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You Now, this is podcasting. Hey, there are true believers. Andy Nelson here from the Marvel Movie Minute Podcast with the rest of the team mate right, Kyle Wilson, Rob Cobosco, and Matthew Fox. This is the podcast where we dissect the Marvel cinematic universe, one minute at a time, exploring every detail of this epic superhero franchise.
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Hello to Welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today we are talking about hope, Hope that Superman can embody, Hope that this will be an interesting podcast discussion based on only two minutes of trailer. Hope that this will be a Superman that might actually make Jessica Plumber say this is something like the character that she fell in love with in comic books and that all the rest of us should have been waiting for, despite my love
of Christopher Reeves. So, yes, we're talking about the newest Superman trailer. We're gonna spend a lot of time talking about heroes with bad haircuts, but we're mostly gonna be talking about the character of Superman and what does this new image of Superman that James gunn is possibly can be giving us, How does it relate to the character from comics, how does it relate to other versions, and
most importantly, why is this one we care about. It's myself, Matthew, my normal co host, Rieky, and of course Jessica Plummer, returning guest and comic book fan extraordinary Jessica, how have we been doing.
I've been good. How you been doing pretty well?
Pretty well?
Been exciting a couple of weeks where we took a hiatus for a couple of weeks over the holidays.
Glad to be back recording and glad to have you on. Riki. Let me first start with you. What do you know about Superman or what's been your relationship with this character just in general?
Yeah, I mean I've been a fan for a long time comic books, movies, TV shows, and I think last time the three of us got together, my kind of thesis was that Superman is a good TV show character because allows Clark Kent to really be the focus of the story, Whereas a Superman movie, with so much focus on action, you have to center it around Superman, who some people have derided as a boring superhero, right, Like, you can't make Superman interesting because he's invincible, so you
had to come up with some conceit for why he's deep powered or why the opponent is more powerful than him at the moment, So I'm curious to see what this movie does.
With Superman in that regard.
Yeah, yeah, I wanst say. That was one that really had me convinced because I think you're right. Part of I love the Christopher Reeve movies. As a kid, those were my Superman as I discussed my father sued Superman, which was fun to say on the playground when I was five or six, But you know, as I grew up, I definitely was a kid it was like, oh no,
Batman's so much cooler. And I think part of it is you're right, and I haven't really thought of it until we had that conversation that in a traditional superhero action movie, the main question extreen as always can our hero defeat the villain in single combat and you know, his legions and his big monster whatever it is, And it was Superman. If that's a character who are kind of the point is that that's not actually a real question. Then there's a whole other set of stuff that we
don't normally get to explore. And so Jessico take take away from there, kind of talk a little about how that idea we're talking about, but also other ideas for you, what what's the essence of Superman that mean? And we haven't seen on the screen very often.
Yeah, I mean I would definitely, like one hundred percent agree with Riep. I think Superman does better on TV, both because they have a lower budget so they have to use Clark more because it's easier and cheaper, and because the character is so designed for ongoing storytelling, like
that's comics are sequential storytelling. So one hundred percent, Like I have said, I've said on this podcast that my preferred genre for Superman is is a workplace rom com, which is what most of the TV shows have been, And you don't really see that with a movie, and so I do think that, Look, we don't know until we see the movie, but I am choosing, you know, the episode is about hope. This episode is about hope.
I am choosing to hope that the fact that we have seen like the whole Daily Planet staff except Perry, I think in the trailer means we're going to get like lots of Daily Planet scenes. We're going to get that emphasis on that part of Clark's life, because I think that's what's one of the major things that's been missing in Superman movies. Up to this point, we haven't seen a lot of Clark, and like you were saying, framing a movie around, can Superman beat this guy up? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
of course he can. He's Superman, and so yeah, I'd love to see more Clark. And I'd love to see.
Like, how do you have Laurence fish for as Perry White and then just not use him at all?
Yes, exactly, those networks of relationships, Like if Superman is this, you know, friendly, warm, approachable character, he should have relationships. He should have relationships with his family, with his coworkers, with his wife obviously not his wife yet in the movie with the people of Metropolis, with his dog and other superheroes, and it seems like we're going to be getting that in some form in this movie, right.
Yeah.
The inclusion of the dog, I know it was something that that's tripped up a lot. The inclusion of the dog. I know it was something that's kicked off a lot of conversation online and I kind of don't get how anyone would not be in favor of it. I think the movie that came out not that long ago with Kevin Hart, and I think the Rock may have soured some folks, is that was not the movie is about Crypto and Batman's dog the.
Name, Yeah, the super Pets movie.
Super Pets, which was not the best. Necessarily people loved
your thought and that's great. But yeah, to me, it just that one scene especially really seemed to feel like this is going to be a more lighthearted not that I'm sure there's maybe some seriousness involved, but that is going to be a little bit more of the rom com, a little more of the comedy of you know, a person attempting to live this double life of being Clark while being Superman, instead of it being about like, wam bam, look at the great majesty of the Kryptonians as they
fight for the soul of Earth or whatever it is.
Yeah, I will my my one tiny criticism. It's not even a criticism. I just like, this is what's going to happen in twenty twenty five. Everything's going to be CGI. But imagine if they had gotten like a dog actor and they got to go on like their press tour and the dog is like sitting in his own little chair and like we've lost something.
I had not had that CGI.
I I mean, I don't mean this critically. He looks cg to me like the way of furs, but maybe there's a real dog on.
My understanding is that animal actors are not always treated the best, and so there is some there's some reason of like moving the CGI as a way to be better to the actors. But also, yeah, that would like I would hope there is some dog at some point that is doing some some of that, some of that and also being very well treated though.
Yes, and getting and getting treats for doing stuff.
Yeah, because could Yeah, so we'll say about that, but yeah, talk about what else from the trailer kind of gives gives you some thought of what direction we might be going into this and why it might be a good one.
I mean, the thing that really got me because I I am on the record as being self protective about this movie. I love Superman very very much. I as as you mocked me for have been kind of a downer about most Superman movies. I do think Christopher Reeve did a good job. It's just that's a pre crisis Superman, and I'm a post crisis gal. I really I had a lot of hope with the First Man of Steel trailer and then the movie turned out to not really be what I was looking for, and so I told myself,
don't get excited just because the trailer looks good. You could be disappointed again, Like, don't get your hopes up. And then there was that one two punch in the trailer of like Crypto showing up, and then it cuts to Superman saving a little girl, and I was like, all right, James Gunn, you've got me, Like, that's all I want. I want him to love his dog and take care of those weaker than him. That's it.
Maybe we can clarify for listeners real quick what you mean by pre and post crisis, because I'm familiar with comics. There are multiple crisises in DC, So what specifically are you telling us with that phrase.
So in nineteen eighty five, DC decide to drastically revamp major aspects of their universe, and one of the things that got a really significant makeover was Superman. It's they did this by telling a story called Crisis on Infinite Earths, and so everything before that is considered pre crisis, and
everything after that is the post crisis universe. And as you've said, there have since been further reboots, and so we got the New fifty two universe and we got the Rebirth universe, and like they it's that line from Pacific rim of like these happen more and more frequently, and soon we'll be seeing one every thirty seconds or whatever. But the changes to Superman have by and large really stuck,
even despite those other reboots. And the major shift was before nineteen eighty five, Clark or Superman or kal El was the real person, like he landed on Earth with full memory of Krypton. He identify as Kryptonian everything about it, Like he Clark Kent was a disguise, that was a mask that he put on to move among humans from nineteen eighty five on. He did not develop his powers until puberty, so he was raised as a human by humans.
He identifies as Clark Kent. And it's not that Superman is a disguise so much is that it's the outfit he wears so that he can do his job. But he's much more obviously he's biologically the same amount of Kryptonian as he's ever been, but he's much more human personality wise, and that there are all sorts of other like little details of Superman's life that are either pre crisis or post crisis, but that's the major change, Like are we looking at somebody who thinks of himself as
Superman or Clark Kent, Kryptonian or human? And it does seem like the movie is kind of juggling that question, which will be interesting and I have my opinion. We'll see where the movie lands.
Yeah.
I really like that phrasing, especially because one thing that if you heard Jessica on the podcast before we've talked about a lot, is that that idea stands very much in contrast to, for example, Batman, who I think and this is a theory I got from the folks at DC on Screen podcast, but I really think it holds up that in the best tellings of that, Bruce Wayne is a character he invents so that people don't lock
him away. He is Batman like that is what his psychological profile is, and that that I think some of the best episodes of the Justice League cartoon or the Justice the Animated show, I should maybe say that are
really about conflicts between Batman and Clark Kent. And I say those names very intentionally because it's they kind of clash because Batman doesn't understand that Clark mostly wants to be Clark and then put on the Cape to save people, and Clark doesn't understand that Batman doesn't want to actually mostly be Bruce Wayne, and vice versa.
Yeah, there's a lot from the Lois and Clark TV show from the nineties where Clark says, and this to me, this is like what he says, Clark Kent is who I am. Superman is what I can do. And for me that has always been like the high water mark for understanding the division of the character, at least as
I interpret him. But now that you said that about Batman, I think it's very funny to flip that on its head and say, like Batman is who I am, Bruce Wayne is what I can do, which is actually pretty fair because Bruce Wayne is the one with the money.
Yeah, and then the critique is often raised now of like the best way to stop crime is not to punch poor people who are turning to crime, but to give those poor people better alternatives so they don't have to go work for the Riddler.
But that's a whole love it story.
Well, and to talk about that, I think I had a similar reaction to what you were talking about about the moment where that he saves the little girl, And what really struck me was you were showing his power not in his ability to punch, not in his ability to fight, but in his ability to protect and Riki.
For me, it really struck to a line in Star Wars.
And you and I have talked about a lot that we don't We don't fight to destroy the things we hate, we fight to protect the things we love. For either of you talk about kind of what that scene means in the trailer and kind of what we think it's saying about whose Superman is?
All right?
I think that scene is everything, and it's it's a struck a similar chord as maybe the first episode of Superman and Lois the TV show on the WB that just wrapped up where they they put him in the classic like holding the car pose from Action Comics one, and then like he has a conversation with a kid. I think the kid like compliments as soon as like thanks, my mom made it, and it's like yes, like that's
that's the Superman I love. And this Yeah, the scene you mentioned does give similar vibes that he's using his immense strength to protect the our most vulnerable and like that, that to me is like what's Superman should represent? And it you know, you said we're not going to bash the Snyder movies, but I believe it stands and start. Contrast to the way Superman acts in those movies often like callously destroying buildings and ultimately harming people in his
battle is odd. And it took until Batman v. Superman where it's actually Bruce Wayne who's the one that's like taking care of the people on the ground, which is just like such a such a wild contrast to me.
Well, he does until he decides to just hit him all with his tank, right, you.
Know, practicality and yet and just to be clear there, I think I think I'm definitely on record as not being a fan of Zack snyder interpretation of a lot of these characters, especially Superman. I think right now the Internet is full of a lot of people being like yay Zack Snyder, the hell with this or yay James Gunn, which means the hell with Zack Snyder. My view is, look, a lot of people love Zack Snyder's interpretation and it
wasn't my favorite. I'm guessing it wasn't your favorite of either of you two, And I don't think it has to be all about like which one's better, but I think we can talk about that was one particular direction for the character, and as Rikier said, this is a pretty stark contrast, and.
Yeah, I think I mean, I'll say it.
I'll say that this is better and that it aligns more with my belief of what Superman should be. Yeah, and like that can differ from other people's belief but in terms of my perspective, I'm just gonna say it's better, Like I don't care.
That's fair. That's really fair. Yeah, really one that I'm a lot more excited for.
But what I am concerned? Sorry, go ahead, Jessica, Oh no, I.
Was just gonna say, going back to the scene of him saving the little girl, I think comparing it to that moment in Superman and Lois is such a perfect comparison because right after he saves the little girl, we also have that moment of the little boy who's like putting up the flag with the Superman logo on it, and that also, like the I've seen a few I wish I had the links will never be able to
find them. But I've seen a few posts like with people talking about Superman recently, especially in the wake of the trailer, how Superman is a power fantasy, but he's not a power fantasy of being able to do whatever you want, or to hurt people or beat anybody up. He's a power fantasy of being able to affect positive change, of being able to protect people who need it, which I think a lot of people right now, for various reasons that we don't need to get into, may be
feeling that very much. And to me, Superman has always also been a point of inspiration, like the fact that he is this He's not a Clark Kent to me, is not a nerd like Peter Parker who gets bullied. He's just anonymous. He's forgettable. He blends into the crowd, like that scene of him navigating the busy streets in Metropolis, and like people not knowing he's un he goes unnoticed. To me, the metaphor of Superman has always been that we all look like ordinary, mild mattered people, and we
all have this capacity for great good. And so to see him save a child and then inspire a child back to back point, it's so like I'm getting chills now.
So good, and that that reminds me of a similar scene at the end of The Amazing Spider Man Too, the Andrew Garfield one, where Spider Man is like taking a break, but then a kid wearing a Spider Man mask like stands in front of the rhino, right, and then he showed Spider Man shows up and he's like thanks kid, like I got it from here. But yeah, like inspiring courage, inspiring hope, yeah, right. I think is an important role for heroes.
Like this, And I'll say that that stands in mark contrast the person who is normally the one I'm always saying is better than Superman, but in this case, I think isn't. Because if you think about In the Dark Night, which I think is probably the pre eminent Batman movie except maybe for Robert Pattinson Batman, which is something I never thought i'd be saying. But in that when people try to be like, we're inspired by Batman, you want to do the same thing, He's like, no, go away,
I don't want you here. And partially that's because you can't do what Batman does. Because Batman can do what he does because he has all of that money, and I think you're right that there's an extent to which, yes, I if I jump in front of someone who's getting maybe hit by a car, I'm not going to come out of that quite as well as a little as as Superman might. But I still can try. I can still And there's eight million other ways in which I can.
You know, when someone who is not like me is getting bullied at school or at my work, or is not getting listened to, I can say, hey, maybe you know that person we keep shutting down, like let they had a great idea.
Let's listen to that, like to me. I think that's one of the.
I love these stories as metaphors because yeah, it shouldn't be about oh Superman can punch on in a way I never could, but it can be about yeah, Superman can use his ability to protect people. Well, what are my abilities? What are the privileges I have? What are the resources I have? How can I use those to protect people who are being attacked?
And that's why he's a reporter, Like, yeah, that job is not an accident.
And then go ahead, well I was just gonna say, like, in real life, you know, we don't have Superman, but I live in Los Angeles and we're dealing with horrible wildfires right now, and the brave people of the fire departments around the city are going out and you know, staring death in the face and doing amazing things. I can't do that. I'm not trained for that, I shouldn't
do that. But from the fringes, I am like thinking of, like what can I do to help people, you know, not maybe directly, but indirectly, right you know, with volunteering my time or donating money, like those things are important. And so the people who have the great ability, like you know, going back to Spider Man, like the ability to inspire I think, yeah, other people to do what you can within your own meanings is absolutely tant amount.
And I mean because you're going on that, like you're right, like you know, unless you have that good training, you shouldn't be finding a fire.
I know that, you know.
With all these people evacuating, because I'm in a lot of disability lists, I'm seeing a lot of great stuff about like you know, regular citizens, you know, going out to help their disabled neighbor evacuate who might not be able to or just you know, just give me a lot of people living in FEMA camps for a while after this, or otherwise needing help, you know, and like packing a bag of groceries to send to someone you know or whatever it is.
Yeah, So that that kind of thing I really love.
And and going to what you were just saying there, Jessica. On the one hand, I we're leaving an incredibly politicized world right now, as we've been seeing if you look online, even just the fire itself is getting very politicized. But whose fault it is and all this kind of stuff, And I think people know right where we take good.
And you know, this podcast goes on the other times. I'm gonna bring that up.
But there are ways in which I'm really curious how this movie is going to stand in that regard, because even something as simple as being part of the press is so politicized right now, you know, in terms of people's opinions about the media, and you know, Clark Kent and Superman, your peace, justice and the American way has always been very wrapped up in Americana in a way I think even more so than Captain America, who's literally Captain America.
Go ahead.
Well, actually, I was doing a bit of research on this recently. Originally, the American Way was not part of that tagline. So that line truth justice in the American Way comes from the Superman radio show, which started in forty or forty one or thereabouts.
When we were in a war. Well, no, actually we were not.
Go ahead, it depends on exactly. Yeah, No, was in December forty one, so we were not quite at war yet, and so it was truth and justice. There was also a bit in that opening. It was like the same opener, the equivalent to a theme song for every episode, and that was also where we got like faster than a
speeding bullet, all that stuff. One of the things that was in there that we don't hear a lot anymore was Champion of the Oppressed, but was what was not originally in there was in the American Way that got added after we joined the war, and it eventually because that show ran into the fifties, eventually they took it back out and in the nineteen forty eight serials, so those were like short serialized episodes of that. You would go to the movies and before the movie they'd play
like an episode of Superman. Basically in the serials, paw Kent actually tells Clark that he has to stand up for I believe it's truth and tolerance, like and there's no American way like that. We do think of that phrase with Superman, and I'm certainly not going to say that he's not very associated with Americana, because obviously he is. And there was a whole controversy about a decade ago when he like renounced his American citizenship and people freaked
out or whatever. But that phrase has been used at very specific points in history for political reasons.
Oh, I'm sure.
I mean when you started saying it was added, my first thought was that was gonna be added during the Comics Code nineteen fifties days we were trying very hard to make comics patriotics.
So no, you you'd think I mean that that would be a good guess.
Well, that's just my point is that I think, like and already you know, I think there's a lot of people making the point that I would definitely agree with of like Superman's an illegal immigrant is a way of thinking of him and other people, you know, claiming on the Elon Musk's side and other people claiming that like
Trump that and other people claiming that Superman is as apotomy. Yeah, one more time, and other people claiming that Superman is the epitome of conservative values, I claim that I do
not think holds water, but it's certainly out there. And my point being that I can tell that the conversation about this is going to be incredibly politicized, and I'm curious to see to what extent Gun either is seen as making a point, or is making a point one or the other, or tries to make the movie very very much not making a point, which could be kind
of a failing of just not saying anything. So you know, you're something I'm gonna curious about, because as you said, it seems like, you know, there's always if everything is political,
everything is making a point. But Superman especially has always been a statement of some kind, whether it's from two Jewish men in the thirties wanting to create someone who stands up to evil landlords and union crushing bosses, to in the forties of wanting to have an epitome of America in a time of war, to the sixties and seventies and all the way.
Up to today.
Because I certainly think that that idea of like and we can talk forever about like you know, what American ideals versus American actuality or whatever. But like I surely grew up at a time of learning, like you know, what America is about is about standing up for the little guy, you know, and like protecting those who need protecting from the menace of communism.
Because it was the eighties, but like that, it was those ideals.
And so I think for a long time I rejected Superman because it felt like, oh, American propaganda stuff. And now to time when it's a lot more discussion about like reclaiming that sort of thing. Yeah, it's just also the reasons. I'm interest to see where they go with it.
Yeah, And I also think with a character like Superman, like Superman is bigger than any individual Superman story. And there was something, I want to say, it was at the end of last year. There's something going around where people could vote on whether they thought certain fictional characters were Republicans or Democrats, and oh, yeah, I remember that. I don't think Superman was actually on there, but Captain America was, and it was right down the middle because
Captain America in the comics is very left leaning. If you read the comics he's very left leaning, like read the stuff that was coming out around Watergate. But if you were thinking about Captain America as a symbol, as an icon, as a guy in a costume you can take photos with in Times Square, he's a litmus test for what you personally believe America should be. And Superman
functions very very similarly. So yes, in the actual text of the comics, and of course we're talking about eighty seven years of comics now, so there is a range of how he behaves. But in the text of the comics, he is an illegal immigrant and a journalist, and those have implications for what he would believe. But as an as a larger than life icon, he is going to be whatever you personally think is good, right.
And I think a lot of where Superman will be positioned as a political symbol in these movies is going to depend on Lex Luthor because especially like Superman's immigrant status is most highlighted by Lex Luthor, like when he's making a presidential run or something like that, when he's when he's trying to gather more political power, he highlights that Superman is not one of us, as in like in this case, a literal alien right, but that obviously
has very like real world implications, and so I'm very curious to see what this Gun movie is going to do with Lex Luthor, who I just learned is going to be played by Nicholas Holt, which is fascinating. I just saw a screenshot of him without the hair, which is good. Just just start him out, don't don't have a weird explanation for why he loses his hair. Just have him start out bald, because that's how we know Lex Luthor so good.
I will say that while I love Jesse Eisenberg as an actor, his version of Lex Luthor in it sat Nyer Movies is probably the one that was the most like hashtag not my so and so, and he makes.
That guy ranch.
Yeah, that's exactly what he was, just being a dime store joker, like it was just the jokers, a great villain, but the joker is a joker. Don't make the joker into but anyway. So I'm just hoping or something very very different from that.
I mean, for me, the performance to be will always be Michael Rosenbaum. Like I will never say Smallville is the best Superman story out there, but Rosenbaum's Lex is he's so good.
I'm about halfway into season one when I'm still not sure, like to what extent he's nefarious, or to what extent this is his origin story.
And he just kind of not at all.
Well, the thing is, so far, he's very convincing, is Lex. He's very convincing as a rich kid who's trying not to be so privileged.
What he's not doing.
He's not very convincing as a high school student because the actor's like thirty with the show, Well he's not.
He's in his twenties, which makes it especially weird that he meets a fourteen year old and is like, I'd like to buy you presents and invite you to my house.
Like he's just trying to be Doc Brown.
Yeah, yeah, that's fair.
Yeah, he has a lot of the trappings like here's okay, here's my thing for Lex Luthor. I want any Luther to be constantly swirling brandy in a snifterer while listening to Wagner, maybe lying on a tiger skin rug in front of a roaring fire like that, Like I want everything to smoking a cigar like that is what I want from any Luthor. And Michael Rosemom does that all the time, and he says everything in a really sinister way, but he's actually just a super nice guy who Clark
is terrible too. It's like a really bizarre dynamic.
Yeah, And for me, I mean it's funny if we're talking for about punching the ultimate heroes and stuff, the ultimate bad guys. My Lex is always gonna be Gene Hackman because that's who I grew up on. I think he's fantastic, But part of what I think is fascinating is he's an idiot in those Christian He's like, he's pretty good, but his main assistant is an utter bumbling nincom poop. Oh, what's his name?
Otis?
Otis, Yes, Otis, and of course all the stuff with him and his test maker. So I would love to see more of those side characters explored in great ways.
Well. And that's another thing that when they revamped Superman in nineteen eighty five, Prior to that, Lex had been a mad scientist. That was his thing. And actually the fact that he's got this weird real estate scheme in the movies is a little it's almost like a pre cursor to where he would go because it was not until post crisis, after nineteen eighty five that he became a businessman.
And like, oh interesting, okay.
Before that, like he was a mad scientist. He was a known criminal. He was always breaking out of jail. Everybody knew that he was a criminal, and they pivoted that. It was a really big change to make him this respected figure who like they're constantly resetting it. They're constantly having him be like, oh, I didn't do all those crimes. It was my clone. And they're like, oh, We're so sorry, mister Luthor. Please right take back your billions of dollars
and go back to your penthouse. And I think as every single year that has gone by since nineteen eighty five, that has only become more relevant.
And can we just shut.
The door on him in a mecha suit because those are not my favorite Lex Luthor's.
No.
No, I was about to say, like that's I don't think we've had a live action in Luthor suit right, the green and purple.
I don't think we have.
And that's what I would want out of this movie.
Again.
I think Nicholas Holt is a is a kind of actor who could carry that that physicality even though like a lot of it would be cgi like he's done. He was Beast in the X Men movie, so he's he's got some some pedigree that that would be more believable I think than a lot of other lutherers like Gene Hackman, you would never want to have in a suit.
And I think I could see James Gunn going for it because he likes the most ridiculous elements, like he really embraces those, which I fully support that. I love that he does that.
Yeah, and.
Well, I was gonna say, with what we know from the trailer slash cast, I don't think that there's another I mean, there are a couple of potentials, but it seems like Luthor is poised to be the final boss of this movie.
I mean, there is a dragon just putting it out there. There's a giant lizard breathing fire. But yes, it's probably a tool of the antagonist. But there was a dragon in the movie.
So isn't Max Lord. Yeah? Max Lord is in this Oh I saw that Max Lord paying him right.
That's my issue is that I don't think the way that James uses as Brother Sean that he would be a main villain.
No, I agree and also he was the main villain in Wonder Woman nineteen eighty four, and they might want to be like, let's not go back to that.
Well so soon I was gonna say, which is a criminal under using of Patropascal and I would have loved to see him recast in this.
But fair enough, Oh, I thought he was good, Like the movie was bad, but I.
Know what I mean.
It's like he was really good in a really bad movie. But even then his character was terribly written.
I mean, I'm also a Max Lord like this one woman Max Lord Defense Squad because he only became a villain okay, twenty one years ago, but so yes, it was a long time ago, but I knew him before and he was my friend. I'm still I'm still bitter about it.
That's fair.
So as we're exploring.
Luthor, and.
One thing I'll say on that Lex Luthor is and here's why I kind of don't like the mecha suit for me. And granted this, I did come up with the Christopher Reeves Gene Hackman but in which I think
one of that says a very strong theme. But also I think it comes out in a lot of the comics pre mecha suit is that kind of going back to you before Superman is the person who can out punch anyone, and so Lex Luthor, at least as the evil Genius, I loved as a villain because there's no question in the world that Superman can punch Lex Luthor in the face and win, like that's never a question.
The problem is that Lec Luther is always five steps ahead and a chess match where if he does just punch him, he won't stop the missiles that are gonna trigger this. They're gonna tgger whatever in the Rothstein machine that's gonna cause it all to rug Goldberg machine.
I'm sorry, it's gonna make it all happen.
And that therefore I love when he has to be Clark Kent the journalist to find out the secrets and figure it all out. And so that was just my argument for anti mechasuit is I really like the idea of Lex Luthor, who's always like, yeah, you can beat me up Superman, that's never in question. The problem is can you figure out my eight level complicated plan.
Okay, yeah, fair enough, but we'll.
See now we do have a number of other great characters that this has gone into that Riquanno, you wanted to jump into so take us away.
Well, this is an area where I was a little disappointed or wary of the trailer is that they show other members of the Justice League, presumably in this universe, and I don't I just want a good Superman film, and by showing us that, hey, there's Justice League, they're in this movie, it just feels like another step in DC trying to play catch up with Marvel, you know, after all their failed attempts in the past, saying well, we need to get our justice our Justice League movie
and our DCEU going quickly because we're still like several steps behind Marvel.
So I just wanted a.
Like simple Superman movie Lex Luthor, Lois Lane. But we get Guy Gardner going Green Lantern. There's a Hawk girl in the trailer. I think I saw mister Terrific, but I'm not seeing him listed in the cast for some reason. But in the cast I am seeing Rex Mason listed, So that like, that's a lot of secondary hero characters to have in a Superman movie. And I James Gunn in both DC and Marvel has done a good job
with ensemble casts. But I don't want a Superman movie to have an ensemble cast, like at least in the hero department. So so thoughts on.
That, Yeah, I am also wary for that same reason. I like, I mean, my thoughts are exactly the same as yours. I am excited. I want to see these characters. Like, I am a DC girl. I love the DC universe. I am so sad that so far DC has not really managed to build that kind of extended universe that allows us to see all these characters. Although to be fair, they definitely did on the CW. There were like billions of characters over there.
We literally did Crisis on Infinite Earth with yeah, the episode on five different television shows.
Yeah, and like which I mean, there's something about that which is like so perfect because it's how these events play out in comics where you have to like read all these different comics, and which goes back to what we started this episode talking about, which is that these stories maybe work better television then for movies. But so, like, I'm happy to see all of these characters. Like Guy Gardner is my favorite Green Lantern. I am thrilled that
he's here with his terrible hair. I think Nathan Fillion is having the most fun, Like, I'm so excited for this. I love Metamorpho, I love Hawk Girl, like I love Mister t Like. These are all characters I want to see, but I worry that they're gonna get in the way.
Yeah, so here's the one counter argument I'll make. And then I do want to talk about bad Haircut Guy because for me, as someone who the only real exposure Green Lantern I've had is to John Stewart, I was very surprised that it wasn't John Stewart. And to be clear, I'm talking about the John Stuart Green Lantern, not the Daily Show former host. But those game as a superhero would also be phenomenal. But I love the idea of the office rom con that you're talking about. That focus
is more on Clark. I've never really seen that on screen, so I don't have anything to compare it to. What I will say though, is that I think my favorite Superman stories that I have seen on screen, with exception of like you know, the Crystal Reeve that it's loved as a kid, is where it's Superman as a distinct contrast to most of.
The rest of the other heroes.
Like I really like a Justice League, where Batman is one extreme Superman is another, and most of the heroes are somewhere in the middle, with each one kind of you know, aligning with different ones depending on you know, where they are. Not that they're fighting with each other, but they have different philosophies of how to approach the ethical issues of superheroes, which, shocking enough, is what I
really care about. And I do really like the idea that, like, there's a moment that to me feels very Superman from the from the MCU, which is in the second Avengers movie when they're like getting ready to like finally take on the heads of Hydra and captain Americas's language when someone says like damn or something like that, and I feel like that that to me is very much a Superman kind of idea of like he's gonna be leading the heroes, He's gonna be helping the heroes, but he's
also like keeping them in line to some extent, especially when some of them are maybe wandering a little more into vigilante status or you know, self serving or whatever it is. So I think, to me, that's the idea of why I like having Superman, along with a lot of other heroes, But I agree with you that, like if all we have is a two and a half hour movie, which I wish we were back to two hour movies, but that's just the new length and you know, pain for the bladder on those of us were older,
but fair enough. Yeah, I think that that's the argument I would make about why I want Superman in a movie with other heroes, But I agree with you that I don't think it has to be this first movie.
I also, I get worried about that because I don't I'm just speculating here. I don't know where things are going. But all of the superheroes that we do see besides Superman have seemed to have some kind of uniform going on, and I I worry that they're going to be sort of like not the bad guys, but like really misguided, or they're like all working for the man, or they're like all government agents and Superman has to show them
the error of their ways, and they're like it. Like there's a scene where really it looks like Guy is arresting Clark or confronting him in some way, and for Guy, that's he's I'm willing to let him be a douchebag, because he is a douchebag, and that's part of why I like him. But I don't want to bring in a bunch of superheroes to be like, look at them, they're terrible compared to Superman, because I love all that's fair.
Yeah, to me, it's very much like they're all good guys, but they have different philosophies and Superman's maybe a bit more the boy scout than the rest of them, and that's different than he's doing it right.
They're all doing it wrong.
Yeah, So talk to me more about Guy Gardner, because, as I said, I was definitely surprised, a because I think John Stewart is the dominant one in a lot of the Justice League stuff, which I think it is one of the main things that people who haven't ord the comics are probably influenced of. But also because and naming Hollywood realities, John Stewart is a black man, and uh, I don't The character's blackness isn't like he's not black Panther by any means or Luke Cage, but his blackness
is a part of who the character is. And colic of movies continue not to be the biggest bastion of diversity in the world. So I'm not saying like they're wrong to not use the black character if they could have, but it definitely felt like a curious choice. When you know people are gonna ask you how diverse you are, and you had that option, Why do you think they did tell me more about Guy Gardner and why should be happy that they've made this choice.
Well, so, the Green Lanterns, for anybody not familiar with them, they're basically space cops. So there are literally thousands of them. Obviously, there aren't that many who are important characters, but there are.
The Green Lantern Core, right, the Green Lantern Core.
Yes, I think there are like nine of them from Earth these days, and that's not counting Alan Scott, the first Green Lantern, who isn't part of the core because the writers hadn't invented it yet. So this sort of iconic Green Lantern historically is Hal Jordan, who's been around since nineteen fifty nine, and he's the one that Ryan
Reynolds played in the Unfortunate to twenty eleven movie. Then Guy Gardner was brought in a few years after that as a very very minor character but sort of an alternate like if anything happened to how guy was there and he really developed a personality again during the eighties.
It all comes back to the eighties as sort of this like brash asshole, like he is a bully, and he's rude, and he's misogynistic and he's xenophobic and he hates comies and I'll never shut up about it and the whole he was a comic relief character, Like that was the point. It was a joke about like this kind of swaggering, macho male lead that was common at
the time. And then from that point the character gradually got more and more nuance added to him, and he's a much more complex character now, but he does have that very abrasive quality and he's he's funny. He's still best as a comic relief character. And I think that, more than anything else, is why James Gunn Cassen because James Gunn likes to do or Casson picked him because he likes to do comedy and he wanted to give his buddy Nathan a role and it was it fit,
that's right. John Stewart was introduced in nineteen seventy one and very specifically his creators, Dannie O'Neill and Neil Adams, wanted to introduce a black Green Lantern. They wanted to introduce a black hero. DC basically didn't have any black heroes, and then they very very quickly added like five of them between like sixty nine and seventy one, and John Stewart depending on how you count it, as their first actual black superhero because he's the first one to have
a code name and a costume. Yeah. So John Stewart became a much more prominent character thanks to the Justice League cartoon, where he was chosen because they wanted the cartoon to not be an all white cast, and he is. He became one of the best known characters. I'm certainly not saying he shouldn't have been in this movie. I will note that there is going to be The Green Lanterns TV show and he is one of the main
characters along with Hal. I think the choice was just made to use Guy Gardner for the comic relief, and they also have mister terrific Michael Holt in this movie, who is black, and I think, like, obviously black superheroes are not interchangeable, but I think that that was more of their life. You want to make sure this is not an all white lineup.
Well, there's gonna be more green, green lantern contact with John Stewart, as you said, having him be not here's the green lantern you're gonna care about going forward, but here's an imbecile that you're gonna have fun laughing at as part of the show. But it also introduces the idea that the green Lantern core exists. That makes atal sense.
Yeah, I know, Rick, you were yeah, Guy thing.
No, I'm I'm sold on Guy in this movie. I actually agree. I think I would rather have Guy Gardner in this movie than John Stewart for a lot of the reasons that you just said, Jessica, And if I could summarize it, it would be that I don't think Guy Gardner is a main character, whereas I think John
Stewart is a main character. He is gonna I think with all these things, like, we don't know if they're actually gonna get made, but I think Lanterns is looking good to get made because they have cast Aaron Pierre as John Stewart. Matthew. He's the He's the main actor in the revel Ridge movie that I've been telling you. So he's he is, like he's got that, he's got the swag to be John Stewart to be a main character, And if he were in this, I think I would
be very disappointed. Like I just want Guy Gardner to get punched by whatever the main bad person is in this and like have a bloody nose, and like Nathan Fillian can play that character perfectly.
Yes, Okay, that sounds great. I'm here for the hammer.
You know, come down, Matthew. This may sell you. The most famous iconic scene that Guy Gardner has ever experienced in his entire career is getting punched in the face by Batman.
It, I mean, that sounds perfect.
Then Guy Gardner, one punch.
Okay, there we go. There we go.
Yeah.
And like John Stewart has like some actual, very interesting emotional solo stories associated with him that I hope that the TV show would you utilize some of. It's also going to have Hal Jordan's so we'll have to see like what the balance is between those two, whether they're partners or whether they alternate their storylines and whatnot. But I I like Guy as a character. But I think of the four traditional Earth Green lanterns to me, like he's the least able to carry carry a story on his own.
Ye with the four.
With the fourth being gosh, I'm blank name Yeah, Kyle who you may be familiar with the term fridging that actually originated from his storyline where his girlfriend was killed by his opponent.
Got it put and placed in a fridge.
Yeah, her decapitated and her head placed there.
Oh no, no whole body.
Oh really, I've always heard that it's her head.
Okay, okay, it's yeah, well.
That either way. But how very edgy exactly.
Which I'll be honest, that's the thing. I love edginus in superheroes, but we've had it so much. I'm very okay with some rounded edges with my Superman this time around. And that sounds like maybe that's what we're gonna get.
So yeah, I think I think this is gonna be a very wholesome Superman.
M hm.
Again, like we've only seen bits and pieces, but David cornsweat the actor. I watched a TV show with him. I can't remember what it was called, but I literally was like, this guy should play Superman and then I like googled it and it's like, oh, he's already cast yep. But then, like, I think the thing that impressed me the most in this trailer for him specifically was his
Clark Kent scenes. Like he he did look the part of the bumbling, like unassuming guy, and I feel like they may have put him in a suit that's like too big for him, like intentionally to make him look smaller.
Oh that's really smart.
Yeah, and it just looks good. It makes him look smaller, and it makes him look less cool and less self assured.
Yeah.
I saw a quote from him where he was saying that part of his inspiration for the character's body language as Clark was his brother in law, who is six foot five and like big and is always trying to not be in the way, And it comes through so perfectly in those few scenes that we get. Well.
I like that because again, like this isn't even political, it's more cultural, but just placing it in the conversation, Like I think one of the ideas that's most debated right now in our culture, and it is essential to any conversation with superheroes is as essential that any conversation about superheroes is masculinity and are what are what does a mask?
And role model look like, and I, yeah, I'm really excited.
To have you know, the Superman often gets put on lists of like non toxic ideas of masculinity, you know, and that that kind of like, yes, I have all this size, but I'm not here to take up space and to claim my authority. I'm here to try and make space for others. Seems really important for that. I
want us to go too much longer. She've already were coming up on an hour, but Jessica, I do want to give you a chance to talk about one the name that I've not heard you say yet that I know is so essential, Lois Lane.
Really as just thinking that when you were talking about like masculinity and gender roles, I was like, we haven't talked about Lois. We really don't get a lot of her in the trailer. Like we see her, you know, looking at Clerk in the office and there's a bit with them flying and kissing, and that's great. I like it when she's looking at him in the office and kissing him. I do think that the casting is really good.
I think anybody who was playing her, it's Rachel Brosnahan from The Marvelous Missus Mazelle and anyone who can talk that fast. I mean, that's the that's the biggest hurdle to overcome with a Lois I I'm I am hopeful. I do think by and large, we tend to get pretty solid Lois is m hm in adaptations. More so, like sometimes the I think all the actors have been good across the board, both Clark and Lois. But I think the writing with Lois doesn't fall into the same
pitfalls that the writing for Clark does. So I I I feel good about this. I'm I'm excited. I I love Lois I you know, saying to somebody the other day. In the comic stories, the two characters who are always on the right side of history whenever, like the superheroes are fighting each other, like you're in a dystopian universe where superheroes are evil or outlaw or whatever, blah blah blah, any of these the two characters who are always on the right side of history, Green Arrow and Lois Lane.
It's not necessarily a thing that we've seen with adaptations of Green Arrow so far, so we want to talk about that. But like Lois Lane is in some ways even more than Superman, like a beacon of what is true and righteous, right, and I I hope she gets to be difficult and messy and eviscerate people who are getting in.
Her way and in a different way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I think that's so vital on it.
There was some other episode we've done, I remember which one, because we've had Jessica and talk about Superman a lot, for clearly very good reasons, because you're an authority and have so much great to say. But there's one in which you described Lois as I was saying, like there's lowest does lowest hit into like negative stereotypes of the damsel in distress? And I'm not gonna exactly quote you don't mind the s words. What you basically said was
that she's not a damsel in distress. She's just a person who already was a like damn the torpedoes, I'm gonna do what I think is right, and now has just developed this ridiculous sense of overconfidence of I don't care what stupid risks I take, because this guy in a cape is always gonna save me. So I'm going to do anything and everything to get the story, And who cares what happens, you know, and she's right, yeah, and.
Like that looked.
It can look like a damsel in distress if you're not actually paying attention. But it really is so different, and I hope that again this movie captures that attitude.
Yeah, I mean, there's the bit in I think it's might only be in the the Donner edit of Superman two. I can't remember where she jumps out the window because she's like, Superman will save me and he does. Yeah. And then there's also the scene where she dives into Niagara Falls, which I think is then final edit of them. I don't remember. She's jumping out of a lot of windows to prove a lot of things that happens on
My Adventures Superman too. It's it is not I mean, it is foolhardiness, and I kind of like that, but it was also absolute confidence both in her abilities, including her own mind, Like she knows that she's figured this out right, she knows that she's read Superman right, she knows what he will do and she's right. And it's also total faith in him right.
And it's not in the like oohho, my big shown boyfriend will save me. It's very much like yeah, oh yeah. My underlings are gonna make my coffee just right. My underlings are gonna drive me or I need to go, and minder things are gonna save me when I fall out window.
Jimmy gets her coffee and Clark catches her. Those are their jobs.
I love it.
And then the last thing is if you want to say, if we're gonna go into some bonus member content, we're gonna talk a little bit about some other stuff coming up next year. Jessica's just written an article over on book Riot that we will link you guys to and give you a chance to check out, but also to we'll talk about that also. Of course, if you want to become a member, it's only five dollars a month,
fifty five dollars a year. We're talking about all sorts of new things we're gonna start doing for members, including having your own bonus members bonus episodes, full episodes only for members. We're gonna start with the first one this month, so that's gonna be happening. Of course, you could add free episodes other kind of great things. But before we do that, Riki, first, any of the last things you want to say about this Superman trailer and this movie coming out.
Yeah, I scrolled way down the cast list and I found a character listed that Jessica mentioned earlier, eve test Maker, which is an interesting choice, a very Gunnion choice, if you will, because I think most this is Lex Luthor's female assistant, and I feel like most modern incarnations of luth Or have Mercy the bodyguard Valet sometimes like replacements Ceo a Lex Score. So using test Maker is an interesting choice and I'm interested to see how it plays out.
Yeah, I agree, it's a very James gun choice.
Yeah, because test Maker is like Mercy Is.
I think you listed test Maker isss Testmcker is much more like the nineteen fifties secretary type, ye, at least from what I know.
Yeah, And like they, she and Otis will often turn up in the comics these days, a sort of easter eggs. They're not really like characters who do a lot of stuff, but like you know, if Lex's barking orders at somebody off panel, it's one of them, or like they might be like where's the secret warehouse where Lex has the Doom's Day device? Oh, it's on Otis Street. Like there's a lot ofway references like that, but you can't see them in adaptations anymore.
And for me specifically, it's the she's listed, but I can't find a casting for a Mercy, so it's like it seemed that seems like a deliberate choice between the two.
Interesting.
Well, that'll be nice, because I mean, the main thing I know her from is the Christopher Reevedonnner movies, in which I would say she does not come out very well.
She instead, she's.
Like, oh, Superman's really cute, and my mother might I think she's not like an aunt in California who's gonna die in Lex Luthor's plan, And so she winds up betraying Lex to Superman and helps rescue him, and it's cute. But it also seems motivated a lot by the fact that you know, Christopher Reeves is a not bad looking guy, which I felt like, let's do a little more of the character. So yeah, that'd be fun. All right, Well, that thank you both so much. I've learned a lot, audience.
I hope you've learned a lot. We'd love to hear what you think. Let us know your thoughts for the COmON movie. We'll definitely have Jessica back when the movie comes out, but till then, thank you so much.
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