When Heroes Should Hang Up the Cape

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Pacino play him in a movie? Sure? There wasn't. Robert didn't there one? It was sincause that was Elizabeth who he go down to Georgia and something. Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today, myself, Matthew and my co host Riki Hayashi are talking about the question when should a hero hang up the cape? And there's an interesting story of how we got to this particular question because it kind of came from two different directions.

The first one was a question that I've often thought about, and it really came to my mind when I watched X Men ninety seven, is when does a hero get to say, you know what I've done enough. It's time for me to have the spouse and family, or just go and travel the world, or just go sit in my backyard and read books. Because I've been putting my life on the line however many years, and it's time

for me to stop. In X Men ninety seven, to the characters try to do that and are somewhat successful, we get a lot of pushback from some members of their team. It's a good thinking about, like should heroes be able to put their own personal interests above what other people think they need to do? And then the second thing was, I can't imagine why this is in my mind recently, but I've been thinking a lot about when should people decide that they need to step down and let someone else take up the

reins of leadership or the heroess or the fight. Again, not connected to anything in the news recently, but this topic, I think is one that also comes up in comics, in fantasy and all these things all the time. Is when does the generate? When does the older generation need to step

aside to make room for the next generation. When does the hero realize that he's actually not able to win the fight anymore, that he might even be causing harm, They might even be causing a harm by staying in the fight, and they need to be able to train their replacement or step down or something like that. So these kind of things both come to this question of

when does a hero hang up the cape? And we're gonna talk about kind of some of the factors that go into it before discussing the exact questions. But Riki i just want to give you a chance to introduce yourself and say

kind of your row thoughts on this. Yeah, when you brought this topic to me, For me, like the angle I approached it from was sports, because athletes get old and their productivity declines, and there are often at the the tail end of people's careers there are discussions of should they retire this season, like should they keep going, et cetera. So that's definitely like

what I thought of. In terms of the the question of heroes like X Men, you know, superheroes, comic book heroes, I do want to say that the cynic in me says they never retire because of the publisher. And in fact, when we're talking about Cyclops in Gene Gray, the story that that was based on, like them getting married and having a kid,

they actually did retire. The writer Chris Claremont wanted that to be the end of their story, right, wanted that to be the retirement for those characters and then have the new, newer X Men characters he was writing take over the mantle, and Marvel Comics is like, no, they're very popular, bring them back. So that, like to me, you cannot separate the business from the art unfortunately in comic books, because one of the other prominent

examples is Batman. Right, like, we have seen media like fifty years in the future where Batman has retired, but any quote unquote current story with Batman, you know, he is still I don't even know how old he is, but he's still going strong no matter like how old he is,

I guess, oh for sure. And so I think for this my angle is more not about the comic book, but about some of the on screen media where yeah, in one particular or maybe in one particular comics run or the like, we're in one particular story, the character does you have to hang you know, hang out the cape? Uh, maybe because they want to like Cap in the MCU movies, I think is a great example.

Uh and uh. And as you kind of refer to Batman and Batman beyond, but also I think in in you know a number of other stories.

And I also say I really like the idea of sports he brought up, primarily because I do agree that the the kind of idea of the the aging superstar who maybe is still very popular with the fans, but maybe their ability is fading, or maybe the fans are you know, that there's all these factors going in and are they still helping the team, and are they kind of un bench able because of how big a star they are, and is their sout like how much is their salary? And hey, and all this

kind of stuff. But I also think even for the kind of more Scott and Jeanie great question. I look at someone like Andrew Luck who was the quarterback for the Indianapolis Colts, very successful. I think he had like a seven or eight year career and then while he had a bad injury, but then he came back from it and then was like, no, you know what, I'm done. I don't want to, you know, be hobbling

the rest of my life because I destroyed my knees playing the sport. I'm you know, I have kids, I want to spend time with them. I've made enough money to be comfortable with the rest of my life. I'm just going to retire. And a lot of Indianapolis called hands very upset, and a lot of people other folks are like, no, he gets to do what he wants to do. So yeah, I think sports is a great metaphor and we'll probably go back to that a number of times. As

well. So let's talk about what are the factors we think that go into responsibility, because I do think a lot of this question is kind of the side of that old you know Ben Parker quote, Uncle Ben, with great power comes great responsibility, because in some ways, I think that's the whole heart of it is what is your responsibility, both in terms of when do you get to decide I no longer want to fulfill this responsibility and when do

you have to accept I'm no longer able to fulfill this responsibility. So let me first start by asking how much do you think the way in which a person becomes a superhero or a superstar or whatever it is, and how much agency they had over that goes into these factors into their retirement. Well, I don't think very much. Like I don't know, I know you have some ideas on this. I would like to hear your your thoughts. Sure, So I kind of laid out some different ways in which someone can become

a superhero. One is where they actively choose that they volunteer or they create the circumstances themselves, something like Captain America or Tony Stark. Sometimes where it's an accident that they didn't want, but it's of their own creation, like the Hulk or other kind of like I think a lot of other heroes had that kind of like they're a mad scientist and they kind of made this all

happen. Some who are kind of chosen by fate or destiny or genetics, like Luke Skywalker or Ang the Last Avatar somewhere it's just kind of random chances of genetics like the X Men and others where someone else kind of forced it upon them, like Luke Cage. And the reason why I did think it matters is, as we'll talk at the end of the day, I think this more matters for the first side of the question that the Scott and Jean

Gray kind of a thing, but it matters for both. But I think the main way it matters is that I do think, as we'll talk about more, for the most part, I'm always going to be supportive of a hero wanting to step down, particularly if they if they've helped create a situation where someone else can take their place. But I think I feel that especially for people who didn't want to be heroes, you know who, like there's a kind of like there's always this I feel like a kind of unfair tuck

push and pull between the hero and the people they're saving. Of you know, someone like Luke Skywalker, he's a bad example. He wants to go say that, but like someone like Aang he's a kid throughout the whole show, but especially in the early part of season one, he doesn't want to go and fight the Fire Kingdom. He doesn't want to go and do all these things. He wants to go play with the penguins and fly in a

sky basin and do spledding and things like that. But there's a sense from a lot of others, and some say directly of you have this great power that no one else does, and so you have to step forward. And so I guess to me, I always feel like, in some ways that's kind of unfair to the hero. And sometimes there's the kind of like,

well, there's an existential threat. I don't ever want to be utilitarian about it, but I do sometimes feel like, look, if millions of you are going to die and there's no other way, then I do expect someone to step up. But I think that that's I think it's worth acknowledging that that's really unfair in some ways and that people should be able to say I don't want to have this fight. And to me, someone like Haang or

someone like Luke Cage and even maybe someone like the Hulk. It's not that I don't think someone like Tony or Cap should be able to step down, but someone who didn't want this to begin with. To me, there's even more of an impetus there of Yeah, when you say you're done with a fight, I'm totally understanding. Hm hmm. Yeah. I mean when you were saying that, the thing that came to my mind is Superman, and

not specifically like when does he retire? But Superman has this problem, I'll call it a problem where because of his superhering, he knows when something's something's up, something's wrong, right, And so like I was reading a Superman book recently where he talks about not listening, like having to have like personal time where he just like shuts out the world, like doesn't use a superhering, so that if something is going on, like he doesn't hear it and

he doesn't go to help, and that's that's his choice to make. And you know that's not retirement, but you could see like how that segs into retirement where he just like turns it off for good. Right, So I don't know, like people, people should be allowed to do what they want to do ultimately, Like when when it comes to this, I whether you're talking about fictional heroes or real life heroes, you know in some capacity you

have to honor the individual's wishes. Right, So I take a very you retire when you when you tell us you want to retire stance on things, right, Yeah, I think that makes sense. And I think the sports metaphor you brought up, I think in this one regards one area where I don't think it necessarily applies to like superheroes, because if you're a sports star, you're getting paid, Like there's a specific if I do this thing that people want me to do, I will get these rewards and that money.

It's fame, it's you know, guest appearances, it's advertising, all these kind of things. And yet we know Peter Parker could barely pay the rent you though he's friendly neighborhood spider Man A second one of the factors that I think is really important, and I think, especially with Superman, to me,

the question of are you the only one? Because I think one of the things that I think becomes really important here on both sides of this is if you're thinking about retiring because you just want to Like you said, at the end of the day, I'm never going to say, like, you have this power and so society should put a gun to your head and force you to save them, Like that's not how they should work. But to

me, I think it's really with someone like Scott and Jean Gray. Yes, they have unique powers as mutants that nobody else has, but there is this whole bigger team that can step that they can step down and say, someone else can step up and take my place Superman until we get to the Justice League, and even under the Justice League doesn't have that, there's no one who's anywhere close to his level of until you get like a Supergirl come

along or you know, his clones or his children or whatever. So you see, yeah, what what factor do you think it has in terms of whether or not someone else can take their place for me? Like again, like for me personally, like no factor, because I think that to something like Superman being that extreme example, Like it's so funny. In a lot of Justice League stuff, there will be like this thing where some call it

minor. Crime is happening, and you know, like Batman and the Flash or on the scene and they're like trying to stop a bank robber, right right, that's fairly minor in the Justice League scheme of things, and they're like where Superman, It's like, oh, there was like a volcano erupted halfway across the world. He's helping that, right, So so there's that aspect of it where yeah, like we only Superman can deal with the volcano, right, So, like it's up to us to deal with these bank

robbers. And if if Superman retires, what happens with the volcano? I don't know, Like, but I don't know. It's it's too much to me. That's too much to put on Superman has too much to put on

anyone. But because of this conceit in the storytelling, when a hero retires, it is often because of some kind of catastrophic event, either like like something with their body, right, like they lose their powers is a common trope, an injury like that has happened, or a loss like the personal loss, you know, like super Lowest Lane dies and Superman like gets depressed

understandably and like vies off into space. Yeah, and is gone and yeah, I mean that that is a way to move that narrative into the retirement narrative. I hate it because I think these these people, these heroes, should just be allowed to say, like I don't want to do this anymore. But yeah, that's that's really not how it works unfortunately. Yeah. Well, I think in some ways that flip side to me where this question

is there someone else there? Because I think you're right, like, even if there isn't someone else to just to deal with a volcano, like I don't, there is an extent to which, and I think some of the Superman stories might have explored this of when you have that one heroic figure who will always come to the rescue, does that stop other people from remembering how

they can help themselves? You know? And think exactly To me though, the most important part of the is there someone else to take your side? Is on more of that other side of when should someone recognize that they need to step down? Well, let me let me just if I if I

may, regarding like can anyone else step up? Right? Like one of my favorite scenes in the first Avengers movie in the Battle of New York, when Captain America is directing some New York police officers to help people, and it's like, go to like evacuate those people from that building, like make sure like this road is clear of any danger. And it is normal, you know, unpowered people helping other people, doing what they can, even though like in front of them is you know, the Marvel's version of a

god. You know, superhero is like fighting the aliens, but it's like what can we normal people do? And showing scenes like that in superhero media, I think carries a lot of weight and a lot of power because you know, even though we want to enjoy these stories and watch the superhero fights, we also want to feel like we can not necessarily be a hero, but step up and contribute when something bad happens. And that's important very much

so. In Captain America Winter Soldier, they're just the non powered humans who are in the control centers of the Truskellions, and you know they don't want to go along with what Hydra is saying. V for Vendetta one of my favorite movies. I often talk about how the most important thing that V does is inspire the normal people to rise up and tip back the other direction that I was going to go with. His whole question of you know, is

someone else ready to step up? Is that I think one of the things that makes it harder for a lot of people to step down is ego. And I don't mean like I think we some and say ego in a very negative way. I don't just mean like, oh, they're they're conceded, they're arrogant. But I think in order to be a hero, like you often start by convincing yourself I'm the only one who can do this, so I have to do it, and then it's very hard to let go of

it. And I'll tell my heartal story when I was when I went to grad school. I went to grad school to become a pastor, but specifically in a like you know, social justice, very focused way, and that's

what the school is all about. And on the opening day that you know, on the opening day, commencements and all that, the dean of the school got up and he said, look, all of you are here because you want to make the world a better place, and all of you are here because you think that you need to help make the world a better place. Please take a look to the students, to your right, and the

students your left. And then he said, each of those people wants to do the same thing you do, and they're gonna be just as good at it, so it's okay to sometimes take a break. And I was twenty four. I was ready to go, you know, fix the world. I was utterly convinced of my own ability to do this. I had a lot to learn. And that hit me hard because part of me was like, no, like I have it. Not that I'm necessarily better, but

I have a unique talent that no one else does. I'm sure all these people do, but the world needs me specifically, and the idea that someone else could take my place just was unthinkable to me. I mean until you said that, and it really challenged me. And I was like, oh, okay, I'm like, I don't want to say that I've ignored the

guy. I completely listen to him. But I think that that has to be even more so true here when you know you have been at one point told you're the only one we need you to do this, and then later people realize, okay, maybe actually just want us can step up. So yeah, I just think it's a very important part in the whole question of like when can you step down? Some part is also being able to can you let go of the thought like can everyone may? Or is maybe this

is about just the same question from two to directions. The first part is can everyone else accept that they don't need you? And the second is can you accept that they don't need you? Yeah, this is why for me, like the sports metaphor speaks so much. My favorite basketball player of all time is Tim Duncan. He was a great power forward for the San Antonio Spurs. I pulled up a stat page. He was a two time MVP back in the early two thousands and won multiple championships with the Spurs and at

the end of his career. Towards the end of his career, the Spurs got some younger players Tony Parker Mount and Jenobli Kawhi Leonard I believe was also overlapped, and Tim Duncan accepted a lesser role in the offense, Like he got the ball less, he shot less, he set more screens. You know, he was helping his teammates rather than being the focal point because you know, he had lost a step, he was older, and he I

think they won another championship like in one of his final seasons. I'm looking I'm looking at him like he's he scored eight eight point six points a game in his final season before he retired, and this is a man like that's the only season in his career where he scored less than ten points a game.

And it was an intentional choice by him, and you know, the coach Popovich and the team to do that and and structure their offense differently than it had been in the past with Tim Duncan as the center centerpiece, and that that selfishness, Like, that's why I admire him, Like he was always that kind of player and had that kind of team first mindset. And that that to me when I thought of this topic of like how do you, you know, not just retire, but also ramp down your role potentially

because you don't have the skills and the tools that you used to. And that's actually a great point that I haven't really discussed until now, that it's not a binary. It's not either you're out there fighting volcanoes and bank robbers every single day or you're at home with Lois Lane ignoring everything. There's definitely this middle ground. Can you take a reduced role and I want to talk about how that plays out in some of the superhero stories, but I also

have my own sports story about this. I'm a huge baseball fan as an ou, and the team that I grew up watching and so will always be my favorite is the mid eighties New York Mets, who won the World championship in eighty six and probably could have wanted a couple more years, but had some very well known drug problems and other other problems, which a very chaotic mix of players, as well as some bad general manager issues and all sorts

of stuff like that. And I also really love baseball simulation computer games, where you know, you get to make the decision of like when you put in this pitcher, you know, when do you pinch hit? All these things, I love them, and i'm playing with them right now, and I'm playing a mid eighties New York Mets team. But I'm realizing that there's one player who the computer has no idea how valuable he is, and that's Rusty Stob. Is that a real player? Yep, that's a real player.

As he was, he was a rather large fellow. He was a redheaded Maybe that's also part of why I love him. He played Montreal for many years, was known as Legrand Orange, and you know, he was never going to be a Hall of Famer, but he had a solid career. He was a good hitter. Oh yeah, twenty three year career. Wow. Yeah. He was around for a long time, and by the time he got to the Mets, he was almost never going to be a starter. He was mostly a you know, late inning skill in in the

outfield and a lot of times a pinch hitter. And he was a pretty good pinch hitter, but far and away. And I read a lot of

books by Mets players and also a lot of journalism about them. One thing that they all constantly say is that as chaotic as we were, we would have utterly fallen apart if it wasn't for Rusty, because he was this older, experienced player who kind of like you're saying with Tim Duncan, but even more so, he's playing even less as a player on the bench, was constantly talking to players about like, Okay, well I'm seeing the pitcher do this kind of thing, so you should have just this way, or hey,

I'm noticing this thing in your in your hitting stance. You should change this, or just Hey, even going up partying the last three nights, and I can see it affecting you, like, you know, he was kind of like that uncle or you know that father figure. Yes, very much so, and no statistics are ever going to show it. And he didn't get to do what he used to do. But he was a player,

you know, like a player coach. I think he's a perfectly describe it, and was a central parts and the Mets winning their World series in ways it will never be recognized in the statistics books, and that couldn't have happened unless, as you said, he was willing to say, you know what, I would hurt the team if I was a starting player, so I could retire, but also I could take this reduced role and then do

something else. So let's now actually bring it back to some of the other shows, because one of the examples that I've been thinking about most is as a character who retired, but I realized, actually doesn't he does. Exactly what we're talking about is Batman and Batman Beyond. Do you know the story? Do you know that show? Well? Yeah, absolutely so. Do you want you want to give us like a little introduction to like why does

the Batman decides to change his role in what happens there. I actually don't know why. I mean, he's old, okay, like Batman. Batman Beyond takes place in like I don't know, twenty fifty to twenty sixty something like that, like quote unquote the future. Yeah, it's hoosially about like thirty to forty years after Batman the Ni minute series. It's not much in

that continuity. Kevin Conroy so loving the voice of Batman. So I think it's like the twenty twenties, but because it's like forty years in the future from the nineteen eighties, nineties, byably the twenty thirties. But he's still trying to fight. Yeah, his physical skills had deteriorated. He's not able to do the things he needs to do anymore. And he gets into a fight and winds up picking up a gun because it's the only way he can

get out of a difficult situation. Like not his gun, but there's a gun lying around, and he picks it up and uses it. I don't think he fires it, but he picks it up in order to like threaten the bad guy so that he can like you know, take them down. Or whatever, and it horrifies him because you know, he's gotten that his

whole ideal is always I don't want to use guns. I will never use guns, and the fact that he was no longer able to do it without picking up a gun makes him realize, wait, I can't do this anymore. And then at the same time, there's this other character who comes along who is able to who is able to do all the physical things Batman used to do, and so he becomes Batman and Bruce Wayne becomes the man in

the chair. Basically he's still also called Batman, but he's the person sitting at home on the computer directing the new Batman, telling him what to do, telling him, okay, there's like an empty room this way, you know, this kind of thing during the research. It's a phenomenal show.

I think it's one of my favorite Batman shows. But it's really about this idea that, like a couple of our listeners when I asked about this topic, wrote in suggesting people like Zoro and the dread pirate Roberts, where the whole thing is based on the idea that someday you'll retire and you'll not only pass it on to someone else, but you'll train them to take your place.

And this feels very much like that. It feels like they're kind of establish saying that, like Batman doesn't have to be one person, and any one person can step down and say, yeah, I'm no longer going to be Batman. Yeah, do you know about You've seen the Justice League epilogue to that. Yes, yeah, I think I don't like that. That's fair. Yeah, I won't spoil it, but yeah, we've actually done a couple of episodes about that, and that might actually, you know what,

I think that's gonna be our bonus content today for members. We'll talk more about that. Wait, no, I haven't seen it in too long. We're not going to do that. I'll take it, hold on out. Yeah, I can see that. Paul and actually did a whole episode about that that. I'll see how I can put in the show notes. It's from a while ago. I'm not sure I can find it, but I will definitely. Definitely. You can probably search for it and need to take a lot more time. Yeah, Paul and I actually did a whole

episode about that. Folks can definitely find it. It's hurching for Batman beyond but also, yeah, Rik and I you know, I should talk about that at some other point. I haven't seen it long enough. I don't

remember the details, but there's a lot to discuss there. So when you you mentioned the man in the Chair, I had already been thinking that, And to me, one of the most important examples of a like not a retirement but a transition in role was, in fact, in my opinion, the original person in the chair, Barbara Gordon, Oracle, that girl to

Oracle. You know, she was shot by the Joker and the killing Joke and paralyzed and could like would have legitimately been okay to retire from superheroing at that point, right, she chose to stay on and became the character Oracle, who is like the archetype of the computer genius, who's like directing the traffic and on the commns with all the other heroes of the Bad Family, and like not again, like I'm pretty sure like that she set the archetype

or at least was like the most popular version that led to a lot of other similar characters like her. And that that's again, like she could have retired, but she chose. I'm not I'm not even gonna say, like diministral, it's a different role that was essential and needed at the time because we, like as a society was also transforming into a digital society, so it was a good way to incorporate that into the story as well. Yeah,

I think that's so true. And I'll say not every Oracle episode or issue was perfectly done by any means, but overall, I felt the character was also a huge step for disability representation in a way that I love because it's exactly that it's and you know, there's a joke that a lot of

people use that's kind of I think there's a lot of truth too. It's not one hundred percent, but it's that all of us are only temporarily sorry, all of us are currently It's that all of us are temporarily able bodied, meaning that almost might be able bodied our entire lives, but the overwhelming majority of people are going to become less physically able, and you know,

maybe to a point of that you consider it disabled. I'm not going to get into like where the line is by any means or if they're even in a line, but you know, many of us are not going to have the abilities that we have at a later point in our life, and so her being able to and and for her it's not because of aging as he

said, it's because of a traumatic uh wound that she receives. And so for her to say, Okay, I no longer have the abilities to do the things they used to, but I still have these abilities and I can do other things. To me, that's again a great example of what we're talking about, you know, the ability to kind of recognize like, hey, I can't do the job anymore, but I can still do something else.

But also, as you said, if like, you know, a year later, she was like, you know what, I'm still having nightmares about when Joker shot me, or just I met someone cute and I want to focus on them or you know whatever, or just want to go hike in them mount or not get well. Hi, yeah you wrote you just watch Wheel her high roots j wants to do any of those things. That's probably good. It doesn't have to because of the trauma. Mm hmm.

And yeah, like she definitely sets out the Batman Beyond version of Bruce Wayne. She's in that story too, right, she becomes the police commissioner, doesn't she in that future? Oh dear yeah, she had that is very antagonistic, kind of a fun three way dynamic between her Uh, Bruce, Wayne, and Tony. I believe the name of the person who takes over UH with you know, both of them being kind of parental figures to women

calling him in different directions. So I think the Batman Batman is Terry McGinnis, Terry mcgus, sorry, not Tony is Terry, thank you. So I feel like the two big questions we started with were pretty much on solid agreement that a hero should be able to retire whenever they want to retire.

That, like padies do, great power comes with great responsibility or heart of the responsibility is also to yourself and to your family, and that you have to figure out how to you know, superheroes get work life balance just like anybody else. And well, I think there's some truth to the idea of sometimes like there is this existential threat or whatever, and if you don't step up, maybe no one else will. But also in a lot of times, if you don't step up, someone else might you might even know or

how can you train that person? So let's talk to the other side of when maybe so let's turn to the other side of when the hero should be stepping down but aren't necessarily wanting to just in general, like why do you think this would happen? Like if a hero wants to put their life at risk even if they're not as good at it as they used to be, why is that a problem? Okay, what do you have an example of this? Because again, like it's we're at the whims of the storyteller,

and it's like why why would they be telling the story? I guess is my question? Right? And when when have they done so? Because like I struggled to think of a story like this the Batman beyond thing, like he's so old in that right, Like it's obvious to everyone that he should not be Batman. But where's kind of our creaky like midlife crisis, like feeling a little creak in the back? Bruce Wayne, We got a little we got an interesting bit of this in a Spider Man what was the No

Way Home? Right when we get the Toby Maguire and Andrew Garfield Spider Man came in and they were talking to each other about like, yeah, like my back's bothering me now, like I can't quite do it, like yep, and I guess from Spider Verse, Peter B. Parker is kind of like he's older and also becomes a father yep, although he's still superheroing as a as a dad, right, But I think like that's kind of a character maybe that is like maybe it's time to hang like right at that point

where it's like you should start thinking about hanging it up, right, is like the middle aged Spider Man for me. I think one of the examples that comes to mind is Professor X in the movie Logan, where he is getting older and some you know, some of the mental issues that can set in for people. And I don't know what the lines are between just aging

and mental fading versus dementia versus like other things. I don't want to use medical terms, but just for many people, mental facilities can start to fade. And in Professor X's case, not only does it make him less able to help, but he calls his harm and there are times where he can't control his powers anymore, and and lots of people die in that movie. To me, that's kind of one of the most and and part of the movie is him still wanting to help and Logan having to help him understand,

like you can't do this anymore. So I think that's one of my first examples. I don't think many other examples come up in like MCU and DC stuff, because yeah, they don't want to retire that hero. But I like, well, like I say, I do think that in a lot of often the origin story of our original of our hero is often about the older person having to realize that they need to step down and so that because

that's why I think we see it there. But also you feel like, oh god, I'm gonna well, I was gonna say, I like what's going on in the MCU because they are superhero stories, but they have to deal with the reality of the age of the actors portraying them right and them aging out of this range where it's realistic for them to be playing this hero or even like for them to be doing the physicality of some of the stunts.

Perhaps Chris Evans has definitely commented publicly about not wanting to keep his body in this ridiculous shape, like the superhero physique shape that is forced upon him by media, and that is absolutely like his right to not do that anymore. I think in general, the you know, like women have been dealing

with this for a lot longer, like the supermodel body. But men now, like we're getting more stories of the lengths that they go to to have, like the six packs and the pecks and stuff, and they shouldn't be forced to do that just because we want eye candy, Like we can have like realistic, strong looking bodies. In myself, there's some action star from the nineties. I can't remember who it was, positive off, I'm not

sure. Actually, I don't think it's him, but who you know, was known for like being you know, very muscled in these movies and then kind of just stopped. And I remember an interview with him where someone asked him why. It's like, you know what, I remember how much I love cheeseburgers, and I just wanted to eat what I wanted to eat instead

of having this like very exacting diet that he used to have. And yeah, I think that that that that's another great example, and I think that I think with me though, in terms of like we're talking about the harm that folks can do, I think Batman's cake, Batman's case, and Batman beyond it's a real question of you know, he's feeling like he can't hold his own personal values anymore. In some of the other cases I've seen, I think some of the other factors that come up is like are you actually

doing harm instead of helping? Like are you not are you a are you just not able to do the job in a way that like, because you're the one trying to do it, it's not going to get done. And that's really a problem. But also I keep thinking about the question of younger generations, you know, of when older people stay in those roles for so long, how much does it prevent the next generation from actually being able to take over from them when they're when they're ready to step down or just get

killed or whatever it is. Yeah, I mean this is the This is important like for storytelling, but also for like setting an example for real people. Right because again, like the MCU right now is in this transition phase of the original seven six like are gone and we had endgame and they all you know, died, retired, et cetera. And now in theory like we should be getting the new Avengers or the Young Avengers whatever, like their

configuration is going to be. And it's like it's kind of taken a while to see where this is all going, but it's so important because a like, yes, the real life actors are too old to keep doing this, but for the story as well, like we want these new characters and these new heroes to have a chance to do their thing, and the actors too, like iman Volani is a treasure, as miss Marvel, and yeah, I and and it sets a real life example for people to to to make

this transition, right, to have Steve Rodgers past the shield literally to Falcon Yeah, yeah, I think it's so true. And I think that, oh I can't say that I remember this moly well because it was, as

the own actor has pointed out, very very bad. But I think it's the Ryan Reynolds Green Lantern where huh no, it's not that it's uh I start helped right in because like, this is a trope that I know that I have seen in some like not a Top of a super but a couple of superhero movies where the movie starts with the hero not being able to do what he used to be able to do and that's why he reluctantly has to pass it on. I know in some of the Zoro movies this has definitely

been the case I believe Nay Hopkins Indonio benderas one. At first, Anthony Hopkins does not want to stop being Zoro, but he has to realize like he's not able to do it anymore, and he's called harm so that means he has to now trained the next one. Yeah great, I mean green lantern rings are literally passed on. But in that one, in that story, a Anser dies like he crash crash lands on Earth and dies, and

that's how hal Jordan gets the ring. Right, How did John Stewart get his h John's I think John Stewart his I don't know the early days of like each of the lanterns. I believe like hal Jordan's ring goes to John Stewart, and it could be like when he quote unquote died or retired or something. But for a while, like there was only one green lantern on Earth. Now like there's four or five fair but he used to be like

a direct line of succession between them. Good well, I was gonna say, the only one like I remember definitively is Kyle Rayner gets his ring because hal Jordan becomes a villain, he becomes Parallax and like gan't that the last Guardian is like you have to be the one to carry on the legacy of green lanterns, so that that one, I know is not specifically Hal Jordan's

ring. Yeah, makes sense. I also think there's an example. We've mostly been talking about physical infirmity, but I think there's also lots of examples of where someone realizes that they're now starting to do this for the wrong reason, you know, where it's actually that instead of trying to fight for good, they're now trying to like get vengeance on the bad. And I think that's in the Actually, one of the best examples of a lot of these

is the TV show Titans. The Teen Titans have been a very popular TV show, and I think that but that's more about training them to be fight alongside the adult versions the TV show Titans, which is at times incredibly cheesy and sometimes has awful storytelling, but at times it's really really brilliant. It

has great acting. It's all about like those teen Titans now as adults, and they're all in the young twenties, and it was a CW show, so of course they're all dating each other, and they're all wearing incredible outfits and they all you know, the things like that, but also a lot of what it's about. Like in that one, the character of Batman is having trouble recognizing that he should hang it up, and it's part of why

Dick Grayson has really kind of drawn away from him. There's another character who I think is Green Arrow, but I'm not sure who is recognizing that he just actually is very distracted with his family life, but isn't willing to admit that yet and isn't willing to say like, yeah, I'm not able to do this anymore. And so like the younger Arrows are, I think there's two are chafing under that. So yeah, I think there's a lot of

stories there. But Riciano, for this realird question, you actually went to sports again, say more like in case like Tim Duncan, like, yeah, it was great that he could take a different role. Other players retire, But what's wrong with the player wanting to just play as long as they want? I mean, what's I don't know if I can say wrong, but it a player hanging on too long? Because there are resources right in

sports, yeah, there are. There's a certain number of roster spots you can have for players, and so if you devote one to this person, like that's one fewer spots you have and playing time as well. Like especially, you see this a lot in basketball when the older player retire, like is in their final season, but they were a superstar, right, like a Michael Jordan or a Kobe Bryant type. In their final season, they're still Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant. They still want to shoot like thirty times

a game, twenty times game. I don't know a lot because you mentioned earlier the ego, right, it's hard to put that aside. I think Tim Duncan, like that's why I admire him so much, is like it was such a different end of career trajectory to a lot of legitimate superstars when they're in their decline phase in basketball, Like I think Lebron James right now,

we're seeing the end of his career. Like he got the scoring title, like the old times scoring title, and there's a question of like whether his pursuit of that and his need to keep scoring points at his age was a detriment to the team like winning, to development of the next generation of players, right, Like they're not getting as many looks like all the ball

is constantly going to Lebron type the thing. But it's it's also a business and fans, you know, want to see Lebron James, especially you know, if it's his last season, like that is a legitimate thing that leads to ticket sale bumps. It's like, hey, come, this is your last chance to see Lebron James. I wish I had taken the opportunity to

see Ichiro Suzuki in baseball when you were tired, before you're retired. I never got a chance to see him play a live So if they had announced, like this is Echiro's final season, like I would have, you know at the time, I should have tried to go see a game. Right. So it's a weird a balance between what the player wants, what the franchise wants or needs, and what the fans want. It's it's not it's it's not like a one answer fits all. Yeah, no, I think

that's all really true. And I think that, like we've talked about this being ego, but again, I think it's not that we're necessarily talking about people eating arrogant. I think it often comes from a very good place of you know, when earlier in your career as a superhero or a politician or a crime or a sports star or anything. You know, it gets into your head and everyone around you is telling you, we can't do this without

you, we need you. And yeah, it's probably great. You probably have a lot of personal interest in it, and you know, it feels great to be the winner. But like you know, as a hero, you're also you are doing good for other people. And whether it's you know, winning championships that just brings a lot of joy to your your fans,

or it's you know, like saving the world. And so I think that like ego, I want to kind of more positive, but still like understanding why it is the problem word, because yeah, it's basically that idea of like I maybe it's it's ego combined with a very legitimate responsibility of I don't want the world to fall apart, and up until now I have been the one who had to save the world. So accepting the idea that not only can I not save the world anymore, but someone else could do it better

than me, it's a evigo. It's like a really it's a challenge to yourself image, you know, Like I wonder how many of these heroes, especially I know we had this happens in sports a lot and in other fields as well. You know, your sense of self becomes I am the person who saves this, I am the person who hits the game winning shot. I am the person who fights the volcano. And so when you have to realize maybe someone else is better able to do that, it's really hard because

ask whoay am I instead? Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with calling it ego, And whether you think of that positively or negatively, you cannot have like this caliber of player without ego. Yeah, Like the thought process of I am the best, you know, I can beat this person on the dribble or whatever, like I can hit a home run off this

picture. That is part of the psychology of sports. And if you don't have that, like, there are so many talented players in my opinion, that don't reach maybe the heights that they should because of psychology, because they have self doubt and that leads to them not trying you know something or whatever. So I think it's absolutely ego and it's fine, Like there can be

positives, there can be negatives. Yeah, And I want to throw out like the final thing, the final player for me that I thought of in all of this was John Elway. He was a quarterback for the Denver Broncos and he at the end of his career. He went back to back Super Bowls with the Broncos and then retired after the second one. Yeah, and he was like he was at the top of his game. Probably could have played, you know, a couple more seasons. Who knows, like how

good he would have been. But he was like, that's it, Like he doesn't get better than this. Yeah, And it's like there are some example of that where it's like a storybook moment and it's like, yeah, why don't we just call it here before we see that decline And maybe he was already like feeling it, like physically or like just mental fatigue, was like why why I just want two Super Bowls? Like why would I want

to keep doing this? No? I think you're right, especially because I'm saying as a New York Jets fan, because my team keeps signing these people. You see examples like Brett Farv and I'm afraid Aaron Rodgers, but also a lot of others who don't get to that point and they keep trying and they keep trying, and they get worse and worse. Joe Montana eventually had Joe Montana. You know, I think it's an argument that he's the best quarterback of all time. He's certainly in the top three or top five.

However you want to do it. We're not sports casts. Don't write in she's writing whatever you want. We're not a sports cast, but we could be. You know, if I remember, like, he had to be benched eventually, and that was really a hard thing, in part because he was so popular with the fans again and he was such a big name. And I think he did retire with some of the men of Grace, but there definitely been some others who it's really hard for them to step aside and

to realize that it's not the time anymore. So and I have to be good. I do not blame let's see, I don't blame the players. I think you can put some blame on organizations if they you know, maybe like give too much money to a player, or the contract is too long, or you just like you know that they already have a viable replacement. It's like, why are you delaying the promotion of the replacement. Type of

thing. But for the player that themselves again like similar to the hero thing, Like they can choose when to retire, they should be allowed to choose, you know, yeah, when they retire. It's like if they want to keep playing, they should be allowed to as long as they are physically

able. I mean, there was a pitcher named Jamie Moyer who pitched, i want to say, until he was like forty nine his final season, and he didn't he didn't have it in the traditional sense, like his quote unquote fastball was like eighty one miles per hour when like pitchers are throwing ninety to one hundred, right, But he was he had that smarts, the wily like control pitcher. And again, like he could have retired any any

time, like after like thirty five, it would have been fine. But he loved it and he was still effective enough for what he was doing. And why why like to it's a lovely story. I love seeing stats for him of like the oldest player to do ex oldest player to do. Why?

Yeah, it's just story, especially because it kind of underlines you know, if you throw eighty mile an hour ball, If you throw the ball at eighty miles an hour, most of the time, you're damaging your arm at a much slower rate than if you're trying to throw a nine hundred miles

an hour every single time. Yeah. But also I think that maybe brings up the last good point here, which is the question of who you're accountable and who is going to tell you the hard truth, Because in a situation like what we're talking about here, I think I agree with you in part because, like I said, like I don't blame Brett Fard and Aaron Rodgers for taking the money from the idiotic gms that my team has. I blame

the GM for continuing to give them the money. And who knows, maybe Aaron Rodgers going to carry on my team to a Super Bowl and I'll be incroumbly grumpy about it. Well, I'll love it because my team has never won a Super Bowl in my lifetime. What but again, it's a business decision too, And then part of their calculus is no doubt we can sells, you know, some percentage more tickets because people will want to come to see this player. Well, and I guess what, I yeah, yeah,

that's that's totally true. And you know it's like Jersey sales or whatever. You know, Pete Rose declined a lot in his later years, but people wanted to go see, like when is he gonna break the hit record? Attack Cob and then what's gonna happen next, and you know, and he was a player manager and all this kind of stuff. But what I'm getting in here is that in the most of the fields we're talking about in

our own world, not all there's someone else that person. There's someone else who gets to make the decision or at least strongly encourage them to say, Hey, you know you were great Joe Montana, but Steve Young is here. I mean, you just don't have the skills you did five years ago, so we're not going to start you today. And I think that you know who's going to say that Superman in the early in the early Superman stories,

no one. Maybe Lowis Lane in later stories though, Batman a wonder Woman and the others who are kind of like on actually the Sumeruns about example, because I think would have listened to Shremie also, and Lowess Lane about that too. But you know, I think it's why superhero teams, I think are so essential. It's why superhero is feeling like there's others they listen to because then there's someone who can who can point out that hard truth to

them. You know, I think we see in our own world that when you just kind of how many like celebrities have put out, you know, sports stars have put out these like appallingly bad rap videos or something like that, because everyone around them is just gonna say, oh, you're awesome. You're awesome. Everything you do is awesome. And I say this as you know, my favorite team in the world put out let's Go Mets, which is god awful. But yeah, I I come to that point all the

time. But I think with this especially that question of you know, just having other people you're accountable to both that you can say having other people you are accountable and having that go both ways, so that Wolf Reeen should be able to say Scott and Gene will miss you, Gene especially, but yeah, go take care of your baby. I get it, and also that the people can say, hey, professor X, hey whoever it is, you've done a great job, but it's time for you to step down and

let someone else do it. I mean, Wolverine is an interesting one. Let's talk about that real quick, because we all thought Logan was the final like Hugh Jackman Wolverine. And now we are weeks away from Deadpool and Wolverine coming out prominently featuring Hugh Jackman as Wolverine a variant of some you know,

weird timey wimy stuff. Yeah, and now there are questions and discussions of should the MCU just cast Hugh Jackman as Wolverine like for the next ten more years because people think he still has it So I don't know, Like, if he wants to do it, let him do it. I think like they should bring someone else in, someone new in. But it's like, ultimately his decision to make it's Marvel student is decision to make in whatever direction

they go, and it is fine. I haven't seen any of the previews with trailers, but my sense is just from a little bit of known and I also want to know about Deadpool. This is kind of Hugh Jackman's Oracle

days. Not that he's physically unable to do the fighting of Wolverine anymore, but that like he's not coming in to play the super serious Wolverine that he did such an incredible job of. He's coming in to flirt with Ryan Reynolds and to create as much fan fiction as he possibly can, and to have fun being kind of almost a parody of his own character, as everything in Deadpool has always been so. But yeah, I think it's interesting that,

yeah, he has come back in a different way. And also I want to go back to Jamie Moyer. He did pitch his final season he was forty nine, because wow, two years prior to that he had Soldier, he had Tommy John shoulder surgery, So I believe he is also the oldest player to have Tommy John surgery and then pitch again. Wow. Just an unbelievable career. And there's like, statistically there's no way he's a Hall of Famer. Unfortunately, like he didn't get voted in. But you know,

people talk about the Hall of very Good. There should be some kind of hall to honor him and his story in the game. And I just I love him so much. Oh I'm in quick math. Yeah, No, I think it's great. The Mets in the UH for a couple of years in the two thousands had a pinch heator again, Julio Franco, who also played ahead for nine and he was just amazing. It was just so much

fun watching that It's one thing I'll say about baseball. One reason I love it is, you know, I could work all my life on my basketball skills, as I think it was I remember who said this, But you can't teach tall. You know, I'm never gonna be big enough or athletic enough to be a basketball player or a football player. But when when, oh god, I can't remember his name, the fat met who He was on the Indians for a long time, and then it pitched Solo Alogne when

Bartolo Cologne stepped up and for the Mets. I was in my thirties. He was a couple of years and I was getting weight already. I didn't feel great about my body. Bartola Cologne was older than me and was significantly heavier than me, and like you could see his beer gut like every time he pitched. And yet he was an amazing pitcher. And in one of like his last season, he hit his first home run ever as a pitcher while he's batting, and it was just such a great moment. So Bartola

Cologne retired after twenty eighteen at the age of forty five. So he also has like a long, yeah, long career, and he's is he like a he's like a borderline Hall of Famer. I would say to yeah, two hundred and forty seven career wins. Yes, when is see on the ballot, if you're retiring two that fifteen, you should be up because I think it's five years, so you should have been eighteen. So was he on the ballot last year? All right, I think we're now wanted pretty

far from the point. So we're gonna have a bonus section where Riekey and I were gonna talk about baseball a little bit more. I think probably if you love that great, If not, we'll have better pottage again. If you love that great, If you're not right in with other ideas want us to have for bonus content. A lot of times we have really good ones sometime forever. This week we booke them with crazed and able to come up with one. But we also just want to talk about baseball. But Riky

and he have the last thoughts on this topic. No retire, retire when you want, whether you're a superhero or an athlete or anything. I guess normal people can't retire until they have money. Unfortunately, Yeah, and I'm a little I think if it's you're retiring when you still can do it because someone else can take your place. Great. If you're no longer able to do the job, listen to the people who are telling you you need to step down. That's that's that's where I come down on it. Riqui has

always this fantastic conversation listeners, let us know what you think. Of course, try to become a member. It will be only five dollars a month, fifty five dollars a year. You get bonus content, you get full bonus episodes, and you help us keep the lights on, help us do all things we're doing, and you get a support a great podcast. So on, behalf of myself and Riki thank you all so very much. We have spoken about