Tuvix

Generation was okay. I don't think she ever watched the newer ones and she passed away long before Discovery and things like that, but you know, she and I would watch original episodes of the She and I would watch episodes of the original series, and she'd ask me about the questions and comparing them and talking about how they applied to real life. And I've said many times that's

kind of for me. The point of this episode is to really honor and talk about that kind of science fiction and fantasy and storytelling we expanded pretty wide that that raises questions that have relevance for our own world. And I think part of what I like about this episode so much, and Star Trek I think does this a lot, and especially the Oriville does this as well.

It's one thing to create a science fiction or a fantasy or anything like that that is very clearly just an exact, one for one analogue of something in our current world where you're making a point about that. And I think that's fine. I think something sometimes I think

that's really interesting and sometimes really needed. But I think science fiction is really at its best where instead of being an exact mirror, it says, okay, what if we take that question or that whole range of questions in humanity at the moment and put them into a different light and put them in put them with a very different spin that makes us question them in a whole new ways because to me, the point like there's extent to which the so the basis of this episode is

that two of the main characters, tu Vac and Neelix. Tuvac is a Vulcan and is the second the security officer and sort of the best friend and confidant of Janeway the captain, and he's he's often played off as the very opposite of Neelix. Neelix is a Tulaxian, a character we haven't seen in Star Wars before because they come from the Delta Quadrant in Star Trek. I'm sorry, I'm gonna keep making that mistake in Star Trek, which

they are now exploring. And he's he's very much the McCoy to mister Kutuvac Spock, except instead of being sort of gloomy and emotional, he's happy and emotional, and he's bouncy, and he's he always is trying to cheer up mister Tuvac in all sorts of ways where he refers to him mister Vulcan, and the two of them are put on a mission, and during the course of the mission, because of Star Trek science, there's a transporter accident and

the two of them get merged into one being. And this one being has a lot of the elements of both. It has a lot of the logic and technical skill and tactical skill that Tuvac has, while still having the humor and good nature of Neelik and even and being able to do a lot of the skills of both, but in some ways better. Able to be a great like leader of the security forces, but also relate to them more with humor, able to be a cook, but actually a better cook.

not Tuvac or Nelix. It's a new being, and they have a way to bring back the original two, which will of course erase Tuo Vix and a RaSE is one word you could use for it. Tuvex himself says, this is murder. You are going to kill me by doing this, and he appeals to the goodwill of the

crew and sort of says Janeway. Because Janeway decides that they're going to go forward with this, two Vix appeals to her and makes this kind of like and here's part of what makes the episodes too interesting, the kind of very ethical appeal that in Star Trek is supposed to convince us or convince us that the people acting against wrong, and instead Janeway goes ahead and does the thing. The doctor be a part of it because he says

he cannot do no harm. That doesn't attack that buttically do all the things to press the transporter button, to do the radio. I see it it possible, and Ween and Neelix back and no one's sort of saying whether this was the right or wrong decision. So that's just kind of kind of give it more framing, And Riki, what do you think of her decision?

May fourth, nineteen ninety six. So for listeners who aren't aware, I want to remind people, like television was very different in the nineties, just based on the episode count right, episode twenty four, like most TV shows had twenty six episodes per season, so it was a very long season. You have to have what we often describe as filler episodes, and this is like, this is definitely a filler episode,

right in terms of what Star Trek Voyager is. It doesn't advance really the main plot of getting them home sooner. There's no overarching like villain of the season. I believe season two they were still dealing with like the Kson, so there's nothing that interacts with the overall main plots of the show. So this is filler, but this is amazing filler. And going back to your question, what do

I think of her decision? Well, I think I mean, just in one sentence, I'll say it's murder, it's capital punishment, and I think it's wrong.

of storytelling that episodic can be a part of. Where it is episodic, but it's also like the episodes are part of a longer theme. Because the whole point of Star Trek Voyager is what happens when a particular voyager is teleported, you know, all the way across the galaxy, has no communication anymore with their friends, their family, with Starfleet, with anything else. They are completely on their own and they have to figure out what to do to survive

and get back. And in terms of Jane Way, her overall story is the need to frankly become harder and harder as a person because of the need to make these very unfortunate decisions that sometimes we may disagree with and sometimes but that I think that that Jane Way feels that she has to make in order to make in order to let the ship survive and her crew survive and her crew get home, and that I think the question that she's wrestling with throughout the show is

when and where can I live to my principles and where and where when and where should I abandon my principles in order to do what seems more pragmatic or more more you know, efficient in the moment, rather than what is my principle would say. And I just I think that for that reason, episodes like this kind of are the heart of the show in that they are it's.

us as viewers, but for the people I show. Like the episode itself takes place over I don't know, I'd probably say weeks, right, Like they have kind of montages, montage things where we are shown two Vix like doing the job of Tuvak and Neelix and interacting with crew members and giving the sense that time has passed, and that's part of the important thing, Like this isn't just a two vix existed for a day and like we're switching it back, like no two Vix was a part

of the crew for Like again, I'm gonna say weeks, if not months maybe and given a chance to be a person on the ship. And that's part of the issue here. And I also want to go back and say the actor who plays tuovis his name is Tom Wright.

So they got a completely different actor from Tim Russ and Ethan Phillips who played tuvakan Neelix, respectively, and he came in and kind of drew upon like his knowledge of you know, they filled him in on the characters he was portraying, and he watched some episodes and also like interacted with the actors themselves to get some of

their mannerisms, and he did an excellent job. Like Tom Wright, is part of the reason this is so effective is that we feel like he is a distinct person, but we recognize the elements of the other two in so he did an excellent job.

anything right now. I don't know if you can hear me, and I don't know how the recording goes on your end, but I've.

I remember, this is like technology that's twenty five years old probably, So it's not even like they're using all the cgi of today.

not accepting and understanding Tuvak's a lack of emotions. I think I just find him annoying on screen, and I find Tuvis to be often quite annoying on screen. I don't enjoy him as a character, and I found myself really missing Tuvac. And then I think to myself, is that part of why I am okay with Janeway killing him to bring those two back? Because I don't like

him because I find him uncomfortable. And to me, that's one of the best like mind screws of the whole episode, because I think that's it's impossible for the characters themselves to divorce themselves of that question. You know, Cass is someone who I think has kind of made the focus of it in some ways. She has a romantic relationship with Neelick, she has this spiritual and sort of mentor

relationship with Tuvac. She misses them greatly. Jane Way misses them greatly, and I feel like the show doesn't give us us way to get off the hook of that of saying, oh no, we would do this under any circumstances. It seems pretty clear that there are emotional feelings for the two people who are going to be brought back, and maybe even for some of them, they are annoyance at the person who isn't is a part of us, and certainly it's a part of how I watch it, which I think is exactly the point.

character or his look, but we've gotten used to him at this point in the show. So when you were presented like it's Uncanny Valley almost, and you're like, I don't like this character for some reason, and like Neelix is supremely problematic in the show for multiple reasons, and they highlight the one at the beginning and you mentioned this. He keeps calling Tuvak mister Vulcan in like this funny like hey buddy, mister Vulcan kind of way, and that's awful,

Like Vulcan is a race. Can you imagine having a friend like can you imagine calling me like mister Japanese or mister japan Like I'd be like, the heck are you doing?

of my degree. And one of the things that ethics really likes to do in terms of the formal study of it is try to separate out the individual actors of an individual situation and come up with a more general rule, you know, like you shouldn't kill. I think it's a pretty standard basic or at least you shouldn't murder is a pretty basic ethical rule in most ethical

systems and religions and people points of view. But then when you make it very much more specific, you know, it gets it gets into questions of like, okay, well, is this person a danger? Is this part like you know, all of those kind of things that can happen, And the point is say no, no, we should have a rule that isn't about the specifics, that is.

like this is exactly what happened on Voyage with Jane Way, and then she reads the log and she's like, the f like they murdered him. They killed him. I think that's the name of the episode. They killed him, and the person who is too vexed also reads the log is like, oh, heck no, like I'm not down for that and ends up like capturing other crew members and

two fixing them. So it's kind of like a like invasion of the body Snatchers thing and then like the characters like end up fixing everything obviously, but it's it's

a fun callback. And I liked that the writers of the show were like, yeah, like he murdered that guy, mm hmm, because that's how I feel, right, is yeah, And I think we should talk about this because Star Trek has this framework of morality that has become famous, right, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or one you know, famously from when Spock sacrifices himself come on spoilers, right, like sacrifices himself as Star Trek to the wrath of Khan, and that is often

presented in other Trek franchises, shows and movies as like this absolute, like if if you have the opportunity to save multiple people by sacrificing one, you should do it, and it's it's the trolley problem, right.

outweigh the needs of the many. And I can't think the show has always tried to the overall franchise has always tried to hold those two intentions and recognize that like, yes, overall there's a there's an idea of the needs of the many, but also that can become like we crush the individual in favor of the group, and that that's not okay either.

was going on the Genesis weapon. So it's interesting because like he was, he was also going to die anyway if that happens, right, So I think it does bear more logic in this case. In the TUFAC example, it's very different in my opinion, because the other two are already gone in a sense. There you can say they're dead,

they're not, but they're they're gone. And now you were saying you have to sacrifice one being to bring to two other beings back from a situation like that, and that's and that's like, you know, there are always gonna be variations on the trolley problem, but that to me is like a fundamental difference and why I think this is murder. And and I've seen like Trek producers comment that this was the first instance of capital punishment in Trek and they've noted it that way and treat it as such.

those two kidneys to potentially like save the life of two other people, you know, or like some other thing where like someone has you know, there have been cases of where someone has, like ah, for some reason, like their particular liver is like the only thing where they could have like a very reduced quality of life if they sacrificed part of their liver to save someone else.

And there've been court cases and and generally, I think both ethics and the law and we can debate it, have been pretty firm on the idea of, like you cannot force another person to significantly alter their life just in order to save a potential other person. And that gets into a whole other stream of things. But that's the point is that's not the same as this, because you say in this those two are already gone, and

I think that that's very true. I think though for me, and this is what I think for me, the question becomes even more complex, is that when if we look at the framework of the needs of the many versus the needs of the one.

you can't do that. This isn't just three people living at home and two people have lost their lives and one person has gained a life.

them to survive, let alone get back home. And like, to me, that level of analysis is where I think I can come down on janeway side, but where I also agree that it is a murder that Janeway has created, that has that she has done, and not to I keep mistaking Star Trek for Star Wars and not to pull it back to that, but like to me, Star Wars gives another example of something that I think is one hundred percent a murder in cold blood and is

probably necessary. And it's in Rogue one when Cassie and Andor realizes that unless he shoots his friend in the back who has helped him, his friend is going to give him away and he's not gonna be able to get away, and and the chance to destroy the Death Star is gonna be lost. And I'm just using it as another example. I think there's others where I think that, like, is this morally compromised?

man on this crew. And then the way that they also bring in Kess, who had the relationship with Neelix, and he Tuvis tries to kind of like because he has Neelix's feelings, tries to rekindle the romance and they have like a nice dinner together, and she Kess ends up deciding and making a plea to Janeway saying, if you have this opportunity, like bring them back, bring Neelix back, like I miss him. She cries. It's a deeply emotional scene.

It's one of Jennifer Leann's best performances on the show. It's unfortunately because like she wasn't really given a great chance. Like the character itself herself is not great. But I think she did a great job in this episode and it really drives home the point. And I think it helps us, says audience members, to remember that someone likes Neelix,

like because we don't. And I say that jokingly, but it's I think it's important and it it helps so much because like the bring Tuvac back because you know he's better at his job or like essential for the crew or whatever, like that makes sense. But when you have this emotional tearful please like I miss Neelix, Like that's like the gut wrenching part where like, okay, I think that helps us get over this hop.

the moment she shows on comfort, he pulls back. And I remember kind of wanting him to go over the line so that I could hate him. I wanted to not like him, and he didn't do that. I found other things about him problematic. But I think that's the kind of like I don't want to make this about autism, because like I mean, I'm autistic myself, and like, the discussion about that thirty years ago is so different than

the one today. But there is something to the fact that, like, the people we find socially uncomfortable are often the lives that we aren't quite as quick to play value on. And just to add one more part to it, I think one of the overarching parts of the story that I haven't mentioned yet but is essential, is that all of Jane Wai's idea of I have to get back the I have to get the crew back, no matter what the cost, no matter what the ethical or moral cost.

That is my prime directive stems in part from the fact of guilt, because the show starts with her making a moral and practical decision, her making a moral and principal decision where according to her mortals and principles. She won't allow this technology to fall into the hands of this group called the Kason, who are kind of the clingons of this part of the galaxy, but without the honor that they get. She doesn't want them to be able to force this empire and to take over lots

of people and kill lots of people. And so she does the moral thing, even though practically it means that her crew is now stranded in the Delta Quadrant, possibly forever. And I felt that the show has been pretty clear that a lot of what's causing her to say, like, I will never do that again is her guilt about that and her wondering if she made the right decision.

And so I think that's it's one more part where emotions are playing into this of she feels like she already made a terrible sacrifice for her principles and she can't do it again.

a lot to rescue Chakote. What do you think about kind of the end scene after Janeway makes the decision, Tuvac exits her ready room and is on the bridge and he forces her right to make this confrontation in front of everyone and then makes these the emotional please to the other crew members, and I don't I don't think anyone other than Tuvik's or Janeway says a word, and the uncomfortable looks as he like he walks to each of them, you know, like goes to Paris Tom.

Paris is like Tom, like you're my friend, and he just like looks down, like doesn't look him in the eye. It was so uncomfortable, Yeah, you know, intentionally so.

for his life, he's pleading for his life. But it's also the I think a lot of the times, like you know, the boss pulls us into her office to very privately tell us why they're going to do something that probably the other workers would think is horribly unethical or wrong, and no, like make the boss fire you in public, make the boss tell you in public that the union isn't allowed, that you're not allowed to wear that. Like, I think there's something really a powerful moral statement about

when power does something. Let the people who are like who you know, who they have power over, they have to see that. And in a similar way, I think what the doctor does is it's just a five second thing. They never talk about it, but it's so essential because and I'm rarely going to quote Ned Stark as someone I look to for moral guidance because I think he's kind of the from Game of Thrones and a Song

of Ice and Fire. I think he's a character who has often looked at as the person who lets his principles go too far, and I think I largely agree with that, But one of his core principles, which I do agree with is that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword like anytime he sentences someone

to die. And I fully disagree with capital punishment, but I agree with this like I think, like if you're on a jury and you sentence set capital punishment, you and the district attorney or whoever's the prosecutor should all have to collectively press that button, Like you cannot decide a person should die without you having to be the

person who does it. And what the doctor does is winds up putting Janeway in that exact And I think that's part of why I think, because Janeway agrees with that without having she didn't thought I can think about it before, is why she doesn't make the doctor do it. She doesn't make She's just like, you're totally right, you're fine, and then she goes ahead and she even tells the because what the doctor.

she wants to live with that responsibility. And like we see Kess be happy that Nelix is back and Janeway kind of acknowledges that you back, but I think she's still pretty haunted by it, and I think that's very important.

this to I think sadness. I don't know, Like it's it's a very beautiful scene and Kate mulgrew does such a great job again like with no dialogue, Like it's just she's just walking and her face is like gradually changing as she leaves Sick Bay and leaves you know, the the other characters behind, so she has like her I'm the captain face and then like we see her personal face like how she actually feels, and it's a

transformative facial expression. It's just a great I don't know, it's twenty seconds yeah, of just watching a person and it's beautiful. Like these kinds of moments are what make this episode affective. And it's like all silence, you know, saying how none of the other bridge crew say anything. It's just their facial expressions. But they're consenting, right, Like they are consenting to this or they're not objecting to it, but they cannot look too vix in the eye as they consent.

silence is consent to some extent. It's why I when when when I was part of when I lived in California, in the state of California killed someone, I would feel like, you know, I had been part of that, and I would say say that to folks that like every person in the state of California just murdered someone, and I voted against the death penalty any chance I got. But still it was the state doing it in my name,

and it's Janeway doing it like that. I want to interject here, I want to bring in some comments from other sources on this. First of all, just to say, as kind of a tribute to the episode, this episode came out in nineteen ninety six.

they were late directly the things we've said. First, we were talking about how there's an extent to which, well, I think we both think that this obviously has an effect on Jane Way that, as you pointed out, we never actually hear the word tuvox set tuvix set again and that that's I think a real failure.

When this episode came out, like DDR was still barely a thing, and like certainly there wasn't streaming or anything like that, And I think as a result of that, the expectation was that most people wouldn't watch every single episode, and so writers often didn't want to put someone in a situation where if they hadn't watched a previous episode, they were now going to turn off the current episode.

And I think that a part of that is that they sometimes when they try to have things that were not purely episodic, they were like somewhat serialized in terms of the Jane Way before this episode is different than the Janeway afterwards. They would do that, but they wouldn't go back to it. And I guess what all I'm was saying is I think that if the show was written today, they absolutely have brought it back. I think it is a failing of the show that they don't.

But I also think that someone having to do with like this is some of the first times that true episodic television was trying to be more serialized, and so I give them some credit for it, although I'll say DS nine obviously did it much much better, so I'm not really letting them off the hook, but I'm saying I think that I think understanding that context helps to explain why they didn't why they never went back.

that the crew got to know him. But if this were a modern television show, I think it would have been much more interesting to just like have the episode end with two Vix existing and have even like two or three more episodes where we have two Vix as a character and then have this, oh, by the way, like we can fix this now and go back, And that would have been amazing, right, like for a show to do something like that. But yeah, like I get

the conceit of the episodic nature the actors. You know, you cannot have the two main actors not be on the show contractually or for whatever reasons. So yeah, like this had to happen in this way in nineteen ninety six a shame.

Vix Oh, like, I guess that was the name of the previous episode, I didn't watch it, and then give them like that hint.

help to make one side of the argument. But I think the point is that it's supposed to be so difficult, so in some ways they feel like the only way you could do that is if yes, you gave everyone

a chance to like Tuovex a lot more. But also there was like like they get in a battle where two Vix does a really good job, but Tuvac would have been better and like the crew is put in danger, like to have something to give it both sides of like, yes, we're really getting to know Tuvix, but we're also seeing the problems of not having Tubac and DLX in some way.

show like this. And so yeah, I think maybe a modern show, especially with like the digital technology they have now, they would have had the opportunity to have that persistent damage to be like okay, like in this battle, like this part of the ship got a little blackened, and now like going forward, we're going to keep that because it would not cost as much to like chain alter that footage.

pretty well, who's another fantastic person. The second so there's another comment we got from Casey Lauder, a Scottish judge who I've become friends with, and this I think really speaks to a lot of what we're talking about. And she writes, I don't think there is a right answer. There's plenty of wrong ones. Just as it's possible to commit no mistakes and still lose, I think it's possible

to do everything correctly and still be wrong. And that hit me particularly hard because I saw a couple of people compare this to the next generation, where a lot of times in the next generation, you know, Jeordie or someone else will come up with some kind of technological way of squaring the circle, you know, of allowing Tuovics to exist while bringing those two back or someone else.

And I do think one thing to Voyage's credit is that, in part because it doesn't have the resources within the show, they don't do that a lot that often, and they'll just say, like, no, you really have to make one of these two choices. And another friend of mine made a joking comment, but I think it's actually very accurate here on Casey's comment, and he wrote, I don't you know, I don't believe in a no win scenario, but I think that this is like Captain Kirk could not survive

in The Voyager. Like they're all what Jane Way has faced with all the time are no win scenarios where there is no good answer. There's having to choose what is the least bad. And I hate that and I will always like, I think it's very easy to ethically to sit in an ethical armchair and critique her, and I'm doing that, and I think though that part of the whole point of the story is but yeah, this is the situation she's in and there is no right answer, and she's doing the best she can.

Voyager's storyline of being isolated. And yeah, you mentioned earlier that like they need to voc to survive, is like an interesting argument.

fans will have an opinion on it.

draw that line? I have no idea.

to sacrifice themselves to be two vix? And I think Janeway even makes this kind of argument like that she has to advocate for those two because they're not here, and and that's like another component of it. I think that that is important to ask, you know, the sci fi premise of it even with the sci fi framis, you can't ask Tuvac and Nelix how they feel. And even though Tuo Vix is a synthesis of them, he's not the like. He is his own person, and that's a very important part of all.

bias from the reasons you're doing things. But the flip side of that is, if you have an emotional bias that makes you want to make a decision, it's very easy to come up with non emotional reasons why you.