is it's not just human body anymore. It's this deified, different kind of

body. What are the implications of that difference. Well, the implications are, first of all, that Jesus came from heaven and was Although were born of a woman and therefore had earthly substance in humanity, his true nature was actually divine because he went back to the Father. As he said to his disciples, I am returning to my Father to prepare a place for you. And the only implication is that as a Christian, my belief is that I

am both simultaneously now and at some point in the future. And do you very careful my words to you, because we live in such a demathologized age that if I say things like go to heaven, it suggests this sort of odd place somewhere that I'm going to go to on our diet. But I more think of it in terms of my whole self, My whole human nature has been resurrected by accepting Christ as the resurrect humans, so that I will

then rise with him. So it's kind of a primordial, traditional sort of mythological I don't know of abjectives to use, really, but that sounds very that sounds very vague, and it sounds like almost well, it's it's kind of true. I mean, you know, it really doesn't give us any answers. In fact, it departs from what we've been presented in the Bible so much that it leaves it so open for interpretation, because that's what you

would need to do in order to make it work. Right. We have already seen how you know, the Bible is wrong in so many ways. You know. Let's take, for example, when Jesus was talking about going out and spreading the word right, so he said, surely not a generation will pass in Israel before the Second Coming. He also said that you should go out and try and spread the word to all of the suburbs of Israel

if you will. But you will, you won't have time to reach the wall because the Second Coming will surely come before where you get to finish that. I mean, we've seen that that's not true, right. You know, we know now that Moses probably didn't wander in the desert for forty years because it only takes like six days to walk the whole across the whole desert. We have technology that allows us to measure that. But hold on,

hold on, let me, let me just explain. So as we see these stories fall apart, we have to kind of come up with these new inventions, these new descriptions, right, And I think that's what you're doing a little bit. And I don't think that you're the first one. You know, there are a lot of people that reinvent the message of God because it's really doesn't comport with reality. I mean, heck, how many sects of Christianity do we have? I don't know, I'm gonna throw a wild

number. I don't know, two hundred. I mean it is probably two hundred. And then then there are, let's not forget religions that splinter off of each other. I've said it many times. You know, Christianity is

not all that different from other religions. You know, who else was half human and have to find Heracles and he was around I don't know, five to seven hundred years prior to Jesus, so there's an influence that could have taken place there, you know, and somebody probably came up with Jesus to explain, explain this half, this this demi god lifestyle or this demigod's story, because the other one didn't work anymore. And here you are following in

those footsteps. That's my take on that. So what are your thoughts there? Well, I'm kind of with Thois on this one. This idea of the sort of primordial idea of resurrection, that it's a universal tim that pretty much everybody in the world kind of had the concept of. I mean even in Hinduism, the idea of the supreme personality of godhead, the notion that

there is something other than oursel. I think it's part of the human psyche, and the reason we have all these global religions is because we have different ways of expressing that. And as a Christian in a sense, I too too obviously could have been brought up with it. And I don't deny Richard talks, So forgive me, forgive me, I just want to I just need a comment on that point. Did you choose Christianity. Oh yeah, absolutely you did. So you just said you were brought up with it.

Yeah. What I mean is I've brought up with it, so I know, I know that the knowledge of Christianity. But I went away. So were you born from Christian parents in a Christian country? Yeah? I was, Well, how convenient you know, I mean from the ages of Well, I was just when you were Jimmy, can you can you can you let me finish what I was going to say? All right, you're right, you're right, you're right, go ahead. Yeah, I understand Awkins's

point. You know that if you're born in India, you're probably going to be a Hindu. If you're born in Arabia, you're probably going to be a Muslim. If you're born in Checkas of actually you might be an ode list if you're born up in Norway. You know. I got yeah, I get that point. I get that you said that. What what doalks forget is that people have their own minds when they reach eighteen years old. And I think that if you're going to send somebody out to the ocean,

you don't let them go out there with nothing. You give them a map. Now, having looked at that map. They can then decide that they want to follow it or not. They can still reject it. You know, we get people who think you're it's flat. You know, they've been brought up with the global Earth. Oh no, I think it's flat. I'm sorry, Michael, But you know what, it's not that easy to reject. It's not that easy when you're eighteen, you're still very much dependent

on your family. You don't want to be looked at as an outcast. You might need them financially, right. You are probably raised in a society that would consider you different if you decided to be, you know, an atheist or something else. I deal with that. I'm forty one years old, and I deal with being the other in my own family, you know.

And it's just at some point I decided I wanted to sever the things that I had been given before I was sent out on the ocean, because they didn't make sense to me. But you know what, the one thing that I was given, I was given because my parents got it from their parents, and so on and so forth for probably a thousand years, who knows, who knows how far it goes back. But the point is I looked at these people that were giving me food and security, and you know,

I'm sure you've heard this argument. They were giving me, gave me shelter. They were big, they were old, you know, so I knew that they had done something right in life. Plus they were giving me everything I needed. What they're saying must be correct. And that's how you end up with this idea that Yep, Christianity, Christianity is the way to go. And I think did we lose Did we lose John? Or John? You still with us? All right? So I think we lost John.

I don't know what happened here. I knew he was calling from from over the pond. And you know, Sophie, I'm sorry if I took that and like, kind of that's okay. I wanted to get back to you, so so sorry you were you were like you had some thoughts and please share simply that we can say that we have these independent minds, and to some degree it's true we do at every age. I've never met a

toddler who doesn't seem like an extremely independent person in their own way. But we are formed to such a great degree by the cultures and the mentalities around us that to change our minds about something as vital and organizing in our life religion, we have to put ourselves into a mindset that our brains genuinely have not learned how to operate within. So even when I was I was a critical thinker, when I was a Christian, I wasn't somehow dumber than I

am now. But the perspectives that I had and the arguments that I knew and knew how to make those were all from within a Christian context. So unless I was exposed to entirely new ways of thinking, I would not have been able to question those with a fully independent mind. And some people may argue that I currently don't have an independent mind because I became an atheist and

so you know, the devil and all that. But I remember trying so hard to make this all make sense and applying every ounce of logic I could. I read all the C. S. Lewis just like John was just quoting, and as soon as I was looking at it in a different light without already believing that this was true, it became untenable. That was the first time I really looked at it independently. So we can say we have independent minds but context determines a lot of how we think of things. I'm

an American, I'm a woman, I'm white. All of those things inform how I look at the world. Oh yeah, very well said, I have nothing to add to that. I thought that was great, And you know what I really liked. I really liked John's call. So thank you John for calling in. Whatever happened there, if you got dropped, I know it was a long distance call, so please call in again. And uh, let's maybe maybe you'll have a better conversation with somebody else. I

don't know. Maybe I was kept stepping on your toes there, but I just want to say that I really did appreciate that. So to all of our callers today, those were great, you know. And and to Michael, who I called Matthew several times, I apologize again. And to Michael who called in but we had to let him go. Uh, you know, give give us a call back and next time, maybe pay attention. But what what I want to? Go ahead, Sophie, you wanted to say something? Oh no, I thought you were all right. Cool.

So we had two super chats coming. Kelly Laughlin, a member of two years, says he's giving two dollars, one for each of Jimmy's boobs, which is fucked up. Man. I'm working on my summer body, all right, so stop, you know, don't draw attention to the parts of my body. I'm not so proud of. Thanks Kelly, I will see you at the after show. And Miranda Rensberger, a member of two months five dollars, a moderator asked for someone to say boobs in a super chat.

Who am I to refuse an instruction from a mod Miranda, We could always count on you. Thank you so much. Hey, I love what I've started. Yeah, yeah, hey, this was a you know, this was a blessing in disguise, my get us money then great. Yeah, you're like kind of a virtual stripper or something, you know. Yeah, you know, we have a few minutes, Like we're over a few minutes, but I want to do something. So our crew puts together these this optional content, and I want to go through like just at least a

couple of screenshots. So Sophia, we're going to go through screenshot number two. We're going to I'm gonna ask the crew to bring up screenshot number two so we can see that this is you. Sophia. Such a flattering picture. Ooh, I like the quote, don't make me lesser than a man. I sound so sassy. Let's see, now we have fifty percent to forest rates and gender confusion. Patriarchy creates families and society. Feminism destroys both.

Okay, so let's talk about happiness within families that have more egalitarian marriages. They're more likely to last, and everyone's reports to be happier people. So I don't know, feminism seems like it shores up marriage. They're pretty well unless you go back to the early stages of second wave feminism in which women weren't allowed to have bank accounts. So you're right. Patriarchy kind of does show up the family there, but it's just because it traps women and

they can't leave. So technical point. I guess this, dude. I also want to mention the idea of gender confusion. So when I think about my own gender, just using myself as an example, I am a woman, but I am considered in many of my traits incredibly masculine. I'm aggressive, I'm loud, I tend to loll about all over the place, so like man, spreading is my thing. I also present as hyperfeminine a lot of the time physically, but then my personality some people feel doesn't match that.

That was a huge point of tension within the Church of who I was allowed to be and who I wasn't, so gender confusion I felt a lot more when I was part of the church, when I was under a more patriarchal standpoint, because I was being told that I was by dictative of God one way, when in actuality I simply wasn't. I don't have the character that the Bible ascribes to women, So that was a lot of gender confusion

for me. And now that I don't have those bounds, I'm able to fully be myself quite a bit more and I feel less confused gender wise. I'm sure this person is referring to what they would view as probably like trans issues, but I think that we can start with talking about gender way before that and just how it doesn't really fit anyone that well. And working as a counselor, and I think you see a lot of men who their basic issues come from being told that they're supposed to be a particular way, that

they can't be vulnerable, that they can't need help. And when we're able to break out of patriarchy. Those men are able to get the help that they need and even rely on other men and talk about issues in their lives with them. I would argue that patriarchy has caused more gender confusion for them because it's telling them to cut off parts of their humanity than being free from it. So that's my rant about that. Per excellent. No, that's

great. I'm glad that that generated such a lively response. And I would to say to this person, you know, feminism destroying the family. I mean, why don't you try being committed to a partner who has equal expectation, equal rights in the household as you. I mean, my wife, My wife is very much an equal partner and such a great outstanding mother, a hard worker, she's a nursing student, she works as a nursing assistant. I mean, she works hard to you know, she is busting her

butt. And honestly, I couldn't feel better. I want to cook dinner, you know, And I couldn't feel better about being in a household, in a family where my wife sets a positive example for what my daughter should be someday, but also how my son should view women. And so I think that I'm very lucky in that respect. I'm gonna do one. Go ahead, I want you to do yours. And then I've been wanting to get to screenshat number eight for some time for like, yeah, okay,

but do your thing first. Yeah, I'm gonna do one for me. So I'm gonna go to number one. And I love this one. I love this one because it says I was talking about here the story of Abraham forcing his wife's slave Hagar to have sex with him in Bearished Children. And the person in the comments wrote this guy accuses Christians of not reading the Bible. He doesn't either, which is why he reads this and says this. He knows nothing for this screenshot. I literally had the Bible open and read

it directly from the Bible. This was the best response I could have to a screenshot. But yeah, it's amazing. Let's move to number eight. Let's go to eight. Okay, So number eight says, and I just I love it so much. I'm glad she takes this attitude. Can't wait for her to tell her kids that Christmas is canceled because she doesn't believe in an imaginary sky daddy. It's when I apparently mocked God by calling him sky

Daddy. Okay, so, first of all, the premise of this comment is that my children, who are now in utero and not yet two years old, I will introduce them to the concept of Christmas and then take it away as like a lesson, which is a bizarre premise anyway. And then also, do we know why we have Christmas in the middle of winter? It's sure as hell, isn't because that's when the Christians decided Jesus was born.

It's because that's when Yule was, which was a pagan holiday in Europe, and when people were Christianizing the rest of Europe, they were like, well, we can't get rid of all of their holidays. We have to let them have their imaginary sky Daddy holidays. So we're going to uh just integrate that and have Christmas be part of that. Do you think Santa Claus was in the Bible? Like, there's so many aspects of Christmas and of the scenario this person has in their head that I find fascinating. I think

they inadvertently admitted that Santa Claus is the real sky Daddy. Like that's what I heard from that comment. That's what I heard God just has a naughty and icelist, at least I don't know which one I'm on. Yeah, I just I love that for so many reasons. Yeah, and honestly, like my son right now is also the only grandchild on both sides, so he doesn't you imagine your skuy doddies he has par Sure. Yeah, that

was great. I'm glad we got to some of these. Yeah, crew, thank you so much for like taking your time to put these together and definitely keep them coming. Remember, everybody, the prompt for this week, what is God's idea of a perfect woman? Replying in the comments, Tune in at the beginning of next week's show and we will read the top three answers. With that, Sophia, I have to say, it's time for

some lover rings. Who are you throwing your lover rings too? I'm sending mind to my wife Boom, Yeah, my partner, I should say. I'm gonna say for me, it's gonna be the people like that, like Michael, who kind of reminded me of myself. They're coming into this trying to make this all make sense, and I hope they're best for you. Awesome, awesome, Yeah, thank you again to all of our callers.

Remember, Sophia and I are going to jump over to ACA Discord. That's tiny dot CC forward slash ac D Discord, that's a c D discord, and we'll be over there having the after show. And if you do not believe, well then this is your community and we appreciate you being here. But if you are a believer, we do not hate you. We're just not convinced. We want the truth. So watch Truth Wanted live Friday at

seven pm Central. Visit tiny dot CC slash y t tw and call into the show at five one two nine four two, or connect to the show online at tiny dot CC slash call tw