Talk Heathen 07.39 with ObjectivelyDan and Jimmy Jr

This atrocity that I'm about to read comes from Genesis chapter sixteen, verses one through four. Let us open our bibles. Sarai, Abraham's wife, and had an Egyptian slave girl. And Sarai said to Abraham, you see that the Lord has prevented me from bearing children. Go into my slave girl. It may be that I shall obtain children by her. And Abrahm listened to the voice of Sarai. So Sarai took her slave girl and gave her to

her husband as a wife. He went into her and she conceived. Here's proof that Yahweh, the very insignificant Mesopotamian storm God turned Hebrew creator God, has no issue with slavery, rape, or kidnapping, since part of his plan obviously was for Abraham to rape his slave and give her child to his own wife. It's no wonder that the founders of this very country not only use the Bible to justify slavery, but also rape their slaves and sold off

their children. If you're a Christian Hebrew American and you are outraged by anything that I just said, then you don't really know much about the history of your country or your religion. In fact, you're ignigrant to quite a bit, and I think you should call the show and talk to us about it, because it's starting now. Hello, Hello, everybody, Welcome to another

episode of Talk Heathen. I am your host today objectively Dan. Today is Sunday, October first, twenty twenty three, and joining me today is Jimmy Junior, other host of Talk Heathen. First time US of US hosting Talk Heathen together though, So yeah, that's yeah, that's right. Happy to be here with you today live from New York City. As you can see, we are right, we are together, perched up in our skyscraper.

Yeah, you know, top of this. We we bought this building together, actually, Dan and Jamie Junior's Building Properties, Inc. And operated. You can see, we've got a nice New York skyline and it's great. Don't ask us how we got the money, because I couldn't explain to you honestly. Jimmy Junior just said, don't worry about it, and that was it. I know a guy, he knows a guy. I assume multiple

guys, but at least one guy, and that's all that matters. So if you're wondering what this is hanky, then is a product of the Atheist Community of Austin, a five O one C three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, in the separation of religion and government. And this is a live call in show, which means Yusha

Colin because we have open lines right now. So the number for the show is five one two nine nine one nine two four two, or you can call from your computer at tiny dot cc slash call th h Jimmy, how you do it? This week? You're doing all right. I am doing all right. I am in a really good mood. I'm happy to be here with you. We are reunited. I haven't worked with you since March on truth wanted, so reunited. It feels so good. That's right, says Yeah, Yeah, I'm happy to be here with you. Two.

Before we get to calls, though, we do have our question of the week. It's the question that we're asking you guys every single week and we're reading your responses too. And the last week's question we asked was what is inappropriate to say at a religious funeral? This was a hot question to ask. Was a little nervous about some of the responses, but we have our top three responses for you here. It's number three comes from our ur al Turner, who says, sorry, that's our turner. My contexts are not

in right again, and I gotta work with that. But anyway, it says inappropriate thing to say at a religious funeral. I'm sure he's down below screaming up at us. Which is which is really? I know that's an old George Carlin reference. Is it George Carlin? That sounds like George Carlin thing? Okay, all right, I'm knocking off points for stealing from George Carlin. But you know what, maybe George Carlin is screaming up at us,

telling us we're stealing as jokes, so regardless of that. Number two comes from Kirk and Kirk and MP, who says, inappropriate thing to say to Christian funeral. We are gathered here today on this joyous occasion to celebrate the passing of the deceased. Maybe all join him soon, which is a very funny. I don't know. I like that one. Number one comes from Veranda Rendsburger, who also had the number three and number one comment on

truth Wanted the other day. By the way, it said inappropriate thing to say at a religious funeral. Let's give it three days and see if it takes. Which is awesome, well, very good. These are great answers. These are better than I was very afraid of the answer to the question last week, but we ended up getting some really good ones. So this week is gonna be a little bit different. We actually have a caption context. So audio listeners, I'm sorry because you're not gonna be able to participate

as much. But let's be real, you probably weren't commenting on YouTube anyway because you're listening somewhere else. So this week is the caption this image, it's me and Sophia from last week's talking. Then what are we saying in this Uh, you know we want to know, So give us your best caption below. And Jimmy, you had a really good caption for this. What was your caption for this? This image? On screen? Here?

This this image reeks of eighteen seventies wild West misogyny. It looks like Dan is optioning off Sophia and he's saying, you two folks, you too, you can win a date with this young lady. She's cooked clean, she's cautioning her off for a date. It's so funny you can read and write. It's so right though. I laughed so hard when you type that. I thought that was so funny. But yeah, that's a good one, so you can't steal that. You guys have to think of a better one

than that. But good luck, because I think that one's pretty good. Yeah, I want to see what you guys right, So give us a shout out in the comment below saying caption contest and giving your your caption and we will pick our top three for next week. Jimmy, this is of course a call in show, but this show does a lot of work and we cannot do the work on this show without thinking the wonderful, awesome,

fantastic crew that helps make this show happen every single week. So we're giving a quick shout out to the crew through our crew cam and we got Rabbits, oh Man cats on crew today doing the hard work of being cute and doing what they gotta do and real quick. Also, we do have a super chat that is one way you can support the show is through a super chats. We have one from Greg Markowski who gives five dollars and says thanks Jimmy Junior and objectively Dan for the show, and you are welcome. You

are absolutely welcome. We are happy to be here. Jimmy, you're ready to talk to some folks. Yes, yes, I have been waiting for this all week. Let's jump in. Let's do it. Let's do it. We have our first call from Charles calling from Pennsylvania. Charles, you are live on talkie. Then, what's going on? Are you? Thanks? Yeah. They talked about evolution and stuff like that. And I talked to Richard Gilliver a couple of weeks ago. He said, you had an

evolution specialist on there. Wanted me to call in, but I couldn't wait too long. There was other people ahead of me. And see, anyway, I'm glad I got in here today. But maybe you could answer during the beginning, whenever humans were just evolving in this world is pretty primitive, there were wild predators evolving too, and mostly wild animals are a lot faster than humans. They have claws and sharp, big teeth, and they could

smell a mile away. And so if a human was evolving and he had a woman with him and a baby crying in the woods at night, and so the wild predators would hear that and they were very hungry, so they would come after and find those humans and eat them. Basically, humans only have one baby at the time normally, and like say, wild predators, they have a litter, they have a bunch of you know, offspring.

So it seems to me that you'd have a lot of wild predators searching for something to eat, and that little baby wouldn't shut up crying and here comes and how would man protect against that? And you can't tell me. Sticks and rocks and they had fire, and they didn't have fire in the beginning, but I wouldn't imagine, but God protected man in the early beginnings from wild predators. It's it's my thought. Okay, just real quick and your point of view. How long ago are we talking here? Thank yeah?

And whenever man begins to evolve, I'm not sure. I don't know, but I'm not sure anybody really knows that far back. My take on this first, and then let Jimmy give his take on this. But you have to keep in mind a couple of things here, because when we're talking about the origin of humans, that can be a little bit tricky. But we need a modern like Homo sapiens. Right. One thing to consider with this

is Remember we're not the only primates on Earth. Right. There are also guerrillas and chimpanzees that also give about one you know, one baby at a time, right, that are very similar to us, and I would argue have less defenses than we do in some circumstances, right, I mean, certainly, I don't think you think a chimpanzee is as smart or a gorilla is as smart as a human being, right, as the ability to manipulate tools and things like that. But even beyond that, right, there are

animals that have different reproduction strategies. Deer, for example, right, dear, don't have any defenses. Whatsoever they run is their defense. But we still have deer around. Why do we do that because fray animals have typically larger offsprings, right, So there's kind of an offset there. So while you may think of us as defenseless, early primates are actually predators in many

sense. One of the ways we know this is that most predators on Earth tend to have frontwood facing eyes as opposed to eyes on the sides of their head like deer do. Another what we consider prey animals. So there's a lot of speculation that early humans could be just as savage and just as predatory as any other kind of predator. Do we have weaknesses? Are there other animals that could prey on us? Sure? But if you think of the average ape size as well, I mean, that's typically larger than what you

see in most ecosystems, we're very large organisms. That size in itself is very helpful. But the earliest of humans are speculated to have two different kinds of you know, mechanisms, one being the fact that we're bipedal means that there's speculation that we were able to run first, right, which other apes aren't able to do. So we're kind of running on the savannah. We're

able to actually track down animals using ambulatory predation, right. We're actually able to outlast a lot of animals in terms of our exhaustion and our ability to maintain stamina. We can do marathons. Other animals can't really do that, right. Animals like lions and stuff will do these sprints, but they can't really keep it up for that long. Cheetahs they're known for going really fast, for example, but that's not something they can keep up for a long

time. Humans can actually stay for a long periods of time, which is interesting, so you know, and on top of that, of course we have our tool making abilities and stuff too, right, so just point out there we have a lot of actually ways we can support ourselves and also be predators, not just pray that even other apes on Earth who don't have those kinds of tools don't have and yet still exist. To have this idea that,

oh, we must have been protected by God. I would wonder if you'd say the same about bnobos or chimpanzees or gorillas who are just as defensive, if not more so, but yet still survive on Earth and I don't know, still do wealth for themselves although their biggest honestly a lot of those animals biggest harm as humans at this point. But that's for another day to talk about. Jimmy, what do you think of my answer? What do you what do you have to contribute? Because I know you have some thoughts

too. I do, I do, and I thought your answer was very good. I like the idea about tools, but I want to kind of reflect on some of the things that excuse me. What was what's our Charles Charles from Pennsylvania, Yeah, yeah, yeah, some of the things that Charles said, so, first of all, people still get killed by predators today. Okay, so uh going through history and we're not you're not really giving us a kind of a time period. But not everybody was protected.

I mean some people were still eating, some people were still killed. Uh, And so that's important to figure out did God protect those people? Why did some people make it and some people didn't? And then why are we still being killed today? That happens a lot all the time. Hippopotamus kills more people every year than than any animal on earth. So just some food

for thought there. But you know, as humans were evolving, so were the predators and as and so were our defense mechanisms against them, our methods. And you say, well, don't tell me we had fire and sticks. You know what, that's actually pretty important. You know for a group of weaker, weaker, a weaker species to surround a more you know, stronger and dangerous species, all holding sticks, all holding something to where they the animal realizes that it would have to take on the entire group. And

then we're holding these things that make us look bigger than we are. Is certainly a defense mechanism that would be effective. In fact, that's why we started doing it. Look at the cobra, for example. The cobra has maybe a one on one and a half inch flap of skin on each side of its head that it expands when it's around the predator. Can it really defeat a predator with a flap of skin. No, But they have to look at that snake and say, this thing's bigger than and I thought,

and maybe they'll turn away and that snake gets to survive. The puffer fish is another example. No tools of its own right, but it's able to expand its body so that it looks like more of a threat than it is, and maybe a would be predator decides to change its mind. And so those are kind of the things that just come to mind. You know, there isn't a formula that works for one set or one ancestor of the human

species that is consistent throughout time. It had to change as the predators changed, and we all kind of evolved together, and we are still evolving and we're still being killed by predators. Finally, that brings me to my last point. How do we know that God protected anybody? I mean that that is the key, the key question I have after your analysis or your synopsis.

You don't know how some people survived. Therefore God is your answer, and that is insufficient for me. So I would ask you to kind of respond, uh, you know, please respond to what Dan and I had to say, but also tell me how do you know that God was protecting anyone? Okay? Yeah, I like say, I don't know evolution, and what I said was maybe something that somebody could study and kind of pinpoint on that. But the reason I know that God is real I call it

in before about this. I've randomly found a photograph of my grandfather on hold on, hold on, Charles. I'm sorry, Charles, can I can I just step in here for a second. I'm sorry. So, so you said you don't know anything about evolution and that's something that somebody would need to study, and you you moved on, and basically what I what I really want you to do is kind of try and harken back for the original intent of your call and answer. You know, how do you know that

God protected people? You called with and you posited the claim that humans human beings survived and an out lived some predator species because God was protecting us. And now you're transitioning to a picture of your grandfather, and I can't. We can't kind of move on just yet. All right. I want to know what you have to say about Dan and I, the responses that Dan and I gave you, and how you can attribute mankind's success to God. Well, you know, God can if he wants to say he was the

creator. He can intervene in any way he chooses. That's like people talk about the flood. I heard somebody say one time that there's not back then, there wasn't enough water to cover the earth. And so I thought about that, you know, and if Jesus, assuming Israel moll applied loaves of bread, then God could actually mall apply how much water was on here and get rid of it. Again. I mean, he can do things whin there's no witnesses. Why would God want to evade detection? If he's got

a story that he called the planet, why cover up? He wants people to come through him, to him through faith. He doesn't want you know and that he's real, because it'd be kind of like having a camera watching you every day, every move you made. You'd say, God's real. He's watching me. I better behave and he wants you to kind of have that gray area. Maybe we're Okay, I'm gonna do what I wanted.

There's no proof I'm gonna live my life and do what I want. So you're more natural as far as being being watched, you know, like, and he doesn't want you to know he's real. Like, I guess he never gave proof to most people. Wait, wasn't Jesus doing miracles for people? Wasn't that proof that he was God? Oh? Absolutely, but a lot of people don't believe in Yeah, he gave roof and there's a lot of people that doubt it and say all of that didn't happen or whatever.

So it's not like proof that you see each and every day and you lose things for people. Right, there's apparently there is a select group of people in history that did actually get to see God and know that he was doing stuff. Right. Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean it was recorded if you know different apostle, I guess what it isn't many different places, and you know it says in the Bible where about God says he warned not to change his word, don't have to do it or take away from

it. And he said that because the people would and apparently I think it happened. You know, it doesn't. That doesn't that kind of contradict your idea here that God wants to remain anonymous and have plausible deniability if he's like directly intervening in the lives of human beings and apparently still continues to today. Well, yeah, when the Bible and all that was wrote in ancient times, you know, and it lasted up until today, it's a big thing.

But in modern times you don't see any of that no more. Like in the Hebrews One, it says God created the universe was his son Jesus. There's no more profits after that. At that point, you know where he got did away with the prophets that tell people convey for God. He only used Jesus after that in Hebrews one and only. I don't want to I don't want to turn this into turn this into a sermon, right, I kind of want to get back to this idea that God specifically protects human

beings and therefore we owe our success to God. But God was not protecting human beings when he flooded the planet right and killed everybody. Theoretically, God was not protecting the three hundred and thirty thousand children that were molested in French cathedrals between nineteen fifty and twenty twenty three. He's not protecting. He didn't

protect the people who were murdered in the Holocaust. I mean, do I have to really go down this road where I start throwing out every single atrocity that God chose not to intervene in and point out that this idea that God specifically protects people is really not founded on anything that we can point to. You know, your analysis that God protected people, therefore we survive today beyond predators and the fact that a woman was killed by a black bear three months

ago in upstate New York. I read the article. I mean, that doesn't fit. So neither does the Holocaust. Neither does the pandemic of child molestation that happens behind closed doors in cathedrals worldwide. I just don't see how you make the connection that God is a protector in any way, shape or form. And I'd really like you to show us some proof or give me something that's going to agree with you. Well, he protected early man,

that was a period of time and now things. He gave everybody free will to do bad things, good things, you know, like that I would like to get back to. And now listen. I randomly found the photograph of nineteen thirty four of my grandfather. He passed away when I was a four month old baby in nineteen fifty eight, and I've pray about him, I've visited his grave, and I think about him a good bit. I'm sixty five years old, and seven years ago I was on eBay looking at

old cars past the time. I hit the seller's other item list on one of them, and he had a listing had said four old police pictures for ten dollars, and because my grandpap was a police in Pennsylvania, can front of I clicked it on, and oh, Charles, did we lose you? Are there? Charles? I just lost you there? Okay, well

that is unfortunate. Again, I'm hearing Charles making a specific claim God protected early man, and I'm hearing no support for this whatsoever other than well, it would be weird if he didn't, because humans are, you know, protected. It's it's just this kind of question begging scenario, right, It's

it's it's kind of circular. It's like, look, we're seeing this other stuff that the fossil record and other kinds of evidence have shown that there are such a thing as early human beings, right, and so well, how can that be? How can we be around? Oh, it must be God. Right, It's just it's just God filling in the gaps, right, God of the gaps of whatever scenario you want to pose it. And and yeah, I think that's inconsistent with other ways in which God has failed

to protect us. And I also don't know why God is like, Okay, well, we have to keep the human species alive enough for them to evolve enough to have free will so that they can go against us, and then I don't have to protect them anymore. Like it just seems a little convoluted. I don't really understand. Yeah, And you know, this is the first time that I've ever heard that God doesn't want people to know that

he's real. Uh, that is an extraordinary claim, considering God gave us the Bible, gave us his son, you know, uh, go on, so on, so on and so forth. So I just you know, that's that was a that was a shock to me. I think I think we actually have Charles back of the line. Charles, can you hear us. Oh yeah, sure, Okay, there we go, Charles. Let's uh. I'll be honest, I wasn't quite sure you were going with the story with your grandfather. But like, I think we still want to

know about this question. Right, you're making a very specific claim. You're saying that God help protect early humanity, and I'm wondering, do you have anything backing up this claim? Do you have any evidence that we should look at or any anything that we can reason to make that claim true, because that's not something jimior I believe. Okay, well, my claim is just basically a thought because based on the amount of wild animals are out there,

like a chimpanzee or monkey. You know, they say, did you ever see a monkey kill something? They're very vicious and they can grab their little baby and run up a tree and hide. I'd like to see a man run with his baby and his wife from like a lion or something, or have a stick or a stone or even things in hunt and packs, you know, like wolves and stuff like ancient wolves, even fish if they went

into the water or there's so many things back periods. Charles, like, I don't live in your lions, so like that's not a don't have to worry about that, Like a lot of humans just didn't live near lions I don't know, or wolves like that wasn't always an issue even when it was an issue, right, Like, there are ways with dealing with that. And the fact is humans did die from predators like a lot. It still

happened, but there was enough of us to still survive. Evolution doesn't say, oh, well, if one species is superior to the other, then the other one gets completely wiped out. It just means that we are open to predation. Deer get predator, get predated by predators all the time. It happens every day. Same thing with rabbits. Rabbits are constantly dying to birds and other things, but they're still around because there are other strategies which

keep them alive. In the case of rabbits and deer, right, they're able to repopulate in large numbers. But for human beings, I mean, there are other defensive mechanisms by which we can survive and obviously still do otherwise, Again, how do benobos still live if they could be eaten by lions or gorillas or chimp and zis right, like, they're these are not small monkeys. These are large primates that that don't have the same kind of defensive

powers that a monkey does. You know, Yeah, I really can't answer, Like I said, I'm a I'm a I guess a theist, But yeah, I can't answer for why things how they played out and how they happen. It was just my thought that God would have protected man and all the animals. He probably done a lot of things that maybe we couldn't understand

too. He can't protect all the animals, right, Charles, because other animals have to kill other animals to survive, right, So some of them do get on the chopping block, right, you know, like say, yeah, he can do things that we couldn't imagine, you know a little when people die at certain aids or babies, you know, or how old should be somebody be before they can die. Anyway, He takes people for different reasons that we can never understand, I imagine. But the main thing

is that that's where faith comes in. Where if you have a firm faith and something bad happens to you and you pray about it, and one day you'll you'll you'll meet him and he'll be pleased with you, Rather than if you would cuss him and swear at him and you're not real and you know, I hate you or whatever. But yeah, that's my thought. Yeah, yeah, go ahead, Jimmy. If he can't if he can do

things that we can't imagine. And that's where faith comes in. Don't you see that not knowing answers to things is what causes some people to come up with this idea of God, Like you don't know how things happen and you can't obtain an explanation, so therefore there must be this all powerful thing that's happening that people call God. Doesn't that make sense to you? How?

Instead of investigating and looking for answers to some of the more trivial questions that are are hard to really explain, that people kind of just settle on this thing that sounds good. I mean, that's what religion sounds like to me. That's what that's what that reflects. It reflects an inability for human kind

to answer some of Lifetop's questions. And instead of trying to go get those answers and say, hey, we don't know, we have to instead say, well, you know, there's a plan higher than us that we can't possibly understand. I just don't know how if there is a God that created us, and he wants us to do good and he wants to protect us, why doesn't he also want us to know that he's real and that there

are reasons for some of the actions he takes. Because if if his goal is worship, well, then wouldn't that convince somebody that why worshiping this God would be a good idea? Because for me, I don't see any good ideas. Yeah, I'm not sure he wants you to worse at him. He will. Have you ever read the Bible? Have you ever read the Bible? Charles? Charles? Have you ever read the Bible? But yeah, and a good bit of it? This is this is your holy book.

I mean, this is what you live your life on. And you've read a good bit of it. And I have to challenge on that. I bet you, I bet you a good bit of it to you? Is actually you just listening to somebody else read it to you, or maybe you picked it up a couple of times and started reading it and then put it back down. Because that is what Christians do. I mean, that is what religious people do. They don't even know what it is they believe.

I thought I was a Christian for twenty seven years of my life, and then I read the Bible front to back, and I said, what the hell have I been being taught my entire life? You know, you really got to look inside that book. If you think that God doesn't want you to worship him, it's obvious to me that you don't know the first thing about your own religion. And that is a scary thing because you're dedicating your life to it. And I'm not trying to be rude to you,

you know, I really appreciate that you called it. I just get I just get very worked up, you know, because I don't like to see people dedicating their lives, their lives to a lie and not even investigating. Yeah, I'm more of a I think at Calvinist, he I'd know absolutely God's real. I've had so many miracles happen in my life. People say, that's like scary in itself. And I never read the Bible. When

I come to believe in God. I never went to charts. But the day when I found that randomly, I said, I pray about my grandfather. He died when I was four. Myth whole baby and I found a photo in Kentucky, just that quick, randomly of him in my heart where it was at about my grandfather. I was stifty two years old when I started thinking about him, and all of a sudden, I said, this

is weird. I keep thinking about him constantly. And the reason I knew that, I asked my older brother, he was ten years older, and he about a year later, he found that same photo with the Historical Society, and he said, you don't do that guy was on that motorcycle? Was my grandfather on a Harley for the newspaper where they bought that brand new in a small town. Okay, no, I don't know, he said

her grandfather. I said, man about fell up or well, Charles, let me ask you this, do you believe that to be a miracle? Oh? Absolutely absolutely? Idle to ask you why you consider that a miracle? I was drawn in. I was a sinner. I mean I was not a really good person at all, and all of a sudden, but three years ago I took that picture to Staples and the manager said, she

went to visit her sister in Ohio last Christmas. Her sister's boyfriend. You know, we have we have time limit for these calls, right, and I want to make sure that we're on track for this, and we're kind of running out of time, so I want to make sure we kind of get on point with this. Right. Well, let's start with this. Maybe, what in your own words, what do you think a miracle is? Like, what's a good definition of a miracle? I don't even know,

really, you know, what's statistically impossible? In my case, excuse me in my case to be statistically impossible, improbable? I'm sorry, events happening, Like, what's the chances that you ever have something like that happened? It's statistically improbable that could ever happen, but it happened to me several times. A lot of things that are just and I know this is I think that's a good place to start. So there's different people that have different

ideas what a miracle is. Right, Some say statistically impossible, and you correct yourself. You said statistically improbable. And I think that's great because improbable isn't the same as impossible, right, Improbable means it's unlikely, but it still could happen. Right, So to summarize what you're talking about here, you're saying you found a photograph and correct me if I'm wrong, because again I'm just summarizing here. But you found a photograph that your brother also found

from a historical society that was a picture of your grandfather. Is that right, am? I fairly summarizing that somewhere close to where Grandpap was at in a small town historical society. Now, the guy on eBay was in Kentucky. He was in Green Up, Kentucky. I called him up and asked him how he got that. He said, he's a retired police officer down there, and my Grandpap was in his uniform on the harley. But he said he bought that on eBay about ten years ago. His name is Steve,

and he's just selling some things and he had two coffees. He says, since that's your grandfather, I'll let you have both of them. So your grandfather was from this small town, Your grandfather was won the small town, and there is pictures from this small town historical society that had pictures of your grandfather. Right, yeah, OK, explain to me why that's improbable. That seems actually very likely. Right, If your grandfather is from a

small town and they have pictures from a historical society of that town. I would expect your grandfather, there's a good chance he would show up at it, right, I'd be weird. Or if he wasn't from that town and he happened to show up in it, right, I'd actually think that'd be more weird. But it's actually more it's more reasonable that he would show up in it because he's from that town. So, like, can you explain to me where where's the improbable part coming in? Maybe I misunderstanding. My

grandfather was a Pennsylvania's small town patrolman. He really wasn't nothing. And the guy in Kentucky had it. And then the girl at Staples, she said to visit her sister, I don't Ohio last Christmas, and her sister's boyfriend had that same picture hanging on the wall in her bathroom. When I told the picture to having blow it up and have a couple of competa. So somebody else had that same picture that was unrelated and that's where the improbability comes

in, is that right? Yeah? You know, like say, I was surprised when he told me that. I said, Wow, it's I don't know how you know, And I'm okay, So yeah, Okay, they're in a different state and they have this picture. Okay, now I'm understanding. I had to. I had to kind of put that together a little bit on my end. So that so that makes sense. That is that is improbable. You're kind of you're in another state and you're seeing this picture that you happen to to see, but they happen to buy a picture

from a small town historical society. So again, that's that is that is a bizarre coincidence. But I am having trouble seeing how that could be a

miracle in some ways, because again, something could just be improbable. Right when you think about like the lottery for example, Uh, there's the chances are more than a million to one, right, I mean very very improbable that you win, But yet somebody wins the lottery, right, somebody does end up getting it, So I mean it does happen, right, So what if this is just an event that has nothing to do with God whatsoever? Like, how would we know the difference between God being involved or God

not being involved? Hey, let me give you another example. Or my sister passed away about certain No, no, no, I want to know what this example? Right, how do we know the difference between God being involved and God not being involved. You just know it. I mean, I was fifty two years old, I never thought anything about my grandfather. My mother was the only child. She never spoke of him. I never

thought about him. But that's not true, child, because you said you started thinking about him when you were two years old, and you thought about him a lot throughout your life. So I mean, what do you mean you didn't talk about him? What do you mean you didn't thin about him to fifty two when you said that, you you've been thinking about him you

whole life. Look, I'm gonna posit one last thing because we are kind of we are, we are kind of moved going on, and before I kick it back over to Dan, I just want to say, you know, you're talking about a small town in Kentucky and a small town in western Pennsylvania and small town in Ohio. And you know, back in the nineteen thirties, small towns in the Midwest were actually kind of popular and they shared

similar cultures. So for your grandfather to be part of a historical society, that would have been kind of a segue in from town to town, you know, where they shared different practices different different cultural aspects. There's societies operated the same way, and so they might share maybe some similar artwork, photography, things like that. While it might be improbable, it's certainly not impossible.

And I think it's probably all the more likely if we consider, uh, you know, we consider the timeframe that you're talking about in the way that this small town America was set up, especially in that area where there's really not even a whole lot of development now. So that's that's what I want to posit. I want to thank you for taking the time to talk to us. And man, I've heard you say that you were like a bad person most of your life. I just I hate hearing that. You

know, you're you're a human being. You know, we make mistakes. I want you to forgive your younger self, you know, and kind of just move on and I enjoy, enjoy what time we have left, you know. Cool. Well, I'm okay, I'm gonna say good boy to you and pass it on back over to Den. Okay, yeah, real quick, Charles again, just so we can like, let's end it on this because we do have to move on to some other callers. But well, how do we know that this is an event that God influenced versus random

chance. Can we tell the difference? Even I can, Like I say, you don't have time to hear all the things that's happened in my life after I prayed about them. Randomly met a girl that my sister saved her life forty years ago, and I prayed about her one night, and my buddy says, I woke up this morning, I thought about your little sister, Tracy, he says. She's saying the girl's life at the state park up in the mountains from drown And I said, wow, I prayed about

last night. And like a month later, I met the girl randomly. She said that was forty years I was telling her about this story. She saw my God, She sa, I think that was me. I said, really, she said, yeah, that was forty years ago. Then you go, you know, it sounds like other events in your life have also. It sounds like a culmination of events. It sounds like it's not just this one event. It sounds like, in the context with other events

is what qualifies this event as a miracle? Right? Yeah? You know, like saying so many you don't have time. But if we don't have time, unfortunately. But but I want to leave you with this. Okay, if you didn't have the context of those other events, right, if you just had this event to look at, and you're not able to draw upon previous events, you're just looking at this one, would it be reasonable for you to conclude that God was involved? That's all I want to leave

you with. And because that's that's really all the time I have for you today, Charles. But I am gonna let you go. I'm gonna you know, we got all the people I talked to. Thank you again sincerely for calling into the show, and you know, we just we just enjoy the conversation, So thanks again for that. Any other thoughts on that calling Jimmy, No, you know, it seems like he really wants to believe Edie spam. He's pulling from, pulling from everywhere that he can, but

it's just not lining up. So you know, that's basically my take. I think Jimmy, sorry not Jimmy. I think charles Christianity was kind of similar to my Christianity, which is just you do have a sincere desire to believe, you have a sincere desire to be a good person, and the paradigm you have for that is Christianity, right, and it's hard to imagine life outside of that paradigm. I think that was what it was for me and for Jimmy. It's it's hard for us to kind of be like,

well, okay, what about the possibility of this other thing? It seems, I keep saying Jimmy. For Charles, it's it's like, how do we you know, how can we evaluate different points of view? How can we know that one might be more true than another? I think that's a critical skill in sort of evaluating these kinds of claims. But again, we got to move on. We went while on that call, and we want

to kind of speed it up for some other calls. Before we take out the calls, though, we want to show you, guys, how you can support the ACA with a very unique opportunity that won't be around forever. So check out this video we're going to play for you right now. Have you ever wanted to make a permanent impact on the atheist community of Austin.

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let your engraved messages stand the test of time minus commandments. Visit tiny dot cc forward slash aca bricks for more information. Awesome, awesome, and we've got some of the polats, but we'll get him on later in the show. I think because I think we should move on with another call. What do you think, Jamie? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay, let's talk to some more folks about man. Do you want to pick the next one here? Because we got a couple of different ones. I do

you know we had somebody respond to the chat pole Jack. Jack does not believe that circumcision is genital mutilation. Okay, Yeah, let's talk about that. Yeah, we have a champol For those of you who are listening in the audio version of the show. During the live show, we have a champ pole and sometimes we have collegers respond to that chap hol. Today's was is circumcision general mutilation? Jack does not think so. Jack, You're live

on talk even Hi, guys, thanks for having me. Yeah, I saw the poll, and I don't believe that it should be considered to be genital mutilation. Okay, let's let's hear your case. What why do you not think so? I think when we compare male circumcision with with female general mutilation, and in cases with female general mutilation, it's typically like the removal of the entire citerus, it's more akin to like being a unich is,

if that makes sense, whereas circumcision is more like topical. As far as like it, I'm certain sized myself, so like I I don't know, I like my penis, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like it's aesthetically pleasing and also yeah, you know, I want to I want to posit something. If if I have all five fingers on my left hand, Okay, if I accidentally chopped off the tip of my index finger, I would still like the remaining three quarters of the finger. I wouldn't

want to get rid of it, you know. So, I think even though you still have what's left of your genitalia doesn't mean that it was okay for somebody to make a decision to remove part of it before you had the opportunity to kind of make that decision for yourself to be okay with it. Let's say you weren't okay with it, Yeah, and what right you don't really have an option to put it back on, right, Okay? So if okay circumstance and also has some other benefits like reduce risk of getting HIV

or acquire pencal herbies. Okay, Well, even if that was true, I have one partner that I'm with right now that I hope I can stay with with my life, So I'm not really worried about HIV in that aspect of it. But let's let's let's I mean, there are other non benefits to it, right, Like you mentioned, it's a topical procedure, but it also reduces sensation. Right, you don't have the same sensitivity there that

the people do. And the fact is, I mean, the biggest problem with it I have personally, uh that I haven't heard address is the choice that's involved. Right, I don't get a choice in having a circumcision procedure done on me. Neither does someone who has female genital mutilation that occurs, right, you mentioned yes, it is, and I agree with you. I don't think it's quite the same. I do think it's it's it's more severe in most cases. Right, But that doesn't mean that circumcision is okay

just because one is more severe than the other. Right. No, But what you mentioned that because you have the ability to consent to be done to you, that it's wrong. Well, like vaccines, we give children vaccines. They can't consent to that. I guess parents make choose what's bets for them on medicine. Right, Yes, we can argue that circumcision is not medicine is general mutilation. I don't. I don't see it that way. Yes, Why what benefits do I have by not taking the vaccine versus taking

the vaccine? What is being taken away from me? What? What's being taken away? I mean? I agree? Right, you know there is there is some other considerations you can make. You can make it. You can make a consideration with a vaccine. If I don't take the vaccine,

I'm open to risks, right, I'm open to risk of infection. And if I do take the vaccine, there is a very miniscule chance of vaccine harm or I get the but I'm almost always take the benefit of getting the vaccine when I do get the vaccine if I don't receive any harms that come from vaccine injury, which again is typically extremely rare, if at all ever happens. It depends on the vaccine. Am I actually losing anything, right?

I would argue that you really aren't, whereas you're losing something every single time with circumcision. So I feel like it's hard to make that analogy, right, I don't. I don't think you lose something in the same I don't see it that way. I don't feel like I'm disfigured or or I'm mutilated because I was circumcised as an instant. But you did lose something, right, Like, objectively, you did lose something, right, I mean not really like it's it's a tiny bit of skin, but you did lose

something. Is I'm not asking whether it's importance is high, just that you did lose something, which is a tiny bit of skin, and that tiny bit of skin can be the difference between how you experience sexual pleasure for the rest of your life. You know, I would I would argue that has large consequences. I've had sex and it's been fine, Like I had great times, right and I and I'm happy for you with that, And I wouldn't want to take that away from you, right And I think that's the

difference. If if you have a desire later on in life to get circumcised for your own benefits, wouldn't you rather have that choice than have somebody else make that choice when you couldn't If there's more medical compocations when you have circumcision later in life, sure, if there is a time, is there not medical complications in circumcision earlier in life? Can you not botch a circumcision? I mean there's there's there's gonna be complications either way. Can you not get

a vaccine and and and get the wrong kind of vaccine? And again, vaccine injury does occur. I fully admit to that. I have a relative. I have a relative in the fifties was given the polio vaccine and it was like the wrong kind of polio vaccine. Now like the rest like, well, she's really old now, but she has like really skinny arms and like you know, muscular problems because of it. You know what I mean, so that happens too, I'm not I don't know. I'm I can't

evaluate whether vaccine injuries. Again, vaccine injury can reported, but it doesn't necessarily mean that's the causal link. Right, So when we have vaccine injury reports that are reported to the local bodies and stuff, anybody can write that in. There's no you don't have to have medical evidence supporting that you even got a vaccine in the first place. You can register vaccine complaints. So it's hard to evaluate vaccine injury, and there's a reason why we don't have

a lot of information as to its reliability. There are some people, and I don't think this is you, Jack, but just for information's sake for those listening, there's some people that do think we have a higher than average risk for vaccine injury because of the reports that come in. But there's no qualifications that you need to report for injury for most states, right, you could just kind of say one. So I can't evaluate case by case what

happens with a vaccine. But what I can say is if you are making this point that look, we vaccinate people and there's harms, that should make you on my side that should make you on my side by saying, yeah, maybe we shouldn't circumcise people. Then, right, if we're going that route of well, every single bodies should have the right to make decisions for their own body, period, then circumcision as a child would violate that.

And I want to add something too, because because while while we're talking about vaccines and circumcision as a means of bodily autonomy, right, uh, I want to get back to the example of mutilation, like it's you're cutting up and disfiguring the body purposely, right, And I can relate that to our conversation on vaccines too. So essentially, the reason why religious people circumcise their their male children is to have some kind of covenant agreement respect to God.

Right, But what are we really gaining from that? I mean, is that actually happening versus the vaccine polio small parks excuse me, small pox in large part almost one hundred percent wiped out by vaccines, And so I don't think that there's a fair comparison When I want to consider what's better off from my son, Right, should I give him the smallpox and polio vaccines or should I cut off the tip of his penis or the flap of skin around

his penis. Are those equal? Absolutely not, They're not equal. I am saving my son's life potentially in one aspect, and in the other, I am taking a choice away from him that he can later make if he grows up later and decides. Look, I'm a believer and I want to have this covenant with God in the way that the Hebrews said that we should. Then that is by definition or or by his right the way that he should do it. But I should not cut up his body and disfigure it

without his permission. And people want to claim, you know, special pleading. Well, this isn't disfiguring. This is God. You know what. God has never shown up and done anything good for me right let alone. I mean, if God wants to have a covenant with me, he should give me my skin back that he took from me in the first place. I respect you guys a lot. I'm also an atheist. I don't believe

that people should get circumcised for religious reasons. I'm saying that if the studies are correct, and it does reduce risk of getting HIV, and it does reduce the risk of getting HPV, and it does reduce the risk of getting herpies, and it does help with cleaniness, and it can prevent somemosis. And if it's aesthetically pleasing or whatever, I don't I don't necessarily see a problem with it. And yes, you're right, somebody can get circumcised later

on when they're eighteen plus. Sure, I mean, but there are more complications the older you are. If there is a good time to get circumcised, it is the younger you are. And I really don't want to go down the rabbit hole of vaccines because it seems ikey to me. I don't want to be like labeled the vaccine weirdo or something. But well, you mentioned it, you mentioned it. We just want to blige that's all,

you know. I totally understand that. Jet. Yeah, but like, if the studies are accurate, right that, Let's say that you're right there are health benefits to circumcision risk. You you're less likely for HIV, you're less likely for herpes, you're less likely for these things. There are some objections to that, but for the sake of argument, let's say that this

is true. There are also other methods by which you can prevent those things, namely condoms, right, namely you know, other types of antibiotics and medication that you can take. I mean, there are alternatives besides making a life quite frankly, life altering choice. Right, And while it may be esthetically pleasing to some, it's not going to that's that's that's an American sentiment.

I think for the most part, there are other countries that do not have practices of circumcision that do think the way that a lot of Americans look are weird, right that I think that's a cultural thing. At the end of the day, I'm going to want to lean on the side of people being able to make their own choices with themselves, as opposed to having that done for them and then having to wonder later in life, well, what if things were different? Uh? And why why couldn't I done? You

know, I have had things differently if I was born somewhere else. Because for the vast majority of people that are not circumcised, they're not getting kirpies and they're not getting HIV, and they're not experiencing all these potential ailments. They are living you know, presumably normal sex lines. I don't know, but uh, yeah, I don't know. That's that's my take on it. Jack. I'm not sure if I could elaborate more than that. What do you think, Jimmy, Yeah, I think I agree with you there,

and I really appreciate Jack's call. And you know, Jack, I appreciate you saying that you respect us A lot that goes without saying. You know, there's no ill will here, so we might get a little passionate as something, especially me, but you know, I'm not not disparaging you in any way. So I really appreciate the contribution and the call, and you know, keep following us, keep keep watching, and keep calling in. Yeah, we do have to let you do because we got to talk

to some other folks. But it was a good spirited debate and hopefully we've made our points. Clare, I think I think Jack is. I think Jack is making the most reasonable case you can personally for circumcision. I do. I just don't think it's good The case is good enough. And that's nothing on Jack. That's just I just don't think the cases is demonstrable, and that is it complicated? Is it little? It's sticky? It is.

I think it's stickier than most people give it credit for it, but I still air on the side of, Look, this is something that by and large is going to be something that you're not going to regret. I don't think I think the regret for getting circumcised is more so than the regret of not getting circumcised. I'm not sure if I have ever heard of the case of anybody saying, man, I got I was at risk to this thing, and if only I was circumcised, that could have prevented it.

I just don't think people think that way. I think it's more of a case of, man, I had this procedure done with me without my consent, and now I'm never going to know what it is like having it. I think that's the more common response, right, what do you think? Yeah? And you know what, it sets a dangerous precedent because we really need to redefine bodily autonomy in general. You know. So if we have, if we have this precedent taking place that parents are allowed to remove parts

of their children's bodies or alter them in any way. Uh, you know that, where do we draw the line? You know what? At what point do we start giving people the right to make decisions for their own bodies? And yeah, I think circumcision is a very worthwhile conversation to have amid the the other, uh, you know, swath of conversations we're having about bodily autonomy. Yeah, and and and that's and that's like talking about vaccines,

right. That is like anti vactors will make this point very clearly, which they say, well, like you are violating the bodily autonomy of children, right, And it's like, okay, well it gets very messy there, right, because you aren't making children sometimes without their consent. Sometimes they have us and sometimes they're okay with it, but that it's not the same thing as consent. Right. There's different language that's been developed around that.

But that's neither here nor there. I think I think we've made our case as much as we could on that, and I think we should try to move on because we got a lot of people that want to talk to us now jury there. They're they're trumping at the bit to get some of this action that's happening here. So before we move on, I want to point out that every single month we've got limited addition T shirts. And it's October

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good, especially if I'm there then you know it's really good. And last week, before we move on, I just want to remind you guys to support us by liking and subscribing the video to the channel and enabling notifications. We want to hear a comment below, of course on your favorite caller, and you know our prompt this week. We want to hear what do you think of that caption or what do you think of that video video? What do you think of that picture? And give us your best caption for it.

Okay, so with that done, let's talk to some more peeps. We got a bunch of people who want to talk to us. You want to pick another one? Actually you don't. Actually, I think I have an interesting one. I have Alex from Sweden. Looks interesting to me. Alex and Alex from Sweden. Let's go to Alex from Sweden. Alex, you are live on talk even. What's up up guys? Thank you for taking me on. Yeah, it's going good. I just I was thinking last week of calling in. I just had a question. I'm a I'm

atheist. I try to truth, but my thing is I want to find the truth of things, and I tried to I thought for the most most I don't want to go into politics. But most of the time I find myself agreeing to a lot of things on what we would call sterotypically sterotypically the right side. But that then they start talking in religion and I'm like, well that's where you loose me and I to go on to the left.

So I'm all over the place. But my question really retains too well when I talk to people, and I tried to if I were to, what is it called, like strong man my opponents, I would say that if there's no claim for reason to be used used as to justify God, like I have some I have some Christian friends of me and they they never said that, Okay, Or you could say one of my friends he says, it's it's not that, it's not that reason isn't good and you can't use

reason to get somewhere. It's that you have to forego reason and just trust blindly. Kind of I don't know if you're familiar with Churkey Guard, but it kind of reminds me a way of what he believes in that you have to take the leap of faith. And what I'm I know that because what you could say to that response is that you could say, well, we know that reason has brought us so much more. And I wouldn't deny that. As I said, I'm an atheist. But yeah, what I'm what

I'm kind of getting is that there's not really anything. It's everything is really just bush right. It's like, yeah, reason and reason is really good, but as a mean of as a mean of faith, if all I had to do was believe and believe beyond the reasonable, I could I could see that kind of be an argument that okay, reason I where somebody says to me, well, I foregoing reason, I believe just to believe. And yeah, if you have some words, I'm kind of rambling right here.

I know it's it's it's an important point. So so why are you asking, maybe why is faith such a virtue? Is that kind of your question? Why do people value faith so much? I actually think it's why why do you well? And also why if you're coming from the Christian perspective, what is what is reason such a bookshe I kind of explained in the sense, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a historical reason for this.

And so when we talk about the history of philosophy, particular Western philosophy, we have this thing called the Enlightenment, right, and the Enlightenment is in part this rediscovery of old texts, particularly Greek texts, right where there's they're kind of looking at this Greek thought and there is this sort of rebranding of

Christianity within Greek thought, particularly with Socrates and Aristotle. Right, So like there's this kind of like respect towards these Greek thinkers and through their contributions, but they want to look at it through the Christian lens. And so a lot of Christian theology is and this is also partially pre what we consider enlignment, but particularly post Enlightenment. There's a lot of this happening, right, and so you kind of do run into these sticky problems. This is what

saw on Kirkgard, as you mentioned, was talking about. And Kirkgard is coming late into this conversation. He's like, well, we're having this sort of rationalist sort of uprising here. But in response, there's this period of romanticism, right, And Kirkgard is in the thicket of this, and he says, well, you have to have this leap of faith because that's all you can do, really, And one I think this is this is a

very like, very very very truncated version of what Kirkgard is saying. But Kirkgard is like talking about really his Christian values, in his Christian sense of morality, but he's also talking about his sense of like life purpose and meaning because he finds it very difficult to have a sense of life, purpose and

meaning outside of outside of belief in God. And so now that we live in the twenty first century and we look back at that, that may seem strange, but you know, like it's more of the world was Christian, right at least more of the general surroundings. So it's like, how do we even operate and live and understand a world without Christianity being like backing in

all of this? And now we realize we can do that. One we have the eighthiest community aust that kind of demonstrates that every time a host is on board. But it's like, okay, we have to figure out and develop life principles that that can can operate in a secular way. And that's why a lot of twentieth century philosophy is looking at ethics in a secular world, right, like how do you even develop that? How do you live

that? And what life meaning and purpose is? Like Kirkgard was kind of saying, well, I think the leap of faith is the best way to do it because it's honest, and yeah, it's honest, but like it can lead you to unreliable conclusions. Kirkgard saying that because he's a Christian. He's not saying that because he's a scientologist, you know, or a Muslim. Right, we would say, well, that's silly. Why would you have a leap of faith to be, you know, a scientologist. We

would say, oh, that's harmful, right, that's obviously unjust. But we look at that and see, okay, well that can also happen with Christianity. And wait, now I'm the one that's rambling here, Alex, go ahead, Yeah, so I kind of I understand what you say, but yeah, I don't know. I'm my friends always say you're thinking that, you're thinking so much. You're like, you're going so much into it. But I feel like, I what I really want the answer to which

I don't think you can give me either. But it's like, so picture is, we're we're sitting in in nothingness if and I know this show or not even not this show, but the API experience is saying, like, what even is nothingness? But so if we're sitting in an alchemists and you introduce something, you introduce reason, Uh, you can use reason a lot, but the same to you, you can say that you can use faith

a lot, at least for the people that believe in faith. And my problem with it that when when people kind of argue that it's that it's wrong to believe in a god or it's stupid to believe in the goad, I think it's kind of I should really have thought over this before it cool in because it's it's like a master I'm I'm trying to figure out. Okay, let me put it like this. I it's kind let me respond to that. Let me respond to that, because yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

yeah. So so those are kind of buzzwords that that catch my attention, so I figured it would be a good time to jump in. But being wrong being is it wrong or is it stupid to believe in a god? I would say that that is probably an unfair characterization to people who are actually religious. Now, I know, Dan, I've heard you say in the past that you're not really sure about this term of indoctrination, and you know it could be used either way. Yeah, indoctrination could be used for a

good thing. People who join the military, for example, like myself, uh, volunteer to kind of be a point that out there. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But but but I think that a lot of a lot we can't really put blame on people for believing. Usually I would say it's because people want they want answers, right, and they want to believe something good. They want to be a part of something good. They want to have meaning to their life beyond what they know, right,

Uh, And there's nothing wrong with that. I would I would love to know that everything we do, these menial things on this little blue dot in the middle of nothingness, uh, you know, kind of just well not really nothingness, but you know, on this little blue planet, you know, everything that we're doing, I'd like to think that there is some kind

of importance to it all. And in fact, I don't really know that there is, you know it, unless you consider we want to make make sure that we all have the best experience we can, because otherwise is what are we even doing? You know? And you know, a lot of people, a lot of people, I think, genuinely want that, and they genuinely think that they can get that from religion because while they were taught that that's how you have to do it. But then again, they were

also you know, very maliciously uh exposed to that as well. And so throughout, you know, throughout history, we know we know of that being the case. Go ahead, Alex, I'm sorry. I didn't. I'm just n necessarily necessarily adding adjectives here didn't mean stupid. I don't think that you're saying that about I'm saying that that is a popular characterization. No, no, no, I don't. I yeah, yeah, yeah, so I'm I just what was gonna say, though, I think maybe it makes

more most sense. It's that when when I was questioning, say in the sense that I was literally questioning my friends about Christianity. The one thing that stuck with me was that when I said it's not reasonable to believe in what you believe, and he's like, and he told me he never claimed reason, which I thought was interesting it it was kind of the most reasonable thing

he said was that I believe, I believe. I'm with going. I don't know if that's the right word of like he's he's choosing to toss away, to toss away. It's kind of in Indiana Jones when he takes this step, like literally a leap of faith. And there's something I don't know, there's something intriguing about that, and I'm trying to not not that I'm I'm talking about Oh, it's it's something I now I believe in God all of a sudden, but there's something, there's something that kind of draws me

towards that. And I don't know what the end goal is because that kind of made me see that well, reason for all what it's done, it's it's a label within its league. And I feel like when he said that, it kind of it showed me at least that it wouldn't it. Maybe it's not right to take reason into something that hasn't it isn't meant to have

reason in it, if you get what I mean. Yes, I absolutely understand what you mean, Alex. And it's very interesting that you bring up Kirker Guard, because I'm not sure how familiar you are with his work, But he is exactly positing this. He is saying, what if reason actually doesn't matter? I'd regularly believes right, what if who cares about reason? What if? What if this is fulfilling to me in something that is beyond

reason? Which is an interesting idea and an interesting question. And this is why I sympathize with kirker Gard. In fact, I really enjoyed the label of I was sort of a Christian mystic for a while, you know, christ of a Christian existentialists like Kirker guard before it completely deconstructed because I thought, Oh, this is how I solve my faith. Right, this is

how I figured this out. I can still take solace in the traditions and the virtues that were taught to me through Christianity while also not having to have to be answerable to all the unreasonable claims that Christianity makes, which is quite many. Right, here's the problem that I've found with this and why I haven't stuck with this label. If I have a faith that still relies and still draws from institutions that cause objective harm to everyone around me, I am

still complicit in that. Now. I'm not saying individual believers right are out committing atrocities on a daily basis because they have believes. It's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is if I'm thinking that Christian tradition, particularly Christian institutions, are not only reasonable in some capacity, not even reasonable, but reliable or even just worth our endeavors or worth our investment, that I am

upholding things that have caused harm to people in the past. Right, I mean we don't have to go through all the lists of how Christianity has harmed people, right, not just bigotry, but even in just my capacity for intellectual curiosity. I don't want to pick on Charles too much, right, but Charles, our earlier caller, was very much interested in developing and maintaining

his relationship with God. But when it comes to this interesting scientific question of how did humans actually you know, figure this stuff out for themselves, how do they defend themselves? He was very comfortable with living it up to God and not having any sort of scientific inquiry. And I think that is I think that is something that I like to prevent. I think that's that's sad in a way. There's so much inquiry we can have by using reason and

by using right. Yeah, and unfortunately our faith denies us of that capacity. It kind of says this asn't worth investigation, which I think it is. So anyway, Thoughts Alex, I hid one. Yeah, no completely what you're saying. It's it's so funny you took up. I'm not read chacter as much or CHESTI guard as we say as much as I would,

but I would like to. But I've listened to a lot of lectures about him, and that's kind of the medium I take to take in the most and it kind of you you hit it on the nailing, And yeah, it sounds like he was. He was talking about exactly what what I wanted answer, and so maybe I should read more on that. I had one last question, do you guys work right at the park? And as I

find myself going between, yeah, tried to be a contrarian. I love Christopher Hitchens and how he was as a character, how he could he had so many things like he he was for the invasion of Iraq and it was like it was on the left side, left side, and he hated the Yeah, tyrants. It's just so much character there, and it showed that, hey, you don't have to be this life. Yes, in a

specific zone too, you can have beliefs across lines. But so my question was none of us are cooking, and that's why I lost a good guys, go ahead, Alex. Yeah, sorry, my question my question to you guys, because I looked at you guys, see to me, this atheists Alex is still there. Oh no, Alex, I think we lost. Yeah, Unfortunately, we do have to let you go because we don't really have a whole lot of time left with that call, so I know

you had a final question. Maybe if you want to try to call in a different day, because we're probably gonna talk to some other folks right now, but we do appreciate your conversation. I thought it was pretty interesting and eyes to a lot of particular study of interest of mine, which was Kirker Guard, one of my favorite philosophers to talk about. So I like nerding out about that. Jimmy, do you have any final thoughts you wanted to share on that? Uh No, I don't think so. It was a

good conversation. Happy to sit back and observe. Yeah, yeah, it was really good. Real quickly, we have to read some super chats. We have one from Ben nine Lives, who gives four ninety nine and says, thanks Jimmy and Dan for another great episode. Thank you Ben for donating. That is very kind of you. Another one from this is oh God, I can't read a fan of the Q tube family. Fan of q tube family. I think it's what that says, gave five dollars instead.

If God created men and he wanted us to cut, why did he give us a foreskin? In the first place. And there's the reason for that is because at least the Jewish defense is that it's originally like the circumcision was just a Jewish thing, right, so it's a mark of your covenant with God. And also that you're a people separated from God, because let's go into this idea that God is for the Jewish people like he wasn't for other nations. God was a very local god in that sense, Yahweh was when

you look at it from that Old Testamay perspective. And this is actually why you see one of the early controversies in the New Testament between Paul and Peter and these other early church follows are what to do about the uncircumcised? Do they do you have to get circumcised as a Christian because it kind of, you know, it points to this Jewish identity. So it's it's an interesting thing to see the early history of that. Last week, we got one

more super chats from Van Halen backing Isolated and live tracks. You gave four sorry nine ninety nine said thanks for a great show. I mean atheists because of the ACA. Are you familiar with the whole higher power God slash God concept within Alcoholics Anonymous. What are your general thoughts on it? Thank you.

Yes, We've talked about this on a number of occasions. I've talked about this a lot on Truth Wanted, and I've talked about it with folks who have been in Alcoholics Anonymous and also who have a more experts, particularly Daryl Ray, who has evaluated Alcoholics Anonymous at a level that I can't because like he has degrees more relevant in that area. So check out that episode with me and Daryl Ray if you want a more in depth episode on Alcoholics

Anonymous. I don't know, Jimmy, if you've how much you've been able to talk about it in your syeah. Well, I've heard. I've spoken with people who have been through there, and they, from what I understand is they don't try to push the Christian God or any other God on you per se, but they actually take God and turn it into an acronym for

good, orderly direction. So that is something that I know people personally who have kind of experienced that in Alcoholics Anonymous and tried to use that as a way forward and using the higher power concept to get through what they're getting through. Yeah. Yeah, so there's there's there's that conception of and there's also a lot of reasons as to why alcoholics Anonymous has the God thing. But but more of that is explored in other episodes. Jimmy it is we are

past the hours, so we need to read our top five patrons. Would you like to read them? Yeah, I'd love to read them. Dingle Berry Jackson number one, number two, Oops All Singularity three, Devo, Valjean Collevi, Helvetti coming in at four and then left in the leaves at five. Honorable mention Mark Laguscar. So thank you guys for continuing to be patrons. A lot of repeat names. They're happy to see you back again. Yes, yes, thank you everybody who donates, and thank you to

our top five patrons. We already talked about obviously super chats as we read them as one of the ways you can support the show. But I'll give one last way you can support the show before we move on, and that's becoming a Channel member. If you click the joint button below the video, you will get custom chance emoji's and you will help perpetuate the mission of Talking Then the Athiest Community of Boston. You can do the first of little.

It's ninety nine cents per month or a dollar ninety nine per month as well. There's different levels to that she can do. So consider joining us on that platform. If you're watching this on YouTube, so one of the ways you can talk to us. We are going to talk to some more people. Let's see. Gosh, there's a lot of things that we could talk about. Jimmy, what do you think you want to pick this next caller?

I do. I want to talk to Billy just because he's again in line with our chat poll and took the time to call in and talk about what we asked them to call in about. So Billy from Texas he him, let's see what Let's see what he's got to say. The CDC says that benefits of circumcisions outweigh the risks. Yeah, let's talk about it. You, Billy, you're alive on talk Heathan, what's up? Billy? If you're there, please talk to us. We gotta get him back in

the Q here. We having a little bit of issues today, but we're working on Billy. I think you should be able to talk to us. Now, can you hear us? What's going on? Hey? There we go. Hey, Billy, what's up. Hey? I had my son's circumcised because for no other reason than I was circumcised. But then I was

having a discussion with somebody online and they called me a monster. They said that they said that I portraed and portraed my son, and and after that, I you know that that affected me a lot, and so I did some research. I talked to doctors. I just I went to the CBC. Like like you said, the CBC, I went to their website. The CDC themselves say that the bidding fits out way to risk about the tortra

part. I talked to a doctor and he said that there's peer reviewed scientific literature that about babies and how they're they're in shock for between four and twenty four hours after they're born, So that's that's the best. The best time to do it is is immediately after they're born, because they're in shock,

they don't they don't feel anything. And then the sensitivity thing. I talked to a doctor and he said, imagine if you're petting a cat and then you had the tip of your fingers surgically removed, and then a year later, whenever it's all healed, you pet the same cat is it? Like? How different is it? Uh? He said, that's the that would

be the that would be you know what what it would be like? Uh, in terms of like the sensation part and then or is the opetic thing there are there are studies that that show that up to ninety percent of women

prefer circumcised prenises. So yeah, well, you know what that's that's also a reflection of the times we live in, right, that's changing, I think probably, And you know, I don't think that women are going out and dating men based on whether or not they're circumcised, or or you know, getting married based on whether or not or choosing choosing sex partners based on that. I you know that that could all that could flop. I mean,

and who and who are the people answering these questions. I'd like to do my own poll and see because I've heard I've heard different, but something that's not as strong as I wanted I wanted to make. But Billy, what what caught my attention was the very first thing that you said was I had my son's circumcised for no other reason than because I was circumcised. I mean, what justification do you have for taking that decision away from your son.

And and why is the benefit What was the benefit of you being circumcised to the point that you had to pass that down? You know, I mean, were you really? Was life so great for you because you were circumcised? And on the on top of that, Yeah, well, you know what I understand. I'm not I'm not I'm not trying to trying to, you know, give you a beating here. Uh. You know,

I don't think somebody should have said that you tortured your son. I'm sure that you uh love your son and anything that you have to do with your son it's in its best interests. You know, there's no there's no beef there. But what I'm saying is, well, but you were right, You're you were right though, But you were right. I did it for no other reason than than because it was doesn't mean And that's why that's why it's screwed it right so much, is because did I make the Did I

make the wrong decision? Am I a butcher for doing this to my son? Well we're all guilty of that in some way. I mean, we have we have these customs passed down to us, so we think that we're doing something because we you know, we think it's right. Uh, And what we really need to do is kind of ask ourselves, well, why why did people do this before me? And why was it done to me?

And do I need to do it? You know? The spanking children is another one, Like I I would never spank my kids, but I was spanked, you know, And I'm not just gonna do it for no reason without investigating. But you know, the other thing I want to say is, you know, I you're giving us a lot of piecemeal arguments and opinions really not even arguments from different people. One doctor said the sensitivity is not that big a deal. Another one said that there are studies. You

know, he's talking about the CDC. Well, he said the CDC. He said the CDC, but then gave opinions of people who were not in the CDC. I didn't hear anything that came from the CDC. And you know, I don't even know that the CDC would present an argument that would that would make me say, you know, cutting cutting a child's genitalia is not mutilation. Well let's not. It's it's on their wi. The the

CDC and the American Association of Pediatrics. Uh, well, the American Association of Pediatrics that have a task force for circumcision a couple of years ago and they reported their findings. And the CDC also has information on their website. Again, their goal is to give people information in regarding to make their own decision. They're not going to you know, you could. I guess if the CDC's language specifically says it's it recommends circumcision over not, that's news to

me. That doesn't mean it's not there. I just I haven't heard that that could be true. But I do know that they have information regarding Sorry, Bailey, go ahead, I'm sorry. I didn't mean they don't say. They don't say that, they don't recommend it all. The only thing they say, uh, and it's a quote, is that the benefits outweigh the risks. That's the quote from their website. Yeah, and that could.

That could very well mean that the risks aren't all that grave, but it doesn't necessarily mean that there are all of these benefits associated with it. You know, I think when people kind of come into this discussion about what, you know, benefit versus risk, they're they're considering risks to be you know, something that is kind of monumental, dangerous even Well that might not

be the case, you know. Uh, And so I would just say that while we are in this position where we have a child that is in our care and we can either change their body without their consent or not, I would say that the doing doing so, uh, not only is it mutilation, but it's just kind of the wrong decision, especially when the roots of that decision are, Hey, you know God, it's because of God

and everything like that. So that's kind of where we're at. And you know, Billy, it looks like it's just you and me right now. So what do you have to say about that? Well, I don't I didn't take any type of religious I'm not a religious person at all, So I didn't take religion into account in any way whenever it came to that decision. So, uh, you know that somebody did, you know what I

mean, like some somebody in your history did. Yeah. But but I'm just saying your father was probably circumcised in his father right, and it was probably a result of religion that's just kind of passed down over and over again and eventually it lands on us and we don't even know why or you know, if the decision made was the right one. We just know that decision was made. Yeah, right, and it's a Jewish thing, it's isn't It's a Jewish thing, right, But but I'm not Jewish, so I

mean it did right, right? Yeah, Well it happened when Christianity adopted christian Christianity adopted Judaism and adopted their customs, yeah, or dominic culture through colonialism and you know other means, right, means that also our practices become standard in other non Western countries, right, including that of circumcision, because it's part of the Western medical practice. Right. So that's that's how that

happened. But but I'm just kind of wondering how was it. I wonder how it was influenced by Jewish culture for for it to be because I mean if if if it wasn't, I mean, if it hadn't been kind of adopted, then we wouldn't be even having this discussion at all. It might have sided out the Pruss the procedure might have died out a long time ago. And I alluded to this before the call here, but yeah, there

is uh, you know, if you look at the new Testament. And if you look at the letters, and I understand that, you know, the Bible is not the most interesting book in the world for a lot of people, but there are very serious discussions that are being made. And this made after the Bible was finalized in its current form, by the way,

in early church leadership, but like very serious discussions about circumcision. A lot of you'd be surprised how much the New Testament talks about circumcision, particularly with Paul and Peter and the other folks, because they identify this as a Jewish practice and they wonder should we accept those as Christians who aren't circumcised. And Paul's whole point is like, look, they're not. We are all the same and saved in Christ, So circumcision doesn't matter, and you can kind

of do this and be okay with it. But it was still kind of like, well, we might as well get it done for a lot of people, right, And so like it's it's still adopted to the wider Christian culture. It's sort of like, well, you know, you can either do it or not do it, you might as well do it. I think that's kind of the mindset. So yeah, and it's like and it's like and it's like, let's check your opinis at the door. Yeah, well, at the time, for early Christianity, you're getting adult converts.

Right. For rust of us, it just happened when we're kids. But for them, it's like, Okay, this is where these are adults that are coming in, So you have to get this done later on in life. So what do you do with that? Right, it's a little bit more serious, not more serious, but you know you can't you can fight back, That's what I'm saying. You can't fight back when you're a baby.

So that's yeah. I'll tell you one thing. If I, well, I did have the option, if I was never circumcised, and then today I had the option of being circumcised, I would not do it. I wouldn't do period. I think that's the conclusion most people would have. But I that's my speculation. I actually don't know. Maybe there's studies on that. But there's a study in the Bible called the Genesis where where Abraham Abraham circumcised like two hundred of his servants as adults. So yeah, there's

that being an adult doesn't always get you out of it. Yeah, that's also true. It's also true Billy any more thoughts. Yeah, well, he's young for me to ask now. He's too young for me to ask now, but like later later in life. I mean, I'll ask him because I said that I wouldn't get circumcised if if I had the option today to do it? But am I a monster for doing that to my son? And would I? And I'll ask him whenever he gets older, like did you? Are you okay with skeep doing this to you? Like,

like, how do you feel about it? Think? And I don't think a monster, Billy is capable of self reflection. I don't think a monster is capable of asking the questions that you're asking yourself right now. I'm not saying what you did was right or wrong. What I'm saying is the fact that you're able to consider that now means that you've at least probably grown and try to understand what's best care. The thing is, most people aren't,

Like I don't think most people make good parents. A lot of people just don't. And like the fact that you're asking what's best interest for your son is means you're you must be on the right track somewhere. That's that's the most I can give give you today, at least if that'll help you sleep at night. But Billy, I don't think you're a monster. If that helps, it will, that will. Thank you so much, man,

And I appreciate you. I appreciate I appreciate the input. Guy. Thank you, Yes, thank you, Yeah, yeah, a lot of Listen. There's a reason why we put the questions in the poll. You know. I was skeptical at first when we are like, oh, we're gonna

do these poll questions, I was like, yeah, sure. We get a lot of responses when we do that, and I'm happy for it because it does keep the discussion going to an issue that, again I think is more nuanced than most people give it credit for the circumcision thing, although maybe weird for most people wondering why are we talking about this for so long? Because because it's a big deal. I don't know it's a thing. But anyway, we are. We are close to the end of the show.

I don't know if the crew has given us the green light to go over. If not, that is fine. But while I am okay, so yeah, we actually do have the green lights, so we're gonna take one more call. I think, Yeah, that's cool with you. Let's do it. We go. Yeah, when we're in the queue here, we got Teddy Driver calling in from California. Teddy, you are live on Talk Heathen. What's up? Oh, good morning boys, good morning or whatever

afternoon. Excuse me. I wanted to share a different experience of being an atheist because it started when I was a young child. I didn't grow up in a religious household, although I was baptized and circumtised, but we never went to church, didn't pray, none of that. And on top of that, I spent a lot of time with my three great aunts when my dad and mom wanted to go somewhere, and one of them was really into nature, and one of them was really into gardening and just got me to

open my eyes to the natural world. They had a neighbor next door with a wood shop, and I learned all about woodworking and stuff. And here I was, you know, like six years old. It wasn't until I

was eleven that my dad decided I needed to go to church. So I went up the street to the Lutheran Church, and after two Sundays, I said to myself, these are nothing but sapery tales and I never went back again, and my parents didn't do anything about That wasn't until I was sixteen and my dad and mom were fighting every weekend and a Catholic friend of my dad got in to go to church and see up priests and blah blah blah, and he came home and announced it and I'll never forget these words.

We're all going to get into this together. And I got sent to Catechism twice a week with a wet behind the years priest from cont Corn, Ireland, and we went around and round every single time, and finally it dawned on me, there's gonna be trouble at home if I don't accept this, And so I went ahead. I got baptized, confirmed, I took comfort to communion, blah blah blah. It wasn't until after I was married that I just walked away from it. And uh, that's interesting. I can't

I'm not able to tell you was your wife? Really? Was your wife? Was your wife Christian? She was raised in a in a Catholic home? Not How did that go over when you when you walked away from your religion? How did that affect your marriage? Oh? I had done that before I got married. Oh okay, really, I mean and I should say, no, we got married. Yeah, my first wife was I get a Christian and but we had to get married in the Catholic Church and

that was over in it. So, Teddy, You're your story sounds a lot like mine, because like I was about nine years old when I started realizing, like, man, I don't believe any of this stuff. This sounds like complete, complete garbage. But it was kind of a process. I mean, I was nine when I started questioning it and twenty seven when I made my full uh my my full converse conversion, if you will,

to to being an atheist. And so it was a long time, a lot of questions, a lot of back and forth, a lot of influence for my parents. And you know, it's funny because I grew up Lutheran and we weren't really all that religious either except for that one hour a week, that one hour a week when I was in Sunday school. And I want you to know that I went around with the with the teachers too. I was kicked out a religion class twice. Twice. I was kicked out.

I want you to know that I'm very proud of that number, and uh, you know, I hope nobody's beaten my record at that school. But you know, it's funny. Maybe maybe it's because we were you and I are both Lutheran or former Lutheran, that we had a similar experience. But you know, I felt like at home I was told I needed to be Christian, and I was told that we were Christians, but I really didn't see that playing out in the way that we lived our lives. You

know. I remember this one time in church where our pastor was like berating the audience, uh for for watching Seinfeld, and I thought that was so odd because my parents always watch Seinfeld and they still watched it. And I said, well, then this must not be that important. You know, pastor doesn't like it, but I'm and Dad are cool with it. So yeah, maybe what the pastor has to say, uh, you know,

doesn't doesn't really hold any weight. And that's important too, because you know, our actions are are obvious to kids, you know, kids are watching us, and so I just thought it was interesting the parallel between between the lie that you had to live and the lie that I had to and kind of in the end, we were both able to you know shed those shrouds. Jimmy, I gotta talk to you about this. Hold one, Wait a minute, Wait a minute. Yeah, what was it? What was

the problem with Seinfeld? I don't know. I have no idea. I mean they did a lot of things in there. I mean there was there was one where Jerry stole the ladies marble rye and ran down the street. Unlike Christmas side that wasn't talking about masturbation the whole time. I guess it is a little respect, you know. Yeah, yeah, but like he just has issues with like Jewish people. Maybe that and that's the that's the I'm just I'm just speking. Well, I'm sorry to steal. Go ahead,

Teddy. When I when I was very young, when I first started realizing, I didn't even know the word atheist. It's never been spoken. You didn't hear it anywhere. And even though I had given up my religion or given up religion false religion, I just never know knew the word until maybe ten or twelve years ago I got to hear somebody turned me on to

Christopher Higgins, and that did it. I saw him. I've seen every single video of him, and I've been watching you guys and Matt on the line, and I just sit there and nod yes and not know the same as you guys. But I found it difficult to visualize what it was for somebody to deconvert absolute they were an adult or something. Seth Andrews, he was in his thirties, so it's just a different experience. Yeah, well,

I want to put you onto somebody. I want to put you onto somebody named objectively, Dan who runs runs a great Hey, look, have you ever seen truth wanted? Great? If you have nothing to do on a Friday night, or better yet, if you have do have something to do on a Friday night, you go ahead and cancel those plans. He tuned in, tune in the truth wanted, the truth wanted, like I've

been doing now. But you know what Teddy now, well, you know, you know Teddy's right though, because I found the ACA and I it helped me, you know, kind of through my transition. I knew the word atheist, but it was a devil worshiper. That was the definition associated with that. You know. Yeah, I think I think that's the value I hope that we can provide on shows like these is to like when we say, promote positive atheist culture. That's not just a buzzwords, like we

really mean that. We wanted to show like, hey, you can live an ethical life, sometimes a divisive life, right. You may you may not agree with all of our takes, but like at least you get to have a take, right, Like Christianity doesn't even let you get that right, Like it's like, oh, you're this other thing. Well, you know, you're not even talked about. Like I had the same experience.

I didn't know what an atheist was. I didn't really under fully understand what that word meant because every time I did hear it, it was always another Christian telling me what that was. It wasn't an atheist themselves telling me what they believed or didn't believed and everything else that comes with that. So yeah, I'm glad that you had the experience that you did, And I imagine

it's not as unique as you might think. I imagine bet there's other people in the commons section or in the live chat right now who say, yeah, actually, I kind of had a similar thing where there's kind of a Christian social socially constructed idea of a Christian Christian identity rather than one that you may, you know, sincerely believe. I think that's that's that can be quite common. But yeah, as someone who did, I guess I was

an adults. I was like twenty twenty one. Some people say that's not an adult. I was an adult legally that happened to me. It was quite difficult for me to manage that, although a lot younger than like say thirty with Seth and some other folks. So there's different, different life experiences to compare there. But yeah, thanks Teddy, thanks for sharing that story with us. Well, I a few years ago, maybe three years ago, I actually came to the conclusion that I'm not an atheist, I'm an

anti Seistan. You can be both. There's something saying you can't be both. Yeah, that's that. There's nothing. There's no rule saying you can't be both. I don't think those are mutually exclusive identities. Yeah, keep keep watching our shows, keep watching our shows and call back. Yeah, thank you, ted of course, thank you. And with that we're gonna be on the closing end of the show. But listen, Jimmy's gassing me

up here. Sorry, you need to go, say hey, go watch Jimmy Jimmy, and Jimmy's been been doing some stuff on some of these shows. Okay, Jimmy, Jimmy is is an up and I want to say up and comer. That sounds so demeaning. Jimmy. Jimmy, Jimmy's a full fledged host here at Talkiethan now. So he's he's he's doing his own stuff. Go watch his episodes. Okay, he's he's making the rounds. But thank you, thank you very much of course, of course, and uh, with that, we are getting to the tail end of the show.

Jimmy, thanks so much for joining me today for great hosting with you for the first time on talk Ethan, I should say, and even though we are at the end of the show, just a reminder, we still have our talk Eathan Timmy's psychment. We're gonna put that picture again on the screen so you can comment below what is the best caption for this image. I think Jimmy actually nailed it. I honestly don't think you guys can come up with a better one than when he did for this because I think it's

hilarious. But leave your caption below, and of course please like and subscribe and do all the fun YouTube stuff. If you haven't already, I think we need to show some love rings at this time. What do you think, Jimmy, let's do it all right? Okay, warmer hands up? Oh as an early early it was a pre release sort of love ring. It was a prettymature well that's I don't have my foreskind So there there's that. Jesus oh man. Jimmy, uh we are I'm available on at on

Twitter at objectively Dan. Where can people find you at? Jimmy? Yeah, I'm on the nonprofits quite a bit. I will be back on Talk Heathen with Ben pre Veterans Day for a Veteran's Day show. I am so happy about that. And I am also on Twitter or the platform formerly known as Twitter. I think it's just x now. But Jimmy Underscore, Junior Underscore and why all right? Thanks for being with me here Live in New

York, Dan, Live in New York. Yeah, I wonder how long I wonder if it's a violation of FDC like regulations if we say we're like live in New York and we're not actually, but there's only one it's it's yeah, there's only one way to find out, folks, If you don't believe, this is your community and we appreciate you being here. If you do believe, we don't hate you. We're just not convinced. There we go, There we go. We gotta thanks for watching, everybody. I'm

objectively Dan. This is Jimmy Junior. We'll see you next time. We want the truth, So watch Truth Wanted live Friday at seven pm Central. Visit tiny dot ccs slash y t tw and call into the show at five one two nine nine one nine two four two, or connect to the show online at tiny dot cc slash call tw