Para-Round Table Volume: One Featuring: Brandon Alvis, Eric Freeman Sims, Mustafa Gatollari and Tyler Terry

He was cold, cold. That was the navel. He was cold. Mine, what's going on up there? Could be the most important event in history. Now I have to come and destroyer worlds, I said. I hope this is close to Hell's all ever again. Hello and welcome to the Tales from the Dark podcast. I'm your host Bomb here with my lovely cost Brittany. Hey, yeah, this what's up britty Brittany? How you doing? I'm good? Other than that voice crack, I'm good. Well,

I threw you a little sweet nothing in there. We have an exciting episode today. This is something that do you know, normally you would hear podcasts like we've been in. This has been in the works for months. It's been in the work for about eight days. We had this this weird little brain idea to do this paranormal roundtable. I got a hold of Eric Freeman Sims from the Unseen Paranormal podcast. He's like, hey, I'll put this together, and in true Eric fashion, he put it together in record time.

Yes, he really did so. The only thing that I want to go through real fast. If you guys join the Facebook group over it Tells from the Dark. We today we put about a thing from amal paranormalitymag dot com, where you can go and you can vote for your favorite paranormal podcast. Now, we don't do very much of this, but it would mean the world to us if we take two seconds join the group and vote and also joined the group. You guys are currently missing out on dank memes,

conversations, show updates, you name it. That's where it's that is over at the Talesman Dark Facebook group. Yes it is. So with that being said, miss Britany, I think we just need to give all these gentlemen a call and just let the chaos begin. Let's do it all right, So we are joined. Thank you guys actually for joining us for our first paranormal roundtable. Tyler Terry is in the studio live for the first time in like a year. So if you guys don't know who Tyler Terry is,

Tyler, why don't you tell everyone a little bit about yourself. Hello, tales from the Dark people. You already know who I am, Tyler Terry. I have been with this little crew for how long have you guys been doing this? Three years now, Almus, three years paranormal enthusiast in general, for since I can remember being allowed to go places by myself, dark

cemeteries and wherever I could sneak into. Filmmaker. Now I guess editor, director, producer Fantom Farm with Tales from the Dark and yeah, that's a discoverer of hay Snake. Well, yeah, don't sound too excited about it, Tyler. Okay. So we're also joined by Eric Freeman Simms, who might be the best podcast host on the side of the Mississippi. I think that the ballot's still out for that. But Eric, how are you, sir? I am good. How are y'all doing today? We're doing well.

So why don't you tell the crowd a little bit about yourself? Yeah, I don't know about the best podcaster. I try, though. You know. I am the host of the Unseen Paranormal podcast. I've been an investigator researcher paranormal for over twenty years now, and I am the main organizer for the Tennessee Hanson Legend X BOO. Very well said. So, mister Brandon Alvis, how are you doing? Thank you for joining us? Tell us a little bit about yourself? Well, first off, thanks for having

me on here. Guys. My name is Brandon Alvis. I'm the founder of the American Paranormal Research Association. Founded the organization in two thousand and six to solely investigate historical locations across the United States. And I've been looking for answers into the possibility of consciousness, consciousness surviving death for a number of years now. So I'm excited to be here and can't wait to talk with you

guys about everything. Now. We're glad to have you and Mustapha got a Lourie, Sir, how are you doing, and tell us a little bit about yourself. My name is Mustapha Getta Laurie. I'm doing just fine. Began researching and investigating the paranormal when I was eighteen years old thirty seven now,

so it's around nineteen years I've been doing this. Opportunity came up to join the team of A and E's Ghost Hunters, and during casting for this beautiful man, Brandon Alvis and we kind of had We've realized that we had very similar ways that we like to work, and now we are producing new shows and programs documenting our paranormal research called Haunted Discoveries. And yeah, I work every day with him to break new ground in the paranormal field, and

it's it's been amazing. I absolutely love that. So now I guess let's just jump right into it. We'll kind of go in the same order, Tyler, what is your most compelling evidence of life after death or the paranormal or whatever we want to call it this week? Because we seem to change our opinion on the title as often as we change our opinion on the subject matter. Well, I'll rehash my kind of history with the paranormal. It's

I'm basically a skeptic, forged out of just experimentation. I got really into ghost hunting with ghost hunters, of course, in the early two thousands. That's when I kind of learned that you can structure it. I kind of grew up, not grew up, but I spent some prime years of my childhood in a house that had some weird activities. So there was kind of

confirmation from the whole family. Some very strange things happened. And my family just has a bunch of crazy stories from down in eastern Kentucky that just always kept me interested and fascinated by these unexplained things. But I would do things like go to the cemetery stand in mausoleums and just ask for things to contact me. And over time, the more things I did, nothing ever happened.

So I just learned to take more of a skeptical approach, where it's like it needs to show itself to me or you know, my criteria are pretty strict. So do I have compelling evidence? Not really so far. Unfortunately. There's one thing that happened back when I was more of a believer. There's a strange phenomenon where I thought. I thought I was going to keep getting evidence because I believed, so I didn't really care about this piece

of audio. I worked at a hotel and left a a quarter in a room that was allegedly haunted for my whole eight hour shift, went and picked it up. When I got it back, this was this was a locked room. I was the only person. I was a night auditor, so I had control. I had the keys to the building and all that. When I got it back, listening to the recorder inside the locked room,

heard the hardware on the dressers jiggling like clinking. So I know we had like gas pipe issues in that building, So I don't know if the building was shaking, that would be pretty extreme and then I heard a noise outside the windows on the second floor. Somebody that I thought thought it sounded like a young girl saying mama. I thought it definitely could have been a cat, but the hardware on the dresser was definitely undeniable. And I have no

idea what happened to the audio clip. I just thought, oh cool, this is what it's going to be like, and I probably recorded over it with something silly. That's the paranormal negative of the group of cat. Yes, I also love Tyler. You were in a documentary. I love that we're still so skeptical yet we caught. I still believe you. I firmly believe this to be some of the best evidence that I've ever seen, and I was a part of. And I still, well, Tyler wasn't.

Tyler wasn't in the room, so that's not standing there right. He doesn't think it was him, So oh fair enough, all right, Well what about you, mister Eric, What do you consider to be compelling evidence or something that's happened to you that really just still stands out in your brain.

For me, it kind of it started when I was a kid, and I've just had so many things happen over the years that are unexplainable, And I call myself a skeptical believer because if I can debunk something it's not being paranormal, then I'm going to try to debunk it anyway that can. There are too many people out there today that just label everything paranormal, and they,

you know, try not to debunk anything. But I just had some crazy experiences, caught some crazy EVPs over the years, and and photos that I can explain. Probably the personal experiences or some of the biggest ones for me. My first experience I remember was when I was around eight years old. I woke up out of a dead sleep in the middle of the night and there was a glowing apparition sending my door and I jumped up and foot

the light on and kind of slammed the door. They kind of scared me because you know, I was a kid, And then just started seeking out the panel when I was a teenager and seeing it, experiencing everything from like I said, footbody apparitions to found them, voices, footsteps and things like that, just up until today, you know, going out and investigating. I've done hundreds of investigations over twenty something years and gone to many many locations,

and so many things. Can't explain one of the biggest if you want a prime example, I guess one of the biggest things when I worked at a nursing home when I started out in my medical career as a nurse tech, and I worked night shift on Alzheimer's lockdown unit, and you had to have a code to get into this part of the building. And this is the oldest part of the building. It had been a nursing home since in nineteen forties. And this is back in the early two thousands when I worked

there, and I worked with two other nurses on the floor. They went to lunch. One night, I was only one there except for all the patients, and everybody's in bed. All the lights are off except for the nurse to station light. And I was going to do around where I would walk around just check them on patients, make sure they're in bed, things

like that nobody's got out of bed falling or anything like that. And I went to walk down one of the hallways and there was a tall, skinny man in a black suit, younger guy sent at the end of the hallway, and I looked at him. He looked at me, he smiled, turned and walked into patient room. And I walked down there because I thought it was a real person that nobody's supposed to be in the building at three

o'clock in the morning. And I got down there and go in the room and turn the light on, and there's nobody in there except for the four patients and they're all women, and they're all on the bed that same place. Used to walk into rooms and see silhouettes sitting in wheelchairs, and then when you trying on the light, there's nobody there. Things like that,

Lots of things like that. When I was younger than several the years of investigating, definitely experienced the stuff me and awesome that Laurence have a lot in commons that tolls anything. We're some fucking haunted people. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah that that dude is a walking He's a paranormal accident to happen. He

is an entity of himself. Yeah. So so what about you, Brandon, what got I mean, we kind of discuss this a little bit when you were on our show, But is there any evidence that sticks out to you that's just this is why I keep doing this. With the exception of the drive to find proof of life after death for lack of a better arm. You know what I'm curious about with Brandon Mustafa is has your best or most compelling evidence happened in the seasons of Haunted Discoveries or this spinoff? Because

I've I've I've watched the interviews of what's your most compelling evidence? Hurts some answer, So I'm curious if it's stuff that right now you can't talk about because it's on the show, if your new kind of tactics or experimentations have brought on new things. Well, i will say that there was one specific moment actually an episode I'm editing right now. I'm taking a break from it

to do this podcast with you guys. But Harriman Hospital in Harriman, Tennessee a place that, obviously, you go to a hospital, there's going to be massive reports of death and ghost stories. I mean, almost every hospital I've been to that's even active, there's always some kind of story associated with

unexplained things taking place amongst the staff. Right it kind of happens. Good friend of mine who was part of Apper for many years, he worked in the morgue at a hospital and talked about all kinds of crazy stuff that would happen when he would transport bodies to the morgue. So we go to Harriman Hospital and we were lucky enough to take doctor Harry Klore with us, who's the first person in history to receive two PhD simultaneously, a brilliant scientific mind,

a living historical figure. He's our resident scientist and he's been working with us closely on the paramil photon theory and us trying to collect photonic events in these set up haunted locations with the EMCCD camera. And this is a guy in doctor Clore who is a skeptic, but in the classical sense of not a nonbeliever, but a skeptic that you know, a person that wants to

find evidence that something exists. Right, So we took him down to the first floor of the hospital, the oldest portion of the hospital, where there's a story very similar to yours, Eric, which is kind of crazy about a man in a black suit with a black hat and a ribbon bow tie

who was seen by the hospital staff walking into rooms. And when this guy would walk into these rooms, a code blue would be called and the patient, unfortunately pathway and we actually spoke to some of the former hospital staff who saw this figure and reported the code blues and reported all the unexplained happening going around that. But we took Harry down to the first floor. He was by himself. Again, a guy who's a skeptic. He doesn't jump to

conclusions. He's always trying to find rational explanations for anything taking place. And he himself said that it felt like it did when he grew up in the Oregon woods, where you would walk through the woods by yourself and you just know you're not alone, right, you know that there's wildlife out there and you could have that sense of being watched, and that's something he experienced while

being alone down on the first floor. But it wasn't until a few hours later that we had an e MCCD session running where we were shooting down a hallway and we captured something that not only we can't explain, but I think even had doctor Klore kind of freaked out for sure, And that's something I

cannot wait for people to see on Haunted Discoveries. But a moment, you know, you can't really say it's a ghost, right, We don't know exactly, but we can say that this huge photon event manifested itself out of nowhere in a portion of the hospital that was not accessible in an area that was not only chained off with a bike chain, you literally couldn't get there.

But if someone was to somehow get into that portion of the hospital, there are motion sensors that alert the property manager to someone being in that area and actually gives a live feed of video to show that there's someone there. And we captured something just completely unbelievable that we have no rational explanation for and correlates perfectly with some of the reports going back to when the hospital was still

active. Very interesting. So I guess Mustafa the same question for you, And after this orsoever one knows, we're gonna kind of abandon the structure conversation. I want, I want to just be able to jump in for the

questions after this one, So Mustafa go ahead, Yeah for sure. I mean, you know, in addition to being on a series of dates before I got Marrinerat and being subsequently ghosted by every single woman that I talked to, I would say other paranormal experiences that I've had, the one that Brandon mentioned is definitely rate ranks up there. I think it's important. I'm going to kind of like amend the answer and the trajectory of the answer a little

bit. And I think it's really important how you go about the investigation too, because we've been in numerous instances where we just always kind of felt like there's something strange that's happening, and we thoroughly kind of not only do we vet all of these locations and vet all of the people that we're talking to, and but we take their accounts as true and we try to look at the entire situation of their accounts, and we really try to go as full

force as we can with it. And we've been on hundreds of investigations combined, like you know, everybody on the crew, so we kind of get a sense of like when okay, like there's something here, but we can't really put our finger on it. When it came to that phenomena, there

was a lot leading up to that. There was just like you know, there's a whole lot of nothing, a whole lot of like blue balls moments, a whole lot of like you know, things where you go down like a hallway you kind of feel like there's something there and there's not, but everything kind of seemed to point us to this one area of the hospital and then it just kind of caught us by surprise and what we captured there.

And then there's the feelings that were associated with it, the the experience that happened, the way that the air was electric, literally electric, it was it felt very you felt weightless when you walked down this hallway after it happened. It was ethereal, very very memorable. It was just a kind of beautiful and scary, transcendent moment that I'm very very happy that we were able

to capture on camera. Personally, I've had experiences in the house that I grew up in, and I've been having like weird things happened where I could have swore, like on multiple occasions, like I've seen myself like in passing walking like through my house, and it's like I'm always kind of going in and out of my head like, oh am I crazy? Like you know, I was like, am I just seeing things? Like? You know,

because we've all kind of relied on our feelings. If you've been in any bad relationships, you know that that happens where it's like oh man, And then you look back on it, You're like, oh wow, that person was kind of psychotic and they treated me like garbage and they never you

know, I was just looking at it through rose tinted glasses. But that's why I like that we're able to document these things and that occurrence that we were able to capture, including a lot of other ones throughout the course of these investigations on haunted discoveries. Yeah, those that one definitely ranks up there as one of Like if I were to show somebody who is really really skeptic, I'll be like, Okay, check this out. I think that would

get the coals burning a little bit. And I have a longtime friend who's very, very skeptic, and he's still convinced. I'm like signed to some NDA where like I have to, like it's like a pro wrestler keeping up k fabe. He's like, come on, man, I'm like, no, dude, Like this is like what I've been researching. This would have been doing, like you know, for like pretty much almost all more than

half of my life now, like you know. And he's like, and I tell him that story, and I show him an image that we had from that and when you can. When I can see him pause like a little bit, I'm like, all right, yeah, that's that's really cool. So yeah, one thing I find really awesome and interesting about every one of the stories that we just heard from you guys is there's always some element of this is how the environment was controlled. These are the external factors,

and you're doing it unconsciously. I think that really shows like the work that people who go out and research these things, and our paranormal investigators, the work that goes into developing those habits. So I find that very interesting that you all had the exact same response when it came to the elements that could affect your paranormal experience. I mean, very different stories all around, but very interesting. Nonetheless, no, I agree, and again you guys can

jump in at any point in these these these coming questions. But I want to discuss evidence for a second, because we kind of just went over all of our personal occurrences or happenings or encounters and compelling evidence that we've had but

we can all acknowledge. I mean, the one reason I wanted to do this roundtable as we have you know, documentary filmmakers, podcast hosts, you know, the closest thing to a professional investigator I know is Eric, and then we have all these different types of parental investigators, but we're still in that same bubble. But there's a lot of bullshit when it comes to evidence that's put out there. What do and again jump in whenever, what do

you guys consider to be real evidence? Because I'm extremely critical when it comes to everything that's sent to me. Eric showed me a really compelling clip a little while ago. The first thing I did would say, Hey, send this to me. I want to tear this apart. I want to show you why it's nonsense, because that's how I approach everything, and I approach it kind of with that asshole tendency of if I wasn't there, I can't prove it was there, and so that's where my skepticism comes from. So

I want to know everyone's opinion. What do you consider actual evidence? And what does it take Someone like Tyler Terry where he filmed into Ruck to a documentary where we had something that he could definitively, definitively say wasn't within the crew and we still were like, Eh, let's find a reason that this

wasn't real. Let's find the reasons like this wasn't legitimate. I think for me, the approach when you're going into an investigation at the very first and the way that I approach it, I think is similar to probably mossed off in Brendan too. But my motto is, we don't investigate a haunting. We investigate stories of a haunting. Because if you go in to investigate a

haunting that you alreadys believes there, you're already biased. And so when it comes to evidence, I tend to be very critical as well, and especially when I present it to other people, I present it as this is what I caught. What do you think. I never go in and say, look, I caught you know a ghost or I don't know if it's a

ghost. None of us know if it's a ghost. Hell, it could be time slips, it could be all kind of other different phenomena, black holes, and you know, some of the things that they're doing skinwalker rnsers crazy but in some and it could just all kind of different phenomena. It doesn't necessarily have to be the afterlife. We're running off the theories and educated

guesses based on experiences and things like that. So even though I would never thought anybody's story because I wasn't there, so I can't say what the conditions were and things like that. And it's the same with my own stories, you know, because I want people to believe the things that I've had happened when either that's to get it. And hopefully I'm credible enough and talk intelligently and educated enough too for people to believe when I tell you a story,

this really happened to me. But can I tell you that's a ghost or it's a place is haunted. I don't think anybody can do that, just like there's no experts in this field. And I hate when people use that moniker and they put it, producers put it on TV, and it's ridiculous because you can't be an expert and something you can't prove. And so you know, I'll come and show you a picture and be like, look at this, you know, what does it look like to you? And I

can describe the conditions and you can believe it or not. But I'm never going to come to you and say, even with that EVP, I'm just gonna come and say, listen to those voice we caught, here's the conditions Rosemont, for example, in Gallatin, Tennessee, we caught a horse any on an EVP and there's the walls are three foot thick brick. There's no horses within ten miles of the place. I can't explain that. But I can't tell you that that was a ghost horse either, So that's kind of

my approach. I can't really I just know what I believe, and it comes down to belief a lot and being there and like we were saying, the feelings that you get the kind of extra century that your body has in the environment. But I can't say that that's a ghost or a spirit or the afterlife. You know, it may just all be imprints on the environment, which you know, we call residual hauntings, even some of the intelligent

stuff. And there's even some people researching into that we're haunting ourselves, especially to locations that we've been at multiple times. If you get your name on an EVP or through you know, any other piece of equipment, maybe that's just where we left an imprint on the environment. And the last time we were there, we introduced ourselves and now we're just hearing it again. So there's all different kind of things out there, so it's hard to say with

evidence. And then you also with evidence, you have all the people who they just want attention, and so they're gonna everything's demonic or everything's this or that, and they're just going to jump to conclusions because they want the attention.

They don't want a real explanation that a picture is a lens flayer or you know, naturally occurring issue with a piece of with a camera or something that you know, we know like Apple cameras are notorious for these green orbs because of the way that camera lens is made with a expicted glass on it, and so if you if you know things like that, then it's a

lot easier to debunk natural things that are occurring in the environment. For me, I would say it has to be quantifiable data that can be tested and analyzed by a third party, and a third party that's a professional from a technical industry. I mean, you have a lot of param enthusiasts and people that investigate the supernatural that go out there and use these devices specifically made de

fine ghosts right, and in reality that's just simply not true. But if we can utilize technology from other technical industries that give us quantifiable data that can be looked at by a professional that uses that technology on a day to day basis that can tell you this is something that's natural or something that's not natural. That's when we're taking that next step to finding proof, if you will, or at least some kind of answers as to what is something we can

or cannot explain. So for me, it's quantifiable data, putting ourselves through that scrutiny and understanding what methodology is and you know, what protocol should be, standards and ethics, and utilizing professional equipment from other technical industries that can be analyzed by a third party to say, hey, this is an artifact, Hey this is something we've seen before, this is clearly natural, or

hey we have no idea what this means and how you captured it. So I think once you start to add all that up and you start to actually have that data, that's when we take the next step and actually have what we would consider proof. To kind of piggyback and I think, oh, I'm so sorry. I was just gonna say to piggyback off of what you guys are saying, another kind of side question I want to add in here. Is do you think it's more important for you to find answers for yourself

or find answers to present to the public. I know, as we all have multi media outcomes and outlets that we have with podcasting, videos, documentary shows, what do you find is more important with that compelling evidence? I think first and foremost, if you are legitimately doing it for yourself, right and not some kind of like personal seeking or some kind of you confirmation of some delusion you're trying to create for yourself. Having that high standard for yourself

is going to invariably cover what you're going to give to the public. Right. So if you have a high standard and you're putting yourself before you put any kind of discovery you make out there, or trying to present some type of evidence or relay any findings that you had right by when we when we did Haunted Discoveries, I did not think we would have captured a fraction of what we were able to capture. All I wanted to do and Brandon was

of the same mind, which let's document our methodology. Let's attack the usage of this methodology to the highest level that we possibly can. For every minute of filming that we're doing in pre production and all of that, and let's

let's just document the results. And that's a hundred percent. It's gonna sound counterintuitive, but it's one hundred percent of selfish endeavor on our part because we've we've again, this is gonna sound like super arrogant, but I think a lot of people here would probably agree is that we set that bar for ourselves.

Okay, this is what we need to do. And as a result of setting that bar, I think that kind of spurs something and sets a spark in the investigation that even makes it possible to document whatever it is that we're documenting. I think the pursuit and the study of the afterlife is in itself the pursuit of life and living. It's a reflection on death is what kind of makes you want to live life. More So, if there is this idea that we're kind of communicating with individuals who have passed on, right,

then wouldn't that resonate with them? And wouldn't that kind of fement that energy to become alive or echoes of the past or whatever it is that we're documenting. So I think it inherently has to be a selfish pursuit. I really do, because then I think what ends up happening is if you're going in with I need to show this to other people, right, and if you're working in the TV space, and I could imagine that there are a number of individuals who are going to try and get ghosts. So this is

why you have this garage teche that comes out. This is why you have devices that are easily manipulated that you can key with a walkie or like you know, show it on to TV so people can be like, oh, wow, look there's there's a ghost here. I think it really really has to come from a place of personal discovery, fighting to have a genuine interest in the subject matter. And we're human like you know, our desires and

feelings, Wax and Wayne, just like you know the seasons. But upholding that methodology that you set for yourself in a very selfish way, I think is what helps inform the rest of your work. There's a motto that Bob has heard me say probably a million times, and that is personal is universal. Whether we're writing stories or doing investigations or whatever the creative work is.

I feel like every human is a microcosm of humanity. In general. That's why we have archetypes, That's why we have all these story formulas that that work, and then people follow because somehow, one way or another, our

our life always ends up following that track. So I feel like when you're looking forever, when when you're doing anything, I don't care if you're selling spoons, If you're honest with yourself, if that's your passion and you're doing it the right way for yourself, it will resonate with other people because we're

so similar in so many ways. And so I always feel like when I'm asked what's the best type of evidence, it's like, I'm never going to convince you, and it always ends up going to you need to go out and try it yourself to see how it really feels. Because sometimes the biggest skeptics, and I'm and I'm one of them, but sometimes the loudest skeptics, I guess can't even walk into a dark building, like they're they're too

afraid, they can't spend time. In the end, it's like they're talking to them, they're trying to talk themselves into being a skeptic, but they can't actually do the work. So but I would say if I have to pick evidence, then I would. Yeah, I would totally agree with the way that that Mustaf and Brandon do things. I'm totally fascinated by the photon events and the EMCCD camera and how that works. I've never I mean, I've seen it on ghost Hunters, but you know, I've never gotten my

hands on one to see how it actually works. And I'm curious. What what is you? You said, a EMCCD. So that's I did a little bit of homework. Electron multiplying charge couple device which I know charge couple devices just what older cameras would would use as a sensor. But what is it? What does a session look like? I know you guys have to keep some stuff for your for your season premiers and all that, but what does a session look like as far as the parameters and and how you guys

go through that. How long does it last? And what does it look like for the photons? Sorry, a day, twenty four hours as possible. You know, we want to monitor an environment for as long as possible. But again we're basing in the off of eyewitness testimony of what people claim to see in these locations, right, so we're utilizing this camera that we've

been very lucky to work with doctor clore On and have his expertise. I mean, the guy has written many papers about photon events, and he was the one of the people that actually suggested to us when we said if we were to monitor a supposed haunted location, what we would look for. He mentioned, you know the possibility of photon events, right, So we control

the environment as much as possible. The EMCCD, like you said, at electron multiplying sensor, it's looking for light events that typically aren't seen by the human eye, and this camera's extremely sensitive, so you have to control an

environment as much as possible. But again we go to locations where, for instance, on episode two of season one, there's this story about a woman in a black dress walking up a servant staircase in this location, and that particular staircase is surrounded by windows in a eighteen hundreds home, and at night, you know, you have gas lamps that are outside the window with a

flicker of a flame, you have street lights coming through. But with this particular camera and the spectrum you're allowed to see and you can see those different light forms showing up in not only different colors, but the way it casts the shadows and the way it just casts a light onto an environment, and

we were able to actually capture something pretty significant. But again with this camera being that it's so sensitive and that it sees light in ways that I've never experienced before with any kind of device, you have to be very mindful of everything. But again with a photonic event, we're looking for these light anomalies that are showing up that in theory, have their own energy source. The only way we were able to recreate some of these photon events that we've collected

throughout the country is by lighting a map on camera. To see not only the light associated with the flame, but to see the way it kind of can busts on camera. Is the closest thing we I think got right, Mustafa to trying to naturally recreate some of these events that we've captured on camera.

Yeah, it's it's it's really fascinating stuff and it kind of it Also it also calls into question a lot of things that we may have discounted in terms of like orbs, Like a lot of times that's just like you know, a consequence of like Eric was saying earlier, of like camera sensors. But then you know, a lot of these events we saw they literally look like something out of the movie Poltergeist. You know, it's just this weird

thing that's inexplicable. We don't know what it is, but it is its own energy source, and it is coming from somewhere in many instances, and all of them actually come out of nothing to come out of nowhere. It's just a photon event. It's an energy source that manifests, It travels a short distance or stays stationary and kind of burns and then disappears. What is

that? We don't know, but I think what you want to you want to be in a position where in order to come up with a practice, If you're reaching to come up with a practical explanation for something, then you can be like, oh, okay, this is paranormal. Like Brandon says,

if it's not normal, it's it's paranormal. So if if you're showing this to people who are experts in the usage of this equipment or people who are experts in their respective fields and they're kind of left grabbing at straws to how to explain something, You're like, all right, we got something special. On our hands here, and we've been fortunate enough to be in that position quite a few times. So I want to dive into texture in just

a second. One I want to I want to expand on the camera specifically. Is this a consumer grade camera? Is this something that's built for you and your team or with the doctors you work with. And if it isn't a consumer grade camera, what parameters are you guys taking to ensure that there is no external stimulants that may be pushing this camera to give these photon events more direct evidence. And again we'll get into it with the like said,

the equipment side of things, I'm very critical about paranormal equipment. I will spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars to buy the stuff, taking apart and explain why it works or doesn't work. So this photon camera that I want to know a where did that come from? How did you guys acquire

this style of investigation? But also what steps are you doing consistently for a camera like that that's so out of the norm to ensure that it is calibrated properly and it's working and it's intended use before anyone answers that can I just say one small boring science saying about how the camera works. Yes, so normally when you with a camera with an imaging sensor, you have the light, which for these purposes, I think we can we can equate photons with

light light particles, even though it's not that simple. But they go onto the sensor and they move. They energize electrons, which are you know, those are the only two particles I'm going to mention, I promise, So if you're listening and you're like, I'm not going to do this today, only two because I also hate it. But so those those electrons move and then they basically map out the picture that was taken. So with these EMCCD cameras, the photons go in, the electrons move, and then they are

charged. They are electrified before they map out the picture. So it's amplifying that light. It's amplifying those photo electrons, which is the photoelectric effect and you can google it, but basically photons hit electrons, it makes them move. So that's how it amplifies it to the point where it's used in like the medical field and in a stre me and all that type of stuff.

So that's what I love about this camera because most things that we use in the field have like ir light or things that penetrate, and this is just kind of soaking up the environment, which is why it's so exciting to me. So I just wanted to put that in there. You know, it's funny like so, going by everything you just said, it was brilliant by

the way, it was awesome. But going back to the question, so we were given this camera by one of our scientific consultants that we worked with for a number of years out of Texas, and he's used it specifically for astronomy. That's what he's utilized it for. And when he gave us this piece of equipment, he said, pointed at the sky, and I was like, Okay, that's not really the purpose. While we're getting which I

have not yet to do that yet. We've used it outside in graveyards in places where there's been eyewitness testimony, but I've never actually pointed it up at the sky. And that's one of the purposes. He's used it for many years and he's captured a lot of things that he can't explain. He's using it for scientific research purposes, but he's gotten stuff just in the sky that

he can't explain he's sent me clips before. There's just mind blowing stuff, which some of it's kind of similar to stuff we've captured before mist Office, specifically at Octagon Hall in the enslaved people's cemetery, very similar looking things, but I mean just pointing straight up at the stars. But again, like you said, it's soaking up the environment. That's why it's such an important factor to try and control that environment as much as possible when we're utilizing the

camera. Like I said earlier, with like the Louisville bourbon in and that specific scenario with that staircase where you were literally monitoring the same live and you can see the different pools of light that are coming in from different sources, and you can just it all encompasses everything in the image where you can tell what is coming from, what's right, and that's when we have these moments where these photonic events manifest and show up and are put through the sensor and

recorded that are just kind of mind blowing and sometimes even to the fact where we ask for it to happen and it's actually happened before. So it's it's mind blowing stuff. But again, doctor Clark can speak to it in a way more scientific nature and really break it down. But that was a great explanation everything you just said. But again going back to controlling the environment, very important with that sensitive piece of equipment. And again there's been some stuff

we just simply can't can't explain it at all. Very cool. So I want to discuss now gimmicks versus features when it comes to para equipment because a very unexpected byproduct with the rise of the need for paranormal entertainment and the popularity in this field has been everyone and their sister suddenly has an engineering degree and they can create these devices that detect ghostspun So Eric, you know, Eric and I had a great conversation at the Thomas house when we went through all

of his equipment and we had an in depth discussion about why I don't trust certain pieces of equipment. Again, I'll buy this stuff to take it apart and never use it again. Like and I'm just gonna throw this out there because I can say this publicly. The hufbox is a great explanation of a gimmick versus a feature written piece of equipment. How are you guys? And Tyler, you as well, we had this discussion we did Fantom Farm.

What equipment we were actually going to share how everyone in this group, how are you approaching the equipment that you're using and you're bringing in one film and you're utilizing to collect what maybe evidence of life after death? Because again, we're extremely critical about these types of things, and I want to know every new spirit box. I want to take it apart. Is there a repeater

in there? Can I put an SD card? Is there anything I can do to influence this to give me quote unquote evidence Tyler to the rimpod. We are extremely critical about the rimpod because we found six ways from Sunday to set it off. It. We just can't trust that piece of equipment. And that's one of the most universally accepted ones that you see on almost every television show. And you don't know as someone standing behind the camera, at

camera operator or even outside the building pressing that button. This second Tyler ask question, you don't really know. So I want to throw that out to you guys. What is a what separates the two and what is a feature that you have to have or you feel like it's an essential part of your your tool kit as an investigator. Well, I can give a short answer

first and observing the way that that Gustaf and Brandon Eric. Sorry, I've never seen you investigator or anything, so I can't comment on how on your style, but I know that that Mustaf and Brandon have an approach that I agree with where they use the EEDI the environmental detection instruments, and when something happens, they're measuring multiple factors in the environment. So when those things line up, that's much more compelling. There really is never one device that you

know. Your your EMS starts streaming, you don't know if it's a battery issue or what's going on. I've we we both I think, have followed EMF through a house to a furnace or something that's I don't understand that when it's in Uh, there was a place I went that's surrounded by powerlines. It's like it moves through and waves. If I'm not as educated an investigator, then I think I'm following a ghost girl into the closet instead of just

this thing that's happening once every hour or so. I think it's just a collection of things that have to spike when the door handle shakes or there's an EVP or something like that. That's kind of the only way that it's going to be compelling to someone else. Other than that it's just a personal journey. Well, I can say with Eric in particular, when we went to Thomas House, he very rarely had any piece of equipment that we didn't put

in your hands when it came to actually investigating. So I know Bob wanted to say something, then we'll pass it on. Well, basically, so for Tyler, it needs to be coupled with an external stimulant and an internal internal being. The environmental factor, whether it be EMF you're following, or barometric pressure change. I'm still on team bring back barometers. Every investigating team should have a damned giant barometer they carry around with them at all times.

Brandon and Mustafa correct me if I'm wrong. Does the EEDI have a brom are in it? Yep, it does. It's like like we always talk about the Swiss Army Knife of the paranormals, what that is and the guys that actually created that device. We're not paranormal people, you know. They're actually really brilliant engineers that put together a very specific device that in reality every

paranormal investigator should be using. I think that if you're going to be a ghost hunter or paramal enthusiast orn investigator, that's the device you should have right there, because not only you documenting everything from barometric pressure to temperature, humidity, EMF, vibration, but you're also collecting that data and recording it to an SD card and able to actually chart that and graph it out, which

is really cool. So that's something we're always using in conjunction with say the EMCCD camera because going back to the photon events, we've noticed that when we're seeing these photonic events happen, we're seeing drastic changes in barometric pressure, right which is another interesting angle in that whole PARAMORL photon theory we've been talking about.

But also one thing we've added in the last couple of seasons is outside of using the EEDI Plus with the mcc camera, we're also using devices from Kestral who Kevin Audio, our field investigator, reached out to the National Weather Service and they directly gave us this equipment to monitor all the environmental conditions in a location, everything from windspeed to barometric pressure, humidity, temperature, magnetic compass, all these things that they use in the field with the National Weather

Service that we have adapted into our research now that's used in conjunction with the EEDI plus and say the MCCD camera, and we're trying to correlate all those devices together, and we were very lucky with the last couple investigations we did to have all three of those devices correlate together at the exact moment, from the visual anomaly with a photon event to the magnetic compass changing on the Kestral device ten degrees and having very much pressure change on the VII plus, which

was a pretty crazy moment. What is the kestral device measuring? It's all kinds of stuff right in the stuff It's it's pretty wild. And what's great about it too, is not only are you data logging all that information, but you're also able to monitor in real time. Be an app a really nice application they put together. But again, everything from windspeed to direction, a magnetic compass, a parametric pressure, I mean, everything you can imagine.

The National Weather Service is documented at any given time. It's literally all there and giving you real time data. So that'll also be helpful for ruling out you know, weather and temperature changes that would change the pressure at that time, which is always something that I hear that I was probably just getting cold. In another interesting thing, we don't really rely on em very often. We more utilize em say like a tri field meter to rule out the

natural electromagnetic frequencies in a location. That's when we're typically using it. I think there's been a few times we've had things happen with EMF that just couldn't be explained, one of which was at a jail with doctor Klore where being in those jail cells, it was essentially a Faraday cage right in an area that does not have any electricity, no outlets, anything like that, and you're in a perfect fair Day cage. And we had some responses with it.

But again with the Kestral device and that magnetic compass that's on there, that to me is a more credible way to try and document any EMAP anomalies. Like going back to utilizing a compass, just a standard compass for magnetic fields. It's very similar, but in a digital sense, and we had a moment with that that to me, that was credible EMF data more so than utilizing say like you know, rimpod or whatever the hell people are using.

So I think it's just again utilizing technology from other technical industries, talking to these people that utilize that in their professional fields day in and day out, and for them to you know, allow us to use this equipment, and then for us to document things and send them that data. That just takes it a step further for sure. Yeah. So for me with equipment, I am very low tech. I don't I don't do EMF meters.

I hate rampods. EMF meeters were brought into the field originally to rule out, like Brandon was saying, rule out unshieldreed wiring and houses and things like that. And I've even been on a private investigation where they were seeing operations and things in their house and their wireless modem because the ladies husband was a big gamer, so they had a really fast internet connection to this crazy wireless

modem that was given off fifteen hundred milligals. Well, that's going to cause anybody hallucinate to hear things, see things if you're especially if you're sensitive to to E m F. And that's scientifically proven in facts that high ems. You can look up to God experiment the God helmet experiment and things like that. But and then as far as like rampods, rimpods, I mean, any powerful radio will set them off. You can have a walkie talkie key

it up. And I showed this to everybody that comes on public investigations with us when we sell tickets. That's all it takes. But also, even if you don't have a walkie talkie, who's to say that the trucker down the street has a you know, driving by on the interstate, doesn't have a really powerful CB radio that's setting it off, and you know things like that, So you you can't control those outside factors with with equipment like that. I'm just big on video. I have a flee your thermal camera.

I guess on my cell phone that that works really really well that we've got some anomalies with. So yeah, just video audio and and uh I do I do like the s's method. We've gotten some crazy experiences out of that. Now was it paranormal? I don't know, but we've just gotten some really cool answers and things that people wouldn't know and things that we didn't even know that we've gotten about locations. But yeah, as far as apps and

and other uses equipment. I may use a motion detector every once in a while, but the things that I use they're not made by anybody that's in the paranormal. I mean, the motion detector is something that I ordered off Amazon. That's just a motion detector, like you know, so there's no there's nothing in there that's you know, hacked or or made to get false positives and things like that. Not saying a motion detector can't. But you know, for the most part, you break that beam, it's gonna go

off. It's very simple device. But yeah, I don't I don't like gadgets in that way that they're they're fallible, and especially the ones that are like you know, ghost Tube, ghost Pro. Everything's fucking ghosts something and it's just ridiculous. It's you know, well that's how you know it's for ghosts. Just buying hardware to fix a house or something. Oh my goddamn brain. I do want to jump in because it's important. This is for

everyone's audience. No app works, stop using them. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna carry you. I don't need to argue with this. I okay, you just killed half of the YouTube paranormal content streaming. I don't know what you're but my thing is with with paranormal apps, we've we've proven them wrong six ways from Sunday. I can't even I can't even approach that discussion because I've seen this way too often. I was like, yeah, I had this happen on my app, and then my hair stood up on the

back of my neck. I definitely got molested by a ghost. No, you fucking didn't. That never happened. You're you're you're grasping at straws. So I do want to quick kind of throw it over toward the sponsor of the show, the Tennessee Hawnson Legends Expo, Eric, can you walk us through everything with the Tennessee Hawnson Legends because it's our first expo and you know firsthand getting me out of Ohio it's it's that's an impossible task. I don't

do events. In the fact that you got me there. You got me on my first live investigation that I did with anybody else was with you. And again it's that silky smooth radio voice, it really is. I can't say no spelling. So tell us about the expo. Yeah, well you're not, You're not the only one. I'm very honored that Brandon agreed to do the expo also because he does he's not one to do conventions and things, and and I'm grateful to him and must offer for a greening to do

the expo. But yeah, we have some great speakers. That's coming to the Nashville Fairgrounds in Nashville, Tennessee on October twenty feet and uh, it's the first big expo that we've done, but it's called Tennessee Hanson Legends Expo. Tickets are just for the general public or ten dollars and then twelve and hundreds free. All of the proceeds are going to two separate charities. One is a hanted astoric location called Trousdale Place in Gallatin, Tennessee, and the

other half of the proceeds will go to the Animal Rescue Corps. And what

they do is they break up puppy mills. So they'll go out to Bumfuck County, Tennessee, where they don't have animal control and the sheriffs department things can't afford to break up these puppy mills, and they go out and give them the the volunteers and the money to break up these puppy meals and they actually put the dogs and the and the cats and to into no kill shelters with natural Humanist, big big partner, THEIRS, but they're kind of all

over the southeast. And so two great charities. Trousville plays. It's a historic location, has a great history, and of course like any other location, they're nonprofit. Any other historical location, they're nonprofit. They live off of you know, five dollars tours coming in the door, and you know they have upkeep. You know, a storm comes through and blows a tree down on a property, they have to pay somebody to clean it up or

they've fixed the foundation. That's one of the issues they're having right now. And so yeah, I just keeps that history alive and help them with the animals. And we have a great day of speakers, the whole speaker lineup. Brandon Mustafa will will be our key speakers that day. They have an hour to get up and talk about what they do and talking about how discoveries and things like that. And then also Tyler, Bob and Britney will be

there. You're gonna have a Bob and Brittany. You' are gonna have the Tails from the Dark booth, and you also have a Missing Person Mysteries booth as well. Yep. And we're gonna do a screening of Phantom Farm documentary, and then we're gonna follow that up with a panel of all of y'all up there talking to the audience about the film and and answering questions and things. Who We're definitely excited. Like I said, it's it's it's for a

great cause and it's with great people. I'm very I'm very excited. I'm excited about I'm also against a lot of the conventions that are out there because it's it's a clear money grab. Yeah, and I hate to say it there against you too. Yeah, well that's trying to check your money, you know. But when when you you know, when you brought this to us, it's for a good cause. We'd like to have you guys down. First off, we can't tell Eric, no, we really can't.

We all need a band together, everyone in this call and figure out what kind of juju Eric has over us. All right, Yeah, look, I'm just what you see is what you get, whether you talk to me on the phone, online, on the podcast, in person. I'm the same exact fucking person, no matter when you see me, when you talk to me, I'm just okay, Satan, I've heard this before. We don't see camera are effigies of us. The mine is just a stretch arms

drawing. I do want to talk to you guys. What are your guys as pet peeves and the paranormal not just necessarily television documentaries, but the paranormal community because it is weird. People have like these little camps of like everything's a demon, and if you say it's not a demon, you're not a real investigator. And then there's a bunch of like weird I'll die on this

hill paranormal stances. I don't that I don't really understand from me, But my biggest pet peeve has to just be there has to be this hyper masculine, macho face of every group that has to say I'm here, this is my group, I'm in charge. I'm gonna bend this ghost over. That's my biggest pet peeve. That There's what I've been railing about on my show the whole fucking three years I've had my show, is there's no diversity in

the paranormal, especially paranormal TV. There is diversity. Paranormal is not represented on TV. It's it's it tends to be a bro culture wearing fucking affliction t shirts and every episode, fuck him, fuck him. I wish you would pick a fight with me. It'd be good for my brand. But

but yeah, it's just ridiculous. Like you know, it takes all of us to try to figure this out, and and to see even these even really large paranormal podcasts that have been on that have been out for years, that have nothing but men on his guest and then maybe twice a year they have a woman on and it's just ridiculous. And whether they do that on

purpose or or subconsciously. And I really didn't realize until I started booking guests and I started giving comments about from people in reviews and things that one of the reason they liked my show is because I talked to everybody, not just a bunch of bro culture men. And you know, I have groups with all women and things like that, not to two mind horn, but I just want to talk to everybody. It wasn't even something I consciously did.

It's not something I constantly do now. I just book everybody. But to see some of the bigger podcasts. It just made me realize, yeah, they do, you know, but just that hyper masculine culture bullshit, because like I said, it takes all of us in this field too to figure this out, and it's not just one group or another. The other thing that I could talk about is is religion in the paranormal field period, because that's where you get the demon ship from, is looking at it from a

religious standpoint and Rose Cutter glasses there. But I won't get on that soap box. Well, no, no, I wanted to write a book that I was going to call the Separation Separation of Church and Ghosts because because I completely agree with you. And then the other thing. I don't know if

you guys have watched The Little Rascals, but the terrifying film. Current paranormal culture is very much like the The He Man Woman Haters Club, and you see that way too often, and it's very bizarre because like I often consider, you know, I'm the co host of the show and Brittany, you know, runs everything without Brittany Tellsman Dark doesn't exist, Fantom Farm didn't happen.

That's the way that I approach all of these conversations and I want to expand this to Brandon and Mustaffa as well, because I sure, I'm sure you guys see this in a different way, and I guess Tyler could be

included. Well, if I could say one quick thing, I think it's I try not to judge what everyone's doing, how they investigate or whatever, because I don't think it's I think it's a symptom of a barrier to entry, because the real way to do it, the way that Brandon and Mustafa do it, it's not that like fun like a you know, you're not gonna you're not gung ho about, You're not in there for the jump scares. It's not like a horror movie, right, And it's so scientific.

As someone who I guarantee watches more paranormal content than anybody here. It's a problem, it is, But but most of the time I'm just you know, this is what not to do. This is what I'd rather do. A lot of the paranormal YouTubers they do two things. It's rampods and turn on their apps, and their apps will tell the story and they see, oh that person's doing it. It's working, So I'm going to do it.

I think if we can, and this is why I see such a bright light and like Haunted Discoveries and all these things, is if we can simplify that or make it approachable to where people can start doing it on YouTube and have this kind of formula to follow. It's it's never that simple, but I think it's a it's a trend thing and a barrier to entry thing. So we have people that are doing the easiest thing, and yeah, it's not it's there's not really a simple solution to it, but it's tricky,

it's work. I think that we went from as a culture, especially when the paranormal went from Okay, the journey is the point to now the destination is the point. So let's get it to the fucking destination as quick as we can. To hell with the journey to get there. I always think that the journey in the paranormal films that I like documentaries and things and YouTube channels, it's it's always the ones that like small town monsters that are

documenting documenting, not just the evidence they caught or the investigation. It's it's all about how they got there to begin with. That I find more fascinating anything and I think that's what brendanm. Stoffer doing as well with Hunt of

Discoveries. It's okay, we have a journey to getting to the investigation and the evidence and things, but we need to understand the history, the lineage, all these other factors we need to understand about this location before we ever get to you know, the payoff, which is you know, the paranormal.

I guess when people watch the shows. But yeah, I think a lot of those shows have have and and people on YouTube, they just get straight to the to the destination and the hell of the journey because that's what people want to hear and see. Yeah, I mean, I mean first we have to just discuss the girls have COVID bees. I think that's all right, listen, Well that's I think. No, I think a lot of it just has to do about like you were saying, Eric is it's

it's the work. I think, as long as you're focusing on a methodology and the work that you're doing. And I think Brandon would agree on this, is that, like you know who we work with and collaborate with, and we've had guests, investigators, and we brought people in on Haunt of Discoveries and who we work with. I mean it's we don't really care like about any kind of agenda, whether it's in terms of optics or anything like that. All we really kind of care about is the work. I think.

And then and then you have shows like you know, Kesha's Paranormal Show or Demilovado like you know, Singing the Ghosts or whatever, and then it's just like, hey, hey, hey, look at this, we got this diversity. Check this out. And then it's like okay, but you're still using mpods and your methodology is crap. So then it's just like and then you can't say it's bad because then you're not progressive. But it's like it doesn't change. No, I'll say, I'll say it right now.

It is like, yeah, it's so I do think, yeah, I do whatever. I man, I cancel myself on a daily basis. But I think I think it's just it's it's really important to highlight like, you know, the efforts that people are doing or a really really interesting new approach. A lot of times with like I think that hypermasculinity and all that other stuff that you know people are getting upset about is that you know, Ghosts Adventures is a very very very very popular show Baggan's is a very very very

popular brand. So then people are going to go and try to replicate that. I mean, the Barbie movie made a billion dollars and then now they're already going to make a Polly Pocket movie or like whatever, and it's like who cares? Like you know, just as like an example in the entertainment sphere. But again, methodology, the work, the journey of getting to that methodology and explaining it and really applying it in interesting and intriguing ways in

a in a situation, location case. Any of that I think can not only be gratifying and informative, but it can also be scary, because Brandon I say this, all time science is scary, like when when when you when you can rule out any possibility of this, having a practical explanation and going through that, and then if you show things that are you know, oh, we've we've debunked this, we've debunked that, and then you come

across something that you truly cannot explain. With a group of people from all walks of life, from all parts of the country and in some cases the world, working together to be like, hey, we're working towards this thing, to run towards this common goal. Like that's the stuff that like every cool like video game RPG you grew up playing, was about every movie. It's like, you know, the Goonies, but in real life. And it's a really, really kind of beautiful thing when you can when you can

touch that, even if just for a little bit. And yeah, if you're doing good work and focusing on that, that trumps everything else because then everything else is just you know, it's just sprinkles on top and it's all sprinkles, but the cake sucks. So make a good cake, which is your work, and then the rest will fall into place, you know. I think to add to that, one thing that I don't think a lot

of parallel investigators think about is filmmaking skills. And it makes a big difference when you're you know, you could have good investigators that have horrible audio, the winds beating on the mic and you can't hear anything they're doing or saying. If you want to capture you have to learn to capture that magic at

some level. There are so many YouTube videos I watch where they just blind the tour guide or the docent with a light and film them talking for a two hour tour or something, and then they start their investigation where they set their rimpot down and run around some structure would really help to highlight these investigators who are probably more focused on their technique, rightfully so, because they have so much work to do. But if there could be a balance of some

filmmaking skill that could make it more appealing to a mass audience. No, I want to jump in on that because I do think that mustaphic you outline something that's vitally important that people understand. There's a difference between personality and brand, and I feel like that gets lost in translation when you go through the editing process and what have you, and you have people who consistently don't grasp that who they show on screen is not always who they are as a person.

And so you have a ton of investigators attempting to mimic what they're seeing consistently on television, and I think that can be equally damaging because they don't understand that it wasn't like that day one they had to work into said brand and so picking up where they left off, which again we talked about that on the show here all the time. It's really important to leave your investigation in your research and a point that someone can pick it up and continue.

You have to also pay omage and respect of what got you to that point in the first place. I know, I got Brandon and Britney, So to go in your guys's pet peeves, I want to hear Britney specifically, Oh God, Brittany or Brandon and go Brandon, You're good, you can go first. Well, I mean again, I just to piggyback off what

everyone was saying. I mean, you guys kind of hit the nail on the head with all of it. But again, it's methodology man for me, and a lot of times to seeing these people go into these very tragic historical situations and hijack, hijack that person's storyline and make that storyline their own

in a way. That's a big pet peeve of mind is that sometimes these stories are just not ours to tell in any way, shape or form, right, And it's always kind of sad to see certain investigators or filmmakers whoever maybe kind of spin a very tragic storyline into something that is kind of about them. So that's always tough to see. So I think That's one of my biggest pet peeves is like, just you know, sometimes the stories aren't ours to tell. Be factual, be accurate, and let people decide for

themselves. Don't make it about you, right, Yeah, there's a lot of exploitation of tragedy. I think people just don't see it because they're so concerned with having a cool story. It's like the more horrible it is, the cooler it is. And that's just I don't know if it's a youth thing or what, but it's not preserving history. That's the issue. So coming from my perspective, and it comes to parent noormal. I started relatively

recently three years ago with Tales from the Dark. I grew up in the South, and I grew up with the belief of ghosts exists, and I grew up in a Baptist home, So you know, my theory of ghosts was that it was maybe stuck in between or it was just remnants of what was before. So I grew up believing, and then as I got older, I stopped believing. And then once I got into Tales from the Dark, I relearned and kind of change from all these uh basically parallels euphanisms I've

had in my head. Thank you of what paranormal was. As a woman in the field, I do not feel like I feel like I've been very, very lucky because I don't feel like people exclude me because of my gender or what have you. I feel one with the team, especially with our team for freedom Form. I never felt excluded at all, and I felt like I've never liked you. But okay, well, you know what I was going to ask. Is it because the tyler wears as tight of jeans

as you do. It's tighter jeans. Actually, they're tighter. They're tighter. Yeah, he buys them from hot topic. It's fine, No, But on a real note, I feel like it's I have been valued as a woman, and I have been valued as coming from a scientific background really to for what I bring to the table. I don't feel like I have been targeted or put down because of that. And I know the hyper masculine has been a huge issue even growing up watching Ghost Hunters and Ghost Adventures.

I mean it's it's been ghost Hunters not so much, but Ghost Adventures especially has been very, uh hyper masculine for a very long time. So I agree with you guys that it is an issue, but I will personally say I've not seen it myself. Now, Tyler's getting redder and redder because you are insulting his pair of idol over here. I know it's his Lord and Savior. He's gonna flip, He's gonna flip the studio to ask and run out here a second. I'm just waiting for it. Well, we've been

over this many times, but I shouldn't waste time on it. But the most entertaining show probably Zach begins an entertainer and it stops there. All right, Anyways, I have some sorry, go ahead. Part of the part of the problem is there's so many people that don't take that show is just entertainment. That is the problem that that's part of the problem is that you

have so many people out there emulating that show. And that's why everything on YouTube is demons, because that's what's selling right now on TV and it's all about fucking ratings and that shit. And we'll get into the satanic panic here soon, which kind of goes hand in hand with everything's a demon. So, but what were you gonna say, Tyler? Well, I wanted to

ask Brandon mustaff about a couple episodes of ghost Hunters they did. One was the Cape Gerard am I saying that right, GERARDU Missouri yep, mustaff. You had a scratch on that one, I believe, and I thought it looked interesting. It was so with Okay, so we we did Fantom Farm and we got a much evidence. Seems like the longer we're away from it, the more things we can think of to explain away certain problems or we should have done those should and that. With the scratch, it almost didn't

even look like you're maybe I was seeing it wrong. Your skin wasn't raised, it was like indented. And I'm just wondering, I mean, because that's a pretty big deal. I've never had anything like that happened to me. Be totally crazy. What what are your thoughts about that now being so far removed from it. Yeah, I mean, honestly, what wasn't shown in the episode was just my I was really really incredulous about the whole thing.

Like I was kind of laughing because I thought, you know, I've seen the shows where people gotten scratched or people have talked about it, and my arm kind of just felt like I got stung by a jellyfish, Like it was just very very weird. And then I looked down on it and I almost didn't even want to bring it up because I'm just like, I don't want to like waste time and resources on this thing if it's just like some weird reaction I'm having. But I'm like, I should, I should.

And then to me, I honestly believe it had a lot to do with the fact that I was taking a little bit I think of of an aggressive stance. You know, the people they lost that the family there, and that home, they lost their home under a very very tragic series of circumstances. And me personally, I felt really guilty about that because you know, my family when we were growing up, we lost our house and uh, and it's still not something that I've like, I don't think I'll ever

get over it. It's just like kind of like like you know, PTSD or whatever, like when I think about it, and it's really bad. So for me, I kind of felt guilty by like bringing that up. But yeah, I definitely I don't know. I can't explain it. I don't know what happened. I'm I wouldn't have brought it up if I thought

there was any kind of practical explanation for it. So and and I actually had more when I went back to my hotel room and then you know, I was, you know, all sweaty and Kate Gerardo and the muggiest weather possible. You know, I'm like peeling my closed off myself at the end of the night. And on my back there was a scratch. There were scratches, you know. And I didn't have any fun times with any you know, weird goth chicks on the road, so that didn't that didn't really

explain that. So yeah, I just had these markings all over my back too. So I don't I don't know. I don't know what it is. I do know that Brandon experienced something similar when we were on the Discoveries and a place at bethlen We can be right, Brandon, Yeah, very similar situation, which was my first time ever experienced in something like that, similar sensation like you mentioned, like it felt like a jellyfish sting on my

back. And then I you and David, who are a cameraman, is completely a skeptic, doesn't believe in anything, But I think the show scared the hell out of him, and he didn't come back for season three. But anyways, we were there and I had a very similar thing, and it was, you know, there were scratches there. Whatever that is that, I don't think it's some negative, demonic type thing in any way,

shape or form. I don't know what the hell it was. But first time I experienced it, I haven't experienced it since, so I have no clue what the hell it is. So what does that do to your side? Is that like, is that the point where you're like, oh, it's all real or is it just another unexplained phenomenon. Well, for me, I thought to myself, maybe I scratched myself, like you know,

you're putting your arm down and you do things unconsciously like that sometimes. But I was wearing gloves all night because it was gosh, almost what five degrees right in stopping there was no power in the house. No, Yeah, So for me, it wasn't really proof of anything. Maybe it was more psychological than anything. I don't know. I don't know what it was. But to me, beyond the physical sensation of it, it didn't affect me any other way or made me think twice about it being supernatural. I don't

know, it's it's hard to explain. I don't know. I do find it hilarious, Mustafa that you kind of just summarized the entirety of what got us to phantom for him. Yeah, we're all just we're all just eyeballing each other. Hearing you say exactly, Yeah, it was like basically word for word, they to the well for a and I'm like, is this guy just repeating tire welcome? You know I was welcome baby. Yeah. I was literally like this guy script, he's rereading the fun with us like

that? Did you start repeating every line? Yeah? Because it was so weird because Tyler, when you brought up some of you're like, hey, I know I already know, but what are your thoughts on this year's a video? But I know, and we had that, We had a pretty explained that there was a fantom scratch and Phantom farm one of our investigators, and hearing you guys describe it was that's basically the exact psychological process that he went through. He didn't think it happened. He was just trying to play

it off and he was on the whole time. Now, his his scratches only lasted about twenty to thirty minutes. Misstaff had did you notice did your disappear after a while or how long did they stay? Now they were there until the following morning. Wow, yeah, they were there for a few hours. I would say they were there for at least like eight nine hours. Yeah, that sounds way worse than so I have one more, right, Yeah, that would be well, you know, that's that's what I

thought. And then our fellow investigator, it really seemed to mess him up for probably a couple of weeks. I mean, I don't want to speak for him and his personal tragedies and stuff, but there was other things going on behind the scenes that kind of fed into that. But there is there is one more episode that I thought was kind of crazy. Now we probably all remember the Saint Augustine Lighthouse ghost Hunter's episode from way back in the day

with the shadow peeking over the stair way there. I always thought in a weird way that that looked like a cartoon. I was like, is that a cartoon or is that what the phenomenon? It's like, it's almost like what you would imagine seeing an aliens, like something you've never ever seen, can't comprehend and I'm like, is that what it looks like? Or is that fake? And then I saw the hotel Hall's England, I think is I think that's what it's called. And Hanes Alaska. For anyone who wants

to watch it's season thirteen, episode five. If ye described didn't happen, like exactly what the frame, just watched the whole episode for context. And also I didn't write that down. That episode just seems to be a hodgepodge of activity. And there are these white I don't know if they're white misty forms, but they gave me the same vibe as that Sant Augustine Lighthouse shadow figure, and I'm just wondering, I can't imagine being there, like what

the hell was that? Because it's so confusing to look at uh And if you guys know which part I'm talking about, those kind of white figures coming in, it literally like it translates pretty well on the episode. I mean the raw footage itself. I mean it literally looks like the scene from Beetlejuice where they're wearing the white sheet. Right, it looks so like but it's cliche almost. It's it's just when we first saw that. I'll never forget

that. Masapa and I were in the hotel room and he's like, dude, if you got to see this, I was like, what the actual fuck man like? And we knew what I mean, we know the environment really well. I mean, obviously this thing was really translucent and transparent, which made it even stranger. But the audio data we collected as well up

in that area made it even even more interesting. But it's just I have no clue what it was, especially being on the body cam is what it was collected on, and we have when we have those body cams, they run all night continuously, like they don't turn on and off. So we had this ridiculously long take and so it was it was really weird to see it when we were actually analyzing it. But that was a strange moment. I don't stop. It was up there with Daryl when that happened, and

that was pretty damn weird, pretty damn weird. Yeah, it was so one thing they didn't include in the episode because they just it was so so strange and they just I guess the editing team at Pilgrim they didn't they couldn't fit it in or they didn't know how to contextualize it or whatever the case

was. But in the lead up to Daryl capturing that apparition on his body cam, I started experiencing one of the claims for a few seconds that the guy with the interviewee that we talked about, you know, who had his experiences up there where there was moments of temporary like paralysis, like I couldn't move my arms for a solid like five seconds, And if you can't move your arms for five seconds, that might as well be five years, because

you don't know if you're gonna be able to move your arms again. I just could not move my arms. And then finally, like when I was able to break him free, I'm like, what the hell was that? And then Daryl's like what And I'm like, dude, like I couldn't, like I couldn't move my arms, and he's like, yeah, I feel attention to my lower back. And then that's when we started getting hits on the EDI of changes in barometric pressure. And then Darryl not once but twice

said that something charged him. So when we were going back to listen to the audio, the one bit of audio on the embisonic microphone that we picked up was a voice where it kind of sounds like somebody saying like it's me, it's me. It's this guttural, kind of like almost comically evil voice you would hear in like a movie. But that same voice before Darryl says I feel attention in my lower back, you hear that same voice say I feel attention to my lower back. And then it goes to Darryl saying I

feel attention on my lower back. As if this thing or whatever it was, predicted what he was going to say or influence what he was going to

say. I don't know, but it was just super super strange. And then something that they didn't put on camera because the film crew, I think they were doing a run with Kristen and Rachelle in another part of the property was we were in this one area and the stairwell right below that, and then Darryl and then Brandon had the EMCCD camera set up and fleear thermal imaging camera and we captured very strange visual anomalies in that area, and we heard

footsteps coming down the stairs and then that same translucent figure. Because I was just recording stuff on my cell phone at that point, just in case we captured something. I saw that same translucent figure in the corner in this one room where things were like weird, that same translucent figure on my cell phone camera footage, just chilling in a room. And then it was gone.

So that was a very very very weird, weird place. And I tell anybody like, hey, if you're ever good, if you're a paranormal investigator, you want to go to Alaska, Like check that place out, because there's something about that. I think the fourth floor of the Halls and Glenn Hotel and Haines, Alaska. That's it's creepy as hello four am and drop that down. Well, what's interesting is is Alaska in general. I give it you in portlack Alaska, Port lack Alaska, big Foot, the there's

a million UFO sidings of the triangle, the Alaska Triangle. There's no shortage of high strangeness in Alaska. So I find that I look for patterns. That's that's my big thing is trying to find patterns and what connect case is. My question is when you have a case, it's that jam pact. Let's say you go to the next night and absolutely nothing happens. How are

you guys preparing yourself mentally, and how are you keeping it entertaining? Because I mean, we all know ninety nine percent of our the time you're in the dark by yourself, nothing happens. So so from a I guess a television show perspective, how are you keeping the energy up going from you know, what might have been the craziest investigation ever to something completely dead the next night. Well, for me, I think that just explaining the process and

the methodology is entertaining. Right, Just going through the motions and trying to go in and recreate results or trying to find logical explanation to what you've captured, to me is entertaining. And I think that's where you can make entertainment value. And there is high entertainment value in the process and in the methodology and in the research itself. So for me, I never go into a

situation thinking about entertainment. I think about the process and the methodology, and I think that it all comes down to the fact that if you're you know, checking off all the boxes and following through with your methodology and your research, that is equally as entertaining is running around yelling dude brow with a spirit box. But maybe that's just me. I don't know, right, It's it's kind of like find your audience type deal. Well, no, it's

it's it really is. It's it's that simple, but it's that difficult because once the again just from an entertainment or like TV or perspective, when you have the lights on you and branding can attest to this. Even when we were doing like, you know, because we had a screen test for this, they you know, they flew me out to Burbank and a bunch of other people and they just wanted to see how you were going to perform under

pressure. Off camera. Everyone was a star. Off camera, everyone was you know, king shit, and they knew everything about the power and Roll. But the second the camera started rolling and they had lights on them, they froze because the only thing that they were going after was being entertaining.

But if you have something to say, that should mean something to you, And if you've been doing this work for a long time, or any kind of work, if you rely on just giving that honest take under pressure, your honest take on something and what you want it to be, what it should be for you or what you're hoping it can be and then in the moment showing maybe your disappointment that you're not getting off what you want to get off. All that stuff, which will happen if you're working. Everything else

falls into place, Everything else falls into place. I love that this is where everybody. Why the hell do we investigate at nighttime? Can any want to answer that? Because I well, well that's why. That's kind of my next question too, is at nighttime or in the dark, Like, what are our that? Right? Well, I mean for us, I mean on Hauntered Discoveries, you're gonna see multiple episodes where we do a bulk

of that work during the day. So it's not something we followed per se on, you know, according to the formula that is the shows from the beginning to now. But I think a lot of it if you were to look at it from a practical point of view, investigating the night's gonna cut down on as much contamination as possible. So for me, I mean, if you're looking at it from that point of view, you're gonna have less

traffic. You're gonna have buildings that are typically open as a business or a tourist attraction during the day that will be way quieter night and you'll have more access. But again with the Haunter discoveries and especially this last season, we just shot You're gonna see I mean four or five episodes where we started our investigations at two pm. You know, so there's gonna be a lot you'll see on that show. That's gonna show a lot of the work done during

the day. But we were lucky enough to be at locations where we had access to these locations and they were pretty isolated and didn't have a lot of contamination, so the night factor wasn't as big of a deal as some of these other locations would be. You know, you could have just said it's spooky and that would have been like, that would have been fine. Okay, Oh my god, Eric, what's your opinion? I mean, you go all over you you do these these group investigations. Why why are you

guys doing it at nice? I think, like Brendan said, for the most part, it's it's convenience. I mean, to do to do investigations at night with a group of people, it's it's entertaining. I mean, when when when people without bullshitting people, they come by ticket to investigate with us. We still have to be entertaining, because the truth of it is, we're probably gonna set the fucking dark five hours and nothing's gonna happen, And so you have to be entertaining somewhat and doing it in the dark.

People just scare the shit out of themselves right off the bat, especially people that aren't used to doing this. They're just scared of the dark, and they're gonna scare themselves and they're gonna get a kick out of that and they get a little adrenaline rush. But but I also think, like Brendan would say, and it just takes a lot of contamination out of it. You don't have a lot of traffic at night, you don't have you know,

a lot of the other light contamination things like that. I also think for me, I like it because I feel like it heightens my senses a little more. I'm a little more on edge. I think when it's dark, walking around the dark and I think I'm paying for myself, my body. I'm paying more attention to what's going on around me in the environment than the

people that are around me or the you know what environment I'm in. But yeah, the biggest thing is just the convenience and the keeping contamination now very very well said, So, Tyler, do you have anything else real quick for I want to get to our final topic? Well, going off of something that Stop said earlier about basically finding your own perspective. Oh, I thought you're you're gonna grinder compare profiles. No, no, this this isn't

only phantoms. Okay, it's the only place. I'm done. I'm leaving on that note. We'll talk after as the only as the only gay man in this chat right now, I've never evender, so I'm sorry. All of those aren't so lucky. Okay, over here in Jersey, man, Oh my god, Tyler, what were you going to say? Well? I have something that I kind of want to run by you guys about the double slit experiment, and I promise it won't be all scientificy and boring.

Well most of it won't. So do you guys care if I talk about that? For a second floor? Is yours? Okay? So we're probably all slightly familiar with the double slit experiment, but for the listeners, basically, your you're moving particles through two slits, and just imagine water going through two slits and how it would go turn into waves, and the waves kind of hit each other and it kind of looks like, I don't know, like fish scales. That's that wave pattern. That's normal. Now, particles

will do that unless they're being observed. So there's this big thing with does the observer affect the particles? If they're being observed, they'll just go, they'll group together through the slits, and when they hit the wall, you'll see that they're in two straight lines. Observation does change the behavior particles,

right, So that's that's a theory. But so my theory would be that I've thought about and this is a I thought I was being unique, but this has already been thought of. Is the equipment that is being used because obviously we can't observe particles, we can't see them. So it's the equipment that they're using to observe the particles, and I think of like IR light

and things like that. Are the electromagnetic emissions or anything that they're using to observe those protons and electrons because they literally some of the equipments I looked into, they have to grab the particles to know that they're there. They are manipulating the natural order the natural state of those particles, which I let. I'll let them and also answer that because the act of observing isn't just looking

with your eye. In order to see these particles, you have to use either certain lights or certain equipment manularly detected and measured, so you really don't need a human to be there. So what I'm what I'm focusing on is the conscious observer. Like if a human stood there without using the measuring equipment, we would never know if it happens because we can't use the measuring equipments. Kind of a paradox. So I got to thinking about that with paranormal

equipment. If if the equipment is disturbing the particles and collapsing their super whatever they call it, you'll have to google that. But if it is affecting particles, then could our ir lights or our regular lights or our radio frequencies be breaking up a a wave form or a wave pattern? And what if things, whatever things are, need to use a wave pattern because that's the way of nature. Everything seems to happen in waves too manifest and we're breaking

it up. And that's again why I like the EMCCD camera because again it's not penetrating or breaking up, it's just looking. So I just wondered if if you guys have ever thought about that perspective of the double slitter, or if you have any thoughts on it about us kind of penetrating and breaking up things by using light and other forms of frequencies. That's something we've talked about

with doctor Klore and actually tested in the field many times as well. And one thing we tested on and Discoveries, especially season one, is the observer affecting the environment not only from equipments, but also from you know, a

person's belief affecting the environments. That's something that we actually conducted an experiment with with Kyle Cadell and Daring West at the Bethlehem Academy with some research they've been conducting for a number of years and things that we've been working on, and we just came together for one big experiment to you know, project into the environment, I mean, and we're able to document anything around that and let

stop. I think there was probably some pretty interesting things that came out of that, wouldn't you say? Oh? Yeah? I Mean that's something that we're we're consciously kind of just going back and forth on. I mean even

just our presence in a certain area. Right when we're investigating, we're always toying with the ideas like, oh we kind of think there's something here, but you know, is the is the sheer fact that like we're just here, you know, kind of you know, influencing the environment or the activity there in some way. So, uh yeah, we toy around with that a lot. We'll leave places alone for a while, We'll go back and forth in Yeah, that's that's something that's constantly on our mind. We're we're

always thinking. We're always thinking like whenever we're in a place and oh is this dead here or not or whatever? So uh yeah, that we we work with that a lot. So this is where the conversation might descend or us end into esoterica. But I saw you guys published through Llewellen Worldwide, which we all know is mostly witchcraft and paganism. There definitely are haunted and

ghost hunting books on there. But with that thought of a conscious observer affecting matter, I think that that implies intuition and other things like that, which are deeply rooted in magic and witchcraft and other things. So with that being said, is there in maybe episodes we haven't seen, or in future projects a place for like spiritualistic seances or rituals or summoning things where you play with your intention or your belief in your investigation. Yeah, we did just that.

It's exactly what we did. Yeah, it's we're open to it, right, And we wanted to try and document the environment in every way, shape or form, and we want to look at that from different belief systems, utilizing our methodology and the way we can our research, but allowing others a space to do their work and allowing us to document that around them.

And that's something that we did do in the first season upon our discoveries and specifically bringing in a Spiritesi mode to come in and conduct a seance and to try and conjure a specific person that is said to haunt that exact place,

and we had great results. And again something we're open to and something that we're always trying to play with in ways that we feel comfortable with, but allowing others to do what they believe and their belief system, but finding that common ground of us working with our methodology and allowing these people to practice their own beliefs that's awesome. Yeah, I love that, and I want to kind of build off. So you mentioned Kyle and Darien, So Tyler and

I spoke about this briefly before the show. I want your opinion now that you live in Kentucky on the Kentucky Anomaly. We talked about this briefly when you're on the show. There is something about Kentucky. I don't think anyone that's been there as an investigative capacity can deny something is weird with Kentucky. And are you familiar with the official quote unquote official Kentucky Anomaly. Oh, yeah, yeah, I know. It's it's actually the main thesis of the

first season upon our discoveries. That's the reason we came here, and the reason we came to investigate very specific locations is because of the Kentucky anomaly, which mainly centered in Somerset, Kentucky, but it also extends out beyond that, and we did examine the NASA reports, the minimal reports that are out there about the Kentucky anomaly. And then bringing doctor Harry Chlorin. He his first PhD was in gravitational anomalies, so that's something that he is very familiar

with and did it? Did it actually look at the anomaly, the gravitational maps and everything. And at one point right was Stoppica. We're in Somerset. He started talking about gravity and some of his research and let let some slip out of it or glory thoughts with out of it. Yeah, it was. It was pretty great because we were interviewing him on camera and then he had he had rattled off some like numbers and figures and facts about an area, and our research that we were going by was from like I think

like a decade prior. And then there was like certain figures that we were talking about, and then he started like snowballing and we're like, oh, okay, cool, Yeah, we were looking at this and what about these figures and everything. And then he's like, oh, is that what your guys research said and we said yeah, and he's like okay, all right, and then he like continues with the interview and then right off camera and he like gets up, takes his micy off and he's like, I have

to check something. I think I said something I shouldn't have said and it's not declassified yet, and he goes back to his like laptop and everything. He's like oh thank god. Yeah, no, no, I can talk about it. And there were like jeez, Louise, like he had like access to some database or something that he was free to discuss this like knowledge that shouldn't have been public knowledge because you know he was I think consulting with

NASA and you know, working on some stuff with them. So that was a very very cool for me. It was my first time meeting doctor Korn person, so you know, I've read his work and I'm familiar with him and you know, interacted with him, you know, be a phone and email and stuff. But then like to see that, I was like, what a hell of an introduction to this guys. So it was super cool.

That's that's fantastic. So I can toss in one little I do this thing with because I'm too stupid to read like research papers and all that, so I just used chat GPT to summarize them. So it might not be perfect, but for anyone who was hearing this and doesn't think that the Kentucky anomaly is real or wasn't really researched by NASA, you can go to the actual dot gov website, like literally just google Kentucky anomaly and you'll find it.

But this is a summary of their report, which I could not read because of all their mumbo jumbo, but it says NASA found a strong magnetic region under Kentucky and Tennessee, larger than initially thought. It's magne ties similarly to Earth's overall magnetic field, suggesting it's not from an ancient quote unquote frozen magnetic field, which is something that can it's basically the way the Earth is

in that place can look like a signature of an ancient magnetic field. But that's a whole other That paragraph is longer than this one, and it's basically saying that it's not that. They use various tools and data types to come to these conclusions, so I could barely understand that the terminology that they were using, But it looks like pretty thoroughly they know that for some reason,

the gravity is stronger in that area. Very interesting. So the last thing I want to bring out, I'm sorry, go ahead, No, I was gonna say just one last thing, but that if you were just take a map and lay that over the magnetic map of that area in the gravitational pool in that area, you see all the strange shit that's been happening in Kentucky and Tennessee too, So it's it's a very interesting core relation. And you know, does it lead to some form of psychological effects or does it

lead to some kind of supernatural effect. That's that's what we were definitely looking into and hopefully have more answers than not. You know, again, it's tough, but it's very interesting that there's also a higher level of psychosis in those areas too, in Kentucky and Tennessee as well. Long story short, at the bell Wich is a hollow Earth alien. That's what these Yeah, well who wasn't Yeah yea, thank you for saying that. All right,

So the last thing I want to talk about. We could have gotten to lay lines and a whole bunch of other keep Kentucky weird. There's there's there's a million things to talk with Kentucky, but I want to get everyone's opinion.

I mean, we talked to Marco Visconti. I don't know if you guys are familiar, but he wrote the Alistair Crowley Manual, and we had a pretty in depth discussion when it came to the Satanic panic and the importance of mitigating that when it comes to paranormal research and paranormal content because as we spoke, you know, a couple times of the last hour and a half, there's so many people out there that just everything's a demon, everything has

to be the devil. Now we also know that some of that comes from upbringing. Brittany talked about growing up as a Southern Baptist, where everything is the devil, but there's also the other side of the coin, where this is where we can put our tinfoil hats on. But there's a level of control, and there's also a monetary benefit to pushing the demon narrative consistently. So I kind of wanted to get everyone a chance to kind of discuss their

opinion on the resurgence of the Satanic panic. It's definitely different because Tyler and I grew up small town, Ohio in the nineties. We had one terrible thing that happened to our town and we had a group one guy killed a

handful of young women and it was terrible. But after that, a lot of things change for me and a lot of my friends, where suddenly my parents were instead of being concerned about me being out too late or not being back by dinner, time, there was a concern that there was murderers everywhere and there was a cult. There was every town had a cult that was

taking children. And Tyler and I grew up with hearing these stories about River Road outside of Sydney, Ohio, where every kid heard the same story. Yep, there's colts out on River Road. They're stealing children and they're sacrificing stuff. Everyone kind of heard that. Then it kind of meant, you

know, went away, and now it's back. And I think with social media being what it is and information traveling a million times faster than when we were kids, I think we could be in this for a lot longer, and it could be a lot worse than it was during one point, oh for lack of a better term here. So I wanted to kind of get

everyone's opinion. Are you seeing this in your work that you're doing. Are you consciously trying to stay away from this and making sure that we are pushing the correct story, the correct narrative, keeping history first, or is it

kind of something we don't You guys aren't really factoring in. And again, Eric having his show Us Having Tales from the Dark, Tyler having hit his upcoming show it's something that I want to get everyone's unique opinion and perspective on because it is something that I think should be talked about a lot more, and it's going to be, in my opinion too late by the point that we address the ELpH in the room. Yeah, I just I just the

guess that I have. On my show this week, he said something that really that I laughed at, but it really made me think he's agnostic and I'm agnostic too, coming from the Bible Belt. And I asked him. He's been investigating for over forty years down in New Zealand, and I asked him, you know, if he's ever come across anything that he would turn demonic, and he said, it's funny how they don't bother you when you

don't believe in them. So I thought that was a very teelling thing because I've never come across anything like that either, and anybody that's talked to me though, that is my motto is if you're an asshole on life's probably got

be an asshole on death. And even even having a demonologist on my show, which he's the real Deality demonologist, but he's a parent on investigator too, and he'll tell you that a parent on investigating, he's never come across anything demonic, he said, through the church, because he works as a as a demonologist. You know, they see it all the time because that's who people go to when they think they're possessed or that haven issues like that, They go to the church. So he said, you know, he

sees it quite often there. But he said, in his twenty years of panelmal biscuit and he's never seen it. And I find it interesting. And then and then even me and Mustafa talked about before how when he was growing up, I think it was I think it was your dad, Mustafa, that anything bad that happened, it was the Gin. And so I think it has a lot to do with with your upbringing, in your cultural beliefs and religious beliefs. And I think there's lots of things to factor into that.

I think, you know, with going back to the said ten and panic in the eighties, a lot of that was kicked off by the true crime case to West Memphis three where the two kids went missing and then were found in a creek and horrible things that happened to them, and they charged these three kids. One of them has an IQ of like eighty. You know, he can barely form a sentence, let alone, and he falsely

confessed. Well, that got the other two convicted, and they because they were Gothic and things like that, played the Biji board, listened to heavy metal. They turned them, you know, Satanic worshippers, and they weren't they they they didn't have any kind of religious belie as far as I knew, and they were poor, and so they convicted them, and now they've been I think one of them took an Alfred plea which basically said I did it. But they vacated a sentence. And I think the other two you

got, got acquitted, got their their sentences completely vacated. And they never found who killed the two kids and did horrible things of them. But that was a huge thing in pop culture back in the eighties. I know that kind of kicked in the Satanic panic with uh, like I said, pop qution in general, because that became the poster case for there's a there's an epidemic of you know, Satanist and all this other things that really wasn't true.

And I think, and that's what I've been asking a lot of my guests, do you think we're going through a second wave of Satanic panic and and why they think that is. And I've gotten some really interesting answers, Like I said with with my guest Mark Wallbank said, what's funny how they don't bother you if you don't believe in them, you know, So some interesting perspectives out there of what's going on and if it's going to continue or

not. Brandon and the stuff. I have you guys noticed any type of like anxiety or anything around occult behavior activity or or anything you guys have tried during your investigations, like hesitance from the client not personally No, no, again, I know I see it more in the paranormal spaces with the YouTube shows and groups and podcasts and all that seems like that's all they can talk about. But I think what Eric just said, that quote from his guests

is pretty spot on. Again, I think a lot of that stuff stems from the Warrens and the Conjuring films. Is that faith based belief system that they had that every entity they ever own, no matter where they were, was demonic in nature. And I think that all goes back to their belief system and through pop culture and through people watching other people replicate this, I think it's kind of based a lot on the Warren's research, especially in the

paranormal circles. Yeah, and you have to remember that when they started out, Lorraine Warren was not a psychic. She just all of a sudden became a psychic. And and Ed Warren was a self proclaimed demonologist. He was never ordained by the Catholic Church or anybody else as a demonologist. They just came out of the woodwork and ordained themselves these two things, and that they

knew how to deal with paranormal and so yeah, I'm with Brandon. I think it has a lot to do with that too, because back in the eighties with Satanan fanik Yet and the horror come out which the family Let's family come out and said was true, and also the bullshit that is, you know, nobody else has ever had an issue in that house, so you know what I mean. The current owners even changed the iconic windows because they were tired of people coming to trample on their lawn. You know, people

can't find it anymore. They even changed the name of the streets so people would stay away from that house because everybody's lived there since then. I haven't had any problems, you know, well, and so it's yeah, I think it's it's people trying to make money. I think it was the warrants trying to make money back then. It's people trying to make money. Now I would agree with that, but y'all start to be careful about the whole

ordained thing. That's that's a that's a very weird thing to make important because I'm I'm more I I myself have been an ordained minister for a decade and I did it as a joke. I went online, took a three questionnaire and did it as a joke. So now you're going to heaven so real, hilarious. No, I didn't he to kind of, you know, as an early sites my Catholic my bringing in two so I could marry my

gay friends. That's the whole point of me being an ordained minister. My husband is ordained minister in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Postafarians, and he actually went and got that so that he could marry two of our friends and uh yeah, the Postafarians. Yeah. So no, when I say ordained, what I mean is he has he had no training whatsoever, none whatsoever the beliefs of the Catholic Church. I don't even think they

were Catholic, you know what I'm saying. And exorcism and possession and thing is kind of really a Catholic thing more than it is anything else when it comes to Christianity. And so he was just not he just he just said I'm a demonologist because he read a book or something. You know. There

was no deep research there. And that's and that's like the rain Warren was never a psychic before and then after they got a few cases in she all because all of a sudden has these fucking psychic powers and as a medium now and talk to dead people, you know. So yeah, I think what I meant when I said ordained was there was no he just said, I'm a demonologist without any kind of anything. If we apply this to if we just keep this to uh, paranormal investigation, I think the only real knowledge

is experience. There's only so much you can tell someone or teach someone. Orst you know, a story that you follow or a belief that you follow. If you stick to your experience, your first hand go into a place that's allegedly infested with demons, this is how I became as skeptical as I am. Go to the places that people say you can't go there and not experience something. I go there, I stand around, I try everything that

I can. Nothing happens because I ignore the stories. If I go in there and I'm believing the stories, and you know I and I believe every every shadow and every corner is what this person told me it was. I don't under I mean, I guess I do understand people that are like that, But you think after a while, you would realize you're not the worst thing that can happen. This is something I think about all the time.

The worst thing that can happen to me is I get killed by something supernatural and it's on camera and the whole world changes because it's the it's the most amazing. So that's not something to be afraid of. Like, what's the worst that's going to happen, right, Well, yeah, if there are people in there, that's that's a different story. But if that happens, then people just say it's fake because it's now it's a found footage. Yeah,

but it's all about me though. That's the important personal is university? Well, Brittany, what are your guys's opinions on Satanic panic two point OCAs. Again we've made I don't want to beat a dead horse here. I think it's back, and I think it's worse than the first time, but I want to make sure we get everyone's opinions. So do you think this is extremely important that it's addressed before it takes hold of all of our audiences individually this stuff, I'll let you go first. Okay, thank you,

man, I just jumped right in anyway. No, I think it just kind of, oh my god, this is going to sound like such a fatalistic way of looking at things. But I think it just kind of like our species in general, dating back to thousands of years. There's two camps of people there. There. There are individuals who really, really really like to focus on putting the blame of their inability to live a life that they're

happy with on certain external factors. Whether those external factors are practical everyday things that you know, get in the way of our happiness, like you know, I'm not getting a raise at work, or like I hate my job, or you know, the government, or you know my neighbor who just won't stop you know, cutting his freaking tree and everything gets in my lawn or to like there's this evil demon that's like causing me to do these things

and these supernatural forces and and that's why my life stinks. And and for the most part, in the early days of my paranormal research, it was mostly to help a lot of my family members and members of the Albanian Muslim community and then you know, our Muslim community and people around me that I knew through friends and family members who really kind of had held these superstitious beliefs.

And I use paranormal investigation almost as a sort of like not pageantry, but like a way I had interest in it, but I wanted to help them kind of get over these dependencies on external factors for being the reason why

they're leading lives that are making them unhappy. So I think that you know, you see, people have this really weird obsession with the horrible things that other human beings are capable of, because they just fucking love just toxic shit, and they just love bad stuff, and it's like they get off on it. They get off on it, schaden freud, whatever the hell you want to call it. So I think it's it's just a really crappy thing

that our species does. And then you have like Brandon mentioned the conjuring films or Eric and you mentioned the ambity of the horror movies or stuff like that, Like there's a reason why this this horror generates so much income and generates so much interest. People's obsession with true crime documentaries and stuff like that, Like some like you gotta watch this true crime document it's about this little girl got our head bashed in by like this adoptive family, like all this stuff.

It's like, I don't want to watch that, Like I don't want to see the beginning of the new It movie where this brother's crying out for his older brothers he's getting dragged to a sewer, Like I don't need to see that, Like I don't want to watch that, like for me personally, Like you know what I mean. So if it's an integral part of an investigation that we're doing, yeah we'll tackle that subject matter, but I

don't want to see that or think about it. Doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that that stuff exists, but I don't want to make my life about that.

And there have been times where, like you know, we've been been and I know we've been on the road for a long time when we've been going gnarly case after an early case, and like it's so important for us to just kind of like sit back and tell beef butt jokes or like whatever, or like watch the Lakers game and like just relax, to kind of like distance ourselves from that thing, to remind ourselves that like, yeah, there's there's amazing things about life as well. So yeah, I think I

think that's that's kind of what it's rooted in. If there if if you know, Bob, you do believe that there's like a huge resurgence and a more fortified interest in the satanic panic or more dark and macops subject matter. I think that's just kind of a reflection on where at large. Not to sound like the George Castanza mean, but that's what like, you know,

society is kind of going after now. It's like, you know, there's this what people are going for and they're very very obsessed with very very bad things, and that I think is just a circumstance of that larger phenomena. I think you also see that overlap in the paranormal community a lot with people who love horror and people who love the paranormal. And I think that could

also play into what Brandon was saying earlier about exploiting tragedy. It's like, if you're desensitized to these things, if you love horrible true crime stories, and you know, to each their own way, whatever, but these horrible movies stuff that I personally can't watch some of it just the story alone makes me resteckt to my stomach. But if you're desensitized to that, then of course you're going to go in a location and like flaunt this stuff like it's

the greatest thing in the world. I also think it's easy for all of us who are immersed in the paranormal world all the time to kind of get tunnel vision as well, because I know, until I started my podcast, you know, three years ago, I didn't have as many paranormal groups on my Facebook page, and I didn't go into these paranormal groups because I didn't give a shit, you know, I didn't I watched a few of the TV shows, I went out and investigated and did my thing, and really

didn't pay attention to paranormal and social media and didn't really pay attention to reading a lot of paranormal books and things because I was going out and doing it myself. But now with the podcast, I read a lot of paranormal books because I have the authors on and things, and I talk paranormal all the time. And even with the new podcasts that I'm doing, I'm telling stories.

And so I think it's easy to get tunnel vision when that's all your Facebook pages because of what we do, and that's who you're interacting with, and that's the ship you see on YouTube because you're you know, everybody and their mama asks you to subscribe to their channels and they want you to follow them, and they follow you. And so I think when that's all you see, I think it's easy to get that tunnel vision. And I will

kill that too. To working in emergency medicine for fifteen years like I did, and working in the er, I got tunnel vision sometimes that you know, fuck, everybody's sick, you know, you when you're immersed in that and working especially on the ambulance twenty four hours shifts and all you're seeing is the bad part of the world, it's very easy to get tunnel vision and

think, well, the world's just gonna shit and everybody's bad. No, everybody shooting everybody, everybody's stabbing everybody, you know, and things like that.

It's easy to get that tunnel vision. So I think it's important for us to kind of maybe refocus sometimes and get the hell out of the And I try to do this at least couple of times a week, to get out of the Facebook and in the social media's and all that stuff and do something completely different, just to kind of I don't know, palate cleans. I guess for me, it's true crime. And the reason it's true crime for me is not because I want to see BloodGuts and gore. I've seen

that shit and fucking person in real life. It's because I am fascinated by why somebody could do that to somebody else, the psychological part of it, sociological part of it, but because the true crime is completely to me, is completely different than paranormal. It's a for me to listen to a true crime podcast or something like that, it kind of gives me that downtime that

I need to not have tunnel vision. That Okay, the whole all the paranormal communities this way, they're all like look at me or it's all demonic or it's all this shit, and I find myself doing that as well, and until I have to kick myself in the ass and be like, no, that's not how it is. It's just the microcosm of a world that I'm in right now, and this is what people are doing, right.

You have to be careful what you put in your container, basically, no, absolutely, And that's something Brittany and I have talked about a lot, because you know, we have the Missing Person's Mysteries YouTube channel where all we cover is doom and gloom. The missing Person's shedding a light on the enigma that is what's happening in our national park system, so on and so forth.

So it's very easy to get lost down that rabbit hole. And is something that you know, I edited for the channel long before we took over, and something that Brittany, you know, she takes it like a chant. I used to have to like sit back and like, fuck, I need to watch some kids. I need to watch kids fall down on YouTube to feel better about what I just edited for three hours, like it sucks. And Brittany has a great way of having that filter up of this is

the story we're telling. This is why it's important, but I'm not gonna let it impact me too much. And I don't you know, I stn't want to hear your opinion on the Satanic panic, Britney. But that's something that we do have to deal with an our end and also take some accountability

for to not push that. You know, everything is terrible because there are you know, the missing person phenomenon is so it's so large, and it's something that we make sure that we never push the narrative of everyone's going to go missing the second you set for the National Park, You're fucking dead. We definitely go out of our way to ensure that we're telling the story in its most complete way, but we're also not pushing any kind of a fear

narrative just for the viewership. So I'm gonna throw it over to Brittany here. I mean, y'all really gave me a very large palette to sample from here, so I gotta jump around. So the first thing I want to talk about is desensitization. Jesus excuse me of everyone when it comes to social media and the things that we're consuming day in day out, advertisements, Twitter, you name it. It's all we are so overloaded with new information and with new issues, with new crisis, with new you name it, it's

coming out. So basically, what I'm trying to get at is that with that overload of information, it has caused us to change our mentalities of how we deal with our tragedies, how we deal with you know, something bad going on in the world, or even something good. And I have seen

that on social media across very different groups, particularly on Facebook. And one thing I want to talk about when it comes to the Satanic panic, and one of the reasons why I believe it is coming back, is because if you look in the conspiracy theories, and I know we're really getting in the crazies here, but if you look in these conspiracy theories groups, I have seen a trend from knowing conspiracy theorists years and years and years ago to now

where everything has turned into demons, everything has turned into the devil, and it's turned into these secret cults and secret occult rituals. Now. I know that is a very small portion of the entire nation, in the entire world.

However, I will say that having interactions with people who have nothing to do with high strangists at all, paranormal, UFO, cryptids, occult what you name it, are starting to use occult references or rituals or the Illuminati, for example, which has become very mainstream as excuses for bad things happening.

I find that when we are regularly using these excuses, and we are, we are desensitizing that excuse it, it's gonna escalate, and then it's gonna get worse, and then it's going to turn into persecution for people who practice those rituals or for people who don't believe the way that you believe.

I do see this as a trend that's going to get worse and worse and worse until we eventually fix it. How I don't know, but I do think, especially in the occult community, we are trending towards something a little dangerous here. I think all we need is just a constant, you know, once a day everyone gets a voice text message of Eric just saying, hey, it's all right, that's it. The world's world, the world's not ship like all right. I believe you. I don't know who you

are. I see what you're saying, Brittany, but I think for me growing up in the as a gay man for one, growing up in the Bible belt, the buckle of the Bible Belt. I've heard it my entire life that everything's demons because I'm surrounded by Church or Christ in Southern Baptist and you know, the Church Christ think the Southern Baptist going straight to hill and the Southern Baptist Church Christ scoring straight to Hill, and they hate each other,

you know, and they're screaming about the same things. So coming from culture in the South, and you're from the South as well. But I think just growing up where I did, it's always been that way. And then I still get the ship when I do any kind of event out here or people will catch me out in public, they always want to talk about demons and always want to tell me what I'm doing is demonic and there's no

such thing as ghosts or spirits. They're all demons. And you know how many times I've been scolded about a little granny at the fucking grocery store because she heard through the grape vine that I do the paranormal. So I, you know, I just I've been in that my entire life, so I don't I haven't seen a change or an uptick. Yeah, I guess is what I'm getting at. You know, No, I completely get that, and I agree with you as well. I mean, every growing up,

everything was the devil. You know. My mama would tell me the devil made me do it. That was one of the most common like phrases in our entire household. Was the devil made me do it, and not today's satan and not today's satan. I said that so much, Oh my god. But anyway, No, you're absolutely right, and it is something I was and dated with growing up, and I completely understand where you're coming from.

I think my point of view kind of pulls more away from paranormal and goes more into a spiritualistic side of things, just because we research so much when it comes to the occult, you know, we research all branches of high strangeness, paranormal, cryptids, UFOs, and a cult, and so I think that my views on the occult kind of led into this paranormal satanic

panic discussion as well. But yeahs as someone who also is in some online occult circles and and some people that I know, I don't personally see it, I think it could be a matter of perspective, and I as far as the Satanic panic coming back, and I think we have something that they didn't have in the eighties and nineties, which is limitless information and an ability for everyone to have a platform like as much as as much bad that that

comes with we have. Eric was talking about the West Memphis three. One of those guys is Damien Ekels, and he is a ritual magician. You know, he was like famous for he was hanging out with Johnny dep and stuff, and he's trying to get out. He credits magic for getting him out of prison. He was on death row for eighteen years solitary confinement.

But now he has an online following. He talks about high magic and what it really means, and he's shedding light on what happened to him back then when just because he listened to Metallica or whatever and had black hair, they thought, oh, you're the devil kill children. So there's a lot in my circles. I see it as like a positive, yeah, like a beautiful thing that's like showing people this is what it really is. It's based in nature, it's based in spirituality and all this kind of stuff. So

once again I think we have an antidote. We can't subtract things just like our thoughts. We can't subtract bad thoughts. If we try not to think about something that's all we think about. We can only add positive thoughts. And I think in society or culture, just keep piling on the positive shit and hopefully the rest will just kind of drown in that. Well, I think that's a great point to end on. Just before we go, Eric

Brandon Mustafa, where can we find more of you? I know we have a We've Hunter Discoveries to spin off if you want to talk about that real quick. And I want to just make sure that everyone knows if they want more Eric, where can they hear that voice some more? Well, anywhere

you go listen to this podcast. And also I'm kind of wanted down Unseen Paranormal podcast for the season, but there's like one hundred and forty episodes, and I'm kicking up my new podcast where I narrate three stories a week from different authors that I've gotten permission to use their stories, True paranormal stories, true stories, and missing people, weird true crime, all kind of a cob things has strangeness, just anything strange and it's called Strange Chapters and it'll

be on all podcast platforms and YouTube as well. But I'm all over social media as well, so come say on Facebook or Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn. Yeah, we have a new spinoff series of Haunt of Discoveries. Mistop

and I are going to start shooting a couple of weeks from today. But it's called Hunt of Discoveries Family Spirits, and it's about people that have come in contact with their deceased loved ones and relatives and where we're telling that through a testimonial type show where we not only speak about these experiences they've had with their deceased relatives, but also recreating that and also diving into the genealogy behind their family's life and how does that connect to what we call, you know,

the ghost gene So we're excited about that show and we're excited to announce more once we have more information about where you can watch it, and I can't wait for that. So what about you, Tyler, what do you have going on apart from Phantom Farm. Well, if you want to follow someone who never posts on social media, you can follow at Tyler Terry now on Elon musk Land or whatever it's being called now Instagram or whatever, you

know. I haven't even started filming, but working on a series called Finding Nothing that is not dissimilar to what Brandon just described. I'm kind of diving into my family history. I have family from and around Harland, Kentucky, like Lecture and Cumberland Gap in places like that, going to go down and kind of get all their stories. They're all getting older, get their stories

and some history behind it, and kind of study the land. And of course, like every white family in the South, they think we're related to famous Native Americans. So I'd like to get into some genealogy stuff and capture that process. If this is what true, this is what's not. And I just think there are many avenues to explore that's not just paranormal, that can be very entertaining and relatable if I keep it personal and honest. So

that's what's coming. But like I said, haven't you started filming? Just getting everything together for that awesome well. I appreciate everyone for joining. I know we went a little longer than we expected. I know everyone has a busy schedule, so thank you all so much for joining. We'll have to do this again. I can't wait to meet everyone at the Tennessee Hanson Legends Expo. And that's all I've got. All right, Well, Brittany and Tyler, that was a lot of fun. Was it what you guys expected?

That's that's what I really want to know, because I didn't have any expectations going into this. No, I really didn't either. I'm not sure what I was expecting, but I'm pleasantly pleased. I think we had a really good conversation about the paranormal. I also didn't have any expectations. I just thought it was really cool and they were really chill and open about everything.

So yeah, it's always nice to see because there's there's We talked about the gate keeping in the paranormal way too often, so it's nice to have the the opposite of that. I kind of knew what we were getting into anyway, from doing homework on those guys, so I had a feeling it would be like them, Well, good deal. So unless you guys, either of you this is weird. Do Tyler or Brittany have anything else to

add? No, I'm done, I do not. All right, Well, is that being said, we're going to add our first paranormal round table to our never ending, never ending, but are always growing, always growing tails from the dark the