Sort Scale. Rewind is an after show, which means it's meant to be listening to after listening to Sword and Scale for your convenience. Each episode number of rewind corresponds to its counterpart on Sword and Scale. It's not that hard. People. Welcome to Sword and Scale rewind with your hosts Matt Fondelier and Ian Bag. Hey, what's up, everybody? Welcome back to Sword and
Scale Rewind. I'm one of your hosts, Matt Fondelier, and I am joined once again by comedian and host of the fifth most popular hockey podcast and all of us, Raila, Ian Bag. Welcome back. Hello, Matthew, Let's talk murder. Let's talk murder. This is episode one hundred and sixty two, And if you've never listened to this episode, you're not alone.
I have never heard this episode, and I'm very excited. Also, I know is there's murder and there's been a podcast about it that's correct, and we are gonna rate it and review it and love it and all of the above. Yeah. Um, now, this is another Dead Baby episode. What I know. Ian, You've just getting into this world of true crime, and so far, every episode you've listened to involved the dead another dead baby. I've tried to explain to you off microphone that there are other
episodes that don't involve dead. Isn't there one word? Guy just gets busted with pod. Yeah, it's one of the early episodes. Mike hadn't developed it yet. Pot crimes. This sky head put in his pocket will He tried to go through the security at the airport. Yes, mistakes were made, everybody's a sorry, and everything went well. Episode four. That's right,
it's a classical one. One of my all time favorites. This is a very interesting episode because it's very sad, but at the center of it is such a bizarre character who's kind of like the last episode we covered, he's kind of an asshole, and that makes elements of this story worth talking about. So it's not just going to be an hour long compression. Yeah, let me try to dive into what you miss And again, if if this is your first time listening to the show, you're welcome. I'm just
explaining it for you. So, at the center of the story, we have a husband and wife, Ryan Lawrence and his wife Morgan Lawrence, and they met while working at a t store in a shopping mall. I already want to kill somebody. Yeah, it's called the Destiny USA shopping Mall and it's in sort of like Central New York, New York state that is now. They were married pretty quickly after that, and then they had a baby girl who is known as Baby Maddox and a D D o x um.
But before the baby's first birthday, they discovered that one of her brown eyes was turning darker. And what it ended up meaning is that she had something called rhett no blastoma, which is a type of eye cancer. Again, hilarious stuff right right from fun fun times. So this baby is going to need chemotherapy, radiation, possible removal of the eye, of course, and they're working at the tea store. I'll just take it over from here.
They're working at the tea store. They don't have that kind of money, so they just sell her to this weird cult and they kill her. Yeah, So what happens, Well, Ryan the dad, in addition to working at the tea store, he also delivers pastries. He works at a gas station. But now they're just are these insane medical bills. Yeah, and there's a special cancer center that's in New York City and it's just a multi hour commute. They're growing back And I guess which they're going to? Which
cancer Sloan kettering. I think that's actually right. Yeah, okay, I used to do shows there, oh the cancer center. Yeah, I used to. It's funny. It's how I learned to not be afraid of people. It's I had all these people that were dying of cancer, and they had they had the medication with them, they'd hit the morphine, you know, because it became the pain became great. Wow. And I noticed that if you didn't face on treat them like humans, they were bored of you.
They wanted to be treated like a human. And I'm like, if these people want to be treated like a human, this is how I'm always going to treat my my crowds. So we don't we don't we don't go away from things? Yeah, go right at things. So you just started roasting them? Yeah? Absolutely, Yeah, I'm like, ever go waterskin? Yeah? I remember that wasn't one part. I remember the guys got the big thing? O you ever go water sking? Or is that thing
getting away? Like? I feel like people love that though they need to. They want to feel like a normal person. You want to be. You want to be recognized, You don't want to be just a shadow. Yeah, you know, and people can be ignored because it is too hard for the person to deal with what's going on with somebody else, which is crazy because the person's going on with it. So they need you to be
the pillar. Yeah, exactly, Well that's got off. We're can look out a little off course there, but now and that's it's all part of this conversation though, because at the beginning of this episode, I think the idea is to try to put you in the mind of this guy Ryan Lawrence to some deliveries. I got to work at a gas station. I'm at a T sor oh my god, that's right now. During this time, he also has his license suspended, so another delivering thousand dollars fee. Yeah,
no longer going to be able to deliver. It really sounds to me like he's the cooler like William H. Macy in that movie, Like just just everything is just stacking up against this guy. It's funny because when you said that, I'm just like, there's people that have that happened to them. Yeah, and they just can't get out from underneath the rock doesn't matter how hard they try. Right, So, right now, I don't feel like he's an asshole. I just feel like he is stuck. Yeah,
well prepared to have your opinion of the man changed. Okay, we got some good news and some bad news. Here's the good news to tell you if he murders him, I was definitely gonna Yeah. Good news is that baby Maddox is responding to Oh good. The cancer care is probably still going to have a long road ahead of her, but it kind of seemed like she's gonna be out to go, Maddie. But the bad news is that the family dog has gotten sick and he can't afford the vet for the euthanasia.
So he does what I found to be kind of despicable. Takes his dog out on a nature walk and then he strangles his dog. If you strangle something anything, you are a psychopath. Yes, So using your hands to kill something like, even though you want to put it out of its misery, Like, there's got to be a different way other than strangling something. That's exactly what I would think worse walk Ever, totally now, it's not really clear if he ever shares that information with you know, his wife.
You know, he may have just said that the dog ran away. I don't really know. I don't know, but the dog's name was Trooper, so definitely definitely a Maltese exactly. Um, so I should also say it's about to get a lot worse. Okay, great, yep, And Ryan Lawrence looks like mclovin from the Super Bad. So for people listening, if you google Ryan Lawrence trial, you can see this guy and he just
looks like an angry mclovin. He's got a super high pitched voice. And I'm gonna play a clip for you towards the end of this episode, kill that dog it. Honestly, he does not sound too far off from that. I was trying. I realised, Hey, you want to some tea? I have time. I gotta do some deliver make sure I get to the gas station. You know, you said you didn't listen to this episode, and and now I'm starting to think you live. I didn't. Is
that a great impression. Yeah, I'm so talented. So by all appearances, we know about the dog thing, but most people don't, and they just assume that he's just a loving, doting father. He takes the baby with him when he does the pastry deliveries. And where the action of this episode starts is his wife is starting a new job at the mall. And the idea is that picture yeah, sorry, there's coffee. Bean has moved in. Tea store is a thing of the past. Coffee is a new
rage. So the plan is they're gonna drop Morgan off at work. He's gonna take the baby with him for the day, and then at the end of the shift they come pick her up. But he's got no license, right and this time he does not have a license. So this is where it takes in gonna take a turn. So Morgan, the wife, she goes to work and she's expecting them to be there for her when her shift is over, but instead, what's that She's had a tough one. She's
been working at the kiosk. Yeah, exactly, Coffee stains all over the places that job. Instead, Ryan and the baby did not return. She got a series of texts saying that the cars in the parking lot. The keys are inside the car. He also apparently sent her an eight minute video saying I can't do this anymore. I want you to have the life that you deserve. I'm taking the baby with me. That video was never released to the public, so it's not clear exactly what he said, but all
those texts about the keys being in the car all verifiable. Most of the story in this episode is being told by the grandpa, who is his daughter, is the wife, And so I'm going to play a clip just because he's This audio is from his impact statement in court where he's talking about kind of how his life has changed since all these events have happened. So he's kind of speaking from the point of view of somebody who's already experienced the tragedy
that's going to unfold. But I just want to play this clip because he is an incredibly emotional storyteller and this moment, this is about a minute long of him just talking about the fear that the family was feeling when they just had a series of texts in a car in the parking lot. I don't know what's going on. Our Nightmare hit series, we sat together waiting and
wondering where Max was, how Urning could do this power. After hour, we just waited, continually answering questions from police while Morgan replayed the events of the night to each new officer she had waiting with Morgan and seeing her grief was god runching. The thoughts that ran through my mind stifling. So my Defensio's granddaughter is twenty one month old baby who was now in an unfamiliar place. I had questions, was she with strangers, how was it being treated,
was she seeing? How scared was she? And then I just wanted her back in my arms. I wanted her regrated with her mother. I wanted her to feel safe and loved again. I wanted her home. I was confused and scared that I might never see my granddaughter again. Reactions. He sounds younger than I thought he was going to sound. Yeah, Grandpa is misleading. Yeah, I don't tell you about a fam I want here
to take the dog out for a walk. But he sounds younger. He sounds terrified, you know, and all those questions that are going through his head are fine. But you'd be like, be like I would be like, what is he doing? Not where she had like why is he doing this? That's that was a little bit weird to me, because I'd have why why is he doing this? It's you know, we got to get
the baby back. We'll take care of the baby. We're not worried about my daughter having the you know, lengthen text messas the life she deserved. Whatever, Well, we'll get her job at Applebee. She'll meet a fine young man there. Yeah. Right, so it's it's weird. It's weird so far. But Dad, from the conversation, they don't sound like they have money, do they. That's a good point it I would imagine either.
I do know that they had to do like a go fund me at some point to try to help raise some funds for Okay, but even if they have money, if you suddenly are dealing with cancer patient, I feel like that being accounts getting right, Yeah, the bank account, but they would probably have medical if they had money. Um, and just what the daughter's doing and the what the other the murderer his jobs are? Do you think I will say this about the murderer. He's not lazy. He's got
three jobs. Yeah, that's that's that's something. Yeah, if you, if you had a daughter, you'd want for your for the a guy that's gonna put the effort out. But then maybe got over his skis a little too far and lefty. I can't I can't work but I don't know that the story is maybe he was just a well, it's a little bit of
all the above. Um. The grandpa does state that before all these events happened, there was a conversation that he had in the car with Ryan sort of talking about this responsibility of having a family, and the grandpa really misjudged this guy because he really felt that Ryan was being honest about doing the right thing and trying to like make a great family. So a lot of what he says later in the episode is about just being deceived by this guy.
Um. So, after uh an amber alert is issued, they have the mom go on to like a really sad like if anyone has any information, you know, right, because he doesn't have a car, right right, They just have no idea where he is or where anybody is. But then sixty hours later there's a nine one one call. Now his picture has been posted all over the city. Everybody's looking for him, and the person who
called nine one one said that someone matching his description has been seen. But this guy was wearing a disguise, a wig, a baseball hat, sunglasses, camo pants, plastic grocery bags over his boots. People actually thought he was homeless. He was carrying like a big comforter blanket and he smelled like a campfire, so people just assumed that he was a homeless guy. This
is to me one of the most bizarre parts of this entire story. So the police come to this guy and he says that his name is our Low Rivers. They ask him for his birthday. He gives his actual birthday, so they look up Arlow Rivers find that there's nobody with that ridiculous name, first of all, and second of all, nobody with that ridiculous name born on September twelfth or whatever. But Ryan Lawrence was born on September twelfth,
and this is the guy that everybody's been looking for. So, like a scene straight out of a movie, they ask him to take his hat off, and then his wig falls off, and his exact words were, you got me. My god, it all right. So that's just he had got me, you got me? I would it leaves that all right? No idea, I was wearing a wig. Now you got me, you got me. That's his exact quote. Oh Arlow, I want to know
where he came up with that name. Also, in his possession camping gear a handcuff key a book called one hundred Deadly Skills, which was written by a retired Navy seal. But there's still no baby, and the reason he smells like a fire, that's absolutely right. Sadly, when he's questioned by police, he tells them, actually, kind of what you predicted early on. He says that he gave the baby to his friends, to Chris and Taylor, and now everybody's out of the country safe, So you're a weird
cult theory. There's a thread there, But it turns out those are not real, fake right, totally fake. The detectives were taking him to all these different sites throughout the day where he had said he had been for the last sixty hours, and sixty hours is how many days, twenty four times
two forty eight and a half days, two and a half days. Eventually, the detectives kind of build a rapport with him and they keep asking him about Chris and Taylor, and he finally comes clean and says that that's not really a true story, and he tells the detectives, you're not going to look at me the same way once I tell you what I did with the body, And that, of course is another dramatic cliffhanger in the episode. Now we do get the reveal of what happened, but we don't know why
it happened. So one of the really sad parts here is that police divers find the remains of baby Maddox tied to a cinder block and left like in the river. Now, there's a clip that I want to play. There's this news reporter that's been covering this breaking story throughout the entire day, and there's a moment, it's right at the very beginning of this clip where I just felt like the humanity of this news reporter really comes through in this.
The quote, the phrase is right at the top where he just says, it's a rotten day. It's a rotten day here in Syracuse, New York. So I just want to hear that he talks a little bit about kind of how the community was really hoping there would be a happy ending to the story but didn't turn out that way, and what a rotten day here in
Syracuse. We have just learned from Syracuse Police that a body that is believed to be twenty one month old, the Maddox Lawrence, has been pulled from the Inner Harbor where we have been reporting all morning long, where we have been where members of the community have turned out, some of them with their children, concerned mothers, hoping against hope that this would end a different way,
but it is just not. So let's take you down to the Inner Harbor, just along the creek walk, this place that brings so many people in central New York Joy, one of the absolute best places to walk your dog or just take a walk with a friend and catch up. We'll now be etched in people's minds as the place where the body of this little girl was found. Pretty pretty fucked out, to say the least. Now we learn at this point that the last question, oh, of course, So
do we hear him talking to the police? Now, okay, because I want to I want to know if you could feel any guilt. You can't. You can't get that audio. Um, it's really was just sort of
conversation between this detective and the killer. So the only way to really hear that part of the story is to hear the detective tell it, because he kind of talks about well, first he said this, and then the detective thing he's got guilt or he's just like, yeah, you got me Oh my god, I feel bad because I shouldn't have done that, but I, you know, really wanted to do it too. Despite the joke of a line of you got me, it does sound like he has some legit
guilt and remorse for what he did. Okay, so this is different from from most of these stories because most of these people I don't have any guilt about this murder. That is. That is true and part of the big kind of I don't know if it's really a twist in this episode, but the final reveal we'll get into is really the why, like why this all happened. I thought it was very interesting. I'm pretty excited about it. But before that, before that, there are actually two different rhyme scenes that
are being investigated. One is the river walk where the baby was found. Was a mother good looking, she's pretty cute, cool? Yeah, she was pretty cute. Um, she definitely could have done better than a super bad mcloup. Well what do you describe? I'm like, I wonder what you look like? You know? Yeah, Well, here's the thing, Like all the pictures of her or the videos of her, is she's so sad because her baby's gone and her whole life has fallen apart sexually sad woman.
Yeah, so it's a little weird to be like, oh yeah, she was hot, but it's like, yeah, yeah, it's it is pretty. It's pretty sad. But I could see And if you guys are saying at home, you guys are having way too much fun. We gotta have fun. It's gotta be fun. Yeah, so stupid. Yeah, yeah, I've said on this show many times, this is a defense mechanism. We're laughing about it because you don't want to just hear us crying. Yeah, that's not really a good part if you If you do, there's
the opposite of laughters crying. So we're gonna laugh. So there's two crime scenes, like I mentioned, One is the River Bad and the other is this place out in the woods where he had great crime scenes. Yes, he had taken authorities there a little earlier in the day and they found basically the remnants of a camp fire, and as you alluded to earlier, they did drop the hint of him smelling like a camp fire when he got picked up. But we've learned at this point that basically he took his baby out
to the woods. He struck her in the head with a wooden baseball bat and then burned the baby, burned the bat, you know, dumping oil on the fire, and just kind of let it burn out overnight. And then he scooped up the remains, put it into a container, tied it to a cinder block, and then drove twenty minutes north to where he threw it in the waters. And then he took the car and dropped it off at the mall. That's when he dropped it out of the mull. So
he did this all while she was at work, that's right. And we do also learn he does say that he took the baby to that location the day before, but he couldn't go through with it, which I thought was good for him for now. He also he's no quitters, that's true. Man works three jobs for christing Um certainly after this um. He also apparently had spray paint that he was going to use to change the color of his skin. And he had this whole pook of that neon man that's not suspicious
at all. Let a safety cone. What a weird colored man. Yeah, So his plan was that he was going to make it look like he and the baby had run away and then he was going to commit suicide. Now stay with me for a minute here, because again this gets a little a little weird, But this is just how this guy's mind works. He wanted to commit suicide somewhere along the Ohio River, and he hoped that his body would make its way to the Caribbean, which is where his mother's ashes
were dispersed. So where to go make loving? Yeah. In court, Ryan gives a huge apology to all the family members, saying that he doesn't expect forgiveness. You're goddamn right, you don't. It is a legitimate, heartfelt, sad monologue, which really does not happen a lot in these cases. Like you pointed out, can I can I and I push it out. If you're gonna I'm gonna bring it up again. I've done. This is my second show, and I'm want to say it right now. If
you're gonna kill yourself, just kill it. Please, just don't bring other people and just do it. I know, and there's somebody who go out there can complaint, but no, if you're planning on killing other people and yourself, just do yourself. Yes, there we go. Well, here's the thing were respect. He gets sentenced to twenty five years to life, which means that on his fiftieth birthday, which will be in two thousty one, Jesus, he will appear before a parole board and he might be let
might be let back out. Now we mentioned earlier the wife in this story. I want to play a clip of her begging the court to not let him out of prison. Okay, as there's all the rise actions I need for him to spend for rest of his lifetime in prison. I fear for my safety and fear for the still girl histec in the community. He's a safe everyone flayed he's and he's been trying all of us for his actions.
He's carried that unbelievable when he wants nidulous situation in his favor before parole would par five years from now, he may see a remorseful he may vague to be released to make av changeful. He's a monster. Should I truly don't believe you don't kill a go getting a chance. Don't give him a chance. This He is the most horrible thing I've ever endured in my life. I want you to know you will not Da and my daughter in my whole
life. You told me therefore, you don't deserve another chance of your own. So I got a couple of questions. Please she does Were they having problems? Well, I was going to move into a segment that I like to call what's my trauma? And I was going to give you three choices and you can decide what you think was the actual trauma. One of those three was did he have some marital problems think that his wife was having an affair and didn't know what to do with it. Was he abused as a
child, unable to play his favorite sport of baseball? Or was he sad that his mommy died? Oh? I would have If it's those three, I'd say probably number one because of him wanting her to have the life that she deserved. A great guess, but it's incorrect, son of a bitch. This kid deserves to die. The correct answer is that Ryan was sad that his mommy died. So, but it doesn't make sense. It's a douche move. I'm gonna I'm gonna go visit my mom, but I'm gonna
take my kid with me. Right, Oh, I decided I'm not going just sending the kid. Well, here's where we get you're laughing because this is crazy. It SIPs absolutely insane. This is truly the biggest batch crazy part of the whole story. So, after he was arrested, similar to another episode that we covered, a reporter was granted the rights to a prison interview, and it is creepy as fuck. Here we go. Now. I mentioned not too long ago that Ryan wanted his own dead body to drift
to where his mother's ashes were scattered. Right well, because that's gonna happen. Jesus Christ, you know anything about tidal waves and tides. Come on, man, I do want to think about a beaver. Damn, you're not gonna get You're gonna be stuck. You never think about the beavers. You have everything all charted out, and then there's an unexpected damn just shows
up and ruins everything. So Ryan tells this reporter that a week before he kidnapped and murdered his baby, he started to hear the voice of his dead mother in his head. I was telling him that he should give baby Maddox to her so that she could help solve his family's problems. Ryan, bring me the baby so you can live longer. Right now. Ironically, his mother was a social worker who spent most of her life helping victims of violent
crimes. And she did that because her brother was murdered back in the nineties. Wow, So I don't really think there's a vengeful mother ghost that's really telling him to do this. We also learned that when when Ryan's parents got divorced, he reacted to that loss by hurting himself. He's a cutter. He's a cutter, and he'd you know, burn his skin with metal and other objects. When his mother died, he burned a heart onto his chest
with incense. And then on what would have been his mother's fifty ninth birthday, that's when he kidnapped and murdered his daughter, who was like, yeah, the daughter was named after his mother, which makes it even weirderdie pretty crazy, right, And in prison he apparently burned his zodiac symbol into his hand, and he burns his leg with heated broken bottles. I'm sure in prison he should be just getting punched in the face every day. Right.
They don't like baby killers in prison, They certainly don't. And I've teased it now. I'm not going to play you a clip. This is from the prison interview You're going to hear Ryan talking about why he did what he did, and the reporter asks some pretty pointed questions as well, I'm not this monster that people try to portray me to be on the media. What I did was horrible, What I did was wrong, What I did was unfair. What I did was illegal. Yeah, and evil. But it
wasn't me. It wasn't me. It wasn't it was this storm. It was this madness that it was taking over. You couldn't just be evil that come to you. I don't think so, because what I was trying to do was not evil. I wasn't trying to hurt anybody. I was trying to save Max. I was trying to save my life. I was trying to save my family from from hurtain strong ever and the most selfish act I've ever done. I thought irrationally that it was going to be the most selfless
thing I would ever do. And you realize how crazy that sounds. I mean, yes, yeah, it sounds crazy. Yeah, And it sounds like he's just he's an idiot. And also he sounds like mcloven with a higher word. Later, I was like, he's got the same kind of lisp going on. I'm telling you, dude, Oh man, that's crazy. Um, I don't know, man, It's just he must be getting beaten every day in prison, right, I mean I imagine that he is, like you said, they don't like baby killers in prison, and he's
just that voice that look. I mean, he really it's just not a good situation for him, but he fucking deserves it. Absolutely, Yeah, absolutely, I just don't it doesn't. I don't. Did you say he was an asshole of a person to her? Would like to like, what's their relationship bad? Or was he actually a loving guy? You know?
From all accounts, it would seem that he was a loving guy. I'm imagining that he definitely had to have had some major issues kind of going into all this, Like like we said, we learned when he was younger, he had all this trauma from his family splitting up, So he's probably not
a well balanced guy. I would have liked to have heard from the wife when she gave that speech, like I loved you and you trade or you you fooled me the whole time, you know, you'd like, I would never suspected that you would do anything like this from the way you treated me, or I would have. I should. It's my fault. Yeah, But you know, there aren't like a lot of these stories you hear about all of the domestic violence that led up to this, like there's none of
that in this case. It really that's part of what makes this such a strange episode or a strange case, is that it just seemed like he snapped, like he suddenly was. It happens. It does. I don't want to do, but it happens. It does. And you know the bottom
line is that Ryan had all of these resources to help him. You can hear from like the grandpa stuff, like there was a close family unit, and so the idea that Ryan decided that it would be up to him when his daughter would die, instead of she's gonna have a tough life, but she's gonna still have a life, right, And so not to end it on such a depressing note, I should say that there's also a memorial bench alongside the riverwalk where the baby was found, and you know, it was
a crime that impacted the entire community, and even years later, there's still like an active Facebook group of people like just from the community trying to show support, and like every year they you know, pay tribute to this baby. So there's a little bit of humanity that comes out of it. But what a piece of shit, What a piece of I wish. Yeah,
it's weird how it can bring people together. Yeah, I know. And that poor girl, I don't know how she's how the mother's doing, you know, why she moved on and had kids with somebody else, or or didn't ever want to have kids again, or didn't even became a lesbian. You know who knows? You know. Um, it's just it's just I'm glad they caught him because there was a way he probably could have got away. But it sounds like he's kind of dumb. Yeah, I think so.
But Neon Spring ain't was really very a stand out for sure. I just don't. I don't get the whole I'm going to jump in the river and I like, yeah, I don't. Yeah, it's when it starts to border on like crazy person. Yeah, and you're just you're just wondering, well, was he crazy at any of these jobs or is he just another guy that just this kind of went out And it is sad, but yeah, gives us something to talk about. Therefore, thank you, Maddie.
Yes, I hope terrible. It's terrible. It's absolutely terrible. But oh you gotta laugh. That's right. I hope I was able to impart the story well enough for you, you made and just he just yeah, I paint pictures with my words. You did, and I just see that neon man walking down the street and it was fan right. Well, thanks everybody for listening. We'll be back with another episode in due time. And until next time, don't be a douchebag, don't be a douchebag, don't
murder people sort of scale. Rewad is a production of Incongruity Media. If you enjoyed the show, leave us a five star rating at a glowing review. No criticism please, it hurts our feelings. Be sure to tell your friends about us, but not your family or co workers because they'll think you're weird. Okay, that's it. Until next time, don't be a douchebag. The Departed to Bedpended, the Intendenden, the us