Episode 7 - Testifying Against El Chapo

I'm not a no Mexicans, you know, we're a foreign monster. I'm your own monster, born and raised in Chicago. And it's easy to blame people from other countries. I'm here in American cider. In order for this drug trafficking to exist, it takes complicity in all.

Levels, every aspect of life.

Immigrants, you know, our own people here, you know, contribute, even the agents getting you know.

But I think that.

Certain news media and everyone likes to blame the brown people. It's always someone else, you know, in this country. Is just the way it feels. Get to blame people.

Hey, it's the.

Descent and I'm Charlie Webster. This is Surviving l Chapo.

The Twins who brought down a drug lord Season two.

I recorded some hits in my time, but nothing. They brought down the drug kingpin.

Yet, the recording that Pete Flores made in November fifteen, two thousand and eight, was the only recording the government ever had to could pinned our chapel on drug trafficking in the US.

Almost exactly ten years later, Pete, known in the prison system only as PF two two seven zero one four two four, walked into a pat courtroom to testify against the man he betrayed, a man he once saw as family.

It took ten years from the Flores twins surrendering to the US authorities to get our chapel in.

Front of a jury.

A week before Christmas twenty eighteen, Pete sat in the witness stand nervously waiting for Hackeing Guzman Luera El Chappo to walk in.

Let's see that they're they're learning chap point, and my stomach is just like I can see him. He's like, you know, he has like a glose so dark soup kind of a red tie. He comes in and he's shaking his he'll turning his hands and everyone and he's waving to the sketch artist, you know, like I don't know why he's comfortable, and he's still not looking at me.

He's just like, you know, seeing him.

Really he looks very pale to me, like I've used to see him in his content.

He looks pale.

He has harry and he's kind of like we can't have the tenth same text airing negat It just doesn't come right to the side, you know, I can see that he just looks like funny to me, you know, like I'm getting glimpses of him and he smiling, saying, hurt everybody. Then he comes and he turns wrong and he stares right at me. I looked back at him. I'm looking at him and he's standing me. He looks

He's just staring at me the whole time. He wouldn't stop staring.

So then I see the courts filling up and all the prosecutors are there, and you know it's busy, and they bring in like the the legal secretary gets the judge's clerk. That's the first time when the judge comes in and we all rise, and I remember standing up and everyone's staying at it, like everyone's just waiting for us to look at each other, you know, to kind of like see what we do our interaction. He had that same serious face on him that he has a real black stare. I'll never forget that.

How did it make you feel? Especially when he went like like you tell you, like, what do you think?

That? Was?

Crossed my mind? Like what the hell does that mean?

Honestly, I got to a point where I started getting little fusher the way I felt like, man, you know, like I'm past this, you know, scary, like I can't tell you like scared, like I'm not like I was scared of him alone.

I'm saying, like, but everything he represents, yea, and everything that party is.

A little bit big.

But really I think that it was internal of what I did, you know, what I was a part of what I turned my back on and it seems to be in my face again and the worst possible way, and thinking like, yeah, man, like you.

One day night, you probably do some horrific things if you had to change.

Did you feel guilty?

Guilty?

Mm, get guilty about the fact that you couperate against him.

I didn't feel good being there, But he wasn't gonna feel sorry for me, you know. If he had the chance, he would have killed me or like, he would have done worse things.

That's the truth. That's not justifying.

I'm just saying, like, but it was so ugly and just to be in that court room, be in a situation. And if you would have told me that that thing, you could do it a year more, an avoided two years and more to avoid it. I would have foosen to do two more years and avoid that, yeah, or maybe longer. Who knows that you would My wife would have probably killed me. Should have belinked you about it, you know, But they just they stays with me like I'm still like reliving in it being me like ugly feeling.

Of who I had, and I'm answering your questions.

But not taking them all the way in, you know what I'm saying, Like it's kind of like I'm still having recovered from the this feeling of them just staring at you, just staring at you down stop and part comfortable with that, you know, when they admiring he was wanting, but when they're just staring at.

You, judging you, and you're like, is it hard to know why to put your own eyes?

Yeah?

Yeah, you look around, I'm looking at I'm trying not to stare at you know, nothing you know and everything at the same time, you know, but it's hard not to. And then looking over Chap he's still staring at you. And then he's whispering to the laws, you know, beside him, and I can see the translators facing him, and I

Yeah, so you were saying the man the man to to people like that.

I mean, my brother, and I wouldn't say that caravel, you know then, you know, you know, oh yeah, like with respect. You know. A couple of times I'm like, I'm messing up a little bit because I'm nervous, and a couple of times, I mean kind of the prosecutor kind of messes up his question a little bit.

And it's not boutique. Everything we went through was like out the window.

So when I talk about things like my crimes and me testifying and cooperating gainst you know, so many people, and that was hard. I was embarrassed because we were talking about the crimes that committed again in my world. You know, they praise you for the bad stuff, you know, but you know eyes of very regular people.

It's like.

And you're telling your stories to these people or judging you, and it's it's a lot of emotions you deal with, you know. I try to tell my story like as normal as I could, bet but it's not normal, and just answer the question and move on the conversations of you know, how he started and my dad and all that comes up, and the kind of stays with you know,

Like in the back of the land.

That no, that's the king the car keys, Oh those keyters like you know, laughing, you know, the stuff like that. You know, it was like at the moment, I'm trying to describe a situation as best as I could, and the whole time he's staying at me. One of the weirdest things that I felt while I was out there, and besides the nervousness and I wanted to throw up right there, was that the prosecutor pulled out of evidence back and he holds it up with both hands.

Do you see this? And it's much like evidence, and he's holding it up for the whole courtroom to see.

The prosecutor is holding it up and and he's like permission to approach the witness he called it. He puts the scissors on my right in front of him. He grabs the cisor back and he cuts the envelope open and I could see it's like a plastic bag and some cellophane or something wrapped up, and he's going through the bag and he goes out.

A phone and he's like here.

He hands it to me, and after all, in years or not, I like a phone in my he gives me a phone Because that little moment, I'm lost, like I'm looking at the phone like, wow, I wonder if I could call Avian on it.

But it's the phone that that chap called me. Then I had probleb with me.

And it's like I couldn't get over that, like that I'm holding this phone again, you know after so long.

That was just like shocking to me. And the things like that phone signed even.

Stright ten years and he's like, can you turn it on? Yeah, that's so it's not gonna work. It be the end of a ten years then. But they have all put up on the screen. They have the the call list and all that, and I remember I would always put me like thore my own number on the phone, just okase that needed it, and I had stored signor I put Sennora as a contact on the number you called me. And then the call log and they went just randomly went through some numbers and the like who's you know,

Like yeah, and what is it? I'm like, it's the number, it's the number for Empire Carpeting Fiday day two three hundred Empire.

Yeah, I had to explain that when I would set up these phones, like new phone burning phones that would just to check the phone make sure they're working like internationally, that I would call Empire carpeting.

I don't care what time it was. I just called.

Empire calls there your knife.

And as soon as I heard the Empire's carpeting whatever, a little recording and all my numbers would that I set up would have this three and two eight two three hundred, and they all laughed.

You know, So what did that tell you when you did that? I told you that the frame works. So every time you call that number of different perm Yeah, the.

Phone, the phone was working properly and I could give it away to someone. And and that was the phone that the chapel called me, and I recorded the conversation with.

H.

I think that that that was like towards the end of that of the evening, like it was getting late and we're going to bring till the next day, and I was just like exhausted and tired of being nervous and sick and everything.

I remember when we get up, I don't even turn around just the open door. I just walk up, go back to the.

Jerry room, and my prosecutor comes in, like, you're doing great, You're doing great, don't worry about it.

You know tomorrow will continue.

We should finish up by tomorrow sometime in the afternoon, but we're gonna start early.

So by the time I get back to the isn't that evening?

Like everyone knows that. Just Bro, we see you on TV. You testified, blah blah blah. Yeah, allow the news and don't local news and what was your own reaction. I didn't want to talk about it. I just want to call my family, my kills and check on the meal and try to get some sleep.

I remember the next thing, it was just even a little more nervous iking thinking that and eventually we're gonna come to cross examination, you know, yeah, expecting the word from me, Like, if it's hard to do it with the people that you've gotten comfortable with, can I imagine doing it with people who are there to attack you. Yeah.

I remember thinking to my head like, regardless of what anyone says, I mean, you could say whatever you want about me, and I'm not I enjoy I made mistakes and the baby A Bentley, the billboard and all those things, and and I was in trouble while I was in prison, did no different things. And that's his voice on that recording. There was a massive amount of the drug season by the government money. And you can't get away from that. You know. It's hard to like to tell, you know,

That's it.

So we go back the next day, same routine, you know, and same nerves. Nothing got easier. A lot of people man just packed. Everyone just in there, you know. And those days I went wife was in a quirtum. There's only turn today. His wife was in a quareum. We kind of finish off, like some of my testimony for the governmently they placed some tas.

Of course we get to the tips a yeah, so much.

I mean, because they're telling you, like, what does it mean when you said this to him and said that Tom, and you're explaining.

Tom Pete had to explain to an anonymous Durry exactly what the discussion on the tapes meant and how he had to lie to El Chapo to keep.

Him on the phone.

The call was the smoking gun, the evidence that demonstrated El Chappo's connection to the supply of drugs coming into the US.

Pete had to lie about the quality of.

A shipment of heroin he'd received, saying it was a bad batch, so that El Chapo wouldn't be suspicious about why Pete was asking for more.

So soon imagine if.

How you.

He goes she was a.

Girl thinking, so I had a like, explained to the girl.

I already picked him up, but I wanted to tell you that I wanted to renegotiate the practice. It was weird because I already had them on mind possession.

You know, Okay, just get them, yeah, wins, don't care.

But he was open to it, you know. And I had a light and explained him that.

I had received very poor quality killed the heroine and doubt his were super good. In reality, all the heroines we picked up was over ninety pure.

And he hurted me out. And I remember.

Discussing with him that not only those twenty kilos of here when I had already picked up but telling him, look, if you could send me like forty a month, that would work fine. And I need some right now, do you have something? He's like, Look, I don't have some right now, but next week got gimmt it. And me having to say, well, I was lying to him. It just gave him to talk about it right in front of his face was not easy. I felt sh like wrong,

Was he still staring at you?

Yeah, he was staring at me the whole time.

I could see him like mo moving his lips around. He never stopped staring at me. Her Glass speak to his attorneys and the without taking his gaze off of me. He didn't win any star contest. And for maybe they've bellion cancers and you want you want again, I'm playing with my kids sometimes. Yeah, And you know that was hard going to that whole conversation explaining and then only that was I was wondering what he was thinking, what he was feeling about that.

Assistant US Attorney Adam Fels led Pete's questioning, then turned him over to the defense to be cross examined. Jay's ex attorney, Jeffrey Littman, was not allowed to cross examine Pete because of the conflict of interest, so Instead, another of El Chapo's three man defense teams stepped up, William Papora.

Okay, here we go. I'm like, okay, this is the rule. This is now, we're really getting into this. His defense was that I somehow altered and take myself. I remember feel like you should give Chape the money back. You knew this was coming for years, and that's how you could have said.

You've claimed me.

Back to Rolling Stone interview that Ruins magazine interview with Champagne, Yeah, like Metro it if the voice is sounded exactly alike, I'm mgnon.

I just thought it was a weak argument.

The focus of El Chapo's defense was that it wasn't El Chapo's voice on the recording that Pete made, and that there was a conspiracy against him. Everyone else was corrupt, including US drug agents and even two Mexican presidents. His defense claimed that El Mayo was the actual boss of the Cineloa cartel and had overseen operations for the last two decades, and that actually El Chapo was a nobody with a second grade education and for years had just been used as escapegoats.

The argument that travel was in the real boss, that's dressing anything. It's Mario Sambala. I'm trying to explain something. I believe that they're both the Roal boss and that they ran the organization with my brother and I did that whatever it was they benefited. Both was and whether you talk to my brother, you talk to me, it

The defense was throwing everything they could at Pete, even questioning him about the deal he got for his cooperation. They specifically brought up the fact that it's part of his cooperation, his wife, Viv received an immunity deal, which meant that she couldn't be charged for anything relating to her husband's criminal activity.

I'm quite it probably my wife and immunity, like your wife was in charge. No, she wasn't. She was given immunity because she wasn't charged for a reason.

You know.

We we have the debate out.

I don't think that anybody would come in to cooperate and not protect her own family at.

First, and they brought up one of the three bees, the baby, and how Viv became pregnant while Pete was in prison.

When he started trying to bring up the pregnancy things, everyone laughed like, like you should so, like how long. I'm like, it wasn't long, I promise you. Everyone's laughing. You know, I'm a man in prison with a chance to go and be with his wife. How many little things, you know, like that they would bring up that felt had no relevance to helping the case, you know, But I guess he has to try something. And there's a

Adam Fels, the lead prosecutor, wrote that letter to Judge Ruben Castillo, requesting a sentence reduction for the twins because of how great they'd be as cooperators. US attorneys Adam Fels, Thomas Shakeshaft, and Michael Ferrara had been with the twins from the beginning, often spending more time with Jay and Pete over the past decade than their own family, and all advocated for the shorter recommendation of the twins sentence.

The sentencing reduction was denied.

Pete didn't get any further benefit for testifying in court against El Chapo.

Leaving there and just thinking I'm glad, I God throw it if I did the right thing, and thinking like that, I thought it was behind me, and it's.

Like, hey, did you feel like it was done?

Then you know, it's like you sell something for a price and then you got to keep coming back in pain somewhere. It's not easy, man, This wasn't an easy situation with my brother and I and for our family. It's took a humong as hmongers tons and the price rep is huge.

How un did chapoget I.

Think our life sentence plus thirty years?

The trial against El Chapo lasted three months. He was sentenced on July seventeenth, twenty nineteen, to life in prison plus thirty years, and was ordered to pay twelve point six billion dollars in forfeiture. It took thirty one different agencies worldwide to take l Chapo down. He's now in ADX Florence Administrative Maximum Penitentiary known as Supermax in Colorado.

You shower and eat in your cell. Meals are slid through small holes, so.

You have no contact with anyone and you only get one fifteen minute phone call a month. Inmates have been diagnosed with insanity while being incarcerated there. It's considered escape proof. No one has ever escaped. While he may not get to meet them, El Chapo shares a prism with some of the worst of the worst criminals, the Boston Marathon bomber, the Atlanta Olympics bomber, the World Trade Center bomber, and the co founder of al Qaeda, an advisor to Bin

The latest on COVID nineteen virus. The updates on our response to the COVID nineteen pandemic.

Things are moving very very quickly.

When it comes to the coronavirus, the coronavirus outbreak. Coronavirus is a critical governmental situation.

It's a public health crisis.

The Federal Prison Bureau is reporting which facilities have, how many coronavirus cases and the death set those facilities.

Nearly four hundred and fifty inmates currently have confirmed positive lab for COVID. Sadly, there have been fifteen COVID nineteen related and make deaths.

I was so thankful for not being's sake, for being held to most of my time in prison, and for me to get to that point in Queen Sick, especially during COVID just made everything even harder.

And Jay almost inside in prison. You know, he spent fifty six days in the hospital. He had three surgeries.

Surviving l Chapo The Twins Who Brought Down a Drug Lord.

Season two is hosted by Curtis fifty cent Jackson and me Charlie Webster. Produced by myself and Jackson mcclennan. Assistant producer and research support by Kasey Hurtz, Edit and sound design by Nico Polella.

Theme music and original score by Ryan Sorenson.

It's executive produced by Curtis fifty cent Jackson and me Charlie Webster. Curtis fifty cent Jackson presents a Lionsgate Sound and G Unit audio production exclusively for iHeart podcasts, Never Danger