The Hunger Games

Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today, I'm talking about one of my favorite sets of books that I actually decided to reread recently because good friend of the podcast and frequent guest, Danielle written in the Star Wars, did a great series of tiktoks as she reread them, and I was just like, Okay, not only does this make me want to reread the books, but this makes me want to talk about those books with her. So, Danielle, welcome, and I'm so glad to hear to talk

about Hunger Games trilogy. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk about it. I haven't been on anything to talk about it other than my TikTok videos. So yeah, awesome, awesome. Well, and let me just kind of start there and ask, so, what was it that made you decide to kind of give these books a reread? Well? I never read The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes when it first came out. I always meant to, but I just kind of kept pushing it off. And I decided

this year that I wanted to go ahead and read that. But before I did it, I wanted to reread the Hunger Games because I hadn't read them since I was probably like sixteen years old, and I'm twenty nine now, so yeah, I figured it was time. I hadn't read them as an adult, so I wanted to do that, and gosh, they held up so well. Yeah I was older, I read them as an adult. But I think when I read them most mostly just like, okay, I want to have an idea what's going to happen in the movies, and utterly

fell in love with them. I think I read them in like two days because I was traveling a lot and getting to go back and read them though it really there was just so much more depth that I had forgotten about, so much more just ways in which I think the book format allows you to explore things that you know. And I think the movies are fun but they

don't really show up on screen. Yeah, definitely. There's something that with Catnis being the first person, which I find is really interesting because it's hard to write first person and get all of the emotions of other characters and of the pop across to the reader because you can be so focused on just the character who's perspective you're telling the story through. But that wasn't an issue with

this. I find there are some things I wish there was a little more exploration of, but the plot is explained very very well to setting everything, even though it's in first person. Yeah, I think the fact that it's in the first person is one of the things that struck me most. I'd forgotten how effective that is. First of all, just because you get so much of her internal monologue and don't we will be talking all about that. We're kind of start in general here, but also that not in a bad

way. I think the way any human being is. She's an unreliable narrator, and so we're constantly seeing both PETA's actions and Gail's actions and her fathers and Snows and Hamade through her perspective, and there are definitely some times where you are like, oh, I kind of wonder what was really happening, And even a few times you're like, cats, You're fantastic, but I want to shake you because you're hearing this in a way that I think is not what was being said, and it just you know, I kind of

felt the same way about a lot of other adaptations like that. There's a way in which the camera is always going to the camera appears to be giving an objective perspective that doesn't actually really make sense. And I feel like, in a world where so much of the book is about doubting your own perceptions because so many others are trying to control who you like, who you don't, how you look at them, having to be from that perspective really helped

to underline that point a lot more. Yeah, I agree, It's it's funny because when you're I think about the first time I read the book, you're with Catnists on this. So you don't know the same way she doesn't know that Peta is only with the careers because he's trying to save her. We don't know if he's only with the careers because he's trying to save her.

We don't know what his reasoning was behind telling hay Mitch that he wanted to train separately after that those first couple of days, just like Catanists doesn't know. And so it's funny to go back and reread it after knowing all of these things, and it's it is so easy to be like Ketnis,

that's not what he's trying to do, That's not what you know. He's trying to save your life, but it's easy to forget that we used to be along the same path as her, wondering what his real motivations were, for sure, And I think it does a really and we'll talk more about this. I think one of the big things we wanna talk about is the

romance among the three of them. But one thing that I really love is how much it shows that her paranoia, her sort of having to look for the worst in people, can be frustrating, but also it's so incredibly earned. Like everything, there's never a moment where I don't think, Like, sometimes you'll read something like that, you're like, come on this, like

it should be obvious. I always believe because Susan Collins, the author, does such a good job of putting you inside her head and her world enough that you understand why she has to treat everyone like that, because you know, you know, it's that idea of like, you know, if if you're trying to tell yourself not to worry too much, but a couple of the times when you didn't worry it actually turned out to be really really bad,

Like, now that's a good reason to keep worrying so much. Yeah, she had to be the protector of her sister and her mother at a very young age. And if she didn't worry, they didn't get fed, they didn't have food, you know, they didn't have semi full stomachs, they didn't have a place to live, they didn't have any of the things

that they needed to survive if she didn't worry. And so when that happens at such a young age, it's natural for that to continue on throughout your life where she gets to the point where she doesn't trust that Peta is being genuine because she has to be suspicious of everything, and it takes her a while to come out of that. I think now, I think it's a

great point. I want to start diving into some of these specific topics, which just one more thing I'm curious your thoughts on, especially because I know you do a lot of writing analysis. One thing that throws me every time I wrote the books, because I always forget, is that they're written in present tense, which is not something we as readers are used to because most novels are written in past tense, as though someone is narrating it to you.

You, what are your thoughts and kind of how either why that was done? Or how it affects how it reads to us. Well. I think it's a couple of things. I think when you're writing in first person, it's much easier to write in present tense as well. So instead of saying I didn't know what to do, you say I don't know what to do, and that it just it feels more natural because it's more of like

almost a stream of consciousness. It puts you in the character's head as a writer and a reader, as in it's as if you're experiencing all of these things along with the character. Instead of reading about something that happened to them, you're reading about something that is happening to them. And I think that is very much key in keeping the reader engaged and keeping the momentum going because it's just it just it just keeps adding on to one thing after the other

after the other. And I watched someone's TikTok, I can't remember who it was. They were talking about why The Hunger Games works so well structurally, and it follows the rule of threes, which is in writing, you have build up certain build ups two events, and it usually happens in like three acts, which is what plays do. And it happens naturally in novels as well. Are it's supposed to happen naturally in novels, but you can manipulate

it a little bit. And Suzanne Collins uses threes. She has three books obviously in the trilogy, and then in each of those books there are three parts, right, so it's separated into three parts. Within those three parts, there are nine chapters. Sometimes there's one less or one more, but there are nine chapters within those three parts. That's, you know, a variable of three. And then within those chapters, most of them end on a cliffhanger, and so those chapters follow the story arc a story arc.

They end on right at the precipice of the story of that chapter, and then the next chapter takes care of it, builds up ends, next chapter takes care of it, builds up ends, and so it's like it's that thing that makes you want to keep reading, And that's why it's so easy to read them so quickly, because you just keep going one after the other after the other. The momentum never ends, and I think that works.

So I'm really going to put it that way. I've never really picked up on that because to me, part of what also conveys is it's the immediacy

for her. Like one of the things that I was thinking. First of all, there's a sense of if I'm reading something that is written in the past tense, on some level, my brain is going to think that means you survived this, you know, Whereas if I'm reading what's basically a stream of consciousness, then I feel like it's more likely the author might be like, you know, and then she died and now here's you know, the

epilogue or something like that. Yeah, But more to the point, I also think when you read it in the past tense, there's often a sense of like the author is able to now see the whole thing and consider what was going on, Whereas because it's written in that present tense, it really I think it helps give that idea of like, this is not a person who there are some times where she gets to sit back and make immediate thoughts, but so often she had you know, prim is called she has to

decide what to do. Peter says he loves her. She has to decide what facial expression to make, Like everything she has to do is in the moment and the present tense. I think part of I think why I was thinking of it is not getting a whole of the tangent. But there's a set of books in a Star Wars universe that I've recently read that we're also

written in present tense, where I felt like it really didn't work. I think part of it is because in that the POV is shifting constantly between different characters, and a lot of it is in the third person, not first person, and so to me this just felt like I was like, Okay, I feel like you can be a gimmick or here is used so so

well. Yeah, I think I think you're correct. In past tense, it is like the author is kind of saying, here's this profound thing we've learned from this story as the story is being told, which which has its merits and can be done really really well. And there are some people who just write that way more naturally, but first person is like, there's not so much time for profound, thought out sayings. In first person, it's

just yeah, they can happen, and they do happen. They happen in the Hunger Games, but it is much more the action that this is what's happening, this is what we have to do. Right, Let's talk about some of the major elements. And what I know, because I know you've commented on this a lot and the even characters, is that there is a romance at the heart of these books, as there often is in Ya,

and it's a love triangle, as there frequently is. But this one was really kind of it felt like flipping the narrative on a lot of the Twilight.

I think it is the easiest example that comes to mind, and Collins has mentioned that it's something she's trying to like go into direction from, but I think it's kind of a long history of that, and so I worked to sharp my kind of getting a sense for you of like what's kind of your thought on love triangles in general, in why romances or romances in general, and then how you feel about how this one was handled. Well.

I find that what we call love triangles shouldn't be called love triangles because for various reasons, if you think about the shape of a triangle, ultimately it should be everyone is connected to each other, so there should be feelings between everyone for everyone. And there are some books that I've seen that do that and that aren't afraid, you know, the intern too, the those types

of feelings. But obviously early two thousands, two thousand tens, we're not going to get that, Really Galena developing feelings for each other, it was just not gonna happen. It's a love V. Is that a better term? Yeah? I think that is a better term because it's one person having complicated feelings for two different people. And so that's my first issue with it.

My second is that usually sometimes this isn't the case. But usually when there is a love triangle or love V you can tell who the author has a preference for and who is inevitably the winner. There's never really a surprise, Like I don't think that Peta being the one who ends up with catanis in the end and not Gail is a surprise. I think that there are maybe as you're reading it, but if you go back and reread it,

it's all there. It's all there in the subtext that if she has to be with someone, it's going to be Peta, it's not going to be Gail. And and so in that case, I'm always just kind of like, I'm not bored in this case because it's Hunger Games. I love the

Hunger Games. That none of it could ever bored me, But there are some where it's just like, if you're going to have that complicated, those complicated feelings between two characters, buy another character, and you want there to be suspensed and you want there to be tension, then it needs to be unbiased. There needs to be a reason for both of them to be possible suitors and not you know, something that just completely takes one of them out

of it. A book that is very clearly about vampires is not going to have your main character run off with a werewolf. Yeah, that's just not how that's going to work. No. I think that's a really good point, and I think that to me, I think one of the things that I really found appealing about it, and Meryelle commenting at the time, is that And again, good quielights the easy one to bash, and I don't want to do that if you did a great episode on Twilight a couple of

months ago on here. But I think a lot of them, often the female character is the one with the least agency, Like there's a kind of like I'm sitting here sighing, wondering which one to pick. I think the thing that I liked the most about how this one played out is that, and I think it shows Catiness's journey so well. Is that for most of the book, at least as I read it, And tell me if you see it wrong, she isn't thinking in terms of who do I really want.

She's thinking in terms of who will who will either bring the most benefit into my life right now or who will do me the most harm if I'm not not that they will do the most harm. But you know, it's like, Okay, I have to be with Peta because of all of this, or no, the only way I can survive is if I'm with Gail. Like there's a there's a real sense of I don't mean that's in a bad way that she's like playing them off against each other, because I think

that it's the survival mentality that they're all in. I'll think Gail a little more than Peter, and that's what I'll talk about later, but like she is the one who has absolutely all the agency among the three of them throughout the entire thing. And I think that was just for me incredibly refreshing and felt like a real change from that, as you said, very standard trope that I think a lot of people, myself included, he had kind of gotten tired of. Yeah, I think I would. I think I would.

I think I would argue that that is the way Gail and petas her. But that's not how Catness sees herself in this situation, because I think Gail and Peta do see her as choosing who is who is going to benefit her the most in this situation, or what she has to do to survive in this situation. But Catness sees it as just surviving. Like she's not. She's not saying, oh, I have to be with Peta because I have to survive. She's She's just looking at what is in front of her

and thinking, I have to survive. This is what it is. And she's not viewing it as romance. She's not viewing it as a relationship.

And I think that's why there's a part in mocking Jay when Peta and Gail think she's asleep, because you always have to have a scene where the two suitors think that they think the girl is asleep, and they are talking about their feelings for Catness and about what she might do, what she might choose, and Gail says it's easy, She's going to choose who she can't who thinks she can't survive without, or who she thinks, you know whatever,

And Catness is hurt by that. She's hurt by Gail saying it. She's hurt by Peta not denying it because her feelings have always been used against her her entire life, and especially since the Hunger Games. She's not allowed to explore her real feelings for Peta because she has to continue on in this facade. She's not allowed to explore it. She's not allowed to think about what her real feelings might be because she has to put up these overly dramatic fake

feelings. And she's not allowed to explore what her feelings for Gail might be because he's, you know, he's trying to get something from her that she's not sure that she wants and but she thinks she might want it, but she's not sure, and she can't because Snow will use that against her, and Coyn will use that against her. People will always use that against her. And so she's taught herself to keep her truth to herself pushed back in the back of her mind so that no one can use them against her.

And so I think for her to hear someone say that she would choose, it would be like math like math for her to choose which one she's going to be with. I think it really hurt her because that's not who she is. She's a very emotional person, and that's what I like that. Suzanne Collins added to that was that, no, like, maybe she will choose the person who she can't survive without, but it's not going to be because of that. It's going to be because she's finally letting herself feel for

the first time. Now, I think you're really right. I think you said that much better than I could, because that, to me, that's kind of what I meant to that. I don't think she's doing it calculating, like I think it is very much that she It is just the survival sense. It's not this cold calculating thing, but that's how it appears to

others. Yeah. Yeah, to me that what you said about the end is very important because to me, that's one of the things that is so beautiful about the the ending chapters and the epilogue is that it's when she finally actually has the ability to choose, you know, that she can allow herself to feel. And one thing that I kind of and again I don't know if I was reading. I don't know if I was reading into this or

if you think it's there as well. Obviously one of the major plot points early in the first book, but it runs through all of it, is that when her mother died, I'm sorry, when her father died, her mother utterly fell apart and just and could not take care of the two kids. And that's a big She couldn't work, she couldn't do anything, and that's a big part of why all three of them almost starved to death, and that Catanis at the age of eleven, had to take care of the

family. And I think that's a, you know, a horrific thing for her kid to go through. I related a lot to her journey as someone who had alcoholic parents at that age and started going to PC meetings from my

sister. But kind of what it made me wonder is is a part of because one thing that I think it is so powerful about it is, as you said, she often want start to feel feelings and stop herself because she's like, I can't allow myself to do this, even to the point of there's so much compassion where she's like, well, but it would be mean to like Peter has to think that I don't have feelings for him, and so it would be mean to like go cuddle with him now, or it'd

be mean to Gail like she wants to protect them. Almost my point all this being, do you think it's fair to say that part of why she's so afraid of that is because she saw how dependent her mother was on her father, that when she lost her father, her mother just broke. Yeah, and that a part of her on some level is like, I don't ever want to be that dependent on someone else because I have all I have to take care of Haymans, I have to take care of my mother and

sister, I have all this responsibility. I can't be vulnerable like my mother was. Yeah, I think there's I think there's a part in either catching Fire I think it was. I think it is catching fire where she thinks

that, where she thinks is this. It's somewhere along the lines. I hope I'm not who, I'm not misremembering this, but I feel like there's a part either catching Fire or marking Jay where something happens to one of them and catness feels a little more sympathetic towards her mother because she realizes, is this what she felt? Is this like absolutely paralyzing, destroying, feeling what she felt? Who am I to say that I wouldn't have ended up the

same way? And I want to say that you see this, you see this in the way that she feels. Because when Gail gets whipped within an inch of his life and Catching Fire, she is beside herself. They have to take her out of the room. She can't deal with it. And when Peta sorry, when Finnick has to bring Peter back to life in Catching Fire in the arena, she is beside herself again. She won't move, she won't leave. She stays there with him until someone brings him back to

life. And then at the end of Catching Fire, I believe in the beginning of mocking Jay, the whole thing with Peta, she's ready to go kill Peta because she doesn't want him to be tortured when she thinks that he's still there, when she doesn't realize that he's been kidnapped by the Capital, and when she sees what the Capital's done to him and she realizes that it might be her fault. That Snow might be ready to kill him if she

says anything wrong. She can't speak, she can't do what she needs to do to survive and to help others survive because of that debilitating feeling, and she I think she sees that in herself, and I think she recognizes it, and it's only when everything's over and done that she lets herself fully feel that, right, because I think one of the things that happens is that

she no longer feels like she has to live for someone else. Yeah, there's this crushing I think codependency that she hadn't mean and like it's a kind of easy word to be, like to judge someone else. I don't mean it in that kind of a bad way. But she has to live for her sister, She has to live for her mother, she has to live for pame At, for Gail, for kid, his siblings and all that. And I think part of what happens at that end there is that she's

able to be free of that. And part of its tragic because I mean, her mother has now gotten better enough that she can take care of herself, but also her sister is dead. Yeah, but also that now that all this to me I mean, one of those heartbreaking things throughout it all is the part of why she doesn't ever want to be with someone is because she fears getting pregnant and having kids because then those kids would be subject to

the Hunger Games and all that as well. Yeah, so, you know what I think is really interesting you saying that, like she's had to live for someone else up until the very end. I think we see that like get chipped away a little bit. And part of that has to do with her being in the Hunger Games, because before she was in the Hunger Games, she had to live for Prem, and then when she's in the Hunger Games, part of her is still like, I have to get back to

my sister. I have to get back to my sister. But apart with Ru, where she thinks she thinks about if it's just her and Ru at the end, and she's like, I have to get back to Prim. But wait, Prim has people. Prim has Gail, Prim has their mother, Prim has PETA's father, everyone in District twelve who promised they would look after her. Prim has Ru has nobody in that arena except for Catnes,

and that catness separates in her mind. Prim has what she needs. I have to be here for Ru, so she's living for Ru in that situation, and then in the end, after Ru dies, Catness has to kind of live for herself for the first time instead of for someone else. And each time she's in the arena, she decides what she's going who she's going to be living for, if it's herself, if it's someone else, And I like that we see that ship away in each book until in the end

she doesn't have anyone else to live for. She has to find a reason to live for herself. One of the things I thought was so powerful was just reading how she feels about keeping Peter alive in book one verson book two, because in book one, I mean she went through this whole thing and first of all thinking that he was a career and that he was trying to kill her, and also not understanding the declaration of love and not knowing if it's fake or what, and also this feeling of oweing people, which I

want to get to in a second. But when she does go to save him, she's very clear in her head it's because she feels like she could never go back to District twelve if she did let him die, Like there's a real sense of she wants to take care of him, but also it's a constant like I need to keep him alive so that I can Again, not in a calculing way, it's just it's just the immediate where her plan goes. Compare that to book two, where she goes in fully resolved to

die so that he can live. Yeah, and it's no longer about you know, at this point, like both of their families are in their Victor village and his family isn't. His family is doing well because they're merchants sort of. You know. It's not about like I have to live for someone else. It's just that about like she's convinced Petas is better than her,

and she owes it to him to to try and live. I also think it is a little bit of a cop out on her, like I'm not, I'm not on both their ends wanting to die for each other because they couldn't stand the idea of living. Yeah, and knowing that their life cost the life of a person that they care deeply about. And Katness isn't ready to call that love yet Peta is. But neither of them can stand a living that way, And and so I mean, I don't mean it in a rude way, but it is a little bit of a cop out.

Is to kind of says this in the book to her. You know, she's thinking it it would be worse to live than it would be to survive in this case, And I think, yeah, yeah, no, I think that's such a good point. And it's I know you made a made a I know you were poking fun at the idea, but he made a TikTok about like, no matter how in love you'll be, you'll never be the two of them fighting to keep the other alive. And I responded with, actually, i've been in codependently tips, Yes, I have been.

It wasn't good. It's a it's a love that's nice to read about, but in practice is not so fun. Yeah, And I think that's that's part of it, is that, like I think if it had just been that that love gets to continue into book three, it would have been a lot worse. The fact that it's challenged again. Yeah, and it's funny.

I never even thought about this, but throughout the whole book, she is constantly questioning his motives for the whole series, and one of the things that the that the Capitol does that snow does to him is to now make him question her motives. And that's the thing, and they never thought about it this way, But yeah, I think that kind of puts them on almost an even level, that they now both had to go through this because I know she always feels like she can never live up to him, Yeah,

because he has always loved her and she hasn't. Yeah. Yeah, I think that there was a lot. One thing that was holding her back is that Peter has always put her on a pedestal and she can't. She could never see herself the way he saw her, and that made her uncomfortable because she I think it made her feel like she had to live up to a certain expectation he had for her, and he didn't see the ugly parts of her and the cruel and mean parts that she could see in everybody and

especially in herself. And I think there's a part in mocking Jay when they get Peter back and she hears him say like that he hates her and that he wants nothing to do with her and all these things, and she thinks he's finally seeing the real me. I don't like it, like I want to go back to when he saw the best of me, because he was the only one. Not the only one, but he was the person in her life who made her feel like she could be something other than what she

saw in the mirror. And to have that taken away from her, I think was needed, but also to have it taken away that way must have been excruciatingly painful. Yeah. No, I think you're very right. I think actually I saved that page, and I think she does specifically say like he was the one person who saw who saw that it could be better. And it's one of the juxtaposed where there's a line where when she's thinking about like she can be with Gail and she's kissing him of like this is easier

because Gail. She doesn't quite say it, but theres an element of like Gail is as broken as I am. Yeah, Yeah, it's powerful. The other thing I kind of came up from me is we're talking that I haven't thought somebody won't want to hear what you think. In the books, the idea of owing people is constantly in her head, and she's always very worried about it, Like she hates the idea of accepting help because then she'll

owe somebody. She hates the idea of, you know, when Phoenix saves her life, it means when Phoenix saves PETA's life, she's so happy that he's saved, but she also is like, I'm so upset about this because now I owe finish something. And that's true for people in the hobb In back home throughout her life. Where do you think that comes from? And why is it so focused on that? She is always worried about the debts, not monetarily but like emotionally, you know, and all that that she

owes people well. She tells pet in the first book that if he was from the seam, he'd understand, but he's not. And I think that that it was a connection with Gail she had was that they never wanted to owe each other. They never wanted to owe anyone else because I don't know, I guess maybe there's a sense of pride in being able to take care of what's yours and being able to take care of yourself, and if you can't, then that's a like and someone takes care of that for you.

They take care of what's yours, They take care of your life. How do you repay that. How do you repay them for taking care of something you couldn't and you want that to be even I think because of that pride and because of the I guess the probably shame that comes with not being able to do that, and when you don't have to do that, when you don't have to worry about whether your family is going to eat or not, then you don't really know what that's like because you've never had to ask for

that help or you've never had to accept it. And I think that that's just something that Katans has had to deal with her whole life, and she adds it to every aspect of her life after that. Yeah, I love that. I don't really put in those terms. I was thinking a slightly different angle, and I think there's kind of maybe some truth to both that. Like you said, Pete doesn't get it, and one of the common themes is that Peta is at least by District twelve standards, and especially in

her perspective, a little more comfortable. I part of what I got the sense it was also that, like both her and Gail have grown up in a world where the idea, the idea that you could ever have enough to generously give to someone else is just not really conceived of easily, and so there's a sense of like that a lot of most of life has to be somewhat transactional, you know, and like, yeah, but so I think it's just one more part of the books that I love is the way that

that gets talked about with her. Yeah, and I think I think those what you and I said fit fit together, and that like someone can't give you something out of the goodness of their hearts because it's going to cost them, and so like how do you how do you pay back what it costs them? And that's a lot harder when it's not in monetary terms. Yeah, I think it's really true. So let's talk about the two suitors, because I know you have some pretty strong opinions, and I think we're mostly

in agreement, but I may defend one a little bit. Give me your case against Gail Well, not about why he wasn't gonna get choosen. I think that was always clear. But from your TikTok, I get the sense you are not a Gail Stan. I want to hear why, well, I want to I want to be clear. I am not a Gail Stan.

When it comes to the way he treats catmis. I understand absolutely why he thinks the way he does when it comes to rebellion and when it comes to war, and when it comes to his vindictiveness against the capital, because

they have done absolutely horrible things. And I speak from experience, when someone has done absolutely or an entity has done absolutely horrible things to you and yours, it is natural to feel like if I could flip a switch and end them, I think I would because maybe that would solve some of my problems. And so I get that feeling, and I think it's natural, especially in eighteen nineteen year old boy, to feel that way, and so I

don't begrudge him those feelings. I don't at all. I completely understand them. What I do begrudge him is, and I think this comes from my experience growing up as a girl, is that he was not satisfied with his relationship with Catanists as it was. And I know how that feels on the receiving. On the receiving, it like to be Catness and to have your best friend in the world, the one person you trust, suddenly change their mind and then what you're giving them isn't enough, and you don't know how

to make it enough and still be comfortable yourself and still keep them. You want to keep them the way that they are. You want to keep your relationship the way that it is, and you will are willing to do anything even if it makes you uncomfortable, even if it makes you question things, and the other person isn't willing to do that as well on their end in the reverse. And I think that is a really really like not cool way

for Gail to act towards his best friend. And I feel this most when there are certain there are certain scenes where, specifically in mocking Jay and Catching Fire, where he gets all pouty and tells Catness you only you only feel this way about me whenever I'm hurt, because you want to make it better,

and I'm like, we're in the middle of a war. Catness has been through unimaginable horrors and your biggest concern right now is whether or not she wants to kiss you for real, and that I have an issue with because it's not fair to her. And I think that that is where like pet

and Gail are unfairly matched, I will give Gail bad. They're unfairly matched because from the bat like, Peta has his moments at the end of the first book and beginning very beginning of the second where he's hurt that Catiness doesn't feel the way about him that he does about her, and he's hurt that she played along into this game that he didn't realize was a game, and he takes a while to come around, but he does, and he tells

her he takes it all on himself. He doesn't blame her. He tells her that he's sorry for the way that he acted and that she is under no obligation to feel that way about him or to continue the game, and he wants but he does want to be friends with her. And I think that went a long way for Catnis because he started on the opposite end of Gail. Yeah, but then was willing to give that up, to sacrifice

that just to be her friend. But Gail wasn't willing to sacrifice his feelings just to be her friend, which I think is I mean, to me, that's really where I define love. Is not to a codependent way, not to a way where you're violating your own boundaries, but he is to a way where you are you know, like let's say whatever the person is to you, you know, they get a job offer that's the perfect job

offer, and it's on the other side of the country. And your response can be to say, this is really great for them, and I'm happy for them. I'm sad that I won't live next to them anymore, and I will find an appropriate place to explain that, but primarily, this is what is good for them, and I love them and I want what's good for them, or it can be you know, not only am I upset that you're going to move away, but I'm going to take it personally that

you're choosing that over me, you know, that kind of thing. And I think that's really where they separate some Well. I was hoping, honestly, I was hoping would get a good debate out of this, But actually I think we totally agree, because because the main way I wanted to defend Gail is that I do think that, but you just said all of it

like that. Gail's opinions on the war do make a lot of sense from where he is, and I guess the one thing I would add is and I think this is true, like I think Peta is just fundamentally compassionate, and that to me, one of the arcs of the books is that Catnus has a lot of compassion, but she generally fights it because she believes she like she has compassion for everyone, but she has to take care of the people she has to take care of, and to be part of the point

of the books is her learning compassion. I read a great uh piece a while and I'm sorry I saw a TikTok a while ago. I need to get better like writing down the people who do these TikTok it always inflordes me.

But basically, they were kind of doing a literary analysis of love triangles, and they said that one of the points off and of a love triangle or love v as you said, is that one spoke represents the character if they stay the same, and that one spoke represents the character if they go into this new aspect of being, you know, a new part of who they could be. And I think that's very true for who Gail and Peter

represent for her. The other thing I just say, though, is a little more of a defensive Gail. I still don't think it excuses the way he talks about her like that. I totally agree with there, he like he never actually asks her, do you actually have feelings for Peta? Do you have to force all this? Like he never interrogates that with her. I mean, not interrogation, but like, you know, he never questions

that. I think though, the thing that I think is important, And I do think this is kind of a point of the book is and this lets me not blame gail Less but also understand him. In the very relative world of twelve wherein fairness, everyone is still very poor, Peter is still a lot more privileged. And that's part of the whole. Like we're not

from the he's not from the seam. And I do think part of what the books are about and I think this is like often we talk about privilege and in a very bad way, and I think that's a really important thing. But I think that Peta is given the chance to have like what Peta does of throwing the bread to the to this you know, starving girl. Part of why hits Catin is so hard is she could never imagine doing that because every scrap of bread is either needed for me or is needed for the

goat, or you know, whatever it is. And so yeah, I guess that's just to me. My other thing is like I feel like Gail is absolutely unfair to her and wrong, and I disagree with him where he gets politically. But I think that the part, part of what I think the point is is that the horrible situation that they're in the seam is part of what makes both Gail and cat and is who they are. Catnis gets the chance to get out, in part by going to the Hunger Games and

meeting Pete and all this, and Gail ever gets that chance. Yeah, yeah, that is a good point that if Peter was allowed room to have compassion build up in him, which is interesting because his mother is not compassionate at all, and and it's it's it's almost like, you know, I'm thinking of this now, just now as I'm talking. But Catness and Peta end up as polar opposites of their mother. Really, I mean they have. I mean Catness has some of her mother and her I think that comes.

I think I think she does have. Kettness has a strong ability for compassion, and we see that over and over and over again. And I do think that that comes from both her father and her mother. But where her mother isn't able to push past some of her grief and take care of her children, which is understandable. I think I think her mom gets a little bit of a bad rap, because that would what would be unimaginable pain to have to go through, and she was in depression and you can't always

control what happens during that. Catness is not like that, and she would no, I don't think she would allow herself to become like that when other people depended on her. Yeah. Now we see her like that after prim dies, but no one is there to depend on her anymore, so she has no one to fight for. And then with Peta, Oh, go ahead, I would you say? And I think part of that is also

why she's so hesitant to let anyone depend on her. Yeah, And maybe that's also part of the owing thing, is because if you owe someone something when they are depending on you to eventually like do the favor back or whatever it is. Yeah. And then with Peta his mother, who we don't get a lot of understandably because it's not through PETA's perspective, but his mother is very cold and very abrasive and judgmental, and Peta is the exact opposite.

And I think it's it's kind of kind of beautiful to see how that was able to how he was able to become so compassionate. And I will say also that one thing I've realized and my reread is that Catness's weakness is human compassion shown towards her. And I think it's because she got so little of it. She's not used to it, she's not used to letting it in. And we see that like over and over again, we stay with Peter. Peter being compassionate to her is an absolute like pierced to her armor.

Finnick being compassionate to her another pierce. Every single person who shows her compassion, she is unable to let them go. Yeah, I think it's really beautiful. Ever to put it, We can talk to so much more on this. I want to kind of talk keep on a similar topic but expanded a little bit, because again, this is something that the books going to a lot more that the and in this regard probably really couldn't show it on screen. And that's better. But I've forgotten how much in the books

the way that the victors are sexually exploited is really a big theme. I mean, it's funny because it's very much like it is. The language is never like purple in any way. I mean, it's Ya from the two thousands said, it's funny. I think it's not been that long. You'read Ya today. It's much much more explicit. Like the most explicit we get

is her having a hunger as she kisses him, and that's all. But you know, they talk about how most of the victor most of the not the victors, most of the tributes, like their costumes when they come in for the gala are often they're just naked or they're incredibly sexually provocative. And this is when they're children. Yeah, and Finnick talks about how he was given away, you know, and it's implied, but I think in the books it's made much more clear that, like the sexual favors of the victors

are traded quite openly. And yeah, I'm kind of curious your thought on how how that part of the book's played for you and kind of what what effect it has and why I was in there and whether it's good or not. Yeah, I was. I mean, I guess not surprised because a

lot goes over your head. I think when you're when you're younger and reading these but I completely got about the fact that they wanted to give Catness breast enhancements, yep, when she's sixteen, and and the fact that Sinnah had to or not Senna Hami Hamich stood outside her door and threatened to kill anyone who came near her with that, and like that that makes me emotional thinking

about actually, and I wish, like I don't wish. I'm glad they didn't put the breast enhancement thing in the movie, But I also wish we'd gotten that side of Hamich in the movie, because that is so It's so clear in the book that he truly viewed Catinus and Peter as his responsibility, and him being like knowing that he needed to be there during that time and

not just like slacking on his responsibilities like everyone always says he does. He was there, he knew that they would probably request something like that, and he said, absolutely, not over my dead body, you will. And I think it's so important to show that that people can be there for women because like you know, obviously we don't have the Hunger Games now in our own real life right now, but it's important to show that in other facets.

I think that people can stand up for other people, especially women in those instances when things like that happen. But I just thought it was just it's so incredibly devious and evil to make children fight for their lives anyway, to kill each other, and then to have it not even be over once they leave the arena, Like leaving the arena is just the beginning. You are going to be fighting for the rest of your life. And I think

it's so sad. In mocking Jay, when Catanists learns about everything that everyone has been through, all the victors, Hey, Mitch, Joanna and Finnick, she thinks, would this have been my life after? Not only would she have had to pretend that she, you know, feel feelings for Peter that she wasn't ready to admit to or that she wasn't ready to feel, but she would have also been subjected to probably sexual assault and so many horrible

things. Her mother and sister may have been killed in the process after she tried so hard to save them, and everyone she loved may have eventually died anyway, And that's just it's it's so so cruel, yeah, on the Capital's part to do that, And I think it's such a powerful point that Colin's making here because I know that she and she spoken openly about this, that part of what she was trying to get out with these books is the

culture of like you know, of like glorification of violence and the way violence has shown and you know, the way people tear each other down from the amusement of other people. And I don't know if she talked about this specifically, but I think one of the points that it really makes in the books

is how there is in our culture. I mean very careful in my language here, because I don't want to say that this is always bad, but that there isn't our culture a lot of linkages between violence and sexuality in ways that are not focused on consent and are not focused on like people choosing to enjoy those in consensual ways, but much more about the sexualization of violence and the you know, making and vice versa and all this kind of thing, and like, you know, to me, like one of the things I

thought about that when they're like, oh, yeah, we need to give her breast and prants implants now that she's this victor, was how it's gotten a lot better, I know, And now the women often have a lot

more control of it. But you know, women wrestlers were incredibly sexualized, or you know, if you think about like the Lingerie football League or things like this, like there's just all this pressure on, oh hey, you're a or even just like you know, the fights over what volleyball teams get to wear with the Olympics, and I think to wear leggings or there's tiny

little shorts or whatever. Like there's such an attitude of in order to be you know, athletic and powerful or violent or just you know, strong, you also have to be sexualized. And the books just because again it's so it's so blinking you miss it because it is very tame, and they kind of make a big deal about catness being really approved in some fun way that in the ways that you know, like she has to look away when and Finni talks about how fun it is to try to get an under skame.

But I think part of what she is getting at is that she's reacting to the incredible sexualization of everything around the Hunger Games in a way that yeah, I mean, you can't show teenager like there's no reason to show it, because then I think that is just adding to the sexualization of it. Yeah, but to read about it, I think it's really powerful. Well.

I think it's also like, I think it's interesting that they were all for catn As being this innocent little girl when she showed up to the Hunger Games, but then as soon as she's the victor, she has to she has to play a different part and in order to stay interesting. And I see

that a lot with young actors especially. I'm thinking, you know, like Millie Bobby Brown and Sadie Sink that, you know, they start acting when they're young, when they're children, and society humors them, but then how long does it take before you see nasty, gross people in the comments of Instagrams and uh, you know, other social media as soon as they turn

eighteen? Ye, And it's just it's just it's disgusting, and it's like they're allowed to be innocent in the beginning, but then once they reach a certain point, they're no longer allowed to be innocent. And and I think that's so that's so devastating because you're not only you're already having something taken from you, and yet you can't keep even this one thing that is supposed to be yours and supposed to be your choice. It's it's being taken from you

as well. Yeah, and and to me, I think one, I think it's a great example how it happens in our own world. And to me, one of the most damning parts he is not only does the Capital do it, but District thirteen winds up trying to do it to her. And granted it's because it is stylists from the Capitol, but they make her look very sexy. They want her to look like the mocking j Is this like sexually appealing, like I want to, you know, follow her,

I want to date her, I want to be her. And and it's you know, it takes you know, Hamich to kind of lead the session where they realize, like, no, wipe all that makeup off of her, you know, let her look like she's always looked, because even in District thirteen, they're kind of still doing that. Yeah, and Haymie, I feel, like you said, Haymich is still there to protect her. Yeah. It really is one of these. Correctly, I want to say

about Hamich that that I think you're right. A lot of it doesn't come through in the book, in the in the movies, A detail that just made me sob And it's at the very end of the third book, we're talking about how her and Haymidche and Catnis, Hamidch, Peter and Catness and even like their families a bit put together this book of like memories of all the people they've lost, and in it they say the Hamich tells stories about all of the tributes who came before. Yeah, and it just it's true

that he is so cold to them. I'm sorry, I'm yeah, but because I think what it says is that he has had he has had to, you know, really care about kids for twenty years and every time watch them die. Of course you're gonna have to start wauling yourself off from that. Of course you're gonna have to start protecting yourself from that, you know.

And I think it just like like Peter, as horrible as Hamich is at times, in that moment, I was like, yeah, I completely understand now who you are and why you are and how much of a journey you went on. Yeah. So it's it was twenty four years before Catnis and Peter came that Hamich had to be a mentor. Because we don't know how long the mentor before him, Lucy gray Baird lived until and that's what fifty plus kids that he had to watch. He had to accompany to the

capitol and then go back home by himself. Yeah, and without them, And like what does that do? Like, no wonder he ended up the way he did. It's a wonder he's survived. It's a wonder he didn't do something drastic. And like it's just I can't I can't imagine having to live with that. It's just so powerfully done well. And because we talked about District thirteen, I want to use that to talk about the last big thing I want to talk about, and then give you a chance with any

of the last things you want to add. So in the start of the third book, Catness is so angry that all these people had a plot to get her out but to not get pet and that they had been lying to her all along, including Hamish. Was District was the conspiracy right to do it the way they did? Though? Because it does, she is an essential part of overthrowing this horrible totalitarian government. They almost replace it with another, but they she's able to stop that. Were they right or were they

justified? Maybe? Is the better question. It's it's tough because I understand why they didn't tell her or Peta, because their focus is on the mani cataneis and PETA's focus would always be in that moment because of what they've experienced themselves, like each other, and because they're the only two people I think in the in their worlds that they completely and utterly trust. There is no one else I think, after after they survived the first Hunger Games, there's

no one else that they completely and utterly trust except for each other. And and so I understand why they didn't tell them. Where I think they were not justified is the goal to do it, and it just expect that Catness is going to go through with it, and just just expect that she's not going to have any questions, that she's not going to be upset. And

it just shows how much they truly didn't understand her. No, I really think that the only two people in Katness's life who understood her or Haymage and Peta. I think Gail knows her, but he doesn't truly understand her and doesn't understand what makes her tick, what makes what is most important to her. Catness doesn't care about a revolution. She ultimately does, but it takes

her some time to get there. What's most important to her is always what's right in front of her, because that's that's what's important to a survivor. When you have to survive every day, you're not thinking about ten years in the future. You're thinking about what am I going to do tonight? How am I going to survive to tomorrow? And so it takes her some time to get there, and I think she she does. She does care about

what is happening to people. She does, but I can't imagine at sixteen seventeen being forced into that that like being forced to be a hero when she does not want to be a hero, and she she doesn't want she does wants to be, and I think that's what's the most fascinating about her. Yeah, it's right. I've never thought about this until now, but you're so right. One thing we talk on this show a lot is about heroes

people are claiming to be or given that mantle. And I think one thing you often expect about a hero is if you know there's a burning building, and in one room there's the person you love, and in another room there's twenty anonymous people like you're gonna try and save the twenty people, And I think there's some justification of like all the things being equal, that that that's the heroic thing to do, but it's also like not everyone wants to sign

up for that or can sign up for that, And I kind of love that these books are actually all about flipping that on its head, because she's very much not the hero in that good regard. She's heroic, I think, and it is a hero different ways, because yeah, it's a question I've wrestled with a lot, especially because one of the things that kind of struck me. And I don't think they're the same at all. I don't think these are on the same level at all. And he might tell me

that I'm totally wrong, and I'm probably how you hear it. But I think there's some connection between them lying to her about what their real goal in the arena is and her lying to Peta about what her real goal in the arena is. And I think that there is, because it is there is still some level of like, but the difference is she's trying to do it for PETA's own good. They're trying to do it because she thinks they will serve the nation's better good, you know, and I think that it's a

hard to mealance, you know, and good. Well, I think Katnets justifies lying to Peta in that like this is literally how they're going to survive to the next day. Like this is literally how they're surviving. And this

is what she gets. She gets survival from day to day and how you're going to get there, how they're going to make it to the next day is if she plays along with their perception of a romance between her and Peta with with God be here, I mean specific not that lie, I mean specifically when she is she has decided that she's going to die in the arena. Oh oh yeah, yeah, okay, okay, I do I do see I do? So what you mean there? Do you know? Do

you know? I think I think both her and Peta knew that the other one knew what they were going to do, and but they both but Catness was naive enough to think that Haymich wouldn't try to double play her, and Peta expected that Haymich would try to double play him. And uh, and so that's why he says, you know, I think Hamich probably made us both promises, and like, I'm not going to let him back out of this one, or I'm not I'm not going to allow the promise he made

to you supersede the promise he made to me. And and so I think that was a little different. I think that was a little different because is I don't know if Catanis would have lied Sepeda if she thought there was no way he would know what she was planning. I think that's definitely fair.

And yeah, I mean everything about them. In some ways, it feels like it is a slow motion version of the scene between Clint and Natasha in Avengers Endgame when they're both kind of fighting to be Hugh's going to be the one who's going to jump over and die and to take one of the comparison like that, I'm wondering if you also had this feeling reading it through now as I was reading and again thinking about like the Republic and the not the

Republic, but like the rebellion and like what is it doing and is it right or is it wrong? I was really thinking, like to me, Plutarch and Gael and Luthan from and or we're kind of they all kind of remind me of the same, you know, of the like they're doing things that I find morally reprehensible. They're also winning and they're overthrowing tyranny, and

I want to sit in judgment of them. I also know that, like there is a greater good to what they're doing and is just if I think I think both properties are great because it's not cut and dry like Prim dies and that's horrible and terrible and the capital falls, you know, and like I think that last bombing so it can't be justified anyway, but just it just did means with both of them, I just really leaves me wondering, Like I can't say for sure. Well, what I think is interesting is

that Gail doesn't know that the last bombings are planned. Yeah, he was part of the team that came up with the that type of strategy, but I don't I truly, truly don't think he knew based on his conversation he has with catanists at the very end, that that was part of the plan, yeah or then, And he definitely didn't know Prim was going to be there, even if he did know the rest of it, which doesn't make it any better if he didn't know it, but didn't know prim was going

to be there. But I truly don't think he knew about any of that. I don't know if Plutarch knew. I don't know if that was just a president coin thing. And I would say he probably had a good idea, but maybe it was just enough in the dark for like plausible deniability. But I think it's interesting, like when you hear snow and Snow it's such a manipulator that you can't really believe much of what comes out of his mouth.

But he didn't lie to catanists in that instance. When he says he was ready to surrender, there was and when you look back at it, there was no There was nothing else he could have done. The rebel forces were winning and so but what they needed was for the public to hate Snow as much as the rebellion did. And the way to do that was to

make it look like he killed a bunch of children. And I think the that is reprehensible, and I think that that once Katness sees that is when she's like, you are absolutely no better than the capital that we were trying to get rid of, and I will not allow you to take everything I've been through for you, everything, I lost, my sister, her friends,

everything, and just turn this into Capital two point zero. And I think that was the most powerful thing is that that's when Catnas steps up and becomes the hero, the like anti hero or whatever you want to call it. That's when she becomes the person that needs to do that does what needs to be done but no one else will do it. And I think that's a beautiful moment for me when she shoots coin instead of snow, because that's her saying, this is me, this is the mocking Jay you asked for.

I will do what no one else is going to do and I don't care what the consequences are. And that is just Catness's character all summed up in that scene. It's really beautiful, it really is. And I think reading that last book, I think one of the things that really comes through it's hard to see is that you know it's her compassion expanding because part of

which happens is she learns compassion from people in the Capitol. You know, she'd already had it somewhat with Darius the Peacekeeper, and then you know when he becomes an a box. But then like you know, the like she I think she always feels kind of weird about Plutarch, but like Cressida and

the camera people, she really starts to feel about them. The scene with Tigress, this person who was like who was a part of the games and it was, you know, part of this machinery of death, but then got easily tossed aside because she made a fashion choice that then went out of favor, Like, yeah, to me, it's all part of that that when Snow wants to then say, okay, so now we're going to do this to the Capitol's children, You're right, that's I think it's it's the

bombing and then it's that because those are the two poements where she's like, what Snow wants to do is to allow it to teach all of the districts to not to not see the capital of fellow human beings, but to see them as the enemy. Yeah, or what Coin? What Coin wanted? Yeah? Yeah, Yeah. It's it's intense. And I love that about Catness because I love that she is able to see and it's understandable how people aren't able to see this, Like I understand why why Gail has no love

for anybody from the capital, I get it. Yeah, but Catness has experienced their compassion, and like I say, that is her weakness, is human compassion shown to her, and once she feels it, once she sees it, she's not able to ignore it, and she then has to justify it in her head. How are they able to treat me with such kindness

and yet celebrate the hunger games as if they're not what they are? And she realizes, she comes to realize, well, when you grow up in this, when you are on the other side and it is just a game and you don't have to see the consequences of it, you don't have to truly experience the consequences and the horribleness of it, then yeah, you would probably become desensthetized to it, and you would think it's normal if that is your everyday normal. And so she doesn't excuse them, but she begins to

understand them on a very human level. And not everyone is able to do that, and that's understandable. But the fact that Catness is I think is just part of what makes her such a great and heartbreaking character. Yeah, and I think it's her true and I think it's it's one more of the great points that Collins is making about this particular world, but also a world and general that you know, so much of the evil that humans can do

to each other. It starts with dehumanizing. You know, they're not like us. They are different because they're gay, or they're trans, or they're across that border, they worship a different god, or they're different skin color, and like, you know, you look in, you look in, you know, and think from like journals of slave owners up to like you know, racists on Twitter today. Like is not to excuse it in anyway, but it's clear that there's like just a lack of understanding of the humanity

of someone else. And that a lot of the ways that you know, part of why representation, I think matters so much is it helps to human It gives people a chance to see, Hey, this group that you always think of in these like idiot terms that your uncle uses at Thanksgiving, here's actually what that person actually is, you know. And that the way in which her stylists, in particular, because as Hamas recognizes, Peter humanizes her by being in love with her, and now everyone in the capital sees her

not just as one more tribute. It's not really a person. We don't have to worry about them, but someone who someone can love. Now everyone falls for her as well, and they can't stomach because now she's a human being to them. Yeah, And I think there's also something to be said about the way they sensationalize the Hunger Games in that it becomes something where the tributes are celebrated and they're pampered in the week before they go off to kill

each other. And I can imagine the Capital citizens and I think they do viewing the tributes, says, oh, this is such a wonderful opportunity for them, Like, oh, they get to you know, they live in such you know, squalor and horribleness their entire lives, but then they get to come to the Capital and experience all this great stuff for a week.

And if they die, at least they got to experience this. And then if they win, they get to live the rest of their lives in a nice, fancy house in their district, and they get enough money that they could ever need, and they get to go to the Capital every year and experience that wealth again. And so I could see I could see how like it is a very manipulative tap tactic to get your own the capital citizens to think that this is actually a good thing for those tributes, which is why

two things. I'll say that One, as you say all that, one of the first things that I heard was, oh, no slaves benefited, they learn skills. Yeah, you know, which is the thing that they're trying to teach in Florida the exact same reasoning. But also it makes me really excited to at a later point talk to you about Of Songs and of Snakes and Songbirds, because that book, for those who don't know it's it's

a prequel. It's set during the tenth Hunger Games, a long time ago, with an early and Snow's career, and you really get a sense of the Hunger Games aren't the spectacle that they grew up to be, you know, and you see a lot of how the Hunger Games became them. And yeah, well this has been awesome, Danielle. We're gonna have a patron section where we talk about something different, but it's one of the last things you want to say about what we've been talking about and Hunger Games books,

and I mean, I'm definitely recommend people check out your TikTok. You have so many other great thoughts, but any other kind of questions you want to raise or points you want to make, well. I have a theory I came up with in my last three read where Buttercup Prim's cat is actually is actually a metaphor for Catness's character growth throughout the series because, and I will give this very quickly, she appears in the first chapter of each book.

Buttercup is the only person besides Catness who shows up in the first chapter or person. She's not a person, She's a cat only other character besides Catness that shows up in the first chapter of each book, And the way that Buttercup changes in how she acts around Catness is symbolic of the way Catness is

changing the way she interacts with the people around her. And I highly encourage anyone who is thinking of rereading the books to pay attention to that, because I was blown away, and I made a video about it, and I genuinely would love to talk with Suzanne Collins about that and ask if she intended that, because it feels like it I never thought of it. Tells saw

your video. And then I went back and re read some of those early chapters and one of things I realize is something else they share, Like Buttercup is just a miserable hissing in everybody, mean to everybody except Plant, who he loves and takes care of. Catanist shuts everybody out and justifiably is mean to her mother and the only person she shows softness towards is Prim. And then in book two they both kind of come back to try and find Prim,

and then in book three they eventually bond over both missing Prima. Yeah, no, you're right, I think there really is a way. They're just so brilliantly written, and I'm really like, I want to do like a full English class on these so much we could talk about so well. Danielle, thank you so much for being a part of this offer. People who do want to find out more about these tiktoks you keep talking about and other creations you do, where can they find you. I'm on TikTok at

written in the Star Wars. I'm also on Twitter at Danny s three ninety four and Instagram at written in the sw Yeah, all those things definitely worth a follow, especially TikTok. I've learned so much about Star Wars and other things like that. And right now you're doing a lot of book content, which I really appreciate other creators who are doing what I'm doing or trying to avoid the struck content. And I really love what you've been doing there.

I found a lot of good books that I want to read. So yeah, definitely check out all this stuff to any of those and of course I'll let us know what you think. What do you check out all the stuff The Ethical Panda is doing. You can find this podcast on my other podcast, Star Wars Universe podcast. We are finding lots of things to talk about that aren't the movies and TV shows. We've talked about books, we have an episode about lightsabers, We're doing an episode about costplay. There's a lot

of great content to talk about there. But of course, and you can find all that on the website The Ethical Panda dot com. But most importantly on the website, you can find all the ways to contact us Facebook, email, Twitter, TikTok, whatever you want to do. If you can send a carrier pigeon, well no, not giving you my address, you don't do that, but also not good animals. But yeah, whatever you

want to do, send us your feedback. We had a backlog. We're slowly working through it now, but you know, send us your comments, love to read them on air or just you know, internalize them and talk to you about it directly over email. Love talking to you as fans. So we're gonna go into the Patreon in a second. We have changed things a bit, so you're gonna hear the end of music and then we'll be the Patreon. We're gonna talk about glubshit uh And for everyone else though,

thank you so much for being a part of this. We have spoken