Episode 167

Welcome to Sword and Scale Rewind with your hosts Matt Fondelier and Ian Bag. Hey, everybody, welcome back to Sword and Scale Rewind. This is the show where we talk about that other show, Sword and Scale. You know what, You'll love it. Hopefully you like us too. I'm one of the hosts. My name is Matt Fondelier. I've written some episodes of the show, but I just love it. I just love Sword and Scale. Scared the crap out of me many many years ago. I just got totally

hooked on it. And if you're listening to the show, I sort of feel like you're probably feeling the same way. Now I'm joined once again by one of my good buds, Ian Bag. Well, this is how I found the show. How did you find out about it? Well, I reached out to you. I reached out to me. He said, Andy, let this be scared shitless. I was like, who is this and he's in It's finally and I said, oh, well found Eller and uh. And then I listened to the show. I'm like, wow, I

had a chance and maybe I'm part of this. And you said, well, it's a matter of fact. As a matter of fact, yes, come in in and now we talked murder every week. We just loved the way that you talked about dead babies and horrible murders. That we are like, this guy is our guy. This guy has no shame, but we

love him. Well, if you listen to me last week, then you did your homework and you already listened to episode one sixty seven, And if you listen to one sixty seven, you're probably curled up in a little ball in the fetal position in your So this one, this is uh, definitely one of the more aft up stories that we've done, which is really seeing something because everyone's they're all mess So this one is just this is just sadness. It's just there's a couple parts in here where I know, I don't

think we're victim blaming, but we'll discuss sure. That's what we do on the show. This is a reaction show. If you've never listened to it before, what we do is we listen to the same thing you just listen to, and then we say all those things that you're probably thinking, yeah, and let us know if you think some of these things, like let us know what you thought when you her first heard this. Wow, that came out hard. Yeah. When it starts the episode, I'm I'm blaming

mom instantly. Yeah, just like a matter because I don't know about these cases. So just the way you listen to it, you just go, this bitch killed her kids. Of course it's true. I have the exact same problem when you're when you get really into the true crime podcast genre, you find yourself becoming what's called an armchair detective, where just you're lean back and you're you're doing the facts, searching yourself. You're trying to figure it

out before the answers are revealed, just the facts. Mike, Yes, and I am like you two and that when this episode started and you hear them, well, really, even before they mentioned the mom, they just mentioned the dad. They mentioned Kevin Krim, who's like on an airplane back from a trip. He's looking forward to seeing his kids, and then police are boarding the plane and I'm like, this guy did it. That's why I thought. I was like, now he was fucking around in Chicago,

that son of a bitch was having all sorts of orgies. Well and Matt his wife murdered, right, Yeah, And it's not at all the story, No, at all, there's two twists right off the bat. Yeah, I was shocked. Were you shocked that they made that announcement on the plane? The police stay seated the police, I think they have to, but he wasn't being arrested. Of course they wanted they wanted to get to him before, you know, but it didn't make sense that they wouldn't have

just been waiting for him or made the announcement for or him. Kes that made it sound like there was a criminal onboard. I think I agree with you. They could have handled this in a much more subtle way. Right. I'm assuming that the reason it took place on the plane was because they knew that this guy was in seat twenty two F or whatever, and so they could very easily identify this person, right versus waiting at the end of that ramp when you get off the plane and then just knowing which of these

passengers is the guy. It was just it was just weird. And when when I gotta say this, when I say things about they handle this wrong. You know, at the end of the day, we're all human, Like they may be the police, but they're humans. Sure, they don't they don't we don't know, you know, they may be experts, but at the same time we're just human. So absolutely. Yeah. So when I when I say, oh, these fucking douche and wetpts, yeah I

was more so. I was more shocked than a MSNBC suppressed sends our eyes out and coach, Yeah that's funny. I was like, really it was in coach, that's weirder. Comedian was upfront. Yeah that's right, baba. I fly first class. Wow, look at you, and I like to brag about it every so often. What's that like, I've never done it? Shut up, Let's just take a minute away from this case. I'm totally serious. Look, I don't have never, I've never flow never. Okay, I'm gonna tell you. Hold on, let me tell you

the one first class experience. No oh. This was me coming home from my honeymoon with my beautiful wife, flying home from London and through circumstances that were out of our control, we nearly missed our flight from London back to California and running like home alone style, running through the airport trying to make

this flight. We finally got on the flight and we had to walk through first class and I looked at two seven year old boys who had these full cliners, and I'll never forget just sipping from a cup of orange juice, and I was like, I'm sweating and panting from running through the airport, and I was just like, these fucking kids, they're never gonna understand they're seven years old. They're never gonna remember this experience. This is my honeymoon.

This is my honeymoon that I think, honestly, I don't think kids should be allowed in first class. No, I really don't think it should be a twenty one and over club. You should be required to drink. I have required to drink in first class, and then you have everybody turned into oasis, going to calling people pan heads for no apparent race. I tell me about this glory, because again I've only I walked through. And then they closed those two little hamper curtains. I don't see the curtain.

The curtains close on international flights, but they don't on on just a regular yeah, domestic. I looked at the curtain and they were like, sir, turn your head away to look that. Don't even think about moving that. We're gonna have you exit from the back of the Blaney. Um. It is the best flying drink. You get a snap, you get, you get sometimes you get a hot towel. They used to give you hot towels, and uh and uh, stay, give you a little package when

you fly international. Then you just put on some socks and aren't you own. You can get pajamas. You can wear pajamas. It's the best. But the problem with first classes one day you end up flying private jet. Once you're facing the dragon, Dude's chased because once you're fly private jet, you come back to first class and oh this is bullshit because on private jet you have estimated time of leaving a departure, and on a on a on this first class you're still leaving at exact times. So yeah, it is

be honest with me. And another audio is going out to a lot of people. But you're living the high life. You're flying private jets. You know you're flying first class. Ever been to the mile high Club? Have I ever been to male high? Up? For the listener step been shipping on an airplane? I'm not answering this. All right means yes on Southwest back years ago, sad dumb all of say, I'll tell you fish sticks,

that's all us. I don't want to know what that means. We have to laugh up front here because I just don't want to get into this exist and I don't want to do it. I don't want to talk about these things. As soon as we get there, it's no more, no more first class, no more first class talk. Yeah, I have to reluctantly try to bring us back to the story here. Now, neither of

us have to let you know, just let you people know. Michael's looking through it at us through a window over there, telling us to keep on track. Yeah. Probably he's just like you guys telling this story. Mike doesn't care. He he cares how we roll. He cares, he does, he cares too much, he cares too much. All right, let's try to let's try to get through this story. This one's really messed up.

I don't have kids. I know you don't have kids. So neither of us have had to deal with having a caretaker, somebody that you trust too. How about a dog walker? Oh, there you go, you have to trust him. So I've never had a dog walker before. Yeah, my wife, My wife makes them rigorously fill out for him. And yeah, we have to have they would to be suggested I gotta yeah, all sorts of things, but as we learn in this, you can't trust

them. Mean shit. I mean honestly, this is the type of story that makes me feel like if I were to have kids, I would I don't care how hard it would be. I would have to just constantly be watching them. I would not allow anybody, nobody allowed to look at It sounds like, according to my friends, that's what happens on the first child. If you have another one, you stopped caring as much as much.

Yeah, it kind of slowly slips down. Yeah. I was actually this past week and I hung out with some friends of mine, just punched a microphone, some friends of mine that I hadn't seen in forever, but somebody that I grew up with, and I was reminded that at age eight, my friend and I were dropped off by my parents at the movie theater to go see a classic film called Hot Shots Part And I always remember that it was like the first time I ever got to see a movie in the theater

by myself without my parents. But you're eight, eight years old, and I had it in my memory that this happened. But as I've gotten older, I have thought that can't be true. I can't possibly be true. And I hung out with my friend and I was like, do you have this memory? And he remembered the exact movie title and everything, and we know when that movie was released, and it just my parents are incredible.

I have amazing parents. Can you imagine in twenty twenty one or twenty twenty two having dropping off your eight year old child to go see a movie and this was something that was just happening all the time. I'll go a reverse on you. Isn't it sad that we can't? Yes, that's the problem, Like not that. Can you believe you could? You could? It's like, right, well, you're right. Why why have we gotten to that point? What? What have we let take over the internet? Is

that what it is? I think there's just two Like it used to be. You only found out about a missing kid if you were a milk drinker and you bought write carton of milk, you know what I mean? Like now I want to check my email and they're seventeen links, especially because I read true crime stuff. My Facebook wall is my Google search engine. I'm surprised police have not come to my door before. I've got to Google some very upsetting things. Oh my god, but christ, Google just hasn't shut

you down. Hey man, can you come down a little bit. Yeah, I'm sure it's only a matter of time. But I think, honestly, that's why I think it is. I think, my You know, all of the people now who have kids have heard more stories than they could ever ever, so you expect to hear, so you don't think there's more. You don't think more stuff is happening. You think it's the same amount.

But we know more. I'm gonna even go a step further. I'm willing to bet that there's a little bit less than they're used to be, but now we know more. And the reason I think there's less is because of like security cameras and stuff. I think back in the day, people could be just completely carefree about kidnapping somebody without anyone finding out, Like there was just so many ways to get away with X, y Z. But now I think there is a deterrent to having everybody having the camera and their

hand cameras being installed in buildings all the time. So I feel like there has been a slight decrease, but the amount of information has just exploded that's my hot take. That's a good hot take. Thank you. I'll tell you mine. I mean it's not a hot take. I just something about that what you just said. I could never get my camera open on my phone and time to tape anything. I don't know how people actually tape stuff. Yeah, I can describe about what just happened my camera. But well

again, i'll tech talkie after the show. Here, let's get let's get that baby on your home screening, and I feel like we can figure this out. That's two episodes and a rail you've called my grandpa. That is awesome. O love it. Yeah, all right, Hot Shots Part two?

What was your favorite part? Oh my god? Well, I think at the very end of the movie when mister Bean, who's the long lost husband is rex rescued from prison and Charlie Sheen, who's rescuing him, is carrying him on his shoulders and is getting shot repeatedly, and mister Bean, who's not the one being shot, is the one who's like complaining about how long it's all taking. And there's just a big finale with the American Gladiators. I mean, it's it's one of the all time greats. I love

those kind of dumb movies. Yeah. Yeah, it's sad that there's not more in the month anymore. Yeah, anyone else is sad in this horrible case. I know, I'm trying to push it off. I don't know if let's go to that. Let's not, let's not review hot Shots Part two. Oh no, Well, let's go back to this idea of needing somebody to take care of your kids. It's not going to be just anybody. You want to make sure that you get references, right, And in

this particular story, that's exactly what happened. They the parents were very conscientious about who's gonna watch their kids, and well, they weren't even planning on getting a nanny, were they right? They were just making it work, just working from home. Mega Network, Mega Network, And then they were The wife was approached by somebody, Celia, who said, hey, you should hire my sister. She's great with kids, Celiac, She's worked with

kids before. And she said, when you guys have your third child, you guys are gonna need her. You're gonna need it. Now we find out the very third child you're gonna need, You're gonna need this babysitter to get rid of two of them. Oh no, horrible, but if you done in sorry, I apologize to everybody at home work. Well, we find out at the very end of this episode that can I stop. Yes, I want to put it out there to people children. Yeah, I'm

available. Look when I'm not flying first class, let me take care of it. Yeah. I want to know. How many people have a nanny And there's there's different rates of nanni's, like one that just is in the afternoon, that comes over after like after school, or do you have a full full day nanny? Because I know a couple of friends that have nanny's um and there they I have one that has a full time nanny, and then I have one that just you know, they come over and they do

stuff when when after school? So do you do you think it's unnecessary? Do you think do you think it's gross that somebody has one? Or I need to know take on nanny's Yeah, because I don't. I don't know. Like when I hear the story, I'm like, well, my mom didn't work and my dad worked and my mom was able to keep it all together, Like why us all together? Why? Why does she need why

does she need a nanny. I mean, listen, everybody, I gotta just preface it by by trying to apologize as an advance for people who do live this kind of a life. I do think that if you don't have a job, one of the people in the relationship doesn't have a job, that person can be the full time is the nanny, right skin maybe should be the nanny. But I also understand that people have ambitions, people have things that they want to do in their lives. They don't want to be

seen as just a mother or a housewife or insert word here. So I understand that if again, just in this nineteen fifties view of Americana where the husband goes off to work and it's just a wife's job to watch the kids. That's kind of like an old school of thinking. So I can see how having a caretaker at home to help lighten the load if you have multiple kids, it requires a lot of work. I get it, I understand, and I know this is this is weird, but it's part of the

story. I'm like, how much money is this guy making at CNBC? Right, he can afford a nanny, but not a first class ticket. M still on this first class thing but you know it's and they're paying cash for right At least i'd have to do as half a dense attacks right off. Yeah, well, I mean again, I just like you. I feel like I've known people on all parts of the spectrum. I know people who had nanny's, people who didn't have nannies. I never did. Both

my parents worked, so I don't really know. I guess that's why they dropped me off at the movies when I was eight years old. A lot I hired about. I was taken care of by the man theaters movie staff. Um. But yeah, I was raised on popcorn. I just it does seem story yoh yeah please. So I'm on LinkedIn and for some unknown reason, I get a job opportunity for a comedian. It's for a nanny, for a comedian to nanny a comedian. No, it's an it's to

be a nanny of a comedian's kids. Okay, there we go right now. And it was full time and it was sixty thousand dollars a year or something like that. There you go. But I was just like, this is weird, And as I read through it, I figured out it was one of my friends. Oh really, Yes, he's a little pale, he's blonde, he's from New York. If you can't figure out what that is. But it was. But I when they said paid cash, I was, I was like, this, doesn't you know even though they did

so much, they wanted to references and stuff. I felt they paid what they they got what they paid for, even though they didn't pay for a murder. They but they still didn't, you know, and I didn't do enough. Yeah, because if they had paid them over the counter, I don't know what they under the table is. If they had paid them in a more professional way, maybe you're not getting a professional. If you're paying cash, you're not a professional unless it's a side job for a professional that

you know. You know, But it's at the same time, I was just like, ah, it really bothered me. It bothered me a lot. And I'm not blaming the parents. It's just because we know that there's so many of this happens, and none of that happens, right, Yeah, you know, because babysitters don't get paid cash and they don't murder us all, you know, so one more kids so basically get paid cash, right, I'm saying they get paid cash and none of them barely have references

and stuff like that. Usually teach your kid how to smoke and stuff. But then it's it's it's it's I don't know why it bothers me that they paid cash for a nanny, but I felt like they didn't get a professional. Yeah, it's sort of like in the dating world. What I heard was that there's certain dating sites that you go to if you're actually serious about having a relationship. You want to go on one of those apps. You know it's a free site or whatever. You're not going to have high quality

dates. Yeah, you gotta go to plenty of Fish, right, is that what it is? Somebody this weekend they'd met on plenty of Fish. I'm like, is that free? And I like, am I won't be careful? Yeah exactly. I know it's a weird thing to equate it too, but I can I can see what you're saying. You do want to have a nanny, that's I guess licensed in blah blah blah. But well, do you go to the mechanic that has a shop or the guy that you know has another job that's nothing to do with being a mechanic. But

does it? Does it for fun in his garage. Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean again, I feel like I have except and I don't know why I'm so mad that like, that's that least. Yeah, that's the least of the situation. Yeah, but it annoys the fuck Adamy. Well, i'll tell you what bothers me about it. Okay, Well, besides the by that she murdered children, it's very upsetting a fact. But what is like really disturbing about this and kind of messes with my brain is

that allegedly this woman was a pretty okay employee for like two years. Right, So even if you can get past the whole notion of the we are paying under the table, after a year, she's proved herself, she's proven herself, and I feel like at that point the walls are really coming down. I mean, you people are getting too relationships with partners that last less

time than that, you know what I mean. So to me, the really upsetting part is that this woman just had this like hatred and stuff just like festering for two years and never said anything about being uncomfortable, and then she just snapped. And nobody, at least the way this story's told, nobody had any clue that that was going to happen. It was. It was interesting that she would say things, but she would put on a different

face with the people, right, you know. They said that she was being she was annoyed that they offered her more work because she needed more money. Like instead of asking her saying saying, no, can you pay me more? Yeah, she instead was just like incredulous that they would even suggest that. And the hours weren't crazy. It was like twenty five hours a week at is one of the parts of this episode I have like bulleted and

outlined in my outline. We can get to it right now. Though she was only working twenty five hours a week, right, that's the part that blew my mind. I didn't have another job and was able to live in New York and pay for her son's private school. There's this whole thing where she's like, it doesn't want her kid to repeat a grade, so they let's get into that. Let's let's get into private school. Sure, Catholic private school seven thousand dollars down payment? Yes, what what's Christian about?

Then? That's a great question. I don't get. I think Catholic private school should be free, and they pick who they want, but it shouldn't. You shouldn't be making a profit off of there's no church that should be make a profit off of teaching somebody. Yeah, I guess when I hear private school though, if whether or not it's a religious school, I just feel like the like school institution takes priority over that church institution, you know

what I mean. Like, I'm not saying it's right, but I just feel like, if you're a school, you are, like you're allowed to charge people tuish in I don't think that should be exorbitant. And I'll tell you from personal experience, I'm still paying my college loans because I went to an extremely expensive college. My wife is, yeah, and it's it's ridiculous. I mean, I had a great experience there, but I mean I've been in a college for over ten years now, I mean at least tubes.

Yeah. So I mean I understand that a nice university is going to cost you some money. And I guess, like the people in this story, my parents sent me to a school that they were not prepared to pay for financially and thus still paying for loans and whatever. But this situation in this case, I mean the woman hadn't seen her son for like ten or eleven years, which was a little bit unclear to me, but she like fourteen or something left the family and then I guess maybe started to make a

little bit of money here and then told him to come on out. And then now her expenditures are just going through the roof. But I'm she was also sending money to different charities, you know, all over the place. And it seemed like she had been told by somebody that her kid has to go to a private school. Yeah, if you want your kid to be anybody, or if you don't want them to go to hell, because mom and dad there's they're they're they're able to pay for a nanny and they're sending

their kid to public school. Right, So what what? Where? Did? Where did this twist off? Like? What what happened that this lady has been talked talked into or told that her kid needs to go to private Christian Catholic school? Right? Yeah, I mean that's one of the larger

questions in this first part of the story. I one can only surmise that she it was almost, at least in my brain, like the seeds of her envy like just starting to see how she's trying to be like Marina, Like she wants to be able to give her kids the kind of thing that she's seeing and being a part of every day. And she's going home to this you know, shitbox apartment and forgive the term. And so maybe in her mind this is a an elite status that my kid is attending this school.

I'm better than you. Yeah, trying to find a way to get a little bit weird, weird jealousy, weird jealous weird, weird kind of thing. We're about twenty five minutes, twenty six minutes into the show, and I'd like to bring up that my sister's name is Jocelyn. Oh, it is funny when like a name you're closed with. It's like the killer in the story and my sister has all these attributes. Well, let me ask you, though, is your sister name Jocelyn or is it Yoselin.

Well, from now on, she's gonna be al a lot tonight, Yosel Yocelin. When you recommend this show to people, maybe don't recommend that your sister listens to that one. Oh, jos BOSSI uh uh I. I think the family, not the family that hired her, but her family was setting up somebody. It wasn't specifically these people, but what were they setting them up for, like putting this lady in charge. Hmm. It was very bizarre, the whole as it. I don't may have gotten too far

ahead of the story. The fact the fact that they wrote fake recommendations and stuff from people that didn't have children. Yeah, um is it's not just a scam, it's evil, right because they had no idea how this lady took care of kids. Yeah, especially when it's with kids, Like if you want to write like a fake reference letter because you've got a job at the Domino's Pizza and you want to say that you worked at Little Caesar's before,

but you really did it. Yeah, I'm not. I feel like that's a little bit more okay, right, if you're going to be in charge of children. Though, let's be honest here, it's not School of Rock. Yeah, you know they they the twenty five hours thing though. Yeah, that's that's what's wild to me. And I'm glad that we have circled back to this because there is a line in the episode where they're saying that Yosselyn could either have quality time with her son hayeseus or have money for

hayeseus. Right, And at the time hearing that sentence, it made sense to me that, Okay, she's either got to spend time with her kid or she's got to be at work to make money for the kid. I get that she can't have both. But then when you hear that she was only working twenty five hours a week, now, I'm like, how does she not have plenty of time to be and still hang with a kid.

She could work two more part time jobs and still hang with a kid, or she could work one more full time job and still have time with a kid. She won twenty five hours. Let's commute time for most people, right, and it's I mean, it is exhausting work to be dealing with kids. I get that, But twenty five hours. Let's just say on a five days a week, Yeah, Monday to Friday. That's five hours

for Monday to Friday. So that's ten o'clock to three o'clock or three to three to eight or four to nine, right, four to nine probably actually, I know you just were trying to mock me, but I'd probably say no, would probably be two to six. What what would you think? What do you think her hours were? Well, they do talk about this idea of the like dance classes, so it's after school kind Yeah, it

was like an after school thing, so three thirty three. Yeah, but also one of the kids is like ten months old, it's not even in school, so my mom probably takes care of that child more. Yeah. Right, either way, I think even if she showed up at two in the afternoon, which sounds pretty late to me, that's a sweet job. Yeah, that's like, that sounds pretty great to me. And you still

have the weekends. Yeah, chug your beers with your other child, do you unless do you think it was two and a half hours in the morning, two and a half hours and the swing shift, yea swing shift, and she's traveling back and forth. But even then maybe, But that's that's that's a school bus driver. That's a school bus driver job exactly. And the idea that the wife, Marina started to say to her, Hey you need some extra money, I'll give you some extra hours. Here, your

son can dog sit. And for some warped, fucked up reason she got she saw that. Yeah, she took it as an insult, like, how dare you say I do more work. I already playing work like I just that's the disconnect that I'm just not understanding. She's offering you further employment and add ten more hours to your week. Which what have they created this over the two years that she's worked she's worked for them? Correct? Have they created this jealousy? Like did it start out different? Which isn't said

in the show? You know she's basically they've made it seem like she was above it as she was there, which is fine. You can be above things, right, You can be like, well, look I don't want any more hours, I'll keep these hours. I'll figure it out. You can be above it, but don't take it and then be mad that you got it exactly right. And also, if you are gonna get mad about it, let's try to find some other ways to blow off steam here, right, You know, you don't need to be like talking back to your

boss or anything. But what she was she she didn't talk about it like they never said there was problems with her, like her work was shoddy. It was the opposite. Yeah, this was extremely reliable and which which is so bizarre, Like I fucking hate you. I'm gonna make this so good. You'll never find anybody as good as me. Yeah, you, son of a bitch. I'm gonna clean this kitchen counter and you won't look like anyone ate here. Yeah. Yeah, you will eat off this floor.

You will never buy plates again. Well, listen, I know what it's like to be angry at work. I think we all do, you know, But no, I love this. Well, this isn't work, man, this is this is just play. This is this is twenty five hours a week. I'm gonna kill Mike. I'm above him. I guess it just became too much to have like two different lives. You know, she was like taking care of these rich kids in this huge house and they weren't her kids. But then when she was with her kid, then the setting

wasn't right. So, you know, I think it just nothing ever felt comfortable. Now, why do you think she was mentally ill? I think she's mentally ill to the point where she diabolically committed a heinous ad. Right, She's she's not insane, right, she's evil? For Yeah. Yeah, I think she has a jealousy, a crazy mental disorder that doesn't stop her from being a functioning person in society, but one that allowed her to

think it was okay to do this. That's to me, I don't I don't know how the courts ever draw that line, like, yeah, you were insane for doing this, but you weren't so insane that you didn't know you were doing this, and the we should It's been over half an hour. Now we got to just now talk about the horrible thing that we have been avoiding talking about. Can we talk about something before we go to there? Please, let's try to get to a whole hour before we talk about.

Let's all just all sit around and whispered this a second. Anybody else find it weird that mom said she liked the boy the best. I actually remember that line. She talked about how much she liked the boy. Oh no, yeah, So then one of the boy dies and one of the girls dies, but one of the girls lives. And now later on in life, you're gonna hear that, because yeah, I was like, oh, and then what do they do? They have two more kids? Yep, and they're both boys. I was just like, oh my god,

I was so bizarre. It was just like, holy shit, Yeah, it was so bizarre, I will say, And it's brought up in this episode too. This does seem like a pretty strong family considering all the stuff

that happened. Yeah, you know, it's that is pretty Uh. The fact that mom and dad are still together and had more kids is probably not going to happen in many families after something like that, right, and just it's like one of the clips that I have is them talking about, like focusing on like the good things that came out of this, which, as a listener just hearing the case, I'm just like, right, no good came out of this? And what do you what are you talking about?

Because it would have been very easy for them to blame each other like why were you out of town? Where were you? Where were you? Like? What? What the fuck? You know? Why why weren't you with two of the kids at least? Right, But thankfully they don't do any of that. At least I would not that. Yeah, exactly exactly, So so tell us what happened, man, lets let's get involved. So they have this whole thing about both Jocelyn and Marina. Again, that's the

mom, the babysitter and the mom. They're sharing this responsibility of taking the girls to their different classes. And this one ends when this one's about to start. And for two years, this whole system they had in place all worked out. But on this one horrible night, the mom goes to pick up her daughter and meet them at the ballet class or whatever it was, and she's not there, and then she starts frantically calling where are you,

and the woman's not picking up the phone. And then, of course the really horrible part, which is the mom comes back to the apartment with her other daughter. It's really dark in there, which is creepy as hell, and then they open the bathroom door and they see that both of her kids have been brutally murdered, and the woman who did it is standing there waiting for her to see it. And then that woman tries to kill herself, but only after she's had this moment of glory of watching the woman that she

hates be miserable. It's so insane. It's just so insane that she's just waiting there. And the anger that she used on these kids is incredible. Yeah, it's never brought up in the court case, when when when where you listen to it? I'm just like, I'm like, can you like the anger was insane? They thought they were they were their heads were taken off, right, Like, that's crazy, that is so much anger.

And then the way I apparently they bled out slowly yep. Uh so just just like so watching them, watching them, but like, well, that was the thing that I think, uh, we probably could have spent a little more horrible time with there probably just wasn't enough information about this. But to me, the part of the story that didn't really get addressed is the fact that Yosselyn was in that bathroom with those two bodies for ninety minutes,

however long it was. It wasn't three minutes, it was way longer than that. And we talked. They talked a lot about what happened with the actual murders, and obviously one of the most disturbing things ever is the idea that the bodies were stacked, which is so gross and weird. And I made, yeah, she's an organization first, But then to just sit in the bathroom with the door closed and just sit there in that eerie silence. You know, do you think she was waiting to kill the mom? Uh?

No, only because that's we're kind of told in the story. Otherwise, I don't think they tell us. But I was just like, why would you wait there? Why wouldn't you have just stabbed yourself then? Like you really think you would just wanted to see your face? Yeah, I mean that, that to me is what makes it because even more because you think you'd see, let mom see the see the bodies, and then stab mom and that would be the last thing they seen. Right. But I

guess there's there are things worse than death, you know. It's like you you you don't get to die. You have to live the rest of your life knowing that in what her she her mind is like you were a horrible parent and blah blah b Yeah. So I just thought that the whole I mean, the whole bathroom scene is just so deeply disturbing. And I don't know why the idea of the bodies being stacked is so upsetting to me. You joked about it like that, there's like an organizational aspect to it,

because she's a man. You joked about it just gives me trouble. You joked about it. What else I'm supposed to do? Cry? Yeah? No, But I don't know. For some reason, if the descriptor had been that the bodies were just disheveled and thrown into the tub. I don't think it. I mean, it's still very disturbing, but there is something about the meticulousness of the stacking, and it's there's another episode of Sword and Scale, one of the ones I worked on. I think it's actually a

plus one. I don't think it was one of the main ones. So unless you want to pay for her, you can't listen to it. That's what Matt. You said there for Sword and Sale plus if you want to available now. But it was another case where the dude like stacked the bodies. It's got to be some sort of so weird. It's got to be some sort of mental disease, right, It's got to be it's got to be some sort of psychiatry thing. Yeah, I don't. I don't know.

If you're if you're an expert, let us know why people would do that. Yeah, yeah, I just it's got to be something. There's no there's something to it. It's it's it's it's definitely specific and calculated. It's not random. To answer your question, though, I just I guess I already did. I don't. I don't think that she was ever intended on killing Marina when she got there. I think she wanted Marie. That's who she would suffer forever. It's weird that you don't kill the person that

you're most angry at, because that's who she was most angry at. They never say she didn't get along with the kids or the kids didn't have a good time, because the kids would have been telling mom, hey, don't send us with her. You would have you would have seen a change in the kids, right, Yeah, And they never said that the kids had that. So all that animosity and anger was built up towards this woman and

just just just wanted to take away. Yeah, just like you said to Just the anger that this woman had, just the amount of rage is just so disturbing. And you know, again, there's plenty of other horrible details to talk about. The idea that the little girl who died like tried to fight for her life, but you know, she's six years old. The idea that the other sister was, you know, four years old and she saw everything was kind of old enough to understand what was happening. All the

neighbors were calling the shrieks of the mom. I mean, there's just what an awful, awful thing. Yeah, Yeah, that that noise. Mike brings up one of the sins. I can't remember which sin he brought up. It was the sin of envy. Envy, but there was. She probably hit about four or five sins, right, yeah, she wasn't. She didn't not just the one time, right now, she she because she was would have been jealousy would have been one of them, right, jealous

and vs. Jealousy? What what? What are's? Uh, there's sloth, she did it slowly. There's rage, rage, rage, there's she's coveting her life. Yeah, right, there's the one where you eat all the time, gluttony, gluttony. Maybe she was gluttonous too, and didn't say They didn't say she didn't. She didn't run away because she couldn't. Uh. Yeah, murder's got to be one of them, right, yeah. Yeah, it's been a while since I've seen seven. Yeah, it's

covered pretty exclusively in that movie. Well, there's other signs that, uh, that Yoselin planned all this, including the fact that the night of the murders, she left a bunch of legal documents behind with her family and included essentially a sue A side note, she had every intention of killing herself after her grand presentation, if you will, and just a real lesson. I feel like all of us learned in this episode is you can't cut your own

throat and die. No, you just can't. People have tried for millennia. You know, there's the exception that proves the rule. But this girl, this monster, excuse me, this monster sliced so deeply that she broke bones, she damaged her vocal core. She had to be like intubated. She lived through it. So you know, people out there thinking about it, just don't do it. You don't do it. I love the way when she wakes up in a hospital, she just instantly starts blaming them,

just starts complaining, they made me work twenty three hours a week. Yeah, these asshotas. I have to imagine that's where the narrative of she did

all of this because she hated Marina so much. I'm wondering if that's not where that part of the story where he really gets filled in, because it sounds like once she's on her in her recovery bed, that she's just a fountain of complaints and you know, excuses, And I feel like that would have been the time where she had maybe said why she was doing what she was doing. She doesn't really ever say why though she doesn't really know.

But that's again why I feel like maybe she this is part of like her just talking to doctors and people in the hospital. There's there's got to be and it felt like she was pretending to be mentally ill. Well that's the last part of this entire story, is this is the kind of trial and the argument over whether or not she was mentally ill. Can you imagine having to represent this woman? No, Okay, here's something I wanted to bring

up. The person that represents her, did they believe in her? Because I was listening to that lady talk and I was like, um, she sounds like she kind of m believer, which was really disturbing to me. Well, when you are like a defense attorney, and especially if you're like a state appointed one. Was that a state appointed one that I believe it's like a public defender. Okay, this is a real tough case to have

to defend. I mean, the idea that she pleaded not guilty but had also admitted to killing the kids is such a one too that like, I just don't know how you defend that person. But instead they just tried to make it seem like she was guilty, not guilty, but I did it. Yeah, yeah, like that's I know, all the evidence that you have, all the physical evidence, all points to me doing it, and

I did do it, but I'm not guilty. What's the one? What's the what's the mental disease where you're like arrogant and you just believe yourself all the time no matter what you do. Narcissism is that? Do you think that's what she actually has? And I don't think that's I don't think you

can get off on anything being a narcissist extreme version of narcissism. Yeah, I mean a narcissist would probably be would probably be angling that the killing was more to benefit her life as opposed to doing it to ruin someone else's life. Well, but she was doing it because they had what she deserved, she felt she deserved. Yeah, I mean that's I think you could be right. There's like a light narcissism at play here. That's that is probably

part of it. What about this idea that she went and saw a psychologist of her own volition, like her family never told her to do it, even though she told him that she was like having visions of the devil following her at church and they're like, oh, okay, cool, well see Tuesday, Like you don't need help. But she went and saw a there you specialized in criminal behavior something absurd like that, right, which I don't know how that was the psychologist that she found. I think it was just

by mistake that that that was that was his expertise. I mean kind of not right, but you could have been like, that's that's why he would have thought. She would have been thought off, I'm feeling crazy, I gotta go see a psychologist. She goes and sees a psychologist. He asked questions that she's not you know, like expecting, right, and that kind of maybe gives her ideas well, That's what I was wondering, like what the fuck did this guy tell her? Because he gave her a clean bill

of health, and then she went and yeah, murdered two children. I went to a psycho. I go to a psychologist every once in a while, and I go because I don't go to I go to a therapist rather than the one that can give you drugs, because I prefer to not go the drug way on things. And and yeah, right, I've seen you, uh fan knows puzes um, but I always they never I don't remember them ever judging me, writing me down, just that they just let me

talk. So I didn't understand what that was where you got a clean bill help because they basically just said, yeah, come back, you know, come back. They could have just been asking that. They never said go, yeah, no, you're fine, go. They never say that that's true, although they they do say in this case that there was just never a follow up appointment. But that does sound a little a little strange to me too. Most therapists want want that next watch a business. Yeah,

yeah, that's true. That cliche is always we're out of time. Yes, we don't have time to talk about your murderous impulses, but we'll save that for next week your love of nice. Let gets back to that next week. Yeah, it did. The I thing is just it just grosses me out and just terrifies me. The person, Yeah, the person that can kill somebody with a knife is fucking way more like just evil than anybody

that shoots somebody with a gun, pushes anybody. You have to very rarely is it one knife staff, right, and just to be able to feel that over and over and over again, and the feel of something being cut is just that's when. Yeah, that's that's evil. That is completely evil, but a good person to have a Thanksgiving because they will make your turkey carved. Yeah. If you ever need to vent a potato before you put

it in the microway, I can get it through. Yeah. No, I agree, And I will say pulling the curtain back a little bit when we're looking at Sword and Scale episodes, trying to stay away from like Appy shot Er. Yeah, I mean there's plenty of episodes that that just there's enough other circumstances that it's compelling enough story. But generally speaking, when you want to tell a story about somebody who's super evil, they are generally committing a first hand, you know, kind of crime. Yeah, I would

agree that the knife crime is really creepy. Also, any sort of like farming equipment, you know, interesting like a like an axe, Oh okay, you know, pretty scary. There is this guy in Vancouver that would kill hookers and feed them to pigs who save that for a Sword in Scale episode? Do you know about him? That's pretty cool? Yeah, that's pretty cool. Listen, man, this is my business. I call him

the Hooker Bacon, the Hooker Bacon murders, the Hooker Bacon murders. I'm wow, oh god, how do we go from as a seriousness that's stupid? Like a seconds, we should be committed. Um, you actually provided a great line here. I can get us right back unless you have a thought ahead. You talked about your hooker Bacon trial murders. This trial. This trial also had a snappy name. They called it the nanny murder trial. Now, I'm always interested by the like name with which we refer to

a horrific incident like this. Obviously, like you know, the OJ trial or whatever. Nanny murder trial is confusing to me. I first think a nanny has been murdered, right, Then I have to do the math that know a nanny did the murdering, right, And then I just don't even know if nanny is even the right way to describe this woman. It's just a very misleading, just like snappy headline kind of name. The fake nanny murder trials is what they should be, yeah, or the Nana Boo Boo

trial. See now, where were you in twenty and sixteen? And this could have been called Boo boo trial. They had to it. Do you think they just overlooked things? There had to be some some hey, that girl is not right, Like yeah, I mean, I just here's the thing, and I agree with you. But after doing one hundred and sixty seven episodes of this Bragger, one of the things that stands out a lot is the person that it happens to or that like becomes the killer, is

the killer they you didn't, you would never know. You would never know that that person would one day just snap and do all these terrible things. That's what makes this whole genre so fucking scary. So you know, if I had been this has been the very first episode of Sword and Scale I ever listened to, I would be thinking, yeah, there had to be

other signs that she was a nutter before this went down. But frankly, I'm not surprised that nobody saw it coming, because I mean, what was really wild about this particular case is that all of this talk about the mental health all came up after like during the trial, right, you know,

there wasn't talk about her being crazy in the lead up to this. It was only after a legal strategy needed to be formed, right, And now you get all these witnesses in these stories and all these things trying to like quote unquote fill in the blanks, but those blanks are not supposed to be filled in. With the mental illness angle. It's kind of single white female kind of though, right, except for the nanny wants to have the life

of the mom. Yeah, yeah, I can see that. Yeah, it's the same, the themes of like jealousy and wanting that to have that life, but in single white female it's noticeable, like that bitch of nuts. Yeah, but they point out specifically that Yosselin. Yosselin finished college, she had several old jobs for you know, major companies. But what you could still be crazy is what you're saying. Well, no, mo, I'm saying, I don't want to work for this family. I don't work

in too many hours. You had jobs, you fucking have a college education, and you had jobs with major companies. Get the fuck out of their home, Yeah, go do something else. Yeah, Like that's like why are there? But mom and dad don't know. Mom and dad don't know that the lie that's been committed on to them by the by the family, So who knows why she's been let go, or if she was let go from these major, major jobs, maybe she was showing signs there of being

a complete fucking lunatic. Yeah, just that just makes it all the more tragic, you know, And that's kind of what's talked about too. Is I wish we knew if, in fact she was telling her family job for twenty five hours a week. Yeah, I mean too. Actually I already have one of those. I do that on top of my other forty hour week up the family hearing about the visions of the black man visiting her at church and it's the sign of the devil, and the devil made me do

it. All of that talk then becomes part of like this circus of it. It's not a black man, there's not a black guy. It's a guy that's just just a shadow. Yeah, I suppose. But the fact that they have to bring in a like cultural expert to to talk about it is all just another layer of this really sick fucking thing that Yoselin did. But it's just putting the whole family through this trial. You did it, right, But isn't that mostly isn't that most court cases like it's a show

to try you do the show to try to get away with stuff. I hate to bring up that Kyle rittenhouse thing, but you're like his mom took him to a in different state with a gun, like you know, like what more do you need? And then then then there's a show. There's a show, there's a show on all these cases. It's sorry, it's just sort of the way that the American media and I'm intal justice similar works that way. Rum but I don't understand how they don't crush some of the

show. What but with like A extra upsetting about this one though, is when you say that you're guilty of doing something or no, she said she was not guilty, so but but she also admitted to doing it, like she shouldn't have been allowed. I guess again, it gets so complicated. I was gonna say she shouldn't be allowed to say that I'm not guilty by

reason of insanity. But that's not fair either, because there are instances where somebody does commit a crime and they're insane at the time that it happens. But it's just a great line. It's just very complicated. How many people get away with being uh mentally insane, you know, and you get away with a horrible when you have that, like, nobody very rarely works. Yeah, so you know, at some and at some point, I hate to say it, just because you're mentally ill doesn't mean you do things.

I don't know why I hate to say that saying that. No, No, I hate to like, I don't want people being blamed because they're mentally ill, of course, I mean, that's that's it seems like such an excuse for the people that are not taking responsibility for what they did. Right, that's you just hit the nail on the head there, That's exactly right. It's the using it as a way to get out from the responsibility of

your actions. That's what's so disturbing about it, because, I mean it's been said a bazillion times on a lot of true crime shows just because you have mental illness doesn't mean you're going to commit some horrible crime. Nobody is suggesting that. It also seems like they kind of went with that mental illness because they said, well, what happened in her life? Has she ever

had any mental illness? And they said her sister died when she was young and they had to put her on antidepressants, And then they kind of ran with it from there. Yeah, which antidepressants doesn't mean you're mentally ill, it means you're depressed. Right, so yeah, and who you know, I'm pretty sure, you know, being that young, or anybody losing you know, somebody close from my spouse, a sister or brother, you know, is gonna be depressed. Nobody's gonna nobody's gonna go, oh well,

let's go to Disneyland now. Yeah. So and if they are, they're gonna end up on the show, right, That's right. And by the way, I'm I was very relieved to hear that nobody on the jury bought the insanity defense, and I was shocked. Usually there's one personal well you know, well, I don't think they did not say it was unanimous. You know, maybe it was, but it was that specific word. I

did not hear that. So who knows, we could be We could still be par for the course here and have one person she may she may have luck I was talking about a devil follower. Isn't that weird people that want to do jury duty. It is very strange. If you don't try to get out of jerry duty. I don't know if you should be allowed to be on the jury. I have the golden ticket now, and so do you. You work for a true crime show. You never had the new

jury duty again? Let me shoot these guns there? Yeah, not in the courthouse. I have for several years now. When I get called in for jury duty, which happened a couple of times, they will ask you like, what do you do? What's your career? And I'm always like, I'm a true crime podcast producer. Part of my job is to analyze cases. Thank you for your time, mister Bondelier. You may leave. Oh yeah, this episode wasn't that sad after all because we just found that

out first class. Oh my god, I had no idea use it. You're welcome. You're from Canada. You don't even get jury duty, do you? I get them in the mail, but I say I'm from Canada, even though even though I am becoming a citizen, I'm green cinted and I've not trying to become a citizen because of jury duty. I mean, nine times out of ten, you don't actually get put on a jury or anything. You just have to be there for the day, read a book, and then you're gonna go home. I don't I don't have that kind

of time, but twenty five hours a week. I definitely the last time that happened to me. I got put into like a juror pool room where they spent like two days going through jury selection. It was actually for a murder trial. I swear it was did you write down like maybe we should cover this one? No? Now, it was like, if I remember correctly, it was like a gang murder kind of a thing. So it was I didn't really fit the sword in scale theme so much, but I

totally played the card. And I also work for a show hosted by Mark Garigus, very famous defense attorney called a reasonable Doubt, and the attorney was like, I've worked with mister Garigus before. And the other attorney just saw that and was like, your excuse. It was great And if you don't mind, if you are listening to this show, I encourage you if you could call for jury duty, tell them listen to true crime podcasts, and if you text us on or send us a tweet that makes it even more

Yeah, and just tell them listen. I spent a lot of my time analyzing cases. I don't believe I can be impartial. I would think if I was in a room with people, I would be trying to explain to them my logic and reasoning, and I analyze case one sixty seven and gave my opinion. Yes, right through this set of tweets and the date on it. There you go. You're welcome. You're welcome everybody. What a great way to start the new year. Huh. I don't know why I

was hanging Happy Birthday, Happy New Years? Oh man? Hey, by the way, have you been to a birthday party since since the pandemic? I have outdoors very distance. Was there a cake? Uh? Yeah, I think there was no candles. No one's blowing. So I went out for dinner with some friends and they brought me a cake afterwards with a candle on it, Like, huh interesting. So I just pulled the candle out and turned out. Very smart of you like that. Nobody know there's a

pat Oh it's Orange County. Well, let's wrap this episode up here, now that we're smiling and celebrating your now that we're giggling, yosselin life in prison, no possibility of parole. Good, thank god. She should just be she should really, they should just finish the job on the throat that's what I think, but it's not up to me. Unfortunately, we do hear a clip of Mike reading her quote unquote apology. I hated it, which very quickly. Oh you know, do we play because I just don't

feels it. Seconds? Yeah, twenty seconds of it. Right. I'm very sorry for everything that happened. But I hope no one goes is this hers or Mike's. I hope that no one goes through what I have gone through. So many people wished me all the worst. My life is in the hands of God. I ask for a great deal of forgiveness from God, from Marina, from Kevin. I wish my family. I told my family I did not feel well. People are so mean me. Executio didn't

even bring up the victims. It's just I mean we I feel like there's been a few different categories of apologies that we hear on this show. Most of them are insincere, but very rarely are they ones where they just flat out ignore the fact that anyone other than them is being victimized in the scenario. I hope nobody else is ever laid for work. Basically, what you said, she said, nothing about what you did, right and again. I'm it was good to hear that the jury didn't buy any of the bullshit.

And like you said, the lawyer is up there. She kind of You kind of have to believe your client, not know how you do it. Yeah, it's tough when you're when you're out with garages the other day, ask the other day. So when you're with him again, ask him how he takes a if Kenny take a case that he doesn't believe them, how he does it? Well, if you look at his list of clients, I think you would agree problem a whole lot as soon as I said away, Hey, huh yeah, yeah, he makes a lot of money.

It's a very very nice guy to me. I will say that if my membre accused of murder, he's gonna be my guy. Oh man, God, that's for sure. Don't get accused of murder. Because I like doing their show. I like doing it too. And hey, listener, if you like listening to it, please subscribe, Please tell a friend, give us a nice rating, give us a nice review, interact with us. Feel free to send us a tweet. Be nice though, and we're catching up. We're catching up. Oh yeah, shows, we're gonna be

like neck and neck with the shows very soon, I think. So. I mean, we put out twice as many shows, let's be honest, and then, uh, you know, depending on the release schedule, maybe we won't be taking as many breaks. But we're gonna we're gonna catch right up. And I really enjoy when Mike comes in and discusses the cases with us because we get his feelings and knowledge that we won't ever get. And you guys get and get them too. So make sure you tell him Mike

to come back on this. Yeah, we'd love to have him back on. Mike, come back and see us. Ducky, come on, Mike, come on, Ducky, come play with us. Mike forever and ever and ever shining reference for you. I gotta pee, all right, you set him a bit, both of you. All right, guys, thank you all for listening. We'll be back very seeing with another episode. Follow Ian on Twitter at sir Ian Bag. I'm on Twitter at Matt Fondelier. We also host other shows. I have a show called The Watercooler I do

with my friends. Ian has a show several shows I got around the Bag. You can get that on YouTube, or you can get that on the wherever you get your podcast and listen to it. Three friends dropped by virtually, and they play a little game and one of them becomes my BFF by the end of it. The other has never heard from again. That was left down Nicold, Thanks you guys for listening. Happy New Year, New Year. Don't be a douchebag sort of scale. Reward is a production of

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