Episode 170

Welcome to Sword and Scale Rewind with your hosts Matt Fondelier and Ian Bag. Hey, what's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Sword in Scale. Rewind that podcast about your other favorite podcast, Sword in Scale. I'm one of the hosts. I've written a couple episodes, but above all else, I just love Sword and Scale. My name is Matt Fondelier. Very excited you're here with us, and very excited to be joined once again by my buddy I Bag. Hey about it? Howai about Hey? I'm

doing good. This is technically like our Christmas episode. I know it comes out in like January, but this story takes place on Christmas Eve, the Magical Christmas Story. Who doesn't love murder on Christmas Eve? Yeah, he's screwed up. That's supposed to be an Easter story. Yeah, that's true. They got the dates backwards. What the hell's having a baby on Christmas not having murder? Well, maybe we'll get into some of our Christmas traditions

because it factors into the story a little bit. Okay, you know one of the victim, let's show up to Christmas morning. That was a big flag. What's your Christmas tradition putting on a leather skirt and drone of fuck, I'm wearing them. But it's the twenty first century. If we all have different traditions, Okay, you gotta respect them all. He hung them upside down like it was hunting. Oh, terrible, brutal story. It's a brutal story. But let's let's let's let's start off things easier. Sure,

I was on a plane the other day. I'm pretty sure somebody was wearing one of Michael Boudet's shirts that don't comply shirt. Really yeah, and I want to I want to, I want to go up and say hey. But then he didn't have his nose in his mask, so I just like, I can't talk to that guy. He was kind of comparing.

He was kind of good, all right, I'll keep my mouth in you motherfucker's When you're on a plane like that, do you ever get harassed by the stewardess is to pull it up a little bit, because I've heard, oh yes, I've heard from people like I was just trying to take a nap, you know, and then they woke me up and told me to put my mask up. Um, A guy beside me the other day he was his mask fell off and he wasn't wearing it and they tapped him.

Yeah, like but he was asleep, like it was mean and it was dark and he sat up and he's like, I don't know where it is. I'll get you one. She won't. Wow. Yeah, which is fair enough. I just I just crank up the air because apparently that's the best thing done not get COVID is just crank up the air. Oh, really make sure it's not going. And I just I wear the airflow. Yeah. I wear an N ninety five Matt k N ninety five masks when

I'm when I'm flying, and I feel safe on the planes. As far as what they said, the way the air circulates in a plane is the way it should circulate in most buildings now, So I just sort of circulate. I just sort of feel like we would be hearing about the just funeral after funeral of airline stewardess in airline pop. Yeah they're doing but you don't

even you don't hear that. Yeah, they get they get it, but it's it's not as as uh I'm and I'm guessing it to work, you have to be uh vaccinated so that's why, you know, vaccinating makes it makes it much weaker the the whole. When I got it, I was vaccinated, so yeah, made it much easier. So see, I'm not so great in that scenario because when I'm on an airplane, at least a couple of times I've been on a plane since all of this started, you

cry the whole time. I know, I am nursing a water bottle and eating pretzels. I'll do it the whole flight. Yeah, I'll do it the whole fucking sucking on a pretzel first two hours. I mean, I cut off your blood pressures. Crying because it's just been eating so much salt. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Um, but yeah, I don't know. I just you don't like wearing the masks. It's not really, it's not nobody. Nobody likes it. I just don't. I'm just like,

whatever, what are you gonna do? Is just kind of like that thing. I'm like, what, I'm respectful. I don't enjoy seat belts. Yeah that's true. I listen, I'm respectful about it. I'm not gonna be like, I'm not gonna be that guy. But I'm also gonna go ahead and enjoy that pretzel for a lot longer than normally would. Sorry, I just am I can't help it. I think that's fair. I I just I just people losing their shit is just when I'm worried about lately.

Yeah, I mean like there's too many I'm just like, ah, there's too many people. Just I don't know if it's people that don't usually can't afford to fly. Yeah, too cheap is what's It's so bizarre? Why the fuck like people bringing on their own alcohol onto a plane. I'm like, how the where the fuck are you getting the alcohol? Because I can't get my hand lotion through the fucking through through through security, So how are

you getting a bottle of tequila there? Well, let me tell you something that they're called traveler bottles and are low enough that they can go through the metal detector and they're less than like a tube of toothpaste or whatever. I mean, I've just heard that you could bring travelers onto an airplane and talk, Yeah, what what do you drink? What are you? Um? I think on a plane? My go to in the real world would be like a gin? Uh really? Oh hell yeah, love me some gin?

My good surprised you're not on one of these fucking nine one one calls that they're making. Yeahs say thing me and my loather skirt on a plane. I'm thinking in terms of my mixers, and all I got are the sodas that they're going to offer me. So I'm sticking to either some Jack Daniels to put into some coke, or I'll just take some vodka to put into some orange juice. That's if I'm on a morning flight. You know, just really to think about it. It's vitamin C. You gotta get

it up there. Yeah, exactly, good for you. You're not a big drinker or are smoker or any of that stuff. Well, my problem is my my recovery time is. I used to go hard when I was younger, so my recovery time now isn't as good, and I work too much to be able, so I need I need at least three days for one for those to be hungover and then two more to come out of the clouds back. Yeah. No, I feel that more and more every day.

But I enjoy it, and I do enjoy it, and it's just I don't want Some of some of my friends, like were the same age and they're still going hard, and I'm like, you must be shit at work. That's all like a thing. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I like to think I'm okay at work? You Okay, how often? How many days do you drink? I feel like a doctor. Let's not talk about that. I'd rather talk about murder. Okay, let's get back

to murderer. Let me answer your question by saying, I host a show about murder, and I think a lot about some really dark things in I need to get I need to clear my mind. Yeah. Um, this is a great episode, though it is another headline grabbing story about the murder of Kevin Bacon. No, not that Kevin Bacon. Three three degrees from Kevin Bacon. Yeah, two guys that got away and then he didn't. Now. I felt an obligation to compile my list of the top five Kevin

Bacon movies. Oh, very nice. I don't know if you're a fan of the man, Okay, I am. I do love Kevin Meagan. Okay, this is my opinion the five best Kevin Bacon movies. Number five, Apola thirteen, Okay, take that one. Number four, Hollow Man sci fi movie where he invisible Man turns to the Invisible Rapists. Yeah. Yeah, great movie number three, The River Wild with Meryl Streep about a

roboting kidnapping. Yeah. Classic number two Footloose. Okay, this is the classic probably definitely definitely his biggest movie, right, definitely his biggest movie. I would also say, if you want to just google Kevin Bacon Angry Dance, you'll watch the greatest three minutes ever filmed, which is the Warehouse Dance from Footloose. It's incredible. Oh bizarre when dancing gets angry. Yes,

and the number one Kevin Bacon movie with a bullet tremors. Oh, Trammers is good, excellent movie about giant snakes that live underground and eat people. All these movies. You should watch him if you haven't seen him. Folks, so they have welcome. Does he have to be the star of the these movies? No House. Oh he's pretty great in that. Yeah. That was his like film debut. Yeah, thank you sir. Yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah, it's I think it's one of his favorite.

I mean, he's an incredible act I think everybody in that one is fantastic. Yeah, that's a good one. I should have included Animal House damn it, which one would you take out? Your reaction to Hollo Man wasn't what I hoped, so maybe out you know why because I didn't see it. Oh you didn't see that? Yeah, I remember it, but I didn't see it. It's uh, it's one of those movies that's so bad

it's good. It's about I remember the scientists who discovers the ability to become invisible but takes a very dark turn and decides to use it for like raping people like you would not think it, especially with Kevin Bacon. You think he's a nice guy. He has not a nice guy in that movie. No he is. He is getting back for for what's his face, stealing all his money in that movie. But anyway, we should probably talk about

the actual This isn't the Kevin Bacon hour. Well, a couple of weeks ago you talked about You're I don't know if it was a real case or not, the hooker Bacon murders or something, And that's all I can think about when I was listening to this, And that's funny. Yeah know in Canada and it's kind of the same thing. It was a sexual guy that was picking up hookers and after he'd he'd keep him as slaves are bitten, then kill him and feed him to the pigs. Yeah. Oh wow.

He had a pig farm just outside of Vancouver, so all that bacon was going into Vancouver. Oh no, yeah, that's grosser bacon. Well, this story takes place in the remote countryside, and I've decided I'm never I'm never going to live outside of a city. Every one of these stories that starts like covered road outside where it takes an hour and a half for the nearest fucking ambulance to get to you, You're just asking for trouble people. So when I was listening to this, I was like, oh, it's

right next to that one case that we like. I put them right into the next property. Yeah, like one door. Oh yeah, basically what I did. And can I bring up right now the best audio we've ever had on any of these shows, so clear, so many great voices, Like one one of the witnesses, you like, is he right from the weather Channel? His voice was so good it was crazy. Yeah. I think there are some very unique twists in this story. There's some great twists.

I do love the opening where there's the sort of double nine one one calls of these two scenarios that are you have to go back and listen to it twice because you're like, is this the same phone call? Right? Luckily for you, dear listener, you have us here and we can just play you clip. Yeah and help if you listen to our show first and then go back with that's the way to do it. Yes, we've been

promoting it wrong. Oh time. I have a few clips of the first, the initial nine one one called the nervous caller, Hello, nine one one, How can I help you? Hey, let me play this for you. We got a lot to talk about. We're gonna I can't believe where I am. I don't know, like I never ever anything like this happened. I don't very drugs movie, I don't know. I will up in the fucking basement. Okay, embolasement with a love thing on I am my ankle and I cut it with a bunch of knights that I have on

my French Okay, do you have anything on you right now? To me, I don't know about you like I wanted. Part of me was having trouble believing this guy. It really sounded like like a Alpaccino monologue. I woke up in a basement, okay, and I had this knife follow me, Like, are you in a Tarantino movie? That's what? Right now? How are the nine one one operator kind of had your attitude all right? Then? Hens fantastic, even the even the freaking basement. Excuse my

French. Yeah, wow, way to get crazy. I wake up after somebody's trying to kill me. I'm not going fricking that's true. That son of a bitch trying to kill me. We gotta get the fuck out of your fuck your French people. I did think it was terrifying. The idea of being like lost in the woods, where you've escaped the captor's house and now you don't know if you're king back toward the captor's house or away like

that, to me, is is so terrifying. M And then to have another nine one one call come in that's almost the exact same situation, but that time the person ends up at somebody else's house, ends up at somebody else's house who won't reveal his own address, which I thought was sort of a weird play. Yeah, like, I get it if somebody came up

to my house all bloodied and flipped out. I don't know if I would necessarily be like eager to tell him what my address is so he can convey it to the people on the other side of that phone, right, But at the same time, I mean, that person was desperate for hell. I didn't understand why he the guy whose house he showed up, didn't call the cops. Yeah, well maybe in that moment because he was like, was on the phone with the police, Like the guy who escaped was on

the phone. He was standing in the doorway. But you're you're right. I mean, you would think I wouldn't stand there, I'd be calling the cops. He would think the door would still be closed. Yeah, there's a guy at my door and he has got a night here, and he's bleeding and he's yelling. Now this guy from sorry, I want to go back for a second. Here. The first the first guy I skipped over this part um it was on a business trip. According to him, he

was on his business this trip getting off the bus. A couple of things about his story that I thought were kind of crazy, which was that he was being confined by metal chains that had leather straps, which to me seemed

to sort of defeat the purpose of the magical chain. And there was a butcher knife nearby, which, again, if you're being held captive, you would think that you wouldn't leave a knife nearby, unless you unless I'm the murderer, because the murderer wasn't around right, correct, So he'd like falling

asleep or something. Yes, So I got him strapped up, and I just happened to putting a knife down, and I go to do something else and he wakes up and he sorry, I'm nowhere near the microphone as I'm falling backwards, because I was he So what I was saying was the murderer gets them all strapped in upside down, he falls asleep. Now I gotta go get my other stuff, so i'd go away. I had just put my knife down. He's able to reach it, kind of like a comedy

of errors, even though it isn't a comedy. Yeah, right, and then he's able to cut himself out of it, which I just didn't. I was like, wow, that knife being upside down and be able to cut yourself out of that, it's pretty pretty talented. Yeah, that's pretty tough. Like that's very circu to sola shit going on there. Yeah, I count it. Do you think that this guy, this killer had like part of the thrill was letting them go m Like you wouldn't even think of

that. I would think after the first time, like you would change your security protocol a little bit, like the fact that it happened again a month later, like you're just fucking you're terrible at this man, You're terrible at holding people hostage? Or do you kind of get off on it a little bit? Because that was the other part of this second scene is that the killer then pulls up in his car dressed in a kilt, saying that, oh, I was just running him down because I wanted to get he's got

my outfit. He's got my outfit. I need to get that back. We need that for my play that I'm putting together. Yeah, I don't know, Yeah, sort of. But it's interesting that he chased him down the second time. On the first time, he didn't chase him down, right, So it's one of those things where you hear about a lot. Is he getting bolder, you know? Right? So I guess it's got to be a little bit of that. But I don't know. Maybe it's maybe it's the thrill of the chase. Here's a knife. If you can

get it, you can get out of here. Yeah, that's all I'm saying. Guys, creepy as ship though. Everything about this dude is just gross, supergross. The fact that neither of these gentlemen press charges is another very interesting, interesting fact for the beginning parts of this story. Obviously, if you have some shame of your lifestyle, you don't want to get out.

I guess I get why you wouldn't want to press the charges, but I would think that that experience you had would be Okay, let's horrific enough. Let's stop right here because I remember this part now, right, Let's remember the first guy's voice. Yeah, I'm going to play a little go ahead, play a little bit of it. I'm a volunt your coin advocated. I came here to help on the CFC reading and I was supposed to remember at the bus station I met this guy. I'm by you shooting it

on me. I don't know. We went out to the car and drops. We went to the Sha Han soda. I woke up in the patient and obviously drugged me. Okay, when I get that trooper close to you, I'm gonna need you to put that butcher knife down though or back to auto true scooting out sign in another wards. Okay, your officer is in no danger. I've been a play. You don't need this throw it and the wards. But but I just don't want to on you. Is there anything else on you at all? Just I don't even know if I have

my cigarettes. Okay, I don't have a bag or anything else. I want my bag nice, Okay, all right, I can't believe Darryl does what you know? Come on, that's his conversation. Other thing. People know it's lifestyle, sure, yeah, yeah, and there's nothing wrong with it. I'm not saying there's anything wrong way. I'm just like, people know your lifestyle, so why would you not press charges? Why would you not? All right now, I'm gonna blow your mind right now, Mo,

I can't believe you said that during this episode. Sure, it was a really bad transition, wasn't it. Woh, here's what I'm gonna say. Should I hang upside down? Usually usually they're updates and I do them at the end of the episode. But I have an update to this story that really completely floored me. Okay, and I want to share it with

you now because it's related. It's related to what we're talking about. Okay, So here's the deal, you guys know because you've already listened to the actual episode of Sword and Scale. But at the very end of the episode, Mike suggests that the businessman that we've just been hearing clips from Honey was going to file like a civil suit against the killer, and that is how the episode ends with there are going to be some legal proceedings that this guy's

going to have to deal with because of this story. Okay, here's where it blows my mind. This was not included in the Sword and Scale episode because when you hear this it, well, I'm just gonna I'm gonna stop teasing. Here we go. Carlson. That's the guy's last name, James

Carlson. Carlson's suit states that he traveled by bus from New York to Michigan, specifically to take part in an acknowledge BDSM encounter with Latunsky that's the murderer, after meeting at the time his husband Jamie Arnold, and then Latunski through Facebook. So let me pause my own reading here. So this encounter began with James Carlson the businessman meeting the ex husband, and the ex husband said he wasn't into that kind of stuff, right, so saying like I can't

deal with this lifestyle. Yea. More so they're saying he did have part of it, or he was part of it when lun or when Carlson arrived, that husband had already moved out, oh before the inc But he was originally going to meet with the husband and meet with both men. But when he got there found that the husband or is now an ex husband. He's not there anymore. That's not that's how long. That's how long it takes to take a bus from New York to Michigan. Yeah, he's able to

move out of the play. That's how long it takes exactly. All right, Well, I'm still not even not the freakiest part here, get ready. Carlson also claimed that Latunski quote hung him upside down naked and role played pig and butcher while performing sex acts that got out of hand and that's when he got scared and ran. Okay, so I thought that was disturbing too, Still not the most During part of this, Carlson called police, which

we heard he had the conversation with the police. The police dropped him off at a nearby gas station, where he called Mark Latunsky. Not only were no charges filed at the time, but with no money and nowhere to go, Carlson returned to Latunsky's house for a week and continued to participate in b DSM sex acts with Latunsky until his return bus ticket to New York was valid. What what in the living fuck is happening in? How insane is that? Okay, he went back for a week and didn't get murdered, went

back for a week, didn't get murdered. But the reason that he I can't even finish my sentences right now, Like the reason he stayed with him was because he was waiting for that bus ticket home, didn't have anywhere else to go. What kind of business this man? Is this? What are we talking about? Business's not a business man, but you're not a business man. I bring it down? How he How hard is it detained change a bus ticket? Yeah? And I mean we heard the panic in this

guy's voice. Yeah. Yeah, he went back to that guy's house for a week and stayed with him. Look, I was kidding about the pagan butcher come on home. Does he say what happened to him? There? Was he abused more? Or that's that's that part of this Why is he suing him? That's a great question knowing all this part, Yeah, what what's what's he suing him for? Like? Can you sue somebody for these four I mean, I don't even have it written down here, but it

was for like the holding him captive and all that stuff. Sounds like somebody's taking advantage of something bad that happened afterwards and using it in there. All right, there's gonna be a couple more updates at the very end of the episode. But that part, like that recolored my viewing of the entire opening of this episode, because I really felt really bad for this guy. Yeah,

now I kind of feel less bad for him. I know, I'm not supposed to victim blame on the show, but that's but he wasn't really a victim. He didn't he just got he got tipped upside down and got away. There was actually a victim in this story. Later on. You know what's funny is I as soon as Mike brought up that he had patents out, Yeah, this is the killer we're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, oh, there's gonna be financial rep Oh that's interesting.

I did not think about that angle at all. Yeah, I probably has a lot of money to us. Yeah, so, because usually people don't have a lot of money to their name when their murders or when whatever. I just but as soon as I heard patents, I was like, oh, he's got constant money coming in. Yeah, he definitely has plenty of time for this hobby of his. Yeah. Um. Also learning that the sexy game was called uh, when I say something pagan butcher, then

I start to think he this was his dreamboat. He actually had someone whose name was Bacon. Oh my god. I didn't even think about that right, Like, now this is why this happening. This story is incredible. Oh my god. I wonder if he was like today's day, today's the day. I wonder if that's why I killed him. I mean, it's really and I wonder appropriate to laugh about it, But I mean, hippie could be. How badly was I don't remember in the episode did they say

how badly he was butchered? Like, is there anything any chance it could have been a mistake? His balls were cut off? He ate the balls oh man, who doesn't Rocky Mountain. That's a hell of a slipping fall. That's just a mistake. It's one fantastic slipping slipping fall. Oh I cut off the ball better. Oh my god, I didn't know. It doesn't say anything about being uh being being being making a cannibal. Yeah, I did this episode. I didn't. How did I miss that? They

definitely talking aboum though. Shit, I did not make that part up. That is said. I didn't say his balls, and it did. Ian, I'll find the fucking clip. Don't make me find the clip. I will. I wonder if my dog was barking when I missed that, and that's what he Yeah, I guess he didn't do anything. Well, I listened to him. I walk my dog sometimes and so he got distracted. Yeah, yeah, no, he he hung him upside down. He would have loved me, Ian bag. He stabbed him a bunch and cut off

his testicles so he could eat them. And then he went to a holiday party. I remember the holiday party with that husband, with the guy that, theoretically, based on the other story I heard, could have been there. I was like, I think, was I wonder if he brought an order a play the balls. Yeah. Oh, oh my god. He has a new meaning to hanging balls from the Christmas tree. He put this funny little sack on my tree and I thought it was I thought it was

supposed to be Sada's presence, but instead it was Kevin's Bacon's bacon. Oh. If you're still listening to the show, thank you, We love you. Send us a TWEETE tell us your favorite bacon Dick. I want to talk a little bit more about this crazy guy at the center of this episode, Mark Lutunsky, who his Facebook page was not under his real name, it was under oligos Kai Lucas. He said that he's a straight arrow,

a chemist and an experimentalist, and he loves the leather killed. I also found it interesting that he's posed in several pictures with food cleverly covering his genitalia. Was just gonna say, just like an Austin power. It's clearly what

that was in homage to yeah um. But it is yet another story where he is just time after time of him getting in trouble with the law, being ordered by the courts to under go mental evaluations, and he's not taking his meds like it's just fired from a job because he wasn't taking his meds. Right, Yeah, so you're just like, well, what how is this guy acting out before? Because I don't think many jobs would notice you're not taking your meds, So you've got to be acting out like yeah,

like doing like paranoid screams and stuff. Yeah, well, we do hear that he had a lot of psychological issues diagnosed with depression, anxiety, paranoid schizophrenia, borderline personality traits, all these things like a sweetheart. Yeah. It is interesting though that you hear about all these different diagnoses and then you always have to give the like caveat of just because you have those things doesn't mean that you're going to hang people upside down and get their balls off and

trying to get nothing to do with it. But that happens to be this story this guy. Can I go back to his Facebook profile? Yeah? Do you think this? And do you think we have to get rid of names on the internet if you join grinder? If I joined Grinder, do I have to use ian bag? You're just asking about the anonymity of the idea, Well, it gives it gives people um confidence to do horrible stuff. Yeah, yeah, I don't. I mean, I don't know if I mean, listen, I met my girlfriend who's now my wife. I

was gonna say, I thought you were marriage son of m Richard. You're pretty ballsy bringing that out. I met my girlfriend who is now my wife in the era before the swipe apps, right, So I don't know if would that be Match dot com that's like Tinder is like the really popular one, the one I did. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I didn't do Match. It was Plenty of Fish was one of the ones that I was on. It's not even how I met her. I met her at a party, like a Plenty of Fish party. It was a fishing party.

It's not a fishing party. Um. But my guess My point was, I don't know if I seem to remember on the dating site you kind of had to put your real name. But I don't know if do you. I don't know. I don't know if you do though, like I mean a name if you're gonna like post on a news article, you don't. But I I guess, though, how the hell are they going to prove it? My name's fucking fishy mcdick duck. Oh shit, that's my dating.

I always knew you're from Eastern European fish duck or whatever. I don't even know what I said, But you're right, you could totally lie about your name. I think you should. I think you should have to put put your real name. How do they prove that? But like the license, yes, when you first sign up. So if if I'm on Apple, I have to put my license in, yeah, and everything from there goes from there. There's always gonna be the like cheap dating site though,

Like that's easy. You know, that's why these sites even exist. Like you're the guys that are going on Grinder, they are just fucking for a hook up. It's funny when Mike said it's like Tinder all my gay friends, Grinder is nothing like Tinder. Grinders meeting at a bush at a park and it comes in your face. Yeah, I mean the name alone implies

many other images and just sparking a fire. I was kind of freaked out to hear though, that on an app like Grinder, that if you delete your text of the conversation, that it gets deleted from the other person's account. That is wild to me. Yeah. And also again same idea that if you deactivate your account. It can't be reactivated. They have to be able to do that. In the case of like a murder, they should be able to see who creates Yeah, stalking, it seemed a little too

easy to go awry. I guess it's all just under the banner of trying to be discreet. Now, I guess. So remember when Ashley Madison was huge. Oh of course you remember that, and then I don't just disappeared like overnight. Those sites are still out there though. For sure we've had guess we've had guests on the Corolla show or like I'm the new spokesperson. Really oh yeah, for fuck around and find out exactly like insert sight here,

Like they're still doing that. Huh wow Wow. But you know, listen, people have a hard time finn and love Ian stuff out there. People say there's plenty of fish, but really there isn't. Mostly crabs. Oh I'm on fire, Um I I back, No, No, I don't know. I just the whole dating being anonymous. I get it.

I get if you're just trying to fuck around, and you're just fucking around, right, But I think it gives an opportunity for a bad person to to slide in and I I don't know how you stop that, and I don't know if it's Yeah, as the victim, he's saying, Oh, this could happen, but I'm fine with it. M. You know, yeah, meaning like that it's out there. It's just a risk that you know, it's yeah, it's it's part of the well, you know how you have to say when you pick a sport, you might get hurt.

H kind of the same thing. Yeah, because he also talks about how there's like a bunch of hey do this if this happens now, M. Yeah, it's talked about a lot more. Now that's true. I do think that. And again I'm sort of pairting what's said in the episode. If you are going to go have some sort of like indiscreet hookup or a more discreet hook up, you should at least let one person know right where you're going, especially if you understand the technology of the app you're using.

But I can I can see his point. It's taking a bust to Michigan from New York. Yeah, that's like you don't really want to tell anybody I got I go four states to get some cock. That's what that's saying. Yeah, um, yeah, again, I don't. But so if this guy had just like come clean with this thing, that's a part of his life. But if he went back, there's no way he's coming clean with it, right, Well, then there's that whole part of him going back again, which is just so insane to me. So so, how

could you be so careless? Well? I trying so hard not to say terrible things. I am. I'm ready to try not talk. But is he a victim if he went back again? It's not like he was in love with the side, right, Yeah, you know, I showed up from Michigan. I couldn't leave him. I was just so we were sorry. We were entwined for over twenty minutes, you know what I mean? Sure, I don't know. I don't and I don't. I don't know how much I believe it. I didn't have the money to get back in

my bust, I don't. I've never seen a bus ticket with a with a date on it before. I thought it was like, if there's a seat, get on, Yeah, just hop on, man, Yeah, who knows? Man? That fucking flips me out big time. It's weird. Right, Let's talk about Kevin Bacon. Now this guy, this poor guy looking for hook up on Christmas Eve and just sounds like a fun love and he sounds like my gay friends. He sounds like, I'm gonna go get some cock and then I'll be back a little bit later and we're gonna

have cosmopaltens. You know, I'm gonna have so much fun editing clips of the show. And I got I got so much dirt on you, now, my god, so many good clips that I was gonna say it's gonna say that part. I'm like, Okay, remind me to ask you afterwards. I want clips. I want the clips to be able to put on my on social media to advertise the show. I'll give you access. But Kevin Bacon doing this Christmas Eve hook up, but things have gone wrong.

By the next morning, when Kevin's family has their big Christmas breakfast and Kevin is nowhere to be seen, it sounds like it's gone wrong within like half an hour of him arriving. Yeah, he saw the guy's name was Kevin Bacon, and that was like chump, chump, yep. I'm curious, do you have any Christmas morning traditions in your family that you're gonna have you ever hooked up with anybody from the internet, Well have you back in the day? Look at you? Oh my god? But it was it was

dial up internet, so you know you're safe. That's good because by the time the message got there, so did you like you know? Um, Christmas Christmas? Uh, we try to go to a movie on Christmas Day every Yeah. We love to go to a movie on Christmas Day. Um we haven't last year, of course. Um we also we um we walk around the neighborhood with our dogs on the twenty fourth and see all the lights. That's fun, I do. I hated it as a kid. I just enjoy because we take a drink and we go right. So yeah,

yeah, basically that. Yeah, you dress your dog of a costume. Um. No. For the Christmas card, every year, I come up with something different. So this year. This year we board my sister in law and brother in law's kids and use them as our own family. That's good. That's good for our Christmas card this year and last year it was the dogs. I can't remember where the dogs are doing, but we usually it's just the dogs. Nice. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. My

family does a big Christmas breakfast as well. So I felt I could relate to this moment that happened in this episode of having the big breakfast and a guest not showing up. Isn't it When it's a big tradition and somebody doesn't show up, you know something's not good. Oh sure, especially something like Christmas Morning. By the way, confused listener, Yes, I am Jewish. My family celebrates both. I wasn't going to bring it up. Yeah,

I know. There's there's definitely a couple fans out there who ripping up my Jewish card right now. They're ripping it up. They're saying, how dare you, sir? Just to let the other Jewish people know he enjoys Eastern much more. Woo. There's another mystery surrounding this case that happens in this moment of Christmas Morning, which is that the car of Kevin was found parked in a convenience store parking lot with all of his belongings, including his

phone. Now they were able to get the conversations from his phone. Thank god, those texts weren't deleted, which you would think that Latunsky guy would have deleted the text and that would have been game set match. But the mystery is why were all the belongings in the car. Did Kevin take an Uber to the house from an undis closed location or did he drive the car

to Marks and then Mark moved the car later? I think from the conversation we had with not we, but the conversation Mike has Mike didn't happen. But the conversation with the guy that didn't meet up with Yeah, I say

he was parked there and probably was headed off to something afterwards. You know, you're just going to hook up, and was headed off to something afterwards and for whatever reason, and we know now it was part of the kink, was showing up without knowing where you were, knowing anything, showing up from New York on a bus. Yeah, so there was something. There was something in the kink like that, you know. But why no phone?

That's the part that bothers me. Maybe was it just like the cruelest of fate that he also just happened to have forgotten his phone in the car. Maybe like just getting into the Uber. I don't think I got to reach into my pockets and realize, because immediately the first thing I'm gonna do when I get into an Uber is go, I needed distrack myself so I don't have to talk to this uber driver. Wow, you were a dick, So I would immediately be looking through my phone and notice that when we're

not on the air, looking to throw your phone. I see you next week, jerk. Do you think maybe uh Latunsky? Do you think he picked him up not send an uber? You know, I like the uber angle. I think that they would have we wouldn't know that an uber was called. It would have been on somebody's phone, right, that's true, and that that's never say brought up. Yeah, but I don't know if it's even relevant. I mean, you know it's only relevant. It's just

weird, is what you're saying. Yeah, and trying to determine, like why the car was left behind. Yeah, I don't know why it would be at a convenience store. You know, it's like a Dollar General store unless it was I have you ever been to a Dollar General? I've been just to a dollar Storely different, aren't they? Okay? What's the dif Well? Dollar General is basically a grocery store, Like it's almost like wool

Worse or Target or something like that. But they fuck it up by calling the Dollar General because they started before the Dollar Store, where it's like that was the name of the Dollar General. We're the Dollar General, but it's not. It's not a dollar store's And I found out this summer by going to one in Virginia with my wife, and I was like, this place is fucking fantastic, wow walking around, where as I've been judging for a

long time the Dollar General being the Dollars store. Yeah exactly. Yeah, in my brain I thought it was like the dollar Store. Yeah, well, apparently they're changing their name because people, that's how if you're not familiar with it, that's what you think of it as a dollar store. Yeah. Yeah, so harazing items. Man, So him being parked there isn't as weird as it would be as it would be if it was a dollar store. Yeah. So basically he's parked at a Target or a Walmart.

Sure, so that's not as weird that. You're right, that's not as weird. That makes it feel more like, let's meet at a public place first, Yeah, just to I can make sure you're not a crazy person who's gonna hang me upside down and cut off my balls and try to eat him. And then once they've passed that test, then I'll get into going to Dollar General. I figure it out. Then, Yeah, so I think I think he got into his car. Yeah no, but still, why why not the phone? I don't Yeah, that's what I mean unless

here we go. Now your theory's playing out because now he is talking, he's parked his car, left his phone in the car. He's talking to Latunsky, and then Latunski just just come with me, you don't need that. We and they just gets into the car, and then he's now really screwed. So he's basically thinking he's going to be back within an hour.

Maybe he's not even thinking. We don't even know. Maybe he is doesn't even know he's going to his home, right, Maybe he's just like, let's go for a drive, so just go, ya think somewhere, and then they end up back in his home. See there you go. That's that's starting a bit. We should start our own police company. So good, Um, I do don't talk to the police, for God's sakeey, And we did two episodes about that. Let's start talking about episodes that we're

gonna have to have a four week break. Yeah, I did think it was interesting that Uber. They bring up this very interesting point that we were always told don't get into a car with strangers, but now there's an app where you do exactly that. I thought, Wow, that's pretty brilliant. Smart people put their kids in ubers. Oh yeah, kids Uber to school like it used to be. No, I was an Uber driver. Do you know that? I did not know that last week? Thankfully not.

But in the lead up to my wedding, I needed to make some extra money and so I was Uber driving at night. Money money. Okay, so you didn't realize what pays for weddings. It's money. Being an Uber driver was one of the more surreal experiences of my life, just because of the people that got in your car from the people have gotten into my car. Did you ever feel not safe? No? I never. That never

happened. But it reminded me because I did take a small child at some point, like this little girl got out of like a dance studio and I was like, yeah, my mom, Beverly's account, you just take me home. And I was like, all right, cool, obviously I'm a good person. I just Uber this little girl. I was like, this is this is bizarre. This should not be like legal, there should be certain people that I have to take kids, right, Yeah, you should?

Did you have Is there some sort of criminal record they check for you to drive. I honestly only remember like scanning my driver's license. But do you remember you do have to like go maybe you get your fingerprints taken. There was like a little thing that you had to do before you got your

sticker for your car. What that process was, I don't remember. It was not very intense at all, And certainly it's not like you're checking in with a boss every day before you start your shift to make sure you're of the right mind, you know, like I'm here in California, especially pre pandemic. I mean, I can't even count how many times I used Uber, very very convenient service, but it is a little bit freaky when you kind of take a step back and just think about what it is you're doing.

Well, even worse, step back and think how little um the big tech giants think of humans. Like my face, it's basically Facebook given you a ride and they don't give a shit about you. Yeah, I mean, you hear stories all the time of just weird confrontations in Uber cars and stuff. I once was told that Uber started because they were they they were going to use it in taxis, like that that app was for taxis, and they went to taxi companies and they didn't want anything to do with it,

so they just started their own thing. And then the taxi companies got real pissed, yeah, and got destroyed. Yeah. And now with the total mass, especially again like in LA, it's just, yeah, what a disaster. So but yeah, can't wait until they're driverless, you know, I thought that, But then I've also seen all of those like weird thought experiments about like how if a robot driver is about to run over a person, but they could swerve out of the way, but by doing so

crash the car and kill you. Should the robot car be programed to do that? Oh my god? You know what I mean? This episode just took Ah, It's like a which should it do? What does it do? And how do you make that judgment? You know, if it's going to hit two people, let's say a mother and their child, or crash and kill you, like does it? I don't know if I want that? Oh my god, two lives are worth more than one. How do you program it? Ian? How do your program does it save you all

the time? You know? Is that a question you have to answer before you get into the car? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that it's called a waiver. I'm sure there's going to be a lot of those. I don't know if it's ever gonna work for that reason alone. Also, here's the thing too, I love driving because of the freeing experience. I thought you're gonna say power and the power to to go at my speed literally right, I drive the way that I want to. I'll follow the laws

hold over a lot. But you know, if if there's no cars ahead of me, I can go faster than sixty five. I can go sixty eight. I go seventy two if I'm really feeling frisky. But robot driver, we're never gonna do that. Robot drivers are only going to go the speed limit, and it's frankly gonna it's gonna piss me off. You know, you can, you can kind of shame and guilt an uber driver to

go a little faster. But if there's there's if there's lanes for autonomous cars, it'll be different because it'll never slow down, so sixty five won't seem like you're going slow. Because you'll always be doing that. M hmm. Let's see what you're saying. I think there's that's how I think there should be. I think there should be a lane that driverless car is driving.

But what happens when any number of things go wrong? Like you say, it's never gonna stop, but yeah, there's be some the oil's gonna leak from a car, and the battery's gonna run out, and then there's gonna be a stalled car in that lane, and then what but the but the robot's gonna know. Our computer is gonna know what's going wrong with a car before it happens, unlike you. Yeah, it's not gonna let it get that far. But why am I? Why? Why am I playing on

the road on the contech company's side. Yeah, this is weird. I was going to say. This whole conversation started with the fact that robots don't give a book about is why we gotta do it? Yeah, oh my god. Well, I'd like people tell me whether I want to know if you listen to the show, send us a message either on Sword and Scale, rewind On on Twitter or Matts or Eyes Twitter and let us know what you think your your choice is kill the little woman and baby in front of

you, or swam into the wall and kill you in the car. It's a tough choice. Make the decision you gotta before you get in the car. I want to talk. Here's another question that's brought up in this episode. Do you think it's possible that Mark Latunsky murdered before these events? No? No, you think those runaways, including the guy who ran away and came back, are were just they would have escalated them. There would have been other DNA in that house. Yeah. Oh, that's but a guarantee

if there's JIS everywhere in that house. I don't want to think about that. Maybe think of that. I was just thinking of the blood everywhere. But then I was like, there's other DNA that he's bringing into the house. Now I think I think he just got bolder and boulder and got caught

on the first time. Yeah. I mean, it's such a gruesome crime, but he also seemed woefully unprepared to cover it up, you know, like he was still just hanging from the rafters when the cops got there, Right, I would think maybe if he was he would have mass killer. Yeah, he would have tried to hide it more. What were your thoughts?

Do you think he watched a lot of Sorry I didn't mean it, but that show That's Dexter because it was kind of a Dexter time kind of killing right, It was a little bit a little bit but then yeah, I mean, god, we get so many horrible ideas from watching things. So he's just he's just when they talk about is him being married to his wife? You know, just sound like just one of those people that's just mean. Just oh yeah, you just don't want to be right, guess

so mean. And I know you don't ever google these people or see what they actually look like, but if you want to see what Mark Latunsky looks like, not a looker? He not a looker. He is exactly what you would think of, just a creeper who praise on other people. He's how about the wife? Was the wife a looker? I didn't see that picture. I only saw the picture of the dude, so I was interested in, Um, what were your thoughts that too? Yeah? Better?

If I'm making martinis cosmopolitans, you better be. I just wanted to pay to see the picture of the dude. That sounds I'm interested what were your thoughts on makeup mogul Jeffrey Starr, who's also interviewed to heat the episode. But he's been canceled, right, Oh, I think so now that you mentioned that. I didn't actually think that until you've just now said it.

I remember hearing something, Yeah, everyone's canceled. Everybody. Yeah, Well, in comedy, if you get canceled, get nominated for a Grammy. It's what I'm gonna awesome. I'm trying to get canceled. Well all people off the dudes listen to this episode, and I'm not gonna have very far. Hey to tell you he did a couple of jis or that's the dessertness. I was trying to explain to my wife. I was like, it's

a good thing. I'm not ever going to run for political office because I have said so many things into a microphone I can't even remember half of it. Or it's or somebody in your family's running for you? Did you rather say, yeah, exactly. I want to play a clip here of this YouTuber. I thought he said some interesting things. I had some thoughts. I want to share them with you. Here we go. What's really heavy

heart? It's one of my dearest subscribers and fans. His name was Kevin Bacon and he was from a very small town in Michigan called a Swartz Creek, and he was sadly murdered a few days ago. And the case it's giving me weird vibes. The police are playing games, and I really wanted to talk about this case and bring more awareness to Kevin and his family. I thought it was really interesting that he was talking about how the police are

playing games. I didn't understand it. I didn't either. The only thought that I had it's an open investigation, and the police are not just going to go reveal all the information that they have. It doesn't work that way, So you'd think because because they didn't give him all the information, he's like, they're playing games with me. That's kind of what I thought.

And I also I thought it was because they didn't do anything about the other two guys that he thought the police were playing games, like they knew there was going to be a problem, sure, and they hadn't done anything. That's what I kind of thought. I think either way, it sounded a little bit uninformed. You know. I also thought sounded Jeffrey Stars. I kind of had two thoughts about it. I thought it was interesting that he

was choosing to make an announcement at all. Right, it felt a little bit like I'm just using this so that people, the right people will put my name with this case. I also on the flip side of it, though, you've got to maybe kind of distance yourself from it. You know, there's other stories throughout entertainment history of like actors or whoever who kind of get their name raked through the mud because they're tangentially involved, but not really.

So I started my mind started to change a little bit. And also I would say, as a host of a show, I guess if I had heard about some tragic death, I might feel like I should say something about it. I don't know, no, no, um. I I think it was a little bit of both. But I also thought he said some nice things. You know, he's later on he said some nice things. You know, he donated twenty thousand dollars and put the things out there, Hey be safe, you know, And this guy loved I love to

have fun and love to live life. And you know, I thought he said some great things. So I don't I don't know, Although that beginning part is you're just like want Yeah, but you can't judge him for that. You know, people, when you're talking about somebody that dies, you don't you don't always the right words. Yeah, I agree, And again he did donate a lot of money, so I thought that was really weird

him to do that. It'd be weird. Did somebody had a tattoo of you on them and they then helps on their showing and he's been hung up side down? You're like, yeah, okay, did they want to kill me? Right? Yeah? Mentioned that the twenty thousand went to the funeral costs. What's up with funerals costing five figures? This is like a crazy, crazy scenario that I don't know how we got this far. Is it just because people like you're gonna go if you want to believe in like a

heaven and a hell? I don't think the place that your body is rotting in has anything to do with that. Why are we spending this much money on a casket or on a site? I just I don't get it. I don't. I think it's something I don't understand it as well, And I don't I know this is weird to talk about, but I think i'd like to be donated to science is what I'd like to happen before you die. Yep, just before you're out. Way to go, Matt, I was trying to have a nice talk and you decide to ruin it. Sorry,

donate you to fucking science. No, I'd like to. I'd like to, you know whatever. There's there's areas where you know, they do things with your body, but there's also in murders they use you. Uh there's a place where they put you to see how long it takes for you to disappear. Yeah, So I just I don't know. I also feel like we talk about and being environmentally sound, and I don't know how graveyards

are, you know, I don't know why. Sure like it just seems like a waste of space and they just keep watering the grass and the cutting the grass and the and it doesn't seem and it doesn't seem like the body goes back to the earth where. Yeah, have you seen they have those new newer things where it's like makes your body part of like a tree. Oh that's cool. I thought that was pretty cool looking at a tree. Not like that, it's like a scarecrow. Yeah, like that, like

one of those faces you put on a tree. Yeah, like that. No, it's more like, you know, your ashes and stuff mixed in with soil. Oh, it's interesting your physical body necessarily, But I thought that seemed to make a little bit more sense. And then instead of this weird, desolate graveyard, you have like a forest with like renewable energy and stuff. I mean, it's it sounds nice. Who knows what the realities of it are. Well, honestly, by the end of the day,

we're just we're just dinosaurs which turned into fuel. Like, yeah, so how we have to I'm guessing that's what we have to do, is we have to just turn into some sort of energy source. That's all we are. Good talk, way to fucking bring it down, Jesus Christ, how much is a funeral? Well, what do you want to do? God, damn it, you're worse than my wife. I don't want to I don't want to get life insurance. You're just gonna kill me. Ye, So there's another By the way, why do they call it life insurance?

It should be it's non insurance. Though it's insurance. Sounds like you're gonna get another three years out of something. Yeah, that's great. Um, I wanted to wrap this up with some talk about the the hearings, the trial, and initially Mark said that he wasn't Mark Latunsky. Mark Latunsky was his nephew and his real name is Edgar Thomas Hill. He's a descendant of a royal Welsh family called the Thomas clan, and then for I guess, for a very long time, continued to maintain that that's who he was.

I mean, this guy is is completely insane or he's brilliant. I mean he we know he has these masters, we know he holds several patents. He obviously has levels of brilliance in him, but he has certainly crossed a line and I think he knows that it keeps him out of prison. He's yeah, he's brilliantly crazy. But I thought it was interesting they because they kind of talk about the two types of insanity and how you can be guilty

but mentally ill or not guilty because of insanity. But in either scenario you're gonna go to jail. It's just a question whether or nothing it though. Yeah, they keep testing it while he's not ready yet. Well i'll push it next year. Yeah, So that's what he's doing well. I have an update for you up date. You are correct. It just continues to get pushed still to this day. So here's the deal. He's in a

hospital, I guess more or less eating balls. Yeah. So in June of twenty twenty one, that is when the initial lawsuit deposition between the killer and the businessman. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So in that initial hearing in June of twenty twenty one, Mark invoked his Fifth Amendment rights one hundred and twenty two times. Jesus so literally to every question that he was asked. He just pled the Fifth back. In January of two thousand and twenty, he had entered an insanity plea and then in

February a judge had ruled that he was incapable of standing trial. But in October of twenty twenty, the courts reversed that decision, saying that he would be able to start trial proceedings. So he has been found competent. The trial was set to begin in July of twenty twenty one, but as we're taping this, it still hasn't started yet, and there's some speculation that it could maybe start in January of twenty twenty two, which is basically when this

episode that we're taping is being released. So it's maybe it's happening like right now, but not not likely, you know. I think those guys always are good at ulterior motives and ulterior plans. Obviously he wasn't good at planning

out the murder to get away with it. But yeah, one of the quotes I wrote down, I had never really considered just because you're crazy doesn't mean you don't know what you're doing right, which I that really is a brilliant way to think about it, because you think, oh, they're they're playing guilty by insanity. They were just so crazy they didn't know. But it's it's not that simple, you know. And again, you could be crazy, but you do certain things. You you lie about things, you

will change your story. So there's a part of you that does know, Yeah, what you're doing is wrong, that's the That's the thing. At what point are you so far gone that you don't know the difference between right and wrong? And I don't. I would like to say it would be you know, a kid that has mental retardation, You know that that might and I don't. Even then, we all know they know, Yeah, they know. If they know, well what I just you don't know.

And that's lawyers are paid to get people up. They were they do. By the way, where we've changed. You asked what the businessman was like accusing the killer of It was neglect, battery and false in prison neglect. Worst week in my life. Yeah. Um, he had no must had tiny little balls. That's why I didn't cut him off. That's the only reason why. Oh my god, I'm going to a Christmas part. I got nothing. I gotta cut off your nuts and roast and Kevin Bacon nuts

on open fire. Well, folks, we're not going to top that. There's no way I'm topping that. I had other topics, but forget it. Kidding. Great show, a good show, Matthew. I feel like we paid tribute to both Kevin Bacon's. You know, we told the we retold the story. We also had some laughs along the way. Yeah, it's pretty successful. Not loose. Yeah, no, put on your Sunday. Oh, probably have to take that off. Probably keep the song that

I was thinking. We probably couldn't have to take that down off the internet. We're keeping it, folks. Thank you all for listening to our show. We hope you enjoy it. Please give us a nice review, send us a message, let us know you're out there. I've been getting lots of tweets from people good. I'm really excited. Everyone's been very nice so far. Everybody hates me. I love it, I love you. I love it. I've been having a great job. I have had some people

show up to the shows that hey, we listened to the show. We came to see you because we listened to the show. Thanks funny so and I've had a couple of people that say, we just listened to the rewind show and I was like, oh, all right, it doesn't make sense, but okay, well I think it makes sense. People don't want to necessarily hear the details about the balls being cut off. And we got better voices than Mike. I don't know about that. He does have a good

voice. He's got a great voice. Well, hopefully we'll get him back on the show one of these Yeah, we gotta have well come back on and tease him a little bit. Yep. But in the meantime we'll just make fun of each other, all right. See Larry Matthew bag back. Follow me on Twitter at Matt Fallen to leer. Check out another show I'm on called The water Cooler sounds fun. Ian's on Twitter at Sarah Ian bag

Bag. Give a listen to Around the Bag starting in a new studio this January, and we'll started recording in January started they'll be coming out in February, so go to listen or look at the old podcast and see even new one starting in February. That's awesome. Again, We love you guys, thanks for the support. As Mike likes to say, stay safe, and as I like to say, don't be a douchebag. Yeah. Sort scale we want is a production of incongruity Media. If you enjoyed the show,

leave us a five star rating and a glowing review. No criticism please, it hurts our feelings. Be sure to tell your friends about us, but not your family or co workers because I'll think you're weird. Okay, that's it. Until next time. Don't be a douchebag.