What Is a Christmas Movie?

Hello, and welcome to the special Holiday edition of the Superhero Ethics Podcast. Today, we are talking about one of the most controversial ethics ridden always a debate about it genre of movies, the Christmas movie. We're gonna be discussing what is a Christmas movie, what are some of our favorite or least favorite examples, what needs to happen or shouldn't need to happen? And why is this such an incredibly strong genre for one particular holiday of one particular religion in

this country and to some extent all around the world. And joining me, I have two different experts. First of all, I have Abbi Nyman, who has been on this podcast a number of times before and is a Christmas movie expert extraordinaire. Abbe you want to say hello and just give a little

bit of your background. Hi, I don't know that I would go with Christmas movie extraordinay, but certainly a Hallmark movie, a fishnado Okay, Well, that's a very particular shub genre that often has thought of as part of the You know that how that plays in the large genre is very much the topic what we're getting into. And uh Andy, what is uh I think of you? As just a film guru, say it about who you are

and what your perspective is. Yeah, I, you know, as a passionate lover of film, you know, with you know, our film podcasting that we do over on the next reel and all of our shows. I see such a wide variety of of movies. And I certainly do and always have loved Christmas movies. But as as I've gotten older, and I guess as the genre has broadened in so many ways, I do find that I'm I'm you know, I I have a particular I like a lot of them.

I just don't I'm not like any Christmas movie I'll take. But I do like quite a variety, and I always like that it does create such a such a variety of interesting debates. I mean, you know, I grew up in a loosely religious household. I guess that's fair to say loosely, you know, Christian based household, never very strong, and certainly is something that's faded in my life as I've as I've grown, I to the

point where I wouldn't even call myself religious. I not being said, I think that there It's what I enjoy about the season itself is that it just is a warm and welcoming season that feels like it's something that's you know, it's close to the end of the year, and so that paired with New Year's always feel like a period to like, you know, reflect and you know, be surrounded by friends and family and gear up for the big shift that is the new year and all of those solutions that you have and all

that sort of stuff. So I suppose that's kind of my draw to it still, you know. I mean, we still hang some decorations up on the house and things like that. I'm very minimal compared to many people these days, but it's one of those things where it's just there's a vibe that

I think, you know, we've always kind of connected with. Yeah, well, and I love what you said because I think you're getting at something that I think is actually a very important part of you know, the question of Christmas in general, but especially of Christmas movies and also like music and how big a role it plays in our culture and we say our United States, but also in many parts of the world certainly not all though, which

is that for many people, Christmas is now much more of a secular holiday, and that it is you know, it kind of has these religious overtones, but it's much more about family and togetherness and generosity and light and hope in the midst of darkness and sadness and things like that, and kind of give my own background. I am a Christian. I'm a religious par center

person of faith. It used to be a pastor. And I've always had kind of a weird relationship to Christmas media from the other perspective, which is that for me, this holiday is a very, very theological one and I absolutely don't care if anybody else doesn't, you know, appreciate that, Like, no one has to celebrate my religious holiday by any means. And I love that everybody has a holiday about gift giving and secularness and trees and all

this. But it's always been kind of weird to me that all this stuff that I know is the basis of the holiday, which again I don't ever want to like, we shouldn't have a public holiday that's out there, that's all Like Jesus is born, everyone in the country has to care about it, but I certainly care about it, and so it's always been a little weird to me that all these movies are much more about like the one level

of derivation or even two or three levels of derivation from that. And thus I think it is very funny that one of the movies that we watched to get ready for this is the one of the most theological movies that I've seen a very long time about Christmas from a source I would have never did it from which we'll get to you when we talk about our own individual movies.

But so that's why. But I certainly have always loved Christmas movies, I think, particularly those that I think, while not in any way being explicitly and it's not again, I don't want there to be mass market movies that are Christian, Like my faith is my faith and should not be what everyone has to deal with. But it's just weird to me that there's stuff based on my faith. But not really. But I do love the like the messages that often of the season of like family coming together or of like you

know, the you know generosity. As one of my favorite memes of this time is that the the Christmas Carol perfectly captures the Christmas spirit, which is that billionaires must be supernaturally terrified in order to be nice to their workers, you know, but like, you know, whatever it is, I love that. So so let's actually start there, and Amy, I'll start with you, what is a Christmas movie? What what makes something a Christmas movie?

I mean, it's always such a debate, and you know, there are there are movies that are clearly obviously Christmas movies, you know, things that involve Santa Claus or you know, people coming together and like the family. And I think when you think of Christmas movies that are like definitive Christmas movies, it's the setting. It takes place, like during the season.

It's a story about family and relationships. It often involves actual like Christmas elements that we kind of tie into it, whether secular or religious, you know, but just usually it's it's the movies tend to be a little more on the secular side as far as like it's about Santa Claus and the reindeer on the roof and hanging up Christmas lights and things like that, and I think that's kind of I don't know where I would go with kind of your typical

Christmas movie. And they certainly come in all shapes and sizes. You know. You look at something like Christmas Vacation, which takes the vacation franchise and ties the comedy of the Griswolds into family, but it's very specifically their Christmas

story. And then you have you know, broader ones that kind of explore things like Elf and you know, it's I mean, there's a lot of comedy with those, and there's romantic comedy, and you know, there certainly is the drama ones and things like Miracle on thirty fourth straight about you know, reinforcing your belief in Santa Claus. And so that's I think for me, I'd say the definitive, easy to define, easy checkbox, even easy checkbox Christmas, you know, as opposed to things like Diehard, which,

as you brought up, brings so much more debate into it. Abby. What about for you? What makes something at Christmas movie? Yeah, I think kind of along the same lines. To me, it's the plot has to be affected by it being Christmas, whether that's a story about Santa or you know, have people hanging up the lights on their house or whatever.

It's there has to be some connection to Christmas other than this is a movie happening at Christmas, and the fact that it's happening at Christmas makes absolutely no difference. A'll a die Hard so for you, so that can be a start to get into question. So for you, something like die Hard or Batman returns, those are not Christmas movies because they just they have this sort of accoutrement of Christmas, but the christmasness isn't a fundamental part of the movie.

Yes, are we starting our debates now or should we save that for I think let's let's here. Here's the way I want to get into it. I want us to try and go through and see if we can name and then discuss a bit what we think the different subgenres of Christmas movies are. And I think when we I think one of the possible subgenres is movies that just take place at Christmas time. And so that's when we can get

into that one. Sure, So let me kind of just throw some out and then you all can also add ones that you don't think I have, but also just let's talk about each one as I name them. So, first of all, I think kind of the most basic is what you're talking about. Andy. I think your definition actually named a couple ones, but I'll kind of try to summarize those quickly. I think there is the family coming together because the family or the friends or someone like that are celebrating Christmas,

and the spirit of Christmas is like a part of that. A second thing I think you mentioned is the you know, the movie is about the sort of characterizations that have been built up around Christmas, and that's Santa Claus and Elves and some of the other kind of like maybe supernaturally things around that.

And then a third one that I mentioned, and we'll kind of start with these three is basically retellings of either a Christmas Carol or It's a Wonderful Life, which I think at this point kind of constitutes its own subgenre with a lot of overlap. We're thoughts on those three. Did those three like make sense? You all are genres? Yeah, I mean I think so.

I think there's there. I mean, I mean, even just looking at film genres in general and then going okay, can I apply these over to Christmas movies and then I think, yes, you can see how they're they do kind of fit in with those different things, you know. I

mean, I think, I mean there are certainly more examples. You know, there are very religious Christmas films, things like the Nativity Story, I mean those also exist a genre that we're probably not gonna spend too much time talking about, as fun as it is, but there are plenty of horror Christmas films, which yep, you know, I just watched Violent Night last night and had a wonderful time with it. And and so there's also Sorry,

and you know, musicals, animated films. I mean, there's so many different ways that you can approach this, but I think, you know, in the broad scope, like there's the comedy, the drama. You know, there there's a few of those that I think will work well. And yeah, I think I think you're right. The telling of you know, Charles Dickens a Christmas Carol has become so key in just kind of Christmas

lore. Let's just say that it almost is a genre as like into its own, as you said, like, there are so many versions of it, reiterations of it, even something like I'm blanking on the name of it. But the Will Ferrell Ryan Reynolds one that just came out last year is in some way another version of that, where you know, the character actually is Eben User Scrooge later in life, you know, and things like that.

So it's it's interesting how that really has become so defining of kind of the Christmas character arc really right, And there are certainly a lot of There are certainly a lot of retellings of a Christmas Carol out there, but I feel like the category should be maybe larger to also encompass like Christmas lore in general, because you get a lot of movies about like how Santa became a

thing, like Klaus, or like Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer. Those are all very connected to Christmas, and you see a lot of retellings or different

interpretations, but they aren't a Christmas Carol. One thing I was thinking is I mentioned It's a Wonderful Life as part of this, and certainly I don't know if this is still true, but it used to be that starting around December fifth, there was never a point in the twenty four hours of the day every day from that until Christmas, but there wasn't at least one channel

showing It's a Wonderful Life. And as I think about it, I can think of numerous TV shows that have had a character have sometimes very explicitly, sometimes kind of as a parody, their own version of the It's a Wonderful Life Christmas Story. I don't know that many moves have there been movies that you all can think of that are retellings of its Wonderful Life where people kind of thought, like Jimmy Stewart did best and let's just leave it alone.

Well, I mean there's as you know, as we were recording this, there's a brand new one that has just been released called It's a Wonderful Knife, which is it's the it's the horror comedy version of that that's made by the people who did like the New Freaked, you know, and the kind of like this, there's that group of people who's taking like some classic genres like they did the Groundhog Day and now that's Happy Death Day, and they're

turning these these great like key films and turning them into horror. And so that's the newest one. I'm trying to think if there are any other abby you might know of some I'm trying to think of any I can't really think of any movies. Yeah, I can come up with like probably five to ten TV shows off the top of my head. But mm hmm. Yeah, and some way they did it quite seriously, married with children, did it a parody of it where Sam Kinnison is the angel, which is hilarious.

I think like Faturama have done it. But yeah, not too many movies. Oh you know, actually, would you say the Nicholas Cage movie The Family Man? That's my recollection of that one is kind of similar, Like, yeah, I guess he's remembering or he sees a different version of his life where he's married because he was a like a stone cold businessman sort of thing. That's one that comes to mind, the only one that's actually coming to my mind right now. Yeah, no, I think that's fair.

That's fair. I'll also mention goo ahead, go ahead, I'll say I'll also mention as another subgenre that prodactly explore too much. But it's worth naming because as far as I can tell, it's fairly recent. I think Arnold Schwarzenegger started it. But it is the it's Christmas Eve and you haven't bought your child the perfect toy yet, and so now you're fighting with other parents to get the last version of the g I Joe Doll or the Cabbage

Patch Kid or whatever. That is all the way with Schwarzenegger and Sidbad I think started that but now there's been like five or six, so I'm willing to call that a subgenre in and of itself of for a very anti capitalist holiday, perhaps the most like all hail capitalism. But I'm going to keep my religious thoughts as far fwad as I can. It's the general rating of

this podcast. Yeah we can curse. That's fine, okay. I think that that genre you're mentioning, I think can be again broadened too just Christmas fuck ups, because there's also movies like Christmas with the Cranks and things like oh what is it called? It's a kids movie where they all get stuck in an airport over Christmas with no adults, because of course they do, but it's just generally like Christmas mayhem. Yeah, that's fair for me.

The anti capitalist nest is what makes me focus on the like we have to buy the perfect thing. But you're right, I think there's a lot of overlaps there. Let's go come int a genre that probably has always been with us, but I think has gotten a lot more tension in recent years.

Now there's a cable channel mostly dedicated to it, Abby tell Us about the Christmas romance and Christmas rom com I think he is often it's thought, but you've had some conversation with me about how Christmas romance might be the more appropriate term sometimes. Yeah, I mean there's definitely Christmas rom coms, but I do think just Christmas romance is a fairly strong subgenre. The most recent movie

that I can think of was one that was released last year. It's called The Noel Diary, I believe, and the story is all about this man whose mother died and he's going to clean out her hoarder house and in doing so, he finds a journal and the journal belongs to this reporter's birth mother, who she never knew, and so they go on this track to meet her birth father from this diary, and it is there are comedic moments in it, but it is very strongly a drama, and like a romance drama,

right. And I think there are other stories like that, and they've become very popular, kind of along with like the resurgence of romance novels, especially with like TikTok Book Talk is very into the romance novel, very into the romantic tropes, right, So I can very closely see the connection of why people are suddenly gearing back into this yeah, and talk a little bit more about that. Why Because the Hallmark movies, especially which I think in

somebodys's kind of its own subgenre of the subgenre. You know, the joke is always that they're incredibly predictable in terms of like there's the stock characters you have, and it's almost always the big city woman and the small town guy, although not always is the in Priggies the movie that you had us watch does not follow that, but he's almost always wearing a plaid shirt and all

that. What do you think it is that that drives the kind of appeal of these more recently, especially ones where there is so much predictability that I think often gets made fun of, but as I've gone understand, it is actually a really positive for those who really love these. Yeah, I think one of the big things about the season, like people were talking like you guys were talking about of like bringing people together and seeing the light and the

darkness. Especially for those of us who live in areas that get real cold, it is very dark, very cold, very hard to find the happy and the joy and it just turns into stress. So these Christmas movies are almost a stress free watching experience because you know generally the storyline it's going to take, and you know that the couple's going to end up together in the end. Sometimes it's not the couple you expect, but the couple's going to

end up together and everyone's going to be happy and celebrate Christmas. So it's kind of the value of the predict the predictability is itself a virtue of those in many ways. Yeah, it's like going back and watching your favorite TV show over and over again. It's just you know what happens, but it's still fun to watch. Any what's your thoughts on this particular sub genre.

Don't know how much you've explored the Hallmark Christmas or even like I will say the Hallmark but also I mean like Love actually was a huge movie, and I think that's very much a Christmas romance, Like there's there's certainly been a lot more big mass market ones as well. Yeah, I mean there's definitely a place for those films and like that that style of romance during the holiday

season. Obviously in the whole idea of Christmas movies, having this element of family relationships, connection, you know, healing, all those sorts of things. You can you can see how it's really kind of a perfect genre for a lot of that sort of stuff. I've generally have never really been too much of a fan of TV movies in general. There are there are some that I really do enjoy. But and the Hallmark movies, like the the phenomenon, Letster's call it, of Hallmark movies, the way that it like

turned into the it's its own behemoth. I don't know, like in the past decade, it seems where it's like as soon as December or Old around, it was like a new movie a day is really what they seemed to be cranking out. And you know, I mean I enjoy, you know, being a part of the process. I've I've been involved off and on in the film industry. I have friends who actually make Hallmark movies right now.

In fact, they just there was it called the Biltmore Christmas or something like, they just worked on that one which just came out was huge and a Merry Scottish Christmas, which also is this year. And so now they're in this point where they're they're basically making Christmas movies around, which I think is really funny that like they can't get away from Christmas and so anyway.

But I think that the genre in and of itself, though, I think is really interesting one because it I think it has created something that is very consumable, let's just say where it's I mean, they put them out at such a furious rate that I think it's not really designed anymore to be something

that is watched annually. And that's kind of like Christmas movies. You know, well, growing up it was a different thing, but even today, like from my generation, I feel like there's this draw to having those same movies that we'd all put on every year and like, let's sit around and watch elf, Let's sit around and watch a Christmas story. Let's watch It's a wonderful life, you know, And that's I think that for me,

that was always a part of the joy of the Christmas movie. But it's kind of like they've taken on a different thing, which is like we're just going to tweak the story over and over again and give people similar versions of the same story with a lot of the same beats, all the tropes. There's a little bit of a difference with it, and so it's not necessarily my cup of tea. But that being said, you know, I having watched the movie that Abby recommended, you know, just as a as a

note, I walked into it in a like a low point. I was not very having a bad day, let's just say when I went in and watched it, and as much as it didn't click with it, I was certainly cheered up by the end of it. And so that's I think that the interesting magic that they've tapped into with them is it doesn't it can be consumable. You know, it's like a candy cane. It tastes good once it's it's like one and done, and you know, and then you can

kind of move on to the next one. And so I find it to be such a fascinating shift that has allowed these movies to kind of propagate in a way where it's different than before, but in a way it's creating the same feeling. Yeah, I really get that. I think I think Abby Waite explained it, and any you're adding really helped me to figure them out more because like one thing I'm thinking of is I kind of have the reverse

of seasonal effective disorders. So I don't know why standing under a giant ball of fire is so much fun for the rest of you but for me having it gone most of the time is great. But I certainly would understand that like Christmas itself, the holiday season itself, like is incredibly stressful. You have to get the right gift for all people, you know. I think

this is even more so true for parents, but for anybody. You know, what holiday party is you're going to go to, what are you going to say to different people dealing with all the family stress of you know, either going to be with your family or just like people who aren't. You know, Abby, I love you're talking about, you know, and you're

certainly not the only Jewish person who loved these movies. And I've a friend of mine who asked about this, said, you know, it's the one way she gets to deal with the fact of, like everyone is telling her about Christmas all season long, something she has no interest in and no participation in. And here's one way, Like it's a nice escape from the stress. And so I yeah, I can totally get. That is why it's a I think as the season has become much more stressful, it seems like

that that's at it. That's a big part of why they're so much more popular as well as I think This is probably a smaller reason, but I do think it's a thing. I know a lot of folks who like they go home to see their family and there's hey, mom, how you doing, It's good to see you, and then once it starts getting around too well, why don't I have grandkids yet? Or you know, what do

you think about what's happening politically? Oh, let's turn on a movie, you know, and the Hallmark Christmas movies are just very safe to watch together.

And so I think that that can be one more way of just the like, it can be your own personal way to escape the stress, but it could also be like, yeah, let's get together as a group and like we'll do a puzzle together, or we'll watch a Hallmark movie, and that way we won't we'll remember that we're family who loves each other instead of people who want to tear each other's throats out because who you voted for last time, or whatever it is. On that topic, I think it's important

to note that like the Hallmark and Lifetime Christmas movies have been getting more progressive. We've seen gay characters, we've seen Jewish characters. Sometimes there's a black lead. Very really but it happens. But because of that, there has been big drama in the Christmas movie world where some of the stars have broken off into form the what is it called the Great American Family Network, which Candace Cameron all right, Kirk Cameron's brother, Kirk Cameron helps support sister.

Yeah. Yeah, but they created what is essentially a Christmas a Christian Christmas movie network that upholds and I say this with the largest of air quotes, American family values. AKA, it's very white and very straight. Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny because any when you were mentioning that there have been

some movies that do mention the religious aspects of Christmas. There have been, and some that are great, but an awful lot of them, including one that I know is out in theaters right now that I might watch just so I can tear apart how horribly inaccurate it is. I mean, to the folklore of the story. I'm not claiming a big accuracy, but often they're made also by the very conservative parts of the Christian right, and I think that, you know, it's interesting, there's a whole other thing about that

that we can get into. So as a way of talking about this, like how far did the edges go In terms of what is or isn't a Christmas movie? Do you think something has to have a message in order to be a Christmas movie? Does it have to have some kind of like family is great or you can always change and be a better person. Like I'm naming some of the kind of morals that a lot of Christmas movies have, and there are others certainly, you know, but do you think it has

to have something like that to be a Christmas movie? I think the idea of that lesson that the character undergoes is generally kind of a key part of it, you know. I think of George Bailey. We've already talked about Ebenezer Scrooge. You know, there is this element of that character kind of learning that lesson. I mean, it's a it's a story element anyway, the idea of character arc, you know, of character actually going through a

change, and that's what we're really drawn to. But in a Christmas story, when we do see that person go through this change of you know, learning that they are important, or learning to give instead of take, you know, there's I think there's a value to that. I don't know if it's always critical but I do think that that I don't know. For me, I feel like it's one of those things that really helps it get there.

And you know, I think when you have that list of checkboxes that you're ticking, they don't all necessarily need to be ticked, but as long as most are ticked, I think it can fit into the kind of Christmas genre. That's one that I think, you know, generally, I do like to see ticked in my Christmas movies, but it's I guess it's not always there, but I do like that sure. Like you said, it's to me that's an essential part of any movie is having something that you're trying

to say. So I don't necessarily consider it a key aspect of a Christmas movie so much as a key aspect of an enjoyable watch experience. That's fair,

That's fair. I think for me the idea that it is a message, but even more specifically that it is a message that I kind of associate again not necessarily with the religious aspects of Christmas, but the kind of just general like family togetherness, but also like renewal and rebirth and like you can always start again, you can always make up for the things you have done the learning to have empathy, and that like giving is better than taking,

and all those kind of things. I think those are for me a cential to it being a Christmas movie. But I think it's part of the point is that, you know, we all get to see it differently. But I'm going to use that, Oh, go ahead, I I was just gonna say, and I think it's it's, you know, like any story,

as we've kind of been saying. But I do think that it's it's key to note that it can be the main character who goes through that transformation, or you can have a story where the main character is already you know, on the line, let's just say, and by the process of being such a good person in the world, they're the one who's actually changing all the other characters around them. I'm thinking of something like Arthur Christmas Is where I was kind of using as a reference point for that. Yeah. No,

I think that's totally makes sense. The segue I was going to do, though, is that as a way to start the debate. I would like to suggest that I for me, at least a movie being set at Christmas time is not enough to make it a Christmas movie. So, for example, I would not describe Batman Returns as a Christmas movie. It very

much happens a Christmas and it has the aesthetics of Christmas. Absolutely, But there is a movie in which the two main characters, or the main character and his sidekick, both are people who are estranged from something that they really care about because of mistakes they've made in the past. One is estranged from his family, the other is estranged from the part of his career that he

most wants to do. And in the course of the movie, they find ways to learn to be better, to learn to forgive themselves, and to seek forgiveness for those things from the people that they've been disconnected with. And I'm talking about Diehard. So I would put forward that die Hard is a Christmas movie because it's an action movie, but it holds up the spirit those spirits of Christmas. Debate has been opened. Respond to tell me how wrong I am, go off on a whole other direction, because I'm my DC

is not even worth discussing as you would. Well, do you want to debate four or against first? Because I have a feeling I'll be four, an abby won't be against. I'll admit it's I've seen die Hard once and I can't say I was awake through all of it, That's right. I don't know that I get a full opinion here, I guess Abby, I feel like I'm kind of strupped because I know you and I talked about this before, and you help me. I think, come to the idea that

it just being during Christmas time isn't enough to make a Christmas movie. And what I'm sort of saying is that, like, I agree with that, but that one of the movies I think that has often thought of that way. Die Hard, I actually do think is more of a Christmas movie than people give a credit for. So maybe it's not a debate, it's a

three way discussion. Andy, where are you? And all this? You know, I it's a film that I think because it does have the kind of the family values, it's a broken family that feels like through the process of this traumatic situation that they go through, they are brought back together.

I feel like they're is this reconnection that we have between John and his wife by the time we get to the end of the film, and so that to me, you know, feels like we're learning some lessons we have Al who kind of goes through his own growth because of his conversations with John and and getting past some issues that he's had. I mean, again, it ties into general film characters, journeys that we have. But because it is this story of you know, it's a Christmas Eve party. I don't know

why they're having any Christmas Eve, but they are. It's a Christmas Eve party. It's all like, the music has Christmas elements in it. Everything feels very tied into Christmas. John McLean has some great Christmas one liners that he throws out, Now I have a gun ho ho ho, you know, things like that that I think it just feels like they're they're pulling on

Christmas in a really fun way. That sure, it is an R rated action action film with tons of action and blood and violence that you don't normally associate with a Christmas film. But I do think that it is that that family connection that we end up growing into toward the end of the film that does, for me help it really kind of be defined as a Christmas film. Like, you know, I am being a little bit tongue in cheek

here. I'm not saying that the slaughter of this movie is very much in line with the celebration of the birth of the Prince of Peace and Andy. When you mentioned the kind of the feel good like it's Christmas time, so it's time to watch these movies, I was very troubled that you didn't mention them up at Christmas Carol during that, But I assume that you meant to. You just didn't get a chance. But it's not gonna be one of those movies to me. I'm just saying I think it's a little more of

a Christmas movie than some people might give it credit for. Well, it's funny because I mean Bruce Willis himself said it's not a Christmas movie as it got damn Bruce Willis movie, which is very funny. And you know, as a franchise, typically in a franchise you would have if it's a Christmas

movie like it would continue developing with Christmas movies. None of the sequels, I mean, the second ones that The Wind in Winter, but it's not really defined as a Christmas story so much as the first one is, you know, and I say all of that. It's the same thing with the the you know, Christmas Vacation, which is very much I think a Christmas movie. But it's not like any of those other Griswold films have have felt

the need to go Christmas. So it's I mean, it is hard to I think this is just these are all elements that give it the the endless debate is this going to be a Christmas film or not? And you know, I'm okay with the debate because I think that's part of the fun of the whole thing. I think, you know, when you're kind of sick of other parts, you know, like, hey, Grandpa, stop talking about Trump. What do you mean the Christmas movie? Like, that's a

good one to segue. We can go a lot deeper on this, but I want to talk about the individual movies each one of us had us watch, because I think that they're they're gonna bring up a lot of the same discussions we're having. But Gillen more specific. Abby, let's start with yours. Tell us a little bit about the Enchanted Christmas Cake. Okay, So I picked this movie because I remembered watching it last year and thinking this is

such a fun, stupid romp. There's nothing serious happening here, It's just silliness. Basic storyline is this woman, her grandmother dies, she's taking over the bakery. But this grandma has this epic love story with her husband where they fall in love with this enchanted Christmas cake. And so the woman is trying to create, recreate this Christmas cake that her grandmother has become famous for

just in time for Christmas, to keep her bakery afloat. And she is met by a movie or a TV producer who's kind of unhappy with his job and who they just genuinely like each other. So they hang out and then they solve the mystery just because like there's there's so little drama in this movie. Yeah, it's just let's bake cake. Mm hmm. Yeah. It's

sort of like proof of concept of the Hallmark movie. I thought it was a great example, you know, it's it had some fun moments, the conflict between once the couple has established they want to be together, but now they have to have a will they won't. They felt ridiculously contrived to I

roll worthy levels, But I think that's kind of the point. Like one thing I've kind of learned is that even among the people who really really love these laughing at the silly moments, he's kind of part of the joy. You know, there's very I don't think there's anyone out there being like Hallmark movies should be OSCAR nominated, like I love them for that reason. No, the hate Watch is definitely a part of it. I could see it, and I guess I imagine that the writers and actors know that, you

know, because everything just seems a little over the top. But you know, I watched it. It made me think happy thing. As you said, you know, Andy, it's kind of hard not to smile after it. I really wanted cake at the end of it, which is not the best thought for me to be having it one o'clock in the afternoon, but it definitely put it there. Yeah, it felt like a fun, silly movie that I didn't take anything away from but just got a happy feeling from

watching. My wife and I watched it, and one she could not stop talking about how much she hated the woman's hair. She's like, what is up with her hair? Like she had such an issue with the hair, and I'm just hair blind, apparently, because I don't know. I thought it looked okay. But we walked away obsessed with the idea, so obsessed with the idea of making Lebkuk and that we started digging up recipes and were like, Okay, how do we make this delicious cake? We need to

have some right now, let's start ordering ingredients make it. It's kind of like, yeah, it pushed us into that place where like, now we have to have this. This could be an annual tradition at Christmas. We're gonna make lib cooking. We still have to make it and see if we like it. But it's funny, like that's the sort of thing that this

movie did to us. And it's I mean, it is so silly, and all of the plot points are so obvious and expected, and that's why it's just like not my type of movie, and I really like look for things that usually have a little more meat to them. But at the same time, like I said, I walked away, I'm like, I'm no longer in a bad mood. This movie did what it needed to do. It cheered me up, It gave me a little slice of cheese, and

I ate it and really enjoyed it afterwards. So it's it's that sort of movie, and it's it's it was so funny to kind of look at it and just kind of get that connection from something like this, because I think, I think this may be the first Hallmark Christmas movie that I've actually seen

Hallmark or a lifetime. Technically it's a lifetime, Okay, I guess I'm not really sure where the difference is, if there is one, or if it's just purely because it's on those particular networks, it's just different networks. Yeah, it did feel like some of the tropes this didn't quite hit. Like, first of all, it's the big the guy is more from the big city, and she's kind of like she's not from the big city, but she seems more just like from a decently affluent suburb and not quite like

small town. And there wasn't quite so much of that, like you got to put down your cell phone and learn to embrace small town folks see Christmas values like, but still had a lot of the same those same plot points and things. I think, Yeah, Andy, let's talk about yours, because, as I said, yours winds up actually being like very specifically naming

some of the theological ideas behind Christmas. In the first couple minutes in a Japanese anime about a homeless trans woman and her two friends, so it was not the movie I was expecting all sorts of levels tell us about about Tokyo Godfathers. Yes, so Toshi Cone is such an interesting filmmaker who sadly passed away at a very very young age and only ended up making I think four or five films total. They're all incredibly well made, really interesting stories,

definitely worth watching. But this is like the Christmas story that he told Tokyo Godfathers, and it is pulling a lot of these Christmas elements from kind of from like the religious Well there's there's the religious story inclusion of things like the three wise men that we have here, the baby that is, you know, you could essentially say that little baby is kind of like the baby Jesus of this particular story. It takes place at Christmas time. It's Christmas Eve

in Tokyo as we're having all of this. There's definitely that sense of kind of this magical realism throughout that kind of ties into a lot of the Christmas stories. But I definitely think that the main crux of kind of what you're bringing up is this sense that we you know, it is the story of these three homeless people, but it is like a transwoman, an alcoholic and

a runaway child. Who are the three homeless people who end up finding this baby as they're looking for something to eat or I can't remember what they're searching for, but they find this this baby and end up kind of one.

They want to take care of it themselves, and then realize they need to find the mother and it turns into this journey story for them, much like the three Wise Men going to you know, following the star and everything, as they're trying to figure out the mystery of finding you know, who the baby's mother is, where the baby's mother is, and along the way, And this is again a key element of the story is each of our characters

has this sense of redemption as they're working on their journey to help help this baby find its mother, and you know, you've got just it's a beautiful like there's this real message of hope with the story and how good people can be despite their differences. I think all of these elements have kind of come together to tell a story that's so completely unexpected. But I mean it just grows in estimation with me every time I see it, and I just feel

like more and more drawn to it, Like every every holiday season. Yeah, yeah, it's really beautiful the way it like the you know, there's definitely some very strong illusions of Christmas that the trans woman starts out kind of telling a joke about like if a virgin can get pregnant, then why can't she, you know, she's just so much a woman as Mary. And

then they find this baby. The baby's name is and also that woman I should name the characters her name is Hannah Jin is the alcoholic and Muku and I may well become these wrong names wrong in which case I apologize, is the homeless teenager, don't teenager? And then Kyoko is the name they give to the baby, which is the Japanese translation of silent Night, which also

means pure child. But as you said, it's not like it doesn't feel like a Christian movie for it. It feels like these characters who are encountering a Christmas folklore the way that as people who encounter like a lot of different folklores in their life. You know, a lot I can say about that. But Abbie, first, why don't you time me? What was your take on this movie? Well, if the movie I chose was the lightest thing in the world. This was maybe the hard opposite to me. It

was, you know, it tugged on the heartstrings hard. I will say. You know, as a Jew, I probably missed a lot of the Christmas story illusions that were going on there. My experience with the Wise Man is like singing the when they saw the Star choire. That's about it. But I really the movie. I thought it was like heartfelt and it was nice to see these characters kind of get that redemption and figure out their stories. Yeah, but at the same time, watching people be sad is not

always the most fun Christmas movie for me. It's a rough movie. I mean, there's there's ideation, there's suicidal ideation. There's a big part of the movie there there's a lot of depression. There's a lot of really bad fighting and and discussion of just the horrible things these people have done in the past. So yeah, I it. I can't imagine this being another one of those feel good movies I want to watch, but I do think it's

a very wonderful Christmas story. I also feel like and Abby your comments were interesting on this. I don't know much about the person who wrote who who wrote this, but I do know that you know, there are Christians in Japan, and I think but the like, these three characters aren't Christian necessarily. They're just going to a nativity because that's where they can be warm and

get food, because there's a church that's doing that. And I in some ways, I feel like this is one of the only movies I think that could get away with having this much of the religious aspects of Christmas because it's told from me in a community that is not Christianity is the overculture the way

it is here in the United States. Yeah, I think there's an interesting Yeah, there's an interesting element that with that, for sure, and I think at the same time, I think that there's something really interesting with the the choice of the characters that that con uses here that allows it to kind of reflect I think what, you know, a lot of people, certainly the three of us, you know, would argue that the idea of Christmas is one of welcoming you know, all kinds, all people, and it's

it's a very it's you know, a love that embraces everybody you know, and that's you know, the idea of the whole thing with religion that's kind of been I don't want to Uh, it's it's kind of gone down different

roads, let's just say. And and that's something that I think even with characters that aren't you know, that aren't Christians, that are not what you'd expect in a story like this, I think that it certainly isn't going to be something that's going to play on Cannas Cameron's network, but it's it is the sort of thing that I think still allows it to end up feeling more you know, welcoming overall to just you know, so many It just it

feels like like a much bigger hug. Uh. You know, it's grasping so many more types of people than you normally would get in in some Christmas stories, you know. Yeah. Yeah, I think one of the things that did pull me in was the fact that Hannah was queer, because I am queer and was not expecting that in this end of story. Yeah yeah, one of the things I loved most. There's maybe cry so much during the movie, and I may tear up again. One complaint I sometimes have

about Christmas movies is they're very much about family. They specifically mean blood family, and I think that can kind of leave out sometimes the families of choice that many of us build, sometimes just because we're distant from our physically distant from our family, but a lot of times because we're emotionally distant, either in small or very large or you know, completely cut off from our families,

and particularly in queer communities. That has meant so much. And so when Hannah, excuse me, I'm sorry, when Hannah goes to the club that she used to perform at Angel Tower and meets her mama, and it's very clear that this is not her biological mother, but this is within trans women, particularly drag clean societies, and the movie the TV show Drag is

a great decription of this. I'm sorry, pose Uh, the mama is often just an older, also trans woman who adopts younger people, uh, queer queer kids and and and both trans women and queer men and everyone.

And to have that be honored as family as her family, it meant so much to me, and that that felt like such a like, yeah, that family connection is just as powerful at Christmas time and is one that we've that that when all you're seeing is blood relatives, I think you can feel really left out of And I just thought that was like such because it wasn't made a huge deal of It was just like, this is her mama,

and I just loved that so so much. That. Yeah, that that connection that you have there with I mean, I think it's exactly what you just said. It's it's these people that you that become your family and they are there. That bond is so important and it doesn't matter who it is, how they came into your life, just the fact that there is that

bond there. And we certainly also have it with the three or three characters, you know, the three homeless people, you know, and that connection that they each have with each other, and the draw and you know, at the very end, you get that reconnection between the young girl and her dad who's the police officer, and and all of these different stories. I mean, it's just it's so full of these connections. And again it's just it's like welcoming all of them and they are they're all equal, and that's

what I think is powerful about it. Two other just quick things. Have you ere anything else you want to add on that? No, I think what you've both said has covered pretty much everything I felt about it. Yeah, two other quick things I'll add about the theological side, of it one

just like a small thing. But that I really loved is that there is one small kind of like supernaturalist moment in the story, but it feels very magic realism, and maybe it's just a very lucky coincidence, but basically like when there's this you know, horrible moment where the baby is falling and Hannah leaps after the baby to try and catch her, this wind comes up and catches them in the awning, and it's I think it's supposed to be kind

of like a Christmas miracle of some sorts. And what I loved about that is, like, sure there's lots of like Christian Christmas miracle stories, but in Japan, the idea of a sacred wind, like the wind itself in particular, being a locus of miracleness. This is something I know very only a very little bit about, so please correct me if I get the details wrong. But I looked at this little more and make sure I had some of the ideas right. Like even the term kamakazi, which is, you

know, we associate just with these Japanese pilots. It's a reference to a wind that in the destroyed a fleet that was supposed to be invading Japan in the Middle Ages, and that was the idea, was that these pilots would be a new version of that. But that's just one example of like divine wind being a very important thing in Japanese mythology often, and so the idea that was a Christmas miracle, but in a way that has nothing to do

with Christianity, and it's very much more about the aspects of Japan. I just thought that was really beautiful, that is, yeah, and I didn't know, I guess thinking about some other you know, anime and other Japanese films, I see that in there now. I guess it's just something you know, I've never really looked into very much. But you know, I'm glad that you looked into that and pointed that out, because that's actually a

really interesting element. I just kind of took it as that magical realism element, but coming from the Japanese culture that way makes it all the more powerful and interesting that they did it that way. Definitely, the last thing I'll say, and this is kind of a nice segue into my movie that I

want to do, which will do pretty quickly. The only other critique I often have, especially some of the older holiday movies is that it always feels like everything is so perfect, like even in Home Alone, where they literally leave a kid behind. They're in this like very nice, affluent, wealthy family and that's often what Christmas look like, which to me like watching my mother with holes in her shoes go out into the snow to buy us gifts

like didn't relate to. And I really love the idea that this is. This is about Christmas in the midst of brokenness, which is both I think, just a wonderful, like completely secular idea, but also as a part of the Christmas story that the evangelical like Christ is King and glory and all of this forgets It's supposed to be about these like two starving teenagers who can't

find any room anywhere and are literally homeless when they give birth. And so I just thought that was just a really beautiful thing and just about the idea of like the Christmas magic in the midst of the brokenness. My favorite Christmas movie is hands down Them Up at Christmas, Carol. I think it is just a phenomenal movie all overall. But the one I pick because it's probably my second favorite, is Scrooged if you haven't seen it, scrooged. It's

a Bill Murray movie. It's a nineteen eighties movie. In some ways, it's a wonderful movie. In some ways, it hasn't aged very well, I'm sure, and it's a much harsher telling of the Christmas Carol story. There's a lot of meanness in it, but it is. It is exactly the Christmas Carol story. There's the three ghosts, and it's all this kind of meta story because it's about this TV executive who's producing a version of Christmas

Carol, but then his own version of it happens. And I just really love it because it's like I am, at heart, someone who has a very idealistic core and really loves everything about Christmas, but is also deeply, deeply cynical, and so to have like that core of a beautiful movie wrapped up in all the cynicism in New yorkness of this movie, I just absolutely love. It's a fun movie. I haven't seen it in a very very

long time. I saw it in the theaters when it came out. I probably saw it in one other time after that, and then I just hadn't seen it. I always remembered it was there. I love the music. Danny Elfman's score is fantastic, but it's just something that has kind of it's always sat there as like, yeah, that's another version of screwed of you know, a Christmas tale story. And Bill Murray is you know Bill Murray's

he's funny. He plays that the awful you know TV exact perfectly, like he's great, just like he you know, that's kind of the same character he's playing at the start of groundhog Day. Really and yeah, I mean there are elements that now you're like, you know, you kind of roll

your eyes out a little bit. But on the whole, I think one of the things that I enjoyed so much about it is it's it's an adaptation of a Christmas carol that also is tying in so many things that I remember growing up as a as a child of the seventies and eighties, where you have all of these like kind of cheesy Christmas specials on TV, like they're doing their whole thing is they're doing this live broadcast and tying that into the

story, and just how commercialized Christmas is becoming and everything and all the celebrity cameos that you have, like, you know, Mary lou Retten is tidy dim doing her little backflips and everything like, it's just it. Those were elements that I had forgotten. And you know, I love the story of a Christmas Carol. This is another version of it. It's it's not my favorite version of it, but I had a lot of fun with that,

so I was glad to revisit it. I hear that, Abby, I guess, yeah, so say if my movie made me smile and Andy's made me cry, Matthew's yours made me want to yell. I really hate a Christmas Carol stories so much. I think that they are bad and their little lesson is bad. I have. I've had enough of watching rich white guys get saved by acknowledging the poor. Uh huh, that's very fair. That's

very fair that there is. Like as much as I love even I'm up at Christmas Carol, there's a very condescending attitude I think often of, like I have come to lower myself to be with you. All that is in all of the versions. Yeah yeah, and also so go ahead. Sorry, The story itself just doesn't lend itself to having interesting female characters, and I think Scrooged was definitely affected by that. That's very fair. Yeah,

very of its era. Yeah, generally there's just the love interest that he lost, and that's and then maybe his mother, and those are the only female characters that ever show up. That's really fair. Yeah, at least we got the aggressive ghost of Christmas present. Yes, so good played by I. I know the woman because she's been in so much. She's Carol

Kane. Carol Kane, thank you. Yes, the wife up of the Wonder Wonder Worker and Princess Bride. And yeah, it's you know, I'm glad that you brought that up, Abby, because that I mean, I absolutely do love the story of Christmas. Carol is just something that I've grown

up with and I really enjoy. But I would I think that it's so important to acknowledge some of the the elements within that story that like people nowadays should take that as a challenge to say, how could we take this story and crafted into something that is more inclusive and that it's it's not just about this rich, rich white guy, but do something else with the story.

And I think that's actually a really interesting thing that I have, Like I am thinking now through all the different versions of the story I've seen it, I'm like, nobody's really done that, and think that would actually be worth exploring and something that could make for a valuable modernized retelling of that that would you know, work for more people than just you know, the people who connect with that original story, because certainly I think that this I think it

has become very much the focus is on Ebenezer Squezer Ebenezer Scrooge as a rich man. It has been pointed out that the wealth disparity between Ebenezer Scrooge and Bob Cratchit is far smaller than between, for example, Jeff Bezos and the lowest paid Amazon worker Bob cratch It is much better paid, and Ebenezer Scrooge

is nowhere near as rich. But but yeah, I think there are the kind of larger ideas of like you can still change and do better than you have in the past, and that you can like I even mentioned the poor. But to me, one of the biggest meetings of Christmas is the idea of abundance, and there's theology to it, but it's also the idea of like in times of scarcity, it's very easy to fall into the idea of I have to get mine and you go get yours, and I don't care

about you. But instead the idea of like we're going to build a table together instead of building walls between us is to me very much of both a theological and a secular idea of Christmas time that the Christmas Carol story I think can point to. And it doesn't have to be about a rich white guy, you know, it could be about someone else who has abundance in their life in different ways. Yeah. Yeah, it'd be interesting. So much

more we could say on this topic. So I just want to let each of you if you have kind of a last Christmas thought Christmas movie thought to share, and then also just let us know kind of where we can find more of your stuff. So Abby, I'll start with you. Yeah, I'll just say, give the stupid Hallmark movies a try, even if you think it's not your thing. Give it a hate watch, you know, mock it relentlessly. Sometimes they're fun and they'll light in your day. So

that is my last Christmas movie thought. On the internet. You can't really find me anywhere. You can follow me on I was gonna say Twitter, but x whatever at clutching my pearls pearl spelled p u r ls. Maybe if people follow me, I'll actually start tweeting. Yeah, I will never dead name a human being, no matter how horrible they are. I will happily dead name Twitter. It is Twitter, it remains Twitter, and I'll

just say I will echo check out Hallmark movies. But also, if you're gonna do it, you're worried about it, have someone either watching it with you live or like, you know, watching with you that you can text about it, because, as Abby pointed out, I think being able to a little bit like roll your enjoying the bad parts as well as enjoying the good parts, I think actually makes the movies a lot better. And being able to be like it's okay if I think this blot point is really contrived?

Right, and Abby, when you're like yeah, no, no, no, no, I love this movie, but that's a ridiculous reason for two people who man at each other like that helped make it a lot better for me to watch. Andy, what's your kind of last thoughts here?

You know, I mean it's I do think that the danger of Christmas movies can be that they fall into a lot of the same tropes, and I mean there are a lot of even even outside of like the Hallmark Lifetime World, there are a lot of holiday movies that I don't even bother watching. Like I see the trailer and I'm like that they're just playing on all the

same old tropes. They're not doing anything unique and different. And that's I think, like, why do you have to, like, you know, just tap into all that stuff again, do something a little more interesting, and so like looking for things like Tokyo Godfathers, which you know, just like once I saw it, it's just like burned into my brain. Is like there's a unique telling of something that is, for you know, a Christmas story that that feels different, and that's that's what I really enjoy.

So there are plenty of them out there, you know. And again, you know, as a fan of horror movies, you know, Christmas horror movies are awfully fun. And you know, even even with the bad parts, you know, I still had a great time with Violent Night, and so yeah, you know, you know the debate about Christmas movies, is it a Christmas movie, is it not a Christmas movie? I think that's just part of the fun and the point is that you're watching stuff together and

enjoying and I think that's the key thing. So and where can we find you? Yeah, you know, I podcast over a True Story FM. I'm on the next reel. We do movie podcasts over there. I'm also doing one called Movies We Like, where we bring on somebody from the industry and talk with them about one of their favorite movies. And yeah, and so you know, you can check me out there. I'm on a lot of the socials as Soda Creek Film, So you can find me over there.

And yeah, I think that pretty much covers it. Yeah, I really echo what you're saying there. I think one thing I've realized is that for me, the commercial commercialization of Christmas is something I've always really had a problem with. Part of that is because like my own theology, but even putting that aside, like as a kid of divorced parents who had very different economic backgrounds, watching my mother feel like she had to compete with my father

of who would give the best holiday gifts. He gave Hanukah gifts. But you know, so I've always did like a lot of the Santa Claus elf, like any movie that's about the gift getting side of things, and I've heard ELF is much better, and I'll give it a try one day, but I've mostly stayed away from those. But yeah, you know, we all get to enjoy whatever we want to enjoy about Christmas movies, and I

think that's awesome. I will just say that. Of course, Andy, you may well know, not only for all the awesome stuff Andy does, but the True Story podcast, True Story FM podcast network is what this podcast and my other podcast, Star Wars Generations are proud members of. Andy will give me a dirty look because I should have said this at the very beginning, but you can become a member of my podcasts from only five dollars a

month fifty five dollars a year. It's a great Christmas present for someone in your life you're looking for something by him a way in your membership. They get bonus, they get ad free content, they get bonus content. We're gonna do a little bit about that at the end of this about other holiday movies, but mostly you just get to know you're supporting us. This is a labor of love. But you know, the Internet, the microphones, the hosting, like all of it costs some money and the time and effort

and getting all these great guests. I'd love to be able to thank them a little bit more. And so every membership that you guys give, not only does it just help physically and monetarily make this possible, but it's such a great reminder to me and to the folks who are helping me at True Story that you really care about these podcasts. And so if you do, like I said, it's just five dollars a month, fifty five dollars a

year really be a great thing. All the information is on the show notes, or you can just search for the Ethical Pana dot com and I'll take you right there and there again. Also you find all the other stuff about this podcast. My other podcast, Star Wars Generations, has really had a great reboot. We will not be talking about the Star Wars Holiday special.

I did that once, I'll never do it again. But we are going to be talking a little bit about a twenty twenty three wrap up of like what Happened a Year in Star Wars, which will be a lot of fun. So please check out all those things, check out all the other great podcasts that Andy and Pete and others are doing on the true Story FM Network. If you're a member, stick around for some more bonus content. In just a second, we have spoken