AES Chief on the Transition to Net Zero

particular in regard to their net zero target. If you'd like to read some related b n F research, you can go to the Bloomberg terminal at BENF Go or to b NF dot com or a mobile app. Some examples of things that might be of interest to you include the corporate net zero state of play key trends or the corporate pp A deal tracker from or our first half energy storage market outlook, and lastly the Texas

Power failure the supply story. As a reminder, B and the F does not provide investment or strategy advice, and we have a complete disclaimer at the end of the show. But now let's hear from Andres. Andres, thank you so much for joining us on Switched. On today. Can you tell me just a little bit about yourself and how you got involved in the power sector. Well, Dana, first, thanks for you very much for the invitation. It's a real honor to be on this podcast. I got into

the electricity sector via telecoms. So I was in telecoms in the nineties. I found it a fascinating time because first you had digital networks, you had cellular networks, and then you had internet service providers. So I was lucky enough to be in the telecommunication sector in the nineties, which really underwent tremendous transformation. So from telecoms, I got

into an electricity company. It was a multinational and that multinational was based in Venezuela, where I'm from, and it was bought by A S. And that's how I started working for A S in the year two thousand. So I find a lot of parallels between the sectors, between a telecom and the electricity sector. And I think what we're experiencing today in the electricity sector is most similar to what I lived in the nineties in the telecom sector. So it's a fascinating time to be in the electric sector.

It's undergoing a transformation. The likes of which it hasn't had for a hundred years. Yes, so you're in this super fast moving, rapidly changing space. And I bet when you first got involved in the electricity sector it was pretty box standard and then things seem to have well,

have changed quite a bit. So just reflecting back on even just the time since you became CEO, So you've been CEO for quite sometimes since, and what have you seen change really in how people not only look at this industry and what happens in this industry, but just even in the terminology because we're thinking that you know, a lot of companies right now talk about net zero targets and E s G has become a phrase that was you know, niche maybe when you first started, and

is now ubiquitous across a lot of investors in the investment community. How is the terminology and really just kind of the speed of change changed, Well, it's changed dramatically. When I became CEO at the end of twenty eleven and we saw that this was going to change, we thought the sector was right for a change, but the technologies weren't really ready. So for example, we started really inventing I would say grid scale energy storage using lithium

ion batteries for example. Back then, you know this this goes back even I started to CEO a little bit before I was CEO, working with people here like Chris Shelton, we saw that, you know, energy storage was very much needed if we were going to have a renewable revolution, because as we all know, renewables are mostly intermittent and that means that they're not available, so you really needed capacity. So how are you going to achieve zero carbon capacity?

We had this view of where the sector could go. We also thought about digitalization, so we worked very hard to become very efficient, leading edge innovator, i would say from the very start, but the cost of the of renewables and many of the technologies weren't there. That that's really been I would say in the last four or five years, were renewable energy not capacity. Renewable energy really

became cheapest in many locations. So the good thing is we had a great foundation to be able to incorporate all of the latest technologies when they became really cost effective. So we were, i'd like to say a little bit ahead of the curve now in terms of how the sector talked about it. It was interesting when I first started, you know, making large investments in renewables, investing in leading technologies,

a lot of them through joint ventures. I did get some pushback you know from uh, you know, some investors, and I remember the term. One said you you really drank the kool aid, and I was saying, no, uh, you know, we think we're going to be able to make money in this and we think the transition will happen. So what we've done really is, I would say, be a leader in the transition. We have let's say, we've retired or sold more coal as a percentage of our

fleet than anybody in the States. Uh. And in terms of absolute I think we're second, if not first. But we've also are one of the largest renewable developers among all the US companies. What we have done is shut one down in a responsible fashion and build the new. So now we find that we no longer get that pushback. I mean, I don't have anybody questioning it. And you know, our leadership, you'll say in in g matters is becoming

more more commonplace. But you know, for example, we were the first large US company in our sector to come out with a report for the Task Force on Climate Disclosure. In we came out with the second report last year. We're part of the Dow Jones Sustainability Index. In terms of innovation, it's very interesting. The Edison Electric Institute, which is sort of the umbrella organization of the large electric companies in the US, gives two prices for innovation every year,

one internationally and one domestically. We have won seven prizes in the last twelve years, so if you think about that, we've we've won a very high percentage. Nobody else comes close for the domestic or the international because you guys operate in both in North and South America. That's correct, we've won both. We've won domestic for the US and we've won international. We've been running up twice as well.

So I think that, you know, this shows that this spirit of entrepreneurship, the spirit of innovation that the a S has somewhat unique, has given very good results. And you know, we have really moved radically into renewables. I'd say we're probably half half the way there. But at the same time, you know, are we be we were more profitable, you know, we're more profitable than we've ever been. So we haven't really given up on the economic and

financial side to be able to make this transition. Well, so perhaps instead of drinking the cool lady saw the future and speaking of the future, So a s a net zero target, of when did you set that target? We have multiple targets and so one of the things that you know, a lot of people were setting sort of twenty fifty targets and we thought, well, that's a long times out and you know, the key executives aren't going to be here. One that happened, So we set

a lot of shorter term goals. So we have set goals. We said goals, we said goals. So are I'd say our most dramatic is by we want to be net zero from electricity and then completely net zero by but we want to be below ten of our generation coming from coal, and we wanted to be below by. So we have you know, made you know, dramatic commitments, but

you know, so far we've been overachieving them. So I think that we're on a good track to achieve these uh and we're making the necessary investments today, So we really aren't just making the investments. In many cases, we're kind of inventing inventing the market on the digital space, on the energy storage space, on the combination space. Uh. And that that's what's allowed us to move that quickly. About when do you think that a s IS portfolio

will reach kind of peak emissions? Are you already drawing down on emissions now? Or is that thing that really will take some time in some investment into before you can reach that peak and then really start to come down. No. No,

we've passed peak emissions. We're certainly on a decreasing So I've actually never you know, directly thought of that question, but it must have been like two or three years ago when we really started building giga watts of renewables and when we started shutting down giggle watts of of cold So you know, in the big picture, we've sold or retired about twelve gigawatts of coal and you know, some of it is still in the closing down phase because you can't do this overnight, but it will happen

over the next couple of years. Uh. And we've built probably twelve gigga watts of renewables in that time period. But in addition, I would say we're doing a lot for climate change that doesn't really count in those numbers because today we're selling energy storage through our joint venture with Siemens called Fluence. We're now in twenty nine countries, and energy storage is really allowing people to put more

renewables on the grid. You know, we also have a joint venture where we make prefabs holder a product called Maverick, and the joint ventures with a company called five b Uh and we're starting to roll that out, and so that allows you to double the energy density of solar farms, build them in a third of the time, and perhaps most importantly, it's hurricane resistant. We have projects which have survived, you know, very well to category four hurricanes and now

we're testing it in category five tunnel tests. So we're doing a lot to help the transition to a sustainable energy future beyond just our own platform. And as we record today, there's actually a tropical storm headed for Florida, so definitely something that you know, many people are keeping

an eye on. Let's expand on that. You know, climate change is often talked about in terms of global averages, but really re experience them in these extremes and as you referenced, hurricanes, and we have these high temperatures actually that happened recently in British Columbia, and then these incredibly low temperatures that happened just this last winter in Texas,

and these have big implications for power companies. You're looking at this resilience within as you referenced within your solar investments. How do you think power companies can prepare for these extremes and how important is it for power companies to prepare for extremes when you just don't know how often these things will happen. Well, as they say, it's not just global warming, it's global weirding. So you will have more extremes in temperatures, you'll have changes in rainfall patterns

as well. So we've looked at this very deeply, i'd say, when we came out with a second task of for you know, report on climate disclosure, the one we looked at two scenarios and one scenario was basically that the world doesn't do enough to reduce emissions and the temperature rises on average four and a half degree celsius. And the other scenario is that you know the world is successful and keeps the temperature increased below to degrees celsius.

And what we found is that our business is resilient both in terms of its physical assets and in terms of financially in terms of where our exposure will be when these things occur. So we started that, we did it again, and you know, we're more robust in Uh, the scenarios have changed somewhat, but I feel confident of it. So, you know, one of the things that I think is very important is that we really be serious and look

at the details. Because when Hurricane Maria hit, for example, our solar farms in the US Virgin Islands were completely destroyed. If you look at what happened to wind farms in Puerto Rico as well. You have to really have renewables that can resist these extremes. So I go back to, you know, the Maverick product of five B that's hurricane resistant solar. That's key. You know, it doesn't make sense

to make people build something that will be destroyed. So one of the approaches that we've taken I think that's unique is that we think of ourselves as open source. So when we come up with new developments, whether it be energy storage, AI efficiency programs, whether it be you know, hurricane resistant solar, farms. We sell it to third parties

because this is a global problem. So if we can get people to put these on their platforms, will advance renewables much faster than we try to just keep it as a competitive advantage for ourselves. That definitely does push things forward, because well, it pushes innovation. So you were talking about how a S really looked at batteries before they were probably as popular as they are today. And also a lot of these renewable technologies which now have

very strong economics, but didn't always. So this puts some emphasis on technology an advancement. And of course there's advancing existing technologies and making them more efficient better. But then there's this concept of what don't we know? What haven't we invented yet? And that came up earlier this year.

So Biden convene in this climate summit with world leaders, and one of the things that Secretary carry said at that summit was that many of the technologies that we need for a net zero future haven't been invented yet. Do you think that's true and if so, where do you see the technology development going. Well, I think it's true in the sense that we have to get to

net zero in all sectors, not just electricity. So I think in the case of electricity that you will have specific problems, mostly of capacity in places where you know you don't have good win, you don't have good solar, you have great seasonal variability. So the truth is thinking of the US as a whole, you know, we probably

know how to get to probably about carbon free. The last will be more difficult, and so the real question is how do you approach that, and against it's a question of doing it economically because you know you could do it, but the cost of electricity would would not

be affordable, so that really there is that issue. There are technologies on the horizon energy storage using lithiumine batteries US keep getting cheaper, but it's not the ideal solution for for example, interseasonal variations, because it's it's terrific for even you know, I would say weekly variations, but it's not the right technology for interseasons. So you know, will it be green hydrogen, will it be modular nuclear, so

on something? Some of these you know, we do need to really have the And again, the technology i'd say exists, the real question is can you scale it up? Is it cost efficient? Decisions have to be made. You know, are we going to except, for example, modular nuclear, because that would solve a lot of the problems of capacity. You know, those are the decisions that have to be made. Now. Do I think that we will get there? I do, But I do think that there's a whole lot we

can do with today's existing technologies. It's a question of having the right regulations in place to incentivize using the best possible technology, because some of this is regulatory driven, so sometimes regulations are keeping back the optimal technologies. Now for a very short break, stay with us. So I love that you brought up green hydrogen because hydrogen is

definitely a very buzzy topic at the moment. A lot of people want to know more about the potential of hydrogen maybe when the costs are really going to be at parody, and I think there are a lot of companies that really are thinking about this as a is a very viable solution for the future. So I'm maybe not necessarily about hydrogen um, but about any technology. If you had to pick, what is one energy transition technology that you feel is a bit overhyped at the moment. Well, actually,

I do think it probably be green hydrogen. You know, we have today probably the first industrial scale project in Chile to produce green ammonia. It's a joint venture and you know, we're in the feasibility study and as you say, you know, it's really it can be produced. The question is,

you know, the price point. But if successful, you know, this would be require almost a giggle watt of renewable energy to crack the water and produce the hydrogen, and then of course you have to transport it, and you know, can you use a fuel like green ammonia for the transportation. So we're actually I think leaving the pack in this. I'm not aware of any other truly industrial scale in this case. It's green ammonia, hydrogen based fuel that's at

this stage of advancement that we're in. So you have a lot of projects that are you know, twenty megawatts or you know, pilot projects. So it gets hype like, well, this is the solution. Well, no, we have to be able to do, you know, make a million tons three hundred thousand tons a year from one facility to to really drive down the cost. So I think it's a little bit overhyped. Now. The other issue is Uh, you know, there's the electric sectors. I said, the real problem is capacity,

uh and inter seasonal fluctuations. But then you have transportation. In the case of transportation, I do think that you know, for everyday commuting electric vehicles are you know, probably the solution. Now when you're talking about long hauls of trucking and the like, you know, that's where something like hydrogen comes in. Do we have the engines that don't need a starter fuel? Do we have you know, how are you going to transport it? You know, how are you going to make

sure that the whole cycle makes sense? Because you know, you have to think of the whole cycle. You know, what is the energy loss when you produce the fuel, when you store it, when you transport it, and then you burn it again. You know, you have to look at the complete picture. So there's still a lot of things that have to happen. So I think some of the companies are over hyping it. If if we get this big project off, you know, by the end of this year, I think that's going to be really a

milestone in the sector. So it's going to be very specifically you know, for like say ocean transportation, but a lot of it would go into actually fertilizer, I believe. So I have to ask, do you have an electric vehicle? Yes? I do, well, Yes, I do have a Tesla Model three. In addition, you know here at a Yes, we've been planting trees to offset our carbon emissions. It actually started by Roger Sant, who's who's one of our two founders.

But you know today we've planted ten million trees. So even today we calculate our carbon footprint for by for travel, you know, because bart really jet travel is probably the most carbon intensive thing that any of us does. Uh, and we offset it by planting trees in Brazil. So yeah, we're very conscious about our own carbon footprint and trying

to reduce it in all our installations. How much of an opportunity or potentially logistical challenge do you think electric vehicles are going to pose for the grid and for the electricity sector, because as you referenced, for long haul, even an electric vehicle, you've got to figure out where you're going to charge and where you're gonna take your breaks, and it may not always happen at home. Yes, that's

a good question. Look, I think that first year you're gonna have the you know, for example, electrification of bus fleets. You know, that's going to require energy storage because it's basically either you have to upgrade the whole grid or or you're going to store up energy in certain you know, bus team posts. When you think of cars, you know, individually at the homes, they're kind of like mobile batteries, and so how do they fit into a smart grid.

So one of the things that we're the leaders in quite frankly through a joint venture called Uplight, we are the leading energy efficiency services cloud based services provider, you know, just a sort of a data point where we're the biggest, I believe seller of nests in the country. We provide energy efficiency algorithms, etcetera to a d us electric and

gas utilities. So I think this part of using AI and smart networks is part of the solution because the most let's say, carbon friendly solution is to use electricity more efficiently, and so we're approaching that as well. So the way we look at it, what is unique about AS is that we bring together all the technologies and

we joint venture with people. We've been very effective at taking small startups and growing up to you know, unicorns valuations, you know, over a billion dollars, and the fact that we are pretty much open source, you know, we are

sharing our technological advances with with everybody. So again, when we started using lithium ion batteries for energy storage, nobody else was and we had the first great scale units not only in the States, but you know in countries like you know, Germany, the UK, India, Philippines, and a lot of the work was, for example, with regulators to

get that pass. So, you know, we could have taken an approach and saying, look, we're leading in this, let's use it to you know, win more power purchase agreements. But instead, you know, I think we took the right role of saying, okay, we will sell it at the same price to others because it will allow us to

massiffice and drop the cost. What's one of the areas in particular in regard to storage, where you see there are being some real potential and one of the things that you're kind of maybe not experimenting, but trying out. I think one of the areas that excites me most is the application of energy storage to transmission, because transmission lines are built, you know, the whole line for the

maximum use at any period of time. You know, it could be a couple of days of a month, and it could be a couple of hours during those days. So really they're overbuilt, you know the words, they're a little bit like you know, uh, you know, they have the you have the opportunity like for an uber or B and B Airbnb. So how can you make better

use of that transmission? So if you put energy storage on it, you can basically run those same transmission line at of capacity all the time because you are storing it up in these banks and injecting it where you need it when you need it. Now, this is very important because we all talk about the renewables and how we're gonna build you know, thousands of giga lots of renewables, but those are not located where the energy demand is.

So you're going to have to create transmission to get it across and that's going to take years for the permits, and you know, tens of billions of dollars to build that transmission. So the smart application of energy storage could drastically reduce the amount of money you have to invest

in transmission. So right now we have through sements. We've talked to the German government and they're they've put out a request for proposals to use energy storage so that they can use the existing transmission lines two more efficiently bring energy from the North Sea down to the southeast of Germany where you have a lot of the industrial load. So, um, this is a great case where we can prove it. Uh.

And then I think that the main restriction. I think the technical issues are will be solvable or you know, are solvable. It's just a question of getting the regulations to incentivize people to make better use of existing infrastructure and not necessarily building new infrastructure. And do you think that this could save a lot of money in the long run, because I know there's been a lot of talk about how transmission lines are really underinvested in Well, absolutely,

I think time and money. Because so I'm not saying that this would solve all the transmission problem, because obviously you're gonna have renewables in areas where there's no transmission line, so you need to get a line out there. But what I'm saying is it it could definitely reduce the amount of investment needed, and it could reduce the time because you don't. You would require much less permiting. Since you know, energy storage doesn't have any emissions, it can

be located anywhere. It could really optimize the transmission lines. And then you you add to that artificial intelligence to optimize the charging and the discharging. Um you're gonna have a much better system. So I have absolutely no doubt that this can save a lot of time and money. And do you see these as potentially being kind of companies unto themselves? And do you see them sitting under a lot of electricity providers as a part of their portfolio.

A lot of the issues surrounding energy storage is who gets to own it? Is a degenerator, is a distributor? Until today, you know, for example, you didn't get the tax breaks the investment tax credit or a production tax credit that applies to solar or wind for standalone energy storage. So a lot of projects include energy storage with solar or wind that may or not be optimal. So it's you know, I think it's best just to say, look, all technologies have more or less the same subsidy and

allow people to use the one that is best. You know, I think the meat key point will be, you know, regulators should allow as many people as possible to have them. They should allow utilities to rate base them. And I think that you know, you shouldn't artificially say no only generators can have it, our only distribution companies can have it.

I think make it widely available to all. So a S, I would definitely say, see yourself as innovators and are looking at opportunities to change, grow, improve the electricity sector makes you fit in quite well in Silicon Valley, which then brings me to Google. So there was a recent announcement that a S would be providing electricity to Google, providing green electricity to Google. Can you tell me a

little bit more about that relationship? That was a very interesting, let's say process, and it really was a partnership because this wasn't like a just the response to you know, our FP or a bid. It was really we went to Google and we said, look, we have these capabilities. You want renewable energy. But what is happening is you know, you have to cut through really what I would say

reality and a little bit of hype. A lot of people say they're green, but the truth is they overpurchase renewables certain hours and certain hours are taking non renewable energy from the grid. So what we proposed to Google was for their data centers here in Virginia was to have seven carbon free energy and that we would provide that for ten years. So that is very complex optimization problem because like what is the optimal mix of solar, wind,

hydro and energy storage. Because you can do it, but the question is how can you do it cost effectively? So it takes a tremendous amount of you know, mathematical modeling takes a tremendous amount of knowing all the different energy sources. So we co developed this, I would say to a large degree, and really what came out optimal was Okay, we can net this on an hourly basis, So that's unique. Nobody nets this on an hourly basis.

Usually they netted on a yearly basis. Now it's not a carbon free, it's carbon free because quite frankly, that was the price point that they wanted. Now this we are, you know, in talks with other technology companies to provide similar products. We were not only the first, but I still think we're the only ones who can really provide it, who really have the modeling capabilities today to do this, so it wasn't just you know, giving them clean energy,

was giving them something new. And that's what we're really, I think most interested in doing. You know, out in Kauai, for example, we did the first really sort of DC paired solar energy storage that would give them baseload capabilities, So basically saying, look, you want to have solar power around the clock, how can you do that efficiently? And allowed them to retire a lot of their diesel plans. So that's what's what we're about. But we work with

the clients. We don't we don't just come and say, look what you need is X. You know, we come and say, look, this is an interesting idea of what

do you want. So if we have other contracts that are similar of you know, sort of twenty four seven carbon free energy with other firms, you know, it might be slightly different than what we did with Google, but it's it's a very good partnership and you know, we um you know, we're very happy we're working on several things with them and that they chose us as as a counterpart too to work these things. I certainly hope

you got to visit the Kawaii project. I haven't and I've never been to Hawaii, but we have on the island of Kauai. We worked with the Kauai Island Utility Cooperative and you know, we did that solar energy storage sort of baseload project. The military very interested in it because the weakest link in the supply chain for them was was the Navy having to have ship diesel to say missile plants out in the Pacific. So if you could do solar plus storage, that makes that missile base

more robust. So we're working on something with them. We're also doing another one now also in Kauai with the k I U S which is combining pump hydrome, wind, solar and energy storage. And you know, we have been very active in Hawaii, not only with k I you see, but also with HICO helping them to become carbon free and we've done that building solar wind energy storage. So these these partnerships are exactly what what we think is

our sweet spot. You know, it's it's not selling a commoditized product, but it's really creating the most value for our clients through combinations of technology, inventing technology, and you know, I think this is a very good place to be today. But I love that you brought up pump hydro because that's one of those technologies that's been around for a

while as a storage technology and is pretty effective. While you referenced this at the beginning of today's conversation, you talk about how batteries are really useful for helping with intermittency on the daily or maybe even a weekly basis. But then there's the seasonality issue. And if you're going to be supplying seven, three and sixty five days energy, what are the technologies where you see the most potential

for us to really work on this seasonality issue. For example, pump hydros is great where you already have a reservoir and you know you can you know, optimize it now. Now, the truth is, for you know, shorter term fluctuations, it's much more efficient to store electrons than be pumping molecules up and down. But again, it you know, a reservoir does provide interseasonal storage. You could also do that again with a h'd gin fuel. That's where I think hydrogen

could be now. Again, it would be a hydrogen fuel that you don't have to keep cry you know, so cryogenically because you waste a lot of energy on that. So I think that you know that part, you know that there are various ways that society can go. It has to take to take a decision. And then then decision really is, you know, are we going to invest

in in hydrogen based fuels? Are you going to have to subsidize it because it's it's not that cost effective if you have to store it genically for long periods of time, or do we go to something like modularor nuclear because nuclear does is you know, is baseload and nuclear you know, would solve that problem to a large extent, but you know, there's a lot of pushback uh nimby. Nobody wants nuclear plants in their neighborhood. So, you know,

those are the questions. I think that the Secretary Kerry was really saying, you know, we have to what are the technologies that they're going to close that gap? Do you think a yes is closed on doing modular nuclear? No? Quite for any of that. We've we've always shied away from from nuclear because we think that uh it um there's a lot of resistance. It's going to be very hard to um to get the permity, certainly for the

first ones. Uh on the other hand, you know, it's it's the large traditional nuclear plants have had tremendous cost overruns. It's been very expensive to do um and some of the older nuclear plants are not economic. So, you know, having said that, you know, nuclear is an important element to keep carbon free uh baseload energy. So again that's that's an area that we've decided not to not to enter. I mentioned that just because I think that it might be part of the solution to get to net zero.

Is there anything else that you think that I'd missed that you want to discuss. I think just you know, what an exciting time it is to be in the sector and the electricity sector, and how in terms of attracting talent, there's never been a better time because the young generation is very mission driven and they want to make a positive difference, and I think that, you know, many of them feel that the renewable sector, the energy sector in total, is a place that they can make

that difference and get meeting. So it's an interesting time to to be in the sector. And I think it's you know, we're just starting this this traumatic change and it's going to involve not only building carbon free energy,

but also changing how we use it. You know, don't underestimate the use of AI and digital and smart grids to optimize our energy use well, and you talk about attracting talent, so you know, when we were talking about the targets, when I think of targets, I think about the fact that my kids are going to be roughly the age I am now when that happens. Um so on the way there, we need to attract as many people into solving these solutions as possible, and is a

really exciting time. What are the skills that you look for in order to be in the electricity sector? This is obviously a space that has attracted engineers all along, but what are the other things that you think are really required in order to make you competitive today's day and age. What we're really looking for, I would say, is people who have great intellectual curiosity because you're going to have to be constantly learning things. And also people who are able to I would say, have the open

minded listen to the clients to find innovative solutions. So it's not just a matter of you know, being the best engineer, because if you sort of stick to tried and true solutions, that's not what's required, is really required, is how can I come up with something new. It doesn't have to be totally, but it really could be

how you integrate things, And that's what we're doing. You know, we really feel that we have this suite of capabilities and the very best developers were having really they're able to bring these to bear to solve the client's problem.

So decarbonization, it's you'd reference that we are going to need to well that the energy transition can't do at all, and that there are a lot of areas, including some of the really hard to abate sectors, that are going to need to turn if we want to avoid not just one point five or two, but higher temperature warming

on this planet. So I once heard Christiana Figures. She said that the energy transition is already happening and it has so much momentum that we really do need to focus on a lot of these other areas like agriculture that just don't have the wealth of solutions right now.

So outside of the electricity space, which you know so well, what are the areas that you're watching most closely when it comes to decarbonization, We think the next one really would be transportation and they're going to be very intertwined. As I said, electric vehicles are in a sense mobile batteries, and they have to become part of the smart grid in terms of how we manage it. So I would say transportation. Now there are some areas, like say aircraft,

long haul aircraft, which will be more difficult. I mean there you might have to go to some sort of synthetic fuel or something that the whole processes is in the zero. I think in terms of agriculture, there are many things that can be done to make sure that it's as sustainable as as possible. Now, you know, the reality is that the world can feed itself today. You know, we didn't fall into the sort of club of Rome Malthusian trap. But it has a lot to do with

nitrogen and the fact that nitrogen based fertilizers. So there's a whole point now I think of thinking how can you make agriculture more sustainable, And it's not only a question of methane and CEO two emissions, but it's also an issue of you know, making sure that the soil has all the nutrients and capability to for you know, long term farming. So agriculture I think will probably be

the most difficult area. But I really like that she brings that up because a lot of people, I think rather simplistically of the problem and just say, well, if we band burning coal, problems solved, and the truth is no, it's unfortunately, it's going to take an all around effort and who knows. I mean, maybe we come up with an efficient way of capturing carbon from the atmosphere that might be needed, but you know right now there's no

cost efficient technology to do that. Well, on that note, here's to innovation and you know, hoping to see continued innovation from a S and then just across the electricity industry. So thank you very much for your time and for sharing your insights today regarding where you see things now and how you see things changing in the future. Thanks Andreis, Thank you very much. Data. It was a real pleasure. This week's show was produced by Ava Gonzalezi Slaw and

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