Closing Statements : The Lake Oconee Murders

Coney murders. First, going into this, I felt a deep sadness for the Derman's and for those who knew and loved them. Now that I've seen the case evidence, particularly the photographs, and now the I have a better understanding of the savagery of those murders. I'm angry that there's some sick bastard out there who may very well get away with this. Secondly, I empathize with Sheriff Sells. If there's anything else he could possibly do. I don't have

any idea what that would be. He left literally no stone unturned. There's a lot of things that he did in this case that if it were my case, I might not have thought to do, but he had the presence of mind to do them. Some things about this investigation were purposely left out of the podcast, but let me just say this, if I ever turn up missing or murdered, he would be the person that I would want investigating my case. Thirdly, here's what I think. I

know with a high degree of confidence. This was not random. This was not done by a professional. This was not done by the mob. I agree with the sheriff that Mr. Dermot's head was likely removed to hide or to destroy some type of evidence. I do believe a gun was involved, and so does the sheriff. None of the Derman's children had any role in this. You have to keep in mind that they've been cleared, they cooperated with the investigation. You have to understand that whoever did this was not

familiar with the inside of the dermans residence. So, assuming that what I just said is right, and I think it is, here's what I think did happen. I believe that two or more adult locals arrived in the early morning by boat. Nobody saw any strange vehicles, but somebody did see an adult male in the Derman's yard that Saturday. There were no unaccounted for boat rentals and there were no reported boat thefts, so I do think it was locals with a boat. Whoever did this certainly had a

dark personality side. It may have even been someone with a murder fantasy. I think that the person or persons responsible for these murders went to the Derman's house because they wanted to extort Mr Dermott. After all, Mr Derman was perceived at least to have access to some cash. That raises the question of how are you going to extort Mr Dermot, And that's where Mrs Derman comes in.

I believe that she was going to be abducted for ransom, but that Mr Dermot tried to fight physically fight to prevent that abduction, and then the whole plan fell apart. That would account for Mr Dermant's apparent defensive wound to his hand. Remember, she was killed with a blunt object, a hammer or something similar to it, and I think he was shot. He may have also been beaten, but I do think he was shot. And then while the body of Mrs Derman was being bound and weighted down

and sunk to the bottom of the lake. I think someone or some one's remained behind at the home to decapitate Mr Dermant's body, and then after Mrs Derman was to bosed of in the lake, whoever was in that boat returned to the Derman residence, and then everyone, along with Mr Derman's head, left by boat. Given the evidence that I've seen with my own eyes and based on my discussions with the sheriff and others, that's the most plausible explanation I can think of. And here's the worst

of it. If I'm right, there's a killer or killers on the loose right now who live on or near Lake Okoni. And unless somebody who knows something makes that one phone call, they may very well get away with it, or even worse, they may do it again. So before Sworn moves on to other issues in other cases, I wanted to look into one other question that's been on my mind, and that question is what kind of person would do something like this? What sort of twisted psychology

might be involved here? Those of you who listen to our sister podcast Up and Vanished, you're no doubt familiar with Dr Maurice Godwin. I reached out to Maurice to talk to him about this very question. I mean, the crime itself is very unusual. You know, after reading everything that I've could, I think that one of the main

motives behind this was retribution. I mean, anytime that you're in business and making that kind of money, there's always a chance that you've crossed someone, but you don't ever know it. It's definitely somebody with a criminal history. You are likely find them in the burglary files. There's no doubt about that. Likely that the motive was a retribution. And I do not believe that the head was taken for shock value. I don't believe that the head was

taken for a trophy or anything like that. It was personal and the head was taken to show that they meant business there. And I think it was the ultimate revenge, the ultimate retribution, and I think that that that's exactly what it was. This is what I call a cognitive object individual. Their cognitive awareness during the crime that anything but leaving evidence that are very forensically aware. But the

object part is how they see the victim. Rather than seeing a victim as a vehicle, the vendor age, rage and anger on, they saw the victim as an object, just a lifeless things sort of like a mannequin. And so when you see something a person like that as an object, then you don't have any kind of repercussions psychological guilt or anything like that. When you do something like removing the head, they have a sociopath tendencies of no remorse, no empathy, no conscious They have no empathy.

They cannot empathize that like for example, other people cry or other people hurt and have feelings. They don't have any relationship to that. But this person here solve These people there's nothing but objects, are lifeless mannequin and that's all they did. And removing the head. Doing what they did to his wife was just like going to get

a hamburger. When you step into someone in one's house, and especially the house that biggest stuff, uh, and you've never really done that before, you are out to make mistake X. But if you've been in people's houses illegally, breaking enter and stuff like that, and you've done it on a regular basis and stuff you're comfortable at, like you're at home, so you're very more forensically aware. These

people were very forensically aware. These are the type of people who see people as objects, objects to control, objects to treat like a lifeless thing, a mannequin. That's exactly how they saw these people here. These are the type of people that will not talk about this, So it's gonna be through investigative work that you're gonna have to link them. It's not gonna be that somebody said something

to somebody else and and causing a til um. You're looking at somebody that's uh in their late thirties early forties. Based on the type of crime. It was the age of the victims, in the sophistication, the elaborate planning that they did with this. This was a drawn out They drew this out on paper, and they planned this out and they pulled it off just like a military exercise. These people did exactly what they meant to do. They were planning to cut his head off before they ever

stepped foot on his property. There's no doubt about it. The age, I mean, just considering doing this to a real elderly couple, a man cut eighty eight years always stuff. This was really personal. Somebody had hate. Something went wrong in this guy's background that he didn't realize that was bad as it was this was a random thing. Somebody had a personal revenge and they sought retribution against this person. Good afternoon, Sheriff. Thanks for talking with me again. Thanks

thanks for having me. We've learned a lot about the double murder of the Dermans. You know, last time we spoke and when we visited with you, we briefly covered the family members. But can you elaborate on how you eliminated family and close friends as suspects in this case. Yes, obviously we obtained cell phone records of the children. The estate of the Dermans passed only to their children, although there was one grandchild who did get a very small

amount of money, but the three children inherited the estate. Obviously, we had their cell phone records, which included the tower sites that we're being hit during the time of the crime. None of those tower site for anywhere in the state of Georgia, much less near the German home. Obviously, that doesn't completely eliminate someone, but we polygraphed all three of the children, and of course they all passed the polygraphs. Nothing in the course of our investigation so far has

revealed any sort of animosity or anything like that. Between There are no children and the victims. So through a combination of the totality of all of that, we eliminated them. Now you've been shared for what over twenty years now, And of course I wouldn't presume to know what you plan to do in the future. But if it just so happens that your retirement comes before that break in

the case, how would that affects you personally? If it happens that you retire and there's there's never any resolution to this case. First of all, let me say I don't have any intentions of retiring anytime soon. And secondly, if I did retire, I certainly would like to if that were to happen, I would not just turn over all these boxes and files. I'd like to sit down and explain everything I knew about the case. It's the only way that you could do that and do your

duty before you retire. And even if I retired, I would certainly be available and willing to help in any way you met my retirement. But let me stress again, just because I've been sure for over twenty years doesn't mean I'm ready to retire. What is the current situation of the reward that's available and what is required for someone to be eligible to receive that reward. I don't have the total. When I first solicted that reward, the

FBI contributed. I have money pledged by various organizations. But when I solicited that money, I asked that they give me that money for a year. If we didn't use it, I'd give it back And and many of the people who made those contributions then asked for the money back, and that distributed back to them. I don't know what the total is right now. I presumed the FBI still

have ten thousand available. I don't know how many thousands I have here, But that's for information that will lead us to an arrest of the person or persons responsible for perpetrating this crime. Since the last time we spoke about the Lake o'coni murder, Sheriff, you found yourself back in the national news with another double murder on your hands. Would you like to give our listeners from Insight into

that case. Well, unfortunately, last Tuesday, you're in Putnam County and state prison bus was traveling through our county and too prisoners and the bus somehow got up into the driver's compartment and quite viciously murdered the two corrections officers and got out of the bus, carjack and individuals who was motors who were simply passing by, and then fled from the area, which quickly evolved and to the nationwide man hunt culminated a couple of last Thursday evening up

and Rutherford Kenny, Tennessee near Murfreesboro. And obviously I was leading that man hunt. It was probably the biggest man hunt that drew the most attention. The desperate man hunt going nationwide. Tonight, two inmates in Georgia overpowering their guards and a prison bus, killing them using the officer's own weapons. The inmates then getting away in a stolen vehicle. They car jacked officials now warning they are armed and dangerous. This is forty three year old Donnie Row and twenty

four year old Ricky debos Uh. They were on their way from one prison to another. There they are when investigators say that they busted out of the locked part of that bus. Now they overpowered two guards, stole their weapons and killed them both in front of thirty one

other inmates. Georgia authorities tonight tell us that the inmates who got away after murdering two prison guards out running around with forty caliber glocks and could kill again a terrible sudden act of violence, launching a statewide manhunt for Donnie Row and Ricky Dubos. Considered armed and dangerous, there is a sixty thousand dollar reward tonight for their capture. On the run now for sixteen plus hours, put New

County police are desperately searching for these two fugitives. Forty three year old Donnie Row and twenty four year old Ricky DuBose both are career criminals who are serving hard time, and police say one of them is a member of the Ghost Faced Gangsters, a white supremacist prison gang. All arms of law enforcement are now gathered here. They are doing searches. They continue even though it is dark. The worry here is to find those two convicts before they

hurt anyone else. The card dating white, they are in a great ob Alperabat meantime, officers from all jurisdictions are checking out each and every reported sighting of the escape beats and telling residents be on the lookout for this green Honda Civic and these two faces. The bus ride from where they escaped early this morning was unscheduled and was moving thirty three inmates from one prison to another. Atolice say the two men broke through a locked barrier

and back and attack prison transfer. Sergeant's Christopher Monica and Curtis Blue both lead behind devastated families tonight. They need to surrender before we find them. I saw two brutally murdered chrish saw. That's what I saw. I have their blood on my shoes. On June, just one day before the release of Sworn, these two convicted armed robbers allegedly shot and killed to Georgia corrections officers during a prison transport, and they happened to have done this in Putnam County.

Share Sills, of course, was one of the first riding officers and let a nationwide man hunt that wound up in Tennessee following a series of carjackings, carths of breaking and entering, a home invasion, and finally ending in Tennessee following a high speed police chase where they actually shot at the deputies with guns that were stolen from the murder victims in Georgia. Sheriff Sills said that this high speed chase ended in Moore County, Tennessee seventy five miles

southeast of Nashville. Just a few days later, Sheriff Sells went personally to pick them up and bring them back to Georgia, where they now face capital murder charges and are facing the death penalty. A lot of people are asking about DNA or the lack of DNA. Was there ever any DNA of any type that was collected that could not have been identified? Every piece of tangible evidence that was there or any place that we thought there

would be. We submitted that to the LAMB. I won't elaborate on what results may or may not pasulting from their tests. There's a lot of people that are asking about a deceased child of the Dermans that had been murdered some years prior to this. Was that episode looked at and do you think there's any connection? Yes, obviously when we heard that they had a son who had been murdered, we obviously lioked to that immediately. Almost the dun was moved here, had been living here for fourteen years.

They left the Metro Atlanta area in two thousand, shortly after their son was murdered. Their son was not a drug trafficker, He was not in any cartail. He was none of the their son unfortunately, was like so many people that I've dealt with over the years, and this one son who was a drug annic, and as many people know, they start doing anything to get their drugs. You know. This this was a typical scenario where you know,

he'd stolen from his parents and did death. So eventually actually did a robbery one time up in New York and he was in and out of rehab and things like that. And on his birthday of the year two thousand, he and another individual went over and west side of Atlanta, kent over near the area they called the Bluff today, which is well known drug area in the city of Atlanta, and he had a friend went over there to buy some drugs. I highly suspected he probably was using some

money that he gotten for his birthday. And unfortunately they pulled up on the street to a drug dealer over there, and that individual apparently was not settling that day that the individual was ribbing and shot both of them in their car. The nerman son died there at the scene. The other individual lived and someone was arrested, prosecuted, tried for murder and is presently in prison from the murder of the Durwan boy and aggravody assault of the other person.

That person survived, of course, you know the Nermans that didn't go to the trial. We or people told us that there was getting ready to be a parole here. Absolutely untrue. People told us that the dervants had written letters to the prole board. Did not happen. There certainly seems to be no nexus between his murderer and his parents. Were We saw the guard shack at the entrance to their subdivision at the time. It did not have gates.

But was it a situation inteen where if you lived there and you were expecting a guest or a visitor, that you would have to call the guard shack, call security and leave their name at the front. Yes, there wasn't a bar there as there is now, or the scanner. If you were remember of rentals or had a work per minute, in short, if you had a rental sticker for you Winshield issue to you, you were way through. If not, the procedure was that someone had to call

ahead to allow you admitting. Of course, unless you were said you were going to the clubhouse for dinner or something like that and you were way through it at that time. Obviously we chet those records. Needs to say, at least at this point in time, that did not believe anything it was beneficial to us. To your knowledge, were they expecting any visitors or any contractors or anybody

like that to come to their home. Not to my knowledge, but you know, contractors went in and out of there constantly. A contractor with a propriate documentation was way through. Those people who have listened to the podcast and have subsequently gone back and looked over other publicly available information, the overwhelming theory seems to be that whoever did this came and left by boat. Do you believe that to be the case. Not necessarily I don't. They certainly could have.

I will say this Mrs Nerman's body because of where it was and where we were covered it over on the Green County side of the lake in an uninhabited area that was not accessible by the vehicle. That, in combination with the weights being on our body, the hydraulics of the water movement itself, all of those factors, and we consulted with Georgia Power about water flow hydraulic experts at the University of Georgia made us comfortable knowing that her body had not moved very far once it begin

to ascend from the bottom. Therefore, we are confident that her body was disposed of by boat. And obviously she could have been transported, and all of this could have happened by water, but it also could have happened by ground transportation, or it could have happened by boat. What about the weather between the Saturday when you believe they were murdered and the Tuesday when they were found. Was there any weather activity that could have interfered with any

forensic evidence that may be present outside the home. No, I can't remember right now. Obviously we probably have that documented, but there was nothing evident outside. It was a For instance, it was very clear from where blood was insider in regards to the decapitation procedure itself, that it the garage doors were shut at the time. That was very clear from physical evidence at the scene, but the newspapers and things like that had not been collected for a couple

of days they were driving. Through my knowledge, there have been no extensive rain or anything from the time of the murder until the time we discovered Mr. Dermot's body. How do you search an entire exterior or front yard and backyard of this residence. For this particular case, we even searched beyond that. You take a hundred deputy shares and you put them an arm to arm and you

walked through the woods. Sheriff, are you still making yourself available to investigate any new leads that may come up in this case? Absolutely peeled and the best example, you know, we got some information doesn't look like it's going to be anything to it last Friday, right when I was still very much in the aftermath of this most recent double murder here at this county in obviously, I stopped what I was doing and responded to that and assigned some some people to do some things based on that

information that was Friday. It doesn't look like it's going to be anything to it. But I mentioned that only to assure everyone that we're still working on this case and are going to continue to work on it and continue to work on it aggressively if and as any information comes For so, if anybody has any information that they think could be helpful, what's the best way for

them to get that information to you? Gota my office at seven oh six or eight f eight seven, or email me at shaff Seals at Puttingham County Sheriff dot org one or the other. There's obviously tipline on our website which is putting Them County Sheriff dot Org. And I promise you we're gonna look into it and respond to it. More than likely I will be responding to it personally. Sworn is produced by Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta.

Sworn is mixed and mastered by Resonate Recordings. If you're in the market for podcast production, go to Resonate Recordings dot com to get your first episode produced for free. I'd personally like to say thank you to share Off Seals for his time, and I wish you the best of luck moving forward. I'd also like to thank you the listeners for tuning in. We're currently working on several

new cases for upcoming episodes of Sworn. Each month we will bring you a new multipart mini series exposing the untold stories and the hard truths behind major cases, wrongful convictions, controversial legislation, and much much more. Stay up to date and subscribe to Sworn now on Apple Podcasts, and while you're there, please rate and review Sworn. It helps us move up in the charts and brings in new listeners.

Stay tuned right here in the coming weeks for a sneak peak of what's coming next month on Sworn and don't Forget. Our sister podcast, Up and Vanished, is approaching its season one finale with only three main episodes left. Subscribe and tune in too Up and Vanished every Monday. Thanks for listening. Guys, See you soon, s I see't I see heep. Blood in the Water, Jarmy Johnny see Blood in the Water.