Episode 169

Welcome to Sword and Scale rewind with your hosts Matt Fondealier and Ian Bag. Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome back to Sword and Scale rewind. I missed you, guys. It's been a really long week, but I'm glad you're here. My name is Matt Fondelier. I'm one of the hosts of the show, and I'm also really glad that Ian Bag is here again. Well, hello, Matt, you ready to talk? I'm some murder We're not. Are we talking murder day? Or is this the actual first ever

true crime podcast? We're just discussed crime that could very well be the case. Yeah. We As you know, listener, we tend to cover the episode number that corresponds with the episode of Sword and Scale. So in the case of episode one sixty nine, we're talking about episode one sixty nine. But here's the thing. Episode one sixty nine is kind of about episode one sixty eight. It's very much about one sixty and we've already covered episode one

sixty eight in excruciating detail. I'm told, so, is that what somebody told you? I'm making that out on my own worst enemy. I was like, you guys talked a little dude. Yeah, it's my own brain gone. He's cutting in off too many times. You should let the man talk more. Now. That's why everybody in shot up and let Matt finish. That's what they tell me all the time. I'm like, I'm sorry,

I apologize and quit saying like. That's what my mom says. See you don't like when you say the word like, But I can tell you I never notice it. I've heard you pointed out in episodes, but I don't notice it. It's when I'm really thinking my brain goes like like, like, look like we all have those, we all have the ticks. I've got lots of so and lots of my mother. Yeah, screw your trying to relate to you. Goddamn it. Oh good times on nine?

Yes, do you remember one? Do you remember what episode sixty nine was? Actual episode sixty nine? Remember? Oh? I don't, just because we're talking about sixty nine. Yeah, just wondering if you remember doing that one as well. I could look it up real quickly, because you know I will. Why don't you you feel about because you did? You did a hundred and forty of these before I showed up, right. Oh yeah, I was actually I don't know if everybody knows the story. Gather round,

Gather round, round, folks. So here here's the deal, guys. I don't know if you've heard, but I work for Adam Carol Let's come up on this show before. Now completely unrelated to that job. I loved this podcast, Sword and Scale. Now, Adam Carolla's now unfortunately ex wife, Lynette Corolla was really into true crime stuff, right, and I got you divorced them not killing him. That could have gone a totally different

ways when she might have been learning and stuff. Yeah, well, I told her about this awesome show called Sword and Scale that I thought she would really like. She and her co host, Stephanie Wilder Taylor got super into Sword and Scale to the point where they reached out to Mike Boudet. Oh. Now for a really long time, Lynnette and Stephanie, the podcast co hosts of a show on the Corolla Network, became the hosts of Sword and

Scale. Rewind I was the producer of that show, mostly because I stuck my big nose into everything and say you should make this happen, and I want to be a part of it. So even though I was not on the microphone, from episode one. I was behind the glass since the very first episode. So you started producing and then you've turned into that. That's right, by the way, this may be the first show that women have been replaced by men. Sorry, girls usually goes around the other way.

We need to get some females involved well. Anyway, So over the years my role has changed a lot over there. When did you start going on air? UM, I am not exactly sure. It was probably it was well over one hundred episodes. I would say more like hundred and fifteen something like that, where Lynette just became extremely busy and and I was like, I'm just I'm here anyway, I live in this building. I wonder if she started to break down too, because just murder, murder, murder coming.

It was a lot to go. It was a lot to listen to, and then a lot to kind of reanalyze and try to figure out the best way to approach it comedically. I had sort of guest hosted a few episodes earlier on in the run um and I don't think they knew how much of a ham I am. You know, Oh no, I was like, fuck yeah, I gave me the mic. I do this by myself and they're like, Matt, we're trying to take this very serious. If you should pump the brakes a little bit, could you could call him the

victim of loser? Yeah, that's that's an unfortunate theme. Oh goodness, So there you go. That's uh, that is that's the whole story. So that's why Corolla and Sword and Scale are like they're kind of related through me. And that's how I ended up here because I tried Adams Show and You're like, hey, you should talk about murder. Yeah. It was like, you're a funny guy. I should try to ruin your life and I don't feel like you're do enough crying anybody. Yeah, you know it's

great. Is I will bring up the show on stage at the end of my show. I'll say, hey, I got some podcasts and one of them is you like murder? And recently I was in Chicago. I was like, that's that's our sport is murder. So I brought that up. Did you get like a no, I gotta I gotta plot. Really funny every time I say do you like murder? They all clap. It's so funny. That's great. So I bring up Sword and Scale and I say, I'm not on that, but I do the Autopsy Show. That's what

I call it, The Autopsy Show. A certain scale that's good. And people are like wow, and then and then uh, and you should listen to that. And I go, we do it from the Adam Corolla studios and people go, oh, it's so funny. How it just grows. Oh, oh babe, a lot of buzzwords. Yeah, they just they usually at the beginning, they just think I'm some douche in my closet with a microphone. Yeah, now I'm in somebody else's closet. That's right.

Sadly, we are recording from a large closet. Basically windows, that's what production window. That's what studios are though, basically closets. That's true. I'm gonna I'm gonna skip her head in this in this thing. Sure, they talk about podcasts and radio versus radio. I know I wrote that down too. So which do you think which which impresses people more? Podcasts or radio? Interesting question? And then why has radio been such bad money for

most people? Where some people make a lot of money? Okay, Because you know, I've have these friends that are in radio and they don't make much money, and then there's a couple of people that make I shit done. I don't know why. I just suddenly got scared that I said shit. Well, to talk about the last part first, the entertainment industry is filled with jobs of bizarre pay levels, and so it doesn't seem that unusual that you have some people making not a lot and other people making an obscene

amount in what is essentially the same field. I feel like that happens a lot in the entertainment realm. So you just think it's it's not it's not. I mean, there was a I've been at this company for a long enough time to remember when people didn't know what a podcast was, and so in the beginning, it was very difficult to explain to people what podcast even

meant without using the word radio. It became a lot easier for me to tell people I work in digital radio, and then people kind of understood what that meant. Um. I wonder why they didn't stick with digital radio instead of podcast. Yeah, I'm not sure. I think because the iPod, you know, I think that may have had something to do with why the word podcast became such a catchy name. There's somebody out there who like takes

credit for inventing the word podcast. I'm gonna say something really might embarrass me and might make me. What is Well, this is only the fourteenth episode we've done together, so it will possibly be the worst thing. You said, what is pod? Like pod? I? What is? What is pod? Yeah? What is it? What is an iPod? A legal drug that the kids do? We're yeah, but is I'm not sure? You know, Okay, so I'm not so so it wasn't something else that

equals podcasts, right? It doesn't know, it's just yeah, I'm not sure why. I'm almost positive it has to do with the word iPod, but I could be completely So It's kind of like windex compared to glass cleaner, you know, sure, yeah, yeah, clean X compared to issue paper Yeah, okay, all right, you got me? Yeah, there you go. And I mean, I think podcasting became way more lucrative when people started being able to sort of program it into their cars. And the

amount of commercials that you hear is significantly less. You would hear way less, you know, eight minute commercial breaks on the radio for eight minutes of content, way less. And also, well, I think we've discussed this before whereas Mike can tell a story where he doesn't have to have an edge, like there's no cliff he can fall off. He can go as far as you want on the story, whereas radio and TV you got to keep

it in their boundaries. That's a great point too. There's all sorts of like the FCC and censorship, and so far, at least podcasts have been pretty immune to that. They sort of have become a home for free speech, right, which is why I like people like it. I like it because for me, podcasts, I like podcasts be kits. You get to

curate your own radio station, is what you basically are doing. Sure, so I can go from hockey to murder to comedy, you know, and I get to listen to everything in a ride or where where I'm at the gym or whatever. Yeah. So, and on this show you get to listen to murder and comedy so good that somebody dies and then we laugh, We laugh. What do you do for a living? We laugh at dead people. It's great. You should check it out. Oh my god,

well this episode, yeah, that's true. This is an episode where nobody actually died because the entire episode is a reaction show. It's sort of its own rewind show. It was right. It was like, let's talk about what happened in the last episode, and there was his response to the last episode. It was his response to people's response to the last episode. That's right. So if people hadn't responded the way they had, I don't think

he would have done this one. I think he was shocked. I mean that was the sort of opening MONOLOGU was about, Yeah, most of you guys are pretty cool. Well maybe not most of you guys, but some of you guys are cool and the rest of you dick. So when I when I think about when I thought about this, who I just fell off my chair trying to think about um, I kind of I thought it was

don't talk to cops like that section. Had he renamed it something like just the way it was sounded, maybe some people because people react to certain words. People I do a joke about being molested and peep key laughter, Yeah, well people boo it and like why would you boo the victim? Like it makes no sense? So also here is molest right, so they don't hear the whole thing. And I think that was the same thing with that

episode's title. Yeah, sort of like click baity. Yeah, people were just reading the headline of it and not right taking the time to understand it within the context of the episode. I don't think he did that on purpose, though, No, I don't think so either. Right, Yeah, he was really trying to focus on the like protecting your personal liberty when you're

involved in a crime. Like I think he's talking about a pretty specific scenario, not saying if you get pulled over for speeding, you don't have to talk to a police officer, or if somebody tells you not to go over there. You know, I don't have listened to you that. That's not what he was saying. But then you're like you said, just the title, don't talk to cops. People see that and they go, oh my

god, here we go, Yeah, here we go. Dang thinks better than but like they actually think that guy that's taping the cop from inside the window, can I see you? Right? You get out, I don't have to talk to you, Like that's who they see, right, Yeah, But that's not what he was saying. No, not at all. And it's it's it's interesting when you hear this and when you the types of cops I don't think detectives should be called cops. Yeah, we were kind

of talking about that. I think in the last episode we kind of did that. But also it's even more this episode. I'm like, because they do talk about defunding the police in this a little bit. Yeah, which is stupid. We all know that. But I understand what they're trying to say when they say defund the police. But there are nowhere near what there should do. There should be different types of policing. Here's a thought parallel

to this. Here's what I'm thinking another way, a metaphor, if you will, all right, you can't call a chess prodigy a checkers expert, see what I'm saying. I don't know if that made sense saying it out loud, but yeah, that made sense. It's on the same board, but it's a completely different game. Yeah, And if you're a detective, you're like a chess player and you have a whole different strategy of how to win that game. You might be good at checkers, but it's a different

game. Right, So I can see what you mean. How maybe being a detective versus being like a cop could be two different things. I don't think it's necessary for you to have been a street cop to become a detective. Yeah, is the way I'm going out. I think there should be

schooling to become a detective. Only from my experience with I have a couple of friends that kind of are in the realm of law enforcement, and it would seem that really, and this is not to say anything of the officers who are not in this position, but the impression that I got was that like the best and the brightest are the ones who become the detectives. Now, I'm sure that's just pr in people I think it is who really want

to be a detective see it that way. But my father in law is in law enforcement and my brother in law enforcement law enforcement, and I you know, I see what they the way they went. My brother in law is a canine officer, so he wants he's a dog. He's a dog. It's an incredible My brother in law is Scooby Doo. He investigates cross but you know, I mean he wanted to he specialized. There's it doesn't

matter what career we're in. There's the people that specialize and the people I'm just fine with just being general and just not really rock on the boat too much and just kind of going it's it doesn't matter if you're a policeman, like, there's there's gonna be those people there, and there's gonna be bad cops, and there's gonna there's still gonna be bad detectives. It doesn't matter.

But I think if we tried to find those people earlier and then instead of pushing them up while you go, you go walk around and beat fine Like I don't it doesn't make sense to me. That's true. Yeah, I'm also thinking that there want to be a chef, you should learn how to farm. There you go on the field, they're gonna learn all about the different produce and stuff. Yeah, there you go. That's good. I think another reason that this episode was sort of a firestick in people's minds,

I think he hit a little too close to home. He mentioned the COVID nineteen episode as well, being sort of like a fire starter. And I think a lot of these episodes that you are listening to with Sword and Scale, you're listening to a story that is just so completely outside the realm of what you think would happen. You know that people are so crazy, the crimes are so violent, that they almost don't seem real. I know, I certainly have that issue when we talk about these shows. Yeah,

so you think it is written. So this was an episode that, especially given the context of the time it was released, there's just a lot it was just hitting close to home already, some tensions about law enforcement and how we interact with them on a community level, and again, like the COVID episode, there was maybe some implications about how you should be thinking about the

world that we're living in, and people don't want to hear that. They don't want to be told that what they're thinking isn't right or is two people. I can't I can't remember the exact date this came up, but people were were was very wasn't going just A plus B equals C. So people were having a big time problem with it. Um people were still fighting masks, they were fighting. They didn't want to be told things. So I just I don't know, I don't know. I also think because it was

such a different show, it shook people's tree. Yeah, they were odd that that would be the episode that shakes people up. I know, right, yeah, well this is yeah, yeah, but no God. So I also think they were shocked that Mike didn't believe the exact same thing they believed, because Mike's he's he's he's in the Yeah. And then and they're like, no, you're supposed to You're supposed to think the same thing. I think. Yeah, and we we we got the blue flag. That

means we've we've you know, we've got that flag. So that means you got to do that flag. And this is not saying that you backed that flag. Yeah, makes sound like we're back in like the weird like colonial era of people just like having flags and stuff. It's like kind of gone that way. Everybody's got their own flag out there. It's become more emblematic. Yeah, it's not real anymore. Yeah, this is a weird time we're living in. Mike called it a dystopian nightmare, which maybe a little

a little over the top. I don't know about that, but it's it's definitely strange time, that's for sure. A guy on one of the shows I did this weekend was talking about how everything's off kilter because too many TV remakes. That's what did it. It's just it's the time continuous. Yeah, and then they bring back sex in the City and everything falls apart. That's so sad, I will say, given all the talk about how much

this episode upset people, I was expecting a lot meaner voicemails. There's only one well there, no, no, there's there's like three, but oh yeah, there's only one that's like somewhat negative. All the other ones were like really nice voicemails. How you hear like on the very end of the show, well, I agreed with the lady that teaches the class, you know, I agreed with you shouldn't know this. It was a lot of people saying that Mike was spot on, but he does throw in one of

an angry fan. Should we play it now? Now? All right, get ready to be shocked and surprised by the language in this Epp and Mike longtime listener, currently a police officer out and on the West Coast. Just god done listening or in the middle of listening episode when sixty eight and it's

a little disturbing with how you introduced it. Some good advice, but at the same time, you know, being in law enforcement, it's hard enough doing our job and somebody like you spouting off about not talking to the cops. You know, it's good order advice. Well, what about those pedophiles? What about those murderers? What about those people who commit assaults? What about their victims? He didn't do them any justice, You didn't help them

at all. I might want to rethink that next time you start thinking that you're going to start changing people's minds. Um, I'll continue to listen, but UH might want to rethink your whole goal here, maybe in life and UH doing this podcast. Be neutral. Don't don't start leaning one way or the other. Be neutral. There's a lot to this voicemail. There is a lot, I think. But to me, my favorite part of the whole thing, regardless of what you're about to say, is I do appreciate

that he says, I will continue to listen. I get like that. I guess don't continue. He's like, I have all these feelings, but god damn, your show is so good. I'm gonna keep listening. Anyway. Did you find it interesting that he said I'm a I'm currently a police officer, as if he won't be for long. I'm not good at it that he I don't understand somebody that listens to a show and tell somebody what they should be saying. That's a good point. You know, you listen.

You when you listen to something, you listen to it, then you go, that's an interesting you know, I don't you better think about what you're saying. Your whole life goal, that's his Mike's whole life goal was not to get murderers, rapists, and pedophiles out of prison. As he was saying, yeah, you know, he wasn't going against their families. He was saying the guy that didn't do it, that went in and talked to the police because he thought it was the right thing to do it.

Actually, there's a different way you should do this. Yeah, And he is a policeman. Should have said, hey, yeah, you know what, you should do it the right way if you're innocent. It was an interesting part of the voicemail where he even cops to the fact, oh punintended cops of the fact that it was good advice, right, But also, why would you tell people that, Well, he was the thing murders, rapists and pedophiles are not going to tell the truth. Well, yeah,

well that's what they Well you told them to lie. Yeah, how why would you tell them to lie? I hate to tell you, they are not telling the truth to beginning with So I was, it was some very interesting things, and I just I didn't I didn't like him. He was going at Mike kind of in a weird way, right A little bit. Yeah, I think so it was. This is the one sort of negative ish call that gets played, so obviously a piece of it struck a chord with Mike. Do you think he was a cop? I don't even think

he was a cop. That's really funny too. I think I guess anyone could call and leave a voicemail. I should do that because he could have been a security guard. That's true. I'm currently uh, watch keeping watch over the men's room bathroom in the CBS Radford lot, you know, keeping watch over the men's bathroom, And let me tell you a lot of people are dribbling on the floor. You don't want to know the kind of people I've met Little Dick, no need but little Dick man. Um. Yeah.

I think Mic responds to that kind of stuff the way I respond to it. It fight. It sends a like my hair on my book. I'm like, that's not what I was trying to do. Yeah, why are you so dumb? Well, thankfully this episode exists because it allowed him to sort of expand on these issues. Sure did, and his buddy with his fantastic voice, just comes flying and yep, Charles Adams. Charles Adam, as stated, was on a previous episode of Sword and Scale. Rewind.

I forgot he was in the COVID episode, but I guess that was when people had most recently heard his voice. I was like four episodes ago or something like that. Something like that. Yeah, And it was really really interesting to listen to everybody talking about COVID, talking about the written House trial, all these things back then versus how different narratives have changed, and how all these things are viewed now through the lens of I don't know,

like a year or you know, maybe six months. I'm not sure exactly how long ago this one was released, but I'm always fascinated. And that's part of why I love doing the show so much, is you get to kind of hear back on that little window in time that it really wasn't that long ago. It wasn't that long ago, but just enough that we know more, right. I wonder I would love to get Charles Adams his take on what the verdict was that was exactly what I was thinking too. And

I'm sure we could listen to his his iHeartRadio show. I'm sure he talked just right now. I don't have his number. No, we should call him what we should? Let We just said, let's let's send him a text message and not our some sort of message because he says, um, he gives his Instagram away big Daddy law or something. Oh yeah, so we should send him a message and just ask him and then one day we'll just put it on here. Yeah, because I am curious too if his

opinion of it changed. I do not know him at all. I do know Mark Garrigus, who is like an attorney, a defense attorney, very famous celebrity defense attorney. Was he Michael Jackson's he was, and also Scott Peterson's weekwn Oh, he did have a real tough week astle. He represented Jesse Smollett. His firm did as well. So that's a really, really tough week for him. And by the way, we are pre taping this episode, so we're talking about was a couple of months ago, or maybe

a month ago. But it's interesting hearing him. I was in Chicago when that came down, and I would not have Subway the whole week because oh man, you're not getting shit kick because I need to buy a sandwich again. Very strange times. Anyway, I bring it up to say he does a show called A Reasonable Doubt where they comment on legal cases. All the names Adam Curley know, it's funny, strange, gather around. Let me tell you guys another story. Um, but Mark, who represents some pretty

scummy people. It is interesting his position on these cases. It very rarely shifts. You know, he'll he knows what he when he is broadcasting to the world he feels is not going to change. I don't want to speak for him, but that's sort of my observation. But once believes he believes I think so. And it's kind of interesting because that bringing it back to

the episode is what Mike is saying the detectives. Do you and I talked on one sixty eight about why would these interrogators be treating this person like this? They've made that choice and they're gonna stick with it, right, I thought, and I said out loud that maybe it was like quotas, you

know, things that we weren't aware of. But what Mike brought up or what Charles brought up maybe it was Charlie's who brings it up in this episode, which I hadn't really thought about, is just the idea that these police officers have already made up their mind and this is their evidence. It led them to this person, and so therefore this must be right, right, which is this is when they start using the read yeah, read technique whatever

how interrogators that the training behind the interrogation method. I know, I get it that you Okay, let's go back one second. Where were we just talking about? The guy told Mike to be neutral? Right? Yeah, Well shouldn't you be neutral as a cop? Oh? Yeah, see, ye'd want you want the podcaster to be fucking neutral, but you don't care

that the fucking cops are. Yeah, like blows my mind. I get the same way with when when whether you like these politicians or not, when they do crazy things and they don't really get punished, but then you see a comedian say something stupid and he gets he gets boned. I was like, I'm like, where did the twist happen? Where do we doesn't make

sense? Yeah. I will also say that I took umbrage with the idea of being neutral because I feel like Sword and Scale and maybe people will think I'm super naive for saying it, but I think it's a very neutral show where it is telling you the facts of this case that happened. It's it's journalistic reporting on the case, but it's gotta have it's gotta have an opinion. Mike will say the things that are on his mind. I guess you could say that's the show. I guess that is part of the show,

as he's going to inject his thought into it. But it's not a news story. Yeah, he's not doing he's not telling you the news. He's telling you a story of his opinion. Yeah, all right, but he's sound points being undone here. But he's got the facts in it. He's got the facts in it. But he's got you know, he says, I don't know what the fuck this guy was up to? You know. Yeah, like those kind of things. He gives his opinion, but it's neutral. He lets you make your own decision. I think that more often

than not, it's it's him saying, here's what we know. You make your own decision if this was the right thing to do or not right, which I think I don't I think that falls. I know you blame the victim every time, but well sure, but he lets you decide whether you blame the victim or the perpetrator. By the way, let me just tease next week's episode, Kevin Bacon murder. Oh my god, I got a whole victim blaming thing lined up for you for that one fault. I learned

some things that I can't unlearn. I can't wait to share that with you. I'll have to wait for another week. Eight degrees of Bacon. That's gonna be good. Uh. You mentioned you mentioned the read technique. Would you like to hear a robot? Nope, tell you about the retechnique. I would love to hear when Mike said, here's goes. Here's a YouTube, But I'm like, that's the worst YouTube. Can I get not get more listeners? If this is what the bot can get? That man.

I don't know if you know this, but there's actually a sword and scale robot rewind where somebody has transcribed our show. It's just two robot stock all right. I captured a clip. We do not need to listen to more than five seconds of it, but it is pretty funny. Anyway, what is the ring technique. The reing technique is a method of interrogating suspects in a crime. It is used by many police forces around the world, and is particularly popular in the United States. I'm stopping there. I love it

because he just sounds like a nasal, a nasally Ashburger's kid. It goes on in the next one. It's illegal in many countries, right, and that's all that needs to be Yeah, I totally agree. Can I just say, by the way, Mike, if you're listening, I'm available for any vo that you need for sort scale. Please let me read that. No, not go to a robot. I will fucking read the read method. Okay, I could do it. I could do it dramatically however you

want. I'll do different takes. I'll do my version of Mike when they're sending us. Oh, people really didn't like that last one. We gotta keep that budget down on the use that YouTube voice. Yeah. I also was getting flashes of episode twenty, which you know as the puppeteer who ate the baby. Soon as I heard it, I was just like, this is episode twenty is what they sent me to audition again? Yeah, And as soon as I had this. I just had just cold sweat lying in

bed. No, no, I thought we were gonna have to do that one. Yeah. Not the robot voices, anything but coming at me. They're all coming out. Now. I thought it was unique, not unique. I thought it was an interesting thing to say that the read method is perhaps more immoral than the good cop Bad cop technique. Now, I never really thought of the good cop bad cop technique as being immoral. I guess yeah, because if you're doing it right, you got the good cop who

is scary, well, not the scary one, the bad scary. Yeah, yeah, the good cop is. By the way, I got a little freaky when Charles told the story. I went and I told him it's twelve of your old daughter looked a little bit older than you was. I'm like, what the fuck is going on here? First the robot voice, now this? Yeah? Um, anyway, I just I don't know, did you ever think of good cop bad cop as really Like? I just

thought that was that's how you did That's how you did it. Yeah, Like, what if you're not going to do the read method and you're not going to do you can't waterboard, what are you supposed to do? Hey, did you do it? Yeah, just like direct questioning it. All right, well sorry, and he say, didn't do it. We can go now kiss closed? Did you? Um? They say, He says, there's a lady that calls in and says that thank god, the read UH technique isn't one hundred percent. It's got to be uh as well as

something else has to be with it. Um, like some sort of evidence has to be with it. It can't. You just can't say, hey, I did it right, I believe, I believe that person, I agree with that person, I agree that was But at the same time, you're like, well, how do how do they actually get people to say they did it they didn't do it and then find evidence that they did it,

Like it's there must be so like slivery, It can't. It can't be like these Oh my goodness, I said, like the guys in one sixty eight were just assholes lazy, But there's got to be sometimes where it's so close they're not being assholes, are lazy, they're really close to being right, but they're not. Yeah, well, of course those would be like the exception that proves the rule or whatever, like I'm sure you're right that has to happen, and I just feel really bad for those people,

you know, when it's that close. And actually, one of the interesting statistics that Mike brings up, I'm reading here forty two to fifty five percent of interrogated victims will confess, and the question is are that many actually guilty? Now, I again, it's like sort of the prejudice of the idea

of if you're sitting in that chair, you most likely did it. And I'm not saying that's true or not, but that's the sort of mental prejudice that you have to kind of consider of whether or not you think are fifty percent of the people a coin toss of whether or not that person actually did it. I would like to think that closer to eighty percent of the people who did it are being questioned correctly, right, you know, Like I don't I don't want to think that eighty percent of them are innocent. I

don't believe that it's if it is true, that's yeah. But I also I also think it's got to do with um socio economics of where that's kind of happening. M you know, might be easier if everybody's just hanging out at the same place and there as a murder happened R and you just kind of grab one guy that's around that may look like the guy that did it.

Yeah. Well again, going back to one sixty eight, that was sort of the point that they were saying, was that even though there are people who are in like bad socioeconomic areas or people who aren't mentally you know, developed as others, those people are not the only people that this impacts, and it really does impact just your regular everyday person as well, and more than you think. I just I just I don't. I didn't mean know what affect him. I just mean the chances of it happened, just

happened to be more. Yeah, in that when it's in a poorer area, something else that we didn't get, something else that we didn't consider last time we talked about this case. Thank god we talked about it again. Glower bringing it makes it so much easier. Yeah, oh my god,

next week on one seventy, talk about this again. That's right. Something that is said in this episode though, is it's hard to see law enforcement as the bad guys, which I thought was something that I kind of agree with it and kind of didn't agree with you make your own reportation a reputation. Yes, right, So if if the police department in my town keeps doing bad things, they're seen as the bad doors. Yeah. But when you only have like a limited experience with somebody, you know, like you

what I mean, I'm sorry when you are when you are. Let's let's go back to getting pulled over. Oh yeah, which is one of my favorite pastors. I love it. I just rolled my window down a little bit. You can't pull me over. You're having a I'm gonna call it a flash interaction with a police officer. And it doesn't mean you flash your junk at them, put your pants back on. But what I'm saying is, when you briefly meet that officer, I think most people's instinct is that

that guy's a police officer. He's not a bad guy. Right now, maybe we live in an era an hour people believe I self strongly in the opposite. But to the point of this, this thing I'm bringing up from the episode, it takes It's not natural, at least for me, you know, white kid in suburbia to just automatically see a police officer and be like that person has bad intentions. I I agree with you. I still think most people that become police officers are good people. Have I had nothing

but great run ins with the police. No. I got pulled over one day while riding my bike in my neighborhood. Yes, down the wrong way of one way street. Heard all about it. Yeah. And then another time I was at the airport picking up my sister and a parking cop went off, I mean like you wouldn't believe really, And I'm just looking at him like, oh, okay, you don't want to be working today, and your shit cop, and that's why they can put you on parking right.

Yeah. Yeah, So I've had I've had that those situations. But do I see a cop car and go that guy inside of that car's a fucking duck. No, That's not what I do, you know, right, It's it's depends on the action. But I think I don't think my life's in danger when it comes to a bad cop. Where there are people

out there that they know their licensed danger because of a bad cop. Yeah, And what I think this part of the episode is saying is when it applies to false confessions, people like in a jury listening to this case, are not prone to think that a police officer was being bad and got a false confession, They're way more likely to be like, well, this was just a confession that this very skilled police officer got out of somebody. And

so that's what makes it kind of a complicated issue. Well, there are some people that listen to Sword and Scale that would flip out and think why they would never do that. Yeah, I'm on this jury listening and you're a police officer. You should be neutral. Mike points out, I shouldn't

say, he points out, do you think you should be neutral? I think there should be neutral, right, I mean I do think so for the most part, there's there's always until until Oh yeah, sure, just yes, the universal until Yeah. Right, Well that was kind of gonna say. It's like there's a context for everything. But I don't want officers walking in with a fucking itchy trigger finger, you know. But I do

think they should enter a dangerous situation on alert. I don't want them to be neutral and just be like, we're walking into this this drug lord's warehouse, like I would like some jo Yeah, like there's some realism right to it. I want them to be prepared. But I do also think that they should be able to entertain the idea of that these chairs suck. It's kind off the circulation of leg I'm like, what the fuck? Sorry, people, I am not neutral about these chairs we want. Don't say the

brand name. Uh, don't buy them. That's all I was I gonna say. Especially if you have if you have a radio show in your closet, you're not getting these chairs. But me, I don't. I just the episode before I just thought was a great episode about giving people information they didn't know. Was I thrilled about the title? I don't know. I don't care. It's a podcast about murder. All the titles have something that say, hey, I should listen to this. Don't talk to the police

makes people listen to it. So I don't get the uproar about it because there was no information in there. Like Mike wasn't saying don't doubt the police, no matter what they saying. He's saying, Hey, if somebody in your house dies and you're there, you're gonna be assumed to maybe have done something with it, so you might want to have somebody with you or not talk to them. Yeah, that is all he's saying, and he's not saying, Hey, you know what, if you're gonna rate people, don't

talk to the cops. They already know that. They already fucking know that. Yeah, but what about the victims. The victims, they shouldn't talk to anybody else because they already did. Mike said in this step so that he said, Oh, Mike, he spent a night in jail after getting pulled over A little disappointed to him. He said that he cut an old person off, and then they followed him for seven miles and then cut two. He's in prison. I don't know what happened. He said he got

a dui. That's what I thought. Did he say that? I don't even know if he even said that. I think he said. He just sort of implied. I say, yeah, but I didn't understand why he got a dui because he cut somebody off. I think it was road rage. I think he had road rage. I mean, I want to just theorize and speculate. I just see him not having a horn in his car. I just see him with a duck and squeezing the duck like a little rubber ducky Ham, have you ever spent a night in jail? No?

Me, neither I do not like we're such a good boys. We all have the good boys of this podcast. I bet you. I bet you Stephanie Wilder crazy or whatever name. Oh no, don't say that. I bet you she's been to jail. Um, have you ever been like just arrested. No. I came very very close to it one and getting pulled over. Why, I don't know how yeah? No, no, yeah I did. But I was thinking more in my head of if I could potentially get in trouble for this. I don't think I can. It's legal

in California. Now I had weed in my car. Oh yeah, you're totally fine. And un remember Charles Adams in Jamaica it was like that times ten. How funny was that? Was that? I don't do anything that you shouldn't do. I'm a legal person. I wanted Jamaica and they brought me a garbage bag full of part and I'm like, well, how long were you there for? No? Oh? Man? Uh So, anyway, I got pulled over and the officer was like, and it was literally

this fast he went, I pulled you over for speeding? What's that smell? No, it was like one sentence and I said, that's marijuana. And he said, uh, you know, where is it? And I said in my mouth at the time, I had one of those they're called it's called a one hitter, basically looks like a little metal cigarette and then there's like a little tiny they called baseball bats or something. I never heard that. Oh there you go, that's clever. Anyway. I was just

very honest with him. I was like, it's right here. If I could, I'll reach into my glove box or whatever, I'll show it to you. And he took it, took it from me, and he sailed me a step out of the car and I sat on the street with my life just flashing before my eyes. And he then said I get back in the car. And as I got back in the car, I heard him close my trunk and he said, you should really take care of that smell. Have a good night. Did he give you back the one hitter?

And then when I got home and I opened up the trunk of the car, he put the one hitter back in the car. So that was very nice of him. He did not have to do that. That's the kind of policing that should have should be out there. Yeah, it was. It takes us to the next thing when when he starts talking about drugs and stuff like that, Sure, let's talk about it. What do you do drugs? Well, I don't. I think that's the stupidest thing to say something to somebody. Yeah, dare, Yeah, don't do drugs. Yeah,

what are drugs? Right? Because that's usually when you find out don't do drugs. You don't even know drugs exist yet? Yeah, so you fucks don't get blow jobs? Holy shit, those are great? Yeah, and so are drugs. Um, I I'm kind of I think prohibition didn't work. Oh are you fucking kidding me? Not at all? Yeah, So why try it with something else? Yeah? Tried? You know, the definition of crazy doing the same thing over and over again. That's exactly

what's going on. So let's go through it. Which drugs should be legal? All of them? Well, there you go, folks, thanks for listening. Good night, Okay, all of them? Heroin? Yes, it's it's legal. Yeah, it's a pain pill already here in California, it basically is legal. Well, it's everywhere. It's like it's it's it's

in pain pills. Kids are getting addicted to it. It's sixteen years old and then ending up on heroin because we're working cranking them out and they've never felt anything like that in their life after wrecking their knee while playing sports, and they're the best athlete ever. And the benefit of legalizing it is to what just to normalize it, to stop people from being prosecuted for bullshit charges,

Like what's the ultimate goal here? Because I see it, You're not hiding it if it's legal, and you're going to notice it and you may give, say to a friend, you might do an intervention or something, instead of not knowing that your friend does heroin, yeah, and finding out that they oded, and you're like, what the fuck that's true now that

you're saying it, Because it is. Drug culture is very much like a don't ask, don't test kind of thing, and so you're right, it is just so shocking when suddenly you hear about an overdose or something like that, You're like, I didn't even know that person did drugs because everything is shamed and you have to keep it. I'm gonna be on drugs because of this fucking leg After this chair, you can move that, Mica, you can stand, I'm gonna stand, yeah, just do it standing. I'm

just gonna fall down because my leg's asleep. I'm sorry. No, Okay, back to drugs. Yeah, no, I think it. I really think that everything should be legal. I don't understand why people are making meth, Like, what is how did we get there that people are making meth in their in their garage? Yeah? Well, there's a historical documentary it's called Breaking Bad. It's a six season documentary and it's all about that incredible true story of a chemist who starts making meth to make money for his family

because he's dying of cancer. Right, it's really it's really entertaining, surprisingly, But you're right. I don't know. I was stupid. I was just I was totally thinking of that show and how fucking great it is. I was just like, oh man, they made a lot of drugs, um, but why? Why? Is just desperation? It's money? Like No, I'm not saying why do people make I'm like, how did we get there? Yeah? What drug? Like? What drug was there?

The people started recreating? Like that had to be There's no way, there's no way. Jesse, Bob Jesse just came up with that at a Walmart one day. So what's he reproducing? Yeah? You know, I mean, I just Jesse, I don't know, but my guess is something like cocaine seems to be pretty speed. Speed. Yeah, they're, they're, they're they've tried, they've tried to remake speed, and they've come up with meth, which is worse than stores, which is kind of fentan al too.

Right, Yeah, I think so which has the worst business model ever? Kill your clients. Yeah, I'm gonna take you down. You're gonna try this once. People are worried that legalizing it will corrupt everybody, like if cocaine. I mean, I'm not saying I believe this. I know I'm I'm angry about it. Yeah, now you're standing up. Oh god,

I'm not angry. But I think that's that is generally the argument too, Like why we don't legalize heroin because if we legalize it, then Bobby Jill Jesse can raise a microphone by twisting the goddamn thing that I'm like, I'm not gonna do that. Sorry, people apologize. I just think people are worried that if it's legal, Like, for example, marijuana is now

legal in California. Now there are way less cigarette smokers, but now there are a whole lot of teenagers smoking marijuana and parents aren't happy about that. They don't they don't seem to shut them down after when they're they're doing their little hits off their little machine that tastes like bubblegum. Like they're not concerned about that. It's bizarre the shit that we chase down. Yeah, Like,

you know, you smoke pot when you're a kid. Now you're freaking out about your kids smoking pot, But you're fine with them having this little thing in their room that you can't smell and it just creates a smoke and they're and they're getting high off and they're getting addicted to nicotine is way more addictive than most of these drugs. Yeah, yeah, I agree. What do you think about that whole thing? And I think it's a New Zealand

where they're going to just keep raising the non smoking age. Have you heard about this at all? No? That's interesting. Okay, So in New Zealand, they're trying to outlaw smoking and the way that they're going to do that is by saying if you are fifteen, you're not allowed to buy cigarettes, and basically each year the following year it will be if you're sixteen,

you can't. If you're seventeen, you can't, and the ideas that there'll be a whole generation of people who are never aged out of that restriction. I believe that it's the same as alcohol, is the same as drugs. You're gonna try it if you want to try it, Yeah, I think do I think it should be twenty one. Yeah, you shouldn't be able to buy tobacco until you're twenty one. It's I honestly think you shouldn't be able to twenty five until you're you know, I think you're still informative in

twenty one to twenty five. You're still doing things just because. Yeah, the best parties of your life, Ian are gonna be from the ages of eighteen to twenty three. But I can't tell you. But I don't think they need cigarettes like I don't. I don't see where cigarettes help any party. Sure, you know, yeah, I'm not a cigarette smoker, but I say no, it's got a good saying, but cigarettes. Uh. But I do believe. I do believe you. I don't think making anything

illegal stops it. And I'm also I'm gonna put I'm gonna put this at you Okay, everything's legal now, right. Those people that are bad, what do they do now, because they don't suddenly get upstanding jobs, right like? They do bad stuff because that's what they can do. Mm. Yeah, there's always going to be a new envelope rush. So but it's not a bad thing then, So then we shouldn't legalize things because now we're just making that envelope harder, you know what I mean, Like the more

we legalize, the crazier people have to get to break the law. I guess. So I'm just conducting a thought experience. I don't. I don't, I really don't. We're a podcast that talks about murder, so we cannot solve this, that's true. But I do should murder be legal? No? Okay, No, I don't know, just asking Godian, just asking no, hold on, let me think about it. I agree it you, I don't think. I think when he says, if you the things you do on drugs are still a crime, you can't blame drugs.

I also feel that's the same way when somebody does something and then they have mental health problems, you can't blame that for the bad things you've done to another person. Yeah, so you know, if you want to get high, as if you want to get wrecked, have fun to do it. But if you hurt somebody else, you're responsible. That's good. I think that's fair. Yeah, it's the same idea. Yeah, like you can't

you're not free from consequences. Said something like that before. Yeah, when it comes like freedom of speech, freedom of speech a speech, but not freedom from consequence. Yes, I get that. I can understand that on a certain level. And then I also, you know, I want to mention they bring up with the Kyle Rittenhouse thing, and I felt like those four people went to something with that they knew there was going to be actions and reactions, and they're guilty, all of them. They knew what was

going on there, and they I'm not saying I stay home. Yeah, don't take a gun to uh, And they are apparently more than just hated took a gun there. You know, don't take a gun to something because once you have something, there's going to be a reaction. Yeah. Yeah, the whole vigilante justice is UH. And that's interesting to talk about that in the context of this episode where we're talking about whether or not cops can do their job right correctly. But if everyone's going to go out and be

a fucking vigilante, you know, I don't know that. That's not that's not great, it's not it's he talks about, we just need to be able to well. I think people not having guns helps your job more. I think people get We know that, we know the statistics. Innocent people get killed a lot more than you know the people that they're getting saved. Sure, yeah, I mean it's such an insanely complicated issue. It's crazy, it's it's wild. I want to talk about one other Nope, part

of this episode that was brought up. Damn, that's all I'm gonna say about that. About forty minutes into the episode, Charles Adams says the following, you know I can trust on my show where you the young woman that was kidnapped and raped and murdered for while jogging in Arkansas last weekend. I mean, there is true evil out there. So naturally I thought, I gotta look that shit up. I want to know what story that is, because maybe we haven't done it on Sword and Scale. Maybe it would be

a good Sword and Scale episode. Such a producer at all times, let me tell you about that story. I'm gonna sit back down. You tell me a tale, all right. First of all, the killer who who did in fact kidnap and rape and murder this poor woman who was a jogger. This guy's name is Quake as an earthquake, quake Llewellen. He after Dougluellen from the real People's Court. I was thinking Llewellen from no country from from this guy, and this was part of the headline. I didn't look

this part up any further. An award winning farmer, That's what killer is. The killer is in fact an award winning farmer. He was He loves to put things in the ground. Proven incompetent to stand trial. He was competent at the time of his alleged crimes. He's charged with capital murder, rape, kidnapping, and abuse of a corpse. Oh no, he did

it while she was dead. That's that's what that means. This woman was last confirmed cited from a ups driver while she was jogging, and Llewellen, who had known her prior to the crime and had even joined a Facebook group dedicated to finding the missing woman. He became a suspect because he went to the police station to talk to the investigators about seeing her the afternoon that she vanished, and what he said was that he was driving around checking his wells.

I guess he owns wells Jacob ol Wales. He spotted her walking along a gravel road. He said he drove past her, then turned his truck around, and then when he turned the truck around, he didn't see her anymore. Quote, I guess because the gravel road was still dusty. Then he says that he thinks she may have crossed the road, at which point he struck her with this truck. Oh shit, Now, I don't know if that's true. That reminds me a lot of somebody not that we know

from the show. Yeah, yeah, we've covered on this show before. Ian's best friend, my god, my buddy used to turn around and hit people with this car. So this guy eventually confessed the crime. He admitted that he later buried her in a rice field, and then he went back to order what rice field? And they don't sounded like that doesn't sound like

award winning. He went back to work, can grow Rice, went home, had supper to bed, and his dad noticed he was acting strange, and that's why he told him to go to the police to talk about it. He said everything was just a blur. Um. He didn't He just knows that he didn't kill her on purpose. He fucked her on purpose, but not kill her on purpose. At the time of his arrest, he and his wife were raising her children full time, but his wife has since

filed for a divorce no doubt. In October of twenty twenty, he pled not guilty to charges of kidnapping, capital murder, abuse of corpse, but in October of twenty twenty one pled guilty yes. Prior to that plea, The prosecutors say that had he been convicted of capital murder, they would have sought the death penalty. Now it's just life in prison without parole. I wonder why they didn't go for um like the death penalty even though he admitted it. Yeah, it's got a plea deal. Oh, he pleaded.

I think I'd say guilty. So anyway, I just thought that was kind of a guild story. I had not heard anything about that one. He just kind of like skipped over too. It was just like, well, you know, there's a girl in arcs and a girl by that guy, which completely murderer. Anyways, let's get back to me getting high in Jamaica. Yeah exactly, but I thought that Rewan listeners might want to know the story that he was alluding to. That might be a good story for you

guys. Yeah, it could be home to talk about too. I will say, at least for the episodes that I've worked on, if there's no trial, it's way harder to find like really good audio. I personally, you can maybe tell episodes I've worked on, not that I've worked on that many, but the ones that I have, I got lots of juicy core audio because that's when the people are really given their first person testimony of like

what happened, and that's where you get the really juicy stuff. So it's got to be for us to do these episodes that it has to be an ending. No, not necessarily. I mean there's been there's one. There's in Canada. There's Highway sixteen, the Highway of Tears. It's just all these girls that go missing on it, like still to this day, to this day, you guys should check that out. Yeah, that's yeah, I'll be sure to drive kind of No, no, don't drive there,

go up, get yourself a girl. We have to laugh at this people. If you don't laugh at at Jesus, it just becomes said, well, let's try to wrap it up here. How do we how do we how do we fix it? In? How do we fix it? I world of talking or not talking to cops? I think there's there's rules, you know. I hate to say it, there's rules on both sides, and you got to know your rights, and um, they should people should know. And I think what he was saying was don't talk to cops unless

you know what you're what you're doing. Yeah, he wasn't saying don't talk to cops even when if they ask you, hey, do you know where the nearest burger king is? You know who was just saying? So I think be smart, don't murder somebody. Yeah. I think even more than that, though, we need to all stop being so actionary. You know this is this episode has become a larger metaphor for our country way and not

being able to have meaningful conversations and talking about things. Everybody is just so set in their own mind as to what's right and what's wrong, and everyone has been convinced that the other side is morally evil and wrong and has that got anything to do with instant gratification that way, that way as a society

that we like we everything we get answered media. I mean, especially with social media being as immediate as it is, everybody wants to like be the first one to comment on a story or to like share their perspective or you know, speak their truth. I put that in air quotes, but their truth th r But I don't know. I think I have been trying to have neutral conversations with people. It's very difficult. You know, just listen, right, that's a good thing. Just listen. If you listen,

to listen more and you can storm out right after they're done. Sure, but you know, you listen, you will find something about somebody if you listen. Um, I had. I was doing a show in Chicago and there was a guy guy in the crowd and I said, what do you do? And he said, I work in politics. I said, who do you work for? You wouldn't tell me. And at the end of the show he came up and he said, I was Margie Taylor Greens.

I ran her her campaign. I said, well, you're a bad man, I said, but you know, I said, you seem like a nice guy. It is, you know, I know a jo'urn you were in the business, you know whatever. Yeah, you know, it's just it's weird. You're not that person. So I think you listen to people and there's we all have different sides, and uh, they're they're bad things happen to people, and you know, it's just it's just those words that

he talks about in it, like those trigger words that people use. Don't let them trigger you, you know, and and make them make them if somebody says something that's crazy, make them explain it. Sure, yeah, don't need free to ask a follow up question like I want to know why you think JFK Junior is coming back to this grassy knoll? Why would you land the plane here? Not in Martha's vineyard? This makes no sense at all. Sure, so, well, that's a good not to go out

on Ian Where can people find you? I don't get my shit? Bind me on ianbag dot com, sir ian Bag on Twitter, Ian Bag on Instagram, and now comedian ian Bag on TikTok. I'm doing the TikTok. If you want to get on the TikTok nice. I do some stupid things on there. I do a little dancing. No, I don't know any dance. You should. I respond to people's videos like the last one I did was this guy made this concoction and his cup holder in his car that

turned into foam that cleans everything up, and I just look blow. Well, I'm on Twitter and Matt Fondeler. You can spell that however you like, but hopefully spell it right. That's all you reach me. I'm on another podcast. What's it about? Well, it's about everything. Really, I love that a little bit of everything. It's called the Water Quick. It's fantastic. Thank you. We're gonna have you back on soon. Oh so again on people, I tell them that's good. We would love to

hear from you. Guys. Please give us a nice review, share the show with your friends. If we like it, send us a tweet. But you know, above all, listen to these words. Don't be a douche bag sort of scale. We would is a production of income grew any media. If you enjoyed the show, leave us a five star rating and a glowing review. No criticism please, it hurts our feelings. Be sure to tell your friends about us, but not your family or co workers,

because I'll think you're weird. Okay, that's it. Let's tell next time. Don't be a douchebag.