Train Horror

Did I talk too much? Why can't I just let it go? It was stinking so much. Take a breath. You're not alone. Counseling helps you sort through the noise with qualified professionals. Get matched with a therapist online based on your unique needs and get help with everyday struggles like anxiety or managing tough emotions. Visit betterhelp.com slash random podcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy and let life feel.

If you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zinn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Zinn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus, Zinn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zinn.

Check out zinn.com slash find to find Zinn at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. The home of common sense.

I'm delighted, I have to say. Day one. The best paper reviewer for a Monday. Is that good? Poppy Cobone, good morning. Good morning. We're alright, aren't we for an early morning start? I think so, I feel bright and early. Nice, good. Let's start with this horrific story. I mean, I don't know what you're supposed to say. There's a couple of things that I want to say, but this guy gets on the train. Stabs 11 people willy-nilly. Eventually is tasered by the cops as he yells, kill me.

One of the bravest people was in fact a worker for LNER who is fighting for his life. I just want to play a clip to everybody. This is Ollie Foster who was a passenger on this train. This is what he saw. Have a listen.

I was in Coach H. I was just listening to Audible on my phone. And then I had guys suddenly run past going, run, run. There's a guy standing literally on everything. There was a few of us kind of looking at each other, like, thinking, oh, was it a joke? Like, it's Halloween, I'll be pranking. But then you could kind of see in their faces they were being serious. I kind of got my stuff and I was running and everyone was really pushing behind us, really panicking.

And at this point, I was kind of asking questions like, what's happening? Like, who is it? And they're like, a guy's just stabbing everyone back there. Put my hand on this chair, like just trying to push myself forward. And then I look at my hand and it's covered in blood. And then I look at the chair and there's blood all over the chair. And I'm thinking, okay, this is pretty serious. To some of the guys that I'd run through to kind of alert to run.

They're the ones who are also being stabbed. So we're running over and getting to the edge of the carriage, still trying to work out who is it, what's their intentions, what's their motives. Terrifying.

It's like something out of a horror movie. It is. Yeah, I just think, you know, you say it's a normal train, but you're completely right. Like, sometimes with these attacks, you just place yourself there, you can't help it. Like, that's so normal, just getting a train.

you know, on the weekend, just travelling down to London. How many people do that on a regular basis every week? I just... We were talking last night about it, my wife and I, and you end up thinking, what is safe? So last night, just a very personal story, my son... who's at golf college, goes back to London. He wants to go. He goes on the six o'clock train, right? And he texts me at seven o'clock and a drunk guy is going up and down the platform. It's a dark...

Autumn night. And he's on his own in the train. I said, listen, if you're terrified, get off. On the basis of what happened the night before. Fear's the thing, isn't it? Real fear. It's completely the fear. I think I've said to you before, when I've just travelled on the cheese...

you get this feeling when someone gets on and you immediately know something's wrong. You can immediately tell. It's like the hairs in the back of your neck go up. The thing I find so frightening about this is that you know that no one's going to help you. People can't help you. You're literally stuck on this.

Until those doors open, you are completely on your way. I read something about the driver. The driver continued to the next station and people initially criticised him and went, hold on a second, why did you not stop? And his answer, which is actually correct, is if I stopped...

middle of nowhere the police couldn't have got there again respect to the to the services the emergency services but actually we've got on it this is this is another clip i'd like to play superintendent john loveless he's from the british transport police have a listen to this my friends Ten people were taken to hospital by ambulance and another person self-presented later that evening. While nine were initially believed to have life-threatening injuries, following assessment and treatment, four

thankful to say, being discharged. However, two patients remain in a life-threatening condition. British Transport Police declared a major incident yesterday in counter-terrorism policing. were initially supporting our investigation. However, at this stage, there is nothing to suggest that this is a terrorist incident. Now, the thing about these sorts of stories is, you know, when you do a job like this, you have to try and...

talk about other things. And there were two things that I took from this story over the weekend. And if you are listening this morning, let's get your theories. Let's get your thoughts on this. 87222. Start your message with the word talk. We'd love to hear from you. How has this affected you? Have you got a story? You can relate to that with... Also, as ever, Voice Notes calls 03444991000. Do that now. For me, two things. The first was, why isn't it terrorism?

How is it? What's the difference? Somebody running amok on a train with a knife potentially killing tens of people. Why is that not terrorism? But also equally, I'd love your take on this, people.

Why did the government feel it necessary to say... The two suspects which they announced initially were a 32-year-old black man and a 35-year-old man of Caribbean descent. I think I know why. I think it's because most people, I'm afraid, would have assumed that it might have been a terrorist attack, an Islamic...

terrorist attack on the basis of everything and the government were doing what was best to quell. Thoughts on that? I completely agree with you. I mean, this is an attack, unfortunately, that is not unrecognised by people in Europe, right? These mass stabbing attacks, particularly when it seemed like it was two people.

that makes you in your mind go this must have been pre-planned two people don't snap at the same time well now we know it's one person with some of those eyewitness reports coming out it does seem to suggest perhaps there's a mental illness angle but as you say

I mean, people are being terrorised. Surely if the aim of these attacks, even if the person isn't in their right mind, is you now can't get on a train anymore, sit there with your headphones or read your newspaper and just drift off. You're going to be looking over your shoulder. I don't know about you, but there's...

hardly any public places now that I'm not doing that, when I'm not, like, slightly on edge, you know, when I walk down the street, when I'm going into a shop, when I'm travelling on a train, when I'm travelling on the tube. And it's stuff like this that makes people really angry when the government says there's no evidence.

a terror attack. Because the definition of terrorism, I understand, is a legal definition, is a working definition, fine. But people feel terrorised. They feel that there are people who are not in their right minds, who are loose cannons, walking around, they see them every day.

I don't know about you, but I see these people every day. You look at them and behind their eyes, there's nothing there. And you're like, why are you walking around the street? Which I think opens up a whole debate about social care and the system in this country. But I just...

The other thing which perhaps sounds stupid to ask you, right, is because, you know, I'm 60, right? So nowadays social media is really an outlet that most people seem to get their news from and stuff is so much quicker than it ever was in the past. What happened on that train? Did that happen 20 years ago? Is that fuelled by social media? Is it fuelled because of what people see? Is it copycat? Why do we have more of this now than before?

Or did we not just hear about it before? I don't know. I think this is new. Yeah, I was talking to my dad about this because we were both complaining. It's a bit like this show. Well, people say like, you know, crime. Crime is lower than it's ever been. It's so safe now in the UK. Everyone's like... Sorry, crimes like this...

where people are going on frenzies, you know, just random people snapping at once and going around with a massive machete and stabbing people. That is not normal. Now, maybe robbery is down. Fine. Shoplifting is certainly up. These crimes are certainly up. These stranger attacks are certainly up. And those are the things that keep people up at night, because that is random. How do you change your behaviour? As John Healy said, be vigilant. How do you be vigilant on a train?

It really brought it home on me with Henry last night. I was at home thinking, jeez, what am I supposed to do? Quick, I'll drive to Southampton or whatever. 16 and a half, never had a problem, just sat there. What if that guy had been a nutter? Richard's right. He says it's clearly... Clearly terror-related, Jess. I mean, what else do you call a man waving a knife and attacking people willy-nilly? That's terror.

That is terror, isn't it? Yeah. Well, it's also, what does terrorism do? It makes you afraid to engage in normal patterns of life. And this is exactly what these attacks do. It basically tells you the public space isn't for you.

What will also happen, I mean, the front page of the Mail, the devil's not going to win. What Knifeman told terrified passengers as he stabbed 11 in train rampage, the vicious attacker told one passenger the devil is not going to win. So all the papers will try and work out who the devil is. then we'll hear in the coming days that this guy presumably sorry to appear cynical peeps was actually known to whatever the mental health authorities somewhere or

counter-terror. Morning, Joes. This is Mark. If it's not terror, what is it? A racist attack? Will it be mental health? That newfound excuse people use. This was clearly planned. A lone wolf-style attack. I'm on a train now. This is interesting. Marks and Crohn's on a train right now. He says, I'm sitting here thinking, what if that happened now? And I'm listening to you. Yeah. Oh, exactly. You know, this reminds me of Valde Calacane.

Not in the tax, right? Same thing. A man who was known to authorities, well in advance, multiple opportunities to stop this and go, again, we don't know who's, you know, well, we do know who's... potentially done it or we've got a suspect in custody we don't know the motive for it but it's the same old story every time so of course you're going to start extrapolating what you can get from this

They are known to authorities, multiple attempts for the people to stop, whether it be the police or the NHS, and yet the attack is allowed to carry out. People have their lives ruined. Bill and Rumsey, morning, JK and Poppy. After the knife attack on the train, I think the UK is broken. I think this is another...

My question was, will Starmer and Maya Khan do anything about it? And finally, if you were on that train now, would you be in the terror of your life? Absolutely. Of course you would. You'd be sitting there thinking, jeez. I don't know. I mean, what's Shabana Mahmood? It wasn't the most inspiring response, was it? I want my I want my government to come out.

Fighting's the wrong word, but come out and say, we're going to make you safe. And by the way, I don't lay this at the Labour Party. I lay this entirely at the door, initially, of Theresa May. It's an absolute disgrace. I wanted Shibana Mahmood to say. I wish my eyes would work. I'm deeply saddened to hear about the stabbings.

huntington my thoughts go out to all those affected two suspects have been immediately arrested i am receiving regular updates i urge people to avoid comments and speculation no i don't want that i want her to say i'm completely with you i want her out of wherever she is. I want her in Huntingdon at midnight with sirens and lights saying I am here and I'm going to protect you because I am the Home Secretary. Is that outrageous?

Normalised. This used to be something that was on a front page of news for a month. I can promise you by the end of the week, people are completely forgotten about it because this stuff is now normalised. We just accept it as another normal part of life. This is not normal. You know, I used to look at America and I used to think, you know... those terrible shootings in schools and we'd have those debates on the shows about knife crime.

weapons in America and how fundamentally it was wrong. You're absolutely right. Those terrorists, all those sorts of things in America, they go for a week and a month and then it happens again. It's starting to be like that in the United Kingdom.

It's undoubtedly... Good morning to Jules in London. Morning, J.K. and Poppy. There's a certain culture in our country that think carrying and using a knife is OK. 61% of knife crime is in London. Let's take that point. This was in Huntington. We accept it. It was probably... a lone wolf attacker. But think about Khan and London. He talks about, you know, equality and diversity and educating this and we mustn't have that and we mischarge for this and all that.

And yet knife crime is the absolute bane of the lives of so many people in London. And I still don't understand why your mayor wouldn't go, do you know what, I'm going to make sure...

that we stop and search anybody and everybody and not apologise for it. And there's going to be a statutory penalty if you get caught with a knife and you're going to go to prison and you're going to serve the time. But this is the problem. Everyone else has to pay for the consequences of this stuff. So I can promise you they're going to bring in some stupid...

law that means you have to get your bags searched at a train station like you do in an airport it won't stop the people that actually carry knives because they won't be stopped and searched they'll push past the barrier as they always do and they'll continue to carry out these attacks but your life and my life will get worse and this is

the way that the authorities always respond to crimes like this. This is what people like Sadiq Khan want to do. They'll put up posters on the tube saying don't stare, don't harass people but they won't actually have anyone in the British Transport Police doing anything about it. Let's just take that because you are so...

I've stood there. I've stood there on the Tube in London, and I don't go on it very often, right? And it will say, you know, treat people fairly, and well done to David, who's got whatever... Wrong with David, but he's our employee of the month because he came to work for three days. And once somebody said to him, you're a nasty man, your job's not very exciting. And he got upset, but he's fought back from anxiety. But whilst that's going on, people are being knived in the streets.

Quality of the undergrounds, the trains, the graffiti, the begging. It's like New York in the 70s. It is. It's so...

Actually, this is interesting. Nicky is in Huntingdon. Good morning, Jez and Poppy. Regarding the train stabbing, I'm an ex-RUC officer from Belfast. I moved to England in 1990 because I was sick of terrorism and I didn't want to raise my kids in that atmosphere. Here I am, 30-plus years later, with the same feelings and terrified for my children and granddaughter. I feel so helpless this morning.

Disgusting. I just don't think that we should have to live like this. I hate that this is being normalized. What's the answer? What's the answer? The answer is to actually arrest people, put them in jail for a long time. I once interviewed Sadiq Khan, weirdly, not on this station, and I went for him about knife crime. And he said to me, but it's racist, stop and search.

And I pointed out that the majority of knives that are carried in London are carried by young black men. That's not a fact. And stabbings as well. No, it's racist. I said, but whether a person is white, Caucasian, I'm not bothered about that. Surely you should be saying, if you're carrying a knife, whether or not you're carrying it because you're fearing that your gang isn't as whatever, if you eradicate that by saying...

I don't care who you are or where you come from, the punishment is going to be so great, you're going to think twice. It doesn't do that there.

This never comes out of the blue. It's always the fact that the authorities have dealt with these people multiple times, multiple occasions. They would have had interactions with police, with social workers, with the NHS. They may have been detained under a mental health act.

If these people... I mean, this is a Labour government thing, by the way. They want to bring down detentions for extreme mental health conditions because they think there's racial disparities in them and they think it's racist. Sorry, sorry, can we just... Sorry, sorry, sorry. Seriously. Calm, Jess. Say that again. Say they actually want to...

down the number of people who have been detained under the mental health act because there are racial disparities and they think it means that it's racist because how can it be racist if you're mad well i mean exactly exactly sorry sorry sorry so so is so if mark who is caucasian through there

has a fit and we section him, which could happen, that's racist, is it? No, I mean, it would be only racist if it was someone who was a redefinite... But we'll have a sweeping generalisation about the whole thing. Of course. I live in a parallel universe. Do you not think that, increasingly, about this country?

No, I mean, it's dangerous. This will actually lead to not only the people themselves who are having mental health episodes, maybe harming themselves, but innocent bystanders. If someone does have a psychotic episode, what are we just going to have to pay the consequences of that? But you wouldn't get involved, would you, in this country? I used to laugh at...

I used to get really angry when I'd be driving down the motorway or walking past something and people would just stare and do nothing. But if you do something nowadays in the United Kingdom, you're either likely to be stabbed or prosecuted for daring to stick up for what's right. Rachel says...

Jez, Pops, I use trains regularly, but since the weekend, and I know this might sound silly, but I just don't feel like I want to use public transport at the moment. I don't feel safe. Chris is in Chester. Morning, pal. He says, yet again, another terrorist attack and the usual response. Thoughts?

and prayers and they will not divide us and then nothing bloody changes. The definition of madness is repeating the same thing and expecting different results. It's absolutely true, isn't it? Steve's in Cambridge. Definitely a sad story for our news this week, and this is terrorism without a doubt. Many innocent people were terrorised. What else can it be? But on the bright side, Sir Stephen Cambridge, Poppy's on the show and she'd brighten my morning any morning.

He needs to get out more. Hello to Chris. This is typical of the police and the government. This was a terrorist attack. Innocent people have had their lives ruined because of some sick ideology. Britain was never like this 20 years ago. Was it sick ideology? Just somebody who's mad? I don't know. That's the other thing, by the way. Thinking about this coming in this morning. Yeah, that's a good point.

Wesley says, well, isn't this domestic terrorism? I think we're too scared to call it out. I think we'd... Ooh, he's mad. Well, he is mad, isn't he? And he should be sectioned. There shouldn't be excuses. That's not normal behaviour. You know, there's judges that go, well, he had a bad...

I don't care. He had a machete. He shouldn't be at liberty. I know plenty of people that had a tough upbringing. They don't walk around with a massive zombie knife. What a ridiculous way to view a society. If people commit crimes, if people are completely out of control and could commit a crime like that...

They should be detained. Can we just shout out? Shout out sounds wrong. There was a railman. Am I allowed to say railman? A rail person? A hero railman who's literally saved tens of lives by putting himself in the way. And he's fighting. And do you know what? In this sea of madness that we call this country right now, there are an enormous number of people.

who do a really good job and get very little credit, and that guy's lying in a hospital bed fighting for his life. Why should frontline workers have to be the people that... pay the brunt for this stuff. Seriously, they have to walk around and stab-proof fester because the government can't get a handle on these people? Nick in Loughborough. Contentious, but you might agree with it. 03444991000, text 287222. I made the point earlier. Why did the government...

feel the need to release the ethnicity of the attacker. He says, until the cultural persuasion of the knifeman is known, not his nationality, Jez, we will assume, many will, that we're being gaslit by government. terrified of upsetting a growing religious minority. Well, the trust is just gone. That's why they have to do it. I mean, the local MP, Benabish Chukty, actually said, look...

and don't necessarily feel 100% comfortable with it, but what's the alternative? Because there's no trust anymore. There's no trust. People feel like it's going to get covered up. We're going to have to end up being like the US, where you immediately release a profile of the suspect.

I don't see any alternative, frankly, because I don't trust the government. I can never remember his name. Sorry. What was the Southport? Southport, actually, Rudabakana. Rudabakana. I mean, he was from Cardiff, wasn't he? He was the West Bible. And I... I remember distinctly at the time thinking to myself that the government, and this isn't conspiratorial, they knew he wasn't a Muslim extremist and they knew that that was being fuelled on social media.

And yet they didn't come out as they did yesterday, whether that's gaslighting or not. And it built and it built and it built and it built. There were riots and then Starmer could send his militia onto the streets, get them arrested, detained and jailed within 24 hours, despite the fact we didn't have any of that.

And he was able to then say everybody was right wing. Maybe I'm being fair to the government or unfair. Is it... Are they doing that to give us information? But you don't feel like you're getting the whole lot. You're absolutely right. You need a photo, don't you? Because people... What he just said in Loughborough, people will think...

Well, it's mostly the problem is you can't then have a legitimate conversation about these problems of our country anymore. You can't. If you want to make multiculturalism work, you have to be able to criticise aspects of certain cultures, particularly if certain cultures have a high propensity for terrorism.

or something. It's completely reasonable and rational to do that. If we were a grown-up country, we'd be able to do that and do it in a way that's sensible and doesn't cross the line. But no-one feels that you can do that anymore. There's no trust in the government whatsoever. And you do feel you can't say stuff.

response. James in Plymouth. Morning, JK. I feel this is the result of a depleted police force, not a service, and not there being no deterrent, as per politicians all talk of no trousers. Go back to what I said about Theresa May. You know, policemen and women on the streets, on trains.

on train platforms, gaining intel. Intel leads to, as Blexley will always say to me, will lead to arrest. This doesn't lead to arrest. Sean, in Gloucester, before we get a break, another tragic attack. How many more will we have to suffer because the powers that be actually...

don't do anything. Sadly, Stalin and his cronies are too weak and stupid to admit their ideology has created this environment where lawlessness abounds. I fear a massive backlash is on the way, not that I would advocate it, Sean in Gloucester. I completely agree with you. You can feel it. People are so angry in the way they have been for a very, very long time. Because all of this stuff is preventable.

all of this stuff is preventable. It's the reasonable outcome of an ideology that's allowed this to happen. Really interesting. 6.23. Not that you give a damn. If you are waking up, you've made it taught the home of free speech and common sense, but most of all, the chance for you to get involved. Horrific story leading... Today, of course, the devil on the 1825. Eleven passengers knifed by this vigilante, it seems as we know, attacker yesterday in Huntingdon. Police have got one man.

They describe him as a 32-year-old black man in custody. Lots and lots of you responding. Is this the norm? How do you prevent it? Was it not a terrorist attack, surely? And why did the government feel it necessary to release the ethnicity of the attacker? Is that because we'd all jumped to what?

We say a very good morning to a man who I'm sure likes the toffee apple, Richard Tice, deputy leader of Reform UK. Hello, dear boy. How are you? Very well. Good morning. You're a bit Scrooge-like this morning, Jeremy. It seems to me a sort of... The anti-fun police, although I will confess that my dear mother, my late mother, she started Christmas on December the 23rd.

And it lasted about four days and that was it. Come on. I mean, I know reform's a serious thing, but yeah, we see that. No, but November the 1st, do you want to be listening to Christmas songs? No. Right. So you're a bloody Scrooge as well. What about... I think I'm...

I'm a moderate. I'm a halfway house as opposed to a totally scrooge like you sound. Oh, right, OK. Well, I don't believe in centrist policies. I believe in getting out there and telling people what they think. What about fireworks? Well, I mean, they're great fun, but everything in moderation. Yeah, I see.

But it does feel to me as though it sort of goes on and on and on. So basically what I've done with you in 30 seconds is tie you in complete knots and you completely agree with me on both things. No, I've just confirmed that we've got to have some fun as well. Of course we are. I'm concerned about the lack of entertainment in your own personal house.

mate try having six kids you saw me on Thursday night that was a night out for me Richard the reason I wanted to talk to you in great detail this morning

I mean, you've been outraged at a story over the weekend. You've demanded an investigation after teachers at a group of leading state schools made inappropriate and slanderous comparisons between the Reform Party and the Nazi Party. Tell us more.

Well, there was nothing fun in what's going on in many of these state schools. And a parent contacted us to say, are you aware that a PowerPoint slide is being used, in fact, two PowerPoints, by... uh teachers teaching politics to a-level students where i'm shown as a political extremist and reform is aligned with the bmp and the nazis

And truly, truly disgraceful. The whole point of teaching is you should be neutral. You should teach children to learn how to think and to give them a range of the different sort of spectrum. And this is just completely, frankly, it's slanderous against me. Personally, I've written to the chief exec of this academy chain. He clearly knew nothing about it and has launched an investigation. But I'm pretty appalled, actually. And there was no mention in this.

This document of the left wing violence from the likes of the mask thugs, the Antifa bunch. No mention at all. Surprise, surprise. And yeah, this was just wholly, wholly unacceptable. Unless I get proper answers, I should be referring this matter to the Charity Commission because I'm concerned this Academy Trust is in breach of its charitable, neutral.

non-political biased objectives. It's really interesting. I've got a couple of examples. My daughter's at Edinburgh University. I think you know that. And she told me some months ago. and her politics would be slightly different because she's 22, but she'd been in a lecture and the guy literally had said, you know...

Britain is responsible for every world war, our army are aggressors, etc, etc. I went to a speech day last summer at a school I won't mention, Lord Wandsworth College in Hook, and I will mention it because it wound me up that much, and they paid some man from the BBC whose name... I can never remember, to do a speech. And the first few minutes was actually quite funny, Richard, and then he launched into how, let me tell you...

boys and girls, that your parents have let you down by voting to leave the European Union. Your parents have let you down by not explaining that we need more illegal migrants. And he took aim at reform as well. And I remember sitting there thinking... This is ludicrous, right? And leaving, I think the deputy headmaster said, was that good? I said, no, it was rubbish. And I said...

Education shouldn't be one way. You made the point. I'm all for both sides of the argument, but we have many examples now, and this is the latest, where actually they're being indoctrinated with this ideology, aren't they? They completely are. And we've known for a long time that the academic community is hijacked by those on the left and sometimes the hard left. And this is the concrete evidence.

And it's pretty shocking, frankly. It really is. And so the question then is, well, where else is this sort of completely inappropriate materials being used? And you just think that... Why on earth would this educational trust be a charity when it's clearly allowing its teachers to be proposing deeply... one-sided political narrative. It's really interesting. I was watching Nigel Farage ask a question in the Commons the other day and watching the derision and almost the, I don't know, just...

The childishness, you can see it in the people's faces. I know you lot jest about it and say the five of you are all in it together. But what hope have we got when you look at a younger generation, when we look at education, when we see these MPs who are so blatantly... I don't know the best way to describe this without sounding biased.

blatantly unaware of how well reform is doing and poo-poo the five of you when millions of people in this country are saying, hold on a minute, we want some change here. We've had years and years of this and you get a feeling that all these academics and all these MPs...

and a hell of a lot of people are going to end up with egg on their face very soon. Oh, I think they are, because never underestimate the common sense of so many people and so many young people actually coming up to us and saying they support us. And I think that don't be surprised if the Labour Party quietly drops its pledge to reduce the voting age to 16 when they realise that that might mean that we get more votes than they do, given how badly they're doing.

All of this is an evolving process, but it's fundamentally teachers are there to be neutral on politics, teach the spectrum. Teach the different sort of approaches to whether you're right of centre, whether you're left of centre, the different economic strategies you might have. That's all great. But when you when you look so heavily one sided. and describe others from the other side in a way that is not only frankly inaccurate, but is legally libelous and slanderous, then they better watch out.

It's really interesting as well, because a lot of people will say about reform, oh, you know, the five of you jump on the bandwagon about things to garner support. And again, I could answer it for you. That, as a parent with kids at schools and universities, really concerned.

The two examples I've given have happened to me. So I think it's absolutely a baton that you should pick up and run with, and I wish you luck with that. Can I ask you, Richard, your response this morning to, I mean, this horrific story over the weekend, Front of the Sun. Devil on the 1825. Just a fiend, knifing 11 passengers. We must speak about the hero Railman who saved tens of lives, who's fighting for his life.

Extraordinary, horrible, heinous. We get into a debate about knife crime and just listen to this voice note if you can. This is Sean. Sean, good morning. Morning, Jeremy. Sean from Grimm's Beer.

i think now is the time that uh the great british public are allowed to uh arm themselves now there's that many psychopaths with knives running around perverts and all sorts then we have to do something we just can't sit there and wait for this stuff to happen to us i mean i'm all for legalizing firearms i know it's not going to be a popular decision but we're going to be able to do something apart from just sit there and just wait to die

It's really interesting, Richard, because Sean, I don't agree with him in that instance, but I will say one thing that I've picked up in the last hour and a half is a real fear. I told the story of my son last night going back to London's 6.30 train. He rang me after 20 minutes. A drunken man in his 20s was having a go at him, and I said, get off the train. There will be people today, tonight, tomorrow, and for the next few weeks who will be sat on trains.

looking over their shoulder. And it's an absolute disgrace that we've got to this point, isn't it? Yeah, I don't agree with Sean either. But there is a fear and we must pay tribute to the heroism, which we actually... hear about so often of just decent ordinary British folk and the stories we're hearing of the LNER

person who is, we believe, in a life-threatening condition, who clearly saved lives. Truly, truly remarkable. The fast decisions of the driver and we pay tribute to them and hope that...

that everyone survives, of course. With regard to knife crime, we know that stop and search works. The evidence is crystal clear. Once again, the lefties are trying to deny it, but it's all there. And... It's just utterly inexplicable that some people will try and continue to deny that. And we need more of that, frankly. And we need to give...

are police who must be more visible. They must be policing the streets and public places more often as opposed to sitting behind desks or sitting in cars and policing tweets and the like. And we keep saying it, but it needs to happen. Can I also ask you? Stop and search is a critical part of keeping people safe. And there should be a lot more of it. And you can provide the appropriate protections because all police officers now wear body cams. It's all recorded.

I just wanted to ask you a couple of things that I took from it over the weekend. These are just my opinions. Horrendous, absolutely. Policemen and women on the streets, intel, just exposure. For me... Stop and search, absolutely. You get a crime, a knife crime, massive sentence, and you serve it. I don't understand all this let out 30%.

Why is it not labelled terrorism? It is terrorism, first question. Second question, the government released the ethnicity of the person in custody and said he was a black 32-year-old man. I would respectfully suggest that's because they feared that the same swell on social media that happened around the Southport killings could have started again, but I'm not sure they've given us as much information as we quite rightly need. What would you say to those two points?

Well, we must never stop learning lessons where mistakes are made. And a mistake was made after Southport by not providing the information. It was actually the government's own terrorism czar that recommended.

that more information in serious incidents should be put out as soon as possible to the general public in order to curb misinformation and speculation. I think that's what the police... have done here quite rightly i actually called for it in a question to the prime minister many many months ago after the southport incident so look they've done the right thing yeah they're

There's a legal definition of terrorism and the police have to make a judgment as to whether or not it meets that threshold. They're obviously thinking about it very hard. It initially appeared that they had declared it a terrorist incident. I think that turned out to be...

incorrect information. But what is the definition of a terrorist? What's a terrorist group, is it? It's a politically motivating group. It's actually to do with, I haven't got it directly in front of me, but it's to do with whether or not violence... violence has been perpetrated based on an ideological political or racial ideology there is there is a specific terminology around it which is what Can I say something that somebody said earlier without getting into trouble?

And it shouldn't be about colour, actually. To me, it's not about colour. It's about a society that seemingly these things happen more and more and they become the norm. And I was saying earlier, Richard, that I used to look at... you know, the United States, the shootings in the schools, and you go, oh, my God, and they became sort of not weekly, biweekly, whatever.

I'd hate for this to become the norm, but in a week or two, something else will have happened. And I just... Oh, hold on a second. A definition of terrorist, the use or threat, must also be for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause. So you're absolutely right. I just...

I just think the most people that have responded today have come up with one thing, and that's fear. And it does say not a lot for this country that there are people. The reality is for too many people now, particularly young people...

In our towns and cities, they are carrying knives. And mercifully, we don't have guns like they do in America, but knife crime is an epidemic in the UK. There has to be a proper deterrent. Anybody caught carrying a knife... What's your deterrent? What's reform's deterrent? Well, the deterrent is that anybody caught carrying a knife should be taken off the streets. There has to be a custodial sentence.

even for first use. And actually there's plenty of space in the prisons if you deport the 10,000 plus foreign criminals clogging up our prisons. Deport a lot of them and then you've got 10,000 places. While we're at it, I've given you a whole slither, but I've been away, as you know, for 10 days.

You know that piece of scum that sexually attacked that woman and then escaped from prison and was... I just want to throw this out there. And then was finally deported when he was caught, the bloke that was released from prison last week. How were we able to deport him within 18 hours with 500 quid in his pocket because of the public outcry, but we've been hamstrung to deport anybody for bloody months? How did that happen?

Well, it's obvious. It's called political will. And the politicians were embarrassed, and so they made it happen. And the same could happen with thousands of foreign criminals clogging up our jails. It's called the political will. It's called ignoring the hard left socialists in the home office. And if necessary, just staffing up with a different bunch of folk who believe in protecting British citizens, who believe in the cause of...

sovereign borders. And that's what's got to be done. That's not what's being done. We know the Home Office hasn't been fit for purpose now, probably for 20 plus years, Home Secretary after Home Secretary. says the same. The current Home Secretary, Shabana Mahmood, has a serious job ahead of her. Everybody actually wishes her well. It's really, really important that she can do a job.

that people do their job in the Home Office properly and effectively to keep people safe and to deport these criminals. Richard, so good to have you on, my friend. Thank you so much indeed. Richard Tyus, Deputy Leader of Reform, talking all things there, including. There's some breaking news. Just let me get through this, because you could initially listen to this and go, oh, my God. Emergency services have been called to a train derailment.

Shapp in Cumbria. More details to follow throughout the morning here on Talk... The main news story, front of the sun, devil on the 1825. We've talked about this all morning, this loan. madman with a machete who saw fit to stab and seriously injure 11 people. The hero worker on the LNER... train that night is fighting for his life. So many people with so many opinions about this.

The police have released some information. They've said that the man in custody is a 32-year-old black man, which has led to many sort of questions. And, you know, people are talking about knife crime. You might want to talk about that. How do we live in a society where it's so prevalent? Should we not be stronger?

Should we not say if you're found with a knife, you get an instant jail term and you need to serve the time? We ask, why is it not terrorism? The definition, where's my piece of paper? One of the definitions of terrorism is... endangering a person's life other than that of the person committing the action and creating a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public. I would say it's a terrorist attack. And then you ask yourself, why did the police?

Why did they release the ethnicity of the attacker? Is it because of what happened after Southport? 0-3-4-4-4-9-1-000. To put it into context, though, we can talk about all those things. Just the fear factor. I told the story at seven o'clock and six. I make no apology of it. After that news, my son was on the train from the south coast to London last night on his own, 16, with his golf clubs, back to college.

And a drunk approached him and abused him. And he was scared. He was. And he texted me and I said, get off the train. He didn't. He carried on because somebody came to his rescue. But how many people now after this will sit on a train? fearing for their lives this was the passenger one of the passengers whose story just i mean this is extraordinary this is ollie foster have a listen i was in coach h um i was just listening to audible on my phone

And then I had guys suddenly run past going, run, run. There's a guy stabbing literally everyone and everything. There was a few of us kind of looking at each other like thinking, oh, was it a joke? Like it's Halloween, I'll be pranking. But then you could kind of see in their faces they were being serious.

i kind of got my stuff and i was running and everyone was really pushing behind us really panicking and at this point i was kind of asking questions like what's happening like who is it no like a guy's just stabbing everyone back there

put my hand on this chair like just trying to push myself forward and then i look at my hand and it's covered in blood and then i look at the chair and there's blood all over the chair i'm thinking okay this is this is pretty serious to some of the guys that i've run through to kind of alert to run they're the ones who are also being stabbed. So we're running over and getting to the edge of the carriage, still trying to work out who is it, what's their intentions, what's their motives.

That was passenger Ollie Foster. Before we go to Paul Bristow, Mayor of Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, who's kind enough to join us on Morning Glory, I just want to repeat that breaking news before and listen to the whole sentence, because in the context of this story, emergency services...

called to a train derailment near Shapp in Cumbria. Transport Secretary Heidi Alexander has just said a major incident has been declared. There are no reported injuries. They're not two, they're different stories, but important to keep you updated with the breaking news. Emergency service is called.

to a train derailment near Shapp in Cumbria. Let's get back to the horrors, sadly, of Saturday night. So very good morning to Paul Bristow, Mayor of Cambridgeshire and Peterborough. Paul, good morning. Welcome to Morning Glory. Good morning, Jeremy.

Just more than anything, I think, this morning is the sense of fear, the sense of foreboding I've picked up from people when they hear... about such heinous acts that sadly, and I'm not trying to over-egg it, I'm saying they become the norm, but did things like this never happen 20 years ago? What's happened to us?

Well, I think people have got every right to feel concerned and worried. Where the area I represent, Peterborough and Cambridgeshire, it's commutable, isn't it? It's where people get on trains all the time to London and to Peterborough and to Cambridge. And people have got every right to feel worried. I mean, what I will say is that the train was passing through Cambridge. It wasn't scheduled to stop at...

Huntingdon. It only did so because of the fast-thinking driver who managed to divert the train there. A Peterborough man, that driver, someone who I know, a hero like the train guard is now... fighting for his life but it did stop in peterborough and it does look like that the perpetrator was a a peterborough the suspect is a peterborough

man as well but there'll be lots of worried people i understand that peterborough and cambridgeshire is commuter territory and i understand people will be concerned today In terms of the people in your community, I think when something like this happens locally, it sort of exacerbates the problem. it does speak of wider problems, you know, knife crime. Just one thing that we're throwing out there, would you not call it a terrorist attack or do you think that's dangerous?

Well, it's my understanding there's a very specific definition of a terrorist attack. I think it's to do with political and ideological... But it's not. It's endangering a person's life other than that of a person committing the action or creating a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section...

I thought the same issue, but we got out that definition. So I'm not trying to wake it up, but a lot of people are saying, you know, they don't believe perhaps what the government are saying after the Southport things, and we want to try and do this in the right dispassionate way.

I mean, it's just... I mean, it talks about social care, doesn't it? The fact this guy was out. There will always be people, I'm afraid, warped people in our society that need dealing with. But I just... It's just overriding fear really, man.

No, honestly, I can understand that. And I think if this individual turns out to have been known to the authorities and known to the police, then there are also going to be questions to answer as to why he was... on a train on a saturday night and was able to stab people around them what i will say is you know while you can't always prevent against these sort of loan

wolf attacks, especially on an enclosed environment like a train. It's the first time I've ever heard of an incident, I think, on a train like this, or maybe there has been, but it's the first time I can recollect this sort of incident on a train where you can't exactly get off. It's like a...

it's like an aeroplane in that regard isn't it you can't exactly get off but what i would say is quite often when you go to train stations um at night or in the evening like this was you see the gates open don't you all the time and i doubt this individual actually bought a ticket right I mean, I'm speculating, but maybe if we had better security at train stations where gates were consistently closed, where there are access gates.

maybe that would reassure people. I mean, listen, I think those are very wise words. I think you'll always have... There will always be people in our society who will find a way to perpetrate crimes that are... to most of us normal people, completely outrageous. I think the reasons for what's happened can be manifold, but you're absolutely right. Just in terms of your... I loved your words. I mean, the story about the LNER...

worker who's fighting for his life, we're told this morning potentially saved many people from being killed. Real respect to that human being, right?

Right, I mean, honestly, everyday people, this is a guy who just turned up to do his job, like all of us, and lots of people are turning up to do their job today on a Monday morning. He turned up to do his job, and he... to be confronted with that it's just extraordinary.

Everyday people, Jeremy, are capable of extraordinary things. You'll know this. You speak to people all the time on your show. None of us know how we would react in this circumstance. But the other thing I will say as well, local people in Huntington who are at the train station... and perhaps waiting for another service because the train wasn't due to stopping Huntington.

or were just, you know, at the station for one reason or another. They joined in, as I understand it, some of the relief efforts on Saturday night, assisting the emergency services. Everyday people, Jeremy, are capable of extraordinary things. Do you know, I completely agree with that, and I think... I think much as I want those sorts of things eradicated and knowledge, to talk about it is so important because it isn't right that as a society...

knives are so prevalent. I think there are ways to deal with that. But you've also got to cut some part of that Dunkirk spirit, which is we're not going to lie down and be told that this is the way it has to be, that there has to be common sense and strength. Listen, top job and really appreciate...

Appreciate you being on. Paul Bristow, Mayor of Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, thank you very much indeed. On that note, Ellie says, Jez, please tell people to get a grip. Yes, this was awful, but now people are saying I won't travel on the train. I won't go to London. I won't get on the Tube. It's mass hysteria. This is what they want.

Interesting point. They want us to stop living our lives. Don't ask me why or who they are, but that's how I feel. But please tell people that on an average day in London, there are over four million tube journeys. They're more likely to get run over than to get affected by such an attack. We must carry on living our lives. We cannot...

bow down to that. I think that's absolutely quite right. Tony says, something not quite right in my mind about the knife attack on the train. The police said the attack is likely not to be terror-related. In my mind, it's either terror-related or it's not. The police should know by now the suspect's been in custody for 36...

Six hours. Gaz O'Connor. Oh, Gaz O'Connor. Jez, great show. Thanks. I'm in despair, as are many others. I know I use passenger chains quite regularly due to my job. I normally keep a small torch in my work bag. I've just ordered a much bigger one. Things have suddenly, in my mind...

you know, got very, very dangerous. Have we got a voice? Yeah, we've got a voice note. Paul on the knife attack. Go, good morning. Morning, Jezzot. Paul from Sheffield. I've calmed down now. I'm fuming over the weekend. Absolutely seething over the weekend about this stabbing. Look. Why can't we set a petition up and say that the UK population should be allowed to carry maybe, say, a pepper spray, what's got two light sprays in it? No, not much. Enough to get an attacker away.

There's got to be something that we could do. Or maybe, maybe, I don't know, train certain members of population to be taser trained or something and have them in a secure place on trains. So these specially trained people can get to them and use them if they need to. I will say this. I understand people's fear and I understand people's frustrations, but we must never get to a point where we're condoning or suggesting...

vigilante responses or anything like that, but I absolutely get that if you don't see police or we live in a society where we can't stop and search because that'll upset people, people are going to get more and more hacked off. Delighted to say good morning to...

another person who I spent Thursday night with, Isabella Oakeshottalks International Editor. Good morning. Good morning. There's so much to say about this absolute horror over the weekend, isn't there? I mean... We've had a number of contributors this morning on talk talking about wanting to arm themselves. And, you know, that really is terrifying. Is that where we've got to?

in modern Britain that people are talking about having to carry some form of defensive weapon. I find that deeply disturbing. And I also find it very understandable because... you know i was back in the uk i'm now back in the middle east where frankly i feel a whole lot safer than i would in the uk um i was back in the uk for only five days last week and during that time there were Three absolute horrors. There was the unbelievable bloody stabbing.

of an innocent dog walker who is tragically dead. There was a court case about another horrific crime that all came to a conclusion that involved an asylum-seeking incident.

incident and now we have this which happened as I was flying out of the country and yes it was a particularly horrific week in the UK but there does seem to be a growing pattern of horrendous violence and now i've looked into this quite a lot in recent months over what the statistics show and there's a lot of dispute about that isn't there you know is britain becoming more violent and so on and so forth what is very apparent is that knife crime um is a is a growing problem i think and

What we don't have, mercifully, is as much gun crime. And to put this in perspective, I was thinking back, and you'll remember these awful cases, Jeremy. I was thinking back, you know...

are we getting are things getting so much worse you know horrific mass um casualty events are they are they a new thing and actually i could remember from my own childhood two horrific things there was of course the Don Blaine shooting. in which 16 little children were killed and their teacher. That was in 1996 in Scotland. And there was also another one which made a deep impression on me as a young teenager, which was the Hungerford massacre.

which 16 people, again 16, got dead. And in the wake of those absolute atrocities, Gun laws in our country changed. You'll remember, you know, the whole issue around the ability to own handguns. And that's an improvement. And mercifully, we don't seem to have... Let me jump in for a sec.

because, as you know, the wife doesn't usually get involved, but she was straight on the text at 25 past six this morning. She made a really salient point. You just said it about gun crime. She said it about acid attacks. Acid attacks were suddenly three or four years ago. Everybody was having acid attacks. thrown at them and they brought in, I think, statutory...

penalty sentence much greater than ever been. I'm not saying they've petered out, but you're certainly not hearing about them. I am sick to death of being told that, you know, if we stop and search, it's going to upset this group or that group. Here's the thing. I don't care. I said it before.

about the colour of your skin, your ethnicity, your religion, your creed. I don't care what colour you are. If you're carrying a knife, I think you're... I think you're a... a threat to our society. If I was carrying a knife, or I wasn't carrying a knife, and I was stopped and searched, I wouldn't be angry. And I'll tell you the other thing I would do. I would make sure that the sentences were longer, they were statutory, and she served...

The whole bloody sentence. And your partner said not an hour ago on the show, and he's absolutely right, not only should we build more prisons, but we should deport foreign criminals so we've got space to put scumbags who think it's OK to walk around with a knife in the clink. to stay in the clink. I don't even understand how there's a debate about that, Isabel. I really don't. Simple. Well, I, of course, agree with everything Richard said on this.

have to have a zero tolerance approach to carrying of knives. And the opposite seems to have happened. And, you know, Richard didn't actually mention on the show with you this morning that he himself was... peripherally involved in a case in which a young man was carrying a machete through the streets of Boston on a Friday afternoon. And I want to understand why that, in that case, the young man

concerned was found not guilty. There's a picture of him carrying the machete. There was a 999 response. I don't know why that ended the way it did, but it raises... some questions and certainly provides us an insight into the challenges that prosecutors and police face.

in actually changing anything on this front. If you're not found guilty after wandering around the streets of suburbia with a machete and you're definitely not a sushi chef, then I don't know what you are found guilty. Sorry, you'd know more. about things than I. Are you saying that sushi... I can't even say it. What's a sushi chef? Does a sushi chef use a machete?

Well, they do use very, very, very long sharp knives, Jeremy. But I think I'm going to stick my neck out here and say this guy was not a chef. No, I think you might absolutely be right. So listen, lots of response to that this morning. I really appreciate it. And the other thing, just very quickly in opinion, and then we're going to change it a little bit.

Why is it not terrorism? The government said this is not terrorist. We got the CPS definition. It's not the Crown Prosecution. It is the Crown Prosecution, if you don't believe a word they say. This is their definition of a terrorist. The actions included are endangering a person's life other than that of the person committing the action and creating a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public. It's a terrorist attack, isn't it?

No, I'm not as caught up on this as you are, actually, Jeremy. And we're very much in the realms of speculation here anyway. You missed out there, I think, is that the act has to be motivated by a political... Religious, racial or ideological cause. Well, that's the crucial thing. And I don't think it really helps to say it's terrorism. And we all know that everybody was terrified. But terrorism is about an ideology. Now, we don't know what...

We don't know what lay behind this, but my own suspicion strongly is that this is a kind of Valdo Calacane case. This person is probably a paranoid schizophrenic and there will be all sorts of questions to ask about mental health services. Do they find out in the next few days that the authorities knew about him and he slipped through the... net as we usually hear. That'll probably happen, won't it?

Well, depressingly, probably so. But I think it's not that helpful to fixate on whether it is or isn't defined as terrorism at this point. I'll tell myself off. Miss Oakshot's told me off on a Monday morning. Right now, listen, this is very, very important.

the man that controls this empire. I'm not going to name him. I thought it would be a good idea to launch Virgin Radio Christmas on the 1st of November on Saturday. Which is utterly ludicrous, Denny. Ridiculous. The 1st of November. I've got to spend 54 days listening to it. I wish it... could be christmas now you're not a scrooge you've got children richard called me a miserable sod where do you stand on this how early should we start this madness

I do not want to hear Christmas songs now. Please spare me. I mean, my kids are starting to talk about putting up Christmas decorations. Here in the Middle East of all places, in Dubai, the shops are full of Christmas things. No, stop it. Go away. Brilliant. Do this. While we're on it, you Scrooge-like Kyle, I love it. Fireworks. There is a serious...

side to this and a light-hearted side. We've got fireworks night on Wednesday. Diwali's been going since October the 20th. I've got a baby and they go off the whole bloody time. People with pets are saying they're a disgrace. People are saying they're like explosives. We've got countries full of... People with... Where do you stand on fireworks? Look at this video. This is on social media. A bus in Birmingham coming under attack from fireworks. They hit a car. I mean, look at that.

That is awful. But actually, in general, I'm incredibly up for fireworks. I love fireworks. I think they're great. And I think someone who's tired of fireworks is tired of life. But when they go off at an angle, and I've been at a fireworks display where that happened, it is actually very frightening. I mean, no one's saying that that extraordinary footage is in any way OK. But in general, more fireworks, the better. Do they have firework displays in the Middle East?

Not of the kind that you're talking about. I'm going on Friday to the school one. Baked potato, toffee, apple, the whole nine yards. I love all that. Absolutely love all that. And I don't think, to go back to your Christmas question, surely... Christmas shouldn't begin until well after Guy Fawkes' night. It needs to be sort of second half of November at the earliest. They are. The woman has spoken the truth. She's told me off about my terrorist definition. She hates Christmas.

That early like me. She loves fireworks and she thinks we should definitely do something about the appalling knife crime in this country. Always such a pleasure to have you on. Thank you so much indeed. Isabel Oakshot Talks International Editor.

Take a breath. You're not alone. Let's talk about what's going on. Counseling helps you sort through the noise with qualified professionals and online therapy makes it convenient. See if it's for you. Visit betterhelp.com slash random podcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy. And let life feel better. If you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zinn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons.

Zinn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus, Zinn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zinn. Check out zinn.com slash find to find Zinn at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet...

Here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's $15 a month. Two, seriously, it's $15 a month. Three, no big contracts. Four, I use it. Five, my mom uses it. Are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for a three-month plan, $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com.

It is Monday, the 3rd of November. This is JK until 10. If you want to be involved in the debate, we've been saying it since 6 o'clock. As ever, you'll say, please, 0344-499-1000. Text to 8722. Start your message with the word. You can do voice notes. Been getting them all day. Obviously the main news story, that mass train stabbing. Front of the sun, the devil.

On the 6th, the 1825, this just horrendous crime with his madman with a machete run amok, knifing 11 passengers. The hero, one of the guards, one of the workers, fighting for his life today, having saved many people. from a horrible ending, the driver bravely carrying on to the next station, the amazing emergency services. But it's raised many, many questions. It's raised the question of knife crime and why we're not dealing with it in this country. Why are we not stronger? Do we not...

feel that there should be more stop and search. There should be stronger sentences. Those sentences should be what they are for. Do we not think as a society that that might actually send a message to people who think they can do this? It questions... how we deal with people with mental health issues, social care in the community. I fear, and I could be wrong, that within days we will hear that this guy was known to the authorities and hadn't been treated properly or hadn't been, you know...

secured, just so many of these examples. And you just end up thinking, you know, what is the truth? We have the government being...

a little bit more forthcoming than they were after Southport, saying it's a black 32-year-old man. I suspect, could be wrong, that they'll be saying that sort of thing because a lot of people... in the current situation and climate, would be thinking, oh, is this some sort of terrorist thing led by some, I don't know, Islamic fundamentalist group because of all the problems across the world?

All of that in the mix, but just to personalise this, right, for what it means and the horror. We can talk politically, we can have a motivation. Imagine being on that train. Ollie Foster was. Have a listen. I was in coach H I was just listening to audible on my phone and then I had guys suddenly run past going run run there's a guy standing literally everyone everything

There was a few of us kind of looking at each other like thinking, oh, was it a joke? Like it's Halloween, happy pranking. But then you could kind of see in their faces they were being serious. I kind of got my stuff and I was running and everyone was really pushing behind us, really panicking.

And at this point, I was kind of asking questions like, what's happening? Like, who is it? No, like a guy's just stabbing everyone back there. Put my hand on this chair, like just trying to push myself forward.

And then I look at my hand and it's covered in blood. And then I look at the chair and there's blood all over the chair. And I'm thinking, okay, this is pretty serious. So some of the guys that had run through to kind of alerts to run, they were the ones who were also being stabbed. So we're running over and getting to the edge of the carriage. I'm still trying to work out who is it, what's their intentions, what's their motives.

And our job here on Talk is to give you the truth and allow you to debate that common sense. The common sense in all of this is we surely need more policemen and women on the streets. We need to, as I said... create stronger deterrence, be that in the crimes, having a punishment that's sort of relatable. But what's happening is there's fear, picked up on that.

But also people, and I'm not saying I condone it, are beginning to say, well, how are we going to defend ourselves? Morning, Jane. Morning, JK. Great show. I'm going to London at the end of this month and I've actually bought some self-defence spray because...

It absolutely petrifies me. I'm going to supposedly enjoy myself. I'm going to be absolutely terrified for the four days that I'm in London. Let's say a very good morning to the Shadow Home Secretary. Chris, Phil, Chris, good morning. Welcome to Morning Glory.

Good morning Jeremy. Anybody of any political persuasion will look at what's happened on Saturday and just be appalled. It's a heinous crime and, of course, all the questions will start coming. Why are we not, and I'm not laying this entirely at the Labour Party...

at your lot, starting with Theresa May. Why are we not stronger on knife crime? Why don't we... Maybe I'm a madman. Why don't we say, if you're found with a knife, you're going to jail for that period and you're not being let out. Why do we not say, I'm not bothered about upsetting certain...

We are going to stop and search at will and if that helps us get knives off the street and stop situations like that, surely that makes sense, Chris Philp. Yeah, well I agree and I said... essentially what you just said at our party conference just a few weeks ago we need way more stop and search because stop and search

does take knives off the street. One of the most eminent criminologists, Professor Lawrence Sherman, said that if we return stop and search levels to the 2011 levels, it would prevent 30%. of knife-enabled homicides, which is something like about 80 per year. There's about 250 in total. I think in high crime, the high crime hotspot areas where crime is most prevalent, the 5%...

hotspot areas where a quarter of all crime takes place. The police should do general stop and search of anyone even if they have no grounds for suspicion and outside of those hotspots. It should be a lot easier to do stop and search because it will get, as I say, as you said and as I've said, it takes knives off the street. Now, some left-wing politicians like Sadiq Khan and others complain about stop and search.

They say that the black community gets disproportionately stopped and searched. But when you measure stop and search, not against the total population, but against the offending population, the disproportionality... disappears and if you look at the success rate of stop and search so the percent of stop and searches where a knife or drugs are found which in london is about 30 about 30 they find something that figure within a percent or two

is the same across all ethnic groups. And if the police were unfairly picking on one particular group, then those figures would be different. They're not different, they're about the same. So I said in my conference, we need to triple stop and search, is what we need to do.

Breaking news, which you might not be aware of, but as the Shallow Home Secretary probably will very soon, Anthony Williams has just been named. 32-year-old from Peterborough. He's just been charged with 10 counts of attempted murder, one count of actual bodily...

and one count of the possession of a bladed article following this knife attack on that train in Caimshire on Saturday. British Transport Police have just released it. Anthony Williams, 32, from Peterborough, has just been charged with 10 counts of attempted murder, one count of actual bodily harm.

one counter-possession of a bladed article. We'll keep you updated on talk. Chris, I don't want to make this political because the one thing that I've heard this morning on the show is fear. You heard it in that caller there. There are people who are saying, I mean, you won't have been around. I was saying this story earlier about my son. Went on the train from the south coast to London last night. He's 16 to go back to his mate's golf college today.

drunken man in his 20s uh was rude to him approached him didn't attack him but he abused him and then somebody jumped in and he was he was scared and that's natural Dean in West Wales says, in Australia they have what they call transit guards on the trains. Women and young girls can travel alone without feeling unsafe. Perhaps we need it here. When I say I don't want to make it political...

The lack of policemen and women on the street started with Theresa May. You were in power for 14 years. How have we got a knife crime epidemic? It's all well and good now, and I agree with you, but this isn't 14 months, this problem. This has been a long time coming, Chris Philp, hasn't it?

Yes, look, over the last five years or so, knife crime did get reduced, but it's still too high. About 250 or so knife-enabled homicides a year.

it's far too high now there were reductions in police numbers after 2010 because of the financial mess the previous Labour government left behind but when I was police minister in the last couple of years of the last government we recruited a lot more police officers and we actually left government a year and a half ago with record ever numbers of police. 149,769 on March 31st, 2024. That's the highest number in history. Unfortunately, since then, under Labour, it has started going...

So one of the things I announced at our conference a few weeks ago was an extra £800 million to fund 10,000 more police officers, about half of whom should be used to do surge hotspot patrolling in those high crime. Hotspots, because we know that surge hotspot policing works. We know stop and search works. But Chris, I'm not against that, but you'd hardly call a train between Doncaster and Huntington a hotspot. What I'm trying to talk about is, and I get it, I'm not having a go, but...

It's almost like I used to watch the television about those gun shootings, massacres in America and think, oh, my God, that's America. What I'm saying is not that Huntingdon is the norm. We can think back to Hungerford. We were talking about that earlier. I would hate in a week for this to just be chalked off as the norm. Something has to be done. All I've heard this morning is fear.

People are fearing to go and sit on a train on their own. What does that say about our society? We've become a society that seems to apologise for people who commit crimes and not really be doing enough, in my humble opinion, about the victims.

That's right. Well, I agree. So we should not be apologising or cosseting the perpetrators. We should be sending them to prison for a very long time and we should be showing zero tolerance in public. And that includes, I've said it before and you said it at the beginning, a lot.

more tactics like stop and search the use of technology like live facial recognition to identify wanted criminals and known dangerous offenders not the public obviously whose images get immediately and automatically deleted says technology we can use We should have zero tolerance for this stuff because people like your son you mentioned, your 16 year old son, the caller from Wales you mentioned, they should not be feeling fearful on a train.

on the high street, frankly, anywhere. We should be putting all of our training, all of our attention on the perpetrators, showing zero tolerance and zero mercy to those perpetrators and putting them where they belong, which is in prison. and we need to get a lot tougher.

on this stuff, in my view, and it sounds like your listeners agree with that as well. Max in Minchampan says, if I get pulled over in a car by the police for a random breath test, I should only have a problem with that if I've been drinking. So, if I get stopped on a random knife search...

I really should only have a problem with that if I've got a knife on me. He says mandatory five years for carrying and mandatory 25 years for using and you could get the prison space. If you're not going to build prisons, deport the foreign criminals in a heartbeat. Makes sense to me. Yeah, look, I think there's a great deal in those thoughts. There are, as he says, something like 10,000 or slightly over 10,000.

foreign national offenders, foreign criminals in our prisons, a lot of those should be... basically deported straight away. Some should serve a bit more time in prison and then get deported. And that would free up space in our prisons for knife offenders and other forms of prolific offender. I think prolific shoplifters should go to prison as well.

So I think there's a lot in what your caller says there. Really appreciate your time, my friend. Thank you. That is Chris Philp, Shadow Home, Secretary, quarter past nine. Just to break that breaking news, Anthony Williams, 32, from Peterborough.

has just been charged by the British Transport Police with ten counts of attempted murder, one count of actual bodily harm and one count of the possession of a bladed article following... that terrifying knife attack on that train in Cambridgeshire on Saturday.

If you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zinn nicotine pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Zinn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus, Zinn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zin. Check out Zin.com slash find to find Zin at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.