Talk Heathen 07.31 with Doctor Ben and Christy Powell

Everyone open your bibles this morning to Hebrews eleven one. Now, faith is being sure of what we hope, for being convinced of what we do not see. Really, I mean, I'm all up for being optimistic, But are we just supposed to believe everything that said to us? Because we're supposed to believe everything that isn't observable and other verses they tell us to live by faith and not by sight. So is the Bible condoning living in a fantasy? I don't think we should really live by faith. I mean, the

evidence is going to lead where it leads. And if something isn't able to be detected by realistic means, then what's the point in believing it? If you think that we should live by faith and that we should believe in things that we can't see, call us because the show is starting. Now, welcome to talk. He Then, today is Sunday, August six, twenty twenty three. I'm your host, Doctor Ben, and joining me today is the one and only Christy Powell. How are you doing today, Christy?

I'm doing great. I had a very rare and precious weekend home alone to myself, and so I am well rested and shot out of a cannon this morning. Let's do it. Amazing. I'm super excited to be on a show with you, and I can't believe it's August already. I feel like part of this year just flew by. I mean, maybe it's just me, but it still feels like June to me. I gotta say, this summer is dragging on here in Texas world really everywhere where we're having historically record

breaking heat. Climate change is a real right. I guess this summer has felt very long for me, is what I'm trying to get to. I'm quite ready for the fall. Yeah. Oh, I'm an autumn person as well. But hopefully it's funny seeing our different perspectives here. Maybe I'm just so busy. But if anybody wants to talk with us about the weather or anything, just getting plased on calling and talk about the weather. But this is a Collin show and we have open lines, so if you want to

call in, now is a great time talk. Heathen is a product of the Atheist Community of Austin five O one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation of religion

and government. And like I said, talking than is a call in show and we have open lines, so get your calls in at five one two nine one nine two four two or form your computer at tiny dot cc slash call t H And what happens a lot of times if people will call in near the end of the show and we don't get as much time to talk with you. So if you really have a burning question you want to ask, call in asap because the sooner we get you on the show, probably

the more time we'll have to have that discussion. But in the meantime, we do have our famous segment talk Heathen to me and I want to find out what you all said in the comments for last week's question. So last week we asked you wrong answers only why is God hiding from us? And our top three answers were pretty good. So in third place from this past week was Jay Ray says, don't predators always hide from their prey? Which this is a great one seeing as kind of what we're what we're going to

be talking about in a little bit. But what are your thoughts on this one? Christie? I mean it hits. I appreciate a little bit of snark early in the day, like at the beginning of the broadcast, I'm here for it. And number two is Jason Katz that says God isn't hiding, he just goes to a different universe in Canada, you wouldn't know him. Solid work. I love this one. The your girlfriend in Canada that right, she couldn't come. She's busy modeling. She she could make it

to this middle school dance. Yeah, I promise she's absolutely real. Just she lives in Canada and goes to a different school and all that. And in first place we have Scottish hear saying why is God hiding from us? He owes Mary two thousand years and child support? He holy ghosted her. There are a multiple multitude joke right, like, there are multiple puns in

here and I love this. Any other thoughts on this one only that this is great work and I really appreciate everything that the audience puts together on these. Has been a really fun segment for the last several months. Oh yeah,

the creativity in the comment section is absolutely amazing. And if you have some humor or some snark that you want us to read out on the air, if you're one of the top three chosen from this next week's talk Hey, than to me segment, then your name and your comment will be read on the screen. So the prompt for next week is what is a prayer request that would raise eyebrows in a place of worship? So if you haven't answer to this question, put your best answer below in the comment section,

not in the side chat, because we won't read it there. In the comment section below. After this goes uploaded after the show today and next week we'll reveal the top three answers. But in the meantime, I want to ask Christie, what is a prayer request that would raise eyebrows in a place

of worship? You know, I gotta be honest with you. I had a hard time coming up with anything that I wanted to put four because my first thought was all of these sort of gossipy bits, And then I realized that going to Christian schools and being in the church for most of my adolescence,

that's all prayer requests were. Anytime you were asking other people to pray for something in a group setting, it was always really just a way of sort of pointing the finger at you know, Oh, my poor friend Sally like, can we all pray, Dear Lord that she stopped being a terrible person and apologize for the things she said to me? It was just gossipy bullshit. And so with that in mind, I came up with another one, and then I realized, this is an actual prayer that I used to

pray all the damn time. But my thought was, Dear Lord, if it be within your will, please make the Bible make any amount of damn sense whatsoever, because that is something I used to pray all the time. And yet, if you think about it, kind of ridiculous that we would need some magical force to come in and make the perfect inherent word of God means something right. That's absolutely true, and I think I've had similar prayers

in the past related to that. And I think, I mean, as much as we normally give very funny answers to these kinds of questions, I think it's very telling just I mean, how realistic this answer is, and how many of us in this community have had similar prayers like that. If God really wanted us to understand what was being said to us, and if he cared about getting any of us to heaven, if that's the end goal. Then shouldn't we have clearer instructions and not have to wonder why none of

it makes sense? Yeah, no, he says, You know, faith comes from hearing and from hearing the word of the Lord. But I spent a lot of time listening to it, and apparently you also need to get some sort of divine intervention. You also need to be in fellowship, Like there are all these things that you have to do to make the words on

the page make any sense. And you know, that's the only book I've ever felt that way about, right, Like I've never picked up any textbook or any other piece of fiction or anything else and thought to myself, if only the Lord would reveal to me what these words mean, rather than you

know, like a dictionary. Right. And that's something we hear from a lot of religious leaders and devout religious practitioners, is that, like, well, you're just an atheist because you don't understand this book and you haven't prayed for it to be revealed to you, or like you don't meet certain criteria for it to be revealed to you. Like, but then what's the point

at all? Like if I don't have a chance at all to understand what's being said to me, and you need that understanding in order to be a believer, then why are you even trying to convert me in that case, because apparently there's no chance that it's going to happen. Yeah, no, fair to say. And there's no other place in life that we use this skill. However, we wanted to find faith and we want to talk about trust and all these different things that can get kind of convoluted and pulled together.

There's no aspect of my daily life that I have to take on faith or pretend makes sense when it just truly doesn't. And I think getting over that particular mind purdle is probably the most problematic or challenging aspect of deconstructing your faith. Definitely, all very great answers for this question this week, So if you have a similar answer, or if you want to even debate in

any of those answers, you can do that in the comments below. And we I hope to see some really good top three answer choices for next week. And it looks like we have a call coming in from a theist and I'm very excited for this one. So I think this kind of goes along a little bit with what we were already talking about. So let's talk to is that Stephen or Stephen? I want to make sure I pronounce your name right from Iowa. And it sounds like you want to talk about the importance

of faith. Stephen. Okay, awesome, Stephen, you are live on Talk Heathen. What would you like to talk about today? Well, I just wanted to talk about how faith is important in the regards of like our identity, right as individuals. I think that if God exists and he's real and he's infinite, that if we were created in his image, that we have value. Right, So if it starts there, we accept all those

conclusions. Yeah, sure, right, And as far as the evidence is concerned, that's just different people's perspective on what they see and how they how

they grow in life and what they like. What I see right now is nature, and I see things I see beauty, right, and so certain things I don't think fall into the evolutionary narrative as far as like forgiveness, for instance, I don't really understand on a social construct how the evolutionary process can can explain things like forgiveness, right, Oh, I can I can

really jump into that. There's a lot to be said there, but I want to not just tear apart all of your individual premises, because you've already laid out four or five things that I might disagree with. What is sort of the central pillar of your call, though, because rather than getting distracted by each plank, what is your kind of basic conclusion that because forgiveness exist, like I'm talking about beautiful, there must be a guy. Yeah,

my world. If my worldview starts with God, then I believe myself to have value and faith will then become important. And learning how to trust something greater than myself, which is part of faith, is also important because if you know, if I believe that I was, you know, and I'm not trying to be like take this the wrong way, but if I'm over an overgrown evolved bacteria, I don't think there's any real justification for doing anything

right or wrong. It would it would really be kind of pointless, and

there really there wouldn't be much purpose to life. Right. Well, I I kind of wanted to jump in and I feel like there's a false dichotomy happening here within kind of your initial argument of saying that basically, like we can have forgiveness, we can have faith in these things, like or we could or the alternative is like believing in evolution, And it's like these are not really dichotomous, and there's nothing related to evolution within our talk about faith

and forgiveness, Like none of that has anything to do with evolution. Like, can I kind of understand a little bit what your understanding of evolution is? Yeah, I'll do my best to explain it, like I do understand, and I do believe in evolution. By the way, I do believe in it because you know, if I believe that God is beyond you know, time, so it's really a process that doesn't matter to God, but it was a process that we were involved in. But I believe that,

you know. So I've heard lots of different um like Richard Dawkins and things like that try to explain how the reason we have love and all these things is so that we can reproduce, and that you know, evolution is a selfish process that involves survival, right, and so the only reason we care for each other is is for the betterment of our survival and our reproduction. And I think our flawed because that's only true. But please go ahead.

Yeah, I think our framing is a little bit problematic because, like, I primarily want to push back on the idea that there's an intention to evolution, or that there's an intention to love and an intention to these other processes, because I think that that adds some bias to the equation of saying that, like there there is some reason for anything. I don't think that there's

any reason to anything, especially when talking about evolution. It's it's a process and there are results, and there are certain things that are selected for. But when we say selected for, that's even a bit weird of language because

that kind of implies that there's some agency or intent. I don't know exactly what the best wording would be to describe it, but like the it ends up being kind of cause and effect might be a better way to word it, where it's not that it's not that love directly was intended to have organisms like reproduce, but the ones that ended up reproducing are the ones that are more likely to have their species survived, so therefore we're going to see more

of that species propagate in the future. So it's not that like this was a desired trait. It just happened to be what led to to the propagation

of the species. So could there be what I'm talking about, a social perspective, like how we interact with each other and certain emotions that come from the kind of transcend evolution, and one of them would be forgiveness, right, And so you know, like a soldier jumping in front of somebody and doesn't even know them and dying, you know, sacrifice and things like that, which don't really account for that particular narrative that you know, but they've

reason we have these processes and things like that. Yeah, that's why I said it only makes sense in aggregate, Like, yes, if I were right now to go and jump in front of a speeding car in order to protect a bunch of orphans, that doesn't do anything to further my bloodline. So when we look at like one specific individual case in that sense, it

causes something of a problem. But if we zoom out and think about it in aggregate, think about it with any sort of like larger millions of years evolutionary type perspective, we recognize that oh, okay, a species that has an element where they're willing to jump in front of a car or push orphans out of the way, is a species that is less likely to be devoured

by leopards and hyenas and everything else. We have to recognize that these things happen in a piecemeal fashion, and in the same way that we have these sort of like crude and now almost sort of quaint and cheesy evolutionary charts where you see, you know, a chimp slowly begin to walk upright, and eventually you get to some picture of a caveman. We can see those same

sorts of things when we talk about a lot of different human emotions. Obviously, when we're talking about emotions and then we're trying to analyze the behavior of animals who we can't actually speak to and get a proper understanding of their consciousness, we want to be really mindful about the way we anthropomorphosize, in the

way that we project these things. But you can see quote unquote forgiveness in baboon troops, in elephant colonies, among orcas, among all kinds of big brained and sophisticated animals, and you can see lower and lesser degrees of that as you go all the way down the evolutionary ladder. It makes sense that

it's any legs really come up with a good explanation for that. But and I would say it would take a lot of faith to believe that you know all this all this is random, since all we've ever observed is order. Really because not random things happen, and then some things happen to happen more often because they end up reproducing themselves. Stephen, does the lack of an explanation make your belief system true? No, I just think it puts us in the same boat. I think we both have to have faith. Why

you understand? So then if we don't understand something, why how does that? But even if you specifically don't understand something, why does that then call for a supernatural being to be present? Like? Why? Why then are we jumping to faith? And instead of just saying I don't know, yeah, I mean I get where you're coming from, I would say from of calling God supernatural, right, I really don't subscribe to that in a sense where I think God is necessary. I think he's not supernatural. He always

was. He's a part of nature. He's also outside of nature, right. It's it's a concept of the creator of everything that we see right and know to be true. It's not whatever we can imagine God can do. Like a lot of people think, well, why didn't God do this and God do that? Well, that's really not reality, right. What we see in reality is that there's a lot of things we don't understand, like the infinite universe that we observe um. You know, the constants of the

universe, which are actually pretty fine tuned. If you actually talk to some scientists, if any one of those constants were changed or deducted in any way, life wouldn't exist. That's not I reject, reject that argument. Stuff in but just talk to some scientists. Ben, Yeah, I have to really see you're sitting here accusing me of not understanding the thing that I am trying very patiently to slowly and gently explain to you. I am not a

biologist, I am not an expert in ethology. I'm not especially qualified to sit here and explain evolution to you. But I understand why a sea turtle that lays a hundred eggs doesn't need to have the same emotional capacity for caring for their young as a chimpanzee who only has one baby maybe every five years. Like it makes sense that we would end up working through these different systems, and we can see piecemeal how we can go from one system to another

system, and why one system might propagate more effectively than another one. To say that we don't understand that is just kind of lazy. You can't just wave your hand and say, well, it's all made up, and so I can make up whatever I want to make up, right, Yeah, totally. I mean, I get what you're coming from. I'm just saying those things we don't understand. I'm not saying that what you just explain to me I don't understand. I'm saying that there's things beyond that we still don't

understand. And so in a hundred years ago we greatly understood any of the evolutionary stuff I'm talking about, and a hundred years before that in that yeah, so then in the meaning we'll have a better understanding of ao biogenesis and the founding of the universe and everything else. In the meantime, why are you insisting that my God isn't the God from the Bible or the God that has this power or that power. My God is just the thing that fills

in all this stuff I don't understand. I mean, what does that even mean if I don't understand it, therefore God, I mean yeah, in a in a sense, right, I mean, it's the only explanations that's never observed, nothing creating something and way of describing something you don't understand. Hey, Stephen, how many universes have you seen created? Okay, Stephen, how many universes have I don't believe. I don't believe it. Believe in a multiverse, I don't know. So hold on, hold on,

I've I've got a specific reason why I'm asking these questions. Um So, how many universes do we do we know of? For sure, we only know of this one one? But right, so, so how many universe? So if if we're doing if we're talking about probability, like I kind of want to go back to the thing that you said, like if one thing was off, then life wouldn't exist. I reject your fine tuning claims.

But there's a big problem with your arguments here in that when we're doing any kind of study, right, like, like, do you understand statistical power? Does that statement mean anything? It does? But you can elaborate if you like. Okay, so let me let me explain a little bit. So Let's say let's say I have a six sided die, right, and I roll it one time and the number comes up to be six, And I say, well, the number six, and that's the only thing

that can that can be rolled. If I roll this die, it's going to be six. Because I've only seen it be a six. You probably look at me and you'd say, wait, hold on, you need to roll it more than one time in order to see what other options you're going to get. A's like no, but but I rolled it this one time and I rolled the six, Like, so here, what happens with the universe? Like, we have one instance of all this happening, right,

we have an equals one. So can we even make any determinations about probability based on that? I'd argue, no, no, we really can't. And um, this isn't a case necessarily where we can just reroll the die because we have no power over just rerolling the universe and seeing what's going to happen. Right, So the most we can do at this point is would require face. Well, we can hypotheses, we can hypothesize, but we

cannot draw any conclusions because we cannot determine statistical significance. The more times you're able to roll that die, the more accurately are able to determine probability. So my argument here is that you cannot determine probability based on the data that we're given. So so these arguments of well, this is the way the universe would be if X, YC change, those are all hypothesis. We don't have a way to test them. We have no way to determine the

actual experimental probability. Like, do you understand that there's a difference between theoretical science and experimental science? No, I totally, yeah, I do, and that fact right, So so we can't. So it's kind of disingenuous to say that because I disagree with this theoretical science, then this is what the experimental outcome would be, because we don't know, and that's as far

as that's as far as we can get. And so like a lot of the arguments you're making just don't really have grounds to be able to make conclusions from. Right, I made the conclusion right because of my faith, But it's like I understright, so don't so I don't think you can make that conclusion. So that's the problem you're starting with a conclusion and instead of fine if you don't believe, right, No, So why are you starting with the conclusion? Stephan? Are you listening to me? Why are you starting

with the conclusion instead of starting with the question? Why are you starting with the conclusion already? I'm a I'm a theist. I have a conclusion. You know I have. But why did you start? Why do you do you start with a conclusion for anything else in your life? Do you just assume things and then operate based on your assumption? Was I originally thought that there wasn't a god? Actually for a very long time. I'm not going to get into my personal life. Well what so, what experience does that

have happened? So what convinced you that? I'm sure? On the radio station if I don't want to hear about my testimony, but I can tell you. You know, I don't necessarily want your testimony, but I want your evidence. Like, what convinced you that this is the correct conclusion? Okay, so I'll give you the shortest possible. Um, I didn't believe in God. I had my grandfather was a street preacher like evangelist. If no one else in my family was Christian. He gave me a Bible,

he said, read it. Okay. I put it in the seat next to me on my vehicle the day before. I said, okay, God, if you're real, just reveal yourself to me, said a little small prayer. I didn't really believe it was going to happen. I was actually on my way back from the strip club with my brother, because that's what he did on his free time. He'd like to take me there. I was driving home and the ignission went off on my car. I pulled off

to the side of the road. Car started smoking, got out immediately, fire all the way through the front. My entire car burned up completely. The metal was bent. That's how hot it was. Okay, everything in my car burned, including the seat that my Bible was sitting on and my golf clubs. That's how hot it was. I went back to the vehicle, and after the sheriff pulled up, I grabbed my Bible and it was the only thing that survived. It was sitting on a metal heat. I

went up to the sheriff and I told him what I could. This was the only thing I could selfish, and then I asked him his name, and he said Officer Gentile. So after that point I had I had a couple of things, you know, I started to think, well, this is probably a huge coincident, But there was a lot of things that happened after that that convinced me that it wasn't. So that's why I decided to turn my life over. And so me and my grandfather started having some Bible

studies and that's what changed me ultimately. So yeah, that's the end of my story. Though I might have already gotten locked, I'm not no, no note at all. I mean, really, what I'm hearing you say is not at all dissiwhere from what Ben was pointing out about, you know, the law of large numbers and just basic statistics. I'm glad that you were safe in that situation, but it kind of feels like you said a prayer to God one time you rolled the die and you ended up landing on

a natural twenty. But that doesn't mean that every time you roll it you're going to end up with that same result. And I would even challenge you to think back. Were there times where you kind of thought, well, maybe there is a God. Did you ever say any sort of prayer ever about Hey, God, if you're real, come and show me or whatever else? And were those answered? I mean, when you start looking at the selection bias and everything else, it does feel really thin. And I

appreciate the value and the significance of a personal story like that. I'm certainly not trying to take that away from you, but it doesn't seem like a

very reasonable or rational way to gather truth. Yeah, I mean, you're right, like I said, if it was a genermous coincidence that the officer's name was Officer Gentile and that, you know, my Bible on a metal seat, and usually I understand the process of physics, and like you know, things books burn, right, especially if it's on a metal seat that's been burned. That just got me. I'm sorry. I was just like, God is God is real? Like if I don't look at this as

God telling me something? And then and then I started doing my own studies and that was it. But yeah, I mean, we don't have really any anything else. Yeah, go ahead, Yeah, which which god did you pray to? Well? I pray the God of the Bible. Which God of the Bible because my grandfather's while okay, so specifically the Christian God.

Um, so I've heard similar stories from Muslims. And why should I believe your story that God would specifically God was say saving you and specifically the Christian God was saving you, versus a Muslim friend that says that Allah had saved them from uh something similar. Yeah, Well, technically, um, Muslims, and I'm not discrediting them, they do believe in the God of

the Bible. At least they subscribe to the God of the of the Bible and the Old Book, if you understand that to a Muslim, Yeah, but they they they would probably disagree with you, Christie is saying in the Bible, Well, they would not believe, They would not agree that that Christ is God. So there's at least some distinct differences between your God, your God, and theirs. And many Muslims would disagree that you that you're following the same God. In in the fact that the gods, even looking

at the Old Testament, are interpreted to be very different. The character of each God is very distinctly different. But even even let's let's say if I had if I had a Hindu friend that said that they were saved by one of their gods, why should I believe you and not them. Well, I mean I can't obviously can't answer that. Um, I don't know. I respect Hindu culture. I don't think that God came to die to take away people's culture. One. You know, I don't believe that he ever

said anything about our culture. We still put up Christmas trees and that's pagan, right, It's just it's just our culture. It's what we do. But if somebody said that what God's concerned about. But if somebody gave a very similar story to you and said that they were convinced they weren't a Hindu and then they became a Hindu because they believed they were saved from some accident because of this deity, would you say that their belief was correct and that's

a good reason to then become a Hindu. I mean, if if you propose, if someone proposed that to me, I wouldn't personally because it wasn't my own testimony. I don't know how i'd I'd probably fifty fifty as far as like what I believed, right, But they can't. Your story and their story can't both be true, right? Sure? No, do I believe that forces out there and angelic beings that are called themselves God, like

Zeus and Thor. The Bible talks about like idle spirits. Yeah, so you think that some people's beliefs are false, some people's faiths are false. I would say that the entity they believe in maybe real, right, but then they create a story based on their own spirit like Thor, which would be like wrath. Right, So how do we know things like that? So slep, And how do we know that yours isn't one of those false

ones? Well? That see that. Now we're getting into the source, right, Like we're getting right to the beginning of how why No, so we're getting into we're getting into evidence. I need some evidence. Yeah, because like again, people can say whatever they want. They can say that they believe in a certain things, like and they can say that their story is a certain way. And I'm not I'm not discounting your experience, but

I question whether your interpretation of your experience is correct. Right. That's that's Old Testament, and I know you've probably read it, right if you look at all the stories in the Old Testament, I mean literally from Abraham sacrificing his promise son or at least going to sacrifice promise son. A picture of the father sacrificing his son. You have the passover, the blood of the Lamb's put over. You have Psalms twenty two, which talks about you know,

I'm poured out like water. They pierced my hands on my feet. This was written like six hundred years before the act of crucifixion was even a thing. People have been murdering each other forever. This is not exclusive to like the Old Testament or the New Testamenting my hands on my feet, that's pretty detailed, right, It's detailed. So people have known people. People have known how to kill each other for a long time, and often piercing

with sharp objects. That yeah, and part of it. Multiple cultures have found like the easiest ways to kill people and the most torturous ways to kill people. I'm not convinced that like this is a good reason to say that your specific religion is the correct one because they knew how to murder people in a certain way, or like they talked about murdering people in a certain way. That's not convincing to me. That really stuffing it all comes down to

post hoc rationalization. Every single argument that you have made so far, whether we're talking about the fine tuning of the universe, the power of forgiveness, the beauty of trees, the safety of the Bible. I mean, everything that you've described has been well, I saw a thing, So let me go back and try to explain that thing using this Jesus model. And I would just encourage you to think a little bit bigger, to realize that like

one instance of an occurrence, one event somehow creates a narrative. You're just filling everything that you don't understand or don't like one with the word God. And yeah, that's valid. I'll let you have the last word. I haven't heard anything new or interesting other than I had an experience, and I think God is the only way that it makes sense. And I would say to you that no one else is going to be compelled by that. Okay,

I would disagree on that. And on a particular level, I will say this that there's one thing that is true in the Bible, one thing, and that is that love is sacrifice. And I don't know if you have a family or not. Okay, that's not exclusive to the Bible, though right noticive to the whole point is it's not exclusive. No, I would agree with that, but it is the fundamental principle of Christianity if you if you really dig into the gospel and what that is, right, I

mean, depend on how you interpreted and everything else. We talked to different people every week who have really different ideas of what actually is or says or does. Yeah, I mean, I'm just saying based on personal experience. If you live long enough, you realize that love isn't just butterflies and rainbows, right, It's sacrifice ultimately, And so the display on the cross was just that it was sacrifice, and God displayed the highest point of love to

us because He's sacrificed for us. And I think that's that's good. Good. Yeah, I mean Jesus spent a bad weekend and then went up to heaven and to live with the fathers. I don't know how much. I mean, Yeah, cursificions like not a pleasant process by any means, But there are plenty of like humans who've been crucified and have stayed dead after that.

Um, So I don't know if Jesus really gave more than anybody else, Like, it seems like he got a pretty hefty reward for all of that, But there are plenty of normal people that are like still going to be executed and die and stay dead and in a lot of Christians worldview, going to hell afterwards. It seems like a lot of people are getting a worse deal than Jesus. So I don't know how much he actually sacrificed. Right, Certainly, he's not the only person who have ever loved or the

only person who've ever sacrificed. I don't see any supernatural here. And Steph and I don't mean to talk over you or to keep bumping into each other, but just to say I haven't heard anything new, I haven't heard anything compelling, and I certainly wish you the best, but I would also very much ask you to lift your eyes up to the horizon a little bit, see the world a little bit more broadly, and stop looking at that single role of the diet. And that I think I'll go ahead, Stephan,

and I'm not yeah, I mean, I'll take your advice. I respect your guys's opinion. I have no animosity. I think that you guys post some good points, and so yeah, I mean we'll leave it at that. I appreciate the time though. Yeah, and Stephan, I'd love for you to call back in sometime. I think you are very kind caller, and none of us yelled at each other, and I think that was.

While we still disagree on a lot of things, I do think this was a worthwhile discussion to have and I would like to have more discussions with you in the future. So I hope you'd be willing to call in again sometimes. Yeah, sounds good, we'll do. Yeah, have a good rest here. All right. Well, I'm getting hyped up after that first call. I know we have some other colors coming, but I'm very, very excited to tell you all about the upcoming annual Bat Cruise on Saturday, August

twenty six, twenty twenty three, and we'd like to tell you. Unfortunately, also, I guess it's kind of kind of cool. We got a lot of people showing up, but tickets have sold out, so you can't Unfortunately, you can't buy tickets at this time, but there's still a chance that you can join us. We have a wait list and you can sign up for that. In case there are any people that cancel, you could take that spot and get on the Bat Cruise. So to join the wait

list. You can go to tiny dot cc slash bat Cruise and if you already have tickets, you will get to join the ACA or a fun summer evening on the water conversing with line like minded freethinkers like Forest Valki, j Mike, Christy Powell who's sitting right next to me. Hey, I made the Marquis and other hosts and crew from our various shows. So if you want to get in on that action, but you don't have tickets yet,

you will need to get on the waitlist. I'm sorry you weren't able to get your tickets in time, but we do this every year, so if you're not able to go this year, I highly recommend getting on those tickets as soon as they open for next year because it really really is a great time. I'd also like to talk about some other ways that you can support

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clicking the join button below the video. You'll get custom chat emotes and you'll help perpetuate the mission of Talk Heathen and the eighth this community of Austin. You can also send a super chat, and we've got a couple that I'm going to read out in just a second, So you can ask a question or give a comment in a super chat and we will get to as many as we can on the air live during the show. So if you want to ask a question but don't feel like you want to call in, you

can send a super chat and get those in. So we've got a couple right now from Greg Markowski sends five dollars. Thank you, Greg. Again, I think the most frequent super chatter every week still goes to Greg Markowski.

I will I will be making a plaque for you out of a paper plate or something in the future that we can put up the Actually I actually think I might do that, send it to the studio and if you ever happen to be at the library and can come pick it up, that'll be for you or whoever takes your place as the most frequent super chatter on the channel, but Greg says, thanks guy to you make my Sunday chores go easier. And I'm glad that we could be here for you. Greg,

always happy to see you in the side chat. And we have another one from Ben nine and you have a great name because Ben is a fantastic sense of course nine ninety nine and says porn is a naughty is naughty and sinful thought crime. And we got the see no evil here, no evil, speak no evil or a dance with the devil target goal, a happy ending without a god as a perverse voyor yes there I initially you're working through the emojis. It's uh, yes, we definitely have some some porn talk coming

up. I'm very excited too. All right, let's do it. It's a it's been a couple of months since I've done secular sexuality, so I am all ready to talk to the internet about pornography. Who do you want to start with? Yes, uh, we're gonna start with Laurie. She her from Ohio because I think she called in first. She's been waiting a little bit longer, and she wants to talk about pornography being a sin. Laurie what are your thoughts, Laurie, you are alive. I power you

hello. Obviously tell you that um, the skin is phnography. Because while lust and adultery aren't to say they are both sinful, God wants our hearts, not just our obedient. We can say that phnography is a sin because it violates the character of God as someone. Let's talk about that a little bit. I want to clarify a little bit when you say that something is a sin. When we describe something as a sin and label yes sin not a sin, we're not talking about what is good for us. We're not

talking about what is healthy or harmful. When we say that something is a sin, we're talking specifically about the fact that God has declared that this is a bad thing to do. Right, Yes, it is from sin? Yeah, Well, I mean I can't. I can't argue with you there. I am not going to disagree with the notion that God hates porn, except for insomuch as does God exist and or have the capacity for hating things? We kind of have to go to the very beginning and figure out the

whole Is there a God? How do you know? And why? But if we are just off reading from the premise that the God of the Bible is real. Then yeah, sure God hates porn, But like, why should Ben and I care because we don't believe that God is let alone hates You know, I was once a sinner. I was lost. I did not believe in God. And Harold told I went to church and then I

turned my whole life over to the Lord. When I fully surrendered to him and accepted him as my favor, when I confessed him of Lord and confessed my sins to him, and he cleans me, and he he opened my eyes. My guy just spiritually opened Yes, okay, so you believe that there is a God and that God hates sin, why should us the rest of us care? Because because the God is true? How do you know that of all that exists, like animals, everything that's alive, like dreams,

though the error us? You know, if God did not exist, we would not be her. How do you know that He created us? He created us to serve, to serve him, that was the perfect You're just making claims. How do you how do you know that because the Bible, the Bible speaks about it, and the Bible is true, how do we know the Bible is true because it's the evidence of things that much scenes. But the evidence, um, it's all true, it's all true.

How do you know that it's by face? Okay? So it's do you know and knowing and knowing that God is true even though of the things, of the evidence of the things I don't see, but I still believe. Lordie, do you know what a circular argument? I don't know. Right, So the way you're the argument that you've made is that God is true and we know that God is true because the Bible says that God is true. And then how do we know that the Bible is true? Because I

know the Bible is true. So it's you're not making any evidence. Why not providing any evidence that any of those are true? You're using like it's it's kind of like a game of rock paper scissors, where like rock beats scissors, paper beats rock and says its beats paper. It's a whole circle, but nothing really tells us why any of those is actually true, right, You're just relying on the other thing instead of providing a reason to believe

why those are true. Like there are plenty of like I mean specifically taking the Bible for an example. There are plenty of other people that would make the same argument about their book and we just kind of went over this with the last scholar about um, Like, Muslims believe their book is true, and they probably say say the same thing, that their book is true because because they believe it to be true and because their God is real. So

why should I believe your book? And that's what says you're believing Mum, that's other false gods. That's how do you know that those The problem is, though you're just asserting that that's what your your book says. I don't

have any reason to believe that your book is correct. Right, there's also books out there well, but we read because it would take us away from the truth living word of God. So if I have a book that tells me that hobbits are real, is that book term because it says that hobbits are real? Yeah? Why why is my book not true? All Bibles they're all serving Satan, no matter what if it's other gods. The Lord of the Rings is serving Satan. Oft is Lord of the Rings serving Satan.

I wasn't aware of that. Yes, it's true, they are of Satan. Any other goods that are that are mine, Laurie. Okay, Laurie, maybe we agree with you, maybe we don't, but can you please just explain to me how is it that you know that the Bible is true but the Vedas is not, that the Koran is not, that the Lord of the Rings is not what makes you feel or how you know that the Bible is the only one that's correct. Jesus Christ is the son of God and anyone, and Jesus says, anyone who denies me, I would

deny you before I have any father right the Koran. These books also make similar claims that the God of the Bible isn't real, but the Bible says that the Bible is. Who else says that the Bible is real other than the Bible? Because I know God is real. That's why. How do you know this word is true? Yeah? Because because the Bible told her first comes from hearing, Laura, we're back into our circular argument territory.

I really appreciate where you're coming from, but we're seven minutes deep, and so far, I'm still hearing the Bible says so, And I know because the Bible says so, and it's true because the Bible says that it's true. And the Bible is true because the Bible says. So I would ask you to maybe think that through a little bit, maybe give us a try on another week. Yeah, yep, i'd agree. But can I tell you one both about one more thing. We'll let you have the last word.

Eighteen. Can you repeat that it would be better for thee to be answer into life hot or pain, rather than having two hands or two feet be cast into help into fire. And so that says I blocked it out and cast it from thee. It would be better for thee to enter into life with one eye rather than have in two eyes and to cloud be cast into hell fire. And that. Now, God does not mean for you to go put your foot if you like, or your hand if you hit

somebody. He doesn't mean that to cut it off. It means for you to turn away from the sin. And yeah, we're still means for you to stop watching the porn. That's why we, Laurie, we're still we're still leave to God's mad about what I do in my private time. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off either, Ben, I just appreciate you. I think we need to move on. I think we need to

move on and maybe try some fresh ideas. Yeah, we're gonna move on to some other colors, Laurie. I would strongly encourage you think about your reasoning of how you got to your position, and and maybe as well, like you had started to talk about not being a believer before and now you're a believer. Maybe next time if you call in, you can tell us what made you make that decision to switch, and that might be a more

interesting call for the future. But in the meantime, I want to tell you all about something really cool, and that is we got a Patreon. I know a lot of you know about the Patreon, but every week we read off the top five patrons a week, which we will read off later

on in the show today. But if you want your name to be on that list, you can go to tiny dot cc slash patreon THH And we also have a channel that houses all of the shows in ACA audio podcast form, So if you want to listen to the show without seeing our faces, you can go to tiny dot cc slash aeon podcasts. You can also become part of the talk he Then community and our fan run Facebook page at tiny dot cc slash FBTHG And in case you didn't know, Talki then has a

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please go over there and watch that. It'll be a great And we have some more calls about porn, so I think we're I think we're just going to take a bunch of porn calls today. Like it's not very often that we get Christie and me together on a show, so I'm going to have a good time today and talk all about porn. So let's bring on. Is it pronounced? I'm sorry if I mispronounced anybody's names, feel free to correct me. Drey, he him from Texas, wants to talk about porn.

Is wrong? Drey, you are live on Talk Heathen. What is your argument I'm doing today? First personally, Hey, did I pronounce her name correctly? Yeah? He's right, Okay, I wanted to make sure. Yeah, Jerry, what do you want to talk about? Um? Yeah, I want to. Um, so not I saw the topic of discussion and me coming from a theist perspective, automatically, I'm automatically assuming that one is wrong, so I won't try to arguing from a PSP point of

view, arguing from a secular point of view. Yeah, So when we say porn is wrong, like we talked to the last color about how porn is quote sinful because God says it's bad and I can't argue with that. But when you say it's wrong, what does that really mean? Does that mean that porn is harmful to people? Does that mean that porn is damaging in some way? Like? What does wrong meaning in that sect? Absolutely? Absolutely what I elaborate for anyway, Absolutely absolutely damaging to people. Okay,

how do you know? Because Um, just from a historical standpoint, Um, no society has ever, ever, has ever been able to build the pawn a foundation of hedonism. So the act of putting pleasure first has always destroyed society's in history, not all of history. So the only and

I only say that. I only say this because the reason I want to tie in how this is how porn is imogen because porn relies on the objectification and the commodification of sexuality or sexuality is something that's personal and it's intimate. Let me let me jump in right there, because I feel like that premise alone is enough to keep us talking all day. Why is porn only or rather sex? Why is sex only supposed to be about intimacy? Where is

that written? Who declared that? And whose best interest did they have in mind? Obviously you can have sex that is commodified. Obviously you can have sex that isn't intimate, and plenty of people do so. When you say you can't, what is it that you actually mean here? I'm not saying that you can't. I'm just it shouldn't maybe the greater good. It doesn't serve the greater good of humanity, That's what I'm trying to argue. Okay, I mean, how does me going and playing golf for for eight hours?

How does that further humanity in any sort of useful or meaningful way? How is you playing golf any better for society than me masturbating to pornography for eight hours, because um, the sorry, the implications of golf being perverted are low. The implications of six being perverted are high. I mean, and are talking about a sport that has a lot of classism. We're talking about a sport that has a huge environmental impact. I mean, golf can

be really really problematic to society. Wait wait, wait, wait, the implications of six being perverted is for one, and this is a huge this is a huge problem that we have. And we have a problem with child we have a problem with sex trafficky, and we have a problem with rape. We have six. The perversion of six is not It's totally different from proversion of something like golf. Golf isn't a perversion of nature if if we

want to, you know, take that point. Like, I'm still trying to figure out how pornography leads to any of the social ills that you're talking about. You know, it reminds me at the start of the call when you were talking about how a society built on hedonism is going to be destroyed, And I have to ask, like, what society on a long enough

timeline hasn't been destroyed. You know, there have been plenty of societies throughout time and history and culture that have had quote unquote hedonism, that have had beautiful gardens, that have had vineyards for growing wine and all of these kinds of things, and eventually all of those societies get destroyed. Is that because

they were too hedonistic? I mean, what do these things mean? Yes, But personally I want to say hedonism is a part of why to get destroyed, because I think when people become too obsessed with pleasure, they put down, they put their purpose on the back hands, and infrastructure starts to crumble. Yes, So if we all spent like forty hours a week playing golf and none of us participated in life or were raising our children, or

educating ourselves or performing labor, then our society would crumble. Similarly, if we all decided to spend forty hours a week watching pornography, our society would kind of crumble. But I'm strugg going to figure out any differences here between pornography and golf. If you want to be totally honest with yourself, golf is not nearly as fun as six It's not nearly as pleasurable. So that is a very that's the equivalency that you're trying to make. It doesn't we

should only do boring stuff that sounds like happiness. But like, let's take any any hobby and like going along the lines that Christie was saying, like, so I'm a doctor, right, so I do a lot of very important work for society throughout the week, and it gets very excessive sometimes, Like there's a role in everybody's life for pleasure and for a little bit of

hedonism. And we're not saying that. I don't think any of us here is going to say that your entire life should be based on just doing what's fun and abandoning what needs to be done to further humanity. None of us are making that assertion. But we're saying that sometimes it's a good idea for people to have outlets for social functions, outlets for sports, outlets for sexual

pleasure. These are all necessary things for humanity. And I think Christy especially would advocate that like having your sexual needs met leads to humans in general being more productive in their society. So I don't think that, like, if we want to talk about like humans and their their value to their society.

I mean, that's a certain discussion, but that has nothing to do with whether or not the act of watching porn itself is problematic because what if somebody watches maybe for an hour a day, and then it's very productive in their life, Like, you can't have people only doing their job or people burnout. Right, let's see, this is the this is them, So the barriers that the comes from not being for porn won't be obsessed it. It's

kind of stems from its prohibition. So the okay, so from a PST point of view, sin it's something that you shouldn't do, right, but it's something that people do any ways, and it's something that people should feel bad for because if they don't feel bad for, they will do it without consequence. I know what's gonna happen regardless, So people aren't desiring to have their sexual needs meant, it is something that's going to happen regardless. But

we have we have the societal barriers. For instance, we got societal barriers because okay, that's the instance if we did not have societal Sorry, I'm sorry that was a Yeah. Let me let me jump in a little bit

dre because I feel like you might be struggling here. It really sounds like you had that experience that we all have at some point where instead of our mom or dad telling us like, Okay, you can have a cookie, but only one, we all had an experience at a certain age where mom wasn't looking and we ate as many cookies as we possibly can and then got sick from it and started to realize, oh, there was a good reason

my mom said that there was a restriction on the number of cookies. What I'm hearing from you, dre what everything I have heard from you over the course of the last ten minutes can feels like it can be boiled down to I'm worried that this cookie tastes so good that I can't trust myself and I shouldn't like it, And there's all of these ideas of what I should be doing and what I shouldn't be doing, and what I'm gonna do anyway even though I shouldn't do it, and it all is just sort of this notion

of being somehow unable to control yourself around the things that you enjoy. And because you don't think that golf is that particularly fun, you're not really worried about it, and you don't really see golf as sinful, but porne, who mama? Is that something that's a lot of fun and therefore we have to be extra extra careful about it. And then we bring in all of

this like moralizing from God and everything else. Is there anything that I've said just now that you disagree with or that doesn't actually encapsulate your argument up to this point? No, it doesn't. I want to say. I just want to say, like one more thing that I've got to go back to work. But what I want to say is that if you look up actual actuals to statistics, you will know that a lot of people, a lot of a lot of um, sexual predators and people that are that have been

guilty of sexual crimes they follow. Um, it's a certain pipeline that well, but there's something lots of people committing lots of crimes, the biggest crimes in our country because a lot of people that are are committing a lot of these crimes are in religious institutions and especially in positions of power in religious institution.

Um. And just some something thrown out there. Yeah, if we're trying to profile people based on their hobbies, I am much more interested in the criminality of the top one percent of golfers in this country than the criminality of the top one percent of porn consumption in this country. Absolutely take that to the bank. I appreciate what you're saying, but when you say statistics,

you are so far off course. You have no citation on that, And while I don't want to be pedantic or pick it any specific little thing, I have to just flat out reject this whole porn to predator pipeline philosophy that you're promoting here. It's a shout out to our sound team for those closest Sorry, real statistics. Call us back. When you have real statistics, email us. I would love to see a number TV at Atheist hyphen

Community dot org. I will be sitting here with bated breath, desperate to see that research study because I have spent so much of my career trying to find those numbers that everybody says are out there that I swear to you do not exist. I will read them on air. I put you have my word right now, Dre. If you email anything even remotely resembling the statistics that you claim you have, I will read them on air. You have my word. Other than that, thank you for calling. Please keep thinking

on it. Yeah, thank you for calling in. We love to hear back from you, and I hope you have a good rest of your Sunday. Oh Ben, I didn't mean to get too turned up towards the end of it, but it's started to resemble sort of the worst of the backwater

for Channy. I guess twitter x now conversation that our culture seems to be having that you and I were even touching on before the show, about how there's this idea that anybody whose sex life doesn't look like you know, the Cleavers, is somehow grooming children is somehow going to be like violent or predatory towards kids or towards other marginalized people. And I just get so angry at this notion that something that our society is uncomfortable with is inherently evil and the

source of every bad thing that's ever happened. And it just makes me laugh too. Every time we get a caller that wants to try to explain to us the statistics about something like this, and they have no idea that they're talking to an expert in the field that has been studying sex and how humans like respond to sexual stimuli and all that. Like, it's hilarious that want to present that and not not give any statistics. It's just funny to me.

Yeah, No, I love I mean, it's so nice when you have it in such a tight bow, because that conversation is reflective of almost every conversation I have about pornography in my work as a therapist, because so often people will come in and they'll say, well, I really want to argue this from a secular standpoint. I'm not being roped in by my old religious beliefs. But then when you start to scratch the surface or push back on any of this quote unquote accepted knowledge, you realize that, no,

it just devolves into religious moralizing again. Yeah and again like Christy already mentioned. But just for anybody else out there, if you've got debates on this particular point, or if you have studies that would suggest that that porn is bad and that this pipeline exists, then you can send an email to TV at Atheist hype in community dot org and let us know what you think about that. And also if you just want to send us feedback in general,

you can send to that same email. You can tell us what you like and what you don't like about the shows. You can tell your your least favorite host to fuck off if you really want to, because somebody, somebody will send us that email, probably m Or if you just want to say hi, that's also a way to do that. And if you want to know more about what's going on in the atheist community, you can go to www dot Atheist hyphen Community dot org where you can learn more about the aca

it's policies and how you can get involved. And I know earlier we talked a little bit about the top five patrons of the week. I feel like it's a good time in the show to read those names off. I know it's a you're gonna have to squirrel up a little bit. Christy, would you like to read off the top five for this Yeah, of course, as always in our number one spot is our friend Dingleberry Jackson, followed closely by Aame Oops All Singularity Devour Valgene and number five spot is held by Collevi

Helvetti. Honorable mention this week is are In the number six spot is our Lord Trilobite Amazing and next you want if you want your name on that list. We already talked about it. But you can go to the Patreon and compete for one of those hop spots and maybe your name will be read out next week. M all right, well we have we have some more calls on the line. I think, you know what, this is just turning into a porn episode and I really don't mind that. Yeah, here for

it. Um, let's do it. Let's let's talk to Slave of Christ. He him from Texas. All right, Slave of Christ, you are on the air. What would you like to talk about? Hi? Christie Powell, Hi Ben. We've spoke before, if you remember from my voice I do. Yeah, just because we've been kind of circling this issue a little bit already today when we talk about pornography being bad, can you just start by kind of telling us what is? What does bad mean? Bad

for society, bad for health, bad for offending God? Like what makes it bad? Uh? Well, there's uh okay, uh. This was like my basic argument. I urge you, as foreign nurse and exhaust abstain from sinful desires which which wage war against your fall. That's First Peter two eleven of First Corinthians. Also in the First before you jump into another verse. Can you boil down what you're saying to porn is wrong because God says it's wrong. No, that's not my argument. My argument is when you

consume those materials, you're more likely to fall into fornication. And I have a I actually could sun Yeah, define fornication pornication. Uh, define fornication for me and tell me why I would not want to fall into it. Okay, fornication means uh, there is an order of God, which means God all only wants us to enjoy pleasure within a marriage circle. Right. So so I'm pushing back here. I'm interrupting you because I asked you, like less than a minute ago. Does this boil down to porn is wrong

because God says it's wrong? And it sounds like you're about to tell me that porn is wrong because God's that right. No, I was about to hide you. Research that in the Christian community having relations outside of marriage is rising, and there is a link or a connection with pornography conception. So

save a christ hold on the problem. The problem here is that you're asserting that watching porn is going to make you more likely to fornicate, and that the study then that you're hold on, hold on, and that the data is now saying that there are more Christians that are having sex outside of marriage, but you still haven't communicated why that's a problem. I don't see why

sex outside of marriage, when it's consensual between adults is a problem. Okay, So there's like, after we die, we will all face the judgment seat of Christ. Right. I don't believe any believe christ. I don't believe God says it's wrong. I don't believe any of that is true. Why it's other than can can you give a non religious reason why having sex outside of marriage is wrong? Okay? Well, the issue is not you

having relations to outside of marriage. There the issue is it will you will end up harming your own self, your physical how How how does having sex outside of marriage harm myself because it will affect your your day to day life, the way you're interact with other how How give me specifics? Okay, okay, okay, you have to respect other pole right should not. But

it is it is what people say, But christ I'm saying that. So let's have two people and they want to have sex, and they both are in the right state of mind, they are not impaired in any way, and they both say they're both over the age of consent, so they are both adults, and they both say, Hey, I want to have sex, Let's go have sex, and then they do. How is that?

How is that impacting their their reactions to other people negatively? That seems like they had an adult discussion and they both agreed to do this activity and they were both consenting to it, and they're both respecting each other in the way that they went about this. I don't see how that's a negative interaction. Yeah, my colling is not about like in general, it's not about pornography. It's about pornication and objection. We're asking you to tell us why.

So you're dodging the question because we asked you why porn was wrong, and you went to fornication, and then we asked you hold on, and then we asked you why fornication was wrong, and then you said it's bad because it will impact your day to day life and will negatively impact how you interact with other people. So you made that claim. Now I need you to give specifics about what negative things are happening in those interactions, and how is

that caused by fornication. You have to demonstrate that. Okay. So so okay, let me ask you this question. Are you white? Yeah, I'm asking people they're white. I don't see what this has to do with anything. Okay, Okay, I'm darker scan That's why I'm asking of this. That has nothing to do with anything. Though. What does that have to do with having sex with people outside of marriage? Okay? Okay.

What I'm saying is, uh, there's this issue of uh, you know, like a certain racist are going outside of the race to get married and you know, being more attractive to the other race, and they do you believe resolved? Hold on? Do you believe that that's a problem. I don't see a problem with it. No, I'm not saying that's a problem. What I'm saying is objectifying others and disrespecting others. Basically, when it

comes to disrespect, that's the objectifying. That's not necessarily what's happening. I gave you. Hold on, we're not talking like I would agree that that objectifying people is a is a problem. If you're if you're engaging in sects with somebody that does not want to do that, that is sexual assault and that is bad. That is a crime, that is absolutely immoral. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about two consenting adults that want

to have relation and that they do. These are totally difference in it. Oh okay, why do why people objectify us? Why this is not this is not related to you called in to say porn was wrong and we are seven minutes deep into this come conversation, and I we've covered the gambit, but we haven't actually talked about anything. So Slave of Christ, I'm a little bit worn on. Patients were towards the end of the show. I'm

just gonna say it very plainly. Will you please give me a thirty second elevator pitch on the concept of why pornography is bad and if you can do that, we can continue this conversation. If you refuse to, I'm done. Okay now. The first is it is the cause, the main cause of people for people to get a sexual sex, said addict. The second will be it is more likely that they will commit unprotected sex. The third will be the damage of the family. When people are consuming such materials,

you're more likely to be on lawyers to their mates or partners. The fourth will be like the religious one, where people will be trade their religious ideas like Christianity or such desires. Okay, so I'm just gonna go down the road here really quickly. Pornography causes sex addiction. Not true. There's no such thing as sex addiction. It's a complicated issue. We tried really hard to cover it well on Secular Sexuality and other places, but I'm just gonna

say it plainly here. Sex addiction is not a real thing. So I'm throwing that out. You said it leads to more risky sex, that watching pornography leads to, like failing to use contraception and stuff like that. Hard disagree. I have seen over and over and over, and the statistics seem to bear out that people who are engaged with their sexuality, people who are not shameful about their sexuality, people who are not uncomfortable with pornography and things

like that, are going to be much more informed about sexuality. It only makes sense if you are comfortable talking about sex, then you're not going to feel weird or squigged out going to a doctor and having an STI check. For one thing, you said that porn leads to eating, which God no,

I mean, how would you know that? There's certainly no statistic to support that, and there's plenty of reason to believe that in many cases, people are able to enjoy pornography as a way of avoiding cheating, as a way of having a healthy form of sexual expression within the confines of an otherwise

monogamous relationship. And then finally, you said that porn leads to betraying God, which is what I knew you were going to say when we first started this call, because it's what everybody has been saying so far on this topic. And I don't care about betraying God. There is no God, and so I'm very happy to disappoint him in this way. If you don't have anything else, Emmanuel, I feel like I have covered everything that you've had to say, and in the last ten minutes, I don't feel like we've

gotten very far. Do you have any question or something like that. I think I'm good. Yeah, I think I think we're ready to move on. We're almost done with the show, So thanks for calling in, and we're going to move on. And I did want to mention because I know

I didn't say this earlier. I know I said that the tickets for the Bat Crews were sold out, but it's still okay because even if you can't make it too specifically the Bat CRUs, if you're in Austin or the surrounding area and can be at the Library on August twenty seven, twenty twenty three, you can still join us for the live shows of Talkie Then an XP. Talkie Then will be hosted by Forrest Valkai, J Mike, and Jamie Forbes. The Atheist Experience will be hosted by Johnny p Angel, Forest Valki,

and J Mike. Doors open at noon, and we hope to see you there. So even if even if you can't make it to the bat Cruise or you didn't get your tickets in time, you can still make it to the Library, which is super super fun. I highly highly recommend you get out there for a show at least once. It's a great time and I'm excited to see each show hosted by three different people. That should be an experience. Yeah, no, it it'll definitely be a lot, a

lot of strong voices. So that's a good time I'm looking forward to. All Right, I think we um we're gonna move on from the porn talk to talk about a little bit different content. So I know if anyone's in the audience says like I didn't come here to watch a show on porn, well we're gonna take a call now. That is such an atheist stereotype, by the way, like peace loving, dope smoking, porn watching atheistsans.

I get it. Yeah, yeah, But anyway, we're gonna talk to Billy from Texas wanting to talk about humans are able to make simulated universes and I'm really I'm really curious about this, Billy, what kind of give us your your elevator pitch. I like how Christy said it before your thirty second elevator pitch about what you want to talk about today? I saw the first caller, and what's the first call you said that, Um, we you know the argument that we only have one universe and and uh so we don't

know if they're us. The chacteristics are a cosmological constants. We're different than we could possibly have a different universe or something something like this. So there's no reason to think that fine tuning is a good argument or whatever. But the thing is that, um, we do have multiple I mean, we only have one universe that we can experience, obviously, but we do have multiple universes. We do have many, many wols of the dice that we

do all the time. Even Einstein used to create simulated universes almost one hundred years ago. That's how they determined that fine tuning, that the universe is fine tuned, and that if those uh characteristics were different, that the universe, in most cases of the universe itself would not exist, not just life wouldn't exist. So Billy, so Billy, Yeah, that's that's my that's

my argument. Those are like, yeah, so we have some some simulations, right, but those are theoretical, right, we don't have those universes in reality that we know at correct well, I mean, obviously we don't know of multiple life physical use. When you run into the post talk problem as well, like yeah, the fact that we're looking at it from that

this this side of the event, but please ben ahead. Yeah, I mean the whole thing is that, like, we can theorize a lot of things, but there's a big difference between theory and actual experimentation and actual evidence, right, Like I can I can think something in my brain and I can do a logic, but just because I did a logic doesn't mean that that logic is going to play out that same way in reality, because again,

there's a lot of variables that we might not know about yet. And so if I say, yeah, I'm accounting for all the variables that I know about, and maybe I give some leeway for some unexpected but either way, we're not going to be able to test those in reality to verify whether or not it's true. And that's why theory kind of, like at least this kind of theory just kind of stays in theory until we can find a way to really demonstrate that. So that's why when I say, like,

we cannot statistically like actually prove this. We don't have a weight, we have an end equals one, and even if we have a theoretical alternative, it's it's theoretical, and we see this even I use medicine frequently as examples

because that's my field. So like we've had different hypotheses over and over throughout like the history of medicine, and I can guess, like, oh, I think that this particular medication is going to be good for this person because I understand this physiological process to a certain extent, and this is what I can guess it's going to do. There have been so many times where we've tried things like that and we've gotten a different outcome than what we expected because

we just didn't know. And so if I made decisions in medicine based only on theory and not based on experimental evidence, I could potentially hurt somebody, right, And so like, there's a danger too into relying on theory and making decisions based on theory alone, because we have all of those variables. And that's like, so I think it's I like to throw on the phrase like it's mental masturbation to an extent, because it's like it's fun, it's

great, Like I enjoy having those discussions. But then there becomes kind of a problem when we take this and say I'm going to make decisions for myself and other people based on just this theory, right, and depending on depending on what the theory is too, like there might be differences in the degrees of consequence. Um. But that's kind of my pushback, is that this is all theoretical, So I don't think it's a good I don't think it's

a good. Reason too then say that the fine tuning argument is a good argument. Well, I think that's the reason. That's the reason why we use simulations to to do these to evaluate this because obviously we can't experiment, we cannot create universes um and in physical reality, so we have to do it using supercomputers um like a like a lustous TG three hundred whenever we create whenever, we created that simulation, and we used because we have a lot

of new information about the variables. We know a lot lot of information. We know a lot, but do we know are there variables? Really are there? We are there variables that we wouldn't know about. No, no, billy, because I'm not going to let you keep smugling in points. We're going to address the points as they come because otherwise we start assuming that what you said was correct and you're able to just go off of those assumptions.

And I don't want to go off of those assumptions. So um, even with the supercomputer or anything else, there is still data that cannot be accounted for with that right because there are things that we don't know. Right we can make simulations that we can make simulations that match what we see in reality. Right now, using to an extent to an extent, almost identically matches what we've seen in reality to an extent that from what we see in

reality. Right, we don't know everything in reality, right, we don't, So is there still room for error in the simulations? We know enough to know that we know enough you're saying we know enough about the universe to not have error in our simulation. All are useful. We know enough about physics to know that if certain four characteristics are different by a small amount, than the universe itself would not exist. So and uh, it would not. I'm going to push back on that. It may not exist in the

way that we currently experience reality. There are certain things like there are a lot of variables. If we changed we might get a result that we just didn't know was possible. And this isn't saying that I believe in those universes, but I'm I'm in the camp of we don't know what the possibilities are.

We don't have a way to actually determine the probability. We can make guesses, we can make theories, but that's not We've been doing that for a hundred years though, I mean, you don't think that that we've do you think Do you think, Billy, Billy, do you think that the things that we know now are going to be the exact same things that we consider be true like one hundred years from now or even a thousand years from now. Do you think our science is so good right now that is not

going to be corrected in the future. I mean, I don't go about I can't go on future knowledge because I mean, right, we don't know. The most honest thing you can say right now is to say we don't know right right, right, but there are things that we do know. You do believe that there are things that we do know though right there are things that we are confident in. Man. We also don't know how many attempts quote unquote there were at the creation of a universe, and even that

word creation is really problematic. There is a singularity that exists that we cannot look past right now, and to suggest otherwise is just using God as some excuse to fill in all of the gaps. Again, this idea of post hoc rationalization comes up, where we say, well, the universe exists, and as far as we can tell. In order for a universe too exists, it has to have these components. So therefore, God, it doesn't

work out that way. You don't know how many possibilities there were for all of this to happen, and to suggest that it proves anything is a little off point. Well, there are two other there are two other um possible or possibilities. One is the eternal ternal inflation and then the crunchdown effect, which is we're like if gravity was too strong by one. Things are all hypothetical the universe, Well, these are all hypothetical. We don't have we

don't have realistic evidence that these are are happening. We have theory and we have hypothetical situations. But it sounds like you are It sounds like you are like taking these hypotheticals and then considering them to be just as good as like experimental reality. I mean, it's the best we can do. That we can't mean, yeah, but the best we can do does not mean that it's sufficient to prove the point. Right, So do you think that these

simulated models are have any value at all? I think they have some value. I don't think they have the value you're giving them. I think that it's a step to learn about things, and I do think that theory is a good way to start asking questions, like I think that there is value to theoretical questions and theoretical models. There's definitely value, But the problem is

when you're saying that the value is greater than it actually is. And that's what I'm pushing back on because I think theory gets you to the point of asking the question and figuring out how we could demonstrate it in reality. But until you make that step to actually demonstrate it in reality, we're limited in what conclusions we can draw from it. And that's why I push backwards. And I'm a little bit curious, billy, like, what is what is

your background? Until so, until we can make universes in reality, then you don't believe that any any experimental data that we create, you know, in supercomputers and solids. I think I think if we could, if we could make experiment, if we could make experiments, if we could make a convincing experiments, I might change to my mind. But the problem is everything you've mentioned is theoretical, so and I don't know what it would take to

convince me that we have enough evidence. But if someone brought that evidence, I might be willing to change my mind. But Billy, what is what is your educational background on this particular field? I don't want to talk about me. I'd rather talk about my argument now I want to I know, I'm curious, like are are you a physicist? Like are you in some branch of science? Like what is what is your education on that? I

prefer to specific to my argument and not talk about me personally. Seems to lack any sort of Credentially, it seems to lack any sort of sophisticated understanding of these models that we're discussing. You point out that these models have been around for one hundred years. So what I'm unimpressed by all of this, and I think that to continue to say, I'm not trying to mischaracterize what you're saying, but what you are saying is that these models prove and that

feels really weak. Well, I mean, they come up the present conclusions, they present a few of you know, hypotheticals, they present discussions, and when when someone gives writes a paper and they have a conclusion section of their paper, that isn't necessarily saying that they actually provided a whole lot of evidence, like they might claim in their conclusion that that is what happened and

that that's a different story. But but just saying that a study has a conclusion written in it doesn't mean that they actually concluded that there's evidence for X, Y or Z. And like, like what Christy is saying, the reason why I'm asking you about your background is is, Yeah, like, I think the level of confidence you have in certain things is not the level of confidence that many scientists would have. And it's I think a lot of

scientists approach these issues with more caution. And there's a reason why you get a lot of conservative language in studies of saying like, under these very spec specific circumstances, this might be something that happens, or this might be related, This might be a correlation, this might be have a also a relationship. Like there's very rarely are they going to say that they are like nineties

something percent confident that this is a cause of relationship. Like like, it tends to be a lot more conservative in how they how confident they are in these claims. And so that's why, like, and I see this a lot with late people especially will will take in information and kind of misread what the data is saying and misread what the discussion is happening a lot of times,

it's trying to lead to more study to be done on it. So can I ask how how did you determine my confidence level in my argument based

on what you said? And that where are you saying that that I seem so extremely confident, Like I think my confident because you made it because Billy, you made the argument that, Billy, you made the argument that we've studied this for hundreds of one hundred years and that the supercomputers are like as close to realities we can get, and then therefore we can make these these big conclusions like you've said, compared those like you actually having a universe,

that we have these simulated universes. Okay, well that's the argument that back and listen to the beginning of the argument you made to the point where you actually what are you doing with that? What I said was that Lester TG three hundred matches with what we see in reality when they run that simulation. It does match with what we see in reality. So I didn't I didn't say that that's as good as we can get, but but it does match with what we see in reality if you can look it up. The point

so what was your point? So what was your point in bringing that up? Then? Well, I mean in that part of the conversation where we were talking about you know, the um you know, precision of simulation. This is so and they're pretty good, right, and you and you displayed a lot of confidence that the simulations could accurately account for variables in reality that

would make you convince that that universe is fine. Tune. Yeah, we plug in the variables that we account for, but there are plenty of variables that we don't account for. And so that was my point, and it seemed like your level of confidence is higher than mine. Wait, how do

you know that? How do you know that? Because there's always variables that we can't account for it, there's always variables we can't And so this is again, Billy, this is why I think that, this is why I tend to think that you don't have as much foundation in this, because it's extremely overly confident and and inaccurate with reality to say that they're that we've accounted for all. But you're just saying that there are always variables that we're accountable.

How do you know that? Yeah, I am saying that that we I mean, that's why it's a simulation. Yes, because we don't know everything, and the computers that we build don't know everything. We cannot know everything. There's there are very few things that I will make an absolute statement about, but that is one that we do not know everything. We know enough to we know enough to make simulations that close and again and again,

simulations are are not actual reality. They are theoretical. And I think we're not getting anywhere with this call. So I think I think, yeah, these simulations are pretty good. Ben like, don't don't put words in his mouth. He's not confident in them. They're just pretty good. I don't know what to do with any model is well debunked. Yeah, you guys, have a good day. Um, it was a very nice talking to

you guys. I appreciate the conversation. Hey care, thank you. All Right, we are going to go a little bit over because there's one caller left and I really want to get to them. UM, so let's talk to Romy she Her in Israel. It sounds like you want to talk about losing, uh, your friends, losing their religious beliefs. Um, can you tell us just really quickly kind of about what led to this call okay.

So, I've been an atheist for a long time, and um, one of my friends recently who used to have like arguments in the basis with all the time, told me that she's sort of fusing her religion and it's because a few analogies and examples I gave her, which I'm fine with. Value is completely fine. You know, everyone is on their on their own journey, and I was on that journey as well. I'm an atheist and

I support that truly. However, it is causing her great distress, and it's one of my first friends who ever like been through something like this. And I don't know how how hard it is myself going from being Jewish and being in a religious school and then slowly because of scientific evidence and that's slowly

going through my own journey. So I don't really know how to deal with this because I'm kind of feel like I'm guilty, and I know how to approach debates like this in the future considering what I feel in a sense, And that's basically it. Because religious people tend to test the belief it's an atheist and that's betey No. I hear that sense of personal responsibility and guilt here, and I guess I just want to speak to that piece of it

first. You know, if you were out about town and you saw your best friend's partner touching or being intimate with somebody who is not your best friend in a situation where you know that's cheating, where you know that that's not okay, and you go and tell your friend about what you saw, they're gonna be hurt. And if you're a dick about it and you're like, you're not gonna believe what I saw, then yeah, you're being cruel and

unkind, But you don't need to feel guilty about what you're sharing. If what you're sharing is true, you know, the fact that your friend is being hurt in that scenario is because they were being cheated on, not because you shared that with them. And the fact that your friend is going through this deconversion experience, I appreciate why there might be a sense of guilt.

And yeah, it's not universally true that everybody would be happier after they lose their faith or after they deconvert, but it's also not your all that they're going through this pain. This is the pain that comes from being lied to by your culture, by your society, by your authority figures, by your family. This is a pain that you did not cause. And I just want to start there, even as you're trying to figure out, well, how should I feel about all of this and how can I offer some support

in this challenging time? How does all of that lane? Is that fair to say? I guess there is. However, I do believe that our face is just one aspect on which I mean the friends you to disagreeing. You know, there's one thing. If someone's like a hardcore right wing Jewish person or fundamental Christian, they vote a certain way and they advocate for a certain thing, Well that's not the taste with her, you know, So I guess I just don't see the benefit in it, considering the fact that

she's been through so much. And I understand that knowing the truth is always better, of course, but it's that's why I feel guilty, because that's the kind of person where I don't mind if they remain in their face because they still do the right thing despite it, whereas many people do not in their face caused them to do horrible hope of things. And those are the people I should like put my efforts on if I even put NFL on more, I don't know. It's just really confusing. And yeah, I mean,

you feel like Santa clause for somebody, and I get that. I you know, if you were to go into a kindergarten and just announce to all the children listening that there is no Santa clause, dick move, don't do that. And yet I feel no discomfort whatsoever sitting here on the Internet in front of an audience of possibly thousands or more talking about how there is no Santa clause because it's just true and it's better for people to know that.

Generally speaking, if you were forceful or aggressive or unkind in the way that you sort of asserted these ideas, then you know, perhaps there are some apologies to be made. But if that's not the case, if this is just you speaking openly and honestly about things that are true and it had an effect on somebody, you can still take some ownership and some responsibility for that impact. You can still offer care and support and resources and acceptance and

everything else. But I would hope that you could give yourself permission to let go of any feelings of guilt or shame over the fact that you said true things to someone that is important to you, and I really quick want to Yeah, I want to quickly jump in and say that this is a great

place to recommend an organization that we talk about a lot. Recovering from religion can help your friend probably and you as well if you're struggling with this particular issue and want somebody to talk to more in debt up to about how to move forward with your feelings on this and also for your friend to be able to talk to somebody and work out kind of their feelings about their deconstruction and

deconversion process. Um. They're very good and they have volunteers available at all times and they can walk you kind of through that process of where to go next. So UM, I can't shout them enough, but highly recommend you and your friend go to the link is here at the bottom of the screen if you're interested in that. Highly recommend for both. Thank you, sure anything else so we can help with you with today? Um, thank you

very much. I certainly hope, yeah, glad to hear it. I certainly hope that you can find some peace in all of this and just remember that, yeah, there is pain here. There is distress here, but that pain comes from living in a society, be existing in a culture that is riddled with lies and magical thinking. You romy, Ben and I like none of us caused that pain. We're just trying to do our small part in being part of the cure. Thank you so much for giving us a

call and trusting us with your story today. Yeah, thank you so much for calling. And I'd love to hear back from you about how it all goes in the future if you're if you feel comfortable, of course, So all right, have a good rest of your Sunday. And that was the last call of the day. So how do you think I went today, Christy? Hey, I mean it was a good time. I there are legitimate confusions, complications, like things to be upset about with regards to pornography

and sex work. I mean, there's so many real things to be really angry about. And I am, I guess just still crossing my fingers waiting for the day that somebody calls in with something other than because God said so exactly, And that's why we're here doing a show like this because and all the time talk Ethan has been a thing very rarely has somebody attempted and argue about porn and not relying on a religious argument. But we're still not convinced

that that porn's a bad thing. So you can always call them the future if if you've got some inspiration now and you really want to have the conversation, you can also call them to a XP which will be on this afternoon if you still have some burning thoughts about porn and really want to bring that up there as well. But if you if you like the show today, and if you like what you see on all the other ACA channels, you

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to stop by. And of course, there are some very important people working non stop behind the scenes to make us look as good as we do on this show. So let's go to the crewcam. Thank you for everything that you do. Crew. Always good to see you supporting us from behind the scenes. We could not do it without you. That's sicular sexuality. Sure, just gotta shout that out. Oh yes, yes, it's a great, great show. Check out the bad catalog. We talk a lot about

pornography, Oh absolutely. If you want to watch more shows relate it to porn, you can. And as I've related to, not specifically porn, but talking about porn pretty much any show that Christie is on. I'm sure you don't mention Google. Let's throw out some love rings for the audience. Our magic isn't working. God, we wouldn't pray hard enough for the show. And so that's there we go. All right, we figured it out.

Thank you to all of our viewers. Thank you for being here, Thank you for listening to Christy and me talk about porn for like ninety minutes. It's been a great time. And whether or not you believe, if you're an essential worker, please continue what you're doing. I hope you've got some positive outlets. And if you have a really hard job that you go out and do every day or even most days of the week, and you

need some time for yourself, it is okay to masturbate. In fact, if that helps you get through your week, we highly recommend that you take some time for that, of course inappropriate context and not around anybody that does not consent. Just make sure, kind but give you some big old orgasm. Yes, give yourself a big old orgasm. And if you don't believe, this is your community. So if you want to talk about porn in the ac D after the show, you'll free to do that. We're a

great community for talking about these things. Go to the Facebook group, have some fun with each other consensually and safely. This is just this is just becoming a sex said outro at this point. And if you do believe, we don't hate you, We're just not convinced by really We want the truth, so watch Truth Wanted Live Friday at seven pm Central. Visit tiny dot cc slash y t tw and call into the show at five one two nine

nine one nine two four two, or connect to the show. I'mline at tiny dot cc slash call tw