How this brand junkie helps businesses discover their true purpose

I love that word brand junkie, by the way. Having created brand strategies and creative campaigns for more than 300 brands around the globe. He's worked with big brands such as EverBank, Delsea Luggage, Red Hot and Blue, Denny's, Enterprise Rent A Car, and CARFAX, just to name a few. He has built 4 successful advertising strategic branding agencies, and his 4th one now known as WM Harper, which is an integrated full service creative agency infusing companies with the ability to realize their full potential through a creative problem solving and team unification process. Please welcome Bill Harper.

Bill, thank you so much for being with me here today, man. Really

And just reading your your profile content, and it was very well worded and very intelligent. But what caught my attention was your actual, profile. I think it's the top profile banner, and you guys look like actors, you and your management team. Tell me a little bit about that photo. So what was the the what was your thought behind that before you took it?

And we just sort of laughed about that, and we said, alright. Why don't we why don't we shoot something that way? Like, it would just be fun to sort of promote it as sort of the modern mad men, you know, of Raleigh, and that was kind of how we approached it. Yeah. And so we we just sort of had fun with this idea.

And so on set, one of my art directors at the time was a photographer in his second life. And, you know, we got to talking about it, and he came out and sort of worked with us to get everybody's wardrobe just the way he wanted it and was working with us on a couple lighting sequences that he liked and styles. And we you know, it just became a fun thing. And so the next thing you know, we all look like we're, you know, the next, the next TBS show or something. I don't know.

It just cracked us up. So we really liked it. And surprisingly, when we put it up, we got a lot of really positive feedback from it. So we just sort of ran with it, and, and it's it's gotten us a lot of conversation, which we enjoy.

And that's great as well because it seems like and me being a branding person myself, and, I mean, you talked about this a little bit over coffee, but it consistency is so important about branding. I'm sure you can agree with that. Right?

I thought the work Penafarina had done was super interesting, and I just thought designing sheet metal would be, like, the most fun thing ever. And it kinda brought together a bunch of different things that I had. So I had a a math background that was pretty heavy, and I had an art background that was pretty heavy. And I had a theater and a writing thing that was going on. And so I had a bunch of these disparate things that I really, really enjoyed.

And I thought at the time that, engineering was what I really wanted to do. And when I got in and realized just, for me, it was limiting because it was so linear in the way that they were thinking about problems. And what I really kinda came to find was that I was seeking something that would allow me to pull together a need for developing business and a need for to problem solve on a creative front and a need for presentation and need to kinda weave all those things together. And for a little bit, I wasn't quite sure how to get to that. And I literally was on campus one day.

I had transitioned out of the engineering school into the business school and was in the middle of sort of moving towards a business degree. And I walked through a building on campus that I had never been on, and it was a visual communications class and they were making presentations that day for one of their design projects. And it was riveting. Like, I couldn't stop watching. And so I sat in the hallway for 3 hours watching this class go down where all these people trying to explain in front of a panel why they had made the decisions that they had made, how they thought that it was going to influence the business, what things they thought it would open in terms of potential new revenue streams and so forth

And as I began to get interested in it, some of the people that dad knew were kind enough to sit down with me and sort of tell me what the reality of advertising was, and it just kinda got into me. And the next thing I know, I was I was madly in love with it. Now in the beginning, I didn't really understand the brand side of it that way. And I don't think a lot of us that are coming out of school do in the in the front half. You know, we're worried about our craft.

Right? So I was an art director, and I was worried about whether or not the designs I was doing were interesting or or forward thinking enough or what have you. But then after a while, as you begin to see the layering of how this really is about the development of business, this whole new world opens up. And then as that continues to mature, I think you find this really, really rich, challenge in bringing together how does communication work internally and externally together. What happens if you go and you put a brand strategy in place that doesn't actually match against the company's idea of what it stands for?

And so this this whole thing just becomes this infinitely deep puzzle that is tremendously rewarding to work on, and I can't imagine doing anything else. I mean, it's just been a phenomenal experience.

And, and the thing is is, people when they think of branding, they just think of corporate identity, like logo design and things. But well, I I kinda want you to talk about that to to the audience a bit is there's a lot of moving parts in branding. It's not just design. Right?

And so this thing that has to be true to who they are and relevant to the audience that's outside and somehow uniquely different than what the competitive set is offering becomes the touchstone for everything that they do. And that's really where the depth and the richness out of these kinds of things come. So we're talking about helping them to develop something at the DNA level of the company and then bringing that up through internal communications because a brand is every single contact point that happens. So it's not just how you market out to a group of potential or existing consumers. It's about how you reach out to people who you want to potentially be a part of the team as employees or if you are looking for channel partners or if you're looking to engage with 3rd party in somehow.

The fact that the brand has a torch that is sort of the guiding light for it When it is in place properly, those brands bring people to them. They're not marketing at them. They're they're bringing them around a single idea. And the people who come to that idea are sharing that journey themselves. So it's no longer paying for people to come and be a part of it.

Those people are taking that brand messaging and that brand strategy, and they're turning it into something that they live in their own lives as well. And that's that's really where it gets exciting.

And even when we started, I'm telling you, man, it was so hard to identify, especially as a startup years ago, it was so hard to know truly who we who we are, who we were. You know what I mean? It's like

And regardless of whether it was independently or with partners, each time we've we've, at some point, had to reach out and sort of soundboard it against some other people because you're so close to it. And and there's so much about what you want it to mean and how you're trying to have it be an honest representation of the things that you value and that you put faith in and how you want to conduct business on a day to day basis. It's incredibly hard not to get kind of, you know, as we sort of say internally caught up in the in your underwear. Right? About trying to say something that is meaningful to everybody without being self serving.

Because really and, you know, we talk a lot about this with our clients. The foremost important words in any brand's development is it's not about you. Right? Like, nobody cares why I'm passionate about branding. The you know, they are interested in, is there a nugget in what he's saying that's helpful, or is there something about what's going on with this brand or that brand or this company or that company that somehow helps me further my journey?

And for the brands that realize that their real value is being a catalyst for other people to achieve what they want to achieve as opposed to trying to push an agenda on them, they are the ones that become these massive brands that we all come to revere. And so I think it's really important that we as business owners sit down and go through that same thing. And to be honest, that's a lot of what we do on the front end of our client relationships is making sure that for those companies that either didn't have a chance to do that on the front end or have sort of lost touch with it, that we reconnect them or define or redefine what that brand messaging is so that they can they can begin to grow properly against that that value set.

I know everything. I know everything. I can't tell you how many times we've sat in the back of a focus group room with a client and watch their mouth hit the floor. And they're looking at the same thing that they've always looked at, but for some reason, they missed the most obvious things. And, again, I think that goes back to the same thing you were talking about a moment ago about how we all get so close to our own brand.

We kind of have a hard time seeing the forest for the trees. Right? So, I think the first thing that we do is we we silo independently. And we say, number 1, let's talk to the brand as the brand. And even more than that, let's talk to the individual leadership components that are responsible for delivering the brand consistently through the company.

So a lot of times and this is, like, just an easy way to kinda think about this. But I'll walk into a company and I'll say, what do you do? And they'll say, oh, well, we make the world's best one bedroom house. Right? But as you start talking to them, one person thinks it's a it's a log cabin, and one person thinks it's a bungalow, and another thinks it's a 1 bedroom condo, and another person.

Now if you ask them around the room, right, they all they're all saying the same thing. They all sound like they're in harmony. But what you come to find out is that they're actually not and that they have somewhere along the path lost that connectivity between each other. And typically, that's a result of 2 things. Number 1, most people don't think to talk about it that way.

And number 2, as growth occurs, it has a tendency to come in starts and stops. And when, you know, you hire 5 or 10 or 50 new people in a year because you suddenly grew, typically, that's because you have a real need to manage the business. And the first priority is getting those people to be functional, and the first priority behind that is making sure that they understand their role. And that has nothing to do with brand. That has to do with what they do in order to continue to service the growth needs of the company.

And so it's not hard to see how people either never were in touch with it in the 1st place or simply haven't had a chance to get back in touch with it as they've come along the path.

But he really you know, the insight he had and the way that he codified the start with why concept was a really great way to explain what most of these companies are missing. And I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the majority of the reason that companies are started are someone who firmly believes that they can do something better. So at the at the end of the day, each company begins with a a person or a small group of people that kind of, you know, shakes hands together and says, alright. That's it. We're gonna go do x.

And the very next thing that they tend to think of is if this is what we're gonna do, then the very next thing we gotta figure out is how we're gonna do it. And then after that, it's gonna be, well, who do we need to hire in order to do it? And then somewhere in the distant future way down the path is who we're doing it for. And it's not a it's not a malevolent thing. It's not like they're starting and saying, well, I'm I'm purposely not taking the consumer or the end user or however you wanted to find the customer into into account, it's that the needs of the business that press on the front end say, in order for this thing to pay for my mortgage and the food I need into my family and whatever else that happens to be in the reality of the person starting the company, I'd better get myself in motion quick.

And then as the company spools up, hey. Guess what? I really didn't have time to that. I was gonna get back to that later or I kinda half did it along the path and whatever. Now the thing that's so funny is the companies succeed despite this.

Right? So there's a need out there and that need promotes through business growth. What I think companies fail to realize is how much easier for them it is and how much more efficient it is and how much money they're leaving on the table ultimately when they don't take these things into account. And I see this from, you know, entrepreneurial businesses that are their first one or two people and or just looking for seed money or doing, you know, whatever they're doing to try to get their company off the ground. And I see it in mid level companies, and I see it in in very large companies that I wouldn't I wouldn't want to share who they were, but to say that they exist.

But But the bottom line is is that this is a shared issue for companies across the board, and I think it's really the job and the responsibility of branding agencies to come in and make sure that this fundamental piece is in place. I'm sure you have worked with a company that has worked with an agency that worked in a silo and didn't get that kind of information that comes up with a great campaign. And the campaign lasts 3 or 4 months because nobody internally believes in it or is willing to support it or it's not real. Maybe they were able to carry it off for a couple of of months as a business model, but then they realized that, you know, hey. This really isn't who we are, and they revert back to what they had been in the past or they change tack and they they come to something else.

All that time, all that effort, and all that money was wasted simply because they didn't go back to the beginning and say, hey. Define the, you know, the shoes you're standing in. Let's make sure that we understand what it is that you intend to be and why you care about it. So we're aligning you around some people that also care about the same thing.

You know, understanding your motives and intents behind doing something. If it's not strong enough, then you might wanna look somewhere else. And I think even Simon talks about that is really understanding your motives. What's the real reason behind it?

And, you know, he was in a corner office, and he'd been there forever. And there was picture up on the wall with him wearing, you know, Buddy Holly glasses and what whatever. And, I mean, like, that was his company. He had been there his entire career. But now things have changed, and the needs of the, you know, millennial generation that are coming up and the way that they're looking at what they want to get from the time that they're spending at work is different, and their demands on how they will work and what they want from that company and how willing they are to be dedicated to them and how dedicated they require those companies to be back, it's it's not about a paycheck.

It's not about a title. It's about saying, hey. I wanna do something valuable with my time. I wanna be recognized as having been a part of something that I actually cared about. It's not enough for me to just go get a check.

And study after study is showing that these, you know, this group is leaving jobs for jobs with of greater meaning. And so there has never been a time. I I don't I let me let me I I don't like saying things that way because they sound very, they sound very ridiculous in my opinion. There there has it has always been so that people want to have value in how they spend their time. Perhaps this is one of those times in history where people are recognizing and and either willing to honor it or being forced to honor it more than they have in the past.

Why don't we say it that way? But at the end of the day, the demand of the employee is such that, hey. I don't just wanna come in and sit and, you know, shine a boat a seat with my butt. What I really wanna do is I wanna come in and know that I'm contributing to something. And in order for that to be the case, it can't be, hey.

We wanna grow by 15% this year because we grew by 12% last year. It's got to be that there's something behind it. And I've found that once you release that thing into the company, a lot of pretty amazing things happen that they didn't anticipate were gonna happen and that aren't typically associated with brand development or advertising or strategy. All of a sudden, people who don't align with it within management suddenly become very apparent. People who don't align with it in terms of business development or initiatives that they thought they were working on suddenly don't seem quite right.

And the shiny object syndrome that really disrupts the efficiency and effectiveness of companies on such a profound level is really kinda put back in its box. And that's a massive, massive advantage to these businesses. And so, you know, I just can't get behind anything as much as I do this. I I have seen it be a profound influencer and benefitter to companies as they have gone through the process.

Or do you feel digital is essentially completely completely taking over or maybe a combination of both? Is that what you guys kind of incorporate? Or how how does that how do you incorporate that?

Right? And everybody used it. And because everybody used it, its efficiency dropped off. Now everybody's using digital. And when we do a tailored direct mail piece, and I'm not just talking about a postcard.

I mean, I'm talking about something that has a greater engagement ratio with it, but something that is a mailer device. Our return numbers are through the roof. I mean, much much higher than any kind of traditional number that you would have gotten back well into the teens and often in the twenties in terms of return for traffic back to, in many cases, a digital environment where it can be tracked, such as a website or landing page or such and such. But, regardless, the point is the focus needs to be on the idea always, and I think that's something that's really gotten lost in this era of digital plus specialist plus, you know, most efficient by hiring the people that do it best. What's been happening, and it's really interesting, is the average number of agencies a business has has exponentially grown due to this ideology that everybody needs to have the specialist within this discipline, the brand is what suffers.

So a a CMO that now has to keep control of 7 or 8 different specialist agencies, all of whom are vying for their time, all of whom are vying to show their value, all of whom are vying for what piece of the pie they can sort of justify taking from the rest of those groups. They're not working in concert. And so what happens is that the brand becomes diluted. And at the end of the day, the the company begins acting more and more like a commodity, and we have watched this happen over and over and over again. And it leads to detrimental impacts financially on the growth potential of those companies.

So I don't think I don't think that the world has changed to a digital world in the sense that, you know, digital is king now and and you might as well just pull out a radio or outdoor or direct or anything else because of it. I think that people who are saying that are a lot like people when television came out that said that radio was dead and would never be there again and so forth and so on. I mean, this this cycle has shown to repeat itself throughout history over and over again, and equilibrium is always established. So it is true that this is a phenomenally effective one to one mechanism and group, interest generating mechanism, I think that, few people have figured out how to use it effectively, appropriately for a length of time that actually show long term return on investment.

And I know data is kind of no whole another topic, but data is so important now. You need and and you kinda mentioned that that you you did this targeted, direct mail campaign, and you got you saw the numbers. Right? And you you're getting this data and and metrics back, and then you I'm assuming you probably, adapted those campaigns accordingly to to that target audience and who it was working for. Right?

I just don't think that it is the only answer just because it's hot. And in fact, I think that groups that remember their fundamental truths about brand and idea and development of a a larger cause and a long term strategy, are the ones that that really benefit. You know, Gary Vaynerchuk talks a lot about, you know, the long game the long game. And I I think it's interesting that that gained so much traction with the younger generations that are watching him because it seems novel. But to folks that have been around where digital wasn't always the case and you couldn't get an answer in, you know, 2 and a half seconds from somebody simply because somebody had a mobile phone that dinged when you send it out, it doesn't mean that everything has to be viewed in the eyes of, you know, 15 minutes as an eternity.

I think the long game is just as important now as it ever was and especially in light of all of the frantic frenetic energy that's kind of running around the social space, businesses have gotten away from that, and the ones that are returning to it are the ones that are gonna succeed moving forward.

It's it's why don't I say it this way? It's a different kind of an animal to to shepherd. Right? So on the one hand, you've got probably 1 or 2 people that are making all of the decisions. There's no history in the company.

It's a big blank slate. And so they're trying to figure out, well, what would I want it to be if it could be anything versus a company that has a lot of established time behind it is maybe 40 or 50 years old and has a key management team that's sitting in the room of, you know, 7 to 12 people and is trying to say, who were we again? So, you know, that company has to figure out what it's all about in terms of its legacy and its history. And the the young company has to figure out what it ultimately wants that legacy and history to be. And so they're coming at it from different points, but they're they're trying to arrive at the same point on the hill.

So I think the process is not really radically different. It's more where you place the focus while you're going through those exercises to help them see what they need to see in order to gain the right perspective to define themselves properly.

Dominatitude, which I I like it, but I'm like, I don't wanna say it on the podcast. I'm gonna have but, dominatitude. Okay. So it it it and I know, is that part of like, for example, these these buzzwords and these these, you know, little keywords integrated in in your website and and overall branding, that's something I noticed that makes you guys different. And I'm like, man, you know, a lot of companies need to do that.

There's there's so much there's such a lack of and I this is my opinion. This is not for everybody, but I've I noticed a lot of companies are are not being as creative. They're just so to the book. You know what I mean? They don't wanna be, they don't wanna be different, like, having these like a buzzword, like dominatitude, which I think is great. So what's the the background behind that keyword? And how how did that kind of start?

But I think the big thing that's been the downfall of digital is that there's so much information and looking at your, competitive set is so easy to do that they compare themselves all the time. And that's a massive detriment to the brand because what winds up happening is is they homogenize. Right? The more they look at the other brand, the more they start comparing themselves to them, the more they start following them, the more they start duplicating them. And what winds up happening is they look the same.

They sound the same. They project the same, and they start fighting on these little teeny incremental differences of a feature or benefit that ultimately can't be sustainable. And so we spend a lot of time in this notion of dominatitude and saying, listen. Stop thinking about that. That's not that that is such a detraction.

Every minute you spend wasting paying attention to the rest of of the, you know, the competitive set, the category in that way. Now, of course, you have to be aware of what they're doing, but there's a huge distance between being aware of what they're doing and making sure that you're mindful of it and actually leveling or measuring yourself against them. And most companies have forgotten that. And that's the way that leadership happens. Leadership doesn't come from me doing.

Leadership comes from standing apart and in order to do that, you have to be quiet in your environment long enough to think this is where I want to go rather than trying to fight off the constant noise of this is where we are. And I think, you know, that's what that term was about, and it's a big part of what we talk with our clients about. You know, this is, this is sort of our our key point of difference given a name. And so we we you know, we're currently working on a book to bring that same concept out because I think it's so forgotten, and it's such a critical point of business. I mean, those leaders of tomorrow are the ones that are gonna have to learn how to stand apart and stand alone for what they believe in and bring people together around that belief.

And there's not a lot of companies right now that are willing to stand out and do that and have their own voice. And so dominatitude is about helping them kinda get quiet inside, and it's almost like a martial art. It's a discipline. Right? It's a it's a, a methodology to help them structure how to do that effectively.

Just like, for example, read doing an app or a website or something, you don't wanna look at them and say, oh, but they did it this way. It's like, listen. You know, we wanna come up with a we wanna get our own element here and and strategize and and and try to listen and and feel like what what do you actually feel you wanna portray on your website? What makes you, you guys, who you are? And for me, when I'm in my own element and I'm, you know, and I'm and I'm just listening kind of just to the world and I'm listening to what I need to do.

And and because there's a lot of clutter out there, Bill, you know that. There's a lot of noise out there.

I'm I believe in what I'm gonna I believe in my message and believe in what I'm saying. And if if I can touch somebody's life and help somebody through even if I just get 20 or 30 likes in a post or or whatever, maybe I helped 1 or 2 or 3 people. I I that's more important to me. And then I'm gonna get a lot more engagement if I keep doing that throughout the years. And that's helped our company.

So can you talk a little bit about that? Is that kind of behind that dominated too? Is is just getting your own element and and trying to be different yourself, not just trying to compare it to others.

What a group of people that, like, truly get the mystique of what they've created. You know? And the founder tells this wonderful story about how he looked out on the the office one day, and there was a new person on the team. And the rest of the team was hazing him, basically, for you know, telling him he had to go and get his driver's license done in the in the geek glasses and, you know, in string tie. Right?

And so at that point, he realized that it had become its own culture. Like, now he had started something that had taken on a life of its own, and it had its own pulse, and it had its own its own, you know, life really, and I think that's what people are kinda looking for. You know, they're looking for these these people who are willing to stand out and stand up, and those people, because they can't help it typically, wind up becoming leaders of companies and groups. And for the ones that are willing to sort of share that difference and being unique with other people, people get excited about that. And they wanna rally behind it, and they wanna join it.

And it's it's, it's an amazing thing to witness, and it's a it's an even more amazing and kinda humbling thing to be a part of helping to create on a company's behalf.

But for the majority of us, that's not the case. For the majority of us, it doesn't matter what you were doing yesterday. You could have been senior VP, owner of a company, president, whatever. If you sell that company or you leave that job and you go hang your own shingle, you know, you might have been senior VP on Monday, but come Tuesday 8 AM. Guess what?

You're you're Bob. Right? So you've gotta start all over again. And the 1st couple of years, getting people to believe in you is what it takes. And you and I have talked about this before of, you know, there's kind of a sickness, right, that that entrepreneurs have and a willingness to stand in the in the, you know, river of negativity that comes your way.

And you kinda you kinda do. You kinda get off on it. You're like, hey. You know what? I can rise above this current that's pushing against me, telling me that it it can't happen, and I can push something into existence that didn't exist before I decided to do it.

And I think that's really the big challenge. Right? It's the fact that while you want to be strong to what you believe and you wanna be, dedicated to the things that you wanna share and creating a culture and the rest, I think a lot of us get get sidetracked by how am I gonna make the car payment? How am I gonna, you know, how am I gonna make rent this month or this year? How am I gonna hire that first employee or whatever?

And, really, there is there is such a mentor network available to people now. The Internet and this is one of the great things about the Internet. You can reach out and find somebody who knows more than you do about anything anytime of day or night. And that's really one of the beautiful things about it. And I have found that not only experience shortcuts that a little bit, but being able to reach out and find a mentor and somebody who can give you some input or, you know, even even just be a an ear on the days where that part of the journey is so rough is a real help.

But I think, you know, people who have the fortitude to stand in that and are willing to see that long game aspect of the business and are willing to say, you know what? Overnight success takes 10 years no matter what, and I'm gonna put my head down and commit to doing this thing because I know the payoff is gonna be amazing and the journey is gonna be something that will will have made my lifetime, you know, incredible is is what it's all about. And, it's the first couple of years just they're they're just rotten. They always are. They're

I'm gonna be he's like, I'm gonna be upfront with you. He said, the first 5 years was freaking hell. Yeah. Like, it's just all rejection up and down every day. You get you get a client. They fire you the next day. They have they get their their they just have this buyer's remorse type thing. He's like, it's just insane. It's just hell.

Yes. We're gonna do it, but then suddenly drags for 6 months and doesn't. Or somebody doesn't believe you or you're having to get a client that's actually below what you know you're really capable of, but you gotta do it because that's the way that you're gonna stair step up to the next. We you know, I kind of refer to it as the ramen noodle phase because it's like being in college in that respect. Right?

It's like you've got no money. You've got no time. You're trying to figure out what the hell you're doing. And you just you feel like you're eating, you know, like peanut butter crackers every day. And that's just how it feels.

And I can't tell you how many other entrepreneurs along the journey. Some of whom are in the 1st 2 or 3 years. Some of them are 8, 9 years or 15 years or 16 years. All of them have days where they're like, you know, thank you for just being another entrepreneur that I can kinda vent to for 5 minutes, and then I can kinda recharge and get myself back into the game. But it's it's just the way that it is.

You know, the difference between owning a company and and working at one is standing in that current, and the current never really stops. You know, I think, you know, probably Tony Robbins at his 5 or 6,000,000,000 whatever his net worth is at this point and however many companies he's got, I'm sure wakes up some days and is like, oh my god. What a headache. Like, come on. Now I've got 500 people I've gotta manage today, and I don't feel like doing it.

You know? So and so is doing such and such, and, you know, my rent just got raised over here. And insurance payments changed over there. Policy changed and affected the way that I have to do taxes on this thing or that thing. And all of that is a headache.

But at the same time, you couldn't be more alive with what you're doing. You are 100% in touch with the pulse of everything that's happening. Every single decision that's being made, you're you're somehow engaged in, somehow being influenced by, and it's the best thing going. And for the people that have the fortitude to do it, you know, I applaud them because it is a, it's a commitment. You know, once you stepped off the path of, you know, I'm gonna do a good job, and then I'm gonna get rewarded, and then I'm gonna get promoted, and then I'm gonna do a good job, and then I'm gonna get rewarded, and then I'm gonna get promoted.

You know, once you've stepped off that path, it's, it's a rare bird that goes back to it. That's, it's it's a different way of looking at the world.

Right? It's the purpose behind it. What's the motive, the intent behind what you guys are doing and what you're trying to accomplish. And overcoming and just persevering and not giving up just gives you I think it shifts your mind. Once you once you, you know, overcome a roadblock, however you overcome it, it's you just get that much stronger and that's and you get that much more intelligent.

And, you know, that's an exciting thing and especially for people who have been in the company, you know, 20, 30 years to suddenly realize that there's a whole new place that they can go, you know, watching that light come back into their eyes is a pretty amazing and phenomenal thing. Right? So they're sitting there and they're thinking, yeah, I kinda done all that I'm gonna do here and I'm kinda cranking away, and now it's just a matter of efficiency. And we we worked with a company one time that had been in business for 48 years, 2nd generation, and, you know, they were looking for a new agency, and I was working as a consultant at the at the agency at the time. And when they came in, they said, you're never gonna beat last year's sales.

You're never gonna do it. We just don't wanna lose what we had. When we gave them that 19 a half percent that next year, they were floored floored. And they had been looking at their brand the same way, and all we did was we just turned it just a little bit. You know?

It was like, well, you're looking at it this way. What if we just turned it just to touch? And the second that we did that, they started growing again, and they hadn't grown in, you know, 5, 6 years. So, I mean, it it's I think that's where the real juice of all of this is. Right?

Is in taking a look at it, and it's not just strategy, like, how are we gonna spend your money the best way? It's how are we gonna connect with people the best way, and how are we gonna do that thing that you were talking about a little bit ago where you're sharing something through the experience that either empowers someone or makes them feel better about a situation or changes their emotional state for the better, however that is defined, whether they feel it's a competitive edge or it solves a problem or it does whatever. And the only way to get through to them on that level is to make sure that you're adhering something that you share as a value between the brand and the people who support that brand and the consumers who who engage with it and buy from it.

And I think the notion of going off, for a what if session is really great where you just say, okay. Everybody in the room phones off, hats off. Right? There is there are no dumb ideas here. There's no none of that.

Throw something out there and let's see if we can make it work. And so the question then is not about saying, well, yeah, we tried that and it doesn't work or that's a dumb idea or, yeah, Bob always talks about that or whatever. It's it's about saying, hey. You know, if this is the reason that we exist and this is what we set out to do, have we done everything with that that we can? And if not, and I have yet to see a company that has, how how much bigger can we make it?

You know, I think Disney is such a phenomenal company, not just because of all that they've done, but because by declaring to the world we're the happiest place on earth, they have set such an insanely high bar for delivery that every single person involved with that brand from the CEO to the kid wearing, you know, the the costume on, you know, on a 95 degree day down in Florida or California is responsible. Right? They're responsible. They're a part of thinking proactively, what can we do to make this happen? I wish more businesses would do this.

I really do. We spend so much of our time trying to help companies see how there's value in that, and I think that they've really missed out on exploration that would keep their teams engaged and keep their teams talking with one another. I mean, it's a it's a it's a really positive experience for most of those people who aren't necessarily given that kind of creative input or that kind of responsibility to help the business grow, to be given a seat at that table is good every way that it can be. And it typically yields some amazing new ideas for the development of the company.

So that's that. How do I define success? I define success as being content with what you do with your time. I think, you know, the common denominator for all of us is the fact that we only have so much time in a day, and you wanna do it with something that you're proud and pleased and excited to have done. And so I would define success not in terms of money or in terms of achievement in that way, but in the sense of having brought together a team that is happy to spend time together and that you yourself are enjoying the way that you spend your time.

What was your third one though? I missed that.

You know? I think a lot of people kinda get this romanticized idea of what entrepreneurialism is. If you're not willing to bloody your knuckles a little bit and to get calluses on your hands, then it's probably not the thing for you. I'm reading a book now that talks about intrepreneurs and how they are people who know that entrepreneurs need the same kind of dedicated people behind them, but who don't necessarily wanna do it themselves. They have the same kind of drive.

They have the same sort of thing, but they wanna be in support of it. And so I think it's you know, I think, again, our society places a lot of weight on this notion of you're either an entrepreneur or you're not, But there is this beautiful space in the middle that are these people that are intrepreneurs, that are supportive people who have just as much enthusiasm for sort of conquering but just don't necessarily wanna do it on under their own roof. And so, I think that, defining entrepreneurship is really about recognizing who you are and what kinda makes your heart sing in terms of how you spend your time and then and then go in and doing it.