Was Ratcliffe Right On Immigration?

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We're joined in the studio by one of the best connected journalists in the country, the political commentator and broadcaster Benedict Spence. Down the line, the Labour MP for Hull East, Carl Turner. Good morning, Mr. Turner. Good morning, Matt.

Uh listen, we'll get to some of the big topics of the day in relation to government policy. Can I ask for your reaction to the comments of Sir Jim Radcliffe? Was it an example of wrong language but right message? Look, I think to be fair, I think he's entitled to say what he thinks. he wants to say, but I think he was wrong, frankly. I think we Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd.

Well, I think we can all agree that s many immigrants make a huge contribution to this country. But did he have a point that given the state of the national debt the country's finances, Carl? that if you have too many low skilled immigrants coming into the country, it's a net cost to the taxpayer. Well I think there's gotta be a balance and frankly the Labour government are doing everything we can to stop illegal immigration, people coming in on dinghies across the Channel.

But frankly, we're not doing enough fast enough. That's the reality and that's why people are getting cheesed off with us, I think. I mean is is is scrapping the Rwanda plan an example of doing everything you can to stop illegal immigration given it was the only deterrent we had, Mr Turner? Well the Rwanda plan was incredibly expensive and I think what was it, two people w went back to Rwanda with five thousand quid in the pockets. I mean it was hardly a deterrent, it was more of an incentive.

Uh what would you say to the Irish Taoiseach who at the time complained about the Rwanda plan before it even began because so many migrants were not hitting the UK and heading over to the Republic? I didn't know that's what it the Irish Taoiseach was saying, frankly.

Well indeed, and uh I will say that uh Rishi Sunak was very happy to trumpet that at the time. Uh can I ask you, Carl, about this intervention from the former Deputy Prime Minister, Angela Rayner, in regard to pubs? She and Andy Burnham have joined forces to effectively suggest that hospitality venues like pubs should be spared the worst excesses of VAT. Do you share that view?

I've not seen the detail, Mark, if I'm honest with ya. I'm in Liverpool All Day Hospital with my little girl who's had made your surgery, so I've not been on top of it yesterday. Oh listen, we wish her well and we're we've got prayers for a speedy recovery for your daughter.

It's very kind. But I think the reality is if you speak to most publicans they say that what the government are proposing is not quite enough. That's the truth. Fifty percent of What was promised is is hardly enough to cut the mustard and people are worried who if you're a publican, frankly, you are concerned about your business. Well indeed, so Angela Rayner and Andy Burnham, Cole, have called for more tax support for pubs.

in a fresh challenge to Sakir Starmer's authority. Now they've suggested the PM should cut VAT to ease pressure on struggling businesses. A policy I suspect you would support Out of which departmental budget would you pay for that support? Well, I don't know. I've not said I agree with it. I would have to look at the detail and find out. I would probably instead of saying something publicly about it, I'd probably speak to Rachel Reeves and the PM rather than going off publicly.

But I mean in principle, do you think hospitality venues need support given that they're a big part of the economy, they're part of the social fabric, they're a focal point for our communities, and they are a big employer of young people? Surely it's a no brainer. on talk breakfast at seven sixteen to go, Yes, I would support hospitality. Well, I do support hospitality and what I say is that my local boozer in the village where I live in Hull is the community hub. Frankly

it's somewhere where people often go to have a pine and socialise. The reality is people are at home on their own a lot of the time, if they're single and getting on a bit, they'll want to be going out and doing something and It's too expensive actually. It's part too expensive. I'd have to get I'd have to look at the detail of it. What is the point of your warm words about old people having a pint at lunchtime if you can't back it up with a policy that would actually help these venues?

'Cause I'm not prepared to back Bernam Moraine's policy without having a look at it and speaking to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That's the reason. But do I in principle S uh support more support for pubs, absolutely categorically. Yes, I do. Well what would that support look like, Carl? Well, I'm not the Chancellor Mark, bless your cotton socks. I know you'd like me to get me out of it. You could suggest, for example, that pubs should pay less VAT so they can stay open.

And that could come out of a different departmental budget. Perhaps the Department for Education or the NHS could live better within its means and that could go to our landlords. Well you could suggest that, Mark. I'm not prepared to suggest that. I'm prepared to work with the Chancellor of the Exchequer to find out what she can do, if anything, to support pubs. I'm happy to support her if she comes up with something. I think she needs to look.

Uh what do you make of those statistics that seven or eight pubs are closing every single week? I think it's devastating, but I think five thousand boozers closed under the Tories.

I think what we really need to do is get together and work on a plan to save the boozer because actually it's an important community hub. W would you would you acknowledge that the reason why the pub closures have accelerated is the national insurance tax raid the red tape surrounding workers' rights and the increase in the minimum wage.

I'm very pleased about the uh support for workers. I think the government should be proud about the fact that for a first time for a very long time people who go and work for a living, get up in the morning and go to grass. have been supported by a government that was on their side. Well it's bad news for pubs, isn't it? Because it makes it harder for them to hire people in a casual basis, such as uh Zero M.

There might be other mitigations that can be put in, but in relation to workers' rights, I'm a big fan of workers' rights. I'm a Labour MP. I mean the public landlords are not. So I mean you keep saying that you support the pubs, but all of the policies I've outlined are hurting the pubs and you won't tell me how we're gonna support the pubs financially. I don't think the national insurance increase was a mistake, personally. Uhhuh. Said it at the time.

I think in relation to not for profits, well you've not cross examined me into some concession, Matt. Don't congratulate me No I think it is. I think you've got one part of the jigsaw puzzle that explains why eight pubs a week are closing. Doing it yourself all exactly. This is the got obsession. This is the doing gotcha. You've been gotcha. I've taken you down, Carl. Well, the reality is look, I've always been concerned about not for profits and charities.

paying NI. I think the there was a a a very uh clear uh indication to local authorities there have been savage using the resource to help communities. I think that was a problem. Most definitely, and I agree with you. There you go. We found some common ground. Angela Rayner, she's much better at politics than Keir Starmer. She should be Prime Minister, shouldn't she, Carl? Look, we've got a Prime Minister, we've got a leader of the Labour Party. That will be just

We've got a leader of the Labour Party who has to be the PM. You know, the electorate put us into power on july twenty twenty four with a fairly strong mandate. I mean what do you want him to do? Pack his bags and leave just because a few people are saying he's not very good. Don't give me ideas.

I think that Mr Blobby would do a better job than the Prime Minister at the moment, Carl, given the fact that We're now anticipating the slowest growth in a hundred years. Inflation is sticky, almost double the Bank of England's target, and we've seen the return of the old enemy unemployment, a bit ironic from the party of working people who now it turns out aren't in work. Well the truth is i I mean it The first 18 months have been a bit difficult.

We've made a few mistakes. I think the Prime Minister's over relied on advice, which hasn't been very good advice. Yes. I think what we need to do now is get a grip of the stuff we're planning, the stuff that was in the manifesto. Don't don't take Labour MPs by surprise. Crack on and do the stuff we promised, and let's see what the country make of it in three years from now.

Uh there are challenges. If Sir Keir Starmer were to step down, Carl, let's just imagine a scenario where he's no longer Prime Minister. Do you think Angela Rayner would be the preferred candidate and could she fix those problems that maybe have happened under Starmer's leadership.

I think Starmer can fix the problems by not over relying on advice, which I think was poor. I mean, look, we've got people coming out now, Mark. If you want to talk about something which is a serious thing and it's happening. Ydw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n. Liber and peace are briefed against.

if in fact they have the audacity to speak against policy. Um to me, I don't like the idea of jury curtailment. I think it's a bad idea. I don't think it's workable. I think we should scrap the idea completely. But if you say that as a Labour MP To start to brief against you. Those are the things that Keir Starmer as Prime Minister can fix. And that's what I want to do.

Carl, uh before we let you go, thoroughly enjoyed your company this morning. Uh you're a man of common sense and ideological consistency. What do you make of this headline in the Daily Mail? Labour opens door to trans children in primary schools. It's the idea. that little Johnny can become little Joanna at the age of five or six. Uh surely that's not appropriate for such a young child in a setting that's supposed to be safe. If the headline is right, I think it's absolutely Stark Raving Barmy.

There you go. A straight answer to a straight question. How rare from a politician. Carl, thank you for your valuable time. Have an excellent Friday and let's catch up soon. I've got an idea of how we can save Britain's pubs.

Carl Turner and I are going to go and have a pint at one of his excellent locals in Hull East. And that's how we gotta do it. Because one thing we can do obviously reduce the amount of tax that hospitality venues Uh paying. The other thing we can do is use our pubs more. That is the best way to save them. Uh Carl Turner, thank you very much for that. Benedict Spence, your reaction to what Carl Turner had to say there.

is that the the closure of pubs relates directly to the sale of pints of beer. Because that's what a pub ultimately is for. I know they do other things, but that fundamentally is what it's about. So why is it that for a five pound pint of beer, which in itself is pretty staggering that we're talking about five pound pints of beer being fairly standard across the south of England now?

A pub will make about 12 pence profit on a five pound product, 12 pence a profit if they're lucky. And it's a cumulative thing. It is the perfect encapsulation of everything that is wrong in our society. Because it's not just the taxes, although they are a huge part of it.

It's everything. It's the impact on agriculture. Because of course, you know, twenty percent is the b uh you know of the cost is, you know, the the seed, it's the grain, it's the process of making the beer in itself. Yeah, so if energy costs are high And if agricultural costs are high, then that has a knock on effect, and we both know that those are very high. If things like the water system is not working properly, as we all know it isn't in this country, that has a knock on effect as well.

And then of course you have the massive lobby in this country from the health fanatics. That say that actually the socialization that you get from going to the pub, the community, that's not important because we need people to be drinking zero alcohol. the impact of changes around motoring legislation. Yeah, the reduction of the minimum amount of alcohol that you're actually allowed sorry, the maximum amount of alcohol you're actually allowed to drink before you can drive.

Things like that, changing speed limits so that people it takes people longer to get to the pub, little things like that. All of it builds up. on the process of killing off the br great British Bob. Now, would cutting tax help? Yes it would. Huge numbers of pubs would absolutely love that alleviating amount of pressure being taken off their shoulders. But it won't save the industry long term because everything that goes wrong in the UK at some point

has an impact on the public. You want to talk about migration? People coming from places like Pakistan and the Middle East, they don't go to the pubs, they don't use the pubs. So you've got millions of people coming into the economy. Are they contributing to the pub economy? No, they're not. Are they contributing to the nighttown economy? They're not, because they don't drink alcohol.

You see what I mean? It's one of those things where almost it's the everything crisis. If something is going wrong in the UK, there's a good chance it impacts your pub. And it's not a surprise, therefore, that so many of them are closed. The brilliant Benedict Spence. Join us again soon, Benedict, a broadcaster, political commentator. What an interesting conversation.

Thanks uh to the policies of this government, it appears now that Britain will have the slowest growth in a hundred years. Let's get reaction from a top entrepreneur and former star of the BBC Apprentice Show. Lubner Zaidi. Lubna, welcome back to Talk Breakfast. Good to see you again.

Hello, same here. Uh you have to excuse me though because I'm still experiencing a very itchy cough, so if it starts, I'll try not to die live on air. Well look, I'm glad that you've soldiered through your cold. I think you've got the same thing that Claire Catinho's got and it's going around. Uh but there is another pathogen and that is recession, uh low economic growth. Are you surprised by these figures that project g glacial growth for the British economy?

I'm not surprised and I'm actually expecting things to get worse. It's very clear that I mean Rachel Reeves doesn't know what she's doing. I still have the image of her crying in Parliament. That doesn't give me a lot of confidence.

You know, I mean I don't mean to be rude, I've had my fair share of online drama. Um but still I'm not running this country. So uh you know, she's saying a lot of things that she's positive about the growth next year, etcetera, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But actually the Bank of England is expecting

Mae'r dyfodol yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn cael ei fod yn ca

seems to be the lowest in economic growth in a hundred years. So I mean all the indicators are actually quite negative. And but but th it's not surprising to me because I mean all the drama and the clown show that we experienced last year with the leaks of the the budget leaks and, you know, peop the government changing what what's gonna happen You know, we need to invest in this country. Businesses will not invest if they do not have certainty, if they don't have

stability. They need to trust the government in terms of that the the government's gonna do the right things. And everything the government has done has been counterproductive. All we've done essentially in this country is a attacked businesses. Why would they want to invest? Unless the businesses invest. How are we gonna achieve economic growth? So I think that is is it you know, I'm not surprised. Actually, I feel like I'm bracing for the worst.

twenty twenty six will be um I'm expecting it to be um a worse year than twenty twenty five.

and we'll see what other drama the Labour uh party will create this year we'll see. Do you know of wealth creators and figures in the business community that want to leave Britain? I mean I I I haven't heard of anyone who wants to come to Britain. I mean, whether it's online, whether it's you know, conversations people have in private.

Who who is speaking about ever coming here? And actually we're always telling our um entrepreneurs and uh uh the businessmen and women off all the time. You know, and we're seeing this kind of stuff with uh Sergium Ratlick Ratcliffe as well. I appreciate that some of the comments he made, some people haven't

um liked. However, still he is someone who has contributed to this country and we're just attacking businesses, businessmen, businesswomen, entrepreneurs all the time. If you're if you are someone who wants to work hard in this country, you get the whip. You're attacked

Um, you know, we're not we're not encouraging people who can actually contribute to actually contribute and work really hard. It's the opposite. We are encouraging people to sit on benefits essentially. Why would I wanna work hard? There's so much red tape around if I want to start a business, if I wanna do anything.

You know, if I want to climb the corporate ladder, just say I'm I'm working in a professional job, the tax increases are so high, it's not worth it to me now to try to um it you know, go go up. uh in terms of the corporate ladder professionally either. So it's just I might as well just stay where I am. So I think um yeah, I'm not hopeful. I think it's a clown show. I don't trust the government. I don't trust Rachel Reeves.

Um, there's gonna be more drama in twenty twenty six. I think it's highly disappointing and um you know, I feel like we need to watch this space but um I would love to actually leave uh the country, A for safety reasons, because of what I've experienced, but also because of the future for my children doesn't look bright here either. And I feel like those people who are living on benefits

they're likely to to benefit. Whereas I'm someone who wants to do well, I want to contribute. You know, I love this country, you know, don't get me wrong, and I'd love to be part of turning this country around. However, there seems to be an active force, i.e. the government, who should be leading us.

into a positive direction. There seems to be an active force. It's almost as if they are are our enemy. You know, these people are supposed to be leading us. They're supposed to be supporting us. But they seem to be against this country. I mean I just can't fathom it. It's just Crazy. Well that's right. I mean we've got policies that are destroying growth from a government that said it was going to be the most pro growth government in history.

The old enemy of unemployment is back. That's on the rise. Ironic from the party working people who it turns out aren't in work. inflation, which is a tax on everyone, especially the poor, is at almost double the Bank of England's target. So the statistics aren't good. And also this sort of low level of growth Uh is it's an interesting one, isn't it, Lubner? Because if you've got below one percent growth, that is an effective recession for my viewers and listeners.

Exactly. And it's sad that um Rachel Reeves is she doesn't come across to me as an honest person. You know, I appreciate that politicians need to say things that, you know, will make them look good, but you have to come to the point where you have to be honest at least with yourself, you know, in terms of the situation in the country and, you know, um it is

sad because if you look at GDP per capita that's actually down and for me that is the most important indicator more than the total, right? So um I feel like the uh the KPIs, the key performance indicators that the government is focused on are the wrong ones. And um, you know, I feel that they are incompetent sadly sadly. We need more competent people and we need those people who are honest enough

to lead um and be be honest about the situation in the UK. But I feel like they're doing the decisions they're making are more to make themselves to protect themselves more than the country. We need someone who can um lead and look at the long term vision. We're always looking at the short term and then in the long term of course that's not working in our favour. So um you know the They are responsible for this country.

They need to take responsibility if something does not go right. Lubna, briefly if you can, so Jim Radcliffe, who you mentioned, has talked about the cult of welfareism. Britain clearly lives beyond its means, a view that I suspect you would share given your earlier comments. Um what about his suggestion that Britain's been colonised by immigrants? Is that a case of the wrong words but the right message?

No, I think it's exactly the right word. I mean, if you look at the dictionary definition of colonised, this is exactly what's happening to the UK. And now I appreciate that the word colonization has been linked to um, you know, negative sentiments in the past in terms of either Britain colonising other countries, etcetera. However,

the dictionary definition is bang on. It Britain has been colonised. What else would you call what's happening to Britain? I mean, even when I was growing up, Britain looked diff different.

and it does seem to be a different country now. And I'm quite fed up of people always speaking about the good stuff about multiculturalism and not being honest about the the drawbacks as well. You know, I'm happy to talk about the you know, good impact of multiculturalism, etc. etc. However, there are drawbacks and I feel like those people who are honest about the situation and how they feel, they always get penalized.

And most people have had enough now. They just want to speak their truth without people um gaslighting them essentially, right? So Sergeant Ratcliffe, he spoke his truth. And by gaslighting him, he's not gonna change his opinion. He's just not gonna maybe use those words.

But a lot of people share the same sentiments as him, including me and my parents were born in Pakistan. You know, so and even my mother who was born in Pakistan, she she can see the change as well. Like she's obviously lived here longer than me. She's like, This country's not the same country anymore. So we need to

stop assuming that it's only people who are white who feel this way. It's actually also a lot of um people from an immigrant background like me um who who share the same sentiments and I'm I'm fed up on being silent. You know, this kind it's not in the interest of this country to have more and more people here. A lot of these people are just economic migr migrants.

Um they don't necessarily want to contribute. Yes, there are lots of people who are contributing, but there are also lots of people that aren't. And we need to be able to speak our truth. So the truth shall set you free. Lubner, it's been a pleasure to have you on the show. I hope you'll join us again in the very near future. What a fascinating conversation, Lubner.

Zydi is a former apprentice star and entrepreneur. Something else you don't want to miss is the wise words of Anne Whittakom, former Home Office Minister, now Reform UK supporter. Good morning, Anne.

Good morning to you. And it's great to see you again. Did Sir Jim Radcliffe say the true bit out loud? Well I think the problem is is solely with that word colonised,'cause everything that he said um, apart from that, is absolutely accurate. Um the fact is that both major parties are paying lip service to curbing immigration, only the lip dems are not.

Uh, and uh why are they doing that when they've always, you know, taken a much softer line? Well the answer is because they know uh that the the British public are utterly fed up and worried. uh by the sheer levels of immigration uh that are now happening. So he of course he was right to speak out, of course he was. Now he himself has said, you know, that that one word, you know, well if it offended people, you know he didn't mean to, but

But he's doubled down on the substance of his remarks and that's gotta be right. Anne, have you gone woke? Me, you woke. No, I'm not remotely woke. Why do you think you're offering a hint of hesitation about the word colonization. Now I've just spoken to a young woman, an entrepreneur, called uh Lubner

uh Zaidi, who's the parents of foreign immigrants, and she said Britain has been colonized. She would draw your attention to Parts of East London, parts of the West Midlands, where ninety-five or ninety-eight percent of the population are ethnic. Uh many communities living a parallel existence, ghettoized societies that don't speak the language and sometimes practice their own laws. If that's not colonization, I don't know what is Yeah.

What I'm saying is that, and this is just pure common sense, don't obscure The principal argument which is what what you've just said, you know, that there are parts of the country uh where people do now feel um i i i they're in the minority and they're a bit baffled by what's going on. All that is true. All I'm saying is don't let's get so fixated on the word colonized that we worry about that instead of worrying about the issue.

Most definitely, and it's a bit rich, isn't it, for Sakir Starmer and Andy Burnham to attack Sir Jim Radcliffe for pointing out not just the societal consequences of mass immigration and but the economic consequences too. Oh the economic consequences are and always have been huge.

Um the social consequences are if anything greater because you are trying to accommodate numbers that we simply cannot accommodate. That's why they're in hotels, that's why they're now talking about taking cancel houses. Uh when you know there are already huge demands for those. Uh so the social problems are are enormous as well. Uh and

Yeah, Keir Starmer said he was going to stop the boats. Well, you know, record numbers are coming in, and they're arriving almost daily, and what most of the public feel is that they're helpless. With all of this, they're hopeless that no government is getting a grip of this. Well reform will. And it's interesting regarding Sir Jim Radcliffe Anne because he's been attacked.

for being a billionaire tax exile. Well, I think it's all the more impressive given the fact that he as a rich man is insulated from the consequences. of Britain's failed open border experiment, he's demonstrated that given he hasn't got skin in the game, he's quite the patriot. He doesn't he doesn't need to create this drama, but he's done it for the right reasons.

Uh I well, I think that's absolutely right. Um I mean he is right to uh to talk about it. And if as you rightly say, um he himself is not going to be adversely affected by it in any way. Um, I mean he's not gonna live next to a hotel, uh which is full of of vibrants. Um, he's not gonna pay the enormous bills that the rest of us are paying. Um I Well bless you, Anne. Bless you. Take your time. No, it's okay. It's just the end of a winter cough. Um It's going round.

Uh going round. Yeah. Um Stop distracting me about my path and let me speak about the more important Well you were you were getting you were getting on to a very good point, which is that I think that Jim Radcliffe has demonstrated he's a pa he's a patriot. He's got nothing to gain from from his outspoken remarks other than a love of his country, Anne.

Well I think that's right. Um i you know, he has no personal uh reason to uh resent the levels of immigration. He's resenting it uh on the part of Britain and and that is right. And as I say, you know, both major parties are now talking, uh paying lip service to controlling immigration. None of them have got the sort of plans that reform have got. Uh and this is gonna go on.

I mean this is the real thing to understand, Mark. This is gonna go on for another three years. Well indeed, and the issue is that we've got a culture now, Anne, where people are punished And told to apologise for speaking the truth. That appears to be Sir Jim's great crime.

Well, I mean absolutely, but we've had that um that attitude in this country for a very, very long time. There was a time when you could hardly even mention the word immigration without being accused of being right wing and fascist and everything else. Um and it was so in the Blair years in Parliament. You know, if you mentioned immigration, well uh you were um uh you were demonstrating that you had no feelings and that you're an unworthy human being. Yes. At least we are now at the state.

where we can discuss immigration and what is even better is with the underlying assumption that it's gone much too far.

And Anne, let me get on to another topic uh whilst uh whilst I've got you because I think this will uh provoke a reaction on your part. Um Labour last night opened the door to primary school children changing their gender. Long awaited trans guidance for schools finally arrived yesterday, having been

watered down from previous Tory proposals which were robust. What it means, Anne, in plain English, is that little Johnny, aged five, six or seven years of age, can go to school and come out little Joanna. Your reaction. Well, I mean they've tried to say that it should be um very rare they have said it should be very rare for a primary school child.

uh to transition. I would have preferred them to say it simply cannot happen at primary school level. I mean the only real advance in this guidance, and I think it is a a a good advance, is that it now acknowledges the role of parents. I mean before we had a situation where parents would find out sometimes by accident.

that their children were being known by a different name and different pronouns in schools. At least this has said parents must be involved. But this should just not be happening at all at primary school level. It is a nonsense. And as a practising Christian What's your view of so called gender ideology, th th the notion that you're assigned a gender at birth, that there are a hundred genders, that some people are trapped in the wrong body?

First of all, you're not assigned a gender at birth. You're born a a a a girl or a boy. You're actually born with a one sex or the other. uh that can be just changed at will later on. Now there there's a very small number of people and and nobody would deny this who do genuinely suffer from gender dysphoria and sometimes they go through

hugely painful uh medical procedures in order to to to give effect to that. But they are a very, very tiny minority. The overwhelming majority of people, the overwhelming, overwhelming are men or women uh and that is it uh and there is no um choice in the matter. I agree with you and stay with me. Joan has called Talk Breakfast. Good morning, Joan.

Hello. Hello to both of you. Um, I'm absolutely fed up of all this um rubbish that's been uh instilled into our children. It's nothing but child abuse. Th why don't they let children just have a childhood? No the wonder that our teenagers are so stressed with um anxiety and mental health problems. Children I just can't understand why this i policy is being fobbed off onto legal ones. It's just not right.

And as I say, I'm a Christian and I get fed up of it. But what also upsets me is the silence of the church. Anne, your reaction to that, do you think for example the Church of England and other faith leaders should take a stand against so called gender ideology? Well I certainly I think they certainly should. They won't. They won't. Um the Church of England in particular uh is terrified of offending anybody. uh and uh it wants to uh i incorporate absolutely every last ideology into its own

Uh so they won't do that. Um but I think that your caller there uh really uh nailed it when she said, you know, that childhood should be childhood. uh and they shouldn't be burdened uh with these sorts of considerations. I mean, you know, I went through the whole of my primary Uh without hearing anything. Uh about uh uh about sex, about family structures, but anything like that.

I went through my primary education having fun in the playground and learning in the classroom. And that is what it should be about. Well Anne, you are a libertarian as I am myself, and when you're eighteen, good luck to you. If you're gonna change your name from Bob to Bridget, I won't stand in your way. Anne, you wouldn't be a true conservative.

If you took any other view than that, live and let live. The issue we've got is young people who have a lot of crazy ideas. And when I was about seven, I wanted to be a car. Now that didn't play out very well because I'm afraid that I'm not uh very powerful. I've got no talk, I've got no break. and no windscreen. But the bottom line is that, you know, th Joan there invoking the idea of child abuse in relation to this ideology. Is that too strong?

No, I don't think it's too strong. I think when you actually start uh helping uh small children and I mean small children to transition. That is a form of child abuse because every sensible adult knows they cannot possibly be in a position at that stage to take what will be a major life-changing decision. They just cannot be you wouldn't let them take charge, for example, of the family budget.

Uh you would say, no, no, you know, you you simply don't have the experience. You wouldn't let them decide what is dangerous and what is not, uh, when they're playing. Uh you wouldn't let them uh decide uh entirely what they could eat or what they could not. Uh but for some reason we're actually saying to small children, oh, you can decide to change something as fundamental as whether you're a girl or a boy.

And it it it is yeah, child abuse is fine. Yeah, I'll I'll buy that. Uh Joan, uh last word on this, your final thoughts? Well, as I say, I I just can't understand these politicians. Why are they pushing all of this agenda? I it's just absolutely ridiculous and as for giving puberty uh blockers to children as younger as it It it's it's horrendous, it really is. Why do you think they are pushing this ideology, Joan?

I d I just don't know. I I the I don't know whether the walk lobby is so strong now that these politicians are so weak they're terrified of them. But this has got to stop.

Joan, I completely agree with you. Um, Anne, this is very unChristian, this ideology. I would argue it's against Western values as well. What do you think motivates this movement? And I take on board absolutely what you said, that there are people, Anne, who do have gender dysphoria and there are examples throughout history of people

m men that have dressed up as women and felt they were female and we, you know, are very understanding towards those folk. But what is behind this seeming ideological drive, Anne, to basically dismantle the idea of two sexes? Well, I think that very often behind these big drives, what you've actually got is a desire to undermine society as we know.

Now, you know, Theresa May actually said in terms when the trans issue first started raising its head in this country, uh, she actually said, Oh, this is the most important thing. This was at a time when we were still, you know, trying to get Brexit. Uh and people jump on the bandwagon and they want to be seen as modern, as inclusive, as tolerant and they don't actually pause to think

what this can mean in the longer term. Nobody paused to think that you could actually end up with a man in a woman's prison. I mean, it is such an unlikely scenario that people would have said, oh rubbish, that won't happen. But of course, if you take that ideology forward, that is exactly what happens.

And common sense as always, we love having you on the show. Have an excellent Friday and we will speak soon, my thanks, to the fearless former government minister, broadcaster and reform UK supporter Anne Whiticum. Why choose a sleep number smartbed? Can I make my sight softer? Can I make my sight? Can we sleep cool? Sleep number does that.

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Donald Trump has been given the go-ahead to sue the BBC for defamation and he's looking for ten billion dollars. Let's get reaction from Robin Aitkin, who's the author of the best-selling book Can We Trust the BBC? Good morning, Robin. Morning to you, Mark. How do you see this playing out for the corporation? Well that's the problem really. Who can see how it's gonna play out?

The problem is, as I see it, that the corporation is now entangled in the American legal system. And really, the outcome of these various um lawsuits is really unpredictable. And the problem there is that you might be talking about a hell of a lot of money, which the BBC is gonna have to spend one way or the other. And that

regardless of whether actually there are damages paid to Mr Trump, you know, American lawyers don't come cheap. Um and I've seen I've seen estimates that, you know, this could be upwards of eighty million dollars. That's uh a hell of a lot of um licence fee, money going down the drain in pursuit of the BBC trying to rescue its reputation. In this instance. Do you think that the BBC could have handled this differently and mollified the president?

in the aftermath of these revelations about the doctored clip on panorama, do you think they should have love bombed the president to avoid this happening? Yeah, no you're absolutely right, Mark. I mean the point is Uh you know, we've all watched Donald Trump, haven't we, from afar? We know what he's like. We do. And he's a thin skinned man, you know, and I I have actually um a lot of uh regard for Trump. I think he's done many good things.

But um you'd have to say he's not someone who can uh who easily takes um a slight and he holds a grudge. I think the BBC would have been well advised when this uh thing first came to light. To, as you say, have love bombed the president. They should have grovelled, really, a fulsome apology, um, making it plain that they regretted what had happened.

Um, and maybe offering some sort of token damages, I don't know, something, you know, not too token, but maybe half a million dollars or something to a charity, something like that. That might have bought Trump off, but now as it stands, the BBC I have no way of knowing, you have no way of knowing, the BBC has no way of knowing how this is going to play out. And as I say, that could be very costly indeed.

Unfortunate headlines for the National State Broadcaster to be in a legal battle with the leader of the free world. Clearly that edited clip was a huge oversight, a terrible mistake. And an example arguably of political bias. That said, is Trump's legal action a war on the free press? No, I I don't think so, actually. I mean I I look Yes, a free press is is important. And the BBC of course is an important part of uh our media landscape and um

uh would be worse off in my view without the BBC being there altogether. However, what I would say is this Mark that I'm a assiduous um uh uh consumer of BBC News because actually I've made it my job really to be a a critic of the BBC because I used to work for the BBC. I know how the organization works.

Now, ever since Trump came on the scene, which was back in twenty sixteen, the BBC has shown nothing but negativity towards him. Every report I've ever heard on the BBC about Trump has been accentuating the negative. There has been no fair reporting of Trump ever since he arrived on the scene, and that is because He stands for everything that the BBC hates.

And so this lawsuit is the culmination, I think, of I think that Whether Trump has been a close observer of BBC output or not, I don't know, but I'm certain that those around him, many of his coterie of advisers and so on, will know the BBC is very biased against Trump. And this lawsuit is maybe a way of settling that score. And I think the BBC had this coming. I mean the fact is, I don't think anyone can, with a straight face, argue that the BBC has been fair to Trump. It simply has not.

And I mean and and this is true actually of many other issues, big issues, which the BBC uh has over decades been you know quite shamefully biased. And I think, you know, maybe the chickens are coming home to roost on this. I don't think, by the way, that this you know, the the The the lawsuit that Trump is is uh has launched is asking for ten billion dollars damages. Now I think that's a bit performance.

I don't think that you know, even in the i e even in the in in the casinos of American courts, I doubt whether the BBC is gonna be landed with a ten billion dollar cost. I think Absurd. But it's perfectly possible that you know this thing goes through all its legal stages and the BBC maybe at the end has to maybe it's exonerating.

I somehow doubt that. But you know, even at the end maybe there's there's notional damages, but even in that case, the BBC is likely to have spent tens of millions of dollars on trying to protect its reputation when it would have been better, in my view, from the outset, to have fair start. Robin, a delight to have you on the show. Thank you for your valuable time. Robin Aitkin is the author of Can We Trust the BBC, a former senior figure working in the BBC as well. Thank you to Robin Aitken.

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