At the time, there's a war going on. It just started. They're making everybody pick aside yes, me and or brother card in the middle between two. At that time, we're the biggest drug card tells in the world, the most powerful, the most dead. At least, card tells. It's not somebody telling you like you're in a game. It's the boss telling you, Hey, if I find out that you're receiving
it one kid from you're gonna have to answer. Then not only that, he's they're going to say, and all your little friends that you had that we know you have. I want some ticket cruds. Some of these people are my friends. Some of the people I'm like, I'm closer and you have that. On top of me cooperating the pressure of that or were going on, we're still selling drugs. Mean, we're still playing cops and robbers every day. The government
had a hard time understand. If I tell them don't sell the more drugs to me, they're gonna think these duds picked to the other side. It's a ward. They don't play fair. If we sent our wives away, we sent our family away, and then they come into like, well where is the feminine? Something wrong? We put them in that situation. At the same time, it's like both our wives are pregnant while we've been cooperating. The face with the strangest expect the strangest things to happen is
right here are children a month apart. Who does that? Who puts their family their kids? Ever we meet the mistake of them knowing that we're family man, knowing that we're always with our wives. You guys imagined like that, what am I doing carrying that with you? That what you're doing your betraying everyone, you everything, everything that you ever know and everything that you work for, everything, all
the people around you, your whole life. We're keeping stuff from my own family, our wives, us for we're the only people that knew what we were doing. We don't try anyone because Christia trustworthy. Second, because if we told those people we like, we were scared that they were going to try to change your mind because it didn't benefit anyone. But I've got this for the st Jackson and I'm Charlie Webster. And then this is surviving no chapel.
It's once you brought down the drug woman, getting out of the cartel and changing your life is not as simple as just walking away. Every path had the potential to take away the twins life one way or another. Agent family have a way of bringing your priorities into perspective. Breaking the cycle of their family history, stopping themselves from repeating what their father did to them was going to be a monumental task. It all goes back to film because that bond that keeps you going, you want to
be better for the people you love. It feard a better life for them, no matter what it takes. Ultimately, that was what pushed the brothers to do what they had to do. Going to meet the FED, We're in a hotel and of course we discuss what I was interested in getting the best deal possible, and they were looking at me like I was crazy. I do remember like my brother call him, I want to know details, and I remember him saying, Bro, they don't know what
the fuck they're doing. They're loves and just loves. I don't know if this is a good idea. That didn't make us froger. We were in another country with no protection whatsoever, and it was just a very scary feeling, I think for all of us because we didn't realize that the US didn't have any jurisdiction in Mexico and that they would basically be on their own and they would basically have to do everything as if the US wasn't involved. And I think that's what was more of
the scary part. Knowing how innovative that the Seno Cartel was was very frightening, just because you know, they had people that they would hire, like I t people that would drive around and they would pick up phone conversations from the airwaves to make sure that nobody was telling cooperation is like that equals death. You're in great thanks and there's no guarantee, and I just was, I think scared for our lives. It was like so surreal. I knew there was no turning back, and that to me
was scary in itself. When Jay and Peter were meeting with agents, but that didn't sit well with me because I felt like somebody was going to find out and we're kind of going back and forth, kind of just sharing information. I remember we met when am I said, listen, couple and my call. You want me to go see them? You guys want to come. One of them had all tattoo, looked like a biker and at that time there's like Canadians there, so like, man, you look like they don't
even think you're agent. You could come with me. I'm gonna say that you're my you're my Canadian customer. And they're like absolutely not, that would never happen. I guess they didn't trust me, like I was not ever going to try to put on your harm's way. I mean I was getting that bold. I guess getting frustrated. So we'll meet with them and just give information. We had give him a couple of loads and just talked to him about the business. It was just stressful, really really stressful,
and it was very very stressful. I remember like at the time when I'm talking to agents and we were like a little deeper into our cooperation and they're like I'm gonna give your number to this agent and I do not give my number to no one. I don't want to know one to know him doing this. And sadly,
like there was a cooperator who didn't make it. We come to find out that there was a Columbian man that was cooperating with the and they had found out about it against shop against our against Yeah, they had a lot of people on the payer of a lot of higher ups in the government and had a lot of higher rooms the government and the Mexican Mexican government had these individuals are working together on special teams with with the U. S. Government. Their feedum information there in
turn feeding information to the cartel. And this is at the very top. Sure at that time we're working on the deal and cocaine it's a little bit hard to get. And then he's on the run. They have one bad on the run at the time our trans they're kicking out every door everywhere he stays. They're like, I don't know, you know, like they're hat on his tail. And I remember the cause and say, look, I got five tons coming. Who called you? And the people like, I got five tons?
You tell me how much you want to buy all these And we're like, well, let me see how much money we can get together. So we end up purchasing like a thousand forty kiddos. I record those cars and the load got through and I purchased a thousand kil loads of that. Well, I turned that over to the FEDS and we are not supposed to purchase it from Beltrand. Now I'm playing both sides at this. I have to Yeah, I took that risk because in order to for me, not only to complete my cooperation, I had to keep
myself alive. It was I said, oh my god, it's just a nightmare. There's a nightmare. I'll be thinking like I'm the FEDS travel my r thurs done. Like you're trying to just satisfy everyone and risking at all every day. I can't even tell you in words what it was like. At the same time, I have my baby coming. He was a zombie for sure. I couldn't eat, really wasn't present, trying to juggle so many things. And at the same time my brother brought the idea. He brought the idea
to the table. Then he would disappear on me. I'd be so piste off at him, man, like, bro, like you gotta help me. What do you mean you did? Like I hate to see it like that. That's when I feel like I was saying that he didn't like the idea of like recording the people. Once that hit home, it was like, it wasn't the part you wanted to entertain.
It's just so ugly of a time. I worked so hard, man, just to to do everything I could help the government order, you know, and turn to help ourselves in the future. I used to feel sometimes the government didn't do I couldn't have job to put the case together, you know, if we're out there on our own, no help, like no guaranteed. There was like no Remember the twelve I remember it being a nice, chilly November day in Mexico. We had all the people with us. I don't remember.
I've been expecting to call from the chapel form like a day or two, and I had his phone in my pocket. I remember it was a white phone and I had the recording out of the pocket. At that time. I was carrying the recorder around. We're going to eat and wearing a cowboy with the trucks me the like followers are going up take and the Mexican government sending up the police present and an a normal day. You know, you're send to look out. Tell you how it looks
on this day. It was just like Sunday or something. We're gonna go, you know, we're gonna have a dimeing meal and we're passing up like we're getting to like a popular place and Gualahara, you know, they call that that glory to me, and I see that day that they have a military checkpoint, like a whole cop checkpoint with the minitary and I'm with the Cowboy and I had to record in my pocket, and I'm like like, that's all I need for them to pull me over
and I have to record in my pocket. Don't just stop anywhere and put a checkpoint and they'll just stop pulling cars over. I remember they see me and they're like they start telling to pull over, and I kind of like pulled to the side. I'm like, I'm panic. I'm like a little panning moll. I kind of pulled aside, but there's like a a long line of the cars that already have pulled over. I kind of pulled off to the side and I just I just took off and they didn't come. Thank you God. I was like,
thank you God, they didn't come. If it have found the record, is what do you think about it? Have happened three cords of the work for the cartel? They either one they worked like I tell the other they actually really good cops and they're turning me in, like why do you have recorded? You know? I had to keep in the car, like it was just oh my little moments where just one after another. Not too long
after that, I make another recording. I turned in a load of heroin the Government's allowed me to pay for these loads with our own cats. I give the government the money and the process of money and then turn it into the cartel, and they're documented. They're gonna document all this, so my workers don't know that I'm cooperative. So I tell them. I'm on the phone to Age and saying, look, we're gonna handle all the money at this place at this time. And then you're like, okay,
let me see if I get my team there. Okay, we got a team there. So they're just document that they're seeing this exchange of money. Would scare me is that when I would send my career that he never noticed that the federal there. And that made me feel like how vulnerable this operation can be. He doesn't realize that the father watch him. I know they're watching them. You know. They turned over the money to the car tells carrier turning the money. Seven minutes later, my phone rings.
It's Chapel Miles like Compoli, like their head of security. He's like, listen, there's something fucking funny, man. You guys rats the guys calling me seeing that. You know there's a car following that. The cops are following it, They're on him. I was like, like, what the fund are you talking about? And I'm calling my working on the radio and I'm letting him here. I'm like, hey, did you see a car? Did you give the money money? And he's like, give him money left? Did you see
anyone following? Yeah? I seen him on the street. I went my way. He one head that makes anyone following you. I know that they're following him. I'm like, I don't know why you're saying there, like there's something funny here, man, I said, let me call you back. I'll never forget that. Then, sure enough, I think on this drop off, the DA has a helicopter, has a couple of cards. They're following
the car back with the money. You usually ever recorded that a call like that, and I couldn't because he caught me off guard. And I picked up the phone and was like, hey, listen, motherfucker, they're fucking follow my guy. Now, you're fucking snitch or what the fuck swallowed? I was like, we're fucking talking to you like that. You asked me
to do you the favorite now I'm the snitch. I said that I'm gonna talk to my dad about this, like oh no, no, no, no, just let me just see man, maybe it's not you get off the phone love, Like whoa ship. I'm passed by that time, Like our relationship with the agents already have kind of like like kind of you know, you're talking to something, we'll talk about life, like you know we're talking about the case
or you know, with different agents. Hey, you remember this time and how do you guys do this like or whatever cases? And I remember calling back and said what the I'm like literally probably even got emotional, like my family is here like a bucket, putting my life in danger over twenty fucking kids. Whatever the funk? I was just like fun funck who knows, just screaming call it off, call it off, call it off. And I'm like shock, like what's happening? Like listening mostly like begging them in
the like worst way. What did they say? Myself? Like hold on them like gays, let me see them and find out. I did feel a betrayed by then, like there's no reason why you're gonna have to put my life and you don't have to do it. Need damn things like I'm right here, I'm helping you guys. And then I remember calling it chap On's head of security back and the look, I don't know what to tell you. My guy is good. I'm gonna tell him to keep take a couple of spins and see what happens, you know.
And then he was like, look, man, there's something funny. All right. You're like, I'm gonna tell you something, right not that money ain't gonna be coming until it gets in my hats, so you're responsible for it. And then I remember a couple of days later, I just follow up, but I'm like, hey, so did you get the money? Everything good? He's like, yeah, everything was good, man, but like weird, like and ten moments were driving me crazy? How could you sleep good at night? How did you
you couldn't? I think I lost. I had lost Peter already when he started his cooperation. Was there ever a time joining that seven or eight months that you thought they'd sist you the carteler's sist you, sis? It was nerve wracking. Once I was cooperative. I remember this one time like it was in October September. October they said they wanted both of us to go, and he would call them like at the time, they'll be like senanay, so they want to see you, and I understand there
was a chapel my, we're asking to see us. I was like, we both can't go, you know, explain to the lieutenant and he let me call you back. Okay, why don't you guys to come, But you gotta tell me one thing. You're gonna be here and you better be here. I was like, let me check some flights and I'm talking to my brothers like broh man, I don't know. I don't know what to do that they can't say anyone to see us. And I was like, look, let me ask them for some cocaine. If they give
it to us, then we're good. If they say no, then sounds the draw. But you do not think then they could be tricking you. Yeah, but they don't want to trick you and give you some kids. So if they gave you coke, it was a way to know that they hadn't figured you out. Yeah, because then now the wouldn't blame Now, come see me and then we'll talk. They would have been like, Okay, we'll be there probably and be like we gotta go. You know, I remember
asking them for the cokae. I'm like, I asked them for like a larger mind, like hey, let me see what I have. And he tells me like, yeah, we have three engine eating What if I give me the rest of a couple of days. I was like, okay, great, when can I pick him up? Well, you can pick him up tomorrow, you on today, And I felt okay. I felt that tends like we'll see what he says and then you know at that time, you know I'm talking that he's texting me some stuff and I'm like
a brother, then you could go. But it was still nervous, like sending my brother, you know, J went. He was there and everybody was there during that meeting. There was a lot of main cretoil. You know. My brother was snapping pictures. I can't believe, like, bro, like why would you do that? Why would you risk it? I think it's not coming. They will let you keep your phone. So that was like a major like normal, like why would you do that? Sometimes I would record stuff on
my phone, take like pictures. I remember one time I took so many good pictures that something happened where I got nervous, and I started to raising the pictures like I don't want to be like, why are you taking pictures? My wife is right here. I think we talked about it and sometimes should be like how did you do that? This one time where they had a table and they have all kinds of stuff on top of the table, bades and stuff, and I said, we're like, I'll come
some nervous here. I'm like, I'm most definite meat. I'm gonna use your phone. I gotta call you chicken, you know, had chicken with my wife. Didn't laugh about that, and I grabbed the phone, satellite phones and now now I would buy a brand new phones so I could actually I'll buy a brand new phone that I had with me, you know, to be able to talk to Peter to like that. So I moved by branch Pools just for
those visits. I have their phone number. You know, I have no service on my phone, so I had lass phone. I call the number on the satellite phone. Ever, ring I'll hang up was not working. I'll go the next phone, hang up. I try to get all the phones there. I wouldn't be like if I see you don't have the foes that I don't know if not going through them to see your phone. Now I have all their phone numbers. That was nerve wracking because he's there using every phone they I always did it though, so it
wasn't like something you're not scared they'd be suspicious. I always did it, and I was calling my wife's phone. It's like I was calling the agent. But I was just registering all the numbers so I could give it to the government. M h. People will travel my art through. But I don't care who you are. They're just regular men, selfish people. They're not you know, they're not gods. They're now. They're regularly corrupt as people. They want to care about themselves.
They will bend and break every rule and betray you and kill you and not care about you. Honest. It was funny. They would do anything to say their old family, cooperate, sell out their main best friend, to say their own family, and then they want to kill you because you do the same for years. You cann't eat, I cann't sleep.
So many things to think about and I live with every month every day to try that like that called my only Escapables, just a couple of moments of my wife that could get and then bring me reminded of what I'm gonna do. It was just so dreadful to just wake up, so scary to go to sleep, and then you know the people who depending on I was going to turn my back on them. Everything we work so hard to build. Now you're building a big old prison around yourself and then you have to knock it
down so hard to loan to another prison. I wasn't patting sorry for myself. I was just mad at myself, like this is what I did. At the same time, I felt like some kind of like Okay, what I could do. I did. I had to tell my family out to everything I could do to put myself inca wish. I did it every day I could have done. For the government, I went above and beyond. There's nothing more that I could at that point. I gave them millions
of dollars. I turn the people turn, enjoying and turning everything. I did everything in my power. I went above and beyond help build this case. From practically along my brother and I were alone. It took word to me we were to sacrifice, and took kind's bless instance just be here to take. I just still think it was the right decisions. Be honest. Now you talked to me on Monday, I tell you yes to them, I tak You know, nine months of recording deals with the lieutenants of the
cartel certainly help the FEDS put together their case. But there was one major piece of evidence. They needed a call with Chapeau himself. It's something that until now have been impossible for anybody to get. I remember I missed the first call. I missed the call and call me. I remember I was standing there, like not even my brother standing there. I dropped my bag and I ran
back to the house. The girls are there and the senior I'm turning out, like bollow me up stair because it was like the people in the house of the time, you know, just running away, like just trying to get away to get a quiet space. I was so nervous, and not of course to me to recording, but of what was to come, What did this mean for my life?
Like it was an ugly feeling, you know, like getting the recorder out and the only thing the fence that giving me like earpiece with a microphone, and you know when you put the phone to your ear you can hear and then they can record. I remember putting it to my and like the secretary answered, I'm like, oh, it's the twin gid. Where were you in the house Lusters? I remember, and we were in the first stroom and
I remember lacking the doors, like right there in your face. Yeah, And I'm like, I don't even know what to say. I remember him saying, amigo, like hearing his voice again, Yeah, I don't want, I don't want. The call with Chapo was the one chance that Twins had to prove that they were telling the truth to the U. S. Government. It was the only ticket out there. I've depended on this one core. Without the recording, the vital piece of evidence the FEDS needed, they wouldn't have been able to
make a deal. All they had to do was get chapout to confess without raising any suspicion at all from the world's most notorious and violent drug boss, the man who personally admitted to executing at least two thousand people himself. Easy, right,
I felt, Okay, I did. I had to get over that and just used this lie about king a cheaper number and that and the heroine the phone calls, what else telling them of the truth that I mean him had herald working relationship that he knew that might office was in Chicago and there that he had sat drugs for me and cons and drugs for me to my brother and there they was like you know, we're working
together to move these drugs and SLOM. I understood that that time that to make the conversation good is that we we talked about future shipments and pass ones. That was like a big moment, you know. I remember thinking like this is like my way, my ticket home. One day, I remember getting another phone and just playing back the conversation, like over the anticipation, I hope I got it, like nervous, did we get it? Imagined we did it? Man, you had a call to Apple back there. Could we do
this again? This is the thing called go through your mind, like playing the conversation again and thinking like I can't lose this, this recording on our other phone and remember like here you could reread corded, you know, like copied on your phone too, like they around off my other phone, and then thinking like we're not gonna give it to the sets until we make a deal. It was those little troubles, a little struggles that you you're facing all
those perils of cooperating, right. People really don't know, like imagine every day it was like this for all those months and having our family and being stressful, and again it's something that that we had to we had to do. We put ourselves in that position. I will say, I think for all those years that we sold drugs, those months of cooperating, in my head, I was like, we're even, you know, we're even. Like I didn't risk myself this much, you know. When I was like suddenly the drugs, remember
the put our life at Verst doing all this. I remember like talking to the fans and I was like I got it, Like what I got to call my own chapol and like get the funk out of like for real, like you wanna hear it. It was like late and they're like, probably don't funk around me, Like you really got it? I got it. Then remember just them calling me, calling me our planet's ha gonna work. They wanted to that fucking round it bring it because meet us where we had been meeting before. In the subdivision.
It's like a big as oak trip. Like the street lights. It was just like a dark spot in this subdivision. That wasn't comfortable with meeting it because other people lived there. But you know my colonly complains so much. Go part behind, you know this land cruiser and bullet problem and cruiser with diplomatic plates. I'm jumping in the carp how we're up and you know, you know they just shoot me, just kill me? That would you want me to just die?
Just tell me like in cartel world, you know, literally behind enemy lines, like just doing that and they're nervous. Thing of looking around that nervous back around my palms, canna swear like things like cold like sweat, you know, on your foreheads, like mad, I just see that. I'm angry that you keep putting in this situations. I remember going and taking the record and be like I don't know this this you better be there that they you better be there and my sentence and tell them what
I did to get this. Oh, no problem, man, We're all gonna be like and you just hand it over and then what's remember them? Like, what's next? Are they gonna indicated? Make sure it's it's his voice. But it had been pretty fast. Literally we're like with midnight one in the morning when it comes to back, we got a match. It's it was late in the night. I remember they called. They confirmed that it was authentic recording. I could hear scream, cham, I can celebrated celebration. I
was still taken back. I remember the prositat that would tell me, I promise you I'll be doing cart wheels in summer sults and your sentence no something that I'll be like, I'll do cart wheels and backflips. My brother I had the only legal recording the chopol was mom they ever had h we didn't have a plan. Two weeks after the top of recording. Now we're gonna call it to Sunday. Our attorney wants about to us. It's early,
right ten, And then in the morning. You remember he said, you know, the US attorney wants to talk to you. He said he wants you guys to train yourselves in today. I won't even be looking to it like wow, real
hit us? Huh what? Just like that? After around nine months of recording and cooperating with the US government, it was time, the twins were given two hours to meet back under the big oak tree in the middle of the subdivision and finally hand themselves over the rest of their family had been in the dark for months, but as soon as the cartel found out about what Pete and Jay were up to, they would come for their family. So they had to drop the bombshell of what was
about to happen. And it started with the man who brought them into this life in the first place, their father. I think it was a higher thing I had to do was to place my father. You could be a killer, you could be whatever. You're not going to be a thief, and you're not going to be a queer. And the most important one, you're never gonna be a snitch. M I had to light him mean until he came up with this. I to try to soften, softening up a
little bit. We go to his house that we bottom regardless, he lived a great life right his streaming in dollar house, brand new cards. I said, we have to talk, and without my mom. It was hard, like I didn't even know how to say it, and I don't even know who We even spoke, but I said, uh, I did mention. I said that the government found us. He said what I said, the government found us. They've been watching that. They know exactly where you live. You know where we
all live. He's like, are you serious? I said, he said, come on, let's go. You know he's walking a kay, let's go. Let's call it. No, it's over, there's no more running. He said, you could go, and I said. They knocked on the door and they said, your life is going to be in danger anyway, so we're going to arrest you or you have a chance you can popery. He look, He said, what and what do you say? I said, we'll cooperate. I cannot put my family in danger.
He said, you cooperate? He said, what type of fucking men are you? Cooperate? He said demanding people tell you they will hunt you, they will here you. You could never survive going to custom. How could you do? You know what the funk you're doing? And I'm saying not even about it as about of family. He's a fuck um. There's a fucking cowards. I raised fucking women. He said, Oh, now you guys, wanna you know something, just like you know who top womire? I remember, like I never like
talking about it to my dad. I know who they are and it was going to be near them. I want you met every fucking day you could look up to you, admire you do whatever you want. I'm not. And he said, they're giving a chance to leave. Do it for us. You never did anything for us. You put as you gave us this life up, just saying just give us a chance. Let's just leave. He said I can't. I said, they're willing to forgive you, and they're willing to give you a Lisa that hurt that
like herd. I'm like he looked like them. You guys with that polarity. You know, we were on tears, all of us. My father was like I could fro his anger. And then I said, do it for us, Please just do it for us. Be mad, do whatever you want, but just do it for us. And I said, me and my brother going in prison, you were the same one. Just kept nodding yourself. It's just like I'm don't doing
my son. What you're about to hear is the full unedited, two minutes fifty and second conversation that people recorded with El Chapo that was played in court during El Chappo's trial in two thousand and eighteen. Pete begins by asking how Chappo is, and Chappa responds with fine, nice talking to you. How is your brother? For an English translation, Go to Lionsgate Sound dot com. Damn yeah here, yeah, I think we'll check a list on the sinkoles tinko you lit. You can mess for words on the pause
in Quintapo. You think we'll check a list of helois. He came under my mouth's voice. However, that okay, we just get a new to me. I can tell you when I look. Okay, come on one stem Yeah, you're in quantum years to give Atlanta conus, can you? I can't look? I am okay, okay. Surviving El Chapo The Twins Who Brought Down a Drug Board is hosted by Curtis fifty s Jackson and me Charlie Webster, our producers on myself alongside Jackson mcclennen. Research and editorial support is
from Casey Hurtz. Edit and sound designed by Nico Palella. Original score by Ryan Sorenson. Executive produced by Curtis fifty cent Jackson and myself Charlie Webster. If you'd like to know more about this story, head over to lions Gate Sound dot Com. Curtis fifty cent Jackson presents a lions Gate Sound and Geniu Nit audio production exclusively for I Heeart podcasts,