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Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics.
The Penguin was a show that caught a lot of people by storm, was really popular when it came out and raised all sorts of great questions. Due to the thankless task of flying halfway around the world, Reeky has watched all of it in one plane flight. I watched most of it when it came out, and today we're going to be talking about that show starring Colin Ferrell
and Christian Malodi. So right off the bat, for those who haven't seen it, there will be some spoilers in this, including a big spoiler at the end, So if you haven't watched it, definitely recommend hitting pause watch it. It is phenomenal, or just being comfortable being spoiled because there's a big twist at the end, reaky overall, What do you think?
Well, I also want to say it's Kristin Miliotti. Oh thank you, much more Italian sounding name fitting me. What did I think of this show? I going into it. I'm gonna start going into it. I wasn't that excited, but when you're flying to Japan from California, you have like a ten hour flight and you need stuff to watch. I was like, oh, it's like barely gonna fit into the flight, so you know it is superhero adjacent. So I decided to watch it, and not only I would
say I was pleasantly surprised. I was blown away.
Yeah, and I.
Knew going in like it was very critically acclaimed and people loved it, but I didn't dig too deep into why. And absolutely Colin Ferrell the performance of his lifetime up to now. I'd say, I think he's been winning awards for it rightfully. So the makeup is obviously like you can just look at it and tell or not tell that it's him and be like what, But his acting, too, like sells the role. It is not just the makeup that makes him disappear, like he himself disappears into this
performance is the penguin. And then the opposite him, Kristin Miliatti, who most people probably know as the mother from How I Met Your Mother. Kind of a thankless role the way that show was set up, and you know, it has nothing to do with her or how she portrayed the role, but I would say maybe she is as good or even better here, And just like the two
of them together, it was so electric. And then, as you said, the ethical questions and considerations of this, given that it's basically a mob story, it's like, well, there's a lot of crime going on, but within the timing. There's some some interesting things to discuss, right for sure.
And and just to further set the scene for those I haven't seen the show, U, the character is the same one that was set up in the Matt Reeves The Batman Robert Patterson movie The Batman. The Penguin is a small character in that but one that really kind of caught a lot of people's eye because Colin Farrell was so good in it and the makeup was so good,
and so they gave him the spin off show. And it is all taking place in the world immediately following that movie, where there's been massive disruption because of all the events that happened in that movie and things like that. And one of the things that happens in that movie is the fall of the leader of one of the major crime families in town, the Falcones. And now this is the show is mostly about kind of the various groups at tempting to fill.
The vacuum for that.
And yeah, I just want to comment on the movie The Batman so also surprisingly good given you know, like Robert Pattinson people were skeptical of I thought you gave
a great performance. The the movie kind of is sets up a no man's land situation from the comics where Gotham City falls to I think in the in the comics is an earthquake and is cut off from the rest of the country and it devolves into like fiefdoms of gangs controlling the city, and Batman is like slowly helping the Gotham Police Department take the city back from
these gangs, and there's like no outside support. It doesn't go that far in the movie and the Penguin, but I think it's definitely like the inspiration for what is happening here.
Definitely, and it's a really interesting story in This is kind of a leap, but I think there's some connections here. The story that they're kind of telling is kind of the a microcosm of what we saw happen in Iraq, where Saddam Musin was clearly horrible and terrible.
And but of course all the reasons we went into that war, you know, based on.
Livest The point though, being that when he fell, there was anarchy and chaos because there was no sort of situation set up to what happens next, and we're kind of seeing a similar thing here in the underworld of Gotham, and this has often been one of the questions is is it better to leave someone in control who is horrible and terrible and doing all these bad things, or to you know, cut off the head of the snake and but then deal with all of that the consequences
of that, and that I think part of you know, the movie is about that decision.
And and I don't think there's any a moment in.
The show where we're thinking it was the wrong decision, but it definitely is reminding us, like, yeah, arresting the head of one crime family does not by any means deal with that issue. Like the whole crime family is still there, all their operations are still there. It just means now there's a lot more fightings. You who takes it over?
Yeah? And spoilers. I mean this, this spoiler is obvious. But the penguin takes over because it's his show. Yeah, And it brings it brings to light like how many shows are there where the protagonist is a bad guy or like a villain and a super villain like from the comics, But he's been toned down a lot in the past thirty years to be like this more mob based, like not as super villainy, right, let's say, compared to like a joker, And I think.
That kind of fits the first with the Christian Bale movies,
but then even more so with Matt Reeves. We're making it much more of a this is a detective with a lot of fancy toys, rather than being anything kind of supernatural or mystical happening in this even with his villains, and you're right here with a penguin among other things, Like there's often a lot of kind of anti Semitism in some of the portrayals of him before, especially with the long nose and stuff like that, that's all been caught away, but even looking at like the Danny DeVito
kind of portrayal of him being like born with like webbed hands and web feet and having this kind of ability to communicate with penguins and and and being, yeah, this kind of like different kind of human mutant type thing.
All that's cut away.
This is a guy with he has a limp that makes him kind of wattle, and he had because of a bad leg, and he just but he's a normal human being who's a mobster. And I really do like that because you're right, I think This show is kind of unique in that not completely.
I think like Breaking Bad is maybe one of the.
Best connections to it, one of the best similar things to it, or The Sopranos in that because a lot of times a mob show is well, this person wants to make it better, you know, like Michael Corleoni who always wanted to fix the family and take them legitimate, or other people who are like where the hero is someone who's infiltrating the mob but maybe gets like pulled into it.
Luke Cage and Sex Season two becomes a lot of that.
This is just a straight out mobster, and we kind of learned, like at first he appears as a sympathetic mobster where he's he's being bullied and he's got this really horrible relationship with his mother, and there's all these things set up to make you feel bad for him, and one by one those are kind of stripped away as you realize this guy's been kind of an ethically a monster since he was a kid, including allowing one of his brothers to die was it one or two
his brothers, both of yeah, both of his brothers to die so that he could get more of his mother's love. And yes, the kids had been bullying him a little bit and that's not great. But it's clearly like no, like he's at first it seems like it was a terrible accident because he was trying to just get justice for bullying them. And no, it's eventually revealed like he is a monster. He killed his brothers at a young age and part of why his mother's always treated him so bad is because she knows this.
Yeah, And to be clear, like the killed he did not personally, they like murdered them, right. He tricked them into like this underground tunnel and then locked the door behind him, and it was raining at the time, so it's our It could be argued that he didn't know that they would die, but he definitely like trapped them in a really bad place, right, and just like lied to about where they were.
Yeah, even if his original intent wasn't to kill them, certainly when one of the people were like, they could die if we don't find them, where are they?
And yet as you said, he lied and he said he had no idea.
And I are like he's lying to himself right, like psychologically like he has he is in such a state of denial that he doesn't believe that he did these things, at least like to the audience, and like he never admits it.
Yeah, I think that's one of the things that kind of left open, and I, you know, again, I don't want to Even as I was hearing myself say that, I wanted to back off it a bit because I think the idea of like, you know, people are just like good people or monsters is not applicable. And an eight year old who's doing those terrible things like that comes from somewhere, and you know, those people can still be be real abated at it or saved when it's
happening at such a young age, but sometimes not. And yeah, obviously there's just so much complexity to that relationship that I feel like, I don't know if he's lying to himself or if he just doesn't quite like accept the consequences of what's happening or or what And I think I to me, I think that's very intentionally left vague, and I kind of love that, and I think it's probably be explored further in later seasons, but because right now, yeah, I don't know if he was, as you said, kind
of lying to himself or kind of thinking, well, they deserve this, but I'm sure eventually that someone will find them and they'll be okay, or if he really was setting out to be like I am going to kill these people so that I have more time with my mother.
Yeah, and I agree with what you said that the show is presenting him in a way that they they kind of do the Seesaw act of is he sympathetic
is he not? I mean, in the first episode, he straight up murders Alberto Falcone, who is like the nominal air Falcone crime family, and does it in a very cold blooded way, like they are having like a friendly drink, and then I think Alberto insults him and he just like doesn't even say they just pulls out his gun and shoots it right like, and it's it's done in a way that's like, oh, yeah, this is this is the character. This is who the penguin is or Oz. I like that, by the way, But first off, they
dropped the cobble pot. He's just his last name is Cobb, and then most of the time his first name is still full name is Oswald, but most people just call him Oz. And it was like a nice change of pace. I felt like to make him a little more grounded and real, because oftentimes comic book characters have names that are a little out.
There, right, and the comb pot often is connect to him, the idea of him being born to very rich parents, and they've kind of gotten rid of that entirely. I will say, just on the with Alberta Alberto, what's the son's name again, it's albert Alberto Alberto.
Thank you. He doesn't just insult him once.
He's really braiding him and kind of like attacking everything about him. And I think that's it's It's the perfect seesaw moment because we are supposed to feel so sympathetic for him. He's being bullied, he's being badgered, he's being treated like he's absolutely nothing, and you're kind of like, yeah, if you were like to smack this guy across the face.
Oh my god, he just killed him.
Yeah, I.
Was the surprise.
It was like you because you again, like the premise of the show, you understand like he's going to take over, he's probably going to kill most of these people, and you're like, oh, like, how is he gonna get Oh, he just did it.
Now.
It was like the feeling of it and That's the interesting thing is like he's very impulsive in that way he does. He does this multiple times, and it's really like his silver tongue, like his talking that gets him out of it, Like he talks his way out of so many situations. And that that too is like a contrast to many other villains and or heroes right who use their powers, their superpowers to get out of situations. I guess his superpowers is talking.
Yeah, he doesn't.
He doesn't have super strength, he doesn't have swimming ability. All he has is like charisma twenty one, an advantage on like deception and persuasion roles. And I feel like the thing with him is that they keep making him sympathetic but then having him overreact to what you think would be expected. Because even when his brothers get locked up and then die through his actions, I remember the kind of the way that scene starts is that the
three of them are going out to play. I think I'm like hide and seek, and the two of them hide in an area that's really hard for him to get to because I think he has a brace on his leg.
And I remember, particularly as a disable.
Person, feeling this incredible rush of sympathy for him that these kids were kind of being jerks because they're actually make He says like, look, I can't climb down to find you, and they say, no, you have to, even though it's difficult and dangerous for him, And I felt so sympathetic for him, and because the kids are kind of being little shits and the way kids are, and
but they don't deserve to die for that. And so when he first locks them in, it's kind of like, yeah, okay, that's fair, Like give them a dose of their own medicine. Let them, you know, have to be trapped for a little while, and then of course go let them. Okay, well you're gonna go let them out now, right are Okay it's raining, now you're gonna.
Go let no. Oh nope, he's just he's killing them, you know.
That's what I kept feeling, is like his initial reaction is justified, but then he goes so much further than you're thinking.
Not about justified, but relatable definitely, Like there's a ladder he can't get down, and he like spots them with his flashlight and he's like that's good enough, right, Like I caught you with the light beam. I think is the phrase or something, and and like, no, you got to come down here. It's like, but but I can't. Yeah, So it's it is relatable to have an emotional outburst,
I think. But then it is is I don't know, calculated, the calculated way that afterwards, like he doubles down on it or just like continues on that path is what makes him a monster in this case, you know, not a maybe not a murderer, but responsible for their deaths.
Well, and let me ask more about that, because if I remember, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we discussed the show when I was watching it, and you had said one of the reasons you were interested in it is that generally you don't love shows that are just about you know, bad people where there isn't really a hero figure.
Yeah, yeah, I mean you mentioned Breaking Bad, like I've never been interested in watching Breaking Bad, Yeah, for that reason. And it's, you know, part of it is the main character, like I know enough about him, like I've seen stuff and like the crime aspect, so yeah, I would say like this one, and what kept me hooked was honestly the character of Victor.
Yeah.
The more we haven't talked about. But is essentially his protege right and kind of becomes like an adopted son figure in this story and I love go Ahead.
Victor is someone who he finds because there's a couple of people who are robbing his car, just like you know, like seeing the hobcaps, you know, because this is kind of just a pretty bad neighborhood right now.
And he responds by shooting them.
And I don't remember if he actually kills any of them or if he just drives them off, or he definitely wounds a couple.
I don't I don't think he hits anyone he shoots at that ends up hitting his own car, which yeah, is mentioned later.
He definitely compell a lot of fear into them, and Victor is the one who doesn't get away. And Victor has a very bad stutter at this point, and I think is otherwise like he's kind of the runt of
the group. I think Penguin really sees both. He kind of is like has the kind of like I've survived this, and I'm mad at you that you're not this, but also a lot of sympathy for him, and it builds this really interesting connection where Penguin is both like bullying the hell out of this kid and threatening his life, but also, as you said, kind of making him a protege and turning him into like a minime.
Yeah.
And I love the parallel of their introduction, at least to me, Like I read it as a parallel to Batman and Robin Jason Todd Robin who is trying to steal the Batmobile or steal his upcast or something. It's rims and that's how that's how they meet. And so like when I saw that, I was like, oh, yeah, this is this is cute.
Yeah, it's very much like the Mirror Universe version of that.
Yeah, and I just want to acknowledge. Victor Aguilar is the character's name, played by Renzi Felise and does a pretty good job like not a stand up but again when you're up against these these superstars giving amazing performances, like he he is never distracting, and that's he's good for this role.
Yeah.
I think he's still pretty young. I think the actor was like probably around eighteen. He might have been seventeen, might have been like nineteen, but uh, actually no, forgive me,
he's a good deel older. He's twenty seven, but he looks a lot younger, but he's someone who, like, if you told me he was I agree that he wasn't the standout actor of this by any means, but if he told me he was in something that would make me want to watch it, Like, I definitely feel like I want to see what this kid can do.
And you mentioned his stutter, and I thought one of the best scenes in this show. There's a lot of great ones, but one of the best scenes to me was when Penguin takes into a fancy restaurant mm hm and they're ordering their food and he's stuttering because he's very nervous, like he's never been in a setting like this, and the waiter interrupts him and like finishes his sentence for him, like the order. He's like, oh, you want this, and the penguin just snaps and says you, like, you
don't do that, like, don't interrupt them, let him finish. Yeah, And it is like bonding moment because the penguin has a physical disability and really like emphasizes with Victor's stutter and like wants him to not be put down because of his disability.
Well, and it's such an interesting moment because if you count the total number of times that Victor is bullied because of his stutter, probably eighty five percent of them or from Penguin himself, and there's some degree what it's trying to him, trying to help him, like come on,
get over this, and with a tough love approach. To some extent, it's just him being frustrated, but it feels very much that kind of dynamic of like as your big brother, I get to bully you, but I will protect you like like hell from.
Anybody else, you know, and I and to me, that was a very.
Striking dynamic and in one that's like fairly toxic but also makes complete sense for where Penguin is coming from. And you see why it works so much for Victor, Like not so like all the bullying, but like this, this moment means so much to him, and his daughter gets better as the show goes on, as he gains more confidence.
I have to say, I don't remember that dynamic to them, hm hm, but like so like this moment stood out. And then I think at the end in the final episode, Victor gives like a full speech, like a rallying speech the Penguin, like we gotta you know, we gotta do this thing and win in the end, et cetera. And he compliments him on it. I mean he he razes him and he's like that, that's this. You memorize that speech, you practice that, like, but does it in that I'm
very proud of you right otherly way? And it is a it is a complicated relationship for sure. And there are definitely moments where you think that Oz is gonna kill a victor, including like the very first one, because like that he says he's going to he's like hey, like he forces him to help him get rid of Alberto's body, right, and it's like, well, now I got to kill you because you know, but then decides not to and takes them on as this prota in crime, which is not good. But that is what kept me
hooked on this show was their relationship. It was strangely heartwarming, it really was.
And it's I think you're very right that there's a very intentionality about how it mirrors Batman and Robin, especially Jason Todd, and that speech at the end, like, if you take it out of context, this feels like any speech, you know, it feels like Captain America speaking to the Avengers when they're down and broken and being like, no, we need to stop fighting with each other.
United, we can do this.
But he is talking to a group of people who Penguin has tried to unite to work together for a common cause, and they're all fighting with each other, and he gives us great stirring speech to get them to rally together. The thing is that Penguin wants an all rally together to be one unified crime organization under Penguin's direct control. And he's rallying them to go and like,
you know, kill people together. And so it's just such a weird moment because it's very much this like heroic moment for a cause that is incredibly unheroic.
I have an interesting direction, Yeah, I want to take this, like you mentioned, under his control that I don't know if I would put it that way, Like he definitely wants to be like at the top of something, right, but I don't know that he wants to control everything necessarily.
And to me, one of the most interesting threads throughout this show was what I would call crime socialism, if that makes sense, in that constantly like we are being told or shown that like the heads of these families, the thought Cones and the Maroney's, which are like the two famous crime families in Gotham City, did they control everything right? And under them is like these whole organizations of mobsters and they don't get their fair share and
the families at the top are hoarding all this wealth. Right, and so when when this it's it's a revolution, this revolution and crime happens. I don't mean like like they're doing something new, Like the people underneath are revolting against the top and getting rid of the heads and saying no, like we want our fair share. And part of the
reason Oz succeeds is like he feeds that message. He says, you know, like you all are doing the hard work out here of crime and you're not getting your fair share, Like I want us to share the wealth.
Right, he gets like all the second and third in commands to like lop off the head of their own organists.
Yeah, it's it's crime socialism.
Yeah, I think it's true.
And I think yeah kind of what he wants is almost kind of a feudal thing where it's like everyone has got to give him respect and like send him a take. But he's not gonna be giving them all direct orders. And I think that the idea of respect is really key to this because that's the thing that drives him again and again, is that he feels like
his place and things should be respected. It's when he talks about why he had to kill Alberto, he talks about how disrespected he was and that his value was not being respected.
And that's one of the dynamics with his.
Mothers that his mother is saying to him, like, you have to be respected, you have to earn you know your place in the world. And and like you know earlier said that, we eventually learned that, like the reason why his mother treats him the way she does is in large part because she kind of knows that he killed his brothers.
That doesn't make the way she treats him good. Like they have a very.
Toxic relationship in both directions, and like to extint, she's pushing him or he's pushing her, is very mixed up. But this whole dynamic that he has is that he wants to have his place in the sun. He wants to be respected in that kind of a way, and it's incredibly toxic. But you also see all the way, all all the places that it comes from.
Yeah, and there's also like his relationship not just with the criminal elements, but with the respectful elements of Gotham City, right he has he develops this working relationship with I think it's council member Haiti Yep, a member of the city council, and kind of like blackmail like forces him to do a thing restore power to Crown Point, his neighborhood, which has been devastated by the actions of the Riddler in the Batman movie. He's like, hey, like, these people
deserve power, electricity and gets him to do that. And that's one of the things that Victor cites is like, no one else cared right about this neighborhood. You gave them electricity, you gave them dignity, you gave them jobs, criminal jobs like distributing, manufacturing, distributing drugs, but jobs. You gave them jobs, you paid them fairly.
Mh.
And again, like, this is what I found very compelling about this show and why I kept watching despite the monstrous acts that the penguin performs, like in his crime, is that he also did this thing which no one else cared about these people, and it was this element of like you know, I called it crime socialism, but also this is like he cared about the people.
And I think this is something that can get kind of laughed off, but it's actually like something we see all the time in both real life and in other mob stories. Like if you've read the book The Godfather, you know that, like the way he comes to prominence in his community is because you know, the cops and the government have basically written off like, oh, they're just dirty Catholics, they're Italians, they're not good Americans like us.
And so he you know, provides kind of policing and he provides like community help and he helps people get you know, you know, things taken care of that the government should care about. And like that's why you know, mobsters in New York in the seventies and eighties, when
they're getting arrested, like the community loved them. It's why Pablo Escobar was so popular in parts of Columbia because you know, I mean, he was doing horrible things in a lot of his popularity was they would kill you if you didn't like him.
You know, he brought.
Government services to lots of people who weren't getting them and that's true of you know, the one of my favorite TV shows, Warrior, talks a lot about how the Tongs were doing that for Chinese immigrant communities in Turn of the Centry, CA, California, and and so this idea of you know, it's it's beneficial to him because it's yeah, it kind of is making him legitimate in the eyes of the community, but it's also helping him build his power base.
To me, that feels very real, and I really appreciated that. Yeah, it is.
To me like I've always I've always liked villains in comic book stories who are complicated because they're villains, yea, but they are seeking progress, I guess, is what I would say. And that is what makes Penguin good. And and like so often in these stories, the villains are seeking progress in an unhealthy way or in a way that probably enriches them too much. But like the hero, what makes it interesting is when the hero comes to stop them. The hero is fighting for the status quo,
which is also perhaps not the most well balanced. And so that's why like, villains like this are compelling because they are they are He's fighting for himself and his own wealth and enrichment, but you can see the elements where it's like, yeah, this.
Is yeah, he's got this under sense of right wrong and very screwed up one.
And part of it is that anyone who stands in his way is has like lost any moral right to live. But he also has a sense like like you know, when Victor is getting treated badly in that restaurant, He's like, no, this is not okay. And and similarly he stands up for other people like that, and I think that's I think one of the most interesting things about him is that it's easy and it's tempting to try and put
people into one of two camps. Either they're moral and good and they're fighting for what's right, or they're only fighting for the good of other people so that they can earn their trust and their adoration and and for all these negative reasons. And I think Penguin is generally both. He respect, he craves adoration, and helping the people in
his community is a great way to get that. And if I remember also, like getting the city services turned on in this neighborhood also really helps his drug operation. That requires like running water and power in order to make the drugs that he's trying to make. But also he does have a sense that this is not okay, that these people should be getting power, and that after a disaster, the idea that city services are mostly helping the rich and the more well off is wrong. And yeah,
I think you're right. It's what's compelling about him because he does have he does feel like I have been wronged and so therefore I want to fight on behalf of everyone else who's been wronged, and that makes you want to root for him until again you realize like he's a murdering bastard and so just it's such as he's such a complex character, and I think that's why we love him so much.
Yeah, I think you're correct. The initial reason is that he and Victor check out like this underground tunnel, like this would be the perfect place for a drug or operation. But you know what we need, We need electricity. It's like, okay, well, let me go talk to the councilman. And it's also like he's moved his mother to the neighborhood and they don't have power in the apartment, and she's she's very cold,
and she wants to listen to her music. So it is like they portray his motivations as selfish, but the way that it connects to the community, and then like yeah again, like he provides jobs and for all, for everything we are led to understand, Like he pays everyone in his organization a fair wage, and it's like okay, like you're doing a thing, Like I don't agree with
the drug part. But interestingly, like it is also portrayed as like a not not a bad drug, right, Like I don't want that to come off wrong, but yeah, I think it's.
More like ecstasy than it is like herold in our cocaine, you know, in terms of like it's probably not good for people to be taking regularly, but it's not like leading to the very negative you know, addiction and death quite as quickly as some of the hard, harder drugs can.
It's a party.
Drug and and interestingly, the origin of the drug is from the system. It came from Arkham Asylum where they were using the drug. They're experimenting on inmates and using it to pacify them because of the effects of like ecstasy, like effects of just making them happy and content.
So Arkham is definitely kind of a character in this as is someone who spent a long time in Arkham for unfair reasons, as we learn, but has kind of been turned into, uh, you know, the kind of like Arkham can turn you into what you weren't even when you started.
Let's talk about Sophia fo Com.
Who's kind of I think the main set the second main character of this show, primarily an antagonist at times, kind of a co protagonist.
Very interesting. So yeah, Sofia Falcone. She later changes her name to her mother's maiden name, Sophia Gigante, played by Kristin Miliatti. She's the eldest daughter in the Falcone crime family, and in the flashbacks it's she's shown to be like the competent one, and the father is like, you're going to take over this empire, which itself is also progressive, right, Like these these stories and crime families are usually portrayed as very misogynistic and very patriarchal, and you hand to
hand down to the first son. He's like, nah, like I'm not going to do that. Like you're you're the good one, You're the one that can handle all this. But then we find out that Carmine Falcone, the father played by the way by Mark Strong my favorite sinestro
because he was the only sings. Carmine Falcone has been murdering I guess prostitutes, right that he's sleeping with, and actually it comes he murdered his wife, Sophia's mother, and then like, when the investigation into that gets too close, he pins it all on her because she has also been kind of investigating and like figuring it out.
And she's importantly the one who discovered the body of her mother.
Yes, yes, and what was it? Like the reporter is talking to her, is asking her questions, and that leads her to ask questions and like investigate. But then I think the crime family murders the reporter and pins it, pins that on her because they had been in contact, Like it makes it much easier for that, right, And.
Again for people who've seen the movie, this is what Selena Kyle discovers about how Carmin and Falcone killed her mother. It's the same thing and as later reveal, because that reason, Selena Kyle and Sophia are cousins because they're for both them their fathers Karmin and Krma killed both their mothers.
Yeah, so Sophia gets sent to Arkham because of this because these crimes have been pinned on her. And it's Arkham Asylum. So you you go in a normal person, you come out a little dark and twisting because they are they are giving these drugs to the inmates and they are doing like shock therapy experiments.
There're setting up situations who are really like you have to kill someone or they have to kill you.
Yeah, Like in the mess hall, the guards are just watching and they're like, oh no, Like this very violent inmate who hates you has like gotten loose and they like force him to have basically a cage match, and it's terrible. Like the portrayals in Arkham, I feel are very accurate to Arkham in you know, comics, in comics, but I hate it, and I hate that that kind of portrayal of criminal justice. You know, quote air quotes justice.
And she comes out a little unhinged and wants revenge and it turns out like the person she needs to get revenge on his os the penguin.
Yeah, And it's because he was her driver.
He was connected to her, and in some ways he didn't necessarily help the framing, but he didn't stop it either, And and there's so much more to the plot that we're not even gonna get into. It's a very complex plot. There's a whole sort of sideline where fighting with the Maroney family, and Clancy Brown plays the head of the Maroni family, and it's just wonderful and just like adding a small little detail that his wife is Iranian and Muslim and that he's picked up some of that. It's
just a beautiful part of the story. And I think just the way they let her be, like we've long had the image of the like sexy fem fetal who could kill you but you might like it, you know, go back to Star Wars and I was talking about Ventres like stabbing someone with her lightsaber and then pulling him close to kiss him.
Sophia kind of feels.
Like the actual thing that that that's inspired by, you know, where she is very deadly, she is very attractive, but she's also not walking around in like you know, six inch Dominatrix boots. She's you know, she looks like a
normal person who is just in this place. And I think like Penguin is like originally a product of her circumstances, but also she you know, like in some ways, I think maybe even a lot worse than what he went through, but comes out of it pretty awful and pretty terrible and pretty willing to kill everybody she.
Has to, and I think she did that.
There were a couple of moments where they start to team up, and I was really rooting for them and I wanted them to team up, but they're they're both because we are so distrusting. They're both so focused on like I have to get ahead, and where she has a family that she is so locked into.
He's the exact opposite.
He is just literally like he's going to be on the side of whoever's holding the gun to his head at that moment.
Yeah, he plays all the sides in this story, and you're it's never it's never made clear, like where he's going to end up. I guess you know he's going to end up on top, but like, is he going to collaborate with Sophia? Is he going to collaborate with Salvatore Moron like he does at various points, and then yeah, when it's inconvenient for him, Mean, he drops them.
I want to say.
The character sophiaf hol Colin was created by writer Joe The character sofiafl Collen was created by writer Jeff Lobe and artist Tim sal and debuted in nineteen ninety seven's Batman The Long Halloween. And you know, I think she was kind of tied in with the Eventually she was kind of linked to the Holiday. I think she was the Holiday Killer in one version and another version she's referred to as the Hangman, and that's in this show.
They she's the like the press that kind of named someone the Hangman because there's a series of hangings and then she, as you say it, gets framed for that, and so they sort of referred to her as that from the start, And yeah, I really enjoy their antagonism
between each other. I know that the show is taking his side, but I think that it also very much like portrays her, Like I think you could have made this exact show with her as the main protagonist and it also be really interesting, and I kind of like wouldn't mind if maybe, like the next thing we get isn't necessarily season two, but the next thing is the Hangman or like, you know, so where we get more of the story and Penguin's the main character, but she's
the main point of view character because yeah, I just think she is another character who's equally as fascinating and how she is monstrous but also very relatable and very like, you know, I support your rights and I support your wrongs kind of a thing.
Yeah, I was gonna say, I remember her in The Long Halloween. I believe in that story she is portrayed as like a large woman because like she goes VI Sophia Giconte in that and she's a giant. She's like the strong woman and gosh, like, I think the conclusion of that story was that Commissioner Gordon's wife was the holiday I seem to recall, which is just like a weird that I love. I love that book.
There's an animated movie based on the book that Paul and I did a whole review on that you can find earlier in this podcast. So we've not got into was perhaps the most ethically complex and like, oh my god, we still like this show now, and for a lot of people it made them all of a sudden stop liking the show, which is what happens at the very end you want to So.
Yeah, funny story about this. You said, I watched the whole thing on the flight. I actually barely missed like the last five minutes. As the plane landed, I was like, well, I got a flight back home, so I'll catch it. And I was like, this is a good show. I
enjoyed it, and like the conclusion was pretty good. And then I got on my flight back home and I actually rewatched the whole final episode just to make sure, you know, I remembered everything, and then the last five minutes just like flipped me completely.
So in those last five minutes, we have this real kind of heartfelt moment between Falcone and I'm sorry, between Penguin and Victor, in which one of the things he's talking about is how the connections that he has in his life have both really strengthened him, but also that his compassion for them has gotten in the way, and that he's talking here both about his mother but also the woman he's had a relationship with, where it's like, I think he's paying her to some extent, but also
they seem to have does some level care about each other, or at least he cares about her and she pretends to care about him. It's all very complex, but when he really when she realizes that, you know, he's helping this guy who killed a lot of sex workers and
other women down, you know, having no troubles. She turns against him and she is ready to work with Sophia against him, and he kind of has this moment of like talking to Victor about how much Victor has helped him and that, you know, the lesson he's learned from this is that he's caring for other people gets in the way, and that that was certain that he was able to play upon the loyalties of the various Falcones to and the Marconi's to get them to help him
or to betray them, because this compassion for others is a weakness. And he's teaching this lesson to Victor and you're getting like, kind of where is he going with this until there's a moment where you realize what he's saying is that he can't do this if he cares about Victor as much as he does, and he kills Victor.
And it's right after Victor says like your family and you say you think or hope that Penguin is going to be like yeah, like I feel the same way, and then like have a good heartfelt hug and then the show ends, happy ending, and then see you in season two where they like crime together again.
No, And to be clear, like Victor saved Penguin's life, and that's part of why he says, your family, I did this for you. And and so there's this moment where you're like, Penguin, how stupid are you? Like you're only alive, You're only successful because of Victor. But I think I think the thing is that it's not that Penguin says, no, what are you crazy? You're you're not family. Penguin saying you're right, you are family, and family holds me back.
And that's why, Yeah, that's why I have to kill you. Because you're a weakness, You're a vulnerability. And this is actually true right in the sense that so many Spider Man stories, the reason he hides his identity like he holds it so close to his chest is that he knows if his identity gets out, as Peter Parker, that his family aunt May Mary, Jane or Gwen Stacy whoever's dating, like they are of vulnerability or they become targets. And in this show, Penguins, Oz's mother became a target and
she she has been debilitated, she's a catatonic. Yeah, she becomes them, He blames them, she becomes.
A target, and people manipulate him with fear of hurting her, and you know, he he manipulates Marcone with fear of hurting Marcone's son, and all the Falconies are kind of Maroney, driven mad by by their own grief about the family. And so yeah, it's this really powerful moment of because right, it even gives us half of that heartfelt moment, but then this realization of just no, he can't be this person.
And I I think if the show had just shown him like laughing off, like haha, stupid Victor, how could Victor ever think that? I wouldn't have loved it. What I think I love is that I would guarantee that in season two he's gonna be haunted by guilt about that, that a part of him is going to hate that he had to do it, and he does because he did genuinely care for Victor, and he's trying to be as hard as nails person who he thinks he has to be. And like, I'm not saying that he's being
set up for redemption arc by any means. I think, like, you know, like a lot of you know, these characters like he's probably gonna come to a bad end, it's probably gonna be deserved. But I think he genuinely cared for Victor. I think he genuinely thinks that he had to kill Victor. And I think that he's really gonna be wrestling in season two or whatever we next get from him with.
How does he feel about that? Yeah, I'm not.
Sure if he'll be wrestling, I don't know. I agree that that could be an outcome here, you know, I would, I would be okay with like a ghost of Victor character that he talks to about it, like it expresses his guilt to that character, but then like outwardly it still acts in the same way. I'm not sure. I
don't even know if we need a season two. It's like they have set up some interesting things, and certainly like at the end of it, we see him adopt the classic penguin suit and top hat because the council member is like, if you want to be in these circles, you got to dress better, Like if you want to be respected, you got to dress respectfully, And so we see him enter that world, but we don't know yet what he's going to do that I think like there
are some storylines where he ends up like running for mayor Oh that was the movie, but I.
Think it's happened in the comics a couple of times where he plays a you know, some some sort of role.
Gotham.
Gotham the TV show played a lot with that idea. Yeah, I think he's supposed to always be the person who lives on the edge of respectability, and he wants respectability, but he's also willing to.
Like he it's sort of like he sees.
All the darkness behind these rich people and these elite people, and so he's willing to do it himself. But he's just a lot more like outrageous about it, and and so he gets rejected.
He doesn't understand that, and it's you know, he's holding up a mirror.
And I really and I think that's one of the most compelling parts about his character.
Yeah, and his disability like deformity, like his look is part of why they looked at on it much. That is a part of his story and why like the character like never fully gains the respect of the people around him. And you know, we can we can say like that's not correct, but it is what drives this character in his stories so often.
You really true.
We could probably do a bunch more episodes on this, and I think this is gonna be a show that we refer to a lot because it touches on a lot of the things we most love to discuss in this podcast. But you don'tly have the kind of last
things you want to say. We are gonna have some bonus content for members that's gonna specifically beyond who are other people in the Batman Rogues gallery that we would think could benefit from having a show like this, or even maybe some other people's rogue galleries, But for our for our non members, and for everybody, any last comments you want to.
Make, Yeah, I wanna like you mentioned Salvatore Maroney's wife. She's played by the fantastic show re Aghdashlou, who has just been in like everything, and she is one of the best voices, like female voices yep in in media, and I just I just love her and in this like as you said, she gets to portray this character.
And I believe, like the subtitles say that she speaks in Farsi, and I'm just gonna trust in that because I do not speak that, but but the Maronis like speak to each other like kind of as like their own coded language so that other people don't listen in and understand what's going on. I thought that was great. Michael Kelly, who we have seen in House of Cards and animated show Pantheon as a fixer, he's a fixer
in this Johnny Vett. He's kind of like the right hand man in the Maroney family, and he is not himself a Maroni, so like he is always in this position of close to power, but never in power, and so you think, like at one point, like maybe he's gonna go for it, and then Sophia just undercuts him and it's another great it's another great crime socialism scene where she kills VD and then like basically to the rest of the people in the room is like he
was the problem right, like he was also hoarding the power and now like you guys can distribute the power and the money amongst yourselves.
One of their actor that I really noted.
I don't know if you've ever seen this, but the show Entourage, a very fun, very problematic show, is not aged well, but the character of Billy Walsh, people will know that actor Reese Corio Reese Koiro is the plays the council member that you mentioned, So that was just fun. He looks so different, act so different. It took me a few minutes to realize who that was.
But there you go, a very minor role. But I think like if there were to be a season two a follow up, I think probably more prominent role. And we didn't even talk about the character of the doctor, doctor Rush, who's a doctor in Arkham who is say, treating Sophia and they have a relationship. Confusing relationship is not made clear, like whether they are sexual partners, but
they definitely have a close relationship. And we could we again, like we could have a whole other episode about portrayal of asylums and prisons in media, and I think we should because this one is terrible, and it's because it's based on comics and it's like doesn't have to adhere to reality, but I think it brings up some things that do are paralleled in reality, that are bad and should be acknowledged in Yeah.
No, I've said before in this podcast, and I think you're right it should get a full episode. Is that I'm often frustrated by how like the idea of a character being locked up, you know, in a mental institution. I've twice spent times in mental health hospitals and they saved my life and I was very glad for it. And I've also had one very bad experience, and I think a lot of people have had similar both pro and good and bad.
This is Arkham Asylum, though this is definitely not one of the good ones.
And while I believe doctor Julian Rush is a new character created for the show, if you've seen any other Batman properties where there are strange doctors off, doctor Strange is one of them, not the Marvel one, but you know, the one from the DC convict world. This character will
feel familiar, and you're right. He has a very kind of complex relationship with Sophia that I feel, in some ways is kind of a fun inversion and I think somewhat intentional on the Joker Harley one, because in this it's kind of the same idea of the patient to seducing the doctor and like bringing the doctor over to the crazy side, And given the gendering of the Joker Harley relationship, I thought that was really fun parallel.
I think you're right. I think for one. The actor is just amazing.
It's Theo Rossi, who people remember either from Sons of Anarchy or from the Daredevil universe.
Uh.
He was a really big part of the Luke Cage shows. And you know, like I would expect that, Like I know Matt Reeves is working on another Batman movie with Robert Pattinson. We might well see him be a character in that. We might see like, this is not create this.
Did Matt Reeves write this show?
I don't think he did, but I think he was like connected and consulted on it.
Probably a producer.
Yeah, that's right, he was a producer. And so I think this is very intentionally. They're kind of creating their own little micro universe with this show and that movie and that whether it's a Penguin season two or like I said, a foal Cone season or another movie, we're gonna get these. This is all part of the same continuity.
Yeah, the kind of what's what I've read is that Colin Farrell will appear as a side character in the next Batman movie, and they're kind of talking about a season two of the show, but he's reluctant to commit to it because of the makeup requirements.
Spent like five hours in the chair every day.
Yeah, it's what the primary person cited as executive for on this as Lauren la Frank and Matt Reeves is credited. But you know, it's it's always hard to tell, like what how much in something like this, So Lauren Lefrank is the highest build executive producers. I think she deserves the most credit here.
Cool.
One of the quick things just that the Internet is telling me is that and it makes sense that Julian Rosh he's very focused on fear and how fear motivates people, and so there's been some that he could be he could he could be the person who becomes Scarecrow.
Okay, So yeah, yeah, whichold makes sense. That's good.
Yeah, Like, I guess we'll talk more about this in our bonus section, but as a general thing, like I'm okay with different origins or like different named characters being these iconic villains, like it, Scarecrow doesn't always have to be Jonathan curright.
So yeah, and I'm this is the whole other story we can talk about because it's part of me is kind of frustrated and partly because I'm like Killian Murphy played that role so well in the I don't want to say Christian Bale movies again, who's the director of the Nolan movies. But if we're just gonna get eight million versions of Batman, this is certainly a really good one.
And this is of the various DC micro universes that are all maybe tied together somehow in the multiverse, this is certainly one I'm most invested in right now.
Yeah, it's a good one.
Well, thank you. I'm really glad.
Like I said, it's been a couple months since I saw the show, but Riki just got back and was like, hey, I watched the show and we hadn't figured out a topic for today, so this was perfect.
Fans, let us know what you think. Would really love to hear your thoughts on the show.
We're not going to do like episode by episode coverage of again, but certainly if there are other major questions from the show that you want to hear us do deeper dives on. I think we really can, especially because we could put it in conversation with some other shows and how we feel about them. Of course, if you want to become a member, it's only five dollars a month, fifty five dollars a year, all the animations in your show notes.
I hope you become a member.
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