001P. Book Review: How to Win Friends and Influence People

[00:00:00] Andrew Gilley: Hello everybody. Welcome to the Surviving Humanity stream. I'm Andrew, that's Wesley, and we're here to do the book club today for the first time. So excited to do that and I think, shall we just dive on in? Yep. All right. And well, if you've ever wondered how to make more friends and be more persuasive in today's, uh, exclusive book club episode, we're looking at that through our review of How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.

Uh, we've read the book for you so we can share some essential information with you and how the book's concept show up in your day-to-day life. We'll talk about our individual praises for the book. While addressing some critiques of the overall material, and we'll give you a recommendation. Who's this book for?

And you know, we'll rate it outta five stars. Everyone loves ratings. Um, and we'll move on to some q and a round everything out. So without further ado, welcome everyone to Surviving Humanity, a self-help podcast where we shift your perspective to help you overcome the obstacles in your life where Wesley Jackson and Andrew Gilley, and we hope to foster a sense of connection to community over our common struggles while providing you with the tools to overcome them.

And as always, our Facebook subreddit and Twitter are the plus places to go for community connection and support. And links are in the show notes. So let's get started. Essential book information. What do you have,

[00:01:22] Wesley Jackson: Les? Ooh. So this book is divided into four parts, and each of these four parts contains a different number of principles.

And these four parts of the book are fundamentals when communicating with people, how to make people like you, how to persuade people. And then lastly, how to be a leader, a k a, how to change people. And so at the core of the book though, is this requirement of authenticity, uh, which I really like since that's also my number one core value.

And the book doesn't really teach you these skills to try and manipulate you, uh, but rather to become a better person. And so ultimately, a more authentic version of yourself. What, what would you say, Andrew? What do you, how do you think you'd describe it?

[00:02:12] Andrew Gilley: Uh, I'll give a little background on the author and the context in which it was written.

I think that helps a little bit. Uh, so Dale Carnegie, um, no relation to Andrew Carnegie, but as an, as a fun fact, he did change his last name to be spelled the same way. Uh, he is an American author. He is born 1888. And, you know, so growing up, uh, you know, That was a big time for American business and learning from people there and you know, kind of a rags to riches story.

He was a poor boy on a Mississippi farm and grew up to adept salesman and speaker. You know, it's you. We've all heard this story a hundred times before, but he did it pretty early. He was one of the first people to sort of do that kind of story. And, uh, he started out public speaking coaching and evolved from there to cover aspects of thi more aspects of life like this book.

And he writes one later called How to Stop Worrying and Start Living. Um, so he was kind of all over that personal development field. He wrote a lot about Lincoln and how Lincoln was good and Lincoln's daily routines, so he was an early adopter of that as well. Looking at famous people and seeing what they do differently than others.

So, yeah, that's kind of where we're coming from here. It's a very early book, so a lot of the stuff is very basic and that's good. I think in a lot of ways it really helps to drill down into basic stuff and kind of let you know what are the basic building blocks of making decent conversation to, you know, be a little bit more agreeable, a little bit more pleasant.

[00:03:44] Wesley Jackson: Yeah. Speaking of conversation, how would you say that the book's concepts show up in our daily lives?

[00:03:50] Andrew Gilley: Well, I was a pretty awkward kid, pretty antisocial kid. Um, I was not really very good at like social interaction. And I did read this at 12 ish, 12 or 13, and it did help me. So that's, you know, I kind of needed advice, like if you smile people like you more and, uh, listen attentively because I never, you know, I didn't know the rules.

I didn't know the rules of like socially interacting. So, you know, this was helpful here. I think that's why I think the basics are super helpful. You know, coming back to the basics is really, really good. And you know, some people need the basics. I certainly needed them, so I was happy to have them.

[00:04:30] Wesley Jackson: Yeah, I'm actually right with you there.

I, it's the same way I need to like memorize some of these things. I'm like, oh yeah, smile more because people like that and you know, people like to reciprocate as well. Yeah. And the whole mirroring thing as well. Something I'm mindful of now. Um, yeah. You know, we have conversations with people on a daily basis and so every conversation.

Like this book says, is an opportunity to grow and learn more about ourselves as a end result. And so this all begins with like this a shift in perspective. Um, and it's also an opportunity to connect with other people. And this book kind of in a nutshell is a testament to all of that. Mm-hmm.

[00:05:14] Andrew Gilley: For sure.

And you know, it's good to understand people better. Regardless of the context of it, and you know, you're not always gonna get what you want. It's how to influence people, not how to control people. You can't, you know, make people do what you want. But you know, it's about just applying the principles of conversation lets you connect and understand with people better.

And I think that leads to good outcomes and all aspects of your life, even if you know, you're not really looking at the business aspect of it, or, uh, if you're not willing to. I suppose just do, do it for the sake of bettering yourself. You'll get good outcomes even if you look at it purely instrumentally.

So pretty much no matter what angle you come at it, it's good to connect with people. It's gonna help you in every aspect of your life. So I agree. Right? Yeah. So, um, what'd you like, what'd you like about the book?

[00:06:15] Wesley Jackson: Um, well, when I first read it, uh, years ago, I don't re even remember how long ago now. Uh, the, my biggest takeaway that I got was to use people's names more often, uh, like when you address them.

So I use that a lot in emails. Uh, that's like a good kind of standard, um, best practice in email marketing, for example, where you like personalize emails with people's first names. Uh, because like the quote from the book, Uh, from How to Win Friends and Influence People goes, remember that a person's name is to that person the sweetest and most important sound in any language.

And so, you know, there's even like scientific research out there that shows that we are able to literally hear our name more easily. Than any other word. And so this also comes in handy when you're trying to wake somebody up or get their attention, you know, in a crowded like grocery store or something like that, for example.

What about you, Andrew? Um,

[00:07:20] Andrew Gilley: just being a little bit more pleasant is a great thing that the book kind of teaches you to do. I, you know, I tend to criti. Uh, the, one of the books' rules is never criticize, condemn or complain. And I don't wanna listen to that one really. But I do try to do it in the right context, you know, criticizing, condemning, complaining.

We do that on the podcast, you know, we're doing kind of a cultural critique sort of thing a lot of the time. So, you know, there's the, there's that in there. It's, you know, good to criticize institutions and cultures and, you know, Like power, but you know, it's not really good to like go up to people in your life and just start picking at them.

And I did used to do that. Um, not really out of any kind of malice, but, um, because I thought people would wanna know what mistakes they were making, everybody, because to me it felt like everyone was always pointing them out to me. And it was like, anyway. Um, But it's good to draw that line. It's good to know when you should be like, and, and criticism is good in certain contexts too, both for personal improvement and also just it's good to criticize powerful things that are bad, but it's also good to know when to appreciate the people around you and the context in which you can be more, you should be more positive when connecting with other people.

It's not that you should never do it. Criticizing something with somebody that you both dislike is a lot of fun. But it's important to be grounded in a good understanding of being interpersonally likable and approachable. Because if you're just criticizing a kid, having or complaining about everything all the time, then you're just kind of.

Giving out negative energy and you're less fun to be around. So striking that line is really helpful, uh, for me personally, because, you know, I tended to go way overboard on the negativity. That doesn't help when you're a depressed teenager, you know, clinically depressed teenager. That's the most negative type of first one you can be.

[00:09:22] Wesley Jackson: Yeah. Um, the, that, that kind of goes into my point that I was also gonna talk about, which was, um, You know, appreciation versus criticism. Mm-hmm. And how the book emphasizes, you know, the effectiveness of reinforcement over punishment, for example. So the quote from the book goes be hardy in your approbation and lavish in your praise.

And so part four of the book in particular, really brings this home with what can really. Essentially be considered a step by step guide to getting people to do what you want. And it all begins with praise and honest appreciation because I think that's how you get people's guards, you know, and walls to come down and allows them to.

That kind of, you know, safe space, so to speak, to be themselves and be more vulnerable. And so I think that's really powerful. And, you know, rereading this book has helped remind me that I still need to continue to work on applying this part in my own life because I like, you know, just like you said, I'm prone to criticizing and you know, largely due to the way that I was raised, but I need to still continue to work on undoing that.

[00:10:36] Andrew Gilley: Yeah, absolutely. Cuz I think gratitude's a key point in the book and that's helpful because genuine, you know, it's always be grateful for what people are doing and, you know, give praise to people. It's very important because, you know, genuine gratitude does a lot, you know, it's, you know, it's good for other people.

You know, people like being complimented, but it's also like good for yourself. You know, it being grateful cognitively locks you out of certain emotions. Um, you know, it's. Very difficult to be angry when you're rich, expressing gratitude, for instance. So it helps a lot in main recognizing what we value in our lives and maintaining our own mental health through the appreciation of others.

So I like that point of it. It's very good to start from a point of appreciation.

[00:11:24] Wesley Jackson: I agree. What about, uh, critiques? Would, what would you say.

[00:11:30] Andrew Gilley: Well, I mean, the most common criticism of the book and is that it's manipulative and it is a little bit, maybe if you can, if you take the most uncharitable reading of it, you could use these techniques to be manipulative. But it's not just that or, or you know, it wouldn't be nearly as good a book as it is.

He spends a lot of time talking about, uh, Carnegie does talking about. Understanding the perspective behind other people's views, and that's an important point as sort of how do you avoid getting, you know, lost in the sauce, so to speak, to allow yourself to. Um, recognize the important parts of it. You know, you don't just want to get people to do what you want.

You wanna make them understand you too. You wanna, you want both side's perspectives to be shared and understood by the other person. This is a process of collaboration. It's less a manipulative process because, you know, if you're the boss, like some of the people in this book are, you could just tell somebody to do something and they'll have to do it.

Um, but you can't always really do that, and it's going to do. Uh, it's gonna lead to negativity there. Um, you know, the biggest criticism I have, honestly, is that a lot of this has become so in, and this isn't Carnegie's fault. A lot of this has become so internalized at this point that every business school or every business you work at will just kind of teach it.

Um, You know, they, they, you people are kind of guarded against niceness or something. That's why it has to be authentic. He says in the book, flattery, I'll get you nowhere. It has to be genuine niceness. But even then people will clock genuine niceness as flattery. So I guess my criticism is that the a hundred year old book didn't accurately anticipate what today is like at the end, which is silly.

But you know, just be aware that. This is a well-read book. People know a lot of this stuff already, and so it's not a one-to-one application. You're gonna have to do some of your own thinking to update the concepts a little bit. That doesn't mean it's not valuable, but it does need some thinking and modification.

[00:13:39] Wesley Jackson: Yeah, that was my only critique. As well as that there would be a, I would say a d decent amount of content for most people. That is probably common sense, um, especially in part two when it comes to how to make people like you. Um, but besides that, as someone who's, you know, not neurotypical or whatever, I found this book, uh, really helpful with navigating communication.

Specifically and like, you know, nurturing relationships as a result of that. Um, but with that said, I still feel like this is a powerful book for anybody at the end of the day because it teaches healthy communication and, you know, this results in healthier and more abundant relationships in general. And that sounds like a win-win to me.

So, Sure. Who, who else would we say this book is for though? And wh how, how many stars would you give it out of? Five. All

[00:14:31] Andrew Gilley: right. Um, I think it, uh, I said it was outdated, but I think it's useful as a foundation for a anyone, um, anybody who doesn't really know what to do in a social interaction. That's usually younger people, but you know, not always.

Um, But I mean, it does wonders. Anybody can benefit from the advice to like, admit your mistakes, take responsibility, uh, and, you know, giving other people the benefit of the doubt. That's a big one. Um, that, that one's hard for me sometimes, but, uh, so it's good for anybody to get reminded on these basics. Um, so, and it's a book you can reread and get some more out of.

Carnegie actually says this in the book, he says to reread the book, which. Of course he's going to, but it is good advice because it helps you understand the stories he tells a little bit more and helps it sicken. Um, I'd say four stars with the understanding that, uh, a lot of the practical examples aren't as solid as they used to be, but I would still give it four stars for and recommend it to people who are less comfortable in social situations, I would say.

And who and anyone who just feels like, okay, let me break it down to basics this time. If you're looking to do one of those two, if you're either uncomfortable or you're looking for a basics refresher, I think it's a good book for you.

[00:15:53] Wesley Jackson: Yeah, I agree. Anyone who wants to improve their communication, enhance their relationships, or, you know, make new or more friends.

Um, uh, but as I mentioned also really briefly, I feel this book is particularly powerful for people who are not neurotypical. For example, like people who are autistic, uh, have a D H D. Things like that. Um, this book provides people like that with a step-by-step playbook of sorts, I would say, to navigating conversations and making sure that you actually get something out of them, or not only just take from them and you do give something back and actually, you know, make that reciprocation process happen.

Um, I can tell you from firsthand experience that the book does help with that. And with that said, though, like I've said, part two may be redundant for a lot of people, so I don't think this book is perfect because of that. Uh, so I would give it a 4.5 out of five stars if we can do half stars. Mm-hmm. Um, so I, but it's, you know, definitely still one of the best.

Books out there at the end of the day for self-improvement. Um, and it was really nice getting to go through it again after such a long time. Um, and I'm thinking that maybe I'll print out a poster probably on my wall with those principles that are found within the book, because I think it's really nice to refer back to them on a regular basis.

Just like you said, how he mentioned in the book, it's something that's worth rereading. I, I, I totally agree with that statement.

Absolutely. So now we got live q and a. Mm-hmm. Right. You wanna start with, uh, one of our predetermined questions?

[00:17:48] Andrew Gilley: Sure.

[00:17:51] Wesley Jackson: Okay. So which principle from the book do you think is most important, Andrew, and why? Yeah.

[00:17:59] Andrew Gilley: Uh, I think,

hmm,

I, I think I'd still wanna highlight the criticizing, condemning and complaining principle here as one that's most useful specifically for being, uh, For making friends, for making acquaintances, and I think that's important because not only just for being pleasant, but also helps you reframe in your head thing things that might otherwise be unpleasant.

You know, it's like, how can I frame this in such a way that it appeals better to the other person? How can I frame this in a way that, uh, lets me see that? You know, there's positive things to this. Cause I, there's something I heard once, a long time ago, and I can tell you specifically what it's from. It's from, um, d uh, the, the old StarCraft Streamer Day nine.

And we're doing a real throwback today, if you know who that is. If not, don't worry about it. But what he said is he always tried to. Instead of just apologizing cuz he tends to apologize. He tended to apologize a lot. As is something I do. It's like it's saying thank you instead, instead of saying thank you so much for being accommodating, instead of, oh my God, I'm so sorry.

And I, that reframing helped me a lot and I think that's really a, that kind of message at the heart of what Carnegie's getting at there is once you're not criticizing, condemning or complaining, you know, cuz that apology would, you know, The focus is there on condemning your bad actions instead of praising the other person for theirs, and that's gratitude.

We talked earlier about how important gratitude is, so I think learning to think about your criticisms, your condemnations and your complaints in different lights is really important for not only improving your own mental health, but also, you know, making sure that you aren't putting people off with being too negative and your negativity, you know, then has more of an impact.

You're constantly negative all the time. It's all the same thing. If you pick carefully those moments, then it becomes a lot more powerful too. Your complaints become more val, more powerful. So

[00:20:16] Wesley Jackson: it's like the boy who cried wolf. Yeah,

[00:20:18] Andrew Gilley: yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that's a lot of benefit you can get out of really interrogating that concept.

There's a lot behind there. Once you start thinking about what you have to do, when you're not criticizing, condemning, you're complaining. You unlock a lot of stuff.

[00:20:36] Wesley Jackson: Yeah, if you don't do that all the time, you do get, get a lot of free time back.

Um, so I think the principle that, uh, was most important to me out of the book was try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view. Like you said, he really tries to hammer that point home a lot. And, uh, that's, you know, because I think this is the first stepping stone to really cultivating empathy in people, which I think is really important.

And you know, I believe empathy is one of the most important qualities that one can have, and that's probably because compassion's my number five core value. But, uh, empathy is essential in building and, you know, mending bridges as well, uh, between perspectives, uh, and people as a result. And so, th this really helps you form a more holistic worldview as well as an end result.

And I think that, you know, benefits everybody ultimately, at the end of the day.

Do you think there should be, uh, any new principles added to the book, Andrew, to, to maybe update it a little bit more to this modern time?

[00:21:50] Andrew Gilley: Uh. I think we, I think there's one main difference is that we don't really use the word friend the way Carnegie uses it here. I think it's more like acquaintance, really, the way he uses how to build, gain friends.

It's more like gaining acquaintances, which isn't bad. I like, I have lots of acquaintances. I like them, but, um, like just being nice and smiling all the time and, you know, being pleasant and complimentary. We'll get you a lot of acquaintances, but you know, to form a deep friendship, you have to kind of go beyond that.

So I maybe tweak the language a little bit. It's not really a new principle, but an understanding that we're not talking about. You can't do this and then expect somebody to be your best friend and confide in you and emotionally support you during like the hardest times in your life. That's not the kind of friendship you get out of only doing the things in this book.

You should still do a lot of these things. You know, don't be overly negative around your friends and stuff, but it's, or do honestly, if you're very close, that's one of the few people who can, but that's what I mean, it's that some of these principles aren't tailored for deep, meaningful friendship, therefore, you know, meeting people at the bar and having a good time or getting along at work.

Yeah. So I would just use the word friend a little bit differently to, and then maybe. That's kind of outside of the scope of the book to actually give advice on it. But I'd say we should probably be careful what we're talking about when we use the word winning friends because it might give a false impression.

[00:23:12] Wesley Jackson: Yeah, I could see that.

[00:23:14] Andrew Gilley: Yeah. How about you? Anything new you wanna

[00:23:16] Wesley Jackson: put in? Um, I don't think that there needs to be any new principles add to the book. They're already are a lot to learn within there, since it is divided into four parts. And I feel that they're all still relevant today also. And so, you know, they're pretty timeless.

Um, and Universal. And so I think that's why this book has been so popular for so long and it's withstood this test of time and it's generally regarded as one of the best in like the self-improvement or self-help, you know, category or genre of books. Um, and so, you know, I think it just kind of, the proof is in the pudding right there.

Yep.

[00:23:55] Andrew Gilley: Yeah. And you know, it's got real staying power, so. What do you struggle with? Uh, we talked a little bit about this, but you know, we can elaborate a little more. What principle do you struggle with applying in your life?

[00:24:08] Wesley Jackson: Yeah, I struggle the most when it comes to showing respect for other people's opinions, uh, and never saying that you're wrong.

So both of these are things that are said within the book, and so I feel like a lot of other people do too. I hope maybe I'm just trying to make myself feel better here, but, uh, especially in today's divisive political climate. And so, you know, I feel a bit less bad about this as a result of that, but I'll elaborate a little bit more on why I struggle with this principle in particular.

Um, it's because I have quite the attachment to like, You know what I consider truth and judgment is one of my key strengths. So while I don't often explicitly say like you are wrong to people, I do tend to, you know, enlighten people with. Uh, my research, um, and that usually is forming some sort of counterpoint to a statement that they made.

And so I can be like contrarian I guess, in that regard. Um, and at the end of the day though, the truth, I guess, you know, is seemingly irrelevant and that's like what the book pretty, pretty much corroborate corroborates as well. Um, it says, you know, like when dealing with people, remember that you are not dealing with creatures of logic.

You know, that's ourselves included. But with creatures bristling with prejudice and motivated by pride and vanity. And so to rephrase this a bit more nicely, you know, us humans rarely base ourselves around logic. Uh, we're much more often to base our perspectives and, you know, Thus who we are a lot of the times, uh, on feelings and emotions.

And so this is something that I've been coming to terms with more and more over time recently because I'm trying to work on continuing to repair those social ties that I've mentioned, uh, that I kind of neglected over the years. So what about you, Andrew? What do you struggle with the most in regards to the principles in the book?

[00:26:11] Andrew Gilley: Well, listening quietly is a skill that the book talks about a lot, and I, I tend, I tend to go one way or the other with it. Uh, uh, when I first read this, I would just like not talk at all back to people, which was. Also not, that's also not really what you want out of a conversation. There are some people like that.

Some people can go, wow, you're a great conversationalist and you haven't said a word in 20 minutes. That has happened to me before. But, uh, but I do have trouble letting people talk when I get excited. Um, If I start getting on a roll or excited, I have a tendency to cut people off. I'm not trying to be rude.

It's one I'm just excited, you know? And two is, I don't want to forget what I'm gonna say because I have this happen to me a lot where it's like, I am. I wanna think of what I've better say. And then like the conversation shifts to a new direction and I'm like, no, I can never say it again. And then, but at this point, I'm not really listening anymore.

Now I'm just thinking about what I wanna say and I, and when the conversation shifts, I'm like, no, no, no. It needs to go back. But it's gone. It's gone. I have to let it go. This is the sort of thing, it's um,

[00:27:18] Wesley Jackson: yeah. You have fomo. Yeah,

[00:27:21] Andrew Gilley: yeah, yeah. FOMO for conversations, uh, Yeah, you're, you're just focusing on how the conversation is going for you.

It's like this is the danger of a lot of the stuff in the book and you know, it's something I had to struggle with. You, you could overcorrect too. You can absolutely overcorrect. Um, so you kind of want to get the. You wanna thread the needle, you wanna get it right, you want to hit the arrow. You wanna kind of get right in the middle between, you know, talking too little and talking too much.

And you know, nobody's gonna be a perfect conversation partner every time. It's important to remember that too. You know, some days you're gonna be tired or angry or whatever, and you know, we're all human, so you're not gonna be knocking it out of the park every single time. But yeah, that's what I have to keep in mind a lot is.

To not just switch, uh uh, here's what it is. I would switch from listening mode to talking mode. Hmm. That that's what it was. And then, but it's important to. Not switch between modes, that's just, I'm just keeping myself centered in the conversation. It's, you know, harder to listen to the other person when you're just thinking about yourself, losing yourself in the cona, excuse me, conversation being really in that moment.

That's the really valuable part of it.

[00:28:34] Wesley Jackson: Yeah. So how would you, you know, a active listening, like just talking about in a nutshell aside, how can you generate within yourself this genuine interest in other people?

[00:28:48] Andrew Gilley: So I've a, I generally find people pretty interesting overall, um, because we're all weird. Um, everybody likes stuff in general, unless you're severely depressed, in which case I, I, I feel you.

But, um, everybody's got their interests. Everybody's got what they like, and it's fun to see what makes people tick, what makes people like what they like. And everybody's got a different story with that. Everybody's got a different kind of perspective and looking to people and figuring them out is an interesting thing.

We've all got something to learn and we've all got something to teach. It's not a. It's not a trans one for one transaction. It's a sharing of yourself with another person. That's what a conversation is, and the social exchange. Is the benefit at that point, because you know, we're animals. We have, you know, it's like two birds chirping at each other.

If it feels a social role. It makes us feel good to talk to other people. But you can't learn everything you need to learn from just reading about it. You have to. Share in other people's lived experiences. You can get some of that through books, but some of it's just through real conversations with other people, understanding the way other people live and their perspectives.

Learning about people whose lives you've never even thought about before. Um, you can find all sorts of things to when you really dig into what makes people interesting. Everybody's got something you'll, everybody's mind is something you'll never have direct access to. So it's really interesting to see how other people's minds work and churn out information and it's just, Living in a way where you're interested in everything makes you interesting too.

And I think that's a, I think that's a good way to go about it. Just be as interested as you can in the world and that'll make you interesting for as one side effect. But it'll also just fill your day to day a little bit with a little bit more mindfulness. So I would say just. Really finding out that unique thing about the person that makes them tick is super interesting to me and just, you know, remember that everybody.

Everybody's excited about something. Finding out what that thing is is really key to learning about people, and that's what I find really interesting.

[00:31:17] Wesley Jackson: Yeah, it makes it life more interesting as well as a result on a day-to-day basis, so Absolutely. I absolutely think it's a win-win situation there. Yeah. I also struggled greatly with this though in the past.

You know, I find that the best way, like you just said, to achieve this is through a lot of intentional practice, like you said, in particular with mindfulness. Mm-hmm. You know, each time you enter into a conversation with somebody, it's our job to try to do our best to serve first and foremost as a listener, not just what we're gonna get out of it and, you know, wait for them to ask us.

A question rather than an, and then, you know, answer it concisely rather than using it as an opportunity to go like, oh, this is my chance to talk. About whatever I want to talk about or myself, um, you know, don't use it as an opportunity to ramble or puff yourself up or trauma dump or things like that.

You know, go on these monologues. These are all things that I used to do for, for example, in the past. So, um, and you know, this is due to the fact that for a lot of my life in the past, I didn't speak up, and so I feel like I've been. Kind of messing up and overcompensating for it now, more recently, these years.

And, um, so I want to reiterate that this does require practice. And so that means, you know, work and it's gonna require, like Andrew said, a lot of mindfulness, uh, energy, and then effort at first. But the results do pay off tenfold, I would say, in the form of new connections. And, you know, don't enter into conversations each day thinking what is in this for me?

Just like, uh, to, to. Describe it in a nutshell, what Andrew and I have been trying to say is, approach each person and conversation or scenario in your life with compassionate, like curiosity. If you just do that, um, your life will really. Kind of change because your mindset will go from narrow to abundant and you will see a lot more opportunities around you in general, and your outlook on life will become a lot more positive.

So it's kind of just really, um, just that one mind shift, let's call it really changes things for a lot of people. Absolutely.

[00:33:48] Andrew Gilley: Yeah. That reframing mm-hmm. That perspective.

[00:33:51] Wesley Jackson: Speaking of change, Andrew, how would you say you can change people without offending them though?

[00:33:59] Andrew Gilley: Great segue. Um, so there's, I.

Essentially, if somebody isn't doing something, there's one of two things wrong. This is what both research and my life has told me. Uh, either, either one, the uh, You don't know how to start whatever task it is, or there's an emotion getting in the way. These are the two things that start that trigger procrastination, which I honestly still have a big problem with, but in a very different form than I used to when I was younger.

But either way, I've still, I've always struggled with procrastination in one way or another, and it's re that's really just a matter of some kind of block there. So if you want somebody to do something, And they're not doing it. It's usually not just cuz they're lazy or what, or incompetent. It's usually just cuz they don't know what to do and they're probably too afraid to ask.

And that's, I've been in that situation before, um, or you know, basic or you've got a lot of anxiety around it and so you're putting it off for fear of failure. That was probab, that was a major issue in my life for a very, very long time. Um, so. You job, your job in this sort of context is to keep the people you're changing or making do something, or however your job is to help them do that.

If you're like the leader of a team or whatever your job is to keep your people ready, your job is to help the people do what they need to do. And so, you know, You're a sarg, you're a sergeant in Lincoln analogy. You have to make sure your group is prepared and ready and it's on you if they aren't ready.

You can't just expect people to be independent by themselves. You have to help them be independent. They have to know what they're doing. That confidence in them has to be built up the, their confidence in themselves before you expand outward. So doing that. Cha. And so to answer the question directly, you change people.

By building them up, you create an environment for them to grow in. And from there, that's when you get people, you know, listening because they understand what you want and you listen to them too, because they understand what they're doing and what they want. So when you create that kind of lasting connection and that lasting, you know, shift, then.

You're doing a great job as a leader. You're doing better. You're keeping your people ready, and you're not gonna have to change them. You're not gonna have to make them do things. You're not going to offend them because they understand what's going on and how to improve and how to do the task.

[00:36:36] Wesley Jackson: Hmm. Yeah, something that I used to be really bad at back in the day was like, uh, and I still catch myself doing this sometimes too, is giving orders instead of asking questions.

Uh, this is like a leftover archetype of mine, uh, from my time when I was serving in multiple leadership roles. With U S D E sports, uh, you can attest to this, Andrew, I know since you were right there with me. Uh, this is in fact a principle straight from the book too, about how asking questions rather than giving orders, is a much faster track to getting what you want.

And more often than not, you know, what we want in most professional cases is for someone to do something for us, and that usually means to change whatever it is that they're doing at that exact moment. So when you ask someone to do something for you, you are asking them to change what they were just doing right then and there.

And so, In order to do that, the most effective way is not by telling them what to do, but rather just asking. Even if it is like a top-down, uh, hierarchical structure like that, it's a lot more effective to just, uh, like, like you said originally, Andrew, um, what was it? Be more, uh, what was you, you said a word?

Uh, be more like patient with people.

[00:37:58] Andrew Gilley: Uh, I'm not, I'm not sure. I, you should be more patient with people, but I don't, I don't think that's what you're looking for. I'm not sure what I said. Yeah.

[00:38:05] Wesley Jackson: Whatever. But, um, something like that, pretty much you were talking about being more just, uh, appreciative. I think it was of other people. That's what it was.

Mm-hmm. As, as, as a, as an end result. Um, okay. Cool. Anything else? Any questions? Um,

[00:38:24] Andrew Gilley: that's all I've got. Do we have any chat

[00:38:27] Wesley Jackson: questions? Yeah, we went through five of them.

[00:38:30] Andrew Gilley: Let's see. Anybody popping in with any questions?

I can't see any. All right,

[00:38:41] Wesley Jackson: well, okay. I will close this out then. So thank you for listening everybody. As a reminder, uh, all bonus book club episodes moving forward will be available to tier two patrons on Patreon only. And so tune in next Tuesday on your favorite podcast platform to hear a story from myself for the first episode in our series on how to build character and how it relates to habits.

If you want to help support us, please join our exclusive monthly book club on Patreon. Share the podcast with others, and don't forget to follow rates and review us on your favorite podcast platform. And hey, before you go, do you feel like you can benefit from a boost to your morale? Well then why not give our 7-Day Self-Confidence Challenge a go for only $7?

You'll get exclusive access to content that will help you determine your core values and strengths, reframe negative thought patterns, and break old habits to build new ones, all while setting realistic personal development goals. Links to our Patreon and the challenge can be found in the show notes and we will see you next week.

Bye-bye.