Talk Heathen 07.20 with Secular Rarity and Tom Benson

And the righteous will rejoice when they see vengeance done. They will bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked. Wow, what a horrible book, you know. In fact, I don't think there's a single good thing that is exclusively found in the Bible. If you disagree, we've got open lines, call in because the show is starting right now. WHOA, that's right, folks. Today is Sunday, May twenty first, twenty twenty three, and I am your host Secularity, and joining me today is somebody brand new

to the wonderful Talk Heathen audience. It's Tom Benson. What is up? Tom? Hey, that's hard. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I am good. I'm excited to have you on. Man. I know you've already been hanging out with us a little bit here at the ACA. But for everybody here that doesn't know about you, what tell us about yourself? Who are you? What do you do? Why are you here? I guess I mean that's a lot of questions. You don't have to answer all

of those, so many things things all at once. Uh. Well, I run a podcast called uh We're found at www dot whoever we got here dot com or wherever we go there dot com. You can get both them both from work. But we have some uh some some similarities parallels in terms of the folks that we engage with, where we're talking to people out there in the world and great cross over here. So found myself talking to you today and we're dialing in from the East Coast and the Mountain coast here.

That's excited to talk to some folks. Yeah, it's gonna be a good time, I think, folks. And remember Talk Heathen is a live call in show and we have open lines. We've already got a couple of calls, but we have even more lines available, so get those calls in at five one two nine nine nine two four two or from your computer at tiny dot cc slash call t H. And as always, folks, I have

to remind you because I am contractually obligated. Talk Heathen is a product of the Atheist Community of Austin at five oh one c three, nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation of religion and government. All very important things and a wonderful, wonderful organization that is promoting them all. So we are here to do that, folks.

And again we've got some open lines. But before we grab one of these great calls, we are going to do the Question of the week. Talk heathen to me, folks. We do this every single week. We give you a question and we read out our top three answers from last week. So last week we asked if you had your own circle of hell, what would your punishment be? So these are awesome and I am excited. Number three, Chuck Gaido says, in my circle of hell, in my

circle of heaven, you get to toast marshmallows. My circle of hell is the same place, but you are a marshmallow. That's pretty intense. Honestly, I don't know about that. I think I would take being a marshmallow just by itself. Maybe not the toast. Number two we've got from Blake Walker. My circle of hell would be having everybody sit on clouds, playing harps and singing praises to yahweh for all eternity. Yeah, I agree with

that. Yeah, that does not sound like a good time. And finally number one for last week, we've got Marcel Jansen's says, version of hell where you actually have to read the software user agreements you checked okay, on now, that is diabolical, Marcel, that is diabolical. I yeah, if that is what hell is, I might convert im. I'm not an intinit hell yeah right. U Hey, some of those user agreements do feel like they're eternity, Like, how do you pack that much? It doesn't

matter. We're not going to do it. We're not going to be But we do have a prompt for next week, folks, so as always remember, throw those comments underneath the video, don't put them in the live chat. Put them in the comments of the video, and we will grab our top three. But let me ask you, Tom, let me ask you here. If God favors humans, why are they so blank? What do

you think? What do you got? I thought about this one. I thought about it a lot, and I think the question is the question, right, the answers in the question, why why are they so blank? Oh? Oh you just leave it? Yeah. I think it was easier, not just just for me not to change anything. I like that. No, that's that's smart. That's smart. Halfway though, on one side, you got it's nature nurture, and you don't control the nature part because

he's just born with that. So I guess you're not completely blank to some degree, but the nurture that seems like an equally important part. And that's that's blanket. So it seems I do know some blank individuals. I won't call them out by name, but yeah, it's like it's it's it's almost like talking to like, uh, like paint drying on a wall. Sometimes they're good people. I swear they don't do anything bad. They're just not interesting at all. So yeah, I get that. That's that's good.

Well, if you've got if you've got a good answer, and I'm sure I'm sure some of our wonderful viewers do, remember throw them in the comment section, give us your best answer, and then come back here next week for the host to reveal the top three. So I love this little segment that we're doing now. Um, there's always fun stuff and uh, we have a we have a good whacky bunch of people that watch this show, Tom, and they always come up, what was your answer? You know?

If if God favors humans, you know, why why are we so squishy? Okay? And I mean this literally think about it. Okay, Like with with a very small change to our genetic code, we could be just like a heck of a lot stronger, you know, I mean, just like physically in the sense of like things wouldn't hurt us, you know, and so like why why not just have just stronger bones? Even, like why not just have like less like stuff that's so you know, like

one poke to the heart and it's like done. You know, like the brain cannot take a lot of trauma, Like why not just be a little bit stronger? God, Like, I don't know what that's fair, that's fair? But there all those people, you know, you see the people who get in the action. It's like the rod went through here and like up through his brain. He's okay, yeah, right, but he's part of this case study because now he you know, he doesn't remember what the

left side of his bodies do, right, right, right? Yeah. And that's another issue too, like why why is the body? The body is just terrible. Honestly, it is not well designed. It is it is crap. Uh yeah, if you don't know that already, folks, um, you might just be younger than which which is fine honestly, but eventually you Yeah, anyway, we're not going into it. We've got a

bunch of calls and we are gonna get to them. And remember, folks, if you want to call in five one two nine nine one nine two four two or from your computer at time you dot cc slash call t H. Let's go out to Texas. We've got John. He him pronouns and as a theist and wants to talk to us a little bit about atheism, I think, and how to have a how to have a discussion. So hey, John, you're on with Secularrity and Tom, what do you got for us? I hope you guys are having a good day. Thank you

for taking my call. You know this is your show and I appreciate that you're letting me be on it. Um So, so I haven't watched much of the show, um but just because I don't have much time. But I think it's very interesting. But you guys always have a really good response, So I'm not anticipating that anything I say is going to be new or it's going to be like a gotcha. But um, I just was gonna

try to have a discussion anyways. Just wanted to progress with that. Um So, So, first off, and I'm so sorry you probably you guys probably get this all the time, UM, but I just want to if you could give me like a really brief description of why you do this show, like why do you personally do this show? Want to have this discussion in somewhat of a public spotlight, and then then if I could have a response to that. Sure, Uh, Tom, what what are your thoughts

man? Why why do you do this? Why why do you do this in your podcast? And what do you think on that? Yeah? I think conversations are really the only tool that we have to affect change. And for myself, um, I come from a certain standpoint of it's interesting to me to learn where other people are on the spectrum of this crazy thing that

we call life. Um, you know, I made some mistakes, I've done some good things, and I guess for me participating in things like this with the opportunity to have a conversation with folks like you John to understand that the same question on your side, why why do we believe the things that

we believe? And is there a better way that we could all, um, you know, live our lives so that we can maximize the amount of good and minimize the amount of bad generally, That's that's the idea from my side here, So engaging in conversations and trying to understand and effect change. Yeah, and myself nothing to poke out in that answer. That was really good. So so for myself, John, there's a couple of different reasons. One in part, i'd be lying if I said there wasn't at least

a little bit of a selfishness to it. I do just enjoy having difficult conversations where two people are laying out their understandings of a particular nuanced point and trying to get to some kind of middle ground. You know, I do really value that. I do also really value you know, having good reasons

for accepting certain things, is true. Um On top of that, I would say that there's there is a little bit of that more altruistic feel too, which is um me being in the place where I am in the United States, I firsthand have seen some of the absolute horrible things that happen when it comes to you know, bad epistemology and bad ideologies, and so I want to minimize that is as much as possible. So yeah, I think I think both of us Tom and I are kind of in a similar a

similar boat. So okay, well, yeah, those were like really really awesome responses. I was kind of hoping you'd say something that I that I could like take a job out, but those were just so I guess like a lot of times, a lot of times what happens is I think that people try to have UM. So like the idea of UM God or a creator existing or not existing UM is strictly in my opinion, I'm not an

intellectual, but it's strictly a a philosophical question, right. So so what I was going to say that a lot of times you can I can I jump in, hang on, hang on real quick, John, real quick, John, Just I just want to jump in real quick because I think

I think in general what you said there is is probably accurate. But there are certain claims that when made about a god, it wouldn't be just philosophical, right, Like if explicitly somebody said God made my car start that, that's something that's very very physical and would very much be something that we could test, right. But I think a lot of what goes on in these conversations is more philosophical, but not all of uh sure sure sure, um

okay yeah. So but anyways, what ilse kind of trying to get at is a lot of people I think try to and this isn't the brunt of what I was trying to talk about. I don't want think too much time, um, but a lot of people um or who who have these conversations it's about like separation of church and states, for example, which I which I would absolutely agree with. But but but this issue has nothing to do with uh, you know, the possibility of there being a creator or not

being a creator. Um. You know what I mean, Like I believe in a creator wholeheartedly. It's it's the most important aspect of my life. But I absolutely see the point in a separation of church and state, you know what I mean? So I feel like that should be more in a political realm, not in like this more philosophical realm. And I know it's it's it's convoluted. So it's like not entirely fair for me to say that,

But do you see do you see the point that I'm making? Yeah, I think I think in a little bit here and and I'm gonna throw it to you here in a second time to get your thoughts, um in in part I understand what you're saying about the difference between like a political and philosophical you know category when it comes to that specific discussion of separation of religion

and government. Um. That being said, I do see how it overlaps on both sides, and so I don't know that it could exclusively sit into

one category or the other. Um. I do think. I do think though, again kind of what it sounded to me like the core of what you were getting at there, John, regarding you know, maybe it's more important that we discuss with people who are trying to get rid of that separation of church and state and try and you know, have conversation with them that convinces them that's not the right path before we go down that route of of

you know, really harping on whether or not their particular version of God exists. For me personally, the way I look at it is this, if you're a god believer, if you're a religious person of some kind, or you have some belief in some supernatural something, you aren't as much of a threat in my eyes in terms of the general well being of people across this country and world as the individuals who are actively trying to put in place laws

that specifically target and harmful. Right. And so, if if you're somebody who if you're somebody who stands up and says, you know, hey, look I'm I'm all in favor of trans rights. I also happened to be Jewish, Like, brother, you're on my team. You know you're you're on my team because unfortunately there are so many others out there, um that use that religion to to cause such drastic harm. Um. But yeah, let me let me throw it over to Tom real quick, John, and

then we'll get your thoughts. Okay, Well, well, I just wanted to do like a really I can I can we or you can say something. I'm not too but it seems like you know you you have every right you know, to say what you just said about that. I just kind of wanted to briefly, um, express my desire that I think these things should be two separate categories. But it's not that important to me. Could I get maybe more to like the meat of what I wanted to talk about?

Sure, go ahead, and now let I'll let Tom respond to that. Yeah, go ahead, okay, Um. So I just I just wanted to say, I think in modern times, um uh, I think the assumption is that atheism has the intellectual high ground. Um. And you know, there's a lot of good reason for that too. And there's a lot of things that religious people have done um to kind of uh to you know, to kind of allow that to happen. Um. But I just wanted to say, I think it's it's it's a lot more uh complex than

a lot of the arguments that atheists make today. So for example, there there's one group UM on one side, and all they have is their subjective perception, right, and and they view the world through this. Okay, So they they these groups of people think think there's more than meets the eye. They they realize that they're in existence. They realize that they didn't create

themselves. Um. It's it's a complex world that we live in. Um, it's a complex world within ourselves, right, and our thoughts and things like this. So they say, okay, look, I'm not in control of myself. I didn't create myself. I choose to have the belief, not the knowledge, but the belief that there is something greater than me, there's something that created me. Um. There's of course, there's no scientific objective knowledge to support this, um. But yet this is the beliefs of

that group of people. So then there's another group of people that say, no, look, this natural world, this world of matter, that's all that there is. Uh, that's that's all that there that there can be there, there's there's Um, there's no reason to say because if there's anything more than meets the eye. But but the problem is is that this group of people, Um, there's no objective scientific evidence to support this claim either. Um. And I'm speaking in a very broad sense. Um. Yeah,

yeah, no worries. But hang on, hang on talking, Hang on just a second, John, because you've you've given us a lot of good stuff there, and I think I think that's worth um just kind of saying some stuff back because I again, I thought it was a lot of it was really good. Um, Tom, give us give us your thoughts on that real quick, and then we'll kick it back over to you.

John. Sure. I think it comes down to John, and I appreciate that you're coming at this from a really rational standpoint that I think there's there's variants here, right, But from my perspective, I imagine from SRS perspective as well, we're not making the claim but like there's nothing nothing out there. We're just saying we don't know, right, You are You're You're coming at this from an angle of like you you were born in this certain geographic

erica. I could make a number of predictions based on the zip code you were born in about your characteristics, one of them being religious views. Sounds like you're dialing from the US, like, oh, Texas right there, right, So like the odds that you're not Muslim, there's somewhat high there, right. I don't want to get into specifically what I am, but but I wouldn't explicitly, uh say that that's correct statement. Well, so okay, let me let me shout a little bit, hang on a second.

No, no, no, no, all good, all good, John, no worries. Just give me a second here, because I thought I think there was a good bit of stuff that um you had said that

I do think is worthwhile to just kind of touch on a little. Um one of the things you were making a distinction between the groups of people, and you were saying, basically, there's this one side that kind of still has this feeling that there's something else out there, even though they don't necessarily have, um, you know, the total concrete, you know, solid

bullet point proof for it. And then on the other side, you've got these people who are like saying, oh, no, it's probably not that thing, you know, um, but they don't have anything like hardcore solid proof that, like says counter And I think that's a really interesting point.

And the reason that I say that is because there are so many things for every single one of us right here right now, Like I guarantee this, Okay, there is something that you don't believe in, John, and somebody else in your life does and they don't have any good reason to believe it. And you know that, you know that the evidence is not there to be accepting the fact that leper cons are writing unicorns every Thursday from seven pm to nine pm down the main street in your town, right like there,

there is no reason to accept that. But somebody out there believes that. And my question for you is, did you ever once ask yourself if you had that concrete proof that disproved that, and most likely not, So go ahead, don't I get what you're saying? So I would say that the idea of there being a creator or not a creator, it's by definition it's a lot more abstract than some thing as literal as a leprocn riding unicorn, right, So that's a that's a that would be a part of material existence.

So it's it's a little bit different than saying something created me and that's my ultimate truth. Right, So that's that's fair. But the issue is if you if you make something so ambiguous, if from the beginning by definition, something is so ambiguous as to be indistinguishable from all of these other things,

then you're in the same boat as the unicorn and the LEPrecon. You're in that exact same boat because what you have is on one side, you have something that is extremely well defined that has absolutely no supporting evidence, and on the other side, you have something that is so ambiguous that either anything

out there could be evidence or you just have nothing. And so again you're you're kind of in that same boat, right, So um yeah, so yeah, I know I would disagree with you because it's kind of just an unfortunate well unfortunate or fortunate you know, we don't truely understand. But the I guess the hard reality is that you know, we the objective truth, objective reality. Um, it's gonna be abstract. Regardless of what that reality is, it's gonna be abstract. You know, I didn't invent that.

I didn't decide that. Um. You know, however, the truth with a capital t um actually uh is uh, it's gonna be pretty darnick abstract, right, So so we can't just say, oh, it's abstract. So therefore, um, you know, because because whether there's a creator or not a creator, we are dealing. This is a discussion of the abstract. So I just I don't really like that argument of saying, oh, if something is abstract, then you know that just isn't gonna work, do

you know what I mean? Yeah, real real quick, Tom, I'm sorry, I know, I know, just just real quick, because what I said wasn't that it was abstract, right. It wasn't that it just is ambiguous. It is that, by by design, it is purposefully so abstract or ambiguous as to make it almost impossible to fully distinguish if something is actually in support or against it. Like when people say things like, well, God is just love, Well that's nonsense, because we understand what love

is. At least to a degree. Love is still ambiguous and abstract, but at least has defining characteristics. And when you just interchange other ambiguous things with that, that's where I think the difficulty comes in. But I'm sorry, I've been talking too much. Let let me let me let Tom come in for a second. No, I think you guys hashed it out like they were just if you're making the words meaningless, like you just keep going down and say God's God's just whatever, like okay, Like sure, but

we still don't have really good reasons. I'm with you. Maybe there's something I don't know, but I'm not going to call the ball right now because I don't. I just don't have any good reasons. And I've taken enough hallucinogens to know that you can be tricked pretty easily. Yeah. Man, sure that's a good point. Sure, so here, I'll ask this question,

So, like what percentage of so here? The reason that I wanted to talk about this, and I know this is an entirely fair because this isn't the premise of this show, but it's the premise of the Atheist Experience show, is that, um, you know, it's it's proved me, that proved to me that a God exists, Right, that's the premise.

But so what I'm trying to say is that that's, um, that's a dishonest premise because both arguments, either for a creator or for a lack of creator, are on even on an even playing field, so to speak. So does that make sense? Because okay, so yeah, objective truth do you think? No, just let me ask this question, please, please please. I feel like I've been pretty respectful to you guys. Yeah,

you've been just flying John, go ahead. So what percentage of objective truth do you think, uh, you or just the general public uh is aware of? Like what if you had to put up? I have no idea and I don't know how to look calculate that. I don't think there's a way to calculate that. We could. We could, we could wax philosophically as we sit in our basement smoking dubes, bro, But like that is unimportant in my opinion, unless you can justify us to why that would be

super important. Well, it's important because the whole the whole importance of this discussion, does it not? Well you cut out a little bit. Let me let me clarify just a bit. If the question that you're asking has to do with the amount of objective capital ty outside of you and me truth

that I tom, you or the collective humanity currently possesses. I just don't see how that is valuable at all, because if the answer is ninety nine percent, that tells us nothing about the one percent, can't make any claims. If the answer is one percent, then it still tells us nothing about

the ninety nine percent and we can't make any claims. So in either boat, no matter what the amount of knowledge is that we collectively hold, it doesn't change anything about the knowledge that we don't hold, Like, it's still not knowledge that we have. Point my point is is that everything that we think that we see it comes from a subjective perception, that comes from subjective Okay, so we have somewhat of a grass each individual. I was a

largecraft on subjective experience. But these discussions, so you're cutting in a little bit in and out, John, I could just be a connection thing. If you could just say that real quick again, and then we'll probably let you go here in a set because we've been talking for a good minute and it's been a good call. But finish up that thought and then I'll let

Tom kind of say some stuff. So so well, I just I strongly disagree with the premise that that thinking about that about what aspects of objective truth, we understand what we can comprehend. You know, I disagree that that's unimportant. I think that's the most important thing. Everything that we understand is through subjective truths, subjective experience, Right, And then we try to portray

based off of that some sort of objective reality. And you're saying that that doesn't matter, But then how can we have a kind of discussion if that doesn't matter? Isn't that the whole point? Well? In fairness, what I said specifically was that the amount of objective truth that we don't currently possess, how large or small that is, isn't important for the objective truth that we do possess or for understanding that objective truth we don't possess. Does that

make sense? Like if we don't if we don't know fifty percent of a book, we can't make any claims about that book if we if we, on the other hand, don't know only one percent of that book, guess what we still can't do about that one? For said, so it just doesn't matter, Okay, Well, it definitely matter. It definitely matters. So for example, if we could say, oh, we only know one

percent of and I mean I mean consciousness, I mean time space. If we only understand I would say it would be point zero zero zero counts of zeros. And if that is true, then we are inevitably on a level playing field with our adversary, with our with our intellectual adversaries. When having the discussion about a creator or a lack of a creator, does that make sense? No? No, no, no. So it's like, it's

the premise that you're talking about. It sounds like your thing is I you disagree with the premise that you have to provide evidence for a claim to believe that claim. Right. The atheist experience isn't making the argument of we believe this negative claim. They're saying nothing, right, I have no reason to believe the thing that you're saying. So you I can just make all these things like the reason why your your argument doesn't make sense. It's the same

reason as if I believe any other thing. I think it's Hercules in Zeus and like all of that. Why does that not make sense? Like it can the atheists not say, like I need evidence for this right? It's this it's the same thing. Of course, of course you can say that. Yeah, no, that's totally fair. But what I'm saying is that you have a subjective truth that isn't backed by objective truth. I have a subjective truth that also isn't backed by an objective truth. So I'm just trying

to say we're on an even playing field. That's the only person. No. No, But because I'm not making a we're not making a positive assertion about something, right, right, So you don't need we don't need to. I don't need to prove something that I'm not trying to prove. I'm not trying to prove anything. We're not have not saying the same thing, just swapping out X. You're not saying I believe X. Yeah, And my response to that is I believe negative X. Like that isn't necessarily If

if that were the case, I would agree. But if the case is one side says I think leprecrons are writing unicorns down the main street of my town from seven to nine pm, and the other side says, I don't believe that. Here's what I don't believe. I don't believe unicorns are writing Like I'm not saying that. You just haven't given me any any of these unicorn videos. But I think honestly, John, I just ask one more

question. I'm sorry, Yeah, yeah, no, go ahead. We've been on a call for a bit, but yeah, finish up here and we'll go on now. So are you not making the claim for a lack of a creator? Then I take the stance, And this is me personally, John, this is not everybody, Okay, I personally take the stance to say I accept the negative claim that God does not exist. For every version of God I have ever been described, every single one out there fails

logically or does not have any evidence to meet the burden of proof. Is it possible that there is a version of God out there that ontologically one hundred percent exists that I have never heard of. Yes, yes, that is

possible. I leave that open. But every single version of God that I have ever been described, I take that hardcore stance of saying I do not accept that it exists, and I do believe that I have reasons to point to for that, whether it's whether it's a logical inconsistency or a just lack of any you know, determining evidence that would push it over that line.

So and that's jets that again, that's just to me. Maybe not everybody takes that, so maybe it's Yeah, it sounds like maybe the issue is that we agree a little bit more than dreeless, which is often the Hey. But that's good, John. I think that's a great faking place to stop. Man. I love ending on a high note and some agreement. So thank you so much, by the way, John, and please do call us back in next week or in the future, because I think this

was a good discussion. So yeah, maybe you can delve deeper into um, like what you were just talking about of like why you dispute all those Yeah, yeah, I'd absolutely love to do that. But yeah, I appreciate you guys. This is great. You guys have good lines. Thanks to you, John, Yeah, we do. That was good. That was a good way to start this show. I always love a call like

that, um and I do. I think I think he's right. I think there is oftentimes more, you know, both sides, both both Interlockets agree on than disagree, and I think it's valuable for us to point that out. You know. Yeah, I think the only disagreement there is like how much we we agree? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you agree. We're just trying to God, come on, you're with us here we're gonna disagree to agree. Wait a second, well, we still have open lines,

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We absolutely appreciate that. Please show off to everybody else in the chat, Yasmin, and just throw in as many of those emotes as you want. I give you permission, and again I apologize to the YouTube. So let's go and grab another call before all of the mods in the chat start sending me hateful messages. We actually have a super cool call coming to us from California. Matt he him has a little bit that he wants to talk about a pretty cool organization. I think, Hey, Matt, what's what do

you got for us today? Hey, thanks for having me on and thanks for saying that I'm a super cool call that makes me feel super cool. Good good. Well, yeah, I'm I'm Matt. I'm with the I'm a national organizing manager for the Secular Student Alliance, and thank you so much for having me on to talk about our Secular Student Alliance National Conference. It's coming up in Saint Louis on June sixteenth through eighteenth, so and less for

the month. It's going to be at the University of Missouri, Saint Louis. And this is our first conference back in three after three years of lockdown. Wow, we have a really amazing lineup. I'm really I'm really proud of our lineup with speakers including of course our own students seekers from a number of campuses around the country. But we've also got Senator Megan Hunt, she's as Nebraska state Senator and atheists out in proud atheist in there in Nebraska.

We have from around our secular communitor community. We have Andrew Seidel, Sarah Levin, Sam McGuire of American Atheist, Brian Silva of American United for Separation Church and State. We've got really like a really pretty amazing lineup, like I said, I'm quite proud of. And this is an opportunity not just for students. You know this. Of course, we're the Secular Student Alliance where we're focused on students, but we have our community members from around our

secular community joining and our activist partners. You know, not everybody in our lineup, not everybody coming summer at THEIST two. And there are allies just as you were talking about. Um, if somebody is right alongside with me defending trans rights and defending the semporary of church and State, I don't care what else you believe, you're my ally. And so we have this very

excited about this conference. Um. Like I said, it's June sixteen through eighteenth, and our deadline to register though is this Wednesday, is May twenty fourths. So if you're interested in going, go to Secular Students dot org click on our twenty twenty three National Conference tab and get all your information. And we do have some travel grants still available, so if you get it in real quick. If you're a current student, we can also be able

to travel plance. But that's why it's still so far. Is that is freaking freaking awesome. And yeah, if any of our viewers out there are not familiar with the Secular Student Alliance, first off, there's actually some really cool ACA shows where they did them live with some local SSA chapter I believe, So go check that out, super super great episode. But also please go out there and look this organization up, you guys again, Secular Students

dot org. It is an absolutely phenomenal, phenomenal group of people nationwide who are fighting for some real, really great things. Um, and we need all the help we can get. Um. We won't keep you on too long, Matt, but tell us what is one of your favorite things about working with the SSA. Thank you, and you know, thanks for that ringing endorsement. I think, hands down, my favorite thing about working with SSA is getting to know and helping to develop the leadership skills of just really

amazing numbers of our secular community. You know, we really like to be We're not just at universities. We are at high schools, we are at middle schools, we're even making for reas into elementary schools, and we are away for secular and just you know, kids and students that want to question their religious beliefs. We're a place like we're we're at home for you to

do that and have that open discussion. And the leaders that emerge are becoming leaders in our secular community, in our broader activist community, and so just being able to be a part of that is what I love, and that's you know, that's why we're having this conference to help develop that. And then also I want to give a quick plug for our scholarships program, because we are we have our scholarships applications open. It's the link for that is

right next to the conference link on our website Secular students dot org. And please apply for our our scholarships. And that's for any activist who's involved in depending the separation of church and state as well as supporting our secular values and

a broad and a broad wage range of ways. Sorry, hey yeah, heck yeah, Well one more time, Matt, before we kick you off, give us, give us those dates, give us that website, tell us where it's going to be and uh and and hopefully the audience will just be packed full of talk heathen an AXP fans. So yeah, yeah, thank you so again. It's June sixteenth through eighteen in Saint Louis, Missouri or the date at the University of Missouri Saint Louis campus. And then the

register registration deadline is May twenty fourth. Is this Wednesday? See, you've got to get your registration in before me twenty fourth. We also, like I said, have those travel grants available. If you put on that application, we'll reach back out to you about how we can help you get there if your currency. Heck, that is awesome, Matt. Well, thank

you so much for calling us today. Man. Again, I think the SSA is an absolutely wonderful organization, and I'm glad after three years of not being able to do this in person, you guys are getting back at it. So thanks so much, Matt. I really appreciate y'all. Thank you alrighty man, Yeah, that is good. What do you what do you think about that? Tom? Is there a need to have this secular Student Alliance? I mean, why why should that be in schools? Why is

that important? Because the alternative the default is like that, there's so many other organizations that rally around this, and I think to John's point earlier, it's like it's like really difficult to rally around a called It's like probably not really like what are you saying about separation of church and state? There you go like that that's an issue that we just need to do because you don't

every It's like John was saying, we all agree on this thing. We don't want everybody with all these different view saying it needs to be mine. And here in the US we have that to some degree, like the default got on the money and all this nonsense. It's difficult, but I think we all agree did we want? Did you? Whether you believe the creator thing or not, it still doesn't mooove the needle, I guess, right, right right, And again we are all big fans here of separation of

Church and State. Again, folks, an absolutely wonderful organization if you can please go out there and support again Secular Students dot Org. So yeah, we're always big fans of working with other wonderful organizations like them. So now I have to let you all know about another wonderful way you can support us here at talk Heathen and the ACA. You can support us on Patreon tiny dot cc slash Patreon t H, and you could get your name read out.

We always read the top five every single time are doing this awesome show. So if you want to be in those top five, you know how to do it. Tiny dot cc slash, Patreon t H. And the ACA has this awesome channel that houses all of these wonderful shows in audio podcast form only at tiny dot cc slash ae N Podcasts. And so if you want to hear our beautiful voices but not see our beautiful faces, honestly, it's okay. We won't cry about it. I mean I might a little,

but it'll be off camera so you won't have to. But again, tiny dot cc slash a ed podcast. I love that channel because I normally just let it just play in the background, wild and stuff. And you can also become part of the Talk Heathen community in our fan run facebook page at tiny dot cc slash fbt h G. There is always wonderful things going

on there. There's always a phenomenal group of people that are out there talking about all things God and religion and science and supernatural and all that wonderful stuff. And if you have thoughts or would like to engage in those conversations. That is a great place to do it. And in case you didn't know this talk, he then has a TikTok and we will actually be going live

every time right before this show. So every Sunday, like right before this show starts at one pm Central. Go check us out on TikTok, you guys, and if you're not already subscribed, go ahead and do that because that helps us get the message out there. I think we had Richard god be first. Actually jos So, Yeah, great dude, And we always love when Richard is hanging. So we've got a couple of other calls,

folks, but we still have open lines. And maybe Tom said something and you just flat out disagree and you think, oh my god, stand up. I had to pick on you a little bit. I don't think anything I said was flawed to any right, that's right. Well, we are gonna go down to Florida. We've got Nathan he him pronouns. It sounds like you've got some evidence for God. Now how are you today? You're talking with secularity and Tom, how are you doing? Pretty good? Pretty

good? All right? Okay, I usually watched this show, but I you know, usually I see Matt on there another the atheist experience. I'm speaking UM, and I got tomm and what was your name? Well, I'm talking to secularity, but you can call me SR even simpler. Okay, I want to talk about something. UM. You know, it's a it's a little deeper than what we calls like evidence, because I don't really

use that word a lot. It's you know, but I'll use it because there's different kinds of evidence, like material evidence and different things like that, and usually there are circular arguments and um, and nobody gets anywhere with it. And usually uh. That was where I was at for a very long

time until I started getting into instinctual evidence and that word extinctual. I got on more and more because I realized that when I'm in a position of extreme fear or danger, um, whether it's medical, legal, whatever the case may be, if somebody had a gun to my ahead, I mean, God forbid. But in those moments, those moments, I would one hundred percent refer to God. I would go to, oh my God, or help me God, or thank you God for my life being saved or whatever

it was. So I just think that on a deeper level, that that is evidence for God, and I think everybody has that level. Everybody goes to that place, and to pretend that they don't is being disingenuous. I think. I mean if okay, yeah, hang on, hang on just second, hang on, just second, because I think you yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I think that's a good bunch of stuff right there. For sure, Um, Tom, what are you? What are your thoughts on that? Just kind of first first glance. Don't you've

been there? Right? That's are like what he's talking about, that experience, Like I like how you list out legal, medical, Like, Man, I'm sorry for what's going on, Nathan. Yeah, everybody. I mean there's scary things in life, you know, and life. Sure, sure, you're giving us a concept that I think we can all Yeah, yeah, we all we all experienced these things subjectively. Let's be let's be like sincere and really really you know, honest, because we can go and

serve is about evidence for God in the Bible and all that stuff. I'm not even interested in any of that because I think those are just words and making noises, you know. I'm thinking more on a deeper level. Sure, Nathan, do you feel as if your stance. Let's just say, I mean, we could call it an argument, just just a general term, right, just your stance on that right that you know you've had that experience, you know so many other people have had that experience. Do you

think your stance is at all? Weekend? If somebody says they have that similar experience, but instead of calling to God, they call to something else specific, do you think that changes your view? I think I don't think the word matters. I don't. I think whatever they're they're they're saying, it's But what if the claim that they're making is mutually exclusive to the other claim that you're making, Like you say God, but they say Whosi what's

it? And whosie swats it? Actually is an evil goat that sits in the clouds? Right? So like what if what if that moment for somebody else is mutually exclusive and contradictory to your door moment like that sor but we still go there, don't we? We all still isn't that? That? Isn't that a problem because they're going to a place that is completely counter to what you're going to, and you're trying to use that experience of you going

to that other place as justification for the existence of this thing. Yeah, yeah, Nathan, I gotta tell you, like along these same lines, if when you get when it's like really like I'm talking, you're kidnapped or something something like real severe, a lot of people shit their pants. Can we make the claim then, right that there's some shit. God is like the thing that we're really praying to at the end of the day. It's all about shit. Hang on. I don't want this to go towards spear

and anxiety and being attached to that. It can happen in a good way as well, like when a baby is born and you're like, oh my God, thank you guys. Usually people say the word God, and I just find it funny that atheists say the same thing. Yeah, but Nathan, are you no? No? And yeah yeah, Hang on just a second though, Nathan, because um it's it sounds like you you you know, you're calling to us today at least from Florida. And I guess I

wonder how much time have you spent in Kenya? You know, have you spent a lot of time in Thailand or uh maybe with you know, Aboriginal individuals over in like Australia and stuff, because I think you would find that that experience that you're talking about is one that is very, very localized. And when you go to other places where people have different belief systems just kind of embedded in their culture in a similar way that Christianity has been embedded in

the United States culture in various ways. Like you're going to find that their stories are all similar too, in that bit. But like, again, it's completely contradictory to yours, right, So, like You've got somebody out there who has lived his whole life in Pakistan and his response is Inshallah, you know if Allah wills it right, So he doesn't. He doesn't say anything about God, That's what I'm saying. But the claim the right.

I understand that you're getting very hung up on the words. I'm already pass that though, Nathan, I'm in the same boat with you of saying yeah. A lot of times people will use a slightly different terminology to get at an overall concept that they're trying to discuss. Okay, But the problem is

not that the word is different. The problem is that the concept that they're trying to encapsulate with whatever word they're using is contradictory to the concept that you are trying to encapsulate with whatever word, and you are both having the exact same experience that you says puts your side above, puts it on top in

terms of being accurate. And all I'm trying to say is that if one person has that, if two people have that exact same experience but are both pointing to contradictory things, we cannot use that experience for justification for either side. That makes sense, Tom, Do you do you think I'm kind of getting at something here or what are your thoughts on that? And we'll pass right back to you. Nathan. Yeah, Nathan, I'm just in the

same event, like he's talking about two different things. Just imagine like this. I think what you're saying is that this happens on a human level, and I agree, right, But then depending on where you're born and all these other factors, what's jammed into your head, you go, I'm choosing this one right. It's like a spider web of different things that it can get to. And I don't think we're saying that there's some like anti God

that were it could. No. I feel the same thing. I just don't have that that thing's like, oh, it's like it's a god and lives in this guy Beard, et cetera. Right, not that I'm saying, that's what you're saying. Have you ever been in a traumatic situation? And what was the very next thing you said when you got out of that situation? When you work fine? Yes, goodness, holy shit, Yes I have, and holy shit. I've also said other things. Yeah, you're down to the ship down. Maybe I made a point. Yeah,

yeah, calm down, Nathan, calm down. You're getting a little excited. And I don't think it's necessary. And reason I don't think it's necessary is because, like the first call that Tom and I took today, like John was actually in agreement with us a lot more. And I really do feel like Tom and I are, you know, like seventy five percent of the way there with you. It's just this last little, specific, nuanced

point. And I guess what I'm getting at is it sounds to me like this whole time, basically you have said that there there is this thing inside of all the people's all over the worlds now, in the past and forever in eternity, where there's just this little wiring that every so often in these difficult situations, we cry out to something that is bigger and stronger and more cool and awesome than we are. And I don't think Tom and I are

disagreeing at all on that. I just think what we are saying is that it seems to be the case that that doesn't actually point towards any one answer because of the fact that every time that we run this experiment, we get not only different results, but contradictory results, whether people are using the same

term or not. And I think that's the part that we're having difficulty kind of kind of getting the nuance out between us, because again, I think for the most of what you've said, dude, like we're on board. It's just that last little step where you say this experience proves my thing, I don't think it does. And one of the reasons I point to is specifically because that experience supposedly proves something else that is contradictory one hundred percent to

what you believe. And that's the reason if we run the same experiment and we get completely contradictory results, maybe not the best thing to tell us one way or the other. Right, Yeah, Well, time all you said, run the same experiment. You cannot run the same real life experiment over and over as we can die on a motorcycle. You can't keep all up. Are you telling me that somebody having a traumatic car crash is different from

somebody else having a traumatic car crash? Like, yeah, it's not the exact same, you know, Fiat car that got smashed by the eighteen wheeler, But like a head a head on collision is a head on collision. Like you know, traumatic events happen all the time, and to argue that they're exactly the same, of course as silly and not at all what I'm

saying. But I would argue you've basically this whole time been saying that those arguments are similar enough, because they would have to be to prove the point that you're trying to make, Like those traumatic moments for people when they cry out to a deity would have to be similar enough so that you could put a circle around it and go, this is evidence for my thing. So

again, I really believe we're in the same boat there, Nathan. It's just that you take the extra step to say that this does positively confirm a particular stance that you have have and all I'm trying to say is it doesn't seem to be the case if when doing the same thing over and over and over, we constantly get different and contradictory result. And I'm going to let you say some more stuff, Nathan, but then I promise I'm going to

shut up a bit because Tom has not talked. But give us another thought. I'll kick it back to Tom. You're saying for me, Yeah, go ahead, Okay, Yeah, I listen. I understand what you're saying, but I think there's a bit of fallacy there because what you're saying is

the same experiment. I'm still confused about that because if you did run an experiment where ninety nine point nine percent of people that ended up in a major car collision, the ninety nine point nine percent, everyone would say, oh my God, Saint God, I didn't They would utter those words I and if you doesn't have to be God, or it could be something. But they're going to think whatever source that they I don't like the word belief,

but whatever source that they feel. Okay, And that is a real thing, and I think atheists are in denial of that real thing. Okay, That's all I'm saying. No, you can't say hang on, hang on a second, hang on a second, hang on a thing. That's some good stuff. I'm sure Tom has some stuff to say. Go ahead, go ahead, Tom. No, I just I don't know. I feel like we're just we're just going round and round on this. You're saying, it's not the word, but it is the word. It's not the word,

but it is the word. I think we're not them. I'm not denying it. We're Yeah, you can have the experience and you say, oh my goodness, holy shit, that was wild, right, and then you move on, Yeah, what what now? Let me grant you that. What now? Where do we go? Well? I don't understand why are you saying, well, why are you saying holy shit? Oh my goodness? If in fact life was not divine? If if if none of this made any matter, and it doesn't and we believe, Am I not

a divine Yeah? Am I not allowed to call out to unicorns? Like even though I don't believe that they exist? Can I not say? Holy unicorn? But is that like silly? Because that's being stilly though you don't do Why is that? Why is that? Whoa hold up? You don't get silly. Hold up, Nathan, you don't know me. You don't know me. I very silly, and see, like, what does it

matter? Is what I'm getting at. If if anybody in a time of crisis calls out to anything else, that individual action does not in any way, shape or form tell us anything other than the most basic thing, which is in a similar situation, human beings tend to cry out in such a way, like, but that's not surprising. Like you go anywhere in the freaking world and kick somebody you know, in their ass and they're probably gonna

go owes it. That doesn't mean that there's there's some like there's some outside force that is just pain or ow right, Like it's just an expression. It doesn't mean anything more than that. Yeah, But I think that's a little And I use the word silly because right now times are getting silly, and I think that we're living an easy time, and you know, when times gets hard, like during stressful events World War two, whatever, it

was, more people started connecting back to God. And I think that's we're kind of Yeah, I just feel like that. I just feel like that argument doesn't work in your favor, Nathan. Is the problem, Like I feel like what that says is that this ideology is something that when things are actually going well, it's not necessary to make things go better, and therefore it in that sentiment, it just feels to me like it's a security blanket or a crutch. And I would probably agree with you. I just don't

think that that works for your argument. You know, you know, God forbid anything happens to anybody, But when it's something happens, they I can guarantee you they're gonna say thank you God or oh my God, and thank you. That's you know, lepre Coin. That's fair. I mean, I think that's fair that you have that assumption. I think the issue is whether or not you have any proof for that right. And again, I'll use this word again a because I love it, be because you used it.

But I think it's insanely silly to assume that somebody who grew up their entire life in Delhi is going to, in any way, shape or form, say the same say the exact same phrase that you do. And I think not recognizing that is really doing a disservice to your own your own feelings

and beliefs. I know you said you didn't like the word belief, but I think I really do, Yeah, I really do think that that should be something that should shake your confidence in that feeling, because if I had an experience, and then claimed that that experience, you know, was the the reason that I accept this particular thing over here, and then anybody else I knew had a similar experience that went to something different, I would stop

saying that that experience is a good reason to believe, because apparently it can lead us to two contradictory results. So but with all that, Nathan, we are we are going to let you go. I did still think that was a really good call, man, and please do call us back. I know we didn't get to hash out everything, and unfortunately sometimes on these shows don't you don't always have a bunch of time to really dive into it. But I did think it was a really good call, Nathan, UM.

And so I do hope you give us a call back in the future, because I like, I like good calls like that. You know, I like disagreeing, um, but but I also like to, you know, I like when we find out we're a little bit more on the same page something, you know, that just makes me good. UM. But yeah, any any other clothes in thoughts on that Tom before we we grab some other calls here, say thanks, thanks, Nathan, You're just like John. I feel like we're just trying. We disagree about how much we

agree about this thing. Yeah, and then a word or two. Yeah, but we're there, We're with you. Yeah. Yeah, and again I think we suck about the money problems or whatever's going on. Yeah, hopefully there's not too much too much bad stuff going on for you, man. And again there's not hit that donate button. And that's right, tiny dot cc shink hall thh, shameless plugs. I love it. I love

it. I love it. I love it. Well, let me get through a couple of wonderful things here, like we have another super chat from Ariel Elliott. It looks like this person is a new member by the way, too, so five dollars super chat. Thank you so much. And they say, I say, oh my God, when something unbelievable happens, I can't believe it happened, just as I can't believe in a god. I like that comment. Ariel, thank you so much. I really enjoy

that. And we are actually about to read out the top five patrons, Tom, can you see those? Do you have those? I sure do. Okay, hang on just a second, let me let me say some wonderful things here and we will go right into that. So first, folks, make sure right after this show, right freaking after this show three pm Central time today, the newest episode of the flagship show of the ACA the

nonprofits will be airing live tiny dot cc slash hit NP. And I think I've even been told in the past that if you just stay year at the Talk Heathen livestream, it'll just automatically put you over there. But if it doesn't, tiny dot cc slash y t n P three pm Central time today, that's right, the nonprofits, the flagship show, and also the ACA wants you to know what is going on in our community, and for that

we have an updated website, so it is super duper easy. Just go to www dot Atheist hyphen Community dot org and you can learn all about the organization, it's policies and how you can get involved. And we are always looking for wonderful volunteers and we've actually gotten a few really good ones over the last like few months, So thank you all and anybody else out there.

That's interested like it's a it's a really great group of people. The crew does a lot more than just sitting there waiting for the crewcam, and you get to hang out with them. And but finally, we want to hear from you. We want to know what you liked, what your thought was effective, and most importantly, what you think we can do better. So just send us an email at TV at Atheist hyphen Community dot org and tell us all your thoughts or post them in the comments below. We take both

so we look at them. Um, you know, mean things, mean tweets or or nice tweet whatever, whatever you want to do. Um, Tom, you got that list ready? I have the list right here, folks, let's do it. The top five patrons of the week. Here we are top five patrons, starting with number one. I have a quick question. How do you become a top patron? Oh? You just go to uh it's very easy. You just go to tiny dot cc slash patreon

t h yeah, slash patreonh Okay. So if anybody wants to be on the top of the list, they can be doing that right now, right and getting ready for next week. And don't turn that dial because number one we got Dingleberry Jackson, Dingleberry Jackson, thank you for having us read your name on the screen here. Number two AAMA, it could be am am a you know who you are, hopefully Number three, Oops All Singularity, thank you for the fantastic donation. Number four, Devon Belgian. If I'm

saying that correctly, thank you, Devon Devor. It was Devoor Belgian. Number five. At number five, we've got Kallive Helveti, Klaive Helveti. Thank you so much for your donations. Reminds me of that flick like a number Slevin remember, oh yeah, Levin Klevra was his name. Fantastic and I think speaking of that flick an honorable mention. Paul Sherman. That's right, Paul Sherman of Paul Sherman Fame, wwwbot Paul Sherman dot com. Thank

you, Paul Sherman. That's right. Folks. So if you want to hear one of the wonderful hosts here on talk, he then stumble through your name. You know what to do tiny dot cc slash Patreon, t h M. I really do like Oops All Singularity. I just it's clever. It's clever, you know. That's nice. Um, well, we have a couple of other calls. Let's grab another one. We've got Jay no pronouns given, has a question about a couple of different ideologies and education and

stuff. Um, yeah, let's do it. Hey, Jay, you're talking with Tom Benson and secularity. What you got for us? Oh, might not be there. That's okay. We'll just send you back to the queue for a second, Jay, and we will be looking out for you in the future. And that's fine because we have some other good calls. Let's go talk to Rob out in Colorado. He him pronouns uh. Sounds like you're asking about fist reading the Bible and and maybe not maybe not catching

everything that it's trying to say. How are you, Rob? Yeah, I'm doing pretty good. How you guys doing, Oh pretty good? Pretty good? Yeah? What you got for us today? Yeah? So basically, I was a CIS for a very long time, Like all my life, I was indoctrinated from the kid. You know, my parents, my grandparents, um and so on and so forth. Um and UM, I guess I can uh, I guess I can contribute my atheism to my pastor for offering seminary classes to me and where I actually had to actually do some

deep studying in the Bible. And along the way, UM, I was also taking some online courses with biology and you know, learning about different things that I never was really exposed to the Christian in science. You know, my parents never taught me by the evolution. UM. Nobody ever really talked about it around me in the school I went to. Just like most of the schools, they kind of you know, the dialey dally around it. They don't really teach it properly. So I just started, uh shout out

to Fort Valkai. It's one of my favorite biologists by the way, right, I just wanted to say, like, that's what actually put me on my journey to atheism is learning those things first um. And it's not really you know, like I can't learn that the Earth was created through the birth of the Sun and all the other planets in our solar system and then believes that, you know, God created the Earth first and then the fourth day he created the Sun like it. It's like so like I just don't I

guess what I'm trying to say. I don't see how others seas can't come to that real ovation. And then when you get deeper into the Bible, Like my church's never even told taught me the story of jeff though I had to actually learn that on my own by acting style, you know, like they like to keep that one a little hidden for some weird reason. I don't know why. But right, right, Well, Abraham didn't actually go

through with it. Jeffa did so, right you? Ye? Well, well give you a second, ye rob Tom, what what are your thoughts on this? Man? Like? Why why did you? Uh? Why did you think the what? Why? Why do you think it's so difficult, you know, for for people to get away? Oh that's my bad. I started talking and then I wasn't sure where I was going. It

doesn't matter, folks. The point is that I know, for me personally, Um, the reason that it was so difficult to see a lot of those problems that you were talking about, rob Um, is in part something that you touched on, you know, real quickly, which is you just weren't exposed to it for for so long, you know, And that in a lot of times is purposeful. It is it is something that certain ideologies will do in an effort to make it more difficult to push back on them.

Right, it's something that insulates you from having to actually put in work, and that actually is really really nice. So it's not it's not just that humans want an answer for stuff, right. We hear that. A bunch bunch of people say that, and and that definitely makes sense as to why a lot of times we go to these supernatural thinkings, um is because we do like an answer. But you know what we like more than just an answer. We like an answer that's fucking simple. If it can be

easy, peasy, it's it's great, it's so much better. And when faced with another answer that is a slightly more are difficult, it's honestly, it just kind of feels natural for us to want to go back to that easy one because it doesn't take as much work to get there. Right, But I just don't understand, Like, why can't we just ask the question? All right? We have the question where did all this come from? Who create? Ye? We don't know, We don't have no natural explanation

for it. Why can't we just leave it it then until we find one? Yeah? And I think, like, just leave it, like because like we're born atheist, Like I don't even think atheists should even be like a term to describe anything like we're just like it should be really feist. You're you, you just believe like you you're making the claim, not me, you know, like yeah, and real real quick, I'm gonna I'm

gonna throw it back to Tom here in a second. But um, yeah, I mean in part, you know, kind of brings us back to I think our first call, where where we had been kind of asked about, like why do we do this and stuff? Um, and and one of those reasons, for sure, results from the fact that, truly my

position is mostly a response to what people are claiming right. And so it's like, if people out there would just just shut the hell up every so often and stop trying to hurt other people and take people's rights away for their belief I probably wouldn't say so much. You know, I probably wouldn't say as much stuff. It wouldn't be necessary. Like sure, I guess that technically puts me out of you know, a fun hobby that I do every so often, But you know, I'll figure something else out, like bird

watching or something. U. But Tom, what do you think why why is it so difficult sometimes for the believers to see the bad stuff that comes along with that belief. I don't know. I think the question you're asking Rob too is like what do we do about it? Right? Because we're same same team, right, Like, man, how do you talk to him? Do you talk to him about it? Grandma? Are you gonna

talk to grandma? You're gonna convince grandma that after a living however many years, that there's actually this No is sorry, they tricked you the whole time. Nobody wants to feel like that. So it's really difficult to have these conversations. Yeah. I just like even even talking to people, you know, like you like to educate them, like, hey, look check this out, just check check Hey watch this guy, you know why, listen to what he has to say about evolutions, like like check this out,

like really dive deep into it. It's like none of that matters. But God, it's just like God. Yeah, And I think about it. I mean, isn't it comforting when you had God? That was a comforting thing to some degree. There's there's the goods in the bads, and I experienced both of them. But I feel it was abuse though. I feel because like coming coming away from it, you know, like I actually believed in these hell, like it was a real place for me, you know,

And like now I'm free, Like I'm not scared to die. I don't want to die, of course, I got a lot to live for, but I'm not scared of it because I know that there's no bad place that I'm gonna go and burn for all these like I don't believe that anymore. And at one time that place was real for me, you know, the rapture, you know, like when when the news when when my parents will leave the house, you know, and the news will come on or

something, you know, I rush out. I want to see you know, I'm a kid, you know, I want to see us maybe maybe maybe it's today, you know, because nobody knows, that's what the Bible says. Nobody knows, you know, So like, you know, I want to make sure I was one of them, you know, Like am I am? I doing the right thing? You know. It's just you

know, like how can you live? Like I feel so free from living my life under the thought of my every not just action, but even my every thought being monitored fighting Fink the wrong thing, burn and I know, stepping away, stepping away from that Rob just In and of itself, I

think is so is so freeing. Um. And again even though a lot of us on the outside now can see that as a really terrible experience and see how much you know, fear and harm and all that other bad stuff was there, I think you know, Tom is right in that sense where there is a level of comfort that is often you know, found by these people that hold these beliefs, and for them that comfort outweighed all that other

stuff. Now I don't think that's the case, but that level of comfort is something that seems to you know, go beyond all of those other things. So yeah, I know, I know it's a tough it's a tough thing for sure, um, but you know that's why we do stuff like this. And and hopefully if we can have some more good conversations like we've had a couple today, um, hopefully we can we can get some more people to h to kind of step away from those harmful things that that's harming

others and themselves. Because I don't think in either scenario it's good. But we're getting we're getting close to the end. Drob and I think we have Jay back and we always love talking with our theist friends, So we're gonna let you go, but thank you so much for giving us a call today, Rob. I think it was a good one. Yeah, yeah, it was fun. And but of course you know, we've got that wonderful, wonderful Facebook group, the fan run discord as well. Uh, and

those are great places to go go hang out, folks. And as another great place the patreon. Oh snap, oh snap, that's a tiny dot cc slash Patreon. Thh folks, So shameless plug, shameless plug. Um. Also, I uh, you know there's another good place to go. I don't know if you've ever heard of this place, Tom, It's it's this little little spot called Austin, Texas. And see in Austin, Texas, the last Sunday of every month, the Free Thought Library opens up its

doors and they are broadcasting live. That's right, May twenty eight, twenty twenty three. Come on down to Austin, Texas and hang out at the Free Thought Library. Join us for talk. He then hosted by the wonderful Forest Valkai and Sophia Spinna. Sophia actually auditioned for the open h came in for for the open call, and did a fantastic job. And we are so super excited for her appearance, and then after that the Atheist Experience will

be hosted by Forest Valkai and Jim Barrows. Door is open at noon, so we hope to see you there, folks. It is an absolutely wonderful time. It is so so much fun being there, hanging out with people in person and uh and getting to getting to see the Flying Spaghetti Monster. And there's actually a lot of wonderful stuff. There's there's a couple of items there by the way. I don't know if anybody's ever seen this or notice this. There's a couple of items in the background that has Dan's face on

it. So I'm not going to tell you which one, folks, but I'm just going to tell you to look next time the live broadcast is happening, which is actually happening May twenty eight of this month. Pretty little east eke for you there. Yeah, yeah, I'll give you another one coming up on the flagship show that we have here. Look for it. Behind Kelly there's a rock with Dan's face on it. Oh snap, really, profits that's okay, okay, you will see a rock Dan's face on it.

Well, now, folks, you have homework, so look for that rock behind Kelly with Dan's face on it, and the next live broadcast on May twenty eight, be looking be looking for that and sorry Dan about just like picking on you and the things that you have your face on, but like, how did you get your face on sometime? It's really I don't know, it's almost a miracle, Dan problem. Anyway, I think we've got time for just one more and we are hoping to go hang out in

the fan run discord server at the end of it. So it looks like we have Jay Colin in no pronouns given. I think I can click the button. All right, Hey, Jay, you were talking. Hey you're talking with Tom Benson and Secular Rarity. What what do you got for us? All right? Tom and Ben? Yeah, the thing is that too. You you're young kids as far as I'll see you now, as far as the world is pretty much educated. Who do you think is responsible for

this worldwide education? Is it communism? Is it Christianity? Is it a slam? Who do you think is responsible for this education worldwide? Sure? Tom, you want to give us your thoughts and then I guess I guess it depends on where you live, right, I don't know, keep going. Yeah, I think because I was. I was looking at this question Jay before he brought you on, and I think my answer, unfortunately, is going to suck a little bit. And the reason is because I think

there's I think there's something actually wrong with the question itself. Um, I don't think there is a codified ideology that either exists currently or has existed in the past in such a bullet pointed of ways as to like truly be the thing that is, like what has brought us all the goodness and knowledge in the world. I think what has done that, though, is a handful

of different things that had that have given us the right path. Right, so like, for instance, you know, going freaking Aristotle and all his buddies, you know, a long time ago, just sitting around and doing nothing but thinking of logical fallacies like that, that process and that epistemology, that way of coming to understand the world, I think is what's actually underpinning all of this. I don't know if it's fair to just call that science,

because it's kind of a little bit more. It's kind of the you know, the underpinnings of science, is what I'm saying. Um, But yeah, I think that's probably you know, the best, but it's it's it's not a great answer in the sense like you can't just point to communism, you know, and say like ha ha that so does does that? Does that kind of make sense? Jay? Kind of where I'm coming from. We lost Jay, we might have Jay, Jay, I'll give you one more account. That's okay, that's all right, we can get you

back in the queue. I mean we're getting Well, what was the question? I didn't know. I didn't get the question. Yeah, basically the question was, well, hey, there we are, Jay, we can hear you again. Okay, so did you hear did you hear what kind of We both said? Should make sure we're on same page? Who wanted to know? What's the question? Tom? Tom? Tom Ben Jay, Hello, I'm sorry, Yes, we can hear you. Yeah, Okay. The thing is you were somewhat in because I'm from that thought of in,

yeah, which is called Pakistan India. I don't want to go into a I don't want to go into a discussion about Pakistan or India. And we're having just unfortunately, Jay, just some some audio troubles um and just for you know, just to be kind to you, and be kind, to be kind to all our wonderful viewers and stuff. We are just gonna move on here, and uh, let's see we've got some good stuff here,

I think, Jay Gait. Sure, Jay, if you can still hear us, join the Patreon. That's a great way that you can submit your questions. Write it out. We'll get back to you. Yep, but we do. We could. You could be at the top of the list. Remember Dingleberry. You could be the new Dingleberry. Jay be the new Dingleberry. That's correct, That's correct. And it looks like we got

one. We got another call here. Okay, so hang on, Frank, because before we pick you up, I want to let you folks know that if you're sitting around you know sometimes and you're feeling you're feeling like you just don't know what to do or where to go, and you want to catch more of the some awesome ACA shows that that happen all over the YouTube's and the internets, well guess what, We've actually got your freaking covered. Okay, So no more crying, no more complaining, because you can just

go check out our twenty four seven a xp TV live stream. That's right anytime any day anywhere any I didn't have a fourth one. Actually I probably should have thought about that before. Anyway, anytime anywhere, you can experience a constant stream of shows, clips, and specials from the over twenty six

seasons of the Atheist Experience, folks. So you watch, listen whatever, put it on in the background, clean your dog or your kitchen, and check out some of your favorite hosts and discover some really cool hosts that you have probably never heard of. So tany dot cc slash a XPTV to join in on that fun. And now we're going to go out to North Carolina real quick, Frank. No pronouns was given, just we we got just a few minutes here, Frank. But what it sounds like you want to

talk a little bit about the fine tuning theory or something. What you got for us, Well, well, um I've called in on the previous occasion and made a reference to um Alan Gus with the Institute for Events Study at Press at Princeton, and he had said that the constance the physical, the constance in physics that pertain to the universe are so precisely calibrated that that it would be a gazillion gazillion to one, that they were merely a product of

chance and the uh the speakerism I was talking then said, well, the fine tuning UH theory or hypothesis has been debunked, and okay, I'd like

to hear more about that. Um, you know the particularly you know, physicists of late have come up with a concept of dark energy and energy inherent in the universe that is causing the expansion of the universe, and that if it were off one digit at the seventh decimal place, then the universe would never have manifested because matter would have other coagulated too much for start plants. Real quick, Frank, I'm just gonna jump in because I think I might

see where a little bit of the issue is. So. Unfortunately, when people speak, oftentimes we're not perfect with our wording, right, and individuals that are at a very high level of education often speak to each other in very specific, nuanced jargon. Okay, And sometimes when they try to speak to us that are not so heavily involved in that particular field of study, they use some words and they say things in a way that doesn't fully explain

what they're trying to say. So I have heard many of many of no no, no, no, no, no no. Hang on, hang on, Frank, hang on, Frank, Hey Frank, Hey Frank. We're having a good conversation. It's only like two minutes and thirty seconds in. I don't think there's any need for animosity or hostility. But what I'm saying is that oftentimes when physicists, when those high level academics say things like, if this thing were changed by blah blah, then this would be the

case, or it wouldn't be the case. Okay, So what they're talking about is if all of the other constants in the universe are the same today, if everything else that we know about existence is how it is, and then we just flip this one dial one click over that screws everything up. But we don't actually know that another system with slightly different clicks of the dial

could actually work together. Right. So it could be the case that gravity is tuned just a little bit differently, but the weak nuclear force would also have to be tuned differently, right. So oftentimes when they say that phrase, it's not exactly getting the whole bit of information across. Does that make a little bit more sense though, when you think about it, like that. Oh, hang on, I'm sorry, I didn't one. Now I've

got your sorry. But also the person with whom I was speaking said, well, you know you're only referring to one universe and that's not a statistically significant sample. Well, the universe as we know it is at least thirteen point seven billion light years across according to the James Hubble deep Field experiment. But I want to say, well, how many universes do you need? You know? And also that is intriguing and mystifying to me, as the

multiverse theory is. I wonder if there's indeed any proof per se for the multiverse hypothesis. I think I think more physicists have stepped away from that in the most recent years, although I'm not one hundred percent positive on that um but because because we are getting close to the end and I do want to

have some time for the phaner and discord and stuff. Frank, but let me let me throw something out to you, okay, and then and just tell me if you've ever heard of this, Okay, have you heard about the potential for the discovery of a fifth fundamental force in the universe? Have

you heard anything? Does this ring any bells whatsoever. T Well, the only thing I really know about that is that Einstein could not come up with a grand unifying series that he couldn't reconcile gravity mathematically with the weak force, the strong force, and electromagnetism. Boom. So you are on the page. Okay, So you are You are on the page, Frank. Okay. So that is a big deal that there are only four of those, And it is a super big deal that the weakest of which gravity is the

one that we as the observer, experience more than anything else. It seems to have the strongest hold on our life, but in fact is incredibly weaker. Okay, So a couple of experiments recently done smashing some atoms together, large hadron colliders and so forth. Okay, we may have we may have been incorrect about the mass of a subatomic particle called a muon mu o n. This is very, very brand new cutting edge. Oh my gosh,

could shift everything in science. And the reason that I brought all of this up is just really to say, like a lot of times, where we're at is a place that has taken a long time to get this level of knowledge. But the idea that that is the end point for the knowledge is almost always wrong, right, And that's good. That's good that that's the case, because it means that we can continue to learn about things and understand

things and find out better answers. The difficulty, I think lies in the ability for us to say that stuff that we don't know about is just freaking that. It's a question mark right now, and we can postulate ideas as to what could be the case, but actually trying to get to any claims right from the rip just falls flat on its face because it's already a category

of existence that we've said we just don't understand. And I think that is the most freeing place to be. When you come up to a question mark, leave it as a question mark until you have good reason to put something in that box. And that's the thing that I don't want us. I don't want us to take that next step of saying what this fifth fundamental force

is, because we're not there yet. We think there could be one, We think it could unify everything, We think it could explain all this dark matter and stuff, But honestly, we've been trying to figure out about dark matter and dark energy since like the seventies, I think. But before we let you go, Frank, let let me get Tom just shout some thoughts at you. What do you think about that? The fine tuning? And

you know, do we know everything about the universe or what? I don't know, man, this is this is all this is like Forest FALKEI and yeah, yeah, yeah, mikey stuff. Yeah, I don't know what what done? I always what what done? What? What now? Frank? And I'm not like being combative, Rank. I assume you would have said the same thing SR would have said if you've known it just now.

I don't necessarily know the argument, but yeah, that's cool. I think you change your name from SR to pe Professor Elliot because you've very well said. I don't think I can add anything to that. Thank you yet. Well, Frank, like I said, we are going to let you go

just because we are close to the end. But please, especially if you see me on again in the future, please give a call back in a little bit earlier and and we'll try to get to you, um even sooner, because I love to have long, long conversations where we can really really

hash things out, and unfortunately we just sometimes are not able to. But That's okay, folks, because I think it was an awesome show, and Tom and I are gonna wrap all this bad boy stuff up real quick so that we can come hang out with you wonderful people in the fan run discord. That's right, But before we do, I gotta remind you that the prompt for this week is if God favors humans, why are they so blank?

So fill in that blank for us. Reply in the comments below this wonderful video, and remember to tune in at the beginning of next week's episode and you can hear the top three answers, and one of those top three might be yours. So let's see what else. Yes, that's right. You can like the video and subscribe to the channel. Again. We are so freaking close to ninety thousand subscribers and that means the world to us,

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Podcast. And you can hang out in the wonderful Talk Heathen community in the fan run facebook page tiny dot cc slash fe t h G. And if you want to catch Tom and I hanging out for a little bit before the awesome, awesome new episode of the flagship ACA show The Nonprofits, which again

airs at three pm Central Time today tiny dot cc slap. If you want to have some fun with us before that, you can come over to that fan run discord server the ACD tiny dot CC slash a CD discord and before we show that wonderful crew cam and get this wonderful love rings up there, Tom, tell everybody real quick where they can find you find us more www dot however we got here dot com or w dot hooever we go there dot com we got both domain easy, easy, peasy, and you can hear

Tom say some wonderful stuff. Um. Let's show those beautiful faces, those hard working crew members that make us look like we know what we're doing. That right there fo Yeah, it's honestly, it's all the cat the rest of them don't there. But let's can we get can we get some love rings? Can we go? Can we get a little bit of I love it? I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it. Well, Uh, we definitely have to thank our viewers.

All of you help keep this running. You are the reason that we do this, UM, and whether you believe or not, if you are an essential worker, seriously, thank you so much. UM. I know that these last few years have been a lot and we are still unfortunately not out of the woods in a lot of ways. UM, but we can all

do some very very simple things and play our part. So if you don't believe, do remember that this is this is a home for you, This is a place, and there are so many, so many wonderful pier um. And I know what it's like to have those moments where it just feels like the whole freaking world hit you all at once and you just feel like crap, Um, that's okay, it happened. And just remember that you

don't have to you don't have to suffer in silence. In fact, don't please reach out to somebody here, Um, hit us up at that email, or hang out like I said, at that wonderful Facebook fan run page, or or or in the ACD. So again, it's it's it's all that make us want to do this, you know, it's the community. So without you, we're just sitting in our houses just talking to nobody. So but Tom, you know how, you know how we like to end

this show. Amen. Well, okay, so what we do is we do this thing where I say, if you do believe we don't hate you, and you say, we're just not convinced. You're ready? We got it all right? Pretty simple, Okay, So if you do believe we don't hate you, We're just not convinced. We'll see you next time. We want the truth, so watch Truth Wanted Live Friday at seven pm Central.

Visit tiny dot cc slash y t t W and call all into the show at five one two nine nine one nine two fours, or connect to the show online at tiny dot cc slash all tw