Budget Deceit

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Hey, very good morning, my friends. Just after 6 o'clock and welcome to Talk. It's where the nation comes to talk. It's JK back at the controls after a very interesting week playing golf. Never mind, I'll tell you more later. Just on 6 o'clock.

My God. I was sad, actually, I have to say, last week thinking, I wish I hadn't been away because the budget was scintillating, wasn't it? And of course, everybody's had their say. It seems that I've returned to a country where if you go to work... and you pay tax, and you live within the confines of the law,

you're screwed because it's basically better to not go to work, to sit on benefits and to procreate till the cows come home. But loads of that coming up. We say a very good morning to you. It's the 1st of December. Rachel Reeves has been in the firing line, it seems, for weeks and weeks and weeks. And... Still, her pre-budget lies are the number one news story in town. Yesterday, it's all over the papers today, front of the Times, ministers, Reeves misled us over Black Hole.

So this is a woman who does that emergency sort of press conference where you're trying to eat your Cheerios, as Camille Bainnot said, who said, there's a black hole and I'm going to have to raise taxes because the finances were all screwed up by the Tories. Transpires she had nearly five million.

in credit, but she thought she'd scare us all so she could, in fact, well, I say benefit people who don't do an awful lot. That's the argument. But now, this is how in trouble this government is. Now Starmer's own cabinet, right?

have been briefing against their own Chancellor, saying she misled them. Starmer's been dragged in it because he can't tell the truth if it was written in front of him. And our very own Nigel Farage, of course, the leader of reform, has now written to Starmer's own ethics advisor to say, I think you'll find that your Chancellor...

is indeed a liar. Hopefully, Nigel on this show later on, Sarah Pochin as well from Reform, giving their response to that. But here it is. This is how bizarre a country we now live in and I've returned to. Starmer today, I'm going to do a speech. I did about 10.30. Well, he's going to call for a cut to benefits. So, see, if you're listening on the radio, I'm looking slightly confused because... just a few days ago, they increased benefits.

We paid too much in benefits, but he gave out more, and now he's trying to cut it. Of course, the other big news was the chance to soften rules for teenagers who have mental health problems and ADHD. They don't have to go to school anymore. Honestly, I got up this morning at four o'clock and I'm wondering why the hell I bothered. Jury trials as well. Calamity Lammy is still a figure of fun, isn't he?

Loads of people responding to this today. He wants to scrap jury trials. And all criminal cases where a suspect could be jailed for five years will be decided by a judge on their own. I don't know about you, but I haven't got much confidence in the judge. A couple of other things. Asylum madness. A Pakistani immigrant fraudster.

who conned elderly people out of their life savings, is fighting deportation. He says he's got a problem and only the British NHS can give him therapy needs. But perhaps the funniest story of the weekend, my friends, is the Your Party. is called Your Party. Jeremy and that nutter, Sara Sultana...

still at war, have decided that... Have we got a clip from that? This is one of the most extraordinary things. Very quickly, to start my Monday off, your party's inaugural party just descended into chaos. They're all having a go at each other. this is one of the delegates this is the your party conference yesterday in liverpool good morning britain hi there conference my name is erin from glasgow when this party started it included two mps who are openly transphobic

one of whom was a landlord. This party preaches unity and equality for its working class members. I'm sorry, I need to stop you there for calling them transphobic from the rostrum. Can you please stick to the motion? Two members who allegedly expressed transphobic views.

It's not a great start. I think we'll write them off and concentrate on this particularly dreadful government. We say a very good morning. It's looking amazing. What a way to start breakfast on a Monday. Peter Blexley, good morning. Are you allegedly transphobically concerned about... Anything that's going on in the Your Party.

I dread to think what that bunch of nutters would call me. Many, many, many names, I'm sure. But a pinch and a punch for the first day of the month, Mr Carl. Thank you. Don't try that at work, audience, please. No, no, don't do it. Because, you know, just that jovial bit of fun.

which I've done ever since I was a child, would undoubtedly end you up in an employment tribunal. It certainly will, certainly in this building. A very good morning to you, Peter. Let's start, I've been away, but let's start with Rachel Reeves or Rachel Thieves. extraordinary budget from afar and this sort of premise that actually...

It turns out that working and living within the confines of the law isn't a good look anymore. It's better to just sit at home. That's what you take from it, right? Well, yes, but if you need a prescription and you want to travel on the train, they will tell you... it's very good news for you because prescription charges and railfares have been frozen so there you go we are all supposed to be dancing in the streets now and waving our red flags

and bowing in front of Starmer and Reeves. And did you see her yesterday? Yes, I did. Oh, my word. Stumbling, bumbling.

trying to cover her tracks and looking more and more stupid with every word that tumbled out of her mouth. Well, let's look at this front of the Times today. Ministers, Reeves misled us over hole in finance. His front page of the Times is dominating every single... newspaper today we've now got her colleagues in cabinet senior labor labor politicians briefing against their own chances saying she lied to us and in essence if you're waking up she said we're in we're in the the mess

which is why I need to raise taxes but basically she wasn't in a mess and she wanted to raise taxes to make all working people

Pay for people who don't want to work. Claiming there is a huge financial black hole. Yes. When the Office for Budget Responsibility, the OBR, had clearly told her there was nearly a five... billion pound surplus nice so clearly something's gone drastically wrong here and many people are alleging perhaps quite rightly that rachel reeves has been less than economic with the truth

And she's kind of shelved that surplus, made no mention of it, gone in front of the House of Commons, potentially, and misled them, which is why Mr Farage has written his letter. It's why people are complaining to the Ethics Committee and they're asking for referrals and they want this to be further investigated because I'm sure everybody will know misleading the House of Commons is a very, very serious thing. if it's proven that she has done that. But did she, if this is true, just genuinely...

And I break in because we've got some breaking news. If I was Keir Starmer, OK, I'd literally stay in bed. Breaking news on Talk With A Nation comes to talk, my friends. You'll remember the anti-corruption minister, Tulip Sadiq, spouted about corruption. in government and how the Tories had messed up the country. In the last few minutes, Tulik Sadiq has been sentenced to two years in prison in Bangladesh.

over corruption charges. So there you are. I don't know whether they'll extradite her or whether she can get away with that, but Tunit Sadiq, the... Labour anti-corruption minister has just been sentenced to two years in prison in Bangladesh over corruption. Your response to that, PB? She does have a very chequered past. There have been many questions asked about her over...

property ownership and the such like, and property inheritance or property gifts. Who knows? It's a very, very murky affair. I suspect, however, that she will not be getting on a plane to Bangladesh any time soon. Should she not resign?

as an MP if she's been found guilty of corruption in another country. Where does that leave the ethics advisor on that one? It's all going wrong, isn't it? I'm so happy I'm back. I'm sure she's got a very highly paid lawyer thumbing through the rule book to say...

You are convicted in a foreign jurisdiction of a crime. Does that affect your ability to sit as an MP? Right. Back to my main news. What can I say about Rachel Reeves? I mean, we've looked for a long time on talk. People will have come on and said there's. Nothing about this woman that we trust or believe or feel that she has the experience to do a really important job. A big thing was made about she's the first.

Female Chancellor, fantastic. She's inextricably tied into Starmer as he is into her. The big question I thought, listening last week, was did he know that she was allegedly lying over a black hole that... apparently, according to the OBR, doesn't exist. Well, whether he did or whether he didn't, he's going to leap to her defence today, apparently, in a speech. Why? And he's going to defend her to the ilk, because, as you have just quite rightly pointed out, they are joined.

at the hip yeah politically in their positions in downing street They are inextricably linked, the pair of them. So if one has to go, there will be huge, huge questions about the other. I want us to be fair on this station today. We've got a clip of Rachel Reeve. She is the Chancellor of the Exchequer. She lives at number 10. She is indeed in charge of the nation's public finances. This is her saying, I would never, ever take risks. Have a watch.

The Office of Budget Responsibility, you're not interviewing them, you're interviewing me, but they decided... But you're blaming them. Well, they decided to do a review of productivity. That is the Conservative legacy. The Office of Budget Responsibility are really...

clear that that productivity downgrade does not reflect anything that this government has done. I set the budget within the context of the independent... Now, I could have just said, oh, I'll ignore the Office of Budget Responsibility. That's what Liz... Trust and Quasi-Quartain did. And look at the impact of that. That crashed the economy. It sent interest rates soaring and put pensions in peril. I've always said I would never take risks in the public finance.

The thing about it is, is you look at her and you think... Are you for real? Let me read this to you. Just imagine if Rachel Thieves is still in this post this time of this year. She'll be back for more. She's an incompetent lying idiot. She, along with the rest of the Labour Party, are doing untold damage to our once great nation. making it almost pointless just to work

or save, or have anything. This mess will take a monumental amount of time and effort to rectify. I think loads of people would agree with Sean, right? You and I are both football supporters, albeit of different teams, and I'm now going to apologise to anybody in the audience. who's not a football fan. But Rachel Reeves reminds me of when our clubs over the years, they go to the lower leagues, to a non-league side. They go to a non-league side and for very little money, they buy a player.

because they think they might have some ability. So they then get parachuted into your team and you quickly find they are way out of their depth. They should not have been promoted to the first team of a side in a much higher league. And, of course, they gently fade back from whence they have come in the lower leagues. That's my analogy for Rachel Reeves. Promoted way beyond her capabilities, and she should be, perhaps.

doing some other kind of job in finance, who knows, but certainly nowhere near.

and, sorry to correct you, number 11, Downing Street. Great, made me look an idiot. Front of the Daily Mail today, Nigel Farage has waded in, quite rightly, actually. Nigel says Reeves must face Sleaze probe over budget lies. Rachel Reeves is facing the prospect of a probe.

Nigel Farage has written to the ethics watchdog, basically saying, with the greatest respect, as you touched upon, if you've lied to the House of Commons, you've lied to the United Kingdom, that is an ethical problem, and she... needs to be brought to bear the interesting thing for us right is for all of us i think is that

As you said, this woman and Starmer are joined at the hip. And if he comes out and defends her, I mean, it'll be a whitewash, won't it? Are you allowed to say that? I'm not sure. It'll be a whitewash because the ethics advisor will be doing all he can to protect Starmer. I just... thought from afar last week and I don't know what you think about this it strikes me that that

There's no way out of this for her. The papers, the stories, her own cabinet, they're going to keep going and going and going. And I have to say, it's no more than she deserves. I agree with you. She's massively incompetent. Yeah, and I think... where she's really on a sticky wicket. You may recall that a couple of weeks before the budget, she rather unusually, in an almost unprecedented move, called a press conference and announced...

the huge budget deficit then, almost trying to pave the way for tax increases. And let's face it, freezing tax thresholds is a tax increase, which is what she did. And at that point, it is alleged that she knew there was a surplus and not this huge deficit. So either way, it would appear. that at some stage she has clearly misled. I think it's... Can we say just very quickly, good morning to James. Morning, James. Morning, James.

Not working. Good morning, Jezza. Now, this government are in absolute shambles. How on earth Rachel Reeves and Starma are still there? It's quite unbelievable, Jezza. Now, I do believe in five to ten years, Jeremy. We're going to have to make a choice whether or not I'm going to stay in this country or not because this is getting worse and worse and worse. I've never known anything like it. I mean, it's been bad, but this is over the edge now.

How much more tax are we going to have to pay? What is the point of me going to work? And I think loads of people, Pete, like James, sorry for the start there, my fault, I pushed the wrong button. I genuinely think that loads of people right now getting up and going to work across the United Kingdom, like James, are going to be saying, what is the point? Why don't I just sit on my backside and do nothing? If you want to be...

Park. This is where the nation comes to talk. 0344 499 1000. You can ring, but we love the voice notes. Leave your voice note. Christian will cut it up. It doesn't matter if you messed it up. Send a text as well. 87222. Let's go to Newcastle.

ask why Starmer will defend Reeves in the Commons today? Well, it's because he has no judgment, no morals, no principles. He believes that he can get away with anything. And I'm telling you now, says Jan in Newcastle, he can't. In Lancashire, Zoe, this is interesting. And I think a lot of people this will resonate with. She says,

The extra cash they're getting, they have control over it. They're not going to use it to lift their kids out of poverty. They're going to continue, well, she says, taking drugs, drinking more, covering their bodies in tattoos and having nights out. This lifting the cat was just to get...

Yet the benefit scroungers votes nothing more. They are a bunch of gaslighting thieves who don't care that they have robbed people like me, working people, taking the money out of my pocket to finance the lazy generation.

I think Zoe in Lancaster has a really interesting point, don't you? We are. Our benefits bill, our welfare bill, as they call it, is vast. It's in excess of £100 billion a year, easily.

And, of course, something has to be done about that. And there are, undoubtedly, among those who claim benefits, genuine people, genuine hardship, of course, but... the reckless and the feckless, and those who will be encouraged just to shell out another child, whether they can afford it or not, comfortable in the knowledge that the government are going to give them yet more money, will be encouraged by the raising.

I thought as I drove in this morning, and I don't actually genuinely ever bring it up very often, but the old show that I used to do used to talk to all sorts of people like that. And I used to say, get off your backside, get a job, stop popping out children. Why should we be giving?

council houses or apartments, flats, whatever, to people just to procreate. And people are like, oh my God, this is outrageous. It is not outrageous, right? I like you, and I think most people listening to this would be really happy to pay our taxes to help.

The mentally ill, the disabled and the people who are trying their backsides off to work. And I know plenty and I'm not even getting a response. But if we do not surely as a society face up to the fact that we have created through this bloated welfare state.

A situation where people can choose to do nothing. Choose to do nothing as against the old ethic of, you know what, I'm going to get up this morning. I know my neck's on the line. I'm going to go to work. I'm going to feed my kids. I'm going to look after my wife. And I might not even get to get a beer this week, but I'll be able to look.

look myself in the mirror and say, do you know what? I did right by what I was taught. Pete, what do you make of ill me, old son? Welcome back, Jeremy. I don't think people understand what's going on here. We've been told for donkey's years now that the British birth rate has gone through the floor. So the only people that will actually benefit out of the removal of the child cap are those families have hordes of kids, i.e.

the Starmer voter demographic, the ones who are incomers to this country. But what this has got the media doing is having British people at each other's throats. It's not going to be some 20-year-old laying at home in bed because he can't be bothered to get a job getting any of this money.

They're not going to get any of it. And British people are hardly going to get any of it. People need to wake up. This is a Labour psyops type of thing going on here. And they've got everybody at each other's throats, haven't they? It's interesting, Pete. You know, when we were...

doing the shows during the election, I remember, because I'm old like you, thinking, they're being conned here, the British people. I don't believe that the Labour Party... for most of its existence, has really done anything more than say, I'm going to tax anybody, and not just this banner of wealthy anybody, anybody who's doing anything, anybody who's aspirational, building a business, saving, I'm going to screw them all and I'm going to pay people.

I'm afraid, under the banner of working people, but actually you end up giving money to people and simply trying to buy votes. I think we'll end up totally skint if we're not skint now, won't we? It's not a case of you thinking it. It's the absolute... reality that we face and yesterday because of course i'm here commenting i was watching the lamentable reeves

And I then watched another political programme on television, which had James Murray MP, who works in the Treasury, right? He's one of Reeves' team. And he absolutely sat there and admitted that it's about... raising taxes to spend. He said, tax and spend. And the words just flowed out of his mouth.

Because that is any socialist Labour government. Tax and spend. Not reduce taxation to promote business so people will employ more and perhaps can open another outlet if they've got a small chain. And employ people and the money... created... just filters down and everybody benefits. And people spend it and people pay their taxes and so the economy grows. People feel a bit better about themselves because they've got a few more quid in their pocket. No, no, no, no, no. James Murray, MP.

of the Treasury team, admitting live on television yesterday...

Tax and spend. That's your Labour Party. That's this government. That's what you're waking up to on Monday the 1st of December. Can I just say that if you had the old Talk app, you need to check... It's gone. We've got a new one. Download the Talk app right now. You can see us and hear us and take...

us anywhere you want, even to the cows. He's 6.22. You're raking up to the news that Rachel Reeves, under fire from almost everybody since the OBR said she was lying. Now her own cabinet are briefing against her.

Open warfare in the Labour Party. Starmer today making a speech saying, well, I support her. And also, I think it's really important that I tell you that I want to cut benefits, which is confusing many of us, because last week the Labour Party sent a very clear message, my friends, which I think most...

people would agree with do you know what actually i mean i don't want to encourage you know dishonesty anything but why if you are just about to go into the bathroom and have a shower or get into the car or make your sandwich to go to work why are you bothering let's go back to bed and sign on uh so starma on the rack. Reeves on the rack. Calamity Lamb is on the rack as well. He wants jury trials gone. He just wants judges.

But the breaking news at 6.15 this morning, and it doesn't get any better, is the former anti-corruption minister, Tulip Sadiq, has just been sentenced to two years in prison in Bangladesh. Do you know what for, P? Drum roll. Corruption. Good morning, this is talk. The home of common sense. This is talk. The newest MP, Runcorn and Hellsby for reform. She's back, Sarah Pochin. Good morning.

Good morning, Jeremy. How are you? I'm all right. I've been in Spain for a week with my boy. Delighted to be back and delighted to have you on the show. Can I ask you initially, quickly, because as an ex-magistrate, Tulip Sadiq, it's just that you can't buy this stuff overnight. The anti-corruption minister, Tulip Sadiq, sentenced to two years in Bangladeshi prison.

For corruption, Sarah Pochin. No, by the way, we checked this. No sort of... What's it called when you can... I don't know what the name of the thing is. When you can move people around. Extradition. There you are. Well done, Jess. No extradition treaty. Where do you stand on this? Well, look, you know, it's shocking behaviour by the Labour Party, isn't it?

Anybody in public life that does a job like I do, that does a job like Tulip Sadiq does, should be living their lives to the highest standards. I'm so aware of not doing anything wrong because the minute I sort of... park on a double yellow line or god knows what you know well don't pay my parking fine yeah you know the press are all over it so

How this can happen is beyond belief, isn't it? It really is. And it's interesting, that last caller, I don't know if you had said this, but they said that if Keir Starmer, the world's most wholesome human rights lawyer who gave away the Chagos Islands and talked... incessantly about respecting other nations had a degree or a shred of decency, he surely extradited her himself, but he won't because she's a neighbour MP and it will absolutely say everything about the party, won't it?

Well, of course, we'd welcome her gone. We'd welcome a by-election. And of course, that's the last thing Keir Starmer wants, because that undoubtedly, I'm sure, could result in our sixth Reform MP. do everything they can possible not to bring a by-election but whether or not she's extradited or not surely the mere fact that this has happened means that she should stand down um and there should be a by-election in this seat i mean

actually not even sure which seat is hers. Next door to Keir Starmer's in London. He's Hoburn, of course. She's next door. They've been close forever, so that'll be interesting. Sarah, loads to talk to you about. Before we get on to something that I'm really interested in your opinion on, which is... is the jury trials calamity under David Calamity Lammy. Just very quickly, all the newspapers this morning, front of the Times.

Ministers are now briefing the times that Rachel Reeves misled them about this black hole. The leader of your party, Nigel Farage, is going to be on after 9.30. He says Reeves must face sleaze probe over budget lies. What's your take on this? approaching. Look, this budget was a shambles and it has been for weeks before the actual budget day. As we all know, none of us needed to sit in the chamber. The whole thing had been leaked. Rachel Reeves had been playing around with the markets as it was.

testing you know things like that income tax rise going effectively overtly against their manifesto whereas in the end she decided to go around the sneaky route and bring people into paying more tax by fiscal

But people are not fools. They know what's going to happen. I have people only last week, at the end of last week, when I'm in my constituency, coming in and telling me they understand, they get it, they understand what fiscal drag is. You know, you can't pull the... wool over people's eyes anymore and assume people are not going to understand what's happening it's an absolute disgrace and the fact is that

In my opinion, and I don't know what Nigel's going to say at 9.30, but a lot of this sort of policy seems to be all about keeping her backbenchers happy, putting up or making sure there's billions in this welfare. system that we strongly say should be reformed I mean and only this morning I read that there's now softer checks for youngsters I think with

ADHD and anxiety, not to go to school. You don't have to send your kid to school if he's got ADHD or on a course. Keep him at home and we'll still give you the benefits. It's so damaging. The point is, Sarah, what scares people, and it shouldn't, right, is...

The people who will say, who I am happy to go to work for, who you are to pay taxes, because as a society, I think the welfare state was the greatest invention in the modern world. It said a lot about us, but it is being... played, garnered, screwed over, and the genuine people, this is what I message I want to get across, are missing out because people who shouldn't be getting it...

are getting it. Listen, the main story that I wanted to talk to you about today, 20 years' experience as a magistrate. I'm talking to our next Justice Secretary or Home Secretary, ladies and gentlemen. Trust me on that. Calamity Lammy, help me out here. He wants to scrap...

jury trials. On the front of almost every newspaper this morning, The Telegraph, I thought, did it really, really well. The Telegraph said that overhauling jury trials, Sarah, will lead to more free speech convictions. Your thoughts, please. Well, the point is, is that I mean, I really feel this subject. so deeply and care about this so deeply yes because i did 20 years as a magistrate but the fact is is that a jury is a trial uh in crown court is about a judge and a jury that works together so

The judge will advise on the law, but the jury takes the view of the people. They make a decision on the facts. Now, if you take the jury out of that equation, you are just left with a judge. And what's to say, very difficult to get rid of a judge once they're in place. Now, what's to say that judge isn't the best judge, isn't acting with the best integrity?

the only people that can hold a judge to account is a jury by effectively finding the individual whether it's guilty or not guilty but based on their facts. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? So you take a jury out of the equation. They're a safeguard, are they not? And we've seen enough examples recently of blatantly judges, I'm going to call them left wing, with an absolute...

I don't know, agenda and presumably impartiality and working with what you've got on the statute book is what a judge should do. I see 12 people from all walks of life and all age groups, right, as a safeguard. safety net against a judge's biases. That's how I'd see it. And we know, don't we, we've seen it, the politicisation of the judiciary now in our society is frightening. I talk a lot about two-tier justice. There's endless examples of where judges are becoming politicised.

Judges are doing the will of the government, and that is not what the judicial system should be about. And this whole point is that a judge reflects the state, a jury reflects the people. If you take the people out of the equation, you've... only got the state administering justice. And that is where corruption can start. That is where politicisation will grow. And it's something that we absolutely must not allow. Now, what I would say is that there is a terrible backlog.

thousand cases uh waiting to go to trial in this country um but this is not the way to deal with it because and of course um as a magistrate i would say you know justice denied it Justice delayed is justice denied. There's no question about that, but this is not the way to fix it. This is damaging and, as I say, potentially taking away the absolute... basis of our society law and order in this country how would reform fix by your admission not sure that

there would be a complete answer, but I'd love to get your take on it. 80,000 backlog in trials. How would reform deal with that? Well, I think that the Leveson report, which came out earlier this year, recommended that in some cases, and I haven't got time to go into details of different types of cases, but in some cases it could be dealt with by a judge.

and two magistrates. So in a magistrate's court, you always have three magistrates. I was always chairing the bench, and it effectively behaves like a mini jury in a trial in a magistrate's court. You could do that with so many more cases that go through to Crown Court. but you sit with a judge and two magistrates. So Leveson, I think, had something there that you could make happen and make work. But what Lammy wants to do is go a step further, further than Leveson ever recommended.

take the magistrates out of that equation. That's what's dangerous. So in my view, if I was Justice Secretary, I would explore that idea of the judge and two magistrates. It makes sense. There's been millions of times over the years when I've had cases that have gone through to a full Crown Court.

jury which could have adequately been dealt with by a judge and two magistrates. God, you speak such sense. It's so good to have you on, looking so happy on this Monday. Pinch and a punch for the first of the month. Have you had your advent calendar?

Yes, I have, but I haven't eaten my chocolate. I'm saving it for my cup of coffee. Well, I'm going to just read something out, which is absolutely fantastic. It's very, very quick. It says, Morning, it's Glenn from Leeds. He said, I think my advent calendar, guys, is going to last longer than Rachel Thiem.

Interesting. Don't eat more than day one, though. The amazing and brilliant Sarah Pochin, MP, Reform MP for Runcorn and Hellsby. Thank you very much indeed. The home of common sense. This is Tor.

Now, front page of the Daily Telegraph today, overhauling jury trials will lead to more free speech convictions. David Lammy or... Calamity Lammy, as he's known, idea of dealing with an 80,000 case backlog in the courts in Britain has decided that scrapping jury trials and just having a judge would be the answer. We're delighted to be joined. by Britain's top barrister Michael Mansfield KC Michael a very good morning good morning

What is your take overall on David Lammy's suggestion that dealing with this backlog, it would be best to get rid of jurors? Because, listen, you know far more than me, but I always thought... 12 men and women off the streets, if you like, with a safeguard. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It was and in fact still is the envy of the world. And I just want to remind viewers that...

Prime Ministers in the past, including Tony Blair, actually took the jury trial model around the world and demonstrated how it works and why it works. So I think that and Lamy himself. said during coronavirus, when there was a problem with getting the justice system to keep going because of the contact and all the rest of it, he then said very categorically that getting rid of juries at that time was a bad idea.

And I think one of the things that hasn't really been broadcast is this. And that is that there's no evidence that's been produced to demonstrate that having a trial... Without a jury, whether it's just one judge or a judge and two magistrates, which was Leveson's proposal, there is no evidence at all that that is going to be solving the problem.

Where is the evidence that that is quicker? Where is the evidence that the backlog will be cleared? None at all. This is an assumption built on panic stations, when in fact what we're doing is... throwing out one of the basic values of our democratic society and that is you're tried by 12 peers and frankly whenever i i've practiced for a long time over 50 years most almost without exception

very very rare people would prefer to be judged by their own people in other words peers the community than um a professional court and professional judges And I guess as well, Michael, you could add to that. And you did your job eminently, as you said, for 50 years. But judges have not had the best, I suspect.

They're not the most popular at the moment for reasons we can go into. We can talk about the statute book and talk about some lawyers have made, some judges have made sort of decisions that a lot of people disagree with. But there has to be a safety net.

If you take a cross-section of your demographic, whatever those people are, wherever they're from in the United Kingdom, and they judge that person, common sense presumably prevails. But you make the point that this is almost panic stations by this government.

I mean, Lammy, I mean, I don't know. They call him Calamity Lammy. He doesn't seem to know what side of bed to get out of, but I don't want to make it personal. I mean, surely the way to deal with this is to either have more courts or build more prisons. You can put people away or make sentencing last a bit longer.

now jeremy that's an interesting point because the other point that actually the bar makes the criminal bar association and the bar council made this point and the law society so all the professional organizations have been saying strongly what's the problem We've got the courts already. They're built. In fact, during coronavirus, six Nightingale courts, massive, were built. There's one in Croydon in London.

So they're standing, most of them, not entirely empty, but every court building you go in, there are three or four courts within the building empty. And so what is needed is. investment into the system, not get away with, you know, throw away the valuable element of the system is to, and this is a story that applies to lots of other areas, NHS and so on, education and so on.

In other words, update some of the buildings, certainly, but actually populate the courts that are already there with judges because they have not got enough judges. to fill the court. I would respectfully suggest, do you remember, and I don't want this to be political, but it has to be, do you remember after the Southport riots, and listen, I thought that Starmer's response, I didn't like the everybody who did it was far right, but...

Within 24 hours, Michael, live on television, hundreds of people were arrested, hundreds of people were in court being judged. Starmer had police on the street, judges in the courts, and apparently for a court, for a criminal system that has no people, nowhere to put them, they were all put in jail. I just, I'm so with you. We need more judges. We need more prison cells.

I'd love to ask your opinion on this, which has nothing to do with it, but I'd love to ask you this. Why do we have a system in this country which says you've committed a crime I'm giving you five years? Now you only have to serve two and a half, and this bunch of people who are in charge want to make it even less. Why don't we say to people who have committed a crime that's five years, you're going to serve the five years? Well...

This is a different debate. I know, but I thought I'd drop it in. I have very different views about the use of prison and so on, other than for people who need to be locked up for their own protection and for our protection. However... You're on a point which I'm very anxious about, and that is I worry that what governments do is that when juries, ordinary people, come up with decisions that governments do not like.

This idea of getting rid of juries is an ancient one because they always blame the juries as a form of opposition. And I give you an example. I know now you've got other ones on the other side of the political spectrum, but hundreds of people, hundreds are demonstrating against a particular law that's been brought in prescribing Palestine action.

And that is going through the courts at the moment. But these are not young people thugs. They're often people in my bracket. They're elderly in their 70s and 80s who are making a point about... the Middle East and Gaza and so on. And it's a perfectly valid point. They're being detained. They're being arrested. Where are they going to put all these people if they're convicted? And of course, they're not going to get the chance to get. And of course, they'll take juries away.

from the ability to pass judgment. So where are you going to put all these hundreds of people? They're already at bursting point. I mean, the prisons are overcrowded. We all know that. It's been going on for the whole of my career, overcrowded prisons. And again, why don't we build more than Michael? Why don't we build more prisons? Well, that is one point. And of course, they will say, well, we're doing one here and one there and so on.

you know prison and prison occupancy we've got the highest prison occupancy in europe per capita this is ridiculous because it isn't the answer to all ills and you've got Start locking up 80-year-olds because they've been demonstrating in the way that they think, and rightly in my view anyway, in terms of what's been happening in the Middle East. They have the right to... to peacefully demonstrate and that's basically what they're doing.

and yet they're being detained. So I think that... Lucy Connolly got 30 months for some words which I would never condone, but surely that could have been dealt with by making her do some community service in the local Muslim community, couldn't it? Yeah, quite agree. But anyway, back to it, because I could talk to you all day, and I mean that. Utterly fascinating to have you. Juries are the lifeblood of balance, are they not? Yeah, if you think about it.

Actually, if you look at our system as a whole of governance, juries and jury service is the most democratic aspect of what we have. It's more effective than, in my view, Parliament. More representative than Parliament. I don't think anybody would disagree. Will you come on again? I've loved it. It hasn't cost me £800, which is usually what you charge for 10 minutes, isn't it, to be fair?

Not anymore. Great to have you on. Michael Mansfield, Britain's top barrister, the man lived the inquest into the deaths of Dodie, fired Diana, Jill Dando, the Bloody Sunday victims. Great to have him on. Common Sense. This is Talk.

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Good day, Jez. How are you? See, look, you're doing it. You're doing it. I watched you on plank with all the women and you're doing that Australian poor me accent and expect. Look at it. Look, you're loving life, aren't you, son? How are you? I was the DEI hire on Plank of the Week last Friday, yeah. And also, I think, you know, if I ever get booted out of this country, I can use the Australian accent, speech therapy excuse and take it to the Human Rights Court and I may have a good chance.

Mate, this story just about sums up the madness within which we live. Let me repeat that. A Pakistani immigrant fraudster, Omar Iqbal, conned elderly people out of their life fortunes, ruined their lives. He's fighting deportation because he claims he'd be... I'm going to sneeze. He'd suffer PTSD if he went back to Pakistan. Yeah.

There's a darkly funny coffee table book to be made about all of these nonsense ECHR deportation appeals cases, whether it be that Albanian bloke whose daughter didn't like chicken nuggets or... You know, take your pick of any number of them. In this instance, thankfully, at least the preliminary judge has said this is a nonsense. Has he? Has he? Hurrah! A judge who speaks sense.

Don't get excited too soon. There's going to be yet another appeal. The court system is going to be clogged up even more. This is the triple whammy in terms of how stuffed. the system is. He's come in on a student visa in 2010 from Pakistan, obviously as a way of trying to get indefinite leave to remain by the back door. He's been put in prison for six years for conning the British people.

Instead of immediately putting him on a plane and getting him out, he's now been clogging up the appeal system or the judicial system for another three years. And he's still in the country. This has been the country for 16 years now. It goes to show how thoroughly broken. the judicial system is and all of the framework that surrounds it.

Well, it's interesting, actually, because today, of course, there's David Lammy, Calamity Lammy. His idea is to get over this backlog of court cases and the justice system by scrapping jury trials. And we had Michael Mansfield, one of the most eminent KCs in this country, saying that the jury being judged... your peers, a cross-section of your peers, is the safeguard against judges who seemingly make...

irrational judgments because they might have a political motivation or whatever. It seems to me, I mean, the whole migrant situation, and I'd hate forever to just be one of those things that we accept, and it's so important to highlight. It's just nonsensical. You must look. I interviewed Tony Abbott, your ex-Prime Minister, for a special about a year and a half ago. When he brought in the changes that he brought in in Australia...

He stopped the boats overnight and everybody was like, oh, my God. And I know this because my brother's married to an Australian woman who was slightly left. And she was appalled by Tony Abbott. But it not only worked and was backed by the Australian people, even that Albanese bloke, the Labour guy who's now in, has kept that policy going. I don't understand, and I haven't for a while, as to why Great Britain thinks it's OK to be...

off. The only thing that sustains me is the belief that the British public have finally, the silent majority, have worked out that their voice can be heard. And I think they've had enough. I think they've had enough of doing everything right. And I say it every week, being at the back of the queue, mate. Yeah, I had breakfast with Tony about a month ago and he is astonished as well by just not the lack of political skill.

but the lack of political will in this country to get this done. If you remember the Australian example, Labor in Australia, like Labor in the UK, was so against stopping the boats. It was, oh, you know, this is so cruel. This is uncomfortable. kind, it's unfair. And for the last decade in Australia, it's been a bipartisan issue that you control the borders. The UK can do the same thing. You can change the dialogue.

But he requires political courage. And all of the stories that you run this morning, Jez, the common theme is this is a government that is thoroughly lacking in political courage. Yeah, completely. And that and actually. Courage, yes, I'd agree, Will, but also a desire. No, not a desire. Just a habit of lying and feeling, duping. And I keep saying this. I believe that the...

I mean, different from Australia, but I always thought Britain as, you know, morally a leader. We always did the right thing. But underlined, no longer can we...

fob people off with that. Listen, Will, absolutely fantastic. Thank you very much indeed. Will Kingston, political commentator, just gone 9.30. I promised you all morning the man himself, the leader of reform. Nigel Farage today saying that Rachel Reeve must face a... a sleaze probe over her budget lines. He's written to the, well, he's written to the ethics advisor. Nigel, good morning. Welcome to Talk Breakfast. Good morning, Tim. How are you, sir?

Yeah, fine. But I mean, you know, just think about how British business is this morning. When you think about it, the whole economy works on confidence and trust. How can anyone trust a blooming thing? Rachel Reeves, Keir Starmer. or any of this government say. And, you know, every firm I talk to, they're stopping hiring, they're laying people off, they're reducing hours, consumers aren't spending. And this revelation that basic...

we were deliberately misled consistently by the Chancellor in order to raise taxes, to increase welfare bills, which is really the story of this. This is completely unseemly. The Conservatives want the Financial Conduct Authorities to look into what she did. That won't work because anything like that frankly takes years. You know, some big investigation into market movements. What I'm saying is that we have something in public life called the Nolan Principles.

And these apply particularly to ministers. And they are to act with honesty, openness and integrity. There is no way, in my view, that Rachel Reeves passes this test. So I've asked the Laurie Magnus, who's in charge of the ethics committee, to investigate it. And frankly, this is something that could be done very, very quickly. It's really interesting, Nigel, isn't it? Because there's no doubt...

The thieves and Starmer are joined at the hip. I mean, one of the things that's come out of the show this morning is people are saying blatantly there was no black hole. Blatantly you have lied to the British public, Parliament, business, whatever, to achieve something. And what that achievement, well, I don't call it an achievement, is essentially, and I was abroad last week, but basically what you're saying as a government now is to go to work, pay your tax, be aspirational, pay for your kids.

save That's off the table. Now, what's really important is if you're feckless and reckless, keep procreating. And we're not talking about the genuine people because we're all happy to pay and we should absolutely continue that. But we're not prepared anymore to be gamed by...

It was not a career choice, was it, to sign on? It was supposed to be a safety net. And that is the message they're sending. And that is dangerous, isn't it? Because the silent majority, they won't have that, Nigel. They won't have that anymore. No way.

No, and it starts, you know, it starts early now, doesn't it? Because we diagnose kids with ADHD. We've learned this morning that if you get that diagnosis, now there is no compulsion to even attend school. I mean, you just can't believe what's going on here. You know, if you get somebody in their teens and you tell them they're a victim, the likelihood is they'll stay a victim for the rest of their lives, living on benefits. And we can't afford to go on like this. It is an absolute joke.

People I meet say, look, we get up at five o'clock in the morning, we go to work, but the people next door get up at midday, smoke dope, and they've got as much money as we've got. It is so unfair. How is that as a concept in a society? Listen... We all know you've done it. I've done it. Everybody's done it. We got up. The alarm clock brigade, that's what you did. You wanted to inspire your kids. You wanted to... This... This...

cap on children, by the way. I'd love to know what you think about this. I mean, I did this years ago on my show and people were going, how can you say that? Because we shouldn't be rewarding, shelling out child after child. Your children are your responsibility. When I saw Rachel Rees going, we...

don't want children in poverty. Well, if you can't afford children, stop bloody having them. Well, and the problem with that, though, is this. I mean, if you've got a young working couple both earning average incomes, I don't mind them. getting some form of tax credit to help them. No, OK. But the problem with lifting the two-child cap is that over 80% of it will go to people who are unemployed or foreign.

born nationals there are nearly a third of a million families foreign born nationals who will benefit massively from this uptick in child benefit and that is absolutely monstrous and wrong Look, we've got major problems in this country, and what we need is a government to be straight with us, to be honest with us. And what we've got is a chancellor. Perhaps she thought she was playing a clever game. She's been found out.

I'm not always a big fan of the Office of Budget Responsibility, but they've blown the lid, haven't they? Just a bit. They've literally blown the lid. I mean, talk about... How long, then, in your experience, right? Because they are inextricably linked by the hit, really. How long do you think both of them have?

They'll be gone before Christmas. I can't see us surviving this. It's going to be very difficult to see us surviving this. A lot will depend on the mood of the Labour backbenches. Because on the one hand, they were happy. that she was increasing welfare. But on the other, they want to keep their seats at the next election. And they're panicking over this.

Not, by the way, because of Jeremy Corbyn. What a shambles that was. At least that brought a smile to our face over the weekend. Is it your party or my party? It's not your party. It's not my... What a load of old... I can't even have that discussion. Have you seen some of the clips? Have you seen some of the clips? epic.

I mean, honestly, I'm a non-binary, transphobic, anti-comrade, and we're all going, yeah, right, that's almost as mad as that. Give me a line on Zach Palancey, by the way. We've never spoken about this. I found out last week that... One of his deputies is Rachel Millward, who in fact lives in, I don't know if you know this, Crowborough in East Sussex, where the locals came out and went, we don't want 600 migrants, it's not fair. And she wrote the letter supporting that.

despite the fact the Green Party's slogan is refugees are welcome. And when she was asked, Nigel, she said, no, they wouldn't be safe in leafy Sussex. Unbelievable. Yeah, I mean, unbelievable. She also claimed, by the way, Rachel Bell, she also claimed...

Well, of course, a lot of these people who are coming are doctors, are surgeons. Well, I don't think so. I think rather more are goat herders, if you want the honest truth about who's actually coming into the country. It's unbelievable. You have to have trust. in government you might not believe every single word they say but what has been done in the run-up to this budget is monstrous and remember this everybody in the labor manifesto they said taxes would need to rise by eight

That was in the manifesto just 17 months ago. Already, they've risen by 68 billion. Eight times. And we are now being taxed to hell. The incentives for business, again, business being hit again with dividend taxes. And the exodus from our country is all too real. And it isn't just wealthy non-doms. The Tories got rid of most of them, stupidly.

The naivety of that is, Nigel, that anybody of aspiration that builds a small business or has savings is going to look at this government and go, I'm not going to live here. And then the exchequer loses that tax. Well, that's right. And the other thing that's happening is our young...

30-somethings are leaving, and they're off to America, Australia, Dubai. But the other thing that's extraordinary, the number of people who came from Poland, who came from Romania, they stayed here, worked here, they got British citizenship. They're all going back to their own countries. I mean, it's almost nearly 700,000 people last year emigrated from the UK. And that's why the net migration figure was lower than expected at 200,000. Still.

Still, you know, over 800,000 people came, and goodness knows who they were. But the exodus in the country, the brain drain, the loss of talent, and as you rightly say, you know... Consequently, the loss of tax revenue. I mean, this is a disaster. And I think whether Reeves goes in the short term, I don't know. But I stick by what I said back at our party conference when I saw you there. I stick by what I said.

There is going to be a major fiscal event. And I think the general election will come years before 2029. Can I just give you a chance to say two things? Because, Nigel Farage, I'd like your definition quickly of when you really know it's all over. And I'm going to suggest it's this moment. Rachel Reeves, this is just... flashed up.

The BBC's now having a go. Rachel Reeve misled the BBC in the run-up to the budget. The Corporation's political editor Chris Mason has just said he concluded that Miss Reeves withheld vital information from voters when she laid...

the ground for tax rises. Nigel Farage, when the BBC come for you, you're not doing great, are you? No, you're not. And the BBC should know about misleading. They've been doing it for decades. So if they've called it out, then I tell you what, for Chris Mason to say that... That is a big pitch. For the BBC's political editor to come out and say that the BBC was misled, that is a very big moment.

I know you're busy. I've got to play this because Christian says you'll love it. This is Joe on markets. Very quickly, go. Morning, Jezza. Just in regards to Rachel Reeves. and the black hole and her playing the markets i have actually been following banking shares quite closely recently and i have been thinking to myself how come they're going up so could this actually be bigger than what we think and certain people also knew

that there wasn't a deficit or anything and therefore they've been buying shares and uh cracking on as normal while everyone else has been selling them cheaply nigel well never underestimate the ability of corruption to happen in government i mean remember that some of rishi's team actually bet on an early general election hours before he announced it. Yeah, I mean, I do take the point that there was supposed to be a special tax going on banks. Remember, it was briefed and briefed and briefed.

And it didn't happen. So, yes, someone somewhere did very well. Adam, thanks. Cheers. It's really good. And you must be, before you shoot up, you must be feeling very sorry this morning again for Starmer because his anti-corruption minister overnight has been facing two years jail in Bangladesh for corruption, Nigel Farage. I mean, you just, you know, I mean...

You know, some weeks the editors of Private Eye must sit down and think, what can we do to satirise politics? Well, they barely need to think this week, do they? Mate, I don't think we've come in here any morning and not been given just like, you know, the best lines. Listen, really good to have you on my... My friend, thank you so much indeed. Nigel Farage, leader of reform. The home of common sense. This is Tor.

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