Philippa Gregory

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Get the smarter home system that just gets you at Vivint.com. Hello.

I'm James Crawford and welcome to Take Four Books, the programme where an author tells us about their new novel and reveals three other works that inspired its creation. Today I'm joined by the celebrated historical novelist Philippa Gregory, whose intimate portrayals of the mash

of England's Tudor court have made her a bestseller and a household name. Multiple screen adaptations have followed, most famously The Other Boleyn Girl, which was a BBC series and a Hollywood movie starring Natalie Portman and Scarlett Johansson. In her latest novel, Boleyn Traitor, Philippa returns to the Tudors and the court of King Henry VIII, who was once voted, by the Historical Writers Association no less, the worst monarch in history.

Her new novel's narrator is the shadowy figure of Jane Boleyn, confidant to five of Henry's six wives, but was she a loyal friend or a duplicitous spy? Philippa's three influences in this episode include a classic novel of jealousy and adultery, a famous love story and social comedy that flits between Italy and England,

and an enduring study exploring how the tensions between rural and urban life have shaped English national identity. We'll talk more about these three influences later in the programme, but for now, Philippa Gregory, welcome to Take Four Books.

Thank you very much. Lovely to be with you. Philip, you've described your protagonist in Berlin Traitor, Jane Boleyn, who was married to the brother of Queen Anne Boleyn, as a kind of historical smoking gun. What do you mean by that? We've got a lot of evidence that says that she was not, as she at first appears, a lady-in-waiting, in a sense loyal and obedient to her principal, the Queen of England, whoever that was. We've got a lot of evidence that says that she's doing more...

more than that, that she's perhaps working undercover. But we don't have any convincing document or even a record of somebody's suspicions of her to tell us exactly what she's doing at the courts of the five queens. And for those who may not be aware of the history of Henry VIII's Tudor court, just give us a brief...

I mean, most will likely know about Henry's six wives. It's even the subject of a current West End musical. But people are maybe less aware of just how directly their fates were tied up with 16th century geopolitics. Well, they're very much chosen. Catherine of Aragon is an arranged marriage chosen in order to strengthen ties with Spain. And that's Henry's first wife. The first wife. And therefore, when he tires of her, despairs of getting a son with her and decides...

to marry Anne Boleyn. That second choice is one very much driven by desire and by whim, and it's to an English commoner wife. That matters enormously because Catherine of Aragon, as a princess of Spain... He manages to get away with divorcing her, but he has to turn England into a reformation going towards Protestantism in order to get that divorce through because then he, as head of the church, can rule upon it. So you've got that...

connection immediately. Yes, fairly extreme grounds for divorce, isn't it? Well, it's the same old grounds, really, he wanted a younger wife. It's fairly extreme technique for getting it. And the younger wife is the first of her. Henry's wives of choice, and they don't turn out well. Jane Seymour, arguably, the third wife does, but the second wife is Anne Boleyn, and it is her rise to being queen from being just one of Catherine of Aragon's ladies-in-waiting that raises our heroine, Jane Boleyn.

to being sister-in-law to the Queen of England and lead lady in the Queen's rooms. And Jane is a character that's appeared before in your novels, but never... quite in this way and now you and we as readers are inside her head. What did you discover as a writer and trying to understand her on this intimate level?

Well, there's very little written about her. There's two good biographies, one by the historian Julia Fox. And one of the first really inspiring points for me was to go to her childhood home and to discover something about her. father. He's a scholar and he gives every year as a gift to the king, King Henry VIII, and to his daughter then called Lady Mary, a gift of a translation of an Italian classic piece of writing. into English for their New Year gift.

That in itself is very, very interesting that you see there that Jane is brought up in a scholarly household. So she might well be one of the scholarly Tudor ladies. And the real door opened for me when I discovered that. Lord Morley, Jane's father, had given Thomas Cromwell Henry VIII's chief political advisor, a translation of Machiavelli's The Prince, which is the absolute blueprint of how to become a tyrant. And when I saw that, I did get shivers. It was the moment where I went like...

Possibly what we have here is a deliberate conspiracy by Thomas Cromwell to lead Henry VIII into tyranny for the benefits of the changes that will come to England. And possibly we have... an assistant in the form of Jane, who understands completely what's going on. And still today we talk about people being Machiavellian, being schemers, and Jane may or may not be Machiavellian. I mean, did she surprise you in the course?

of the writing. Have your feelings changed about Jane over the years? Oh, very much. I think all historians have changed how they see Jane Boleyn. She was first written about in the Chronicles of the 16th century. She was hardly mentioned at all. We think that she gave some evidence at the trial of her sister-in-law and her husband for adultery and treason. and incest, but it wasn't until the Victorians who...

are very moralistic in their attitudes, especially to women, that they alleged that she was a big witness at the trial. And then you go on a little bit further. And then, of course, she's involved in the Catherine Howard adultery. And so you get a very judgmental view of her from the Victorians, which really survives to our own time and then transmutes very bizarrely into a sort of... post-sexual liberation post-Freudian analysis of her that says that she has a sexual perversion that she

likes to watch. She's voyeuristic. In which case, if you take that argument, she has a very niche voyeuristic. perversion in that she likes to watch Queens of England having sex with their lovers. Which, you know, would be hard to gratify probably in any other reign other than Henry VIII when you've got six to go at. And only doing the job that she's doing. Yes.

Absolutely. So, you know, in a sense, you've got this very, very judgmental, indeed absurdly judgmental attitude to a woman who is at these extraordinary circumstances. And I went, there's got to be an explanation for her right.

to power, which doesn't fall under these ridiculous headings of mad or bad. Let's move on to talk about style, Philippa, because you're writing in first person, present tense, which is often the style you choose. What is it about that approach that so appeals to you? I discovered it with the other Berlin girl and it seemed to me to be...

a form particularly suited for historical fiction, because in a sense, it rids you of the historian's curse of hindsight. So all of the books that I write about the Tudor wives, I... assume that most readers know what happens to them through the course of the book and what happens to them at the end of the book but if I'm writing in first person present tense then the story unfolds to the reader as if they didn't know how it happened because

They have no foresight as if they didn't know what other people were doing, which in the real world we don't know. And in a sense to allow them to make mistakes. But more than anything else, it gives you a really authentic view from someone who is. as a woman in any historical period, relatively powerless and relatively struggling to survive. And that's very, very powerful, I think, in first person.

Why don't you show this in action now, Philip, with a reading from the opening pages of Boleyn Traitor. A perfect illustration, I think, of the double meanings and double dealings that typify the Tudor court. Boleyn Traitor, Greenwich Palace. Summer, 1534. In the hammered silver of the mirror, we look like two headless ghosts, our black hoods hiding our faces. I throw back the thick veil to reveal the mask of a golden falcon.

The sharp beak is enameled gold, the flaring eyebrows brass. The feathers of head and throat are cloth of gold. They shift and settle. like plumage, speckled like peregrine feathers, as if a free bird has been cursed into gold by Midas. I push up my mask over my light brown hair to show my creamy skin, my secretive smile. And you can take that look off your face.

Anne says, throwing back her own hood, raising her head for me to raise her veil and free her of her mask. What look? Your false face, your two-faced face. What are you thinking? A courtier's mouth is always full of unspoken words. I was thinking it's going to be hard to dance in this, I lie. It's going to be hard to see. We're here to be seen, not to see.

She gets up and spreads her arms for me to unlace her stomacher, her sleeves, the skirt of her gown. She scratches her rounded belly through the fine linen shift. five months into her second pregnancy. She is more tired than with her first. She says this is a son of a son. That was Philippa Gregory reading from her new novel, Boleyn.

traitor. The Anne in that reading, of course, was Anne Boleyn, the new queen. And right from the start, Philippa, are you trying to signal that everyone is performing what the courtiers call a mask, a kind of play with her? literally wearing masks or just pretending to be things they're not. Absolutely. One of the process of writing the book was to really see that the mask which Henry... loved and insisted upon performing into old age and when he was very, very much past dancing.

both an art form and it's a wonderful metaphor, I think, for modern readers to understand the falseness. You know, you have these wonderful constructions of ephemeral entertainments and it's all gone in a night. But in the... process of it everybody wears masks and the masks are often love story themes to constantly reinforce the propaganda of the individuals and the propaganda of the whole court but it's also a fantastic for me a fantastic

metaphor for the entire book where everybody is always pretending all the time and sometimes they're pretending to save their lives.

I mean, it occurred to me, Philippa, that Boleyn Traitor is very much a novel of conversations. You know, it's a series of almost chamber pieces playing out over several years, almost like a play with much of the major drama almost as noisy as off. Oh, that's funny you should say that. That's a very acute reading. This is the first novel I've written since I wrote a play. My play, Richard, My Richard, was performed at the Shakespeare North.

theatre two years ago. And working in the theatre makes you acutely aware of firstly dialogue and then the importance that things that aren't dialogue do more than just move people about. And I've heard you say that you're also thinking in terms of writing for audiobook now, and that, I guess, works in tandem with writing plays.

It's been fascinating how by reading my own audio book, Normal Women, which was a history, which is the only one I would read because it was so very dear to my heart. It's my life's work. It's a history of women of England from 1066 to 1066. So it's nine centuries of women's history in England. And reading that...

on the audio made me understand that this isn't just another way of telling a story. It's a genuine art form of itself and the effort that people put into audio productions has really, really grown. And that made me then start... listening to audiobooks and then I realized how much of the words on the page are unnecessary to the telling of the story so all the he says and she says and a lot of the

explanations. It's very, very, it's very enjoyable to pare it down to it's as if you were in the room. It's an example of how technology changes writer's style. And what about the sort of intersection of research that you have to bring to writing a book like this and then the freedom that fiction allows? I mean, is that something that you've enjoyed?

over the years as a historical novelist. Absolutely. I mean, I don't write historical fiction because I can't be bothered to look up the facts. To me, historical fiction is more interesting... more enjoyable to write and to read than history. So when I come to write an individual story, I want to write about their growth, about their feelings, about their secret lives. And none of that...

is in the historical record. You know, you can't write a history of Jane Berlin as a spy because we've just got two documents with her name. against them that tell us that she was working for Thomas Cromwell. That's not enough to prove a spy. But you can if you take the suppositions and the coincidences and the appearances and then take a fictional jump. Just with spending...

so much time in this Tudor world. How has your relationship to the characters that you've come to know changed over time? Well, I've been with Henry VIII for longer than any of his wives. True you. I know. So we've had, but I've probably done the best out of it than any of his wives. We've had a long relationship. And in that time, I think I have gone from being quite...

moderately pro-Henry to actually seeing him now as I see him as a tarrant. I would even say I would think he was a psychopath. I know he's a serial killer and I know he's a wife killer.

That's quite a jump. That's quite a journey to go on, isn't it? It's a long journey. It's a long journey. And I think it's the journey that many people go on because I... of course, first came across him at school, as everybody does, as a sort of jolly, slightly eccentric figure, king of England when England looked like it does on biscuit tins.

married to six wives, which seems rather amusing when you're a kid. And only when I started to look at the wives' lives and write the wives' lives and also the terrific. death toll. You know, there's been a sort of hardening of my view towards him from a relatively benign comical character to something very, very ominous and very, very dark.

Do you ever feel like a marriage therapist to the Tudor Corps, albeit hundreds of years distant? I feel like a psychotherapist. I mean, I really, really would like to get hold of any one of them. Get great savings on family favorites at Tom Thumb. This week at Tom Thumb, get medium-ass avocados for the member price of two for a dollar, limit six. Plus, get value packs of signature select bone-in fresh whole chickens, thighs or drumsticks for the member price of...

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Now we're at the point in the programme, Philippa, where we turn to the three literary works that you've picked as influences on your new novel. First up is a recurring figure in Take Four Books, the great American-British novelist Henry James and his last completed novel. was published in 1904. Tell us what the book is. It's called The Golden Bowl and it's the story of two marriages.

Both of them marriages of the elite of 19th century society. And it's American marriages. And these Americans are a father and daughter. And they are... immensely rich collectors. And they're basically collecting all the treasures they can find of Europe, ultimately to make a museum in America. And as it were along the way, they collect.

a husband for the daughter and then from him subsequently a wife for the father. And that bit of collection doesn't end so well. Yeah, I can see some connections straight away because despite... the considerable jump in time to the world of the Golden Bull from the world of Boleyn Traitor. This is also a novel dominated by a story of adultery. Yes, it's...

wonderfully told adultery in the Golden Bowl in that you hardly, it's so subtle, partly because of the times that James is working and partly because of how cleverly he does it. You hardly realise that the daughters... husband and the father's wife are lovers before the novel even starts.

What I really love about it is that you shift your sympathy through the novel. It's done so subtly that you start off thinking that you're rather on the side of the lovers because they seem spontaneous and real and romantic. And then by the end of it, you're absolutely on the side of the Americans and not the adulterous Europeans. So when you were writing Boleyn Traitor, how were you thinking of Henry James? I always think of him as someone who...

I'm always reluctant to recommend him to people because it's not an easy read. It's not fluent and accessible. It doesn't bound off the page at you. Whereas I think... I pride myself on being a very, very accessible writer. Literally the minute you start the first page, you are absolutely in. But the one thing where we're absolutely, I think, at one is that we both love an image. So the golden bowl itself runs through the novel as an idea of something which looks...

absolutely perfect and would be fabulously valuable, except it has a hidden crack. And that's literally the story of the marriage. And throughout my book runs this idea of enamel. guilt, gold on top, these surfaces. Everyone is covered in different masks and surfaces and the truth of what they really are is very dark and is hidden underneath.

And just briefly explain, Philippa, what the golden bowl is in the golden bowl. It's a genuinely, it's a golden bowl. And we first see it when the character of the Italian prince and Charlotte, his... previous lover though we don't know their lovers at the time we just know that they are for one last time to be alone together before he marries Charlotte's friend, the American heiress. And she has asked him to come out with her and find something as a wedding gift. And they find this...

what looks like extraordinarily valuable golden bowl. And Charlotte's determined to buy it. And he sees the flaw in the bowl and advises her not to buy it. And ultimately... the American heiress, goes to buy the golden bowl. So it is both a real-life golden bowl with a floor in it and a metaphor for the illusion of beauty and wealth that she's lived her life.

It struck me that there's another connection here to Boleyn, Traitor, in the character of Maggie, the rich daughter in The Golden Bowl, who begins the novel as quite naive, yet when put under pressure. by her husband and her friend's adulterous relationship, responds just like one of your Tudor courtiers by scheming to get her love rival out of her life and restore a kind of order to their social world. Yes, I think...

Maggie's is quite an unselfish scheming in that she's trying to preserve the comfort and security of her father, who has married this woman who was her friend, who is now adulterous with her husband. But what you do see... I mean, I think all of my heroines have it, but with Jane as well. You see this real grittiness and this toughness when women's lives are deeply challenged, when they're in, as it were, the last ditch. That is when you see the real woman.

And that's true of both books, I think. The collision of innocence and experience is a major theme of Henry James's work, you know, the clash of new world naivety and a kind of old world decadence.

So let's stay with the theme of loss of innocence by moving on to your next pick of influences, probably the most famous work by the great early 20th century English novelist E.M. Forster, A Room with a View. And here, the loss of innocence is less about corruption and more about an awakening into an adult world for the novel's protagonist, Lucy. Give us the setup for the story, Philippa. We open in a pension in Florence and...

We're in the company of the worst sorts of English tourists, Forster's terribly snobby. And they are truly ghastly people who have come with their baideckers and want to see Italy and know Italy. And in this pension... comes Lucy and her older friend to see Italy and know Italy under the safe confines of this English.

And also comes our hero, George, and his father, who is an eccentric socialist. And I say socialist as if it was as bad as, you know, an American would say. I mean, shockingly, shockingly. And there's this kind of collision of very, very English snobbery fought out in terribly small, polite ways. And ultimately, Lucy, the ingenue.

lovely young English girl, is going to marry our despicable, boring... banker who has tons of money and no sensibility and finds out at the last moment, thank the Lord, that she's really in love with George, the son of the socialist, who is, I think, a railway clerk or something, you know, frightfully common. And none of that matters. What happens is love wonderfully conquers all.

A way which is both told comically and tenderly. I mean, I love Forster. I think he's got such a humane view and he's got such empathy and such tenderness. It's very funny and it's very sweet. And the parallels might not be instantly. obvious for the listener between A Room With A View and Boleyn Traitor and its Tudor court. What were you drawing on here from E.M. Forster?

First of all, the great triumph that Forster does is he looks at the little details of day-to-day life. And one of the things that I pride myself on in all my Tudor books. particularly this book, is how it's the things like the barge that comes for the condemned person. It doesn't fly a flag. It's a black barge. It's an unmarked police car. These are the little details of the Tudor court that mean everything. And Forster is absolutely brilliant about how the Honeychurch is Lucy's family.

sit in darkness because they draw the curtains to save the carpet from being... bleached by the sun. For him, it's the little details of bourgeois life that give away what is important in bourgeois life. And in my writing also, it's the weight of the... It's the discomfort of the barge. It's the detail of the horse's stuff at the jousting time that puts you really, really in it and makes you see that what is happening is happening to real people.

Well, here's where I thought there was a parallel, Philippa. I think in a room with a view, just like in Boleyn Trader, we have a young girl torn between love and duty. You know, it's a classic marriage plot, except in your book, you have multiple marriage plots and divorce plots, and albeit the stakes are far, far higher when the marriage is to an increasingly unhinged king.

Yes, absolutely. And I think also the idea that women in particular don't just marry to please themselves. They marry in a social context. The other thing that he does that I adore, which isn't so much in Bowling Trader, but which is in all my books, is his attitude to the countryside. He loves the English countryside and he describes it.

with such accuracy and understanding and love. Well, talking of the countryside brings us to your final pick of Influences, Philippa, which is not a novel, but a classic non-fiction work, which I suppose at its heart is about... one of the enduring tensions of the last few hundred years of English literature, the construction of the idea of rural virtue is set against urban vice, basically the country good, the city bad. What's the book and author?

It's The Country and the City by Raymond Williams. And Raymond's telling this story of the countryside and city over not just hundreds of years, but thousands of years. But the period that your novel is set in, Philippa, the mid-16th century. It's beginning to see a significant change, isn't it? Not least with the concentration of wealth and power in King Henry and the impact of access to the land.

Yes, this is the time where enclosures are really starting to bite. The time that we think of the great enclosures when land is taken from the common people, from the common shared use of the common people and taken into practice. and farmed intensively as far as farming was intense then. That comes a little bit later, but this period, the Tudors have really got the understanding that land can be... squeezed for its wealth. So there's starting to be lots of protests about.

Forests being enclosed, trees being taken down for wood, and the increasing dominance of sheep runs rather than cornfields, which means that the price of bread goes up and the sheep farmers make more money. Everybody who is wealthy in Bolin Traitor is wealthy because of the exploitation of their land. And it seems to me that you can't write anything historical that has any meaning at all.

posit that the court and the king are in this sort of fairytale land of unending wealth. So is that where the big influence is coming from Raymond Williams on Boleyn trade or sort of following the money? creating the engine that drives your plot. I think following the money, being absolutely aware that every society you talk about is a society divided by class. We have the period where Jane goes back to her home and her father has just built...

this huge wall around his new house and his new parkland. And he says that anybody, poachers who come in to steal even a rabbit, he will have them executed for poaching. There's this constant thread in the country and the city about ideas of corruption and what it means, and also the role of wealth and power in the changing landscape. And these concepts...

haven't gone away. And in particular in Berlin Trader, it felt like you were reflecting on our present age where global politics seems dominated by strong men and autocrats. Yes, I mean, I think the other great invention that Henry brings to England, which I personally regret, not that that would bother him, is this idea that England is best ruled by one. strongly dominant male.

And despite the fact that over and over again, we see that it's not enough to be a strong man. You also have to be a clever man and ideally a compassionate man and possibly even a woman. We seem to go back to this. myth of greatness and maleness being combined together, you know, with disastrous consequences. It made me think about Henry VIII, if he lived today, would he be the sort of top toxic influencer in the manosphere?

It depends whether he would be clever enough to invent some kind of tech. thing in the equivalent of a Tudor garage because I think he'd love to be a tech bro. Well, like Steve Jobs. Yes, yes. Or, you know, Elon Musk or any of them, you know. I think he would love to be a tech bro and I think that would...

I mean, that's the new jousting arena, isn't it? That's where you put on your mask and you go out and this time you see who's got the best rocket. But in the old days, you saw who had the best horse, the longest lance. It's about... male competition in a world which is absolutely narrowed down and made safe. And of course, the big irony of Henry's toxicity is that when he's showing off...

as a jouster. He's not even got an opponent in the arena. He's literally showing off the crowd is when he has his most terrible accident. And that's one of the reasons why you should never put your country's power in the hands of a vain man. because sooner or later he's going to show off and fall. Yeah, talking about having your country's power in the hands of a vain man, there was a moment that really made me laugh where Henry's talking about Mary of Guise.

rejecting him to marry the King of Scotland instead of him and then her having two boys die in infancy. And Henry, gloating over the desk, says... Mary of Guise, great mistake, which I could definitely imagine being typed out in block capitals on social media. I hadn't thought of that, but yes. I mean, one of the joys of being... An experienced historical novelist. I love.

having funny incidents in them. So like we know from our own lives that even when you're in the most terrible pickles and, you know, disaster things are happening around you, there is still something that will make you laugh during the day. Still funny things happen. And one of the joys of... writing through the eyes of a woman of court is that every now and then she sees things that are genuinely funny. I'm sure that anybody would laugh at them and certainly my Jane laughs at them.

Is this why historical fiction is still so relevant, as a way to examine our present moment? It is for me. I mean, I think some people glory in historical fiction as a form of escape. But for me, I can never... not be. a novelist of my time. I can never be a novelist without my opinions. And that's what I think makes historical fiction, firstly, very, very clear what time it's written. I can read a historical novel from the 1950s and identify it at once.

as one from the 1950s, because of its deference, because of its conservative values and politics. And you can read one of my novels and probably even tell if it's an early or a late one because of its political... background, which hopefully you just get as a sort of pleasing noise. It's never supposed to be something that sends you to the ballot box. It's supposed to send you to the history books and it's supposed to send you to thinking.

Well, I'm sorry to say that this week's episode is now history, but it's a history you can revisit anytime you want on BBC Sounds. A huge thank you to my guest, Philippa Gregory. And just as a quick reminder before we go, Philippa's new novel, Boleyn Traitor, is out now, and her three picks of influences were The Golden Bull by Henry James from 1904, A Room with a View by E.M. Forster from 1908,

and The Country and the City by Raymond Williams from 1973. I'm James Crawford, and this has been Take Four Books for BBC Radio 4. was featureless and its entire body was jet black. I'm Danny Robbins, and throughout October, I will be sharing uncanny listeners' real-life ghost stories. That's one every single day as we count down to the spookiest time of the year. Suddenly.

All hell lets loose. The sound of glass smashing, heavy objects being thrown, doors being ripped off hinges. It was coming from the cellar. I looked up and was staggered to see a humongous... black triangle floating silently over the rooftop. Join me as uncanny Countdown to Halloween every day in October on BBC Sounds.

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