This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on the BNF podcast. Today we have an interview recorded at bnaf's New York summit. Helena Matsa spent the last decade working at the Department of State in the US across multiple roles, having previously served as the Director of Energy Transformation at the Bureau of Energy Resources and Director of Climate Diplomacy and Energy Transformation at the National Security Council.
She was appointed Special Presidential Coordinator for the Partnership on Global Infrastructure Investment in January of this year. BNF editor Kamala Shelling sat down with Helena for a chat, and together they discussed Helena's experience as a diplomat and some of the geopolitical challenges she and the US government have to face. They also went through the Partnership for Global
Infrastructure Investment and its aims and goals. Additionally, they discussed US foreign policy and its support of foreign nations and companies through strategic investment. If you like this podcast, make sure to subscribe to receive updates on future episodisodes, and if you're listening to us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify,
consider giving us a review. For more information about bnf' summits, as well as previously recorded videos from the New York Summit or agendas for upcoming summits, head to about dot BNAF dot com Forward slash Summit. And now let's hear Kamala's chat with Helena.
You have had a career throughout the State Department. You've been a negotiator, you've been a strategist. Tell me about your career and how you got to where you are now.
Thank you so much for that question. I always, when I'm talking to folks try to remind them that while your career sounds like it's a linear, well thought out line, often your story is getting written as it's happening. And so I found my way to the State Department after studying international affairs, spending some time living overseas, and I
came on board to be the Department Sustainability Advisor. So I was actually going around with a small team figuring out how to actually make our own embassy operations more efficient, so doing smart metering, buying clean power where we could demonstrating the best in US technology at our embassies around the world. And through that I learned a lot and was really interested in spending more time in the policy area and came and joined our Clean Energy team at
the State Department. From there, it's just been a long, winding but exciting road of opportunities. So having a chance to join our climate negotiation team as we were closing the Pairs rule book leading up to Kadaviza, Poland, and then beginning this administration at the White House as our
Director for Climate Diplomacy and Energy Transformation. When I came back to State Department and was asked to run the Clean Energy team, I was able to bring together a lot of different experience and start working on some of those really exciting and challenging issues around clean energy supply chains, which ultimately led me to my current position working for the Partnership for Global Infrastructure and Investment.
In a negotiator's position or in the position as a diplomat, what would you say are some of the top challenges that you are facing. You know, we BNF tend to focus on the science side, but from a geopolitical angle, what do you think are the real challenges that you're trying to grapple with.
Sure, it's a great question, and sometimes it's a little bit different in the negotiating room versut when we're out there in the field trying to get projects off the ground. But ultimately the spirit is the same. You know, around these issues, especially deploying clean energy and meeting our climate goals, there is always a tension that you need to work through, especially as these need to be elevated as national security
priorities at the same time. And so I find in the negotiating room the key is really building alliances, finding areas of common interests, which sounds very obvious but can be quite complicated. As countries are experiencing really different effects of climate change, they've had different roles in getting us
into the situation we're in. We're all coming at the issue, even though it's a shared global challenge with a different set of resources, and so I think the trick in the negotiating room is figuring out how you bring that together and come to a common solution that gives enough space to be able to implement in the real world. And now where I sit actually figuring out what types of projects and interventions make sense in the real world
that have a really good bang for their buck. Since we know that we're always operating with limited public dollars. We're trying to bring the private sector along with us, and of course we want to answer the development needs of the countries we work in in a very ever evolving foreign policy space.
So tell me about where you're sitting now.
Yeah. So in the last few months, I was able to take on a new position as the Deputy Special Coordinator for the Partnership for Global Infrastructure Investment. And this is a really exciting initiative that our President launched last year in partnership with the G seven countries, for US collectively and as individual countries to offer better value alternatives
for structure of investment around the world. When we're talking about the geopolitics of the energy transformation, or really just the geopolitics of the moment we find ourselves in right now, there's really two intersecting revolutions that are happening. One in tech where the world is becoming faster and smaller and more connected, and one in climate and energy, as the clean energy transition shapes the very fundamentals of energy systems
and food security around the world. And that is a big reason why we're leading with a Partnership for Global Infrastructure Investment.
Let's get a little more concrete. There is there an example of a project that you've worked on as part of the partnership that you think really exemplifies what this partnership can do and what it can accomplish.
I think there are several, and we're actually getting ready to announce some of our new flagship projects on the margins of the G seven that the President will be able to share in just a couple weeks. So I will not scoop our own president, but I'll share an example that our Vice president actually announced just a few
weeks ago when she was visiting Africa and Tanzania. We have been working with the company or a couple companies that are investing in a special economic zone in the country to help bring cleaner nickel processing as a hub, a value added opportunity for the Tanzanian people to actually take advantage of being able to develop their own commodities, in this case nickel, but hopefully over time rare earths
and others. The same time, we're helping facilitate some of those connection points with a couple new producing assets and trying to ensure that we're supporting companies coming in to develop those in a way that's considerate of land and labor and environmental stewardship. And at the same time, this is a huge priority for the President of Tanzania as she's embarking on trying to attract investment or our country. So it's one of the ways we marry our development
priorities with our commercial opportunities. And then of course we're excited to see that cleaner battery grade nickel over time entering the global market, which is of extreme interests the US and so many of our partners and allies.
So you mentioned nickel, you mentioned critical minerals. This is obviously tremendously important for the US right now and for the world as a whole, both for our electronics and for the energy transition. But mineral mining has so often come with tremendous environmental degradation and often human rights abuses
as well. Do you think it's important to take that into account as you're developing these projects and try to make sure that the mining processes are environmentally friendly and to minimize human rights violations as much as possible.
Of course, I mean, I think that's why you know, every time I have a conversation like this, I start off with a version of a joke of like, did you ever think a climbate negotiator will find their way into the bottom of an open pit mine? I certainly
did not. But it's for all those reasons we have made so much progress, especially in our own country, our president moving forward with such impactful legislation, whether it's a Biparson Infrastructure Law or Chips Act, and of course the IRA, which I'm sure you'll have many podcasters talking about over the next several months. To be able to realize those goals, be able to deploy clean energy at scale, there's going to be an exponential demand on many of these core materials.
And if we aren't thinking right now, how do we mind those or recycle those from existing tailings that take advantage of new innovation that much of which is being developed here in the US. And we're not thinking about ensuring that there is not force labor and child labor, and that in communities where mining is happening, that those communities are served with better healthcare, with schools, with lights being able to be turned on, then we're not solving
the problem. We're just shifting the problem. And I think that this administration is taking that really seriously and ensuring that we're thinking all the way upstream while we're so excited to deploy, and I can take a lot of creditor. I could say, my colleagues in the US government could take a lot of credit for some amazing new renewable energy projects that PGII has been delivering along with our other sectors, which I hope to talk a little bit about as well. We have to be there at the
mind sight. We have to be thinking about processing not only but very importantly for the safety and well being in transparency of these supply chains, but also to ensure that people that live in the countries where these materials are, including in our own, are able to realize the full benefits of those critical minerals.
Everybody needs access to them. The global demand, nif estimates, is going to quintuple by the end of the decade. US demand is going to go up. Global demand is going to go up. Do you find that there's a tension between making sure that we are going to have enough of the products we need as opposed to other countries who also have to decarbonize. Is that part of the consideration when you're developing.
These projects in this case, because that demand is so great. We know a couple things. One, we know we need to invest at home, and there's so much work that's happening through the legislation that I mentioned already, and all of the new authorities and capabilities given to the Department of Energy and other parts of our administration to give grants to help move forward new lithium production for example, and thinking through new ways to do processing. And we'll
do a lot here at home. But the truth is this demand is so great it is one of the perfect places for diplomacy to come in because we can't do this without partners. We can't do it, they can't do it, and the world needs to see the capabilities be able to serve this demand. Additionally, I think we've learned a lot in the last several years about what really takes have resilient supply chains and the redundancies you need, and the capabilities to open up markets in a meaningful way.
And so this is I don't want to say a rare occasion, because, like I said, as a trained diplomat, I think almost all occasions lend themselves to being able to work with partners around the world. But I think this one is really uniquely situated, and we're not going to do anyone any favors. If we just secure our supply for our market, that of course is our top priority. That is what we will do, what we need to do, and we're deeply committed to the clean energy revolution here
at home. But we want to see evs deploy all around the world. We want to see the rest of the world electrify and actually have access to power. This is how we meet our climate goals. And if we learned anything, that's just something that one we really truly can't do on its own.
So let's talk a little bit more about diplomacy and countries coming together to try to solve what is of course a global problem. After COP twenty six in Glasgow, there seemed to be a real feeling of breakthrough. We as a global community had accomplished something and made a big step forward in the fight against climate change. After COP twenty seven last year, the feeling seemed to be a lot more mixed. So where do you think we now stand as a global community in this fight against
climate change? And what do you, as a negotiator think needs to happen next? Sure, and I should caveat. I am no longer a negotiator. Now I have the opportunity
to run these other initiatives. But I was very lucky to have the opportunity to negotiate on behalf of the US during a pretty pivotal moment in US realizing our goals and making the Paaris Agreement real and codifying those and now we're going into the COP and the UAE where we're having our first global stock take, and all along the way, the IPCC is doing its job releasing the reports to really demonstrate where we need to do more work right to bring down our emissions in a
way that's going to meaningfully keep us on track with our climate ambition. So going up to the COP in Glasgow,
it was a particularly exciting time for me. I was honored to be able to be the person at the White House, a part of a very small team that was preparing our President and others to participate in the conversations in Glasgow, of course, working very closely with our Special Presidential Envoy for Climate, John Kerry's team, And that was a really exciting year for lots of reasons, but for the US especially, we were demonstrating that we were
back that we were going to bring ambition forward. We released incredibly ambitious NDC and work to bring the world along, not just us leading that charge, but many others to make sure that we're making the commitments that we need to. That's a very energizing space to be in, and I think that what happens after a moment like that is that we all have to take a collective breath. And I think that's what's been happening, figuring out how we
actually now realize and implement. And so that's a couple different pieces. I think we saw the private sector and the financial community really come together and make ambitious targets and commitments, both in partnership with governments and on their own. I think we've seen interesting and exciting breakthroughs in technology, and we've seen now a need to figure out how
we bring that all together. And so it's only natural and I'm always the optimist that the enthusiasm feels different when you're doing the rallying charge right, and now we have to figure out how to make it all work. That's part of the reason why I think the partnership with global infrastructure investment is so important, because not only are we trying to think about opportunities for countries around the world to deploy renewables and to reform their digital
sectors and put forward new healthcare facilities and opportunities. We're thinking about doing all of that in the lowest emission, most resilient way that we possibly can. And so we're trying to show up not only about what we're doing in our own economy, but as part of the global community.
And we're not doing it alone. We have the G seven by our side, we have many other countries by our side, and that's going to take some time, and so we might not be able to see the results of that this year next year, but I really deeply believe we're laying that foundation, and as we go into this next COP I think they'll be another significant call to action, especially when we have an opportunity to really kind of see where we can find other areas for
improvement when we look where we're at collectively together. So I'm curious the IRA the Inflation Reduction Act, which was pasted last August, is obviously a landmark piece of climate legislation for the US, but it's been criticized by some of our traditional allies for making them less competitive in the global space. How would you respond to that? Is there a way to shore up our own needs and our supply chains without leaving our allies out in the cold?
I mean, I think that's exactly why PGII exist, as well as some of our other important diplomatic partnerships, ones that have been around for a long time, and then new ones that are being conceived in real time as well. And so I think that in the broader scheme of things, it was time for the US to legislate to demonstrate no matter where we are in our foreign policy as time goes on, we have made that commitment. We have jumped across that precipice at home, and we are putting
forward the incentives and commitment to pushing this transformation forward. Ultimately, that sets the wheels spinning for so much more to happen in the world. And we're seeing other countries and other groups of countries making their own versions of similar commitments.
And you know, the Europeans are figuring out in real time how they're thinking about their own critical mineral materials work through that new Act that they put forward, as well as what they're doing on the battery Alliance, and there's room for all of these efforts to live together as long as we keep coordinating, as long as we
keep our discussions open. I think we're all generally looking at the same north star, which is to decarbonize, to grower economies, and to ensure that we're not leaving others behind.
On the White House's website for the Partnership for Global Infrastructure and Investment, they mentioned that the G seven has mobilized six hundred billion dollars, of which two hundred billion is coming from the US. And then there's a line that says, this six hundred billion is only the beginning. So what do you think is going to happen next?
Yeah, let me also add, we're giving ourselves five years to hit that target.
We are giving ourselves five years to hit that target. That is an important note to make.
Yeah, but of course it is only the beginning. Once we're able to actually prove that how we're working through PGII, which is not only across multiple sectors, not only in innovative ways, but to really create quarters of economic success, we will continue to bring the private sector along with us. And so what I think is really special about this initiative. How it's being implemented across the G seven is that we're saying, this is just public dollars. We're going to
put our public dollars in thoughtful, strategic places. We're going to spend the time with the leaders of the countries that are trying to reform their sectors to attract investment and really work through those enabling environment, those regulatory issues, and bring the private sector behind us. Working to bring
the financial institutions along. And I know that might sound like a very overally optimistic view, but if you spend time with all of the financiers that are figuring out where and how to spend their dollars, it's naturally going to be absorbed. In the US and the OECD governments do need to do that extra step to demonstrate that there is project pipeline, there is opportunity that will stand behind in de risk and so I deeply believe it
is the beginning. We have work to do. I think that we have to definitely spend these next few years demonstrating the success of this theory of the case. But we're seeing so much change already as an administration. So far, we've spent a good deal of time, more time than we had in the past, really showing up on the continent of Africa. And by no means am I saying that's efficient, just saying that we really started putting in that effort in that time and working with leaders across
the continent, and it's paying off. I hope they feel for them, and I can see us finding new opportunities to really move the ball there and around the world, and so I definitely hope this is only the beginning.
And I have a final question about the PGII, which is that there's been a long standing tension between climate adaptation and climate mitigation, and the US has long been on the side of climate mitigation, which is to say, let's decarbonize as much as possible, it's halt climate change. On the other side is climate adaptation, which says, you know what, climate change is happening, It's going to have some huge effects on the globe. How do we protect
ourselves against those forthcoming effects. So, now you're working on a project that is focused on infrastructure and developing economies, do you ever find that there is this tension between adaptation and mitigation in these projects? Do you have to try to balance it and where do you come down on that side when you're deciding what to fund.
Yeah, this is one of the situations where I am relieved that I don't have the hard task of being a climate negotiator on any side of this issue right now, as we're sorting out what's really next for adaptation as a means for addressing what we know are going to be impacts of climate change that are going to happen, and we have to prepare ourselves and other economies for those. But the how is tricky and that will be kind of sorted out in the negotiating rooms over the next
few years. Where we sit as we're thinking about how we deploy dollars, how we look at projects that exemplify the principles that we're trying to emulate. I think that there really isn't attention, and I'll tell you why. First and foremost, when you're thinking about infrastructure, you have to think about it from both angles. So, if we're thinking about how we de carbonize economies and actually give them
a support access that is clean energy. However, when you're thinking about citing clean energy projects or new types of investments, whether it's in the tublecommunications space, or the healthcare space, or in the agricultural space. You need to think about how that's deployed in a way that's climate resilient, that works in those economies, that it will last as an investment that is bankable, because once again, at the end of the days, the public finance can do a lot,
but it can't do the whole thing. And that's a big part of the reason why over the last several months we've incorporated agriculture, which I'm not saying is inherently climate resilience, but definitely is a place where you think through how to mitigate the challenges of climate change, but also to adapt to the fact that in many of these parts of the world we're seeing different rain patterns,
different water patterns. To come in and think of new investment in a moment like that, that's building in an understanding of what's happening, I hope is part of how we're demonstrating that we're really trying to show up with a climate agenda, but an investment agenda as well.
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