Hi, I'm Dana Perkins and you're listening to Bloomberg Switched on the b n F podcast. Now. You might have noticed that over the last couple of weeks we've put out a few podcasts that deviate from our typical format. Instead of interviewing bienn F analysts, we've interviewed some prominent external voices that participated in our recently held BANEF London Summit.
We currently have six of these summits worldwide and they convene leaders in energy industry, transport, technology, finance and government. My colleague Brianny Collins, who's a part of BANFS editorial team, had the opportunity to interview Glenn Leewlin and he's a general manager and the electrification chief Technology Officer at air Bus. So maybe you think zero emissions air travel is the substance of dreams or something far off in the future
that only the Jetsons would have. Well, today's interview with Glenn might convince you that it's all coming sooner than you think, just one decade away. In the twenty etees quick reminder to everybody that does not provide investment or strategy advice, and we have a more complete disclaimer that will play at the end of today's show, But for right now, let's hear Briany's interview with Glenn Louivin. Hi. Glenn,
thanks very much for joining us today. So ab US is Europe's largest supplier of commercial and military aircraft, so you must have a great outlook into the various technologies available to reduce emissions from flight. As things stand, how do you see the pathway to zero emissions flight panning out? On the one September we revealed three concept aircraft which really explain our ambition to bring a zero emission airliner to commercial service by twenty We have a few steps
to take before we get there. First, we have some technology which we need to develop, we have some flight demonstration to do, and we plan to have achieved all of that by in the same time frame. We need also to be working with partners inside the industry and also outside the industry, like energy suppliers, hydrogen supply companies, airports developing the hydrogen infrastructure, the hydrogen ecosystem in order to prepare for hydrogen to be available for the zero
emission aircraft in the twenty thirties timeframe. That's really interesting thank you very much. So do you see fully electric flight being viable for commercial aircraft or other options such as hydrogen or hybrid electric more realistic. I think fully electric battery flight is very appropriate for small aircraft for general aviation, for two to four seed vertical takeoff and
landing applications, So helicopters are helicopter replacements. So definitely batteries and fully electric architectures around batteries have their place in aviation. As soon as we start to go to larger aircraft, we see hybrid electric starting to be interesting. And if we really think about having zero emission large commercial aircraft, we really need to change the energy carrier to something much lighter than than batteries, and this is where hydrogen
starts to get interesting. Hydrogen is also interesting because it's essentially a surrogate for renewable energy on board the aircraft. So there's increasing talk about green hydrogen generated from renewable energy. But what needs to happen in the hydrogen value chain to make this possible to use on board large aircraft in the future. So we see already massive increases in the amount of renewable energy that we're producing across the world.
For example, wind energy production has multiplied by two over the last five years, Solar energy production has multiplied by four over the last five years. For sure, in absolute terms, it's not enough yet we needed to continue progressing in that same direction. We can see the growth going exponential, we can see the costs coming down and making sure that they compete with alternative ways of producing energy, but
that for sure needs to continue. At the same time, we need hydrogen to be produced using that renewable energy, and there are several industries who are interested in in using hydrogen to allow them to meet the Paris Agreement. Aviation is one, the trucking industry is another. Maritime is also interested in it, and we need to to to see that scale up over the next few years in order for the cost of hydrogen to come down to the levels that we need for it to be appropriate
for aviation. Then we need also with the work we're doing with the airport to be preparing for the hydrogen to come to airports and for aircraft to be able to be refueled with hydrogen in the twenty thirties. So that will require quite a lot of collaboration with airports to be able to to ensure that the hydrogen can be can be refueled in a safe manner at airports.
Is that correct? For sure? The whole topic requires a lot of collaboration outside of the aviation industry with the airports, around the detailed infrastructure at the airports, with energy companies looking at the infrastructure to get the hydrogen from its production site to the airport, and with the renewable energy sector, because we need part of the renewable energy that's that's got to be planned and that eventually needs to be
produced for the aviation industry. So will this require quite a lot of government support in the form of subsidies to try and reduce the cost of producing hydrogen from renewable energy in order to make it economic for the aviation sector to use the renewable energy and hydrogen economy
for sure needs to be supported. It's probably likely that over the next ten years it's not going to be more economic than perhaps the fossil fuel equivalent, and like what we've seen in the renewable energy sector up until now, certainly support incentives to build the scale and then with
the scale the cost starts to come down. That that government support that those incentives are definitely required over the next ten years, but you do see it as viable that we actually get zero emission aircraft in the sky by the mid thirties, for sure. This is a very clear target. We've said ourselves. There are a number of independent institutes that of mapped out how hydrogen cost can
come down over the next decades. We see a thirty percent reduction in renewable hydrogen cost in twenty compared to where it is today. We see a fifty percent reduction in hydrogen cost by twenty fifty. They're exactly the kind of cost figures that are interesting for us because it makes zero emission aviation commercially viable in the excellent that's
so exciting. I know that hydrogen has is less energy dense by a long way compared to fossil fuel, going to make the aircraft too bulky to fly if you need to have a lot of hydrogen on board. Yes, so hydrogen has a lot more energy in it per unit weight, but it has a lot less energy and a per unit of volume. So you're you're exactly right. It uses a lot more volume than than kerosene, in fact,
four times more. So we have to change the aircraft configuration somewhat in order to adapted to that new energy carrier. In the concepts that we revealed on the twenty one September, we see that some concepts have a longer fuselage because we put the tanks behind the cabin in the very rare part of the aircraft, and that requires a longer fuselage.
Other concepts that we're looking at include the flying wings of the blended wing body aircraft, and this is a concept which by definition has more volume inside it, and that lends itself really to to using hydrogen on board and could be the ultimate high performance hydrogen aircraft in the future. That sounds really exciting. So does that mean that in future the whole kind of shape and design of the way we see airplanes today could actually change? For sure. I think what we have seen over the
last decades are incredible improvements in performance. We've had an eight cent reduction in CEO two emissions, for example per passenger kilometer since the beginning of commercial aviation. That's incredible, and now that's our starting point for probably the next stage and disruption to bring the emissions of the aircraft
down to zero in terms of fully electric flight. You mentioned at the beginning that this might be best suited to short urban routes, and you've got a vertical takeoff and landing project going on, so could you tell us a little bit more about that, and also where you see the subject of autonomy going our autonomous electric aircraft, will they be of benefit in the future as well. We have over a hundred flight tests completed of fully
electric vertical takeoff and landing aircraft. We're not just interested in bringing let's say zero emission technology to large scale commercial aviation, which is for sure an ambition, but we're also interested in bringing those technologies to the complete product line, including helicopters and vertical takeoff and landing. And we've got one demonstrator completed with over a hundred flights that we
developed in the United States. We have another program which is currently underway and which is currently undergoing flight testing in the south of Germany. It's called City Airbus. And both of those concepts are quite different if you look at them from outside. There is one which looks like a multi rotor. It's got several blades on the top
of the vehicle and it's got no wings. The other concept that we call the Hannah is a tilt wing aircraft, so the wings actually tilt in order to transition from vertical takeoff and ending into forward flight. Those two different approaches are then going to be combined in what we ultimately bring to market in that in that sector. So it's it's an extremely exciting space. Lots going on in that area, and for sure that market segment is adapted
well adapted to battery fully electric technology. So what kind of application do you see those aircraft being used for? Would it be like on demand city transport. Yes, that's definitely an application where those aircraft are extremely relevant. You could imagine, for example, in some cities where it takes a long time via ground transportation to go from an airport to a city center. In some cities it can
be a one hour or even two our journey. With this kind of aircraft, that trip could be done in fifteen minutes, and because of the electrical propulsion systems on board, the cost starts to even be competitive with the ground transportation equivalent. So it's it's really a way to potentially bring low cost, high speed alternative to ground transportation for certain cities. That's really interesting. I look forward to that, So when do you see that technology becoming cost competitive
in the future for cities. So the urban air mobility market segment and the aircraft that we are developing for it, we expect to be at maturation around the middle or second half of this current decade. So what we're talking about is in the next five to ten years, really seeing these aircraft flying around and carrying people great. I know that several companies are developing concepts for electroc flight, including Boeing and Uber, So is it an industry race
to see who can get there first? I think there's a real need for the complete industry to reduce its climate impact. I think Airbus has certainly positioned itself in a leadership position when it comes to that challenge, whether we talk about urban air mobility and and smaller vehicles are now with the zero E project large commercial aircraft. I would encourage any player, whether it's startups or larger players, to join us on this adventure, to even collaborate on
eliminating aviations climate impact. Aviation is an incredible service to society, connecting us in physical ways which are not otherwise possible. But we have to recognize that there is a climate impact associated and we need to bring that climate impact down to zero. That's a really good point. So you see quite a lot of opportunity for collaboration among industry
participants on reaching their emissions technology and flight sure. Sure, and I think it's an opportunity for everybody to play a role in meeting the Paris Agreement and eliminating the climate impact of aviation. What are your thoughts on autonomous flight, particularly for these shorts urban trips made by for the electric aircraft. Yeah, autonomy is definitely a very relevant technology for aviation. It can bring the cost down even further
if these aircraft don't require a pilot on board. It's a topic which will be dealt with in a very step by step manner, where we will see initially perhaps single pilot on board instead of sometimes two pilots, will see remotely piloted aircraft as a second step, and then we'll see potentially full autonomy much later. It's it's definitely a huge opportunity, but it will be dealt with in discrete steps to in sure that we achieve all of the safety and operational objective switch we need to while
implementing that technology. That's a very good point. Well, thank you so much for speaking with us today, Gland. It's really great to hear more about a US as path to zero emissions technology. Thank you, my pleasure, Thanks for your interest. Today's episode of Switched On was edited by Rex Warner of Grace Stoak Media. Bloombergini app is a
service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. This recording does not constitute, nor it should it be construed, as investment advice, investment recommendations, or a recommendation as to an investment or other strategy. Bloomberg An EPP should not be considered as information sufficient upon which to base an
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