Welcome to Sword and Scale Rewind with your hosts Matt Fondelier and Ian bag And we're back with another episode of Sword and Scale Rewind. This is episode one hundred and sixty eight. My name is Matt Fondelier, one of the writers and producers for the Sword and Scale Universe, but above all else, just a huge fan of the show. That's why I'm here to talk to you guys about my love of Sword and Scale. But I'm not doing it a love own. That's right. I'm not reacting to my own sentences. There's
someone else in the room with me. Hello, Match, it's nice to see you. Thanks for having me to your podcast. Real great to have you back here in the booth after so many games out. It's ten past seven. That's right, the two of us are breaking down every episode of the craziest true crimes show ever produced. I don't know how it happened. I was just I was just walking around normal one day and then you called me up, and now everything's scary. Everything is scary now, that's right,
that is very true. I'm sorry you brought so much fear into your life. You didn't pitch it like that, would you like to come in and I'll not be able to open your door with out crying. I got a deal for you. Come into the studio once a week and you'll never sleep again. What do you think are having a hard time getting to sleep, Well, let's make it even tougher. Yeah, now, but you
will look at your ring doorbell constantly, that's what I find. Yeah, well, we try to Uh, I'm not gonna say we try to make people feel better about the murders, but we try to react to it and just be real about it. You know what, I don't know. I think what a lot of times with these shows, these episodes, I think, yeah, yeah, I am right about what I think. And yeah, it are the people. They are the people that you do think it is. The worst monsters are real. The worst monsters are real. But
the worst monsters aren't really hidden behind a veil of innocence. Yeah, most of them are out there. But on this one things get a little bit twisted. The angel turns into the devil. Yeah, yeah, I didn't like this one at all. Well, you're not alone. A lot of fans didn't like this one. Age. It's it's when he says there's two different types of cops. Right off, the topic goes there's the police officer of the sea HP that we've all dealt with, and then there's the detective.
Yeah, it's true. I wonder if detectives should be something completely different than in the police m Like, if it should be a completely separate unit. I see, like not yeah, well yeah, okay, you know it's not no longer Long Beach police, right it's Long Beach or I don't know, it's yeah, it's something different that way, because they after you hear it, you kind of go, well, maybe the police need to be police, but not by police, yeah, because right now they're police
by themselves. Basically. I see what you're saying, because it does seem like the trajectory of becoming a detective means that you start out with the like basic training of a police officer. You might be like a you know, have a beat where you just kind of work the streets for a little bit and you have to kind of prove yourself, and then as you make your way up the ranks, then you can be trans for to become like a
detective or something like that. And I think what you're saying is maybe the path to becoming a detective should be something totally separate from becoming a police officer. Yeah, yeah, I could kind of see that the detective being a detective, especially after listening to like an episode like this, Being a detective
is like being a poker player. I hadn't really thought about before, But you are encouraged to bluff and to use to lie certain types of mental strategy to like overcome the opponent that you're playing against, as opposed to like a police officer, whose job should be more like to like hold somebody's hand through a scary s Yeah, yeah, I can see that. But you know, they guess, I guess the whole thing is all comes down to being
trained in the law. I guess maybe you could be on the path to becoming a lawyer and then maybe become a detective because you're learning about the ins and outs of the laws and what are like case precedents. Well, I don't know, it's interesting, you know, the college courses to become a
policeman, maybe they're different to be a detective. You know, maybe, But I also think it's something we might have to change the laws a little bit, like you shouldn't, you know, it's it's it's sad that in this this case, you go, well, why were they so why were they so determined to get this kid? Yeah? Like that's what didn't make sense to me. That's where the rub was to me. And then I'm
like, well, what if it's somebody that's annoyed with me? So at some point you know what I mean, and they just keep harping on it until because I'm just like, well, why aren't you looking at other places?
Yeah? Well, what was really maddening. And of course we're going to get into all the different details of this episode, but there was another kid who seemed like a way more suspicious suspect or whatever, and they're like, now, we're not going to talk to him because he's a ward of the state and that means he has a lawyer, and so therefore we are not even going to try. Like that was pretty despicable to me. I couldn't tell if they're just being douches or they were lazy, or they're just
incompetent. I imagine it's the incompetency. I what struck me just now when you said it is like again going back to police officer versus detective police officers have like, let's say, a quota of speeding tickets that they have to give out and so people, which is weird. It's really weird. But if you live in Los Angeles, you kind of know the end of the month, you've got to be extra careful because all those officers are all trying to make their quotas. And so just now, when you were like,
why would they like why are they just trying to break this kid? In my mind, I was like, and I can't possibly be true, but I'm like, maybe they have quotas, like they have to arrest a certain amount of people. Like it seems ridiculous, but you know, it just didn't. It's before the guy, you know, the guy that got killed. It was weird that they really really wanted a suspect for that. I'm like, really, the guy that just got a prison, you really absolutely
need a suspect for him. Yeah, like he's got okay, the one who's like attempted suicide before, and yeah I did in the area where he's tried to commit suicide before. Maybe that's what happened. It's just it. I don't know. I was but but then it's a smaller town, so you go, which was something that really wasn't pushed. How how how bad were these police? Like were they you know? Or were they? Were they andy? And and you know don nuts were they where they you know?
Or or were they were they corrupt? Or were they just they because afterwards you must think they would had to go back and look at a ton of cases. Is that these guys had done right? Yeah? I would think so, and just like re examine all that that's just such a huge headache like which but also come come back to the quota thing. Well, if you're if you're fudging your work, what's the point of reaching the quota? So yeah, and I think a lot. I'm yeah, you're absolutely
right. If you're just going to fudge the number anyway, what's the difference. But we just lets like the world that we live in. It's like we live in this like corporate thing where every month has to be better than the previous month. And I've always thought for years like that system. Yeah, like a certain point it's like, Okay, we have to sell two more units in last month, but we're selling millions more than we were six months ago, Like what are we talking about? Yeah, it's exhausting.
It just never ends. You should you should uh uh not not not be happy, you can not be not satisfied, but and and want more without being greedy, you know. And I feel like the greed sometimes is just and this is completely different. We're going on f on a different thing like that. I don't think there should be a quota to the police department. No, And I think even the stop sign thing and and those those guys having a quota is bullshit. It's totally it's it's just like that's no.
No. I don't know if it's like this in other places, but in Southern California, when I've done nothing wrong, I my blood will chill if I see an officer in the rearview mirror, because you just don't know if they're gonna pull you over for some well I would hope that would get me out of it somehow. But but I am talking like that. It was a good yeah, But I mean, you'll just I'll be going the speed limit and then I'll see a cop and I'll just go, oh god,
oh no, was I was? I not going to speed limit, Like they haven't even put the lights on yet. But it's just so common out here to get pulled over for any number of things, and yeah, it's just all that's all the quotas and stuff. I'm just like, don't you have crime to take care of? I remember one day I was riding my bike in Belmont Shore where we live, and I was going up the wrong way of one way one a way street on a bike on a bike, and the cop pulled me over. Was he on a bike? No?
Great, but he pulled me over and he's like, what are you doing? Ride my bike? Going to the gym? He goes, you're going the wrong way, and I go, yeah, I'm a bad man. Wow, that's good, and I was. I knew I was annoyed because two blocks away there's a jack in a box where they sell heroin. Yeah exactly, and you're bugging me riding the wrong way, like that's those are the things that get me going. I was like, Okay, I know they're selling heroin. They call that. You know they're selling heroin, And
why are you bugging me for riding my bike there? You know? Yeah, I prefer I prefer being able to see the traffic come at me when I'm riding my bike. Yeah exactly. So also we're talking about like a wide street, a wide city street. Here, we're talking about like a neighborhood street too. I'm not ridiculous by the way that that jack in the box where they sell the cocaine or the hero when do they call it crack in the box. That's a good name, the crack in the back,
I should say. Also, it's the sleepiest little it's the sleepiest little jacking about it. Yeah. By the way, uh Fenton al the worst business model ever, right, yeah, kill kill anyone who drives it. Yea, it doesn't make sense you want to sell it more than once. That's why they cut it with baby powder before, because people would you get more out of it? Yeah, anyway, just started bringing up business model.
No, that's good, that's good. I did want to say for our one fan out there who explained to me that he never listens to the Sword and Scale. He just listens to art show and he might be wondering, why don't people like this episode of Sword and Scale. And I want to explain to that one listener, you should play in the beginning. I could, I should go editing that whole opening clip. Don't try to cops,
that's right. This is the Don't Talk to Cops episode, and the narrator of our beloved show, Mike Budet, explains that you should never talk to cops. If you were guilty of a crime, don't talk to cops. If you're innocent of a crime, don't talk to cops. Make sure you have a lawyer, because a cop, especially a detective, they're not interested
in your best interests. They're interested in cracking their case. And so this is a story of somebody who talked to cops and they were innocent, And this entire episode is you want to punch the wall because these detectives are just really taking advantage of this kid who's wailing and crying and clearly had nothing to do with this crime. And it never stops. But what was making people
so upset was Mike saying don't talk to cops. And people, I think this episode was first released, it was during the sort of like Black Lives
Matter, lots of riots and this idea of defunding the police. All these social issues were kind of happening while this episode came out, and so I think people took great umbrage with the fact that you're saying, don't talk to police officers, like, we're trying to restore some balance between policing and our community, and if you're telling people not to talk to those police officers, you're just causing further pain to those communities. It's funny how he stirs up
both of the left and the right. Yeah, he just like, hey, what's that little tiggle to the bus? No, No, we're a little tiggle to the bus. Well. I mean I would argue that I kind of will get upset when they hear the truth. They do, but he also doesn't sugarcoat the truth. Yeah, and sometimes he uses a way that that is good for the show, right, but it's not. You know, I kind of I kind of think from when I heard him say it, I was like, oh, I should know my rights. Yeah
exactly. I think that was sort of the root of what he's talking he was talking about. Yeah, but the way he says it, he says, don't tie to the cops is dead and people are like, well, you gotta talk to the instead of him saying, hey, take a Civics class. You a fucking doorbell? Yeah, yeah, which is which I I didn't. I didn't know because I'm not from here. I didn't take a civics class, so I didn't know. I am from here and I did not take a civics class. It's not taught. That's the whole idea.
Or a civic class gone unless you are like specializing in it, or you happen to go to like a really nice high school or something. But yeah, they don't. I took, like everybody should take a civic class. Took like government classes in high school, kind of learned about the history of the government and how that's histories. Yeah, but I never learned the ins and outs of your rights as a citizen like they just. And I went to a pretty good high school too, but they did not teach anything
like that. Maybe just touch unsl golf bows on a good damn golf course. Callback callback go a different episode. Okay, would you have known that before this episode? No, And in fact, I have a deep internal struggle with it. Still I understand logically what Mike is trying to say. Yes, having said that, if I came home to find a murdered loved one that I know I had nothing to do with, I would feel really weird, saying I gotta call my lawyer. We've talked about this another episode
we've talked about just a few weeks ago. You would say it different. You would say I've got to call a lawyer. Yeah, you would not say my lawyer. That's true. My lawyer is on speed dial because I deal with as all the time. Like, that's that's different. Let me
call my dad. Yeah yeah, But I like, and this is all part of the opening of this episode, the idea of like pleaing the fifth that is meant to protect the innocent, but in this world that we live in, the only people who plead the fifth are like, guilty, shit better, you don't want to say it. And so along those same lines again, I understand intellectually that I should not be sitting to an interrogator and like telling them my story without having somebody next to me who knows it better.
But it again, it feels weird to me. I would be like, why do I need a lawyer for I can totally tell you that I was doing a podcast with Ian Bag why I bring you know, I'm totally with you. But after this, yeah, I'm like, Okay, I guess I have to. Yeah, you just it's support used to should but it just makes you seem guilty. That's what's so weird about It makes you seem guilty even though what you're saying is no, listen, I'm only innocent.
I don't want anything to be confused about it, and thus I'm getting an attorney. But it just totally sounds like you're guilty. It's a weird system that way. So this episode reminded me of a neighbor we used to have who we learned we knew, we knew his wife had died. We learned that he spent a year in jail while they thought he had done it. So when I heard this, I kind of because I'm to come on our podcast. Yeah, well I think he did it, but it's one
of those things to come. This might have to we might we might have to. But I don't know where he is anymore, because I'm pretty sure he was bolted Jane, where he's going he ran. But but when I heard this, I was like, I wonder if that's how he got like how he got trapped. Yeah, yeah, whether he he screwed up and said something and that little bit more than he should have, and just that little nugget was like, well, you might have done something, even though
he didn't. Yeah, it's this episode really messes me up. It was I was not happy about this episode. I was not happy. This is not happy. Go lucky when when I feel like this could affect me, even though the other ones could affect me, but the other ones seem really distant. But with that that had happened to the neighbor and just to hear something that I didn't have the knowledge to do, Yeah, if that had happened to me. So do you think now? If I mean again,
play play play? Should this never happen to you? But if something like the scenario, would you do this thing? Now? Where you just go? I'm not going to talk to you until I have an attorney present. I think I should have a lawyer with Yeah, yeah, if you need, if you need to. If I'm not coming in as a witness, I'm coming in as as a person of interest, I'm going to need somebody with Yeah. Even though I know I didn't do it. I I've heard
Mike Budet Yeah, and I need to. Yeah. You know what's funny too, is I'm just realizing one of the episodes that I worked on that is on plus for that one, um, there was actually hold on now i'm thinking about it, the episode might have been one of the main ones that might have been un negative. Yeah, it's like one of the it's
it's way down the line. But this was a story about a girl who murdered her mom and stepdad, and when she got into the interrogation room, she was very like pop culturally minded, and so they sat her down and she was like, Um, I've just seen it in a lot of TV shows that that I should have a lawyer president. So I just think I
just think you'd be best if I had a lawyer president. And they you can just hear them going, sure, okay, fine, fine, fine, But then they continued to question her for ten hours, but she was just like talking about like her interests. But you can just hear them trying still trying to talk to her. They're not really like directly questioning her, but maybe you get a little nugget nugget of info because anything you say in that chair is going to come back. How do they get away with that?
Though, even though she's lawyered up, because they're like they weren't asking her necessarily about the case. They would kind of ask her about like they like, for example, they gave her a pad of paper because she liked to draw. And so this girl starts like drawing her like anime characters, and they would say like, oh, tell us about that. What is
that you're drawing? And then she starts describing the anime and you're like, oh, she's talking about her relationship with her mom, Like you could just hear that that's what she's saying. She doesn't know it because it's just she's
just drawing, but they're doing little things like that. Anyway, I popped into my mind because I'm realizing, even if you say I would like an attorney present, You're not just going to be sitting there quietly, I don't think unless you are really just clammed up and just like nope, say a word, Like everyone still talk to you. Have you ever you've watched the
first forty eight before? Yeah, yeah, makes sense now that when you see some of those those uh people that have been charged with murder and stuff, and when they call, they'll just lie down on the floor. Yeah. Now, yeah, now you know why, because I just not gonna I'm not answering any I'm not gonna I'm not gonna entertain even a fraction of a second. Right, Yeah, you mentioned earlier that civics classes and the fact that they're not taught in school. Here's my thought. You tell me
what you think. Okay, this is my idea. We're not doing a civics class. We're doing a covert operation for all graduating seniors individually. Each member of the graduating class will be fake arrested. Right, you'll just be at the mall with your friends. I'd excuse me, mister bag. You need to come with us, and you will then get a first hand training experience for what it's like to be arrested, what's like to be accused of
a crime you didn't commit. Okay, go through an interrogation, and then at the end, it's like that movie The Game with Michael Dutt and say that it was all a big joke. But now you've learned. What do you think I was gonna say? I was gonna say this sounds like the Game, That's what I was gonna say. And we know that went wrong. Well, so so hey, everybody chairs at the end, except for
those three people that died. Yeah, all right, I do think think I do think those kind of those those uh what do they called first person games are good for learning. Yeah, yeah, I think so. Maybe it's maybe it's a video game instead of resting them. Yeah, well they have that game too. It's called Grand Theft Auto. Actually, no, hold on. This is reminding me of another thing. There is a video
game I played at once. It's called La Noir. It's kind of like a Grand Theft Auto game, but takes place in the nineteen forties, and you are a police detective and part of the game is interrogations, and you actually interrogate the characters and then when they'll like say, aligned you, you have to like push a or b whether or not you believe what they're saying, and if you want to like grill them a little bit harder. I
was terrible at this game because, probably because the graphics were terrible. It's hard to read human emotions. But they get into it in this in this episode as well, with the traditional signs of when somebody's lying and how that doesn't really fucking mean anything, it's bullshit. I feel like I learned a lot listening to this episode. It's funny. My wife was this is another one what we listened in the car together and when it came up about the
lying things. She's like, bullshit, when you lie, you look out the left, and I'm like one of my lynes. She goes, I know when you're lying immediately, So I'm just like, well, she's calling bullshit on this guy. I don't know. I don't know how, but I don't think. I don't know. I guess they say you look up when you're thinking or something like that. That's why they can tell you're lying. This guy sounds like he's in This professor seems to know what he's talking
about, and he's calling bullshit on it. Yes, so well, the really the case and it's been thirty minutes of the show we still haven't even mentioned like the actual story of it. It's because fucking Mike's send chills up everybody's spine as soon as you heard it. They're gonna arrest you for something you didn't do. Get ready, welcome to the Gulagi sons of bitches, No chance of parol. You're done. But this guy, William Hurt,
not the actor. I was disappointed. That was disappointing to hear. He is an eighteen year old who is living with his mom, his two sisters, and then like a foster brother who's incredibly suspicious but paying no attention because apparently it's a big red herring that has nothing to do with the story, and the mom has a like a foster brother who is the man who would
become the victim in this story. Now, he was apparently at the family home playing chess with this kid, William, and then he left, William went to bed, and then the guy who left was never seen again. Well, I should take that back. He's never seen alive alive. They found him exactly where in the river where he had tried to kill himself a couple of times. Yeah, which, and then his injuries were like a
broken neckbone and a fractured rib. So the neckbone was in a weird place like where your tongue meets the back of your throat, So it's kind of a I'm guessing it was quite the fall. That would be, yeah, exactly to me. That should all just be indicative of somebody took a nasty fall and they like broke their neck, like that's what I'm assuming in a rib when they fell. Not he was beaten to death by a group of kids. They thought. They kept saying that they everybody beat him to death.
But he didn't have he only had the two injuries. Yeah, so what is the kind of bulk of this episode is the interrogation of this kid, William, who for two hours is telling the police officers the truth. He's telling them exactly what happened and that he went to bed and they are just not buying it. And they're not It's not that they're not buying it, they're just even though they know they know things are wrong that he's telling
them, they're just they're just they don't care. They're dog on bone like they're just they're ripping it apart. They don't give a shit. Yeah, because they're suddenly suddenly they're the perpetrators. Well, I want to play a number of clips because that's what I like to do on this ship. He likes plain clips. This first one, the board clip leaving his first one is I think it happens pretty early on in the episode, but it just gives you, I think, a pretty good glimpse into the minds of these
detectives where they're just already on like a denial roll. Like it doesn't weird. Like I said before, I just don't get why they why they just think they're being lied to. Yeah, there's just like, Oh, that kid that works at the ice cream shops definitely guilty of murder. Yeah, he wouldn't get me bubbledum him that one day, he's gonna fucking suffer. Now, granted, the corpse had his eyeball scooped out with an ice cream
scooper. Okay, maybe we're onto something here. We found on the side of there were two cones filled with ice with eyeballs, Yeah, one with sugar. One was skinking. All right, So here's this clip of these cops already down this kid's throughout. This kid's trying to is trying to tell them about something that happened a while ago. I guess it's been a month or so that's passed, and the cops are nitpicking everything that this kid's saying.
So in this clip, he like forgot to mention that his mom gave them coffee or something before she went to bed. That's sort of the foundation of this number One. Would your mom never witnesses she told me about it? You sure she wasn't there when the container coffee came out? Well, she gave her collee toomeber. Okay, remember I told you I wanted specific details. Okay, that's something you left out. I want you leave anything else out. Yeah, I'm going to tell you how it happened, and
then you're going to agree. Yeah. That's what this entire conversation becomes, is just like no, you're gonna smile and nod of what we say. And you. I mean, for me, I put myself in the mind of William and he's he's trying so hard to like help the police with what they're trying to do, and just not seeing that they're really closing in on him, right, you know so which But the thing that bothers me again is is why why they want to why they want to do this? Like
what if they're not good, they're not good at their job. If you're putting the wrong person in jail, you're not good your job, yeah, or you're putting the wrong person in jail on purpose. Like there's there's only two two things Like that's you're either bad or you're working bad. Now, like, well, I think this particular talking man, I shouldn't be a
detective. I confuse them into the ground with my worth. You madre you man, you man, you're mad man, man man Uh, these guys are doing something that is a particular kind of I don't want to call it evil, but a certain kind of wrongdoing, which is that they think that they are doing the right thing, but they're not. They're not, but they are justified in the things that they're doing, so they don't stop.
And what is a fault for that? At least? What's the theory in this episode is this idea of the read technique, which is this they call it the Bible of interrogation, and it's broken down into all these phases and steps and so the argument of this episode is that the re technique is at fault because it's giving these interrogators the confidence to think that they are doing something
correct, but it's not. You know, they are there. It's designed to make you anxious to deny things as opposed to making it easier for you to just water boardom. That seems like the next logical step the way that these guys are in. If you're just if you just want him to say what you want him to say, Yeah, you're you're that's not gonna they're not getting the truth. Well here's the thought too. We a couple of weeks ago and actually many weeks on the show, we deal with these killers
who are so arrogant. And this is a strange episode because it's the police
officers that I think are being really arrogant. They're the ones who are just assuming that they know what's best, they know how to spot a liar, and in their their mind, I think theo in the episode is like, we don't interrogate innocent people, so the fact that you're sitting in this chair means that you have something to hide, and the mentality of that is what's kind of screwing all this up. And that's why I don't think that they're
necessarily being bad or lazy. They're doing what they think is what an interrogator does. But there's something about them wanting just one person when they don't have any physical evidence. They don't have any you know, they're just that was the last place he was, the victim was was at this kid's house. Yeah, like that's all as they have. Yeah, no physical evidence or anything like that. So they're just I don't understand why they're taking such a
hard run at him. Like that's why I think I'm trying to figure out whether they're just clueless or absolutely evil. Yeah, I mean, and again we keep bringing up this idea of quotas, which again we don't know if it's actually a thing quote or not. But yeah, I mean again, I just that's kind of what instinctually it feels like to me, like they're just like, man, we gotta get the we gotta close the books on
this case. Like we're we have so many open investigations right now, and you know, we need to get this number down so that we don't look like a loser police department that's not doing their job right. And so they got a couple of people who are like tangentially related because one of the other things that's crazy about this episode is that they're doing this to the sister too, which is not revealed until three chords the way through the episode, and
you're like, what the fuck. Yeah, like, wait, they're not just doing this to one they're doing this to two different kids, and who knows what she's saying about, you know, what they're getting her to say about her brother and oh, well she said this, so let's go back to him. You know, they just have a hole. You think they would have pulled out when it came back when they said and then you guys all went and spent his money, right, and he ended up having only
thirty eight in the bank. So the worst than that, it was eight cents. So that right there, doesn't you know, like that's you've run into a wall there, And and I don't understand why that wall doesn't make them stop. It makes them push even harder, makes them push even harder. That's the wild part. I had another thought too, along these same
lines, Well, these guys fired these cops. Well, I do have a little bit of an update here, Okay, at the end, we'll find out I can do at the end, although I don't know specifically if they were fired, but I'm gonna just say that they're probably not working anymore based on what I've read, So they yeah, they yeah, we'll talk about it when we got to it. What I was gonna say is they
are acting like they're interrogating some like super villain. And one of the things about the story that I found kind of interesting is the notion of chess, and that this kid played chess with the guy before he disappeared. The kid obviously likes to play chess. I would think that if I was interrogating a criminal mastermind who was also a fan of chess, that it would be a much more difficult interrogation, Yeah, that he would always be one step ahead.
But instead, that to me is like a big clue that this kid's telling the truth about things, because the fact that he's a chess player tells me that he has some concept of logical thinking of of you know, action and reaction. But the way that he's talking should like explain to you that this kid is not an evil genius. He's not an evil genius. And he says many times, I don't get what you want me to say. You're trying to get me to say something, but I don't understand what you
want me to say. I'll say what you want me to say if you just tell me what you want me to say. Yeah, And they're like, now you got to say what you want to say. It's so frustra it's so frustrating for the kids. Like and we've had this, we've had this talk before where the murderer has been eighteen years old. Yeah, and we've talked about you know, at some point you got to take responsibility. But when you hear that this other kid talk, this kid talk, who
turns out to be the victim. He's so innocent. Yeah, he's just they're just you know, they're almost taken down for his gump. You know, it's just it's just annoying. Let's play another clip here, that speaking number two? Oh boy, is that number two? I've been jumping all over the place here, Um, just kind of speaking to what you're saying. Probably the detectives ask him like, well, I just guess I'll just have to play the clip. Let me just play the clip. He's playing
the clip. Everyone's got the round. Clips are being played. You understand we know more than what? Yeah, do you think I already know? I was feeling you guys already know. Detectives, what do you think? Well, I think you know what happened to Mark, and I think you know you don't know what necessarily what happened, not like all what happened. I know he goes some the exact time of days he was there, and some of the stuff that he has done wasn't that last week. That's about
all I know. So what I was trying to get to with that clip is it's like, if you were to read the words of what he's saying, it would sound like he's taunting the police, right, because they'll say, like, what do you think we know? Like, I think you know quite a lot about this murder, because you guys are detectives, and I'm sure you've got it all figured out by now, Like that's what the words look like on a paper. But when you hear him saying it,
he's not taunting them. He's like politely answering them honestly, like what do you think we know? Well, I mean, I'm you guys are detectives, so I'm sure you guys know. You must know, you must know instead of your detectives, you must know. Like it. There's a different prints when you hear it versus when you read it, which is why I don't trust Twitter. Yeah, don't talk to Twitter. Yeah that should be the other. When you say things on Twitter, people don't always hear what
you said. Yeah, that's why I say, if you read my Twitter, read it in my voice. Yeah, that'll go a lot farther. Yeah. Another clip here, This one Uber three makes my blood boil. Bloiling blood clip went to bed? What's the next noise you here? Okay, nothing at all? Nothing? Do you have any kind of disabilities. I did have quote, but mental disabilities, not mental Now you make these grace I engraduate Junior, who goes with it. I won't tell you what
you got. The inconsistencies with some of the stories you tell. I think it was just that particular line of questioning where they went like, you went to bed, you didn't hear anything. Do you have mental problems? Like I just seem so rude to me almost, I don't know it was, it was, yeah, do you have mental problems? Do you have any disabilities? I got a club foot, any mental problems like that wasn't good enough? Yeah, well, speaking of the clubs, sure, I don't
have club sandwich foot. Oh delicious. The thing about the club foot is by the end of this, he's like talking about sleep walking or something. Do you remember this part in the episode goes, I got, well, maybe maybe I have slept walk before, so maybe I did this in my sleep I don't. I don't remember doing it. Yeah. Then it's like, but I couldn't chase him. I had I have a club foot.
Yeah, I told you guys earlier. Yeah, but that at that point the cops must just be so desperate that to get him to say, like he said so many times, I never saw him after I went to sleep, and they're like, we saw you that you saw him after you would
probab sleep. How about the fact that they said, we have photos of you all in the car or right, So, so when you have to do that and there's there's no photos of it, it's you know, they're saying, well, there's just you know, they're kind of bending the truth. No, they're fucking they're fucking with him now. He's just like, you do why do you have that right? Well, I have sleptwalk before, but I don't think I went out with my family and drove around.
Yeah, and murdered someone. I know. It's it's so strange that they use lies to get information. But again, part of what makes it such a complicated issue is that if that person really did do something horrible and they don't want to talk about it, I'm like, okay with the cops figuring out a sneaky way get that person to him too. But when when you're making up a lie, like we have photos of you driving around and there's no photos of him drive having around, it's it's that's more than being okay,
well we know that you're in the car. We have your fingerprints in the car, right, Well, maybe you do have my finger prints in the car. I've been in there before, you know what I mean. That's that's okay. Well they also tried to do that with him too. They were asking him like, am I going to find DNA evidence of you? And he says something like like on his hand or on his back? Because I patted him on the back, I gave him a hug or something.
I know everybody I know a hurt that might but why is it on his bad Why did he giz on his bad Yeah, I'm not not going a DNA I got a DNA test. Now. We mentioned earlier the foster kid who's also living in this house, Harley Wade, who had a tendency toward violence, and when he first moved in, he almost choked the mom to death. I felt like that would have been a big red flag to return return that foster kid, like what do you do? Maybe we don't
need the five hundred a month. Yeah, But as mentioned earlier, the fact that that guy was never interrogated just because because he would have to have an attorney with him. This is another like damning statement for these officers that are very they're very lazy police officers, and they're not good police officers. And I'm if I'm coming across anti police, I am not. I'm not anti police. But the police aren't one hundred percent perfect either. They're just
the same as everything else. There's bad in everything. And when sometimes they go up, you know, bad ends up upstream and dilutes the rest of the stream, you know, and it makes it, it makes it murky. So you have to you have to realize that sometimes it's bad and it's not. They're not there for to protect. There there for their own mission, own reasons missions. They're on their own mission, Yeah, from Tom
Cruise, to make everybody's scientologists. That's right. I thought it was interesting too when the when the kid said that he saw some news alert on his phone right that the police were like, well, you said that you you knew it was a body or you knew it was your uncle. How did you know that? He's like, as I saw it on my phone and I just have thought, oh, maybe that's my uncle who disappeared. I
haven't seen him, we haven't heard from him again. We kind of were going in circles here, but the police just putting the words into his mouth. I was kind of impressed at a sixteen year old had of news alerts coming up. Yeah, that's true. I was like, Wow, let's play another clip. I don't know what number this one is four, perhaps number four. This is the one around everyone clips are happening. This is
the one where I feel like they finally broke him. They finally break this kid and he starts crying and just doesn't know how to tell them something that they haven't already heard. Can I ask, do you think it's he should
have been able to you know what? I maybe I do need a lawyer, like he should have been able to do that, you should be able to Definitely, I'm glad you brought that up, because that was another one of Mike's points about this is that the kid didn't know that he had to stay right, or didn't know that he could leaves what I meant to say, and so he just just sat there and just kept taking this punishment for just hours and hours and hours. But here is them breaking him and the
cop just such a fucking dick thing to him. Pretty early on. Okay, I'll start from the beginning. I'll give me exactly everything that I know. Is it gonna be the same shot we've already heard? Yes? Possibly that part right there. I'm gonna tell you guys, is it the same shit we already heard? Like? All right, can I just go please? Well, yeah, it's gonna be the same shit. Yeah, okay.
Look, I want to know what happened to Marcus. I think one time you cared about it, all right, and you still care about him, all right. I need to find out what happened there. We need to know, we to know how much you're evolved it. What do you know if you're the one at harming I'm not the one that armed him. Do you know who? Oh? I don't. I think you're leave him some amount. I don't know. I'm being serious. I don't know who
armed however, he left. I don't they does. Yeah. I just at the end of that clip where you just hear the kid go like, oh my God, like he just can't fathom that this is happening to him. I just feel so bad for him at that. Yeah, you think he's ever gonna trust a gap again? No, I don't think so. They talk a little bit as well. We mentioned earlier that he worked at an ice cream shop um and that detectives had come to visit him there.
I thought this was interesting. They noticed that his hand was swollen and had scrapes on it, and then William said that he punched a tree and that's why he scrapes on his hand. I just thought bad. But at the same time, I'm like, ah, yeah, he's sixteen, right's yeah, they're like eighteen by the time. I don't know if he's eighteen at the time of the trial or at the time of this store. I think
he's eighteen when he gets interrogated one of the sixteen eighteen. Yeah, but you do stupid things when yeah, at that age and you're just like, oh man, there's that, there's that that guy, that governor that's in a wheelchair. They have the pictures of the video him beating up a tree. Yeah, so you know it happened. It happens people beat up trees. But what are the weird time, like just the time you're like, fuck, really have punched a tree three days before the exactly bad, terrible
timing. And I don't know, did you ever work in an ice cream store or have friends that worked at an ice cream store. No, I had friends that worked at the local thirty and your hands get gnarled, really screwed up, and they get like like milky and uh and pruny. It's gross. What are they soaking in the ice cream? What they kind of do? If you're working an ice cream shop over the summer, you're just
constantly gonna dip that scooper in the water and scrape it all out. Because I said to my wife, and I'm like, what the fuck's happening at that ice cream shop? That he's all scarred up? Yeah, well that seemed like maybe I don't know what they were talking about, the rods or something, the wires around from from the lids, right, Yeah, maybe that's what it was. But I'm telling you I had friends that. First
of all, you smell awful when you work in ice creams. You start it starts out with that waffle cone smell, but eventually is just like that, like, uh, spoiled milk would probably be the best thing to describe. Bring that with you wherever you go. Oh man, gross, it's way gross. Always work in a yogurt chop, never an ice cream chop. That's the key. You gotta get that soft served baby can come to
you. They let him just weigh it and send him on. My favorite part is that they have the tip machine on those yogurt things and like, I just did all the work, your sons of it. Yeah, let's
jump to the false confession because I think it's interesting. You did it, You did it did The story that they eventually concoct is very bizarre, which is that they he played chess with his quote unquote uncle who then left, and then rather than going to bed, which he claimed he did, the officers get both him and his sister to admit quote unquote that they got into a vehicle after ending the chase game, drove along the road, saw him
walking there, stopped the car, and then the crazy foster kid got out and started laughing and then eventually started punching and kicking and choking this guy. And then the other kids also got involved in this punching and kicking and choking, and then they took the body that covered it in a tarp and they threw it in the river. But then when you kind of learn about all the different and it was like up current. It was upstream from where they
claimed. Oh yeah, yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, all these and then again all the like, oh we have footage of you, we have the DNA, like, none of that. They don't have any of that, which going back to are they evil or are they just bad? I mean, yeah, just I think they're evil. You just think they're straight. I think that. I think when you just go after one thing and don't have a group of subspects at the beginning, you're in you're this guy did it, This guy did it. Yeah, you've got it.
You've got some sort of boner for being a bad person. Yeah, because you're right. I mean, these guys, these cops couldn't possibly have fully believed, knowing all these facts, that the kid did it. They all just keep I know, they'll just keep blowing up too, and they never let the kid know that it blew up. Well, maybe you're right, maybe you're right. They never say that to the kid once, where like, well maybe you're right, maybe you know you're right. Okay,
you aren't. You do your hands are scraped up because of ice cream? You're right? Yeah, but why this and then he's able to do that? Okay, all right? Then yeah, you could just tell from the quality of his answers that he's speaking the truth, and going back to the sort of the science behind this whole thing, the fact that false confessions happen a lot. I had a lot more than you think that they would.
And they don't just happen to people who are maybe at a mental disadvantage or they're a juvenile, like what happens to normal people, which is something that blew my mind because I thought it was always somebody that had some sort of mental disability. Yeah, I didn't think any just normal person just agreed to it. Yeah, which again it just asking ourselves the question of I guess now I would have to in that scenario ask for a lawyer, but it's
still not clear really why, like why did they confess? It really is just to like be left alone. Well, like I just feel like I would go to my fucking grave. I would say that interrogation room for forty eight hours, which you would never hear me say that I did it because I didn't. It's kind of the same thing when people you're a victim, you're a victim, and that you're you're you're being beaten down, you're being you so you're you just want just leave me alone. Just just leave me
alone. Um. And there's it's it's more than just you know, um that that case, it's like, um, there was a hockey player that was raped by a video coach. You know, they got drunk and he took advantage of them, and then the guy held above them. Hey, I'm going to take your career away if you tell anybody about this, like, and people are like, why wouldn't you beat him up? Because it
doesn't matter, It doesn't matter about your size. But when people have of power, of power, when the cop that put that uh or that coach hold that above you, you turn into a weak person. Yeah, that's true. And the cop is that they're they're a person of power. They're holding they're holding your life in their hands. And you're like, oh, if I do this, I'm gonna you know, it's gonna be better for me, even though it's not gonna be better for you. But they've talked
you into believing it's going to be better for you. Right now, that's very well said. And that and I'm not really in the way I said, I just no. That was that was perfect because it reminds me of the sort of end of this false confession, which is the kid asking the police like, did what I just say to you come close to what actually happened? Like he's still a mind in the ballpark yet him? Are you
guys making me play happy with me? Yet? Please? Like, even in this moment of doing this false confession, the kid, I think is thinking his own innocence will prevail. I'll say whatever you want, but you guys know that I didn't really do this. So if you want me to say that and it will help your case, then I'm gonna tell you that to help your case. But was that close to that help? And that guys are just like, yes, it helped us perfectly right, And now
that kid's screws just googles, yes, googles. Well, again, we already went through this idea that all of these aspects of the story could be fact checked. The debit card having eight cents on it, the location being we've all been the eight cents, we've all been there. Oh yeah,
we've all been there. But also this idea and the like the doctor that they the expert that is interviewed in this episode also talks about how like how convincing confessions are and that even when you have the DNA evidence that might exonerate somebody, the power of a verbal confession will sometimes outweigh that DNA. Which is so it just seems so backwards. You would think that the DNA this is science, This is a scientific proof that they were or were not there.
And they're like, well, they said that they weren't there, so that has to be what we've learned that over over the pandemic. Science can be out science out tied, but it can be out and it can be overthought. Yeah, and and well you know words can mean more than the science. Yeah. Well, we got to hear a little bit about what happened to each of the kids, and they really were kids. They were
teenagers that were involved in this story. Um, we know that the sister who wasn't interrogated in this story, her name is Andrea, which, by the way, Andrea and Deirdre. This goes along with my name and your kids all with the same first letter. You know how many times I had to go back and listen to this fucking part of the episode and this name sound exactly the same. Sorry a little rant there. Just changed to everybody's
name so it's easier for the murder shows in case something goes down. Yeah, So Andrea was held for a week and then the charges were dropped. That's probably the best case scenario of everybody. I think, is there a lawsuit available for that? In fact, there is, and that isn't the updates. And I have the son of a bitch, I digest what is that? I'm gonna jomp I had we gonna drop I had your Jemmy had
three sentences. So let me do these three sentences. First, let me shot it back Harley, which is the the kid who was prone to violence. Charges were never brought up to him, which is again, if if we're gonna say that anybody, it was probably that kids. It's probably the guy that was named after a biker gang. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Deerdre who was the one who was interrogated and then falsely confessed to a crime she did not commit. She was in prison for four months before the charges
were dropped. And then our boy William Hurt, he was in prison for eight months and then once it went to trial, he was found not guilty on every single account, which is just so embarrassing for your police department. But here's my update, because at the end of the episode, we learned that the Hurt family is filing a civil suit against the police. So here's the deal. In August of twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, the Hurt
family settled that wrongful imprisonment lawsuit. So the Hunt family maintained that the brother was a paranoid schizophrenic he had threatened to jump off the bridge near where the body was found. The Court of Appeals allowed the suit to proceed after determining that the qualified immunity was not appropriate, and then the US Supreme Court refused to review that ruling, and then basically the civil lawsuit got pushed back from
twenty nineteen to twenty twenty one. But ultimately the parties settled the suit before I could get there, so it is considered a significant victory for civil rights. And the details on the settlement were not shared, so it's kind of impossible to know exactly what happened. But again, if we're talking about a settlement here, my assumption is a lot of money to the Hurt family, and those officers responsible I'm assuming lost their jobs, but that's me inferring a
little bit. I'm no, at least they were due to demoded they have been. I mean, this is a huge and also something that we should brought up with other police departments and shown in training of the things that you
don't do. Yeah. Well that's kind of an interesting question too, is do you think that the like the read technique will just kind of remain or do you think eventually we're going to kind of learn other ways to interrogate people that might not lead to I think we're trying to lean against it, even in when we're doing military like when you know, when we're taking combatants of the United States and we're trying to get information out of them by getting rid
of we're trying to get rid of the way we get the information out of them, to make it different because they realized you don't get the truth and you don't get what you need by you know, beating somebody there. If they don't have it, they'll give it, give you something just to get you to stop beating them. Yeah. So I think it's it's going to take a long time, but you know, you know how people are. We fought seatbelts, we fought smoking indoors. You know, I mean,
we're we're a fucking mess. So yeah, we don't we don't do it. It's like, oh, yeah, that is you're right, Yeah, we shouldn't do that. Now we're like, noah, when we should try it out a couple more times, We're not really sure. Yeah, so yeah, I would like to think that there will be another type of interrogation tactic. Yeah, I just agree with the other before next time, before next time I go to jail. Yeah, I just it is the fact that you can. It says in the episode that it's very hard to tell
the difference between a coerced confession and an actual confession. That to me is kind of freaky. Yeah, it certainly seemed to me listening to that audio that that seemed like a coerced confession. But maybe that's just because that's it's being broken down line by line and Mike is sort of explain to us why
this is right or wrong. So it's pretty clear. But it's weird to me that you could sit a jury down and show them two confessions and one of them's real ones not and they wouldn't be able to tell the difference. So I don't know what that means, but they're I don't know, I mean, and the like lie detectors. That was seemed like an interesting advancement in technology to have a thing that could actually tell you if someone was lying or not. But we've all learned that that's a bunch of bullshit too,
right, So I don't know what the solution is. Sodium pentethal? Wow, drug people up right, Yeah, that's True's give them the happy drugs. Yeah, daddy on, now we're talking. We've got to amp up the electronic music. Give them some molly and just what they say. Yeah, what a great idea. And I do I the way Mike said it may not be the way that people wanted to hear it, but you should
definitely know your rights and be smart. Yeah, and I hope that this episode taught people something taught me. I definitely think about my own scenarios, like my own panic scenarios, a little differently. You know, I think I would act a little bit differently. Yeah, you know, we none of us want to ever be and be in that situation. But if we're ever in that situation, which you know, could happen, you never know, you know, knock on wood that it never does. But you should
know, Hey, some people aren't out there for your best interest. They're out there trying to solve a crime, and yeah, and get done here if you really had something to do it, you mean nothing to them. Yeah, well they say don't talk to cops, but they do say talk to podcasters. That right, they do, and we encourage you to reach out to us again. I'm on the Twitter at Matt fonde Leer. Ian's on Twitter at sir Ian Bag Syrian Bag. I'm also on the TikTok.
Are you on the TikTok? I'm not. I'm putting my comedies on the tiko. People have been watching me. What's your handle? How do we follow Ian Bag comedian great on the TikTok? And yeah, and they send me all sorts of things to look at as either a girl dancing or it's very interesting the TikTok. But it's fun. So Ian Bag on there. You should get a TikTok, which, yeah, all right. Maybe I
think I've put some sword and scale stuff up there. Oh cool, So I think there is a sword and scale or somebody else is doing one. It's not yeah, something's going on with sword scale on there. Um, but yeah, yeah, it's good. Cool. Well, subscribe to our podcast if you're not already Sword and Scale rewind. We also have other shows that we do. I do a show called The Water Cooler, which is a lot of fun. I have a food segment called Chef on Delay,
which I've been working on for decades. Did you do anything for Did you do anything for Thanksgiving? For your food? Oh? Yeah, talked about the incredible spread that my family had, Not that my mom cooked, because she don't cook. But we went to a nice restaurant. That was good. That's good. Ian. You have another show as well that you do. Hold on, I'm gonna talk. This is a Christmas Yeah, this is least in January. Did you do anything for New Year's Yes? I
did. I had a magnificent spread. Sorry, people, I'm a little dumb. I would have I would have I would have admitted him the crime way earlier than that kid. Well again, thank you guys for listening. Please tell a friend and tell your friends as well. Telephone, tell a friend. Yeah, and tell your friends this. Don't be a douchebag. Yeah you tell them that. Yeah yeah, Mashy sort of Scale Reward is
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