Proof that the Bible is woke. Some eighty two, three and four. Defend the week and the fatherless. Uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed. Rescue the week and the needy, Deliver them from the hand of the wicked. Proverbs thirty one, eight and nine. Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge Fairley, defend the rights of the poor and the needy. I gotta say, I kind of like where the Bible is coming from
here. This book is used all the time, time and time again to oppressed, marginalized people. Maybe it's time for Bible believers to get a little more woke. Well whatever that means. If you disagree, then give us a call because the show is coming right now. Okay, Well, welcome to Talk Heathen. Today is Sunday, September seventeenth, twenty twenty three. I am your host, Christy Powell, and joining me today is anti theist Derek Matthias. Thanks for being here, Thank you. I'm overjoyed to be
here. Thanks. Yeah, Well, this is our first time actually doing a show together. Tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do and I guess what kind of questions we're looking to get into today. Okay, sounds good. My name is Derek Matthias. I have a channel on YouTube called Underlings and it's basically an anti theism channel. I cover both atheism issues and topics and evolution and anything related. My background is as
a naturalist. I have a degree in evolution. Basically that my bachelorist in evolution and I studied in the Charles Darwin Institute in the Glaucos Islands and I was a naturalist, worked as a naturalist teaching evolution on a cruise ship in the Gloucos for a year. And yeah, that's my background on this topic. Man, there are so many things I know I would love to ask
about. I've been reading Friends to All all summer and getting very excited about evolutionary psychology, comparative psychology, what we can and can't learn from the animal kingdom. But I'm interested to hear what our callers are interested in, Like, what do you guys want to talk about? We are here to take
those calls. This is Talk Heathen. We are a product of the Atheist Community of ASTA five oh one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation of religion and government.
Give us a call with those calls, because we are a live call in show with open lines, So get your calls in now while you still can at five one two nine nine two four two, or from your computer, you can give us a try at tiny dot cc slash call th And before we get started, let's look at the answers to last week's talk Heathen to Me, our weekly segment where we ask for viewers to chime in with their answers to questions. Last week we asked you what is a sin Jesus
didn't intend to die for. Our number three answer this week came from j D Martin. JD says Jesus didn't die to forgive call center scams, but when he returns, he will need to break in that new sword on something. I'm with you. I think that's a fair plan. Number two came from Chuck Guidos, who says Jesus was willing to die for someone's sin of picking up sticks on a Saturday, but surely he didn't mean to include picking up a fumbled football with the end zone insight. So that time of year.
My team is getting destroyed already in college football. You know what, I think. I'm just ready to move on. I'm a little bit too worked up about it. Our number one answer from last week came from senlt says, Jesus didn't intend to die for killing someone's fig tree because he was hungry and it wasn't bearing fruit out of season. It's cold, it's cold. That actually is a pretty good call out. Well, this week, Derek, We're interested to hear from all of our viewers, but I'm gonna
start with you. What is a lesser known fruit of the spirit of the spirit? Well, the only spirits I know are alcohol related, so I would say durian, chetty, moya, and dragon fruit. How are those were lesser known fruits? I think that those are a number of things that could probably still be distilled, and I'd be interested to find out and see what we can find from that, what kind of spirits can we get. If you are listening to the sound of my voice, chime in in the
comments section of this video let us know what your answers are. Possibly be featured in next week's episode, and without a whole lot of to do, Derek, if you're good for it. We've got calls on the line. We've got so many interested people I think, ready to call in, and so many questions that all ask you if we don't hear from our viewers, So let's just start off with the folks we have on the line. Agreed. Yeah, I'd like to start by checking in with Drey from Texas.
We spoke a couple of weeks ago about the ethics of porn bography. Andre, I'm curious what your thoughts are where you'd like to go with this today. Well, how you doing. I want to start this solve by saying I did not know that you were going to be on a show today, so it's purposed like a crazy coincidence that I have. I have the information that you're asking for on the prior show. I'm glad to hear it.
I'll just catch up some I don't mean to interrupt you. I definitely want to hear your take on things, but I'll catch people up a little bit after our conversation a couple of weeks ago, after a couple of the calls from that show about pornography, I ended up writing an open letter on my website about this topic because I am somebody who is for better or for worse, have found myself in this spot of like wanting to advocate for people's sexual
expression, I'm wanting to advocate for sex workers and these different things. And that may mean talking about pornography to the internet, but it feels like every time we do, the conversation really turns into, well, porn is bad. Well, why is porn bad because God says it's bad? Okay, why should I care about that? Well, it's bad because it's bad for you? Okay, Well, how is porn bad for you? Because it's
bad? And that type of circular answer and reasoning is such a part of this discussion that Drey, I'm really hoping we can push past that part today. So am I fair in kind of framing it as porn is bad? And here's why? Is that the conversation you're looking at half today? Yeah? But I have scholarly studies to support my position. Cool. Yeah, I don't have time to read those on air while we have this discussion, but I'm curious of what you're looking at, and I'd be excited to see
what we can share. I will give you the study. So I got Internet Pornography and Pedophilia by doctor Hilder Wood. And the other study I have is Pornography as a Public Health Issue Promoting violence Expectation of Children using adults by Elizabeth Taylor. Okay, yeah, so Dad, I'm not going to have the opportunity to like really get into the veracity of these studies. Who were
they by, how were they conducted, were they properly pure reviewed? Those are all questions I'm not equipped to really answer while you and I are having a live conversation. But tell me what you've seen in these studies that makes you feel as if as if corners quote unquote bad. And I'll read an excerpt for one of the studies. Yeah, let me give you, like maybe a sentence or two. This is a live talk show, so I want to keep things humming. But I am really excited that you've brought some
meaningful evidence with you. Okay, So this is an excerpt from what is I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I got This is a very long study. This is an expert from Elizabeth Taylor's study, so from her conclusion. So in her conclusion, one of the one of the main concerns was that it sets perhaps the most concerning evidence that pornography is starving to expand, managrom sexually takes it to the few it every is still considered table, such as sex
with children. The role of PCP presenting two as legitimate sexual partners for men has encouraged the proliferation of extensive international network sharing massive quantities of cuntent, driving demand or the creation of press content. The children abused in the process are film to grow on others. That's just excerpt from one of the studies, but our will send both of the studies to the email that you would give me. Okay, yeah, and I'm happy to look at that in a
little bit more detail. I do want to I don't want to play silly word games today, but I do want to start off by really meaningfully dividing up the idea of pornography a form of entertainment, a form of sexual expression that is made in responsible and appropriate ways, from child abuse. Child abuse is wrong. That's clearly the point here when we talk about porn is good
or porn is bad. I don't ever want to leave any lingering doubt about whether or not abusing a child on film is quote good in any form or fashion. But what I seem to be getting from you is that because pornography exists, that it leads to the creation of more of this childhood sexual assault material. Is that sort of the crux of what you're positing here. That's
one of the conclusions from the study and IM and the other study. I just have excerpts from it because that study, I don't have access to it because I don't I'm not currently in rolled, so I don't have access to the study by Heather Woods at the moment, but I have read experts from her being cited in public articles. Sure well, I definitely find value in that. If we were playing this game a little bit differently, I feel like I could call into your talk show and also cherry pick a bunch of
research that says there's no connection, that none of this is happening. But let's try and play with the tools that you have brought to us, the toys that you're bringing along today, and see if we can't wrestle some of this out. What is the method of action that's being presented in this study? What is it that demonstrates that there is a connection between an increase and the availability of say Internet pornography and the eventual creation of more childhood sexual assault
material. I can't say, I can't say fully what was the methods of study, So I'm just gonna go on a limit just because I know that the Jennifer study cited Heather study, so Heather is a clinical psychologist. I don't remember what necessarily Jennifer's credentials were, but I know that her study was heavily cited from scholarly resources. So that's why I'm saying it would be better. I just wanted to I just wanted to come on here. If I
can present the information, and then what's I guess. I guess once you get a chance to review the information, maybe you get to email me back. I really don't want to have like a moralistic standpoint on this. I didn't wanted to present you some research that backed up my position. Sure well, I suppose I will keep an eye out for that email from you. You can certainly hit us at t at Atheist hyphen Community dot org. I
will be more than happy to look over what you send over. Perhaps you and I can have a little bit of an email discussion if there is anything there of value, I'm more than happy to publish that to the Talk Heathen fan group on Facebook so that we can bring other people into that discussion.
If there's, you know, something that kind of surprises me, or something that maybe challenges some of the things that I've spent years advocating for here on the ACA's channels, that's something I'm more than happy to read on air after I've taken a look at it and gotten and understand of what it is. But softly, now, just for the for the purposes of this conversation,
which we can, you know, maybe wrap up. If that was most of what you wanted to present, I guess I just sort of want to check in on what you think is at work here, you know, having done a little bit of research. I'm not going to hold you to any specific numbers or whatever else, but what is sort of your understanding of the way that children are being harmed by the I guess wide spread availability of pornography in our world, because I do think that there's harm there that needs to
be discussed. But I'm interested in your position on all of that. I don't I don't like to add if I may please, just a brief question, are you advocating for the removal of or the non dissemination of pornographic material of any sort. I won't. I don't have a concrete position on what I would do. I just have a moralistic position on how I feel about it. I have studies to back up my moralistic position, but I do not have a concrete what do you call legal? Legal? Not legal?
I'm just talking moral. Yeah, I mean, do we sort of into it on a certain level that having widespread access to R rated action films? Uh, you know, watching Neo or John Wick mowed down hundreds of bad guys over the course of an episode, does that lead to increase gang violence for instance? Kind of? Maybe, you know, there is some interesting data presenting. Possibly possibly, but kind of also maybe not? Really is
that the nature if you're concerned here? Not the different things comparison, because not just the act of fictionalized violence. Pornography is an act of actual sex action most of the times hardcore six That's what I'm doing. Okay, So it is hardcore sex if if we take the camera out of it, if we take the Internet out of it, if two people, three people, fifty people go into a room and have quote unquote hardcore sex. However,
we're choosing to define that notion. Does that make the world a worst place? Let's see, we're not talking about sex in private, We're talking about the public displays that's easily accessible by children. So the hardcore sex being on film is what makes it important? What about writing? What does that also count? Written porny? What written porn as well? Are you including that not just the visual I don't have a I don't have a position on writtenforn
Well. The reason I'm asking that is that if you are advocating against pornography being displayed disseminated worldwide, then you'd have to be against the Song of Solomon in the Bible, which is all about some serious hardcore porn. So I think I think would be removing all the Bibles from all the hotel drawers. And yeah, I mean that Bible has incest in It's got a ton of rape, there's lots of torture. I mean, some of it gets pretty
hardcore. We're not listen, listen, we're not talking about we're not talking about erotica. We're talking about actual porn videos, internet porn. We're not talking about written form. Yeah, I'm pushing back against your definitions but I'm okay with, say, limiting this to something very specific. Yeah, I'm not trying to move the goal post. I'm trying to get maybe a very clear statement. I hear you. I would like for this to be your a moment, to give me a very clear statement, like what is your
what is your eventual premise? Like what is the thing that you want the world to believe because you believe it, whether you can support it or not or anything else. Let's just start with I believe that, and maybe we can go from there. I believe that porn is harmful to the vast majority of the population of the world. And it's okay, yeah, how like I don't disagree at this stage. But why is it harmful? How is
it harmful? In what ways? Is it hurting people? I've name won because it also but for some reason, well I'm not going to say, for some reason, the fact that it's yet hard to what do you call it? I can't think of a word. I'm sorry, but you can't regulate it. It's not regulated. And since it's not regulated, how pornography gets put in the mix, rate gets put in the mix. Actually, porn hub is going through an issue, right now because a lot of their
videos happen to have actual rate and they didn't have I hear you. I'm going to push back on that a little bit. It's much more nuanced what you're actually discussing here, if we're being sincere about it, Facebook has a much bigger issue in terms of sheer numbers of spreading any any of the types of materials that we're talking about, the childhood sexual assault and other forms of
rape and abuse. There are very meaningful issues with the way that the Internet has created possibilities for data to be shared very freely, and it is true that there are meaningful conversations about free speech and about moderation and about how we actually manage and stem the flow of some of these things. To say that
it's not regulated is a little bit ridiculous. It's more an issue that the regulation is really awkward, and that we've done a very poor job of managing what we do and do not allow to be widely distributed in the end on the Internet. But again I'm still a little bit challenged with how we're getting from pornography exists, or very specifically, videos of people having sex are on the Internet, and therefore childhood sexual assault, Well, just make the case
for f to legislation around it. I mean more regulations. I would say different regulation for sure, but no question, there's nuance here. There's meaningful laws that ought to be written. We've advocated for that on well, on this show, but in particular when I was working with secular sexuality. You can check out the back catalog for a lot of the things there. We do need some better strategy for how to keep childhood sexual assault from happening.
It's happening, there are people filming it, that those films are making their way around the world, and this is a meaningful issue, And I don't know why we can talk about that issue in the same conversation where we're talking about erotica, where we're talking about forms of expression, where we're talking about sex being filmed. That's not the same thing. People shooting each other in
a video game is not the same thing as like actual street violence. We can't compare those two directly, and until we establish some sort of causal links, this conversation is not really helping inform me about it. I remember talking about video games anything fictional. I'm talking about total nonfictional, nonfiction visual sexual X because I'm expressing to you that they're the same things, right, The two performers the same thing. When two performers are on stage acting, they
are acting. And if an actual penis actually penetrates an actual vagina, is that still acting? I mean, you know, it's sure there's maybe nuance in all of this. And again, art is a very tricky subject, but ultimately that's what porn is. It's art the same way a TV show is art, the same way a movie is art, the same way a video game is art. Pornography is art. Art is not the same thing as violence. I can, I can, I can make you can make the case for that. I can, I can. I can rock with
that. But my whole thing, I'm not talking about the the the quote unquote artful types of nudity. I'm talking about the hardcore porn is really the issue. I mean, hardcore porn is still actors acting. You know, That's That's one of the reasons I like to jump towards John Wick. I don't mean to let my crush on Keanu Reeves like overtake my professional objectivism. But the reality is there are people who are in those films who are doing
these incredibly athletic things. They're jumping over live explosions, they're holding real guns, like there's incredible work happening. People are getting punched, and sometimes those punches land, and sometimes people get hurt. It's the same thing when you're on the set of a porno shoot and two actual people are having actual sex. We did an episode of secular sexuality at one It was awesome and it was thanks performance that we're not accounting for. Ye done wick suit somebody in
the movie. Nobody's getting shot. However, at a point actress of a point actress or actor actually has an STD and they have and they participate in the act of set, and somebody accounts that's not that's not fictional. We account for that. But to follow that logic, if two people kiss in a PG family film and one of them have has a herpes outbreak or the
common cold or the coronavirus, we're also transmitting that. So to just leap towards the scary monster of sexually transmitted infections really feels like a cop out. Friend. Yeah, anything even not even kissing, if they've got if they've got COVID, or if they even have a cold, they can spread it around through the entire shooting arena. So yeah, I wasn't using I wasn't using STDs to make my case. I was just using STDs to sold the
actual sex acts happening. And it is not a fictional sex act. This is an actual, real sex act that happens in porn. Are wrestlers actually wrestling? I mean, I get it, I kind of do. But I don't have a problem with sex, and so I don't really have a problem with people having sex on or off camera. And none of this gets me too, right, none of this gets me to assault. None of this gets me to assault of children, which seems to be the problem that
we're looking to solve. So how is the solution of removing all internet porn from the Internet solving the problem of childhood sexual assault. Let's keep in mind a lot of clergy are guilty of abusing children sexually, and there's in theory they're not looking at pornography when they do that, or it may not be the motivating factor for that. It exists regardless of pornography. All right, Well, Dre, I'm gonna maybe give you the last word here. If
you're still on the line. I will keep an eye out for your email and anybody who is interested in this conversation the way that I know, I am keep an eye on the talk Heathen Facebook group and we will kind of keep that live if we can. Okay, well, I believe that maybe all from Dre for today. Sorry, guys, I don't mean to always be that guy talking about porn, but like, if you want to give us a call, We've still got more lines open. There's plenty of fascinating
conversation to be had around evolution, around moral philosophy. There is so much for us to discuss, and we hope that you will join us in that discussion. But for now, let's maybe touch in with Felix and Florida. Yeah, all right, Felix, you have some concerns about the destruction of the nuclear family. Yeah, yeah, tell me about it. What are
your concerns, What do you see and what's happening. I see that secular is a normalize divorce, and they're saying, oh, okay, if people get a divorce and children living two separate households, it's fine, it's just didn't work out with the parents, But that's not something that should be normalized. We can't glorify single motherhoods. Okay, let's start there. Okay, I heard we shouldn't normalize it. It's not a good thing. Why children.
I also would like to jump in on this at some point, but yeah, go ahead and answer this question first, if you would please. Yeah, children going through a divorce, I've been having to live in two separate households. They spend less time with both of their biological parents. Or if a child is just with their mom and not with their father, they're
spending less time with their father. And divorce does this to children. So it's not good for their development to spend less time with the parents, and the split itself is traumatic. Yeah. Sure, I mean, I think what you're getting at is that children are experiencing distress because of a lack of connection to their parents. By that same token, jobs that make you work more than forty hours a week are bad. Hobbies like golf are bad.
I mean, I don't really think that you can say that divorce leads to bad outcomes for children, because we don't really see that in the research. There are some interesting correlations and things, but plenty of other factors that need to be brought into this, Derek, please let me let you take over here. Yeah. I also wanted to point out that the children who are living in a family environment that's hostile, violent, angry, that's not healthy
either. So sometimes the lesser of two evils is to split up. So as simple as that, I agree, if there's abuse in the home, divorce in the lesser of two evils. But that doesn't mean that divorce is a good thing or this should be normalized. We should prevent abuse, not say oh if you also mentioned you also mentioned that it's a secular thing.
I think you mentioned at the beginning, right, But if you look at the divorce statistics, as I understand it, the ones with the lowest divorce rates are Atheists, Lutherans, and Catholics, those with around something like twenty one percent something like that, whereas Evangelicals and other Christian faith denominations have higher like around forty five percent. So this doesn't sound like a secular issue. This sounds like a people issue. Jacular doctrine say oh, it's okay to
good a divorce. Most Chris say no, divorce is not of God. I'm not aware of a quote ute secular doctrine that I've ever read that says divorce is good. I can actually point to a number of different religious contexts that would express the idea that divorce is at least allowable, or acceptable or sometimes necessary. Last week, Jim on This show detailed some data around the
reality around who is and is not getting divorced. I don't really know how to help you here, Felix. I also want the best thing for children. I want the best thing for families. I want the best thing for everybody. And in a lot of cases, the best thing is for two parents to no longer be in a relationship with one another. That is absolutely
true in a non zero percent of cases. And I think that we have to look at this in terms of, well, yeah, sure, fine, no one should ever ever ever get a divorce unless they want one, in which case they should probably get one. I mean, isn't that eventually where we come down to on this, when we're saying, well, no one should get a divorce except in this situation, this situation, this situation.
Let's not normalize it, but let's allow people to get it when they should or when they're supposed to. But like, let's not make it normal. Let's let's only let people do it under very specific circumstances, and then we as outsiders who don't know anything about what's going on in their relationships, whether they're abusive or whatever else, we should shame them for it rather than normalize divorce. Yeah, you're present any different from what I'm saying here.
Also, it might be worth noting that people who went off track here in my mind, go ahead and continue, go ahead and answer this question. Let me reconsider that, Felix, can you walk us issue that we're solving. Yeah, I didn't say I didn't say anything about shaming people for getting a divorce. I didn't say anything by making it illegal. That would take a huge authoritarian type of state. Well, what's the difference. What's the
opposite of normalizing? If we shouldn't normalize, then we should fill in that blank for me. We should work with social workers and churches too when people want to get married, to say okay, is this a healthy relationship? We should try to bring counseling to people who want to get married and have children. We should try to just minimize terrible situations that we put children in. That's actually what I wanted to jump on there, that I went off
on a slight tangent about if I may continue with that. One of the things that so many religion to, especially Christianity, is to frown upon marriage sex before marriage, and as a result, you find a lot of people getting married young because they aren't used to having they haven't had sex. They're not they're not they're desperate for it, but they're not allowed to have it, and thus marriage is the only option that they're supposedly morally able to do.
So if you give them the let's say, the freedom to have sex in a safe sex environment, then people are more likely to make better decisions when it comes to marriage, you know, not marrying out of horniness, but marrying because they really care about someone and want to live the rest of their lives with them. So that would be one thing that would be helpful, and religions don't go along those lines unfortunately. What do you think, Christie? Yeah? No, I mean I think that it's all fair to
say. I like, I am one of those marriage therapists that you are advocating for, Felix, and I want to help people with their relationship. I want to help people who aren't married yet decide whether or not they would like to get married. I'd like to help people who are married figure out how to have the healthiest, happiest relationship that they can. I work with people who are considering going through divorce, and I don't ever tell them no,
don't do it. And I also don't tell them, yeah, you should definitely do it, but I help them come to the conclusion that is best for them, which is exactly what you are advocating for. It sounds like you're saying, on one hand, like it would take a really authoritarian government to force people into being able to end their marriage, or maybe they shouldn't get into a marriage unless things are perfect. But I just don't see
that that's what's happening in these counseling offices. I don't think that that's what social workers are doing in these situations. They're helping people use the tools that they have to make the best possible decisions for themselves. That's the system that we exist in. That's the system I want to exist in, where people are doing what is right for them, and ideally they have good support from their community, from their culture to help them make these decisions comfortably. That's
what I was talking about. Giving support to people and while they get married, trying to minimize divorce as much as possible, because saying it's not a good thing, it's not the ideal thing, and it's just when Nilly get a divorce, whenever you want. Promoting that type of culture isn't healthy for society, not for children. What do you guys agree that it is harmful? Most children do not want their parents be a divorce, that they preferred
that their parents stay in a healthy, nothing permitted relationships. You know, I don't know that I could answer that, and I don't know what that answer would even mean if I could, but I would be pretty uncomfortable with actually making that assertion even if we could make it. The children want their
parents to stay together. You know, just speaking exclusively from my own personal experience, I was so fucking relieve when my parents split up it was very much the right thing to do. It has dramatically of my relationship with my mother and it has made her life a thousand percent better. I would seconds,
yeah, situation, but there's plenty of data. Yeah, So, Felix, I'm all for people making the best possible decisions for themselves, and I am all for giving them tons and tons and tons of resources to do. So do we agree on all of that? I agree, Okay, well, fair enough, not the outcome, Felix. I would encourage you to really focus on your own relationships and how you can make them as positive
as possible. To focus on the relationships of people you love. See if you can't offer some kindness, some support, some resources to the people you care about, perhaps the people whose marriages are a little bit shaky right now. But I would definitely encourage you to let go of this belief that staying together is the only or the best thing for everyone to do, because that belief is not serving you, and it is not serving the people in your
life. It's clearly not something we can support with any meaningful scientific data, and so I would challenge you to let people make the best possible decisions for themselves. Yeah, let people live their lives. That's fine. I'm not going to force people how to live. Cool. Well, all right. I don't know if you've got anything else here that you want to really jump in with, or if there's more to be said on this topic, but I'm glad that we can at least agree that people in marriages are the ones
most qualified to decide whether or not to stay in those marriages. I just have one more questions. I'm sure, yeah, what's that most of in many of these situations, their decision whether to stay together or not almost excludes the children's will be it's just the relationship. Shouldn't their mentality be that? Okay, the kids should be a factor. Yes, children should be a
factor in whether or not parents decide to end a marriage. I agree with you, and as somebody who I'm just making this shouldn't here, Felix, but I'm going to suggest that it's highly likely that I have had intimate conversations with a great number of people about whether or not they should stay in their marriage. Certainly I imagine more than you have. And I never once have had one of those conversations with anybody that didn't involve concern and consideration for the
children involved. If you're saying, as a society, we're too careless and flippant with divorce, okay, all right, I don't really know what to do with that information, but maybe it is worth kind of being careful in the way we discuss divorce and the way we represent it in film and all of these different kinds of things. But I don't think that there is this massive problem that you're presenting of people getting divorced without quote unquote thinking of the
children. Every single time I have ever sat across from somebody who is making the difficult decision whether or not to stay in a marriage, their child has been, if not the only thing on their mind. Certainly one of the most important things to suggest otherwise, I think is to really misunderstand these people that you are suggesting that you want to help. Yeah, I'm not sure
where you get the idea that they just disregard the children. That seems like, I mean, even in popular TV you see that all the time, with the kids being involved in the decision making process, So that seems a little odd. Do you got anything else for us, Felix, or is that sort of where we'd like to leave it. I think that was the topic of the conversation. Thank you much. All right, Well, fair enough, thank you so much for calling. I'm glad we could we could
see our way through all of this. You have a great day, all right. Well, it seems like we are actually in the rare situation, Derek of maybe possibly making a little bit of headway, particularly with some repeat callers. I don't know, maybe Drey just hung up because we weren't making headway. But the discussions a little bit more interesting. So I'm here for
it. Yeah, no, I'm I'm fascinated by it. It's it's interesting to me, how you know, they'll often come in with a certain negative viewpoint on a particular topic, and it turns out that there's a lot more in common than they actually seem to think. Sure, yeah, and when we start picking through all of the exception finding and all of the if then types of statements, we eventually get down to, oh, well, you know, this bad thing happened to me and it was upsetting to me.
And I don't necessarily experience the nuance in other people's situation that I experienced in my own, So, you know, put yourself in somebody else's shoes, or maybe just trust that these other people also have a rich and complicated internal life and that they are doing their best to make a complicated decision as well as they possibly can. I don't know, that's a that's sort of the
Riggerian counselor in me in all of this. But it's important to me that we all take it for granted that everybody around us is just kind of doing their best, and sometimes their best is total bullshit and we can call that out, but that doesn't mean that we know better necessarily. Amen. Well, we still have some lines open, We've got some colors we're going to speak to in a moment, but I want to make sure to highlight this
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dot cc forward slash ACA bricks for more information. Beautiful, that's definitely an opportunity to check out. I haven't gotten to see the live bricks in person just yet. I'm really excited to see what it looks like once we begin to etch and install and everything else. I think this is a great way to support our community, and let's leave it there while we touch base again
with our repeat color Otari from the Nation of Georgia. Otari, I understand that you would like to talk again about pornography, and I'm just gonna give you the same little caveat I've been giving on this subject. I don't want to hear porn is bad. I would like to hear porn causes distress, because and then we can maybe discuss it. Is that a fair way to frame all this? Hellll de tress you mean, I mean I want to talk about sexual assault? Yeah, you're you're interested in talking about the harm
caused by adult films. Yeah, yeah, okay, tell me about it. What's the stress? What's the harm that you were seeing in the world. Yeah, But if I may before I get into my topic, may have something grlit to prior call. You know, I'd like to keep it. I kind of on a one track here if we can. What was on your mind when you decided to pick up the phone today? Alright, twelve? So here this party buy American Psychological Association. It said, meta
studist starts a compilation of stabists. As far as I know, a meta studies are compilation of statists. And it concluded that a little doubt that on the other, individuals to consumt pornography more frequently are more likely to hold atitus contusiltal aggression and engage in acts of sexual aggression. Sure, I'm struggling a little bit with some of the connection in some of the words that you said,
But I believe you're referring to a study that I've actually read. And there is some research to indicate that people who use a lot of pornography, particularly violent or aggressive pornography, are also people who are likely to hold violent or aggressive views that we might consider misogynistic or aggressive towards women. There's a lot of complication and nuance in that correlation. But is that sort of what
you're what you're getting at here? And what you were talking about it, well, I was really just meaning to to sort of summarize what I understood you suggest, and what I am looking to point out is that there does seem to be some amount of research and there's a lot of issue I would say, perhaps with a lot of this research that suggests that people who are likely to use a lot of pornography are also likely to have violent viewpoints or
be more willing to endorse a violent perspective when it comes to women, when it comes to sexuality, and there is a lot of nuance to get in into all of that. I think the most important word here in all of this is the word correlation. I'm going to see if I can't pull something specific up here in just a moment, but I wanted to hear from you Otari, whether or not that is sort of your concern and the position that
you're taking here. I mean, this is a sappy and the specifically meta stati and the this is pompile of the statist of the chron that's the awful results of adult films, and if you're usually said, most people don't sis is aggressions in adult films. Here's another stati which estimates that nearly forty percent
of adult film cell contents such aggressions. Okay, so again, what we're ultimately saying is that there's a correlation between watching sexually aggressive pornography and holding the view that women are perhaps deserving of sexual aggression what we often refer or two as the confluence model of sexual aggression that they called there, but they that
is not research that I'm aware of ever having existed ever. In fact, this is something that I looked into to a fair amount of length within the last couple of weeks and have some kind of ready to go studies and things that I may be able to share with you if you would like to reach
out over email. Yeah, I'm not entirely sure how best to help you or what I might be able to explain or describe to you now, other than to say, if there is any amount of data showing that watching violent pornography then leader later leads people to be more likely to commit acts of violence, I've actually seen a lot of data saying the exact opposite is likely true.
So if you want to maybe again send us an email and let me take a look at what you're looking at, maybe help you understand what it is that you're reading, or share some of it with our audience with a little bit more nuance. I'm happy to help any way that I can, or I'll share my studied system. Okay, well we will. We'll take a look and appreciate you sharing that information. Thanks for giving us a call,
Derek. How does that notion land with you at all? Just this sort of correlative idea that because pornography exists, that children are more likely to be assaulted, that women are more likely to be assaulted. Does that pass the smell test for you on any level? Is there well smoke to that
fire. I've been a writer for many years and having read a gazillion basically novels in fantasy science fiction that's contained sexuality and all that, you'll see people acting things out, so you know, like I don't know, if a kid reads a book on Valiant Night slaying a dragon, they may act it out as a kid. I was briefly banned from Watch in the teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles after being caught karate chopping my refrigerators. So you know there is
a monkey see monkey? Do component to humanity? Right? Again? Does that mean that you know playing Halo or watching John Wick leads to violence, doesn't mean that watching violent pornography whatever that actually means leads to assault. More tenuous, right, yeah, very tenuous especially. I mean, you know, there's a difference between adults and children when it comes to sex and violence, of course, and I think you're going to find that. It's.
Yes, you're gonna even see adults acting out things that they might see in pornography and the like. I mean, hell of Larper's live action role players, they're acting out of fantasy adventure. You'll also see the same thing with uh those you know those uh what's the term for it, the martial arts with using using armor and wealth fencing and things along those lines. No,
I was thinking more along the lines of the actual enacting combats. But oh yeah it starts with an h. I think, sorry, it's eluding me at the moment. But yeah, so people will act out things, and when it comes to sex. Sure, if someone sees some interesting act in
a porno, they may act it out in their regular lives. But to go to the extent where you're saying, well, you can't watch this because that might influence you in some way, you'd have to eliminate all fiction, all movies, books, there would be no you'd be to coin a phrase, you'd be destroying the soul of humanity by getting rid of all those arts. Yeah, okay, there can be some negative aspects that perhaps come out of it, but you'd have to really establish that well scientifically in order to
justify removing that from the public sphere. Yeah. No, I am well aware that the last thing that the Internet needs is another middle aged white guy defining art. But I very much think of pornography as a form of art, and art as a form of play. You know, it's it's something that mammals do. We are afraid of snakes, and so and a. You know, a young kitten needs to learn eventually to not only be afraid
of snakes, but possibly to be able to kill one. So the mother cat finds a snake, wounds it, brings it to the kittens, and they play around with it as a way of working through the fact that snakes are scary, as a way of working through the skills that they need to eventually be able to utilize as a way of forming bonds between one another.
Like play and sexuality, pornography, art, all of these things are just ways for us to sort of work out the fact that we're afraid of dying, and so we kind of like to see John Wick live on the edge. You know, we're afraid of finding relationships, and so we want to watch romantic comedies and see people love each other and connect. We want to maybe have the emotion of what it was like going on our first date now that we're on our fiftieth year of marriage. Like even what is all here
to do is appealing because it makes you feel certain emotions. I mean, we are emotional beings. It's nice to have those emotions titilated in various ways. So even horror, even fear, is an excitement. It makes one feel alive. Yeah, you don't want to eliminate that absolutely well, all right, let me take a quick break here to mention our new limited edition T shirt one that reads this month in the Talk Heathen store, Jesus can't
answer prayers because the WiFi in heaven sucks. Love that you can find that at tiny dot cc slash merch Aca to get one now. And of course I want to take a moment to remind people about our next upcoming live show. If you happen to be in the Austin area on September twenty fourth, twenty twenty three, consider joining us for a live broadcast of Talk Heathen and the Atheist Experience Talk Ethan this month is going to be hosted by Objectively Dan
and Sophia Spina, as well as AXP hosted by Dan and Jamie. The Blimelimy doors are open at noon. Really hope to see you there. I know you hear us talk about it each week, but it is absolutely a really great time and I think it brings so much new energy to these shows that we've been doing for years now and gives us all a chance to form community around him. It's definitely a great time. And with that, let's talk to Dave in India, who mercifully I think has something for us other
than Sex's bat him. Okay, Dave, what did you want to talk to us about today? Hello? Hey, so visim my understanding. I see that atheism is the denial of a metaphysical substrate. Would that be would you say that's a great understanding? No, not at all. Yeah,
I'd need to define all of those terms to get there. But why don't you walk us through you mean, so, I mean like an inverted pyramid, like an inverted triangle, And the more you go down, everything gets smaller and smaller, and it gets much difficult to measure each of those things. So if you go beyond a certain point, there exists a layer which
I understand as metaphysical substrate, which is like before the Big Bang. So and I would I would understand that that is something which cannot be explained by science, but that might be God itself, like that might be the God. So just just wanted to get your thoughts on that. Yeah, Derek, I think you may have more experience with both metaphysics and substrate than I
actually do. Are you making header tails of this? Yeah? Yeah, Well the first thing is I think you're working under the assumption that atheism is the denial of God's rather than just the lack of belief in God's There's a huge difference there. One is a belief, in the others a lack of
belief. And I would think you'll find that most atheists are in the category of lacking belief, although there are some that actually actively don't and some are more nuanced in the sense that this God has testicle predictions that end up being wrong. So I actively disbelieve in that God, but this one does not. It's too nebulous. So we just don't have an opinion on it,
or we just have no belief in that. That's one second, and so second is the beginning of the universe doesn't have anything to do with atheism. Atheism is the lack of belief in God's Whereas what you're talking about is physics. Go what happened before the Big Bang? If before actually makes any sense? For all we know, one of the simplest explanations that we have that's natural is that we have the quantum realm that exists. We know the quantum
realm exists, We've got very good evidence for it in our universe. And what if it extends beyond our universe and our universe was just a fluctuation that resulted in our local universe and could result in many more universes. If that's the case, then what we have is a completely natural explanation that has no
need for anything metaphysical. Yes, it's true we don't know where this quantum realm would have come from in the first place, but that's for the You've got the same problem if you're a theist, where did God come from? What caused him to exist in the first place? You can't really answer a mystery by evoking an even greater mystery. It's easier, smarter, more logical to say, I don't know, simple as that. What do you think,
Christie? Yeah, I'm curious how comfortable Dave is was sitting in that space, because it does seem like you have the simpler model and none of this really gets us to Therefore God, Dave, what do you say? Yeah? Yes, So like quantum, what I understand is that quantum is just a measure. But it's just that it's so small that we name it quantum. But there isn't really anything in nature that we can point to and say that this is quantum or that is quantum. It's it's still that the
particle is so small that we have defined it as quantum. But what if we go not exactly and particles pop in and out of existence at the quantum level, these virtual particles. If if particles can pop in and out of existence out of evidently nothing, then why not universes? Yeah? So so like ether? Right? So ether would which is counterspace, would be that particular place from which the particles pop out of and then also pop back in
two so every like twenty yeah. Ether. Yeah, that that concept was disproved a long time ago, one hundred years ago. I think I not a physicist, so I can't say for certain, but that was the idea of where the medium that light traveled through. I believe right. It doesn't do things like the base. Yeah, so like the base, the base, I would say the base substance in which everything exists is either because even Tesla quoted in one of us uh lecture, I think that light is nothing
but a sound wave in the ether. So it's it's yeah, bringing up you're bringing up something from way, way way in the past. That was a misunderstanding of how physics worked at the time. It's like bringing up leeches. Well, no, leaches actually are useful. Bringing up the idea of humors in the blood causing people to be hot headed or sick, or the light that's discredited in modern in modern medicine and the ether, correct me if
I'm wrong. Anyone else who's more versed in physics and I am. That was one of those long discredited explanations in physics Dave ultimately only check in with where you're coming at this from. What is your expertise in physics and what is it that you have discovered, and what you understand about what you've discovered that makes you feel like you have found something that isn't really being noticed or discussed by the people who are in that field, by the people who obsess
over these things. Yeah, I'm like, but I'm just a normal Joshmo to be honest, But like, I watch a lot of different stuff. But here's two things that I will point out. The first thing is that wireless TestU figured out wireless electric transmission, and that is only possible if there is a medium like ether, which is there for it to happen. And the second thing was I used to like two three years back, I used to meditate a lot, and during one of those meditations, I was able
to experience ether in my neck while meditating. It was basically a state where I could see like a small energy, a small empty ball in our neck. So so basically what I'm saying is that the base substance, but no matter which the realm it is, whate whether it's a different renewverse or disuniverse, would be ether, and on top of that we have different different particles,
so that's like an inverted triangle upside down. Sure, Dave. I mean I appreciate that you are a average Joe punching above your weight class by studying these really complex notions of physics. And I have to point out that if you are coming to conclusions that are not well supported by the actual titans of that field of intellectual study, that there's likely something that you've missed. And I'd like to add in here, yes, the actual I did a
quick look up here. Yeah, nineteen o five Albert Einstein made it the concept of the ether irrelevant with his formulation of special relativity. So yeah, that's not a thing in physics anymore back then, not now. Yeah. So but that's the thing, right that if you go to black hole, then all of the current physics space, right, like even Einstein's physics, and all of them fail if you go to black hole. So yeah,
they are right. But what I've seen is that when you speak with an atomist or like materialists, they always deny ether and they don't acknowledge its existence and they try to replace it with some other substance. But business there's no evidence it exists. That the problem. So yeah, that is the thing, that it's counterspace, so like we cannot I don't think we can conceptually under like imagine a picture of it because all we can imagine is like space
everywhere, but we can't really imagine space. But ether is counter space. So yeah, I just I believe that it is there. But yeah, maybe I need to do more research on that. I would advise that because it's there's just no evidence for the ether. It was it was a proposed explanation no longer needed with the development of special relativity by no other than Albert
Einstein himself, So yeah, I would look into that. Yeah. And really, as you are sort of being curious right and doing this not for work, not for research science, but for your own curiosity, I can understand why you would want to go down some you know, tesla rabbit holes
and start looking at some of this more like esoteric and outdated science. It makes for a good story oftentimes, and there's certainly value in looking at Euclid's geometry and looking at you know, like some of these like older forms of science and seeing what holds up and what doesn't. But if you are drawing your conclusions about the nature of the universe, about you know, whether or not there is a god creator, and some of these like really big picture
important questions. You should probably be looking at the latest and greatest. You should probably be looking at what the people who really understand these subjects are saying, and be I don't mean to be at all rude about it, but very humble about the conclusions that you're drawing. Is that a fair framework for me to offer you days Yeah, yeah, no, that that's perfectly Yeah. I'm just an average guy. I don't claim to be an expert in anything, but yeah, I am curious, as you pointed out, and
that's why I like look at all this stuff. But yeah, yeah, maybe I should, I should do more research, and yeah, I look at it that more. But yeah, keep reading, keeping keep having fun. You know you're doing good work. But consider your sources, right right, right, that's perfect awesome, Yeah, all right, I think I sure love to ask you to give us a call back after you have a
little bit more under your belt. I know, we definitely have some folks here that would be very interested in talking you through some of the physics of this a little bit differently and maybe with a little more nuance and what we're able to offer, But for now, really appreciate your time. Yeah,
thank you appreciate. Okay, by h you have a good one. Well, take a quick moment to read a super chat that came in earlier today from Ben nine, who offered four ninety nine stating the Vatican has been abusing children long before porn was on the internet. Apples and oranges definitely a fair point. I'm not somebody who wants to just throw his hands up in the air and say, well, humans are just awful and always have been and
always will be. But when we talk about sex, we get so uncomfortable that something like pornography is something that we want to just blame all of society's ills on. Or if we had a bad experience with divorce or something along those lines, we'd like to say, well, then nobody should ever have a divorce because this is what's wrong with the world today. And you know,
life is just a little more complex than all of that. Always shades of great, Yeah, certainly, Well, we've had some fun conversations today. Definitely, there is a lot that we are going to work to keep
going. You can find more on some of these topics, maybe share some of the research that I'm skeptical exists but that has maybe been brought forward today in a lot of that is going to be including my open letter in the Talk Heathen community fan page on our Facebook fan page at tiny dot cc slash fb tg, and you can also follow us the atheist community of Austin on TikTok. Talk Heathen specifically has a TikTok at Talk Heathen. You can join
us there for the pre show that we do every week. Richard Jilliver has been doing those and bringing in a lot of very interesting conversation, so we'd love to keep these discussions going. After we wrap up our show here today, Derek and I as well as Richard are going to be in the atheist community of Discord for a live after show, So if you were watching this
live on September seventeenth, we hope that you'll join us there. Otherwise, Derek, we've been kind of bouncing back and forth between a variety of different things, I hope, yeah, yeah, and having a little bit more nuanced than maybe the last time I was on this show, which is such a relief to not just have to keep hearing porn bad, porn bad, porn bad. But for the things that we've maybe touched on, what do you feel is maybe important to revisit and get a second pair of eyeballs on
it, or maybe just a little bit more attention to good question. Well, the one that keeps popping into mind for me is that every time somebody wants to bring up something bad about pornography violence, that when it's they're trying to get rid of it on a biblical basis, they don't have a leg to stand on because the Bible is full of that shit. So sure, yeah, that one always needs to be in the back pocket to bring out
when somebody makes one of those assumptions. Really, all of these conversations can kind of fit into that box of like, okay, so there is a problem. What does God actually have to do with that problem? Like we've pointed out, being an evangelical Christian does not protect your marriage from divorce more
so than being an atheist does. Yeah, that must drive them nuts because quite frankly, yeah, that goes so against the whole idea that biblical marriage is the right way to do it, and that's the happiest way you're gonna put your focus on the family. Yeah, it definitely creates a great number of issues for us all to be working under these assumptions that they Biblical way
of doing things is the best way of doing things. That idea may have made a little bit more sense when you were in a small village and trying to compare your understanding of your village to the village across the river and what that actually looked like. But here in modern world, we actually have the data. We have the capacity to see what happens when pornography is viewed as evil in a society or is made illegal in a society, and then that
changes. Does it immediately lead to some huge uptick in divorce, in violence, in assault of children. No, it's complicated. There's nuance in all of that data, but there's certainly a lot to look at. Well. Before we begin to wrap up today, I want to make sure to mention all five of our top five patrons. We've got a little bit of a shake up this week, as left in the leaves, coming in at number
five. Number four is Calvetti, hell Vetti, number three, DeVore Valgine number two, Oops all Singularity and again holding on to that top spot is Dingleberry Jackson, with our honorable mention this week being Neil the six oh four Atheists, our good friend and buddy. Otherwise, I suppose I appreciate everybody for giving us a call this week, for working to help us advance the
conversation a little bit beyond the whole sex is bad. I want to say on a personal note, that these conversations can be so restricted to that idea that it can seem as if we are in two separate camps of porn good porn bad, and all of the nuance about how sex workers are being treated gets lost. All of the nuance around becoming hyper fixated on a outlet or a form of expression that can damage your marriage or damage your relationships gets lost.
There are very real conversations to be had about the way we moderate the Internet, about the way we allow information to spread freely, and about the labor practices that we operate under. There's a hell of a lot to be said here, and I just appreciate being part of a community of free thinkers who are trying to have those conversations. So I really am grateful to all
of you for calling in and for joining us. I want to say thank you to Derek for being here, as we have lost his connection briefly, and I suppose I will just take this as an opportunity to give out some love rings and to thank all of y'all for being a part of these conversations. We so appreciate you being here with us and look forward to seeing you next week. We want the truth, so watch truth oneted live Friday at
seven pm Central. Visit tiny dot cc slash y t tw and call into the show at five one two nine nine one nine two four two or connect to the show. I'mline at tiny dot cc slash call tw