Our Strange World With Marco Visconti

M he was called cold. That was he was cold, Barn. What's going on up there? Could be the most important event in history? Now I am coll destroy our worlds, I said. I hope this is close to hell. It's all never again. Hello and welcome to the TALESM a Dark podcast. I'm your host, Bob. You're with my lovely co host Brittany. Hey, guys, what's up Brittany? How is it going today? It's going good? How are you? I mean you sound exhausted?

It could it be the fact that I forgot to turn the air conditioner on in the studio again, Yes, that's absolutely that fact. Actually, may it also be coupled with the fact that it's currently like eight forty five at night and it's still ninety degrees outside. It's also that as well. Yeah, something about this year's heat wave. I'm telling you guys, it has been I don't remember anything quite like this where it's this hot in the early

evening like this. Yeah. But with that being said, miss Britany, we have a very exciting guest today, Yes we do. It's been literally months in the making. Ye. So when it comes to certain books, I think I set myself up for failure where I'm like, you know what I used to read a whole Harry Potter in three days doesn't really apply to

a moderns for one. Yeah. But this book, like I said, it's been months in the making, where we reached out to Marco months ago and we're like, hey, we would love to have you on the show, just give me a few days to really go through this book. And I remember the look on your face when you got it. You got about seven eight pages and you're like, hey, hey, this isn't going to be just a few days. No, oh god, no, no it was. It's a study and it has homework, and it's a work book

for sure. It's that and everything else in between. Because I do know that you had a very interesting response when you first got into the book. You're like, you know, I actually understand some of this and it's making

me crazy. And that's how I knew it was like, Oh, this is gonna be some good shit, because you approached anything with the occult and mysticism and magic with a very weird, like scientific approach of like, well, it's a direct contradiction to everything I ever study when it comes to magic, and it's so hilated because when I have a question about the stuff, You're the first person I asked like, Hey, how does this stef Roth really interchange with this one? You're like, well, the second law of

motion doesn't really fucking apply here, but this is how it works. And I'm like, okay, perfect love. It makes me angry, and that's one thing. It really does take me a long time to study different aspects of a coal and magic because I'm angry about it. I'm very very angry about it because I'm like, this shouldn't fucking work. Yeah, why am I even studying this? Holy shit, this fucking works. That's that's what I loved when it was so weird when you initially were like, I think

I want to try this. I want to I want to see how deep this rabbit hole goes. And now you're still digging deeper and deeper and deeper. Yeah, so real quick, before we give Marco a call, though I want to give a we don't give a whole lot of like media suggestions here on the show. Go watch Cave of Bones on Netflix. Oh, that was very very good. The idea behind the homeowner Letty recently discovered species. It would it be it'd be a species, right, it is a

species. The idea between the homo. I don't want to give anything away. It's pre homo homo sapiens. Yes, and this definitely challenges the the spirituality of man, for there's no other real way to say it. And it's extremely interesting because they don't approach it to bash a religion or a faith, or they don't see like, hey, Christianity is a fucking myth because

we discovered this species. Now, the whole point of this was evidence of belief of life after death in some form some way, whether that be resurrection, whether that be Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, what have you. It doesn't matter. It is the evidence itself, the ritual itself of celebration of life after death. Yes, that is very very important, especially in these very very primal prim primate subspecies. Yeah. So, and it's

interesting because it raised question because I correct me if I'm wrong. But there was a point in the show where they had sent either photos or maybe parts of the ex exo skeleton other specialists. You said, yeah, Homeo Nalletti's brain was too small to do something like bury they're dead and then they discovered

proof of it. And that's what's bizarre to me, because I do want to kind of explain why it's interesting, because I watched some online reviews and people are like, yeah, this is all staged, and I'm like, which part is staged? And then you listen to their review they think that these people man made this cave that they found the Noletti in, and that

these are hundreds of years old stalactites and slag mine. Apparently it's all man made, and that they had filed down bones of earlier Homo sapiens and put them in here in in order to like spite. The Catholic Church was a lot of the explanations being done, and I watched a few church sermons that are like, yeah, if you guys watch us in our congregation, you're to hell. Even I can't save you. And I'm like, hang on

a second. That was a very like direct threat. Show me, show me an exodus where it says you can't learn about the home on Aletti please someone. Now, the impact of that being true would be the fact that it's not just religion that's involved. We are still actively learning our own human

history. To this day, we learn things new every single day. Yeah, and not only that, but one fact that I like to talk about that I was actually told in high school it's either within one or two years, history and science books become irrelevant, like printed textbooks that you use with your children who go to school. Within one or two years become irrelevant because we learned so much new stuff and how different things intertwined, how different things

worked. That it's it's pretty fascinating how much we don't actually know, so to lie about a whole subspecies would be damning for the entire scientific community, not just religion. Absolutely, and it kind of build on that. When I went through college and I got my degree in business management, they don't even teach. What's kind of funny is we watched the what was the movie The Big Short where they discussed subprime mortgages in prime I hold recession of two

thousand and eighty. Yeah. The way that I was taught, how that all went down versus what actually happened was obscure and out of date within a year of of me finishing my degree. That's what That's all. It shows, like how fast knowledge changes and something is simplistic as business, So when you're discussing something like the human brain and an expansion of consciousness. It's no

telling how fast these things change. And now let's apply that to magic, because we are in a ever evolving, ever changing society of different magicians, different magicians, different ceremonial magic. And Thelma, which is one thing we actually taught we will talk about today with Marco, is the fact that Thelma is basically brand new in the grand scheme of things. So let's give him a call. Let's do it, all right, miss Britney. So we

are joined by Marco Visconti, the author of the Alistir Crowley Manual. And there are a few people that I hold an extremely high regard when it comes to this topic, and realistically Alan Greenfield's about it. So to get a chance to talk to Marco, I'm extremely excited. So I'm I don't want to waste anywhere else as time. So Marco, how are you doing, buddy? Well, thank you for the fantastic introduction, and it's great to be here. I'm fine here in London. We kind of skipped summer.

We went straight back into into otumn, which is not ideal for my Italian bones. I need some system sun right about. Hopefully August will be will be better. But apart from that, everything is fine. I'm glad to be here, glad to have you. Yeah, absolutely so. I want to jump right into it. The when I saw your book first advertised on Twitter, I was like, holy shit, this is going to ruffle some feathers. Oh yeah. The first off, kudos to you for printing it

in hardback. There are too many occult books that are printed in, you know, the softcover. And nothing against the printing agencies or what have you, but if you're gonna use it as an essential tool in your tool kit, it's hard to kind of take a soft cover everywhere you go, especially if you're traveling, if you're doing any kind of magic and a different area beside your home, it's hard to take something with you that's a softcover.

I would agree with you. I was very very happy when Watkins, which is my publisher, told me that the book would be on hardcover. Of course, you know you've seen it it is. It is a mass market hardcover right in the sense that the paper is not like the best paper out there. The art coover the core itself is not like the best, like fine leather, which is you know there you got this um, this tendency in occult publishing that either you have super cheap paperbacks or you have super high,

high hand expensive hardbacks. I was very happy that Watkins was keen on doing pretty much the middle of the road. Right. This is a manual. This is something that I hope people we read. But I hope people we used to uh to do magic, you know, to practice magic, and so you know, as you said, having something that's a little bit sturdy and maybe I don't know, if a candle walks, you know, goes onto it, you can scrub it off. It doesn't burn that easily.

That's better. And yes, maybe that happened to me a couple of times over the years. We'll talk about its catching fire. Now. It's hilarious because I reached out to you basically as soon as the book was available for purchase. I think I actually I reached out right when it was announced for like pre purchase, and I said, yeah, give me a few weeks, Marco, I want to have you on the show. I want to discuss this. And then I got it and I was like, Okay,

this isn't a few weeks. This is a few months, and then a few months goes by and I'm like, this might be a few years. Let's just Marco on the show now. So I think I forgot about because it's it's not like a you know, a novel that's a you know, cover to cover read. You just do three chapters a day and you're done. It's very much a workbook, but it's also a workbook, and you can get lost very easily, like where you're thinking, I'm gonna do

ten pages, Oh I've done sixty. What the hell happened? I got so enthralled with what was being written. So I gotta give you some credit for that, and also just some major thanks for sticking it out and still coming on the show after several months. I'm not hearing back from us. Oh you know, first of all, don't worry about that. Like you, you've you've been fantastic in the sense that I could tell you stories of people that you know, contacted me as you did right away and then completely

ghosted me. I don't know if maybe they read the book and they realized that there is a little bit of you know, controversyinda in here and in the book, especially at the end when I speak about, you know, magic orders and if you should join them, and what I noticed in them.

I'm gonna get a little bit spicy from this very beginning, but I noticed in the in the podcast milieu, especially in Europe not so much in the States, is that people want to really be on the good side of everybody, which it's kind of hard to be if you ask me, right. So anyway, the long story short, I'm I'm very I knew you, I know that I would be here at some point, and I'm happy to be here. You know, a long lass, and it's not even

a lot of lass, because you think about it. The book came out in February, and so it's what six months now, right, six months later, But if you think about it, the book itself tells you that if you stick to the plan that is provided by the by the lessons in the book, that would that should the last six to nine months. So we're right on schedule. It's exactly well. And I also want to applaud you for being approachable because I want to tell you this quick story totally the

podcast. A few times, I've only met a handful of self proclaims Elamites out in the wild, so to speak, and it's like a pokemon, you're trying to catch them. But we were. We were on a trip down to New Orleans, Louisiana, and very early on, so the early timeline, I think this is twenty twenty when we went down there and had this experience. So this is the first year of us having Tales from the

Dark. Yeah. So we make a trip down to New Orleans, and I was just interested in the hoodoo culture and just getting to soak everything in, you know, because there's New Orleans is such a beautiful miss miss mishmatch of just so many different types of magic and so many different types of people and cultures. Yeah. Yeah, and we so I'm like, let's go look first esoteric shops. Let's look first miss shops to maybe get some cool books. And I had made the mistake and I said, do you have

anything written by Alistair Crawley? And this woman her ears peak up, her face gets read and she goes, it is not Crowley, it is Crowley, like holy, and that's how I know that you don't know what you're talking about. I was like, whoa, oh wow, that's a lot. I'm just and I said no. She went on this twenty minute escapade about how wrong Bob was, and I sat there in the corner. I'm like, I'm just gonna look at the books and pretend I'm not with him.

I will let him get scouted. Well, and I explained to her, said, I'm very new. I wouldn't even call myself initiated. I'm in the pre initiation phase where I'm interested. And she's like, well, this isn't where you start. You do not start here. This is not this is Crowley is not for beginners. This is where you end. And I'm like, Okay, this is horrible. And if anyone else had this experience, I would understand why they'd be like all felamites or jackasses, and

I'm not dealing with them period. Well, come to find out from a magic shop that once we went back to New Orleans, we went the next year, went back to win to another magic shop. She was actually excommunicated from her from her her con Yeah, the the she was with two minor orders down there, and they kicked she was kicked out of both of them for being terrible, for hexing folks, for just being not a good person to have around. You know, I wonder if I know this person,

and it might be that I do know who we're talking about. I've been to New Orleans a couple of times in my life a lot, one of the most beautiful and weird cities in the world, and it's it's one of those places that where magic is so steeped into the culture and and so it's still living in the you know, in the everyday culture that you get all sorts of strange personalities and ego and narcissism, et cetera, et cetera, exter which subtly, in my experience, it's you know, part and parts

of the occult life, right, yeah, um, the you know what the part The problem with Telemites, first of all is that they exist, I would say, But the second point is that a lot of Telemites really aren't like they're more like Kroeites in the sense that they really want to be krow A two point two. They really want to live up to Kroe's shenanigans

and often horrible personality. Kroe was a very complex human being, without doubts, a genius, a polymath, but also somebody that I don't think I would have ever wanted him as a friend or even as an acquaintance, right. Um. It happens with a lot of in history. We know that a lot of most of the times, the like incredible genius tend to be

difficult people to to to deal with and to to live with. Um. And what suddens me is that if in my direct experience as yours, right, a lot of Telemites really want to be like him in the sense that really want to be unapproachable. There's almost like this area is or of superiority and what you what you what you just told me. It's something that I've

seen it happen countless times. And you wouldn't believe how many, uh you know, bad bad reviews, death threats and other things that I got because of the book I wrote, obviously, but in general, because I try to be uh you know, I try to leave all this this chroleanism behind, and I try to remember that Krowle himself wanted Celemma as a magical philosophy of the New Eion to be for everyone. These people tend to forget that.

In the introduction of magic with magic interim practice liber Aba, which was Chrole's attempt at creating its magnum opus books Book of Magic for the Masses. In the interaction, he says this, and I, you know, I reported this in my own book. He says that, you know, he wants magic to be for everybody, for the banker, for the pugilist,

for the housewife. Of course he failed doing that, because if you try to read magic interim practice, well good luck if you understand anything, having you know, no background whatsoever in an occult in utica, any magic chrole. You know, Chrowley really expected so much from its readers because he was this genius poly mouth, right. But um, I would argue that when you know, when this person told you that maybe you shouldn't start with Crowley,

maybe that was true up until my book. And that's I'm going to be a little bit like this. But I do think that I really wanted to focus on the things that everybody can do from from the get go, right like if you don't know and if you don't know anything about magic, I hope that you can, and I think you can. You can get

my book and you can get on with the practice. I don't expect every anybody to, you know, read the book once and say, oh I got everything right, because as you know, having read the book, I get into place, into moment, into parts in the second part of the book where I speak of tell them a proper that they get very philosophical. And unless you unless you have a background in philosophy, or unless you've been reading on the subject for a while, it can get a little bit confusing.

Also because tell Thema is confusing by nature in the sense that Crowley did a lot to try and flesh it out, and the people that came after Crowley, uh, they added their their bits and bobs. But Crowley, sorry, but tell Themma really is a very young philosophy. It is meant to be, you know, the philosophy of the eon of the child and maybe this idea of you know, childless childlike wonder, which is not always very clear, right, It's a bit ephemeral. It's almost like encoded in

the in the philosophy itself. So I wonder if we can finally move into you know, into for real, into a new eon where people can wander into a metaphysical shop and not having to be rebuffed because they haven't read all the material all they say Crowley, I mean, yeah, I mean. Crowley famously said my name's rhymes with holy and not with Fowley. But at the end of the day, it's a name who cares. Yeah, yeah, I love that approach because we have this to this day. I actually

I want to throw a few things actual real quick. For one, I'm using two workbooks on the regular, your book and then Cabala Magic and the Great Work of Self Transformation by Liam Thomas Christopher. I want to say, what's interesting is you're you both had a very similar approach in the beginning, which was you're going to get what you put in and you can do it

at your own pace. And we have an entire bookshelf full of these self transformation books or books that are you know, to approach the topic, and none of them, yeah, none of them really say like, do this at your own pace. It's if you don't, if you don't do it at this level and you're not here in three months, you have to start all over and you're terrible, and it's it's it was a very big, like breadth of fresh air to read through yours, like, oh, this

is completely okay to not understand something. It's completely okay to approach it with a modern mindset in comparison to I have to go through three hundred philosophy books, figure out who this guy was as a person and figure out his diet on a Tuesday to understand the approach well from also, and I kind of wanted to hear your thoughts on this, Marco. Was that especially connecting to

the Felamites that we were just talking about. I feel like the whole point, especially after reading through and working through your manual, is that we're supposed to expand upon magic. It's not setting stone. None of this is setting stone, and that is something that we all have to actively work towards bettering. It's the new software specifically that is making me say this is that you can't just be stuck on just Crowley. It's not his word, isn't God,

his word, isn't fact. It's something to build off of and expand upon and even in some cases change if it's no longer useful to the system as a whole. Yeah, I mean, like you know, this is definitely my approach to that, and I think it's the approach of a lot of those work with Crowley system and so in Telemma and left Mark on Telemict,

I'm thinking Frederi academ thinking of Kenneth Grant Nemah. You have to remember also that there is all there's another side of Telemites out there that really fight against this almost like secularization attempts, in the sense that they really want to believe the fairy tale that you know, Crowley was the profit of the Nunion, which is something I believe, Like, I mean, Crowley was the profit of the union, but for the way I see the term profit,

it was someone who opened the door and you know, received messages, try to decode the messages and left the door open after he died, right where for this the other the other side, the other type of Telemites, which suddenly they are the ones that you tend to find into organize or groups like or the Temporarientis or the AA. They really want to believe that Crowley was Jesus to point out and so because you know, the idea is that if Crowley was used to go into and so it was you know perfect, you

have to like stick to what he said to the letter, etc. Etc. Well, if that is true, then they're not doing you know, they're not pursuing you know, pointlessness because you know they have some sort of divine right. Um, that's bad. That is there to back their efforts in in towards spiritual evolution. That theory is Oh, I'm so sorry. I was just gonna say that theory in itself seems to abandon the main mission

of finding your true will exactly. I mean, that's exactly what I was going to say, right, Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupts you. That's the first thing I thought of. No, no, But but you got it. I mean, that's that's precisely it, you know. Famously, Crowley also said that he didn't want to father a flock like

literally in his in one of the famous quotes that you find online. But fame so you repeated many times that you didn't want to have to have, you know, mindless drones after him and low and be old whenever you forsake securitism in trying to enshrine absolute religious religious or ugiosity. If you want, then what you get you get flox, You get you know, drones, and you get people that we doubt, you know, a true master guiding them, even if it's dead. But you know, like knowing that that

this person was almost like anointed by the divine. Well, then whatever they do, it's pointless. Whereby Telemma is really about recognizing that each one of us has this divine connection to the Godhead. Right. Telemma famously says, you know, every man, every woman is a star. It's one of the famous aphorism from the Book of the Law. This aphorism has been used multiple times in many ways, and item believe that this in this phrase implies

that everybody knows their true will from the very beginning. Everybody is divine from the very beginning. Then he pretty much, I don't have to do anything. You're fine, right, everybody has the potential. Everybody, regardless of race, gender, situation in life. You have the potential to strive towards it. But it's your will, not Crowe and not you know, other gurus, not mine, not other writers. You know. Um, I like to say that every time I speak about these subjects, I'm really,

I'm really, I'm not. I'm not a guru. I'm not. I really don't like the term teacher really much. Maybe tutor is better, right, personal trainer. If you want to see this as a metaphysical gym, I can be the person that can tell you how many reps you have to do, which machines to use if you want to build up yourself right, believe it or not. This my position, this one that I just communicated.

It's seen as absolutely heretical. Wrong. There must be some sort of strict hierarchy, there must be masters, there must be you know, annoying to teachers et. I mean to me, that's as anti technical as the tenets of Telemma as it gets. But hey, what can I say? Like we really are in the infancy of this magical philosophy. Next year it will be one hundred and twenty years since the reception of the Book of the Law, which, of course hundred twenty years from our limited human perspective or

it's a long time. But in the grand scheme of things, that's what that's a second right. So if Telemma will survive as long as Buddhism or Christianity or Hinduism, I've survived and time hotel one hundred and twenty years, it's nothing right, it's dropped about early. Yeah, I mean, I

study other religions the first underd and twenty. We barely know what Christians were doing in the first hundred and twenty years, right, the Gospels started to be right to be written down between forty two hundred years after the alleged death of Jesus Christ, if he ever existed as a you know, as as a real person. I really believe maybe there were more Jesus christis that, you know, get conflated into one individual. But that's maybe for another day.

The point is that, you know, we know that one hundred and twenty years of Christianity, pretty much nothing happened, Like a lot of him fighting happened, a lot of different ideas were going. Christiani was going many different directions, and pretty much this is what episode has been happening here as

well. We will see, I mean we won't, but in maybe in two hundred years, it's going to be interesting where Telemma will be in two three hundred years, if if if, if it did survive, and so if the promise of the new Ian was a true promise, right, something

that eventually manifested itself fully. Um, of course, you know, talking about Ian's I speak about briefly, but I guess quite clearly in the book about what the concept of eonyx is, which really comes from many different uh precursors maybe in case of Crawley, the more direct was Darby's dispensionalism, where pretty much the idea is that you know, after you know, with each passing, with the passing of time, new new spiritual laws are enshrined and

shared with humanity, and the new ways of UM, you know, achieving spiritual evolution became available. That's what when I speak about the ion of Horus or the ion of the child, or the telemic here I'm speaking about. You can think of it as you know, a new operating system that it's being installed onto the the universe itself, right, and you can always use all the operating systems, but maybe if you want to get all the better UM you know, the best apps or the best the best programs and whatnot,

you want to use the UM. The last one. The problem with you know, with the current overating systems is they usually they're full of bugs and those bugs need to be you know, ironed out over over time. And that's exactly the problem with Telemma. It's new. It offers you a lot of new and fancy things to do if you know how to use it, but there's a lot of you know, environments and still experimentation that needs

to be go and the bugs that needs to be squashed out. No. Absolutely, Now do you think any of the gate keeping the you have to be an annointed teacher comes from Crowley being You know, he did self proclaim that he was a Magister templi at the end, meaning for those who maybe are informed. Basically to my understanding, he's on the same level as the Secret Chiefs at that point, and I believe he got there after the Inokian

calls an Algeria. I might be mixing some of that up, but do you think that because he was on this level of the Secret Chiefs, we're kind of intertwining the the the order of the Golden Dawn. That's why some people are saying you have to be an annointed teacher or else this guy is

just full of shit. Well, uh long, you know, to answer your question straightforward, yes, in the sense that Crowley Krey really did to believe in um, in the idea of of this line of initiation that comes um you know, unbroken from the ascended masters, right, and the idea of the ascended Masters comes from theosophy, and theosophy got this idea from Hinduism

pretty much. Okay, the idea where you have like the the avatars of the of you know, Ava Kishvara, which is you know, this um almost like this guide of humanity that in times always comes back in different incarnations to guide humanity to spiritual evolution. These ideas get filtered into the also, you get filtered to the Golden Down, gets filtered into Curley. Curley really

did believe these things. You're right, he achieved the grade of Magister Temple after the receiving Libert four hundred and eighteen, or the Vision and the Voice in Busada, in the desert of Algeria, with Victor Neuburg undertaking, you know, extensive sexomagical operations, a lot of drugs. That's where the incredible

visions come from. By the way, obviously, you know when you are in a heightened state of consciousness, deep transits, and maybe you're also ingesting psychedelics, that's where you get those crazy visions that that really I mean, And it was great because it was able to translate those into the page.

Now, that wasn't even the highest grade the Cruley claimed for himself. He claimed to have gone further, like in the in the Scheme of the grades of the Golden Dome, which are mirroring the map, the map of reality given by the Tree of Life over Medicabala. You have, well you have ten sef ten visible sefarot and one invisible sefera. That is that, and

then of course each grade is mapped onto one of those sefarots. Well, he claimed to have gone past Bina, which is you know, the sea attributed to the Magistra Temple or Master of the Temple, and then he went into Hochma as Amegus and even took a tir as an epsisimus. Now, if you ask me, if you really understand what it means to achieve those

levels of consciousness, it's impossible for anybody who's embodied in a body. Sorry for the obvious recursive there, but if you're embodied, you cannot really be a magister template because the magister template are the ascended masters, are the ones who left this mortal coil behind, and when they come back to guide humanity, they come back in um in subtle forms. Right, yeah, exactly in that. You know, that's the same for a magus, that the

same even even more for an absisimus. So you know, some people will argue that the grades of the AA, and so the ones that Croa was using, well they almos means that, you know, when you get to a higher level of adapt tod so you've known your you're known your true will, and achieve the knowledge and conversation of the hoy Garden angel in Tifferet, you become an adept. Then you have a little bit more work to do, because in Tiffert you're perfectly balanced. But then you have to unbalance yourself

by achieving you know, and then cassatt on the tree of life. From that point onward, if if you keep you know, working, you can have glimpses of higher degrees and grades, and you can embody them, but to truly embody, you know, to truly achieve them while still embodied, I don't know. So, for instance, what I'm telling you sorry for the tour, it's that I don't know. If Crowley was a magister templary right, he definitely claimed to be. He claimed to be more than that.

He was most certainly a very high adept on adaptus exemptus. That's the term of maybe even further in the in the in the term of the AA, which is the magical order that he founded as the continuation of the Golden Down. He was a babe of the Abyss. That is, you know, somebody who's like ready to jump into the abyss. But a lot of people make a big fuss out of this, which is so interesting to me because it's how we get everyone online in this day and age to claim that

they can jump the abyss from the get go. When I first started my magical path, it was made very clear to me that you would have to work for many years to balance the elements, get to know who you are, how you work in correlation with the universe around you, and then after many years of work, you possibly would be able to you know, have enough information and knowledge and practis to invoke your whole yar dean angel and establish

conversation with the whole your Dean Angel, and so with there you help then discovering your true will, and that would be like a big deal. And then maybe you would then spend the rest of your life getting ready to jump across the abyss. What happened in the twenty five almost more than twenty five years, like we're actually reaching my almost thirtieth year. I tend to not think about the ears of Covid as real ears. But hey, they did

it happen? You know, almost thirty years later you jump online and everybody is a magister template. Everybody got courses or books on how to cross the abyss. There because the abyss is just the dark night of the soul. You just have pretty much like to to face your demons and you're done. That couldn't be further from the truth. It's, you know, the experience

of the abyss. From my understanding, it's the absolute destruction of duality, and the absolute understanding and understanding is the name of Bena, which is the sefid that you reach on the other side of the abyss, the understanding of non duality. How how can everybody just do it by reading a book? It's beyond my understanding. Maybe I don't get it right, but possibly it all boils down to the fact that everybody wants to be Crowlate. Everybody wants

to emulate the master. Everybody wants to everybody wants to be, in a way the superman or the Ubermansch of nietzchean Um, you know, ancestry. If you want. The problem is that you know you can want these things and that's absolutely fine. But to want something and be something, you know, there there's an abyss behind the two. So I really wish again that we could get to a point where people they are generally interested in magic,

can be happy with their own progress. Maybe magic should they maybe should focus on magic being helping them into living fuller lives, maybe being you know, more um aware of the synchronicities around them and making sense of them as we dout, we dout you know, going into rabbit holes just for the sake of rabbit holes, which can be all sorts of problems as well. I mean that is maybe those that is the abyss as well, because the abyss is this persion, is lack of focus, is lack of um pointedness in

life. But in fact, you know, it's alway. So that's what I hope. I hope that you know, people get into magic without without trying to emulate Crawley, without saying, okay, you know, like I must be a magister template, I must be an adopt in doing. Every time I teaches, I teach these classes, I always say with a lot of like, with a lot of size from the from the from the people at each these things too that maybe one person in a thousand will become an

adept. But when we're talking about people a crossing the abysse, we're talking about one in a billion. I mean, that's that's the gulf of difference. That's that's the the absolute of that specific moment. Why why worrying about something that It's almost like, you know people that always keep um playing the the roulette or the casinos or the lotto and lose money on money and money money because they will win one day. What's your odds you're going to win?

Right? Hang invest that money and do something else, right, I mean, but maybe that's me. Yeah, I don't know if that answer your question. I definitely went on attention. They definitely did. I just kind of wanted to add a little bit to that conversation before we drove into I do want to speak about the Holy Guardian Angel more on depth, if

you're comfortable with that. But we live in a society now that definitely has way more instant gratification than we have ever seen in human history at period, and so I think a lot of times when we see these influencers, we see people who are adepts or claim to be masters of their temple or what

have you. I think that it comes with the fact that they are trying to get the instant gratification crowd to come to their teachings, to come buy their book or come do whatever with them that they are, whatever their artillior motive is. I think that's the crowd they're adhering to. Now, how absolutely how Thelama evolves with the fact that everyone wants instant graphication. Now, I think you can get instant graphication from performing your rituals that you have,

and not just yours, but just Thelomatic rituals in general. You do get instant graphication if you pay attention to how you feel, but it's not the kind that people are used to, and I think that's what makes Thelama stand out. But that's also what makes Thelma a risk and the survival and the continuation of this for lack of better term, religion. No, I think

you absolutely nailed it. First of all, you know, whenever you get people marketing their courses or their books, you're right like the market the marketing employees or the marketing hooks is all about you know, do this and you'll get something right away. Um. Recently I've seen I'm not gonna name names, but I've seen people you know, marketing, you know, like in order to get in touch with your archangel, these archangel here's a Siegel.

Look at the Siegel. You're gonna be fine. I shudder because you know that's that's that's the little snake oil to me. Like, but the reality there is that what I noticed by rounding the community online that a run for the last for almost four years now, very few people ever engage with magic,

right, like active actual magic. Yeah, exactly, like you know, not just reading the book, not just listening to me speak about magic, not maybe watching a lecture, but actually say, okay, now I'm going to turn everything off and try and see what it's like to do a pentagram usual, which you know, one one of the simplest rituals out there.

Um. I can tell you it's maybe less than five percent in my experience, and I would argue that, you know, um, in my community, for the most I was able to attract very good people, very you know, harness seekers, honest seekers, right, but even of those

honest seekers, five percent became actual magicians. Um. You know, I you know, before we were recording, we were discussing how you know, both you guys and I you know, started getting more involved into this after helier right, that really really acted as a as a catalyst for bringing magic

to to to the masses really in the last few years. Um. You know, when I spoke at Phenomena on two in September twenty twenty, UM, I got a huge search of patron subscribers and thank you all, if you're listening, I really appreciate your support, even if if you eventually disappeared very fast, because what you know, what I know this is that a lot of people signed in and then they realize, oh, wait a second, I have to do magic, like I have to take out of my

day exactly just to meditate, to learn to vocalize, to vibrate, to raise five percent and maybe I'm maybe I'm being very generous with that percentage. So the point is, you know, to go back to the point we're making at the beginning, is that like if if people never do magic, they'll never realize that they can get that that the gratification they seek. But they have to do it, like they have to just at least, you

know, do the exercise, I mean, believe it or not. This is the same kind of a percentage that you find in people that you know after the winter holidays and Christmas, they put on wait and they say I'm going to go to the gym, and they sign up to the gym, and then of the people don't go to the gym, who sticks is only the five percent. So the problem is that since magic is not um, it's not an exact science, and I argue, maybe it's not a science

at all. It's magic. Uh, you can you can sell people fake um, you know, instant gratification because you can sell them this idea that you know, you can watch a sigil and say some gibberish and something will

happen. Because what usually what happens pretty much, I guess you'll you noticed it is that then you get you know, almost like control groups around sorry, support groups around this this approach, right, you get forums that speak about how people that talk to each other about how this technique was revolutionary and worked. And I'm telling you this because I got him by I did into

one of this first. Like I said, I'm not going to name names, but I got invited into the forms of a series of very popular books written by folks that clearly are using pseudonyms, and I'm not going to say more. And I always I read one of this book, I did a review for one of these books, and I was like, I don't understand why you have this has been clearly a commercial success. I don't get it because if you do, if you do these things, nothing will happen.

But Daniel, I was invited into this Facebook group with thousands of people, and I can tell you none, none could tell me what did, what

they were experiencing it. Their experience of the whole yer Dan Angel was nothing like what I experienced or what other people experienced that I could prove that they went through the experience the correct way of doing it, and in general what Crowley says that it did the experience of the whole yer Dan Angel is But it doesn't matter anymore because you have get these thousands of people talking to themselves that they had something. And I think that's a big problem out there because

it's how can you tell somebody your experience is not real? It's very difficult, right in the sense that maybe maybe you also shouldn't in the sense that like think about it, like who who are you? Who am I to come to anybody yeah and say hey, you know like that that so I elected to just not engage anymore. But I can tell you, I know

that these people are having no experiences. They're just convincing themselves. And now, when you say the experiences, are you saying like Theelluma related experiences like with a Holy Garden Angel? Are you saying magic in general, like let's say the other branches who do and voodoo and other things like that. In this particular case, I'm talking about the Holy Garden Angel experience. Okay,

like that, that particular experience. When it comes to magic as a you know, as in a wider uh spectrum of the term, it's very it's very hard because you know, I can I can only speak of what I am and I'm familiar with, and of course I am. Even if I dabbled a little bit in hoodoo, I'm not an expert um. Even if I dabbled a little bit and maybe more than doubled in what's cooled like cool to Sabbati and so Sabatic witchcraft, I'm not an expert um. But then

again, who's the expert with this one? Stab topics? Because you know, think about it right, Um, either you are exactly you live in UM in a very specific kind of culture where you do have experts like you know, think of I think I'm thinking of Haiti right where boo boo doo or voodoo boo. It's difficult to pronounce it as well, especially but you know voo doo. Okay, that's the kind of pronunciation. Um, it is so real, it's such like it's it's a religion that it's so much

lived by by Haitians. Where you know, a mambo or hung gun will be experts because they are they represent a specific role in the society, right. But outside of that um the culture, everybody can call themselves a hung gun and maybe they went through to the cancer initiation. But if how can I I can even be sure if I'm not part of that culture as well?

Right, So long story short, I will never say that, you know, anybody's experience is not real, but I can tell you that from what I can I can ascertain from from where I stand, there's a lot of um seeking for instant gratification on things that are absolutely you know, as

far as possible from providing instant gratification. But it almost doesn't matter anymore, because you get thousands and thousands and thousands of people online that have been convinced that all they needed to do was to buy a book back to what we're seeing very cheap pipe paperback on Amazon, and they would have the experience, and how do you you know, maybe in many way, in many ways, that's a testament that these people did a very good magic spell in the

sense that they cast a very you know, enduring glamor. But it's glamour, it's not truth, and it's a big problem if you ask me. But I don't have the solution, and I don't think I don't think there's going to be a solution. What I think is that those who are truly motivated to go deeper in their spiritual evolution and maybe having really want to have the expense of the whole year than Angel, they will find their ways.

Even if they started with this practices that for me are completely pointless, eventually they realize, hey, wait a second. For instance, Crowe speaks of the whole year than Angel as in terms very similar to what is described as samadi in yoga, So you know, union with God, and I don't feel any union with God I'm not getting any noses out of this. Um. It just something that felt good for you for a weekend, and that's it. Maybe they will, they will go and seek deeper ways of maybe

truer ways of having this experience, or maybe not. You know, at the end of the day, remember five percent. I mean that's my experience. Only five percent of the people that signed up to everything I've ever done are still doing magic to this day. It's a bit sad. Well. One thing I do want to add is the mantra that we really have for tails in the dark. And one thing that we've seen across all realms of weird, whether that be magic, whether that be UFOs, ghost goblins,

you name it, is that there are no experts. Now, while you said that there are, um, there's definitely societal roles that experts have a very large hand at play. And then do you have a very important role when it comes to understanding anything that cannot be air quotes proven by science. There are no experts, We're all learning. The second that you claim that you are an expert in this field, to me is the day that you

stop being a student. You stop learning. You don't respect the experience that you're going to be given from high strangeness, from magic, from thelema, from whatever you're learning. Yeah, no, I agree with you. If I go to Ahiti, I will listen to a hungan or a mambo because they are experts. But again it's it's cultural. And yeah, our western wold there can be any experts on these topics because it's there's no true scientific way of proving it or any of this. So data is that, like

you want to keep an open mind. Again, though there can be some telltale signs of somebody who's just maybe wasting their time. Oh again, it's it's down to them. They'll they'll find, they'll find, they'll they'll find it for themselves. And there's absolutely people out there. One thing that we do specify when we say that is there's absolutely people out there who know more

than us. Like I don't know everything by a long shot, neither does Bob, and neither does Marco. But Marco definitely knows a lot more than I do about Thelma. Therefore I can learn from Marco. But that doesn't mean that Marco's Marco thinks he's higher than thou, you know what I mean? Like it's it's a very um, delicate but important balance that I feel that you carry and that we carry as well as we go on and learn

about all different time excuse me, all different types of high strangeness. There is something about magic in general, something that always it's, uh, it's tech problems, it's nausea, it's something. It's it's always something we when we have someone like Marco or Alan Greenfield on the podcast. Yeah, man, I'm gonna have to cut that. Uh maybe maybe, Um, Yeah, I don't know. You told me this before. It's it's it's kind of weird, to be fair, it's weird. I'm telling you. It's

every single time we've done three interviews with Allen. Yeah, more than that, because we've done video videos with him, and we've talked with him off air personally, and oh my gosh, every time we have some kind of issue, we get sick. We've gotten sick before. Um, to the point where Bob interview by himself it's must be Gramleans or something like that. Yeah, I don't know. Well, I do want to kind of build off what you guys were discussing. I think the placebo effect in the magical

community is massive. Um, because we were recently looking into the steps for an on crossing ritual, just something you know, very basic. Everyone has their own methodology for un crossing. And then it goes even deeper to well Marco's oils that he sells it's the best for un crossing. Without his oils, you're only half wasting. You're doing you're own crossing, and it's it's

really wild. And then the other thing I want to you kind of touch on this earlier, but the psychedelic aspect of Thelma, because you kind of discuss how can you really be an ascended master and still uh embodying the mortal plane. Well, I don't know how familiar you are with Terrence mckennum, but I recently listened he I'll have to send you this clip where he discusses he took a DMT trip for those who are an unfamiliar to stemethyl triple mean

and it's an extremely potent psychedelic and it lasts four to fifteen minutes. It depends on the set setting in the first a million other factors. But he you know, this was on a magical conversation he was having and he describes meeting these uh, these other worldly elves basically, and he says one of the machine that's that's what he calls them. Yeah, so he's discussed he's talking to these machine elves who are vibrating, and then we apply the law

of vibration. We start to apply some of the more well known hermetic lasses. Okay, well they're singing things into existence. Then they're jumping into his body. He can feel their presence through the vibrations. I think when you factor in the psychedelics, you can kind of start to see how someone may be able to reach that level of sended master on the mortal plane. But

it's there's no psychedelic trip that's the exact same for two people. And that's where it's a there's no psychedelic trip that's the same between the same person from trip to trip now, and that's that's where I mean, you can get difficult to when you get into, you know, Crowley's drug usage, you can kind of start to see, But then you can also approach from the other side of well, he was a drug addict and that's why he was thinking the things that he was thinking. Well, you know what, let

let me let me address a couple of things here. First of all, I would like to say that Cruley was a drug user to cool him an addict in the sense that yeah, I mean it was addicted to a series of drugs, mostly because at the time that's what doctors prescribe to people. It was the doctors that get people addictions going, because you know, if you if you felt ill, well, here's some cocaine for you. That was it was, it was, it was, it was definitely, it

was definitely addicted to a series of things. But famously he also wrote Confessions of a Drug Field, which was his like strange out of by almost pseudo autobiographical way of describing his attempts to get rid of all these addictions, even if at the time he didn't need to because it was part of, um, you know, of the way medicine was administered at the time. Right.

That's just just like a little thing on Kroe that you know, not to say that I never because people tend to say, especially in telemic circle, people tend to see me as the kroa bascher. So for once I defended him. Um. Also, like what you mentioned about, you know, the h the psychedelics and whatnot. I mean I took the DMT come several times, and I don't know if you know, like you have to smoke it and I don't smoke. So it was a very terrible experience.

Yeah, harsh experience. And I had very visual um experiences and I did

meet this. It is very true, like you get there, you it's almost like your visuals um become very strange out of sudden and almost like you're somewhere else, but you really like you just go somewhere inside your head and there, you know, I could reliably find the same creatures all the time, and like like McKennon was saying, like there was there wasn't really like any any spoken language, was more like a vibration consciousness exchange and things like

that. Um. This these experiences you know with DMT and you know with LSD and other psychedelics true in my life. I ended up wondering if these tools are really needed to go deeper with magical practices. Um. There is a very interesting academic paper called The Cactus and the Beast. I don't remember the you know, the the PhD candidate, but I guess he's a doctor

now that wrote it. Trying to remember him Patrick something. Anyway, The Cactus and the Beast is on Academia dot edu and this guy was also was I don't know if still is um. An OTEO member made the point that if you go through all of Churl's diaries, you used used to used to write about everything right about all is um experience. And you also also used to use a lot of symbols to like shorthand for various um practices. Right.

For instance, oftentimes if you found like a circle with a cross in the middle, which is kind of like a representation of the rose cross, that could have meant sexual union, like sex magic simplifying it, but in general that gives you the idea. Well, this guy went to pretty much improved that he was using a lot of payoti towards his entire magical career.

And he's not the only one, right, Like, there's plenty of scholars and you know, researchers that try to prove that in a lot of early Masonic ritual there was a lot of use of psychedeics as well, maybe hashish, which was not the kind of stuff you find this day, but like early like super potent as I will give you a lot of visual effects. Now, of course, we live in a society, especially here in the West where you know, we we waived the war on drugs and we lost

it terribly over the years. In the last decade, things are trying to change in that direction, but there's still a lot of prohibitionism. And the problem is that you just cannot give drugs to people because you have to learn the drug. Again, there can be any instant instant gratification there. Either you have to learn the drug, you have to get in touch with it, you have to understand, you have to understand what kind of effects it will. It will you know, give to your body, and as you

said, like everybody is different, everybody will have different reactions. But my point is it could well be that you can never have deeper, higher experiences, you know, magister template ever experiences unless you help your body with chemicals from outside, which is you know, it's opening the doors of perception, like all of those Aculay wrote, and again McKenna and everybody who was part of you know, the lizergic and a generation of the sixties and seventies became

a big proponent of m I don't know, I don't know if we'll ever get there, because unfortunately we're still in in you know, living again in a society where drug use is completely seen as unacceptable, because it does it can be incredibly dangerous if you're not familiar with what you're doing. And at the same time, we're having people going to to do I don't know, Ayahuaska retreats without even understanding how incredibly potent and invasive is an Ayahuaska retreat and

coming back with their minds shattered. So um, well, that's why I think people like Paul Stamitz and his work is very very important to not only the magical community but everyone in general, because he references quite a few research like Harvard research papers and experiments with still cyban In particular, it repairs your brain and it creates new neural pathways, and I think that definitely could be

a key to unlocking that pathway to higher consciousness. And one thing I also want to add about the doctors back then, you know, prescribing cocaine as typical over the gounters like prescription um the what is the name of that book you just got? The Cross, the Sacred Mushroom in the Holy Cross? Yes, so um, I'm not Are you sure? Are you familiar familiar with that? Marco. I'm not, but it sounds very interesting. I'll

send you a link to it. It's um. Well. Yeah, one thing we talked about, me and Bob is that the fact that, uh, some of these priests that we're coming over to America, we're bringing this herb with them. And this herb is allegedly, in theory tied to the burning bush in the Bible, and that burning bush was a what was the name of That was the name of it, oh ye asked me too fast,

I did. It was a psychedelic inducing bush that was grown in Africa, and that was there was a fossilized version that was found that matched the time period of when this scripture would have been written or talked about, and lightning would light these bushes on fire. The smoke could induce hallucinogenic effects. Anyway, these herbs were brought over to America, they were passed around in

Catholic rituals. You know, they got the swinging incense as they go through the aisles, and it could be causing hallucinogenic like effects to the masses, to the people in the church. So it wasn't just us weirdos who do magic rituals in the woods. It was also your granny who went to good old Southern Baptist Church. I'm just saying, yeah, absolutely absolutely, and to kind of grow on this. So the books called The Cigarete Mushroom in

the Cross by John Allegro. It was an incredibly controversial book. The Catholic Church bought out the rights um and through a various amount of loopholes and legal dropping of the ball it was. It was reprinted not too long ago. It was within an hour of the publishing rights. So they bought it for like interesting they bought it for like thirty years. It expired and within an hour of them trying to rebuy it, this guy came and purchased the rights

and reprint it up. Yeah, it's it's it's an incredible book. It's a very it's very controversial, and it's a lot of speculation. But well, when he wouldn't sell the rights, they bought his publishing company to buy the rights to the book. So it's a whole there's something there that I definitely think people should look into. But but but to kind of build off the psychedelic the demonization right now here in the States for those who might not

be familiar. There are. There are a few locations in which psychedelics are decriminalized and legal, so in Arbura, Michigan, Denver, Colorado, Portland, Oregon, and I believe some parts of Washington. It might be the entirety of Washington. In state. Here in the States, we love to do things like make psychedelics a Schedule one controlled substance, meaning it has zero

medical benefits whatsoever. Well, even though ten plus years ago, what we have John Hawkins University producing studies that not only challenges us but disproves it entirely that it has zero medical benefits. But that's kind of where we're at. And I know we're kind of pressed, we're time. Sorry, I want to throw something else at you, Marco. I'm incredibly passionate here about the Satanic panic and the fact that people I get told consistently, Bob, this

was in the nineties. It's over. It's it's it's it's not over. It's ever more prevalent, and if not, it's become, in my opinion, more weaponized in a smarter way because of the way that technology halved. Technology is involved, and we see this in paranale investigation all the time. We actually just talk to Brandon Elvis, who's got an amazing show coming out, Haunted Discoveries, and we have this discussion where people found that you can

you can do two things. One the idea the ideology that demons sell so every ghost is a demon and discussion. I want to kind of talk to you in the in the magic community and one of you face. You know, we kind of talked about some of some bad reviews from the book and it wasn't as many as you thought, thankfully. Where do you think we are with the Satanic panic when we're talking ritualistic magic in twenty twenty three. It has it affected you personally, So I definitely think that satanic panic is

back and it's it'sier to stay. I agree with you when you say that it's it's it's worse than the first time around, because, as you correctly mentioned, this time, the you know, the bagged actors are going to

weaponize it in more efficient ways than they did the first time around. Um, you know, you know, we could we use the term satanic panic, but we could use QAnon, we could use pizza Gate, we could use everything that goes back to the idea of the blood lieboat right, the idea that there's someone that it's usually the Jews or or could be anybody related to tom To to them that you know, killed children with terrible, um bull old rituals. This is I mean, I had to face it already

multiple times. I tend to to delete those comments on my various social media's. I tend to you always keep all the comments up, but those one in particularly, I tend to to delete them because I don't want to give these people any um, any platform at all, you know, whatsoever.

But it's it's definitely there, right, It's absolutely there. Um. It's it's really worrying in a way because I'm actually speaking with um what somebody was doing a PhD on the Satanic panic right now and she reported that m her her academic interview was pretty much like deleted from YouTube because you know, of the because of the of the teams that they were being discussed. So and

this is something that I noticed is that over the last three years. So I don't know if that's been you've noticed as well, you mean, maybe you can tell me, but I noticed that because I look a lot at

analytics, right, It's part of one of my interests. Looking at data, and I noticed that a lot of YouTube YouTube content, in particular videos about magic, witchcraft, etc. Especially in magic and which not so much UFOs not so much again paranormal investigations, but magic and witchcraft or it went downhill in views incredibly, right to the point that I don't believe it's just a case of people not being interested in the subject anymore. It's an imagical

press, you know, you know, imagic. Yeah, exactly like in magic, there's always waves. This this topic came and comes, comes and goes because as we said before, it's so difficult if you really want to engage with it. You realize that you don't have just to to and you know a mantra, look at a scio or do some good O rituals. You have to really do something and you know, engage with it. So

most people just you know, come and go. And that's fine. But we went from I went from seeing you know, big names dropping a video and having sixty thousand views over a year two six hundred. I mean that's that's incredible, right, And it's not like the quality went down. Um, we're we're talking about you know, not small creators. I have like two thousand, five hundred and six hundred people on YouTube, and I never publish. I just do live streams, right, So I'm not talking about

me. I'm talking about people with three hundred thousand followers, right, And they had in a lot of attraction and the attraction is completely gone. And I think that's part of the algorithm of YouTube being twiaked on one sense because they you know, they cannot sell ads for magic, right because have what kind of ads do they sell? But part of it possibly because they've been I don't think that YouTube is like trying to or Google, right, trying

to push Satanic Panic ideology. But maybe they don't want to get um when attacked by these nuts, right, So they kind of did something with the algorithms so that it's specifically magic and specifically witchcraft. It's almost gone from from the platform. Um if you if you follow various creators, you'll see you still see them. But maybe even if you're a subscriber, you're those view views views, yeah, yeah, exactly, you have to go and find

them yourself. So in many ways, this is one of the more insidious ways that the Satanic Panic is acting nowadays. Personally, I said I did receive a good deal of you around of the meal, uh you know, insults that threats. But again, I mean again, I I wrote a book which is bafflement on the cover. I was expecting that you know that book. By the way, originally the title was supposed to be Telm after Tears. It used to have a different image on the on the on the

cover. But you know, like the publisher really convinced me to go for the Lester crony manual and that very in your face, which I think it did did a good job. It's very recognizable, but it definitely did attract

a lot of crazies. Uh. When it comes to the reviews, um, to be fair, the only bad reviews that I got, and we're talking about just to given the yea right now, the book is four stars four point five stars out of five on you know as an you know, um, the aggregated score between good Reads and Amazon, right which is which is decent. I'm very happy with it. The only bad reviews are from otio people because and only the and the and their their bad reviews that absolutely

do not speak about the book. They're like, they talk shit about me. They say that I was I was kicked out of the OTEO. It's not true. I resigned. They say that the book is full of my political ideas. It's not true. I never speak about politics in the books. They say that the book you should read other things, not by people

that are against the OTEO. Why, I mean, it's you know what I mean, right, So it's I don't see my bad book reviews, which by the way, are six out of one hundred and one hundred and eleven right now reviews on Amazon. So it's not that it's not that bad. It's good overall. But you know those reviews are I don't think they're linked to Satanic panic themselves. It's a linked about the fact that the OTEO is a cult and whenever you get out of the cult and criticize the cult,

they will come after you. And Greenfield have had the same experience. Gerald wil Campo had the same experience. Everybody who spoke against the OTEO as an ex member of OTEO had the same experience. Um, well, we've had that we've interacted with throughout the years. So I mean, what's another one, Just just another one, right, Because we can never get enough of cults of personalities I mean, it's it's sad to say, but apparently

that's really what people want. People want to be part of something that tells them that they're special and unique, even if they're not, even if they do nothing to be special and unique, and that there is one one person at the top, which is either like a sky Daddy or somebody who died. And I'm being unshrined every time I read that your book, I was laughing so much. Sky Daddy is the perfect term for it. I mean it's it's kind of it kind of gives the you know, the kind of

paints the correct figure. I think. Yeah, so, you know, long, long story short, I do think that the Satanic pining two point two is back easier to stay. And it's really really dangerous um because you know, at the end of the day, behind the Satanic panic, you find q and One, you find Pizza Gate, you find blood libel, You find them are pedophiles and so they should die. And it's always the

same thing. I mean, like it's always the same story. It goes back to the to the blood libel against the Jews since the Middle Ages, right, and it's it's really it's dangerous times. I really believe we're we're not living in in a very safe, not safe moment of history. Yes, I hope. I hope I could say something, you know, like end this on a on a positive note, but no, I think that,

you know, I also like this. I also would like to remember everybody that the way we got out of Satanic Panic one point two is by people speaking up, by people being you know, rages enough and bold enough to stand against the lies and the slander and the libel. So I really hope that people can remain strong knowing that we are going to rough waters. And that's not denying debt, No, absolutely, And I want to kind of build off something real fast. So we have a second channel where recover

missing person's content. We have two hundred and sixty thousand subscribers or something like that over there, and we like you, like yourself. I live in the analytics. I love looking at trends. I love figuring out what they mean, what they could meet in the future. That's just kind of my my thing. And I had done a video on the Tails from the Dark channel about the Satanic Panic it got. It literally was called what is the

Santanic Panic? Yeah, it got demonetized instantly wasn't recommended anytime on the missing person's side if we discussed the faith theory or we discussed magical practice as a ritual magic. It's not just that we'll see a dip in views. We'll go from typically getting you know, twenty to thirty thou into three to four and twenty four hours if we're lucky, and it's it's extremely obvious when you look at the analytics, like you said, you can easily identify where these

things are happening. Now the how, that's where we have a bit more of a difficult discussion to have because you don't you don't want to combat a conspiracy with a conspiracy. And that's where it's incredibly difficult to have the conversation about the Satanic panic because you have some people say it just doesn't exist,

it doesn't exist, because I don't. I'm not affected by it. What in my case, you know, I grew up in the nineties and small town Ohio where my parents were convinced that everyone was part of a secret society and that everyone was out to murder us or traffic us. I mean, hell, your parents literally told you there are cultists in the woods. Yeah, do not go out on this specific road. Well, that's a big conversation that my film partner and I've had a bunch of times because we grew

up in the same town hearing the same thing. Out on River Road. There's cultists that are sacrificing kids. And if only you know one or two people heard that, you're like, oh, that's weird the whole Yeah, everyone and everyone in my high school class heard the exact same story, no matter race, creater, nationality, we all heard the same thing. We had some people who were extremely high up on the the monetary guidelines, people

that were making town. Those people were hearing the same stories that out on River Road there are people doing rituals and they're sacrificing children. Where that doesn't just come out of nowhere. And I love history. When we approach a we have a documentary out where we did a panimal investigation to me the highlights the historical aspect. I have dove as deep as I possibly can. I've on earth some very disturbing history in my hometown. Nothing about the cold.

There was one major h There was a murderer at my hometown when I was a child. The first thing they said. And this was as far over as um. Some London papers wrote about him saying he was a local occultist and they had blamed his uh disillusion from his local church on being an occultist. There was zero proof anywhere that this guy was supposedly part of a cult. And I've looked and if any if it was out there, you would have found it. You And I mean I'm talking. I've gone to the

local historical society. I've read every paper from eighty nine to OZ four records, you name it. You were that that case, you were in it for months. Yeah, And I could not find any proof, with the exception of the rest of the country was going through Satanic panic one point zero. And it was extremely easy to attach this evil thing that happened in a small town where things never happened to the greater Satanic panic of Oh, this

is a secret society that's infiltrating this small Ohio town. And you also had quite a bit of Catholic background in Catholic churches in your hometown, and I think that definitely helped aid that narrative, because growing up Baptist, I didn't experience it that as much. And It definitely wasn't everything is a demon when I was grown up, but we were definitely superstitious. So no, like like I said, like when you when you study the history behind these events,

you realize there's no history. But of course, people people that believe in any panic or blood libel or knoon or pitzigate, they will tell you, well, you know know, because you're not high enough in any group, and you you're the powers that be are so strong that the elite of Hollywood is so strong that um, you know, they'll they'll they'll hush everything.

The problem is that, unfortunately that also is complete books because Blue and be Old, we know of people like Epstein that are actual pedophiles, that incredibly powerful people with a lot of money, but we know about them. It's them, right, there's nothing else than that. And you know, to to keep on trying to create these false narratives of some sort of like

magic colds or reach ritualistic murders. It's just because almost like people have some sort of like obscene fascination almost like faticization of this of these ideas, right, and you know, it's almost increasing incredible to me that you know, we're living in in a moment of history where pretty much, you know, we know whatever happened to happen in Epstein Island, right the guy so you know, killed himself or you know, got suicided, or we will never

possibly know that Gilaine Maxwell is still in jail. We know that, you know, for instance, all these people were very good friends with Donald Trump. But you know who's usually the people that actually go and um, you know, share satanic panic narratives are Trump supporters. And by the way, it's the same in here in the UK, in Italy, everywhere. It's always it's always like that kind of people that cannot see the obvious and they

have to create us try that pans. It's always exactly exactly right. Look at this while my hands doing this. Yeah, it's really difficult because for every we've discussed this from the show, for every one hundred Pizza Gates, you do have a Finder's cult here in the US, and we've seen that I documents or you or you have a situation where what's happening at bohemian growth,

that's that's up for interpretation. Depending on who you talk to. It can be as simple as they are a paying homage to a theater, an old theater act. That's the thing. Though for everyone that's real, there are there are a thousand that are nonsense. And when we first started tell Us from the Dark, I fell down a lot of those rabbit holes of everything's a fucking conspiracy, this is insane. Then you crawl your way back out and you're able to look and say, this has legs. This was

made up by some dude in his mom's basement. It's it's yeah, And you have to know how to differentiate between the two. And I do want you to say the statistic that we would like to refer to you when we talk about the Satanic panic, about how there's not been a documented ritualistic killing. Go ahead, all, let you say that's the whole thing there.

So when I was in the police academy, I had a conversation about um, Satanic cults was the thing that was still being talked about in the police academy, And I said, hey, how many times have as the FBI caught these these satanists that are sacrificing kids. And my instructor, who it was, was an FBI. Um. He worked for the FBI doing like various teachings and he says, Bob, We've never caught one ever. There's not a there's not a there's not a single documented case of a ritualistic killing

under the name of Satan. And I'm like, hang the fuck on. I grew up hearing that this was happening every week, like everywhere. Gonna look at at a go grocery, at a Dollar General, It's gonna be happening by the dumbest. Yeah, every Tuesday. We were meeting up and this is He's like, no, there's never been one. We don't have one. And the people who say it's a ritualistic killing under Satan's name, that's they have no backing for that. We're just saying it because it gets

the clicks online and it gets the eyes on. And I'm like that, it's such an insane statistic. Now, granted I don't know if he's just talking here in the States or worldwide, but this guy would have been it's

everywhere. Trust me, it's it's the same everywhere. Like I did, I did study the subject a lot, because you know, like at some point I realized that given who I am, what I write about, what I believe in, I could well become you know, a target at some point and there's never ever been any proof and Satanic ritual murder ever existed, ever happened. It all goes back to really layout Axial and his hoax um.

You know, I mean that we could we could discuss about Texel for another hour, but it's all about what this guy that really wanted to play a big prank against the Catholic Church in the eighteen hundreds in France, and he succeeded. For for good ten years. He wrote books and pamphlets about this secret Palladian Order of freemasery. There was, you know, meeting under

the Rock of Gibraltar, worshiping Satan, killing children. Pretty mull like getting all the ropes back from the blah blah bel against the Jews in the Middle Ages, and the Vatican believed it and even invited this guy to Rome to for this big expose of the Palladian Order. And the guy, which actually was a socialist you would argue, maybe or a protocommunist, to say, well, actually you are the fools because I ranked you. It's like,

and people still goes again, still perpetrate taxil hoax um. If you if you never heard about this gone Wikipedia. Look for tax Cil t A x I L hoax. Very good article, a lot of links. Actually on Kickstarter right now there is someone is translating his book from French and it has been one of the biggest Kickstarter of the year. They raised over sixty thousand dollars to do it because there's a lot of interest because it's really like,

especially when you read it, it's so atrociously you know, unbelievable. Yeah, and trust me, pretty much every trope you hear from Satanic panic nuts it comes from that book. They still perpetrate the same hoax, possibly without knowing, you know, but the same you know, it's the same beats of taxil. And that was eighteen sixty if I'm not mistaken, So a

good one hundred and forty years later. It's a long time under sixty years later, a long time all right, Marco, Well, we we're I don't want to take up too much more of your time, but before you go, where can people find your book? I know you teach classes. We kind of schedule on your courses. Where can they find more? Marco? Oh, well, why would everybody want to find more? All right?

That's access jokes aside. If you go on Marco Visconti dot org that's kind of my online hub, you will find the two soon to be three main courses I teach. The first one is Magic Without Tears, which is pretty much like the book but extended, you know, with recording of life live sessions and you know more more more or less, I'm expanding on the book right um in interesting enough. Right now I'm running my last live cohort and I just finished the first part. The second part will start at the

end of August and round till October. So if you if you want to get um and you know, see me every week on zoom teaching you magic,

that's your best bet um. Also, the other big course I have is called Thought Taro Magic, which is on the thought Taro, but it's not so much like a course where I teach how you you how to read the cards, even if there is a lesson on that, and I go quite in deep how the thought Taro reads very differently than your normal taro, but it's mostly twenty two pathworkings or recorded where you can actually go into you know, light trans states and get inside the cards and pretty much have almost

like an induced psychedelic experience of the cards. I just wrapped that up. All the material is available for self based study. Everybody would took it say that it's the best thing I've done so far. So I'm very I'm very

happy how that turned out. Finally, well, I mean, we're recording this on Monday and on Thursday. This week I will announce my third courts which is called to be called the Holier Dean Angel Experience, where I'm gonna teach you all that I cannot teach you how to invoke the Holier Dean Angel, but I can give you all the historical background, how the on the whole Gardian Angel changes from you know, its roots in the maybe the Greek

magical papyri, then into the Abramelian operation and the Book of Abramelion, and then how it translates into Telemma, and how it's actually quite a different experience from you know, from the precursors to the telemic understanding of it um. Then this is going to be like going to be on sale by the end

of the week and will run from October to December twenty twenty three. But then again, usually all the courses I do, I always do like live cohorts and then everything is recorded edited and people can sign up at any time to do self paid studies. On my website. You also find like, you know, one shot classes. I have one on Magic and Crowe,

I one on Babylon, I wan on Esoteric Freemasery. These are like, you know, if you want to spend an evening learning atopic and you don't know anything about it, maybe that's that's a good way of of spussing any meaning we know it with me. Um, and that's about it. Um. I'm you know, if you want to follow me on social media, I am Marco V Schooling Team pretty much everywhere. Um. Yeah, thank

you for being Yeah, thank you for coming. Yeah, Like I know, it's been a couple of months, a couple of months in the making, but we haven't glad. Yeah, I am absolutely it was fantastic. Thank you, Thank you guys. Awesome. Well, thanks Marco. I appreciate it, all right, Miss Brittany. So that was a that was a fucking fun interview. Let's be Yeah, what a riveting conversation. I feel very energized after that. Yeah, it's funny because we discussed like I

kind of felt sick. Before we started, we were having a bunch of issues technology, like on the tech side, And now I feel really good. Yeah, it's always happens with ELM and like I said in the interview, it always happens with magic, with Thelma, with anything to do with with this side of the weird. So no, absolutely, in the books great. I recommend anyone who even has a inkling and too. Maybe this is for me. I just want to learn more. It's a great resource

to start. And it's not that we talked about this on during the interview, but there's too many books that over explain and they want to kind of stay on their pedestal of look, how smart I am. This isn't one of those books. Now, I will say, when you first read through

it is it's complicated. It's a complicated subject. Yeah. But what I was most shocked about when I read through this book was the fact of how much I retained months after I put the book down for the first time, which we talked about that in the first part, that before we ye the main episode, I retained a lot of knowledge throughout studying this book, really and to be able to recall that knowledge and have an active conversation with you

about it was very surprising to me because it's complicated. Well, a lot of these books and even we love Uncle Allen, but some of his books I have to read two or three times to really grasp, if not more. Yeah, and it's nothing against his writing style, but it's the subject is very complicated, and you have to approach it, like you said in the interview, as a student. The second you trying to approach it. Of oh why I already understand. I understand the capitalistic tree of Life.

You may understand. You may have studied the sep roths and that's awesome, but how they apply to Thelma, for example, may be completely different than what you're used to studying. It's also could be a new perspective too. You can always gain knowledge from a new perspective. Yeah. So with that being said, miss pretty unless there's something else that you'd like to add,

go check out Marco. I agree. I think we're not have to add this episode of our Strange World to our never ending but are always growing Tales from the Dark m M.